Messages

226

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

« on: November 30, 2008, 03:49:29 pm »

Oh also, the entity that was always spoken by the party, could we say it's FATE? (though I'm pretty sure there would be countless theories about this, whether it's Schala, FATE, or maybe just 4th window, since the entity is the player themselves)

It's impossible for FATE to be the Entity. FATE was created long after CT, in 2400 A.D. of the future that was created when the Day Of Lavos was prevented. As for Schala, or the player... *thinks* ...those are possible.

Its supposed to be the planet.  Japanese version and new translations heavily support it - plus Masato Kato supports it and that pretty much seals the deal lol


But I guess I'll be that guy - lets say Lavos is the entity.  It completed its lifecycle sometime around 2300AD and is now having "flashbacks" of important moments in its life.

65000000BC  it lands on earth
12000BC connection with Queen Zeal, Ocean Palace incident, destruction of Zeal Kingdom
600AD summoned by Magus
1000AD not sure, the earthquakes? maybe it reached the pinnacle of its evolution, who knows.
1999AD arises, destroys the world and such
2300AD has given birth and is slowly dying

Now before you say "but wouldn't he see Crono and Co. try to defeat him and blah blah" nope because those events haven't happened in "real time" yet.  yay 5D construct. 

I'm not serious at all but I am pointing out that its good we have Kato's input because sometimes speculation can take us in the wrong direction.   

227

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: plot point I don't get (spoilers but doubtful)

« on: November 29, 2008, 11:21:04 pm »

The part about Magus delaying attacks or stalling for times makes sense, but it just gets me because towns people say they've been at war for "years", yet in the game Guardia is still intact and the mystics haven't really done ANYTHING (only recently kidnapped the queen). It's like how long can this guy stall for time before Ozzie and crew realize he's not got his heart into it and take matters into their own hands?

They think he is summoning Lavos to wipe out Guardia.  Its like saying "spare our troops, we'll just nuke 'em".  Since the mystics don't have humanitarian concerns (for humans), they shouldn't suspect a thing.

228

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Was there ever a timeline that Lavos never appeared on Earth?

« on: November 29, 2008, 05:56:34 pm »

Now this is the timeline after Marle gets sent back in time;

Everything up until 600AD - Remains the same.

600AD - Leene is at one point captured by mystics and a search party is sent. Search party finds Marle whom they mistakenly take for Queen Leene of Guardia.

600AD~1000AD - No idea what happens here, Marle might act tomboy and eventually leave Guardia for a way back home and never realizing that she's in the past; The real Leene might eventually be found; both, one or the other, none, or something entirely different might happen; We just don't know. Looking at a Chrono Cross angle, the rest of original timeline would get dumped into the Darkness Beyond Time.

1000AD - This era should now be different, then having a Marle existing in this time period, since the one from the original timeline lived and died of old age(realistically saying) nearly 400 years ago.

1000AD~End of Time - Unknown what happens.
 

Hmm.  If Marle goes back in time she changes history so Crono and Lucca and everyone should immediately recall that the Queen was found in Truce Canyon instead of the Cathedral.  But wait, Marle threatens her own life and ends up being sent to the DBT because the real Queen dies. Which means that Marle never went to the fair in the first place.    Isn't this what Time Error is for? Because Queen Leene had not died "yet" (yay 5D construct) it doesn't threaten Marle's existence at the fair before the Telepod incident.   right?  maybe?

229

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: plot point I don't get (spoilers but doubtful)

« on: November 29, 2008, 04:42:57 pm »

Okay if the Mystics (not gonna call them fiends, bleh) can change their form to look like humans (the ones in the cathedral did, and Flea can) why didn't they just disguise themselves as Guardia guards and infiltrate the castle, kill the king, and take over? It'd have been so easy! Instead they have this roundabout plan of Yakra taking the queen and smashing the bridge (which to me still makes no sense, because then how can they get across themselves to attack the castle?). Plus, if they come out of the Magic Cave why did they leave Dorino and Porre alone? Those towns were completely defenseless yet they weren't ransacked at all.

