Show Posts
This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.
91
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Marle's Disappearence.
« on: September 24, 2008, 11:01:20 am »
Again, a double post that I apologize for, but I think I've come up with a little more concrete explanation of why both Marle and Chronopolis can be subject to the Grandfather Paradox.
Let's start with what we know - Chronopolis. The important fact is that is was pulled back by Lavos. The City did not travel back into the past, it was pulled to a destination.
If you throw a lasso around an object and start to pull it, where will it end up? It will end up exactly where you are standing. We know that, in the Chrono series (with the exception of the dimensional split in Cross), one timeline is all that exists at any given time. Let's call the timeline that exists Timeline A. When a normal Time Traveler goes back into the past, he/she creates a new timeline from that point onward. Let's call that Timeline B.
Now, in 12000 BC, Lavos exists in Timeline A. In 2400 AD, Chronopolis also exists in Timeline A. When the Time Crash occurs, Lavos (in timeline A) pulls Chronopolis back. But, since Lavos exists in Timeline A, it can only pull Chronopolis to Timeline A. No Timeline B is created, because Lavos can only pull something to itself, not into a new timeline (refer back to the simple lasso example).
So, we have a different form of Time Travel. Something was introduced into the past, but a new timeline was not created. Therefore, the future of Timeline A will be different, but the former future has NOT been discarded to the DBT, since a new timeline was not created! It's as if the future of Timeline A still exists, but is being overwritten. Since the future where Chronopolis is built still exists in 1010 AD, Serge's survival effectively overwrites that future. The new future of Timeline A doesn't include Chronopolis' construction. Since there is now no Chronopolis in Timeline A for Lavos to pull back, the Grandfather Paradox kicks in. It was only possible because all of this occured in the same timeline, as no new timeline was created with the "pull" effect Lavos used.
Let's start with what we know - Chronopolis. The important fact is that is was pulled back by Lavos. The City did not travel back into the past, it was pulled to a destination.
If you throw a lasso around an object and start to pull it, where will it end up? It will end up exactly where you are standing. We know that, in the Chrono series (with the exception of the dimensional split in Cross), one timeline is all that exists at any given time. Let's call the timeline that exists Timeline A. When a normal Time Traveler goes back into the past, he/she creates a new timeline from that point onward. Let's call that Timeline B.
Now, in 12000 BC, Lavos exists in Timeline A. In 2400 AD, Chronopolis also exists in Timeline A. When the Time Crash occurs, Lavos (in timeline A) pulls Chronopolis back. But, since Lavos exists in Timeline A, it can only pull Chronopolis to Timeline A. No Timeline B is created, because Lavos can only pull something to itself, not into a new timeline (refer back to the simple lasso example).
So, we have a different form of Time Travel. Something was introduced into the past, but a new timeline was not created. Therefore, the future of Timeline A will be different, but the former future has NOT been discarded to the DBT, since a new timeline was not created! It's as if the future of Timeline A still exists, but is being overwritten. Since the future where Chronopolis is built still exists in 1010 AD, Serge's survival effectively overwrites that future. The new future of Timeline A doesn't include Chronopolis' construction. Since there is now no Chronopolis in Timeline A for Lavos to pull back, the Grandfather Paradox kicks in. It was only possible because all of this occured in the same timeline, as no new timeline was created with the "pull" effect Lavos used.
92
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Marle's Disappearence.
« on: September 18, 2008, 02:13:48 pm »
Logically then, if Frog made a decission that changed time (a big if, mind you, but one I'm happy with), then that decission would have had to have been influenced and finallized by Lucca (possibly just her presence).
That I agree with. However, do you see, by using that logic, that it is Lucca's appearance that actually changes time, not Frog's decision? Similarly, it is Marle's appearance that changes Frog's mind, not Frog himself. All I'm saying is that, Frog's decision may be the catalyst for Marle disappearing, but Marle/Crono/Lucca's appearances are the catalyst of Frog's decision.
Generally, time changes when an action takes place (Lavos isn't defeated merely because Crono & Co decide that they will defeat him). However, given that in CC we are informed that a 50/50 chance of an event happening can split dimensions, I am inclined to suppose that probability influences whether or not an action will change time. Through most the entire game, the probability that Crono & Co will defeat Lavos is significantly less than 50%, so time doesn't change. But if Frog made a decission to elope with Leene, and if such a decission was 51%+ likely to be successful in implimentation, then time would change. But such an idea is heresy, given what we know about time in the games.
