Messages

16

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Who Taught Magic In Zeal?

« on: February 23, 2005, 07:25:41 pm »

Yes, used to. That's why the one Enlightened One considers Crono & Co's magic primitive.

17

Chrono Compendium Discussion / The Long-Term Goals

« on: February 23, 2005, 03:44:26 pm »

That Lynx pic does look very Serge-ish.

18

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 23, 2005, 03:17:16 am »

Morality is an abstraction created by human society.  This concept does not apply to Lavos, an alien, any more than it does to a predatory animal.  Lavos never acted out malice, only to insure its survival and complete its reproductive cycle.  Lavos needed to destroy the earth in order to reproduce.

But that's only in a purely scientific universe, as in, there are no higher powers that shape the universe and set what good and evil is, such as gods.

CT has many indications that there are such higher powers. Spekkio, for one, states that he is the God of War. Another would be the Entity. There's a cathedral in Guardia, 600 AD. Crono's innate element is Heavenly. These imply a set good and evil.

The indications aren't limited to CT alone. CC has many such indications in the Elements. HolyLight, HolyHealing, Saints; on the darker side, HellSoul, HellBound, GrimReaper. There's also Pip's HeavenCalls or Hell'sFury, and Lynx's FeralCats.

My point: when gods and theology are involved, good and evil are more than just abstract human creations.

Also, since the Dragonians made the Elements, not the humans, this further indicates that higher powers exist in the CT/CC universe since both humans and reptites knew of them.

19

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Who Taught Magic In Zeal?

« on: February 22, 2005, 11:32:40 pm »

He meant Crono & Co's magic came from the planet, not the Enlightened Ones' magic. The Enlightened Ones' magic came from Lavos through the Mammon Machine.

Also, worth mentioning is that one of the Enlightened Ones refers to Crono & Co's magic as 'primitive'.

20

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 22, 2005, 10:24:50 pm »

Lavos needs to support himself, but by doing so I (as a human on earth) will be destroyed, so I choose to destroy Lavos.  I chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore I am evil.

I need to support myself by destroying Lavos, but by doing so Lavos will be destroyed, so Lavos chooses to destroy me. He chose the intentional destruction of another being - therefore he is evil.

yea - way to go razor's edge....

What part of destroying the world has to do with perfect evolution? Where is Lavos's need for the destruction of the world to protect himself? He has his perfect evolution before he destroys 1999 AD, so how about explaining why, exactly, that is needed for his survival?

While it's possible the humans were enough of a threat to him in 1999 AD that Lavos needed to destroy them for his own survival, you can't make that assumption, because we don't know nearly enough about that time period to be able to determine one way or the other.

But the TD couldn't free the dragons itself, it needed a way to destroy FATE. Controlling someone through the sword would seem like a good way to try and destroy FATE. I doubt the TD expected Serge & Co to do it for the TD.

Although, if the person who took the Masamune from Guardia is to blame, by proceeding to go around killing people and stuff, I suppose that could also have made the sword evil, especially if Masa and Mune were asleep. Of course, this would require that there is some overall definition of good and evil, for the Masamune to become the perversion of its former self that we see in CC to be the cause of one person.

I never said it could free the Dragons itself. It would have been a pretty short game if it could  

Maybe the reasoning behind the blood shed on the sword has something to do with it.

I never said you said it could free the Dragons itself. I'm just saying I think it would try to influence anything it can in that dimension to try and get something to destroy FATE. I doubt the TD was just sitting there hoping for a haphazard group of heroes to show up and do it for him.  

21

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 22, 2005, 07:41:24 pm »

But the TD couldn't free the dragons itself, it needed a way to destroy FATE. Controlling someone through the sword would seem like a good way to try and destroy FATE. I doubt the TD expected Serge & Co to do it for the TD.

Although, if the person who took the Masamune from Guardia is to blame, by proceeding to go around killing people and stuff, I suppose that could also have made the sword evil, especially if Masa and Mune were asleep. Of course, this would require that there is some overall definition of good and evil, for the Masamune to become the perversion of its former self that we see in CC to be the cause of one person.