I don't know, can someone explain the Mystic's line of thinking, because from a tactical standpoint they really blew it.

I don't know about the transformations but...  as for the bridge incident, it think is was supposed to cut off the north from the south so that Magus's troops could ravage the south easily.  No support from the elite knights of the square table 

230

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A single Gate's ability to send multiple people to different times?

« on: November 29, 2008, 04:29:46 pm »

Magus recalls the incident (as it originally happened) and we see them being dragged into separate gates.  A villager recalls the incident as it happened this time around, and mentions them being dragged into the same gate.

Since Crono and Co. changed history, the timeline is rewritten and Melchoir wouldn't be protected by TTI.  But Magus is protected because hes outside of the rewritten timeline. In other words, Magus remembers the incident as he describes it and Melchoir when you first meet him in the game would as well.  But now Melchoir will remember the incident as the villager describes it.  The gate must have sent them to different times, much like the gate in Magus's Castle sent 3 to 65,000,000BC and 1 to 12,000BC.

231

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Name plot holes for Chrono games.

« on: November 29, 2008, 04:00:50 pm »

Lucca and Taban, the brainiest residents of Truce, are able to built a Teleportation device as well as a humanoid talking robot and guns.  Yet, no one thought it a good idea to build roads, cars and trucks.  Guns aren't a common defense against the GIANT FREAKING MUSHROOMS that live right outside the royal castle.

Marle is erased from history temporarily when her ancestor is in danger of being killed,  By defeating Lavos, Crono changed history and erased millions of people from existence.

By the year 12000 BC, Humans had been around for more than  60 million years, yet the most advanced civilization is just a small population of magic users, everyone else resides in caves in the cold.  They never bothered to invent houses or fire.

1st one isn't a plot hole it just seems backwards to us.  I... don't understand the second one so I'll break it into two.

1. IMO ---> Marle disappeared because her presence in 600AD threatened her existence. First she enters the gate and is found by the guards/search team.  This starts a countdown - once it becomes impossible to save Leene before Yakra executes her Marle will disappear into the DBT.  This comes to pass and prompts Crono and Lucca to find the real Leene.  They discover the Cathedral, find Frog and the three of them (instead of just Frog) save the queen in time.  Once she is safe in the castle, Marle reappears.

2. The Crono Team didn't erase millions from existence, they actually saved millions (assuming there were that many).  I'm sure the bright future is more populated than the bleak one.

As for the 3rd one, again its not a plot hole, just something that seems strange and backwards to us.

232

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Are the gates relative?

« on: November 29, 2008, 03:44:26 pm »

Ah...Time Error has always given me a headache.  But if I may, I'd like to take this opportunity to ask a question.

I understand the basic premise of the passage of time due to Time Error, but how would this affect the experiences of multiple groups of time travelers?  For example, if someone from 1050AD were to find the same gate in Lenne's Square in 1050AD, and since the gate still points to that absolute moment in time plus Time Error, wouldn't it still lead him to Truce Canyon, on August 12th, 10:30pm, 600AD? (Especially if he had never time traveled before, and thus never had Time Error apply to him previously?)  Wouldn't he possibly run into Crono? 

To me, its seems that if Crono were to hop into this gate in 1050AD, he'd end up in 650AD because of Time Error.  But the new time traveler, having never time traveled before and never having Time Error apply previously, would end up in 600AD.  Right?

Perhaps I'm simply missing the point, I don't know.  Sorry if I sound like an idiot.

From what I've seen, the gates represent traveling a static duration in time directly related where you are on the timeline as opposed to a static point in time. 
So if the gate in Leene Square takes you back 400 years, then it will always do so. 1000AD Dec 30 8am goes back to 600AD Dec 30 8am (as an example).  Then you, the time traveler stay in 600AD and smoke a cigarette for 5 minutes then go back.  Its now 1000AD Dec 30 8:05am.    The old timeline where you weren't smoking that cig in 600AD is now in the DBT and in the new 1000AD your epic smoke break is a part of recorded history (even if no one knows about it). But to you (because of TTI), you won't recall your history book mentioning it.