You're right that, in CT, Lavos is not defeated just because Crono & Co. decide to do it, but I don't think probability has anything to do with it either. Once Crono & Co. decide to embark on their quest, I think that there is a 100% chance they will succeed. We know this because we know how the ending of the game turns out. However, even though there is a 100% chance, Lavos does not disappear in the future. The reason is the same reason as above with Frog/Lucca. The only thing that can change the timeline is an instance of Time Travel into the past, introduction of somthing new and its subsequent effect. Just as the timeline above can't change until Lucca appears, the timeline including the planet's destruction can't be changed until Crono & Co. appear in 12000 BC the final time before fighting Lavos. As soon as Crono & Co. step out of that gate that final time in 12000 BC, the future is changed. Note that the future changes not at the moment they defeat Lavos, but as soon as they arrive at the time in which they WILL defeat Lavos. If Crono would've looked into a crystal ball the second he walked out of that gate (before defeating Lavos), he would've seen a bright and happy future.
Unfortunately, pinning down when the event happened that made Marle cease to exist is only half a solution. There is still the matter of why she disappeared at all.
Yes, there is. Check out my newly formed theory above, which I'm going to start calling "The Mini-Time-Crash Theory." This, combined with your theory about Frog deciding to elope with Leene could go a long way to explaining Marle's disappearance fully, since it allows her to be subject to the Grandfather Paradox.
Actually, now that I think about it, the "Mini-Time-Crash Theory" could also explain how Serge's existence causes the Dead Sea to exist even if Crono defeated Lavos in 12000 BC. Let's see if I can articulate this...
Facts: Home World and Another World have the same past up to 1010 AD. Therefore, Chronopolis existed in 12000 BC in both worlds, after being pulled back at the Time Crash. In fact, Chronopolis exists in all time periods simultaneously from 12000 BC forward in Another World, and it is replaced by the Dead Sea in Home World when Serge, the Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, survives.
Effect of the Mini-Time Crash Theory: Chronopolis can be a subject of the Grandfather Paradox, due to the method of Time Travel - something in the past causing the Time Travel vs. something in the present.
Resolution: Serge being deemed the Aribter locks FATE out of the Frozen Flame. In 12000 BC, Crono & Co. see Chronopolis and Dinopolis appear thanks to the Time Crash, and want to investigate them (originally, this happens in the past of both dimensions, since they both have the same past up to 1010 AD). FATE is able to preserve the history it knows (just like Miguel says it does) and prevent Crono & Co. from investigating, however, since Serge is killed by Wazuki in Another World and it re-gains access to the Flame. However, once the split occurs in Home World and Serge survives, FATE never re-gains access. Therefore, FATE is powerless and cannot prevent Crono & Co. from investigating Chronopolis/Dinopolis. During the investigation, something happens to Crono & Co., (they die in the war, get trapped in the Sea of Eden, anything) and they are prevented from killing Lavos. The ruined timeline comes back into existence, and Chronopolis is never created in 2400 AD, Home World. Since it was never created, it cannot be pulled back, and the Grandfather Paradox takes effect. Just as Marle disappeared, Chronopolis disappears, leaving the Dead Sea.
........ does that make sense? My head hurts now.....
93
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Marle's Disappearence.
« on: September 17, 2008, 11:13:14 pm »
Yeah, I'll grant you that it is a bit complicated...
Although, I wonder if Lavos would know what pulling Marle back will accomplish.... he doesn't seem to know what pulling Chronopolis back will do. He just happened to be awake at a time when Chronopolis was exposed, so he yanked it. He may have been trying to stop Crono & Co., but if he was, it didn't work. Could be the same with Marle. Magus woke him up, and he noticed this girl from the future exposed, so he decided to yank her back to cause some havoc and maybe throw Magus off so he could sleep longer. In fact, if Belthasar figured that out, maybe that's how he knew Lavos would yank back Chronopolis if it was exposed.... heck, the whole Counter Time Experiment could've been just a huge Telepod that he had someone step onto with the Frozen Flame instead of the Pendant (ok, that's really a stretch).
It's still a longshot theory, but it works to fill in some holes within the series, and kinda does make sense. One thing it does that I really like is it makes Lucca's assumption about the Grandfather Paradox correct. I hated thinking that Lucca was just wrong - she's the brains of every operation for the whole game and just doesn't seem like the type to be wrong about something. It also not only explains why Marle disappeared, but why the Telepod threw her back to 600 instead of any other time period, and goes some way to explaining what happened with the Telepod altogether.
I can at least use this logic to support the theory:
What are the two irregular instances of Time Travel in the series? Marle to 600 AD and the Time Crash
How are they similar? Both were sent to the past as a result of a scientific "accident", and the subject of both disappear due to some new event in the past
To what eras were they transported? 600 AD and 12000 BC, respectively
What is similar about those two eras? They are the only two eras we know of in which someone awakened Lavos, and we know Lavos pulled Chronopolis back during the Time Crash.