22

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 22, 2005, 12:44:32 am »

The planet is not Lavos's body. Let us assume for a moment that the planet is a living organism itself ala FF7, or better yet, that the planet is the Entity. That makes Lavos a parasite living inside the planet, and, as with symbiotic relationships between different species, what's bad for the host is bad for everything that lives on the host. This makes Lavos evil from the planet's point of view. And, whether or not one considers the planet and Entity the same, from the Entity's point of view it seems Lavos is evil as well. My point is, the majority of creatures and beings consider Lavos evil. Not just from humans' point of view.

And scratching one's skin is not needless destruction of creatures. Considering the size of the planet, I'd say an earthquake equates to the planet scratching an itch. While there is death of organisms in an earthquake, it's not intentional.

Lavos bursts out of the ground, which can not be considered his body, and 'Rains fire down from the heavens!' That is intentional destruction, not scratching an itch.

And, unless for some strange reason you don't consider the original 2300 AD to be a dead or dying planet, then Lavos is indeed a sentient, evil parasite.

23

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Timeline & Dimensional Clarification

« on: February 22, 2005, 12:31:14 am »

Pff. Who needs verbs.

And GreyLensman, it's great. Although I wonder, since the events of CC do take place, even though no one remembers said events, wouldn't the unification of the dimensions take place at 1020 AD? Maybe I'm just missing something.

24

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 21, 2005, 02:57:22 pm »

arnt u guys in your arugment about masamunebeing evil or not forgeting that in CC radius frequently mentions the enemity of the sword ie the guy who was killed by it radius when he killed him probally went mad with power and considering the look of the sword due to masa and mune sleeping the lavos energy in it began to radiate helping drive radius mad with power and since it wasent contained by masa and mune the phisical form of the masa mune was warped the fact that it kept the same look though the colour changed is probally because masa and mune couldent be bothered changng it back and it suted the new swallow form of the masamune

Radius's view is skewed.

Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.

Thats like saying its wrong to kill anything for food, even if its to survive, as long as you are sentient.  Thats ridiculous - Lavos/TD only cares about its survival and the humans only care about their survival.  Taking this from both the human and neutral point of view: The weapons the humans make are not "good" they are simply used for that reason. At the same time, Lavos energy is not "evil", it is simply used for that reason. Again this from a human and neutral point of view.

This is from an anything living that isn't Lavos point of view. Everything Lavos did isn't necessarily evil, until he bursts outta the ground and destroys Zeal, and again when he destroyed the world in 1999 AD. Since he's sentient, he could have chose to share a symbiotic relationship with the Zealians, where the Zealians have magic because of Lavos, and Lavos gets his DNA. There are tons of examples of this in nature. For example, there are many different types of bacteria living on your skin. They get their food from the air and you, and you are protected from other, harmful, bacteria by these bacteria.

But Lavos chose to destroy the world, twice. Therefore he is evil, from every point of view, save maybe his own.

25

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 21, 2005, 02:21:27 pm »

Lavos is a parasite--that alone does not make him evil, but he's more than that. Lavos is a sentient parasite. While Lavos is not evil from his point of view, from the point of view of all living things, sentient or not, on the planet Lavos inhabits, Lavos is evil. A parasite is an organism which nourishes itself at the detriment and usually death of the host. Since Lavos is sentient, that means he's a parasite by choice, at least partially.

What? What does the Masamune have to do with Lavos energy? How would the DoT have anything to do with anything if it doesn't even really exist? It's in the DBT, so it shouldn't effect much of anything...

 


Except the Dragon God. Explain that one.

Yeah, didn't it turn out that the Dragon God was being controlled by the TD? Then it's definately plausible that the TD affected the Masamune through the energy stored in it from before Lavos became the TD.

26

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 20, 2005, 08:36:11 pm »

I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.

Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.