Time Error isn't really needed to explain this.  But Time Error handles the "why didn't Crono see the bright future in 2300AD?" issue really well.

233

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: A Possiblity of Misunderstanding?

« on: November 29, 2008, 03:09:13 pm »

I think the evil comes from the idea that it doesn't need to lay the ultimate smackdown on the planet in order to spawn. I mean, it's such an all-powerful being, right? Why the need for such ultimate destruction to rain from the heavens like that? It just seems like such a, "Okay, I'm done with you, so eff off" kind of move that it's easy to interpret its actions as "evil".

I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak.  I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet.  Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables.  Its just a preventative measure.

234

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: CTDS New Ending =o

« on: November 29, 2008, 02:38:42 pm »

It is better without music IMO.  Even Marle said it was "somewhere cold, dark and lonely".  The lack of music strengthens that loneliness (poor Schala). 

Also Schala tells Magus that no amount of power can save her.  In CC Schala and the TD both die if you kill it the old fashioned way.  It all seems to match up at least. 

235

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

« on: November 27, 2008, 03:45:01 pm »

So, I've been one of those lurkers who've been reading through the compendium for years, but never actually commented on anything.  It gives me great pleasure to finally join in the discussion since everyone here puts plenty of thought into each of their posts.  It's a great thing to see.

So here's my question.  I'm a bit confused about how time gates tie in with dimensional vortices.  It was my understanding that if Chrono & Co alter the time line (no matter when they do so), the pre-alteration time line gets sent to the Dead Sea (or is it Sea of Eden--I always get them confused).  If that's the case, how can different dimensions exist?

To me, different dimensions represent events that could have happened, but if alternate time lines are sucked into the Dead Sea, then how can these different potentialities ever come to fruition?

I know I'm probably overlooking something really obvious, but I'd love some help with this one.

...statement by Masato Kato that the Dead Sea is the ruined timeline Crono averted by killing Lavos, and a reflection of destruction that Serge causes.

Ok wait, what gets sent to the Dead Sea and what gets sent to the DBT.  I need a refresher.  If the above quote is true, then the Lavos who wasn't killed is inside the Dead Sea, with the rest of his timeline.

Lavos in I guess almost every version of the Keystone Timelines was sent to the DBT when he was defeated, so it would seem that he wasn't meshed in with everything else in the Dead Sea. If he was, though, then he is either frozen or dormant.

Nevermind I get it.
1. Lavos Timeline: Lavos wins
2. Another World: He loses and Lavos Timeline gets sent to the DBT (including the formerly victorious Lavos who pulls Schala from the Ocean Palace incident thus beginning the evolution of the Dream Devourer/Time Devourer).
3. Home World: Lavos is unable to lose because the Crono Team could only save the future of Another World, since only one copy of the Team existed in 1000AD. (thank you Compendium Article)

Essentially Home World becomes the new Lavos Timeline, only with a few differences.

Another World houses Chronopolis in the Sea of Eden, which was there in first place because of the Time Crash.
Now Chronopolis was sent to the past...before the split occurs in 1010AD, so it should still be there in the future in both worlds, even though it was never created in Home World.    According to one of the Compendium's Articles, the Time Crash essentially makes Another Worlds 2400AD and 12000BC (apparently this is the new accepted date or something) exist simultaneously in that region. 

So now Home World has this region in El Nido that crosses 12000BC and 2400AD, thus we see the bleak future Lavos creates for Home World in the Dead Sea because this "neo-Lavos Timeline" wasn't discarded. 

@ Toma XIII: So to answer your question, finally, the original changes the Crono Team made to the timeline were sent to the Darkness Beyond Time, where that Lavos now resides, not the Dead Sea. Actually, no discarded timelines are sent to the Dead Sea at all. The future we see in Home World Dead Sea exists because of the split in 1010AD.  There are TWO futures where Lavos wins: The discarded Lavos Timeline, and Home World's Timeline.

maybe 

236

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

« on: November 27, 2008, 01:27:45 pm »

So, I've been one of those lurkers who've been reading through the compendium for years, but never actually commented on anything.  It gives me great pleasure to finally join in the discussion since everyone here puts plenty of thought into each of their posts.  It's a great thing to see.