Can it be just coincidence then that the only other real example of irregular Time Travel in the games was caused by a scientific accident, AND sent the victim to the only other era in which we know Lavos to have been awoken? And the victim happened to be the only person (we know of) on the planet in possession of something connected to Lavos?
Yes, Lavos pulled Chronopolis back through the Frozen Flame, with which it had a connection. I believe Lavos could've pulled Marle through the Pendant, which was made to control the Mammon Machine, which also had a connection with Lavos, and the Pendant seemed to be the cause of the Telepod malfunction. (the only problem with that is that Marle leaves the pendant when she warps, but I suppose it could've already served its purpose)
Also, as a side, I'm suggesting the only reason he could pull Marle through time is because she was exposed thanks to the Telepod malfunction and the Pendant. Leene was not exposed in time, nor did she have anything connecting her to Lavos that we know of, unless she also had the Pendant.
Although, I wonder if Lavos would know what pulling Marle back will accomplish.... he doesn't seem to know what pulling Chronopolis back will do. He just happened to be awake at a time when Chronopolis was exposed, so he yanked it. He may have been trying to stop Crono & Co., but if he was, it didn't work. Could be the same with Marle. Magus woke him up, and he noticed this girl from the future exposed, so he decided to yank her back to cause some havoc and maybe throw Magus off so he could sleep longer. In fact, if Belthasar figured that out, maybe that's how he knew Lavos would yank back Chronopolis if it was exposed.... heck, the whole Counter Time Experiment could've been just a huge Telepod that he had someone step onto with the Frozen Flame instead of the Pendant (ok, that's really a stretch).
It's still a longshot theory, but it works to fill in some holes within the series, and kinda does make sense. One thing it does that I really like is it makes Lucca's assumption about the Grandfather Paradox correct. I hated thinking that Lucca was just wrong - she's the brains of every operation for the whole game and just doesn't seem like the type to be wrong about something. It also not only explains why Marle disappeared, but why the Telepod threw her back to 600 instead of any other time period, and goes some way to explaining what happened with the Telepod altogether.
I can at least use this logic to support the theory:
What are the two irregular instances of Time Travel in the series? Marle to 600 AD and the Time Crash
How are they similar? Both were sent to the past as a result of a scientific "accident", and the subject of both disappear due to some new event in the past
To what eras were they transported? 600 AD and 12000 BC, respectively
What is similar about those two eras? They are the only two eras we know of in which someone awakened Lavos, and we know Lavos pulled Chronopolis back during the Time Crash.
Can it be just coincidence then that the only other real example of irregular Time Travel in the games was caused by a scientific accident, AND sent the victim to the only other era in which we know Lavos to have been awoken? And the victim happened to be the only person (we know of) on the planet in possession of something connected to Lavos?
Yes, Lavos pulled Chronopolis back through the Frozen Flame, with which it had a connection. I believe Lavos could've pulled Marle through the Pendant, which was made to control the Mammon Machine, which also had a connection with Lavos, and the Pendant seemed to be the cause of the Telepod malfunction. (the only problem with that is that Marle leaves the pendant when she warps, but I suppose it could've already served its purpose)
Also, as a side, I'm suggesting the only reason he could pull Marle through time is because she was exposed thanks to the Telepod malfunction and the Pendant. Leene was not exposed in time, nor did she have anything connecting her to Lavos that we know of, unless she also had the Pendant.
94
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Marle's Disappearence.
« on: September 17, 2008, 10:49:56 am »
It might be, but do we really know if it's that complicated for Lavos to do? I mean, if Marle is exposed, is it that difficult to warp her back? We know he's capable of warping back an entire city 14400 years. How hard can it be to warp one girl back 400 years?
Plus, if you're Lavos and you're being summoned, do you know why? Lavos could be thinking "Anything with enough power to summon me might be a threat (heck, I haven't been summoned for 12,600 years) - instead of fighting him, let's just stop the summoning altogether."
Plus, if you're Lavos and you're being summoned, do you know why? Lavos could be thinking "Anything with enough power to summon me might be a threat (heck, I haven't been summoned for 12,600 years) - instead of fighting him, let's just stop the summoning altogether."
95
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Marle's Disappearence.
« on: September 17, 2008, 08:07:25 am »
Sorry for the double-post, but I'm not quite done thinking about this. I don't really like my "The Entity Did It" response, so I'm gonna try a "Lavos did it" response, based on a bit more evidence, though it's still pretty far out there....
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to assume Marle's Disappearance happens because she is NOT subject to TTI, and the Grandfather Paradox actually does take effect (or some form of it, be it Frog/Leene eloping or Leene dying or whatever). So, the question now becomes "Why is Marle not subject to TTI?"