Well Queen Zeal was influenced by the power of Lavos - but wasnt controlled by him per say. After all, she did go to far with energy extraction via the Mammon Machine - but if Lavos was in control of her, that never would have happend. To say that Lavos energy or Lavos/Time Devourer is evil is a little ridiculous. From TD's point of view, a bunch of kids secretly influenced by the mastermind, Belthasar, are trying to kill him. yay points of view.

Yeah, but, a bunch of 'kids' are what killed Lavos in the first place, before becoming the TD. Do you think he'd forget something like that?

And if the Masamune wasn't effected by evil from the TD, then why did it become evil? Masa and Mune got bored so decided to make good people kill their friends? I'd like to know exactly how you propose the sword turned evil then.

And about Doreen 'catching' them, she could have meant that she caught them sleeping on the job.

27

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 20, 2005, 02:51:00 pm »

I think the key to the Masamune becoming corrupted doesn't deal with the power of the TD, but does involve the TD itself.

Masa and Mune were preventing the Lavos energy within the sword from being able to do anything, right? But after Lavos was destroyed, there would be no need to do that anymore, because with Lavos dead there's no one to use that energy to take over the sword, or so Masa and Mune thought; since they were containing this energy for over 12000 years, they decide to take a nap. But they didn't know about the TD. So now, the Lavos energy within the Masamune is free to wreak havoc due to the TD's influence, and Masa and Mune are asleep, and probably staying asleep because of the TD as well.

28

Time, Space, and Dimensions / There an easy answer to this?

« on: February 19, 2005, 12:18:44 am »

Time Traveler's Immunity is simply this--someone who travels through time is from then on immune to changes that affect their own life--for example...let's say some guy named Jim goes back in time 10 years and kills the 10-years-younger Jim. Then Jim goes back to his own time. To everyone there, Jim has been dead for 10 years, but Jim still has all of his memories, including the ones from the past 10 years, even though to everyone else Jim has been dead for 10 years.

In the same way, Marle goes to the past with Crono & Co, and something they do changes the future in a way where Schala's pendant is not passed down the Guardia line--in 1000 AD, no one recognizes Marle's pendant except for Crono & Co and Melchior.

That's why, for the sealed boxes, if you open them in 1000 AD, and then go back to 600 AD and open them again, there's no paradox, Crono & Co keep all of their equipment, no matter what they do to the timeline.

29

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 18, 2005, 11:49:25 pm »

Perhaps the legend is connected not exactly with Magus, but with Lavos. I think this is why Magus expects the Masamune to help him defeat Lavos.

Possibly, because it wouldn't make sense for it to be literally connected to Magus. But if Magus thought the Masamune would help him against Lavos, then wouldn't he have taken the pieces of the Masamune after it broke? Of course, his plan for attacking Cyrus and Glenn could have been to get the Masamune in the first place, but after it broke, could've decided it would be useless broken.

If Magus wanted the Masamune to use against Lavos, though, then it would make sense to take the broken Masamune to try and find a way to use it, even though it is broke.

even through the bad grammer

The irony is killing me. It's spelled grammar.  

30

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 18, 2005, 06:17:52 pm »

Okay, Razor you are making sense to me now. I just put everything together in my head. I forgot that in the legend that only the Hero can weild the Masamune, so when Frog finshed up at Cyrus's grave he shows that he is the Hero.

The only question I have left is why was the legend directed at Magus? That is the only thing that doesn't make any sense to me.

The thing about the legend is that we don't know what the legend actually says about the sword. We just know that there is a legend, but there isn't a single person in 600 AD who tells you what the legend actually is. But the thing about legend is that you follow legend back far enough and you'll eventually find some truth. So, if we follow back what we know about the Masamune, it was made in Zeal by Melchior, and its purpose was to destroy the Mammon Machine. So if some of the Zealians who survived the fall of Zeal knew about the Masamune, then knowledge of it could be handed down til' it became the legend that we hear of. But, like I said, we don't know what the legend actually is.

Why the legend would pertain to Magus, I don't know--maybe the legend says a powerful Mystic, or powerful wizard, and the people just assumed it meant Magus.

I'm gonna see if I can find the NPC quotes about the Masamune, I'll post them later tonight if I do.