So here's my question.  I'm a bit confused about how time gates tie in with dimensional vortices.  It was my understanding that if Chrono & Co alter the time line (no matter when they do so), the pre-alteration time line gets sent to the Dead Sea (or is it Sea of Eden--I always get them confused).  If that's the case, how can different dimensions exist?

To me, different dimensions represent events that could have happened, but if alternate time lines are sucked into the Dead Sea, then how can these different potentialities ever come to fruition?

I know I'm probably overlooking something really obvious, but I'd love some help with this one.

...statement by Masato Kato that the Dead Sea is the ruined timeline Crono averted by killing Lavos, and a reflection of destruction that Serge causes.

Ok wait, what gets sent to the Dead Sea and what gets sent to the DBT.  I need a refresher.  If the above quote is true, then the Lavos who wasn't killed is inside the Dead Sea, with the rest of his timeline.

237

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

« on: November 26, 2008, 11:25:28 pm »

Understood but that is the opposite of what I'm saying  Sad

I'm not saying I disagree with you, Eske.  I'm disagreeing with others' opinions I've seen here in the forums.  In fact, I pretty much am in agreement with you.  I, like you, think "Time Eclipse Magus" is actually just "Future Magus", due to the player's role.

I was moreso just voicing my opinion.   

Oops lol sorry I misunderstood     And as for the "player's role" part, I definately agree.  I think a player-centric persepective is appropriate sometimes because I think that's the way Kato likes to view the games - if I'm reading those interviews correctly.

     

I think that we also have to keep in mind is this:

Chrono Trigger is released. At the end we all had questions of: What happened to Schala? Did Magus ever finds her? What became of Crono and Crew after all is said and done? And more.

Debate, speculation, wishing for the next Chrono Trigger!

Chrono Cross is released. It answers some questions to the end of Chrono Trigger, but at the end of it all, even more questions arise. Too many to really list.

Debate, speculation, wishing for another Chrono Trigger!

Chrono Trigger is re-released. It answers some questions from CC, but at the end of it all, more questions arise.

Debate, speculation, wishing for another Chrono Trigger!

In the end, it boils down to, lather, rinse, repeat. We can speculate all that we want, and I must admit I love reading about it, but in the end it will be answered with the next game it seems.
Let's consider what we've seen thus far:

• Never would I have known or considered Dalton to be the one responsible for the rise of the Porre Army to attack Guardia. (There was speculation in the Compendium) That just came out of nowhere, but we didn't get this answered/confirmed until CT re-released. Which goes back that our questions will be answered one way or another it seems.
• Magus, is a wonderful character. His story is sad and tragic and we finally learn what happens to him in CT re-released. (It was so sad!) Now it makes us question the whole speculation of Magus = Guile and also, what exacley did happen? (I'll leave my thoughts on this for another time )
• Schala, I believe with each release, it seems that the story is about her. Her astral amulet causing the turn of the events that is Chrono Trigger. Queen Zeal, ordering and using her because of the sheer amount of power she had. The amount of sadness she kept inside vs. the amount of good she held in her heart splitting into two beings Harle/Kid speculation. Also what happened to her after Cross?
• New Speculation on the role of Marle, Chrono and Lucca. Were they the focal characters chosen by the planet to stop Lavos? Why were they the only ones that had clones? Why were they the ghosts that appeared to Serge?

It can go on and on! And we just love this game so much we can just talk about it all day . . . until bed time!

While its true that we are just speculating.... its nice to see that the Compendium nailed the Dalton/Porre issue.  So maybe if we debate enough, we can get close to other answers      Here's hoping...

(I know I'm not the first to say it but SE definately jacked the Dalton idea from here. We all know it. Let's keep saying stuff so it can be included in the next game lol)

238

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

« on: November 26, 2008, 10:38:43 pm »

You know what, though, there are plenty of unintentional plot holes (ie - "designer oversight") in the Chrono series.  To me, "Time Eclipse Magus" could just as easily be one of those unintentionals (as far as him still appearing despite killing him at the North Cape).