To explain that, I'll look at the only other form of Time Travel in the series that does not seem to be subject to TTI - the Time Crash. We know that Lavos pulls Chronopolis 14400 years back in time, they win a war, and that 13010 years later, Serge is saved and (in Home World) Chronopolis changes into the Dead Sea, because Home World's future will be ruined. However, if Chronopolis was subject to TTI, it should not change into the Dead Sea - it should be immune to future changes in the timeline. It's been said that Chronopolis has temporal links with all time periods, and thus will reflect it's future state - I don't know if I buy that. So, why is Chronopolis not subject to TTI?
GrayLensman brings up a lot of points in Salt for the Dead Sea that explain how the Time Crash is different from normal Time Travel, but I'll suggest another reason. We know that Lavos, from the past, pulled Chronopolis back. Therefore, the Time Travel in the Time Crash was caused by something in the past, whereas normal Time Travel is caused by something in the present. Add in the fact that the factor causing it is Lavos (a being capable of creating its own pocket dimension), and you've got some large irregularities. Perhaps this is why Chronopolis/Sea of Eden/Dead Sea is not subject to TTI in Home World, and the Dead Sea exists because of a version of the Grandfather Paradox - meaning that, since Home World will be destroyed, Chronopolis will not be able to cause the Time Crash, won't be able to go back in time, etc.
How does all of that relate to Marle disappearing? Well, that depends on how she Time Traveled in the first place. We know the pendant reacted with the Telepod, causing the gate to send her back in time. Of course, we don't know anything about that reaction, or why it created a gate. Therefore, I postulate that it did not create a gate at all, but rather the reaction exposed Marle throughout time - much like the Time Crash exposed Chronopolis. With Marle exposed, something was able to suck her back through time. We know that Chronopolis was sucked back to 12000 BC when Lavos was awakened, and he sucked it back to disrupt Crono. I suggest he did the same thing to Marle, and he did it to disrupt Magus.
We know that, in 600 AD, Magus was attempting to gain power to summon Lavos and avenge Schala. We also know that Leene had been kidnapped. With the queen kidnapped, Magus could divert his attention from Guardia and the war, and worry about summoning Lavos. Maybe Magus had succeeded in awakening Lavos in 600 AD and Lavos, who didn't feel he was powerful enough to come to the surface (or just didn't feel like coming and killing Magus), notices Marle is exposed through time. Therefore, he creates a gate (which he can do, since his pocket dimension is connected to all eras through a wormhole) and sucks Marle back to 600 AD. She is found, Guardia calls off the search, and refocuses their efforts on Magus. Magus is then disrupted from summoning Lavos, gets ticked off, and sends Ozzie out with some troops to occupy Guardia so he can eventually begin the summoning again. Since Marle was sucked back in time by Lavos from the past, just like Chronopolis, she is not subject to TTI, and therefore disappears when Lucca's appearance causes Leene not to have children.
I guess there are quite a few assumptions, but at least this attempts to explain why TTI is not in effect for both of these occurences.....
For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to assume Marle's Disappearance happens because she is NOT subject to TTI, and the Grandfather Paradox actually does take effect (or some form of it, be it Frog/Leene eloping or Leene dying or whatever). So, the question now becomes "Why is Marle not subject to TTI?"
To explain that, I'll look at the only other form of Time Travel in the series that does not seem to be subject to TTI - the Time Crash. We know that Lavos pulls Chronopolis 14400 years back in time, they win a war, and that 13010 years later, Serge is saved and (in Home World) Chronopolis changes into the Dead Sea, because Home World's future will be ruined. However, if Chronopolis was subject to TTI, it should not change into the Dead Sea - it should be immune to future changes in the timeline. It's been said that Chronopolis has temporal links with all time periods, and thus will reflect it's future state - I don't know if I buy that. So, why is Chronopolis not subject to TTI?
GrayLensman brings up a lot of points in Salt for the Dead Sea that explain how the Time Crash is different from normal Time Travel, but I'll suggest another reason. We know that Lavos, from the past, pulled Chronopolis back. Therefore, the Time Travel in the Time Crash was caused by something in the past, whereas normal Time Travel is caused by something in the present. Add in the fact that the factor causing it is Lavos (a being capable of creating its own pocket dimension), and you've got some large irregularities. Perhaps this is why Chronopolis/Sea of Eden/Dead Sea is not subject to TTI in Home World, and the Dead Sea exists because of a version of the Grandfather Paradox - meaning that, since Home World will be destroyed, Chronopolis will not be able to cause the Time Crash, won't be able to go back in time, etc.
How does all of that relate to Marle disappearing? Well, that depends on how she Time Traveled in the first place. We know the pendant reacted with the Telepod, causing the gate to send her back in time. Of course, we don't know anything about that reaction, or why it created a gate. Therefore, I postulate that it did not create a gate at all, but rather the reaction exposed Marle throughout time - much like the Time Crash exposed Chronopolis. With Marle exposed, something was able to suck her back through time. We know that Chronopolis was sucked back to 12000 BC when Lavos was awakened, and he sucked it back to disrupt Crono. I suggest he did the same thing to Marle, and he did it to disrupt Magus.
We know that, in 600 AD, Magus was attempting to gain power to summon Lavos and avenge Schala. We also know that Leene had been kidnapped. With the queen kidnapped, Magus could divert his attention from Guardia and the war, and worry about summoning Lavos. Maybe Magus had succeeded in awakening Lavos in 600 AD and Lavos, who didn't feel he was powerful enough to come to the surface (or just didn't feel like coming and killing Magus), notices Marle is exposed through time. Therefore, he creates a gate (which he can do, since his pocket dimension is connected to all eras through a wormhole) and sucks Marle back to 600 AD. She is found, Guardia calls off the search, and refocuses their efforts on Magus. Magus is then disrupted from summoning Lavos, gets ticked off, and sends Ozzie out with some troops to occupy Guardia so he can eventually begin the summoning again. Since Marle was sucked back in time by Lavos from the past, just like Chronopolis, she is not subject to TTI, and therefore disappears when Lucca's appearance causes Leene not to have children.
I guess there are quite a few assumptions, but at least this attempts to explain why TTI is not in effect for both of these occurences.....
96
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Marle's Disappearence.
« on: September 10, 2008, 05:28:52 pm »
Yes, good call - I really do need to play CT again. I had it in my head that Crono was thrown in jail in 600 AD due to the Queen, who was just found, disappearing. You're correct, Crono is thrown in jail when he gets back for abducting Marle. Marle's disappearance had nothing to do with it.
After you say that, it does seem that the event that caused Marle's disappearance had to happen after Lucca arrived. As for Frog's decision though, I don't think that he has to make the decision in order for time to change. That decision is already predetermined for him as soon as Marle is introduced into the era. In other words, the future knows he will make that decision before he makes it. That means, if Marle's disappearance is based on that, she should disappear immediately, by my thinking, since her presence is what will eventually cause Frog to come to that decision. And since Frog's decision is based on Marle being there, not Crono or Lucca, it couldn't have caused Marle's disappearance, since Marle warped before Lucca did. In easier terms:
The event that causes Marle's disappearance happend after Lucca warps.
Frog's decision was based on Marle's warp.
Marle's warp was before Lucca's warp.
Therefore, Frog's decision could not have caused Marle's disappearance.
I guess it depends on how you look at time. Does time change as someone or something makes a concious decision? Or does time change as soon as something is introduced that will eventually cause that decision?
So, I'm trying to remember what happened from the time Lucca arrived in 600 to Marle's disappearance. One significant thing I can think of is that Lucca created, and time traveled with, a Gate Key. The two previous travels through time were by the pendant reacting with the Telepod. Could time travel through use of the Gate Key have some effect on Marle? I'll have to ponder that.
After you say that, it does seem that the event that caused Marle's disappearance had to happen after Lucca arrived. As for Frog's decision though, I don't think that he has to make the decision in order for time to change. That decision is already predetermined for him as soon as Marle is introduced into the era. In other words, the future knows he will make that decision before he makes it. That means, if Marle's disappearance is based on that, she should disappear immediately, by my thinking, since her presence is what will eventually cause Frog to come to that decision. And since Frog's decision is based on Marle being there, not Crono or Lucca, it couldn't have caused Marle's disappearance, since Marle warped before Lucca did. In easier terms:
The event that causes Marle's disappearance happend after Lucca warps.
Frog's decision was based on Marle's warp.
Marle's warp was before Lucca's warp.
Therefore, Frog's decision could not have caused Marle's disappearance.
I guess it depends on how you look at time. Does time change as someone or something makes a concious decision? Or does time change as soon as something is introduced that will eventually cause that decision?
So, I'm trying to remember what happened from the time Lucca arrived in 600 to Marle's disappearance. One significant thing I can think of is that Lucca created, and time traveled with, a Gate Key. The two previous travels through time were by the pendant reacting with the Telepod. Could time travel through use of the Gate Key have some effect on Marle? I'll have to ponder that.
97
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Marle's Disappearence.
« on: September 10, 2008, 12:16:19 pm »Problem there is that if Leene was eventually found, Marle shouldn't have disappeared at all. The game thus nicely disproves that solution.