I'm still not comfortable with "Time Eclipse Magus" being from another dimension.  It's just too "deux ex machina" and random, and it has NO relevance to the plot whatsoever.  It just allows for too many "random intervals".

But that's just me.

Understood but that is the opposite of what I'm saying  

？？？「ここには、もうラヴォスはいない。
ここはすでにラヴォスが倒された
未来の時空だ。
俺たちがヤツを滅ぼした。

???: Lavos is no longer here.
This is a future timespace where
Lavos has already been defeated.
We destroyed him.
[I find it curious that this future(?) Magus refers to himself throughout this ending as 'ore'--
Magus in the rest of CT refers to himself as 'watashi' everywhere but a single scene.]

Ｍａｇｕｓ「もっとも、お前たちが
やってきた世界で
俺たちが手を組んでいたかどうかは
知らぬがな。

Magus: Although I don't know
whether or not I joined forces
with you, in the world you come from.
[He said this to me with Magus in my party, so I assume he says the same thing no matter what.]

世界は、せんたくの数だけ存在する。

There are as many worlds out there as there are choices.

Ｍａｇｕｓ「この先で、新たな敵が
生まれようとしている。
この先に広がる、時の闇の底で。

Magus: Beyond [this Gate], a new
enemy is trying to come into being.
In the deepest depths of the Darkness
of Time beyond this point.

人の記憶を、夢を、想いを
喰らおうとしている...。

Time Eclipse Magus IS from the "original" dimension.  

1. The Player, making Choice A, defeats Lavos which allows...
2. Choice B: Player ignores Lavos and does the Time Eclipse event.

Magus A searches for Schala and ends up at Lavos's former "location".  Team B finds him there.

239

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

« on: November 26, 2008, 09:25:43 pm »

Eclipse Magus notes that he has already defeated Lavos as well in his dimension, so the entrance to DBT appeared there probably too somehow

I was saying that Eclipse Magus is from Dimension A, the player's original run through of the game, where Lavos was defeated.
Hence the entrance to the DBT appeared there, along with distortions in other dimensions apparently.

That depends on the answer to this question (I haven't played CC in years)

What is so special about the gate to the DBT in CC?

If my instincts are right and they usually...aren't - thats where Serge was killed/not killed right?

If thats the case (and I hope it is)  pathways to the DBT appear where something that should not have happened, happened.  Examples in this case are Serge living (blame Schala) and Lavos's defeat (blame Entity).

So I'm guessing (again) that the bucket takes Crono Team B to post 1999AD Lavos battle site for dimension A. The gate further back by Magus II marks Lavos's grave and the CT entrance to the DBT.

So:

1. New gate at EoT is just another dimensional vortex - sending them to dimension A (convenient)
2. Pathways to DBT appear at sites where time was changed by an external force.

maybe 

Actually I think the CC DBT gate was made by Serge dying, as the Ideal Timeline has him alive. Why it's in Home World is anyone's guess.

Didn't Belthasar say the world where Serge is alive is the false world? I seriously read a quote like that on the forums yesterday lol but it doesn't matter:  Serge was supposed to die and Schala stepped in from the DBT to stop it, causing the dimensional split.  The entrance to the DBT is in Home World because that is where Serge is alive (the problem).  In Another World Serge died and everything is normal.

240

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

« on: November 26, 2008, 08:46:19 pm »

That depends on the answer to this question (I haven't played CC in years)

What is so special about the gate to the DBT in CC?

If my instincts are right and they usually...aren't - thats where Serge was killed/not killed right?

If thats the case (and I hope it is)  pathways to the DBT appear where something that should not have happened, happened.  Examples in this case are Serge living (blame Schala) and Lavos's defeat (blame Entity).

So I'm guessing (again) that the bucket takes Crono Team B to post 1999AD Lavos battle site for dimension A. The gate further back by Magus II marks Lavos's grave and the CT entrance to the DBT.

So:

1. New gate at EoT is just another dimensional vortex - sending them to dimension A (convenient)
2. Pathways to DBT appear at sites where time was changed by an external force.

maybe