Now, logically, Marle being mistaken for Leene was not what caused her demise (indeed, by the grandfather paradox, that shouldn't have happened at all until Leene was killed anywho). If that was enough to merit her ceasing to exist, she would have done so on the spot. Some other event must have occurred to cause her to cease to exist (the search being called off, a particular person who would have found her being notified of the cessation of searchation, etc). Given that Marle would only disappear if Leene would not produce royal children as per the original timeline (note; even if Leene produced non-royal children only, that most likely would have killed off Marle), and that changes to the timeline should happen instantly, and that Lucca was no effected by any such change, whatever caused her to cease to exist must have occurred after Lucca had traveled through the gate.
Lucca just happened to misidentify the cause of Marle's disappearance. Makes sense, since she wasn't even there to observe the event.
Personally, my vote goes to Frog being the one who caused Marle to disappear and reappear, based on decisions he was making (to elope or not to elope, that is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles, and by opposing end them?)
The problem with the first bold part is that Marle disappears after Crono travels, but before Lucca does. Lucca doesn't arrive in 600 AD until after Crono is already in jail. Therefore, whatever caused Marle to disappear had to happen after Crono traveled, but before Lucca.
I disagree with the second bold part entirely. I don't think Frog's decisions can influence the future at all. Once Marle travels, the future is set in stone: in the original timeline, Frog made certain decisions. The only thing that changes is Marle being present. Her presence either will either affect Frog's decisions, or they won't. And the effect they will or won't have should happen instantaneously, changing the future immediately. I don't think Frog really has any say in the matter. So, if Marle's disappearance was based on Frog's new future decisions, she should've disappeared on the spot as well. Also, that would still attribute Marle's disappearance to the Grandfather Paradox, which we don't want to do.
Frog deciding to elope -> Leene has no kids (or has frog kids) -> no Marle is still a version of the Grandfather Paradox, even though Leene is not killed. The point is that Marle should not disappear for that reason, since her presence in 600 AD is protected by TTI.
My thought on it is that the Entity caused Marle to disappear. Marle's disappearance is what gets Crono thrown in jail. Crono's conviction is what gets the Kingdom of Guardia (or the Chancellor/Yakra) mad at him. Being mad at Crono is what gets them chased into the forest. Being chased into the forest is how they find the gate to 2300 AD. Taking the gate to 2300 AD is how they decide to save the world.
So, the planet made Marle disappear, to lead Crono and co. on a quest to save the world.
98
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Marle's Disappearence.
« on: September 09, 2008, 03:58:27 pm »
What concerns me most about Marle and the beginning of Chrono Trigger isn't Marle's disappearance at all, but the way in which it was prevented.
We know, based on the theories and conclusions drawn here, that when someone goes back in time, a new timeline is created instantly as soon as the time-traveler in introduced into the past. At the beginning of Trigger, we know that Crono, Marle and Lucca all go back to 600 AD, and history is changed. However, they don't all go back at the same time.
Marle is the first to go back to 600 AD. So, according to our knowledge, as soon as she arrives there, a new timeline should be created instantaneously. The old future of that timeline is discarded into the DBT, and a new future begins from that point. However, when we're playing the game, that doesn't happen (or does it?.... see below). The story of Trigger tells us that, when Marle appeared in 600 AD, they found her, mistook her for the Queen, and the search for Leene was called off. Leene supposedly dies, and thus Marle shouldn't exist in the NEW future. Without Marle existing in the NEW future, Crono doesn't meet her at the fair, Marle isn't there to travel back in time, etc. etc. My point is that the timeline should be discarded BEFORE CRONO GOES INTO THE TELEPOD TO SAVE MARLE, since Marle's travel makes a new timeline, and the same could be said about Lucca as well, since she traveled after both of them.
NOTE: I am not suggesting the Grandfather Paradox, nor an infinite loop. I am merely suggesting that only Crono and Lucca would've been prevented from going back in time, not Marle. Marle is preserved in 600 AD no matter what happens in the new future, even if she isn't born, because she caused the new timeline to be created and the old to be discarded. However, without Marle's influence in the new timeline, Crono and Lucca would not need to travel back to get her.
However, we know that this does not happen in Trigger. Crono picks up the pendant like nothing happened to the timeline, and jumps in to save Marle. Furthermore, Lucca comes back even later to save Crono and Marle. There is no indication of a new timeline being created - nothing in the present seems to change as soon as Marle travels back.
That leaves two solutions. Solution #1 would be that, what we see of Crono picking up the pendant and going after Marle is actually occuring IN THE DARKNESS BEYOND TIME. As soon as Marle get's back to 600 AD, the old future from that point on is discarded to the DBT. However, in that timeline, Crono decides to travel back to 600 AD. He leaves the DBT and ends up in 600AD to re-write history yet again. Lucca would have to do the same thing. However, that means that beings from the DBT could travel into the real world, which makes no sense because beings in the DBT don't even exist.
Solution #2, which I think is much better, is that Marle's travel back in time does not affect her existence in the future. In other words, what I said should happen above when Marle travels back happens. A new timeline is created instantly, and it is created right around Crono and Lucca in 1000 AD, but of course they don't realize it. We actually watch it happen in the game, but we don't realize it either. The reason we don't realize it is that it doesn't change anything that we can see. In the new future after Marle appears in 600 AD, Leene is still found, and she still has children, and Marle is still born in 986 AD or so, and still runs into Crono, etc. I believe that this has to be the case, or else Crono and Lucca would have no reason to travel back to 600 AD to save Marle.
So, I guess all I'm really saying is that Leene would've been found regardless of anything Crono, Frog or Lucca did. She has to be, else Crono and Lucca would never travel back in time, even though Marle would.
We know, based on the theories and conclusions drawn here, that when someone goes back in time, a new timeline is created instantly as soon as the time-traveler in introduced into the past. At the beginning of Trigger, we know that Crono, Marle and Lucca all go back to 600 AD, and history is changed. However, they don't all go back at the same time.
Marle is the first to go back to 600 AD. So, according to our knowledge, as soon as she arrives there, a new timeline should be created instantaneously. The old future of that timeline is discarded into the DBT, and a new future begins from that point. However, when we're playing the game, that doesn't happen (or does it?.... see below). The story of Trigger tells us that, when Marle appeared in 600 AD, they found her, mistook her for the Queen, and the search for Leene was called off. Leene supposedly dies, and thus Marle shouldn't exist in the NEW future. Without Marle existing in the NEW future, Crono doesn't meet her at the fair, Marle isn't there to travel back in time, etc. etc. My point is that the timeline should be discarded BEFORE CRONO GOES INTO THE TELEPOD TO SAVE MARLE, since Marle's travel makes a new timeline, and the same could be said about Lucca as well, since she traveled after both of them.
NOTE: I am not suggesting the Grandfather Paradox, nor an infinite loop. I am merely suggesting that only Crono and Lucca would've been prevented from going back in time, not Marle. Marle is preserved in 600 AD no matter what happens in the new future, even if she isn't born, because she caused the new timeline to be created and the old to be discarded. However, without Marle's influence in the new timeline, Crono and Lucca would not need to travel back to get her.
However, we know that this does not happen in Trigger. Crono picks up the pendant like nothing happened to the timeline, and jumps in to save Marle. Furthermore, Lucca comes back even later to save Crono and Marle. There is no indication of a new timeline being created - nothing in the present seems to change as soon as Marle travels back.
That leaves two solutions. Solution #1 would be that, what we see of Crono picking up the pendant and going after Marle is actually occuring IN THE DARKNESS BEYOND TIME. As soon as Marle get's back to 600 AD, the old future from that point on is discarded to the DBT. However, in that timeline, Crono decides to travel back to 600 AD. He leaves the DBT and ends up in 600AD to re-write history yet again. Lucca would have to do the same thing. However, that means that beings from the DBT could travel into the real world, which makes no sense because beings in the DBT don't even exist.
Solution #2, which I think is much better, is that Marle's travel back in time does not affect her existence in the future. In other words, what I said should happen above when Marle travels back happens. A new timeline is created instantly, and it is created right around Crono and Lucca in 1000 AD, but of course they don't realize it. We actually watch it happen in the game, but we don't realize it either. The reason we don't realize it is that it doesn't change anything that we can see. In the new future after Marle appears in 600 AD, Leene is still found, and she still has children, and Marle is still born in 986 AD or so, and still runs into Crono, etc. I believe that this has to be the case, or else Crono and Lucca would have no reason to travel back to 600 AD to save Marle.
So, I guess all I'm really saying is that Leene would've been found regardless of anything Crono, Frog or Lucca did. She has to be, else Crono and Lucca would never travel back in time, even though Marle would.
99
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Schala a Violation of the Conservation of Matter?
« on: September 03, 2008, 09:35:46 am »Well it was said that Dragonopolis was pulled from an alternate dimension, yet it also seems that Another World should, by all rights, be itself a discarded timeline. Another world is the timeline that existed before Kid traveled back in time to save Serge. When she did so, Home World should have become the primary timeline and Another World should have been discarded (curiously, where Crono traveled time to save the future, Kid's travels doomed that future). Instead, Another World became a dimension. Thus, Dragonopolis might likewise be seen as both an alternate dimension (like Another World) and a timeline that should be discarded (also like Another World). Or, I suppose, Dragonopolis might have actually been pulled from the DBT itself (if so, that might help to explain why the Time Devourer had access to the Dragon God to absorb in the first place; it was already there, but then it was pulled back out of the DBT, much in the same way as the dead sea).
This (the bolded part especially) does seem like a paradox. Using the same time travel rules as Chrono Trigger, and assuming time is brittle (not elastic as you explain, like in Harry Potter or the movie Kate and Leopold, for example), Another World should've been in the DBT, and Home World should've taken over starting at the point of Kid's arrival to save Serge. However, something existed at Kid's arrival point (on the Time Error axis) that didn't exist when Crono was jumping around time - Lavos/the TD in the DBT. With the Time Devourer in the DBT, perhaps it is impossible for ruined timelines to be sent there. Maybe the very presence of the TD prohibits entrance into the DBT, unless you have a Time Egg? It is known that, once the TD is destroyed, the timelines are unified - therefore "alternate dimensions" no longer exist, because the DBT is back to being what it's supposed to be.
100
History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Magus, The Masamune, and The Amulet
« on: August 29, 2008, 03:17:10 pm »
I like this theory and believe it has some merit, but I will point out that Magus can wear the Ruby Vest all he wants without anything happening to his magic defense. I believe that I remember the Ruby Vest being made in 65000000 BC out of Dreamstone. Therefore, if Magus was weak against Dreamstone, would the Ruby Vest not adversely affect him?
101
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: If Crono would be killed before he goes to the Millennial Fair
« on: August 29, 2008, 02:20:56 pm »
Long time reader - first time poster.
This is how I prefer to look at TTI. When someone decides to travels back through time, a new timeline is created instantly. That new timeline begins at the time traveler's destination. In the new timeline, the time-traveler exists on Day 1. He has no relatives and no connection to this world - it's like time just decided to create him. There is no guarantee that the time-traveler will be born in the future of this new timeline - that future has not yet occurred (on the Time Error axis, nor has it occured on the Time axis in this timeline).
In fact, the future of the old timeline from that point in 1999 AD on (where he is born) is now in the DBT, and never existed. All that is left of it is in the memory of the time-traveler.
Imagine, for a second, that some 30 year old guy does go back in time to kill Crono just before he defeats Lavos. He appears in 1999 AD, and thus has created a new timeline. However, when he gets there, he has a change of heart and does nothing. As a matter of fact, he sits in one spot and does (and affects) nothing for 600 years or so, until he is born in the future. What happens now? He hasn't changed anything, so the new timeline is exactly the same as the old one. Therefore, he is born and there are two of him - the infant version and the now-630-year-old adult version that traveled back in time. But, because of Time Bastard, I think the 630-year old version would disappear the minute the infant version is born, leaving the infant version as the only version of him alive.
If he decides to kill Crono and then sits there for 600 years, he doesn't see himself being born. The reason is because he is in a different future than the one he left, and this different future has a different past. That different future does not include him as an infant; the old future did. That different past includes him as of Day 1; the old past did not. Thus, the 630-year old version of him continues to exist in the new future. (all of that assumes this dude is some kind of immortal, and could live to be 630).
Man, that explanation was long-winded. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.....
This is how I prefer to look at TTI. When someone decides to travels back through time, a new timeline is created instantly. That new timeline begins at the time traveler's destination. In the new timeline, the time-traveler exists on Day 1. He has no relatives and no connection to this world - it's like time just decided to create him. There is no guarantee that the time-traveler will be born in the future of this new timeline - that future has not yet occurred (on the Time Error axis, nor has it occured on the Time axis in this timeline).
In fact, the future of the old timeline from that point in 1999 AD on (where he is born) is now in the DBT, and never existed. All that is left of it is in the memory of the time-traveler.
Imagine, for a second, that some 30 year old guy does go back in time to kill Crono just before he defeats Lavos. He appears in 1999 AD, and thus has created a new timeline. However, when he gets there, he has a change of heart and does nothing. As a matter of fact, he sits in one spot and does (and affects) nothing for 600 years or so, until he is born in the future. What happens now? He hasn't changed anything, so the new timeline is exactly the same as the old one. Therefore, he is born and there are two of him - the infant version and the now-630-year-old adult version that traveled back in time. But, because of Time Bastard, I think the 630-year old version would disappear the minute the infant version is born, leaving the infant version as the only version of him alive.
If he decides to kill Crono and then sits there for 600 years, he doesn't see himself being born. The reason is because he is in a different future than the one he left, and this different future has a different past. That different future does not include him as an infant; the old future did. That different past includes him as of Day 1; the old past did not. Thus, the 630-year old version of him continues to exist in the new future. (all of that assumes this dude is some kind of immortal, and could live to be 630).
Man, that explanation was long-winded. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.....