Messages

211

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos's actual size

« on: December 18, 2008, 03:46:12 pm »

What about the size of the lavos spawns on Death Peak(?) They aren't much bigger than the party. I can't remember how big the sprite is when he destroys the tyranno lair, but if the spawns are that small when you're fighting them (the ones on the mountian) couldn't one assume that is the form it was in when it fell and it grows larger from there?

yea I think the same way, pretty much.

1. Parent reaches evolutionary peak with available resources.
2. Rises, eliminates immediate threats to its spawn. (destroys world)
3. Gives birth to spawn.
4. Lives on or dies (who knows)
5. Spawn slowly grows.
6. When they reach some unknown point of maturity they leave the "nest".
7. They find a new "nest" (either homing in on life-bearing planets, or randomly wandering through space)
8. Rinse, repeat

Looking at the sprites,  Lavos in 65mil BC looks like it would be bigger than the spawn we see in the game, but much smaller than the fully matured Lavos we see erupt in 1999AD.

212

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A question about time traveler immunity. And perhaps, a new theory.

« on: December 18, 2008, 03:26:50 pm »

Okay, I understand.  It's the original Melchior who always arrive in 1000AD, every 1000 AD.
So Magus is not the only one who remember the original incident, and his case is not special.

That's pretty much it, though there is one difference:  The Magus we have in our party recalls all of the incidents the way they happened the first time around, including no memories of the Black Omen existing in 600AD.  Melchior/Belthasar/Gaspar, the way we knew them when we first met them, are not the same.  They will always recall the Black Omen existing in their respective time periods.

So,  we always see Magus A1, not Magus A2.
But we see Melchior/Belthasar/Gaspar A2 - because their gates open after the world has changed.
Their "A1" counterparts aren't TB'ed, they are just sent to the DBT with the rest of the timeline where the Black Omen never existed/other changes.
All  "B"  counterparts are TB'ed, of course.

213

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)

« on: December 17, 2008, 11:12:38 pm »

I fail to see how TTI or Time Bastard are being violated here.

Let's assume that Eclipse Magus is from the future:

Time Bastard prevents "doubles" from occurring.  This doesn't mean you could never see yourself - it means you will never see a "second self" appear from the gate you most recently came from.  Example:

1. Crono A travels to 600AD, then 635AD then 700AD then comes to rest.
2. Crono B will be TB'ed when entering the gate to 600AD; Crono C at 635AD; and Crono D at 700AD.

This way Crono B won't appear right after Crono A in 600AD and so on.  Here is an example comparable to what might have happened with E. Magus vs our Magus:

1. We can only enter the DBT after Lavos dies (load up an old save).
2. The new dimensional vortexes appear in all time periods once they are created.
3. Our original Magus finds his way to the DBT.
4. Before reaching the point of being TB'ed, Crono and Co. in a timeline that now holds these vortexes are able and do make a choice to explore them.  They enter the new gate in the bucket and end up at the DBT only to meet who is now known as Eclipse Magus.

Eclipse Magus travels at:  X----------------DBT
Other  Magus  travels at:  X--------DBT---TB

^ just a simple model.   As long as you make the choice to time travel a different way before your "current" counterpart made his or her final time travel, you are solid - and could theoretically meet that counterpart.  This new choice exists for the Crono team because of an external change made simultaneously to all time periods.

214

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A question about time traveler immunity. And perhaps, a new theory.

« on: December 17, 2008, 10:31:47 pm »

Actually, the original Belthasar wasn't erased. The original belthasar's appearance in 2300 AD is protected but not the subsequent events; thus CC Belthasar would be the one who saw the original Ocean Palace disaster. The Belthasar from the changed timeline in which Crono and Co interfered with the Ocean Palace, assuming TB is correct, is the one shunted into the DBT.

I have more difficulty with TB than I thought.
Originally, i thought it was a great idea, but, well I am not so sure anymore.
In the case of Belthasar, when the ocean palace incident changed. Belthasar of 12000BC, was TB ed. Then the Belthasar in 2300BC is overwritten along with the future. The old future is replaced by one in which the Black omen was always present. And then TTI, create Belthazar as he was when he first arrived in 2300.
I think, it would be easier, if the Belthasar of 12000BC, was just sent directly toward the new 2300.
I know, I know. Magus remember the old incident after he was changed. So he is the original Janus, from the original incident. This mean that the Janus of the new incident, has been TB ed. It's then natural to assume, that it is the same for the three gurus.
If it weren't for the case of Magus, TB could be avoided.
Wait a minute. There is one big difference between Magus, and the three gurus. Magus, time traveled another time. He is even responsible for the new ocean palace incident.
Well before continuing this line of reasoning, I have the following question :
Is there fact in the game that prove without a doubt that the three gurus, after the new Ocean Palace Incident, remember the original incident, and not the new ones?

Yes, it would be easier if the new Belthasar was the one who was sent to the now altered future and I tried to argue that on another thread until Acacia Sgt and Thought helped me better understand how TB and TTI work.

As for your question:  I guess you could say that Melchior in 1000AD doesn't say anything implying he remembers you.

Also, since TTI preserves any instance of time travel.  That gate will appear in 1000AD no matter what.  Also, the gate's contents (in this case, Melchior) are outside of the timeline - making a 5D move.  So it makes sense that a 4D event won't change it.

When Crono goes back to 1000AD - this new Melchior is the exact same one that entered the black gate the first time, but not the exact same one Crono met at the Millennial Fair. (This new one would always recall the Black Omen existing in 1000AD, but not Crono's presence in 12000BC).

215

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A question about time traveler immunity. And perhaps, a new theory.

« on: December 16, 2008, 08:53:12 pm »

Okay, that was what I thought.
But then I realized.

(Belthasar seeing the bleak future, then the bright one after Lavos was killed)

The original Belthasar has been erased by TB, and then TTI replaced him with a new one.
 
Up till now I never considered the fact that a time traveler whose arrival is protected by TTI could be later erased by TB. I was so caught up by the immunity part of TTI...  It seems so obvious now. How could have I been this blind.
Thanks to have opened my eyes.

No, the original Belthasar was not erased by TB - he was sent to the DBT when Crono created the bright future.  The Belthasar who entered the black gate at the Ocean Palace the second time around was sent to the DBT via TB.   But wait!


This is the order of events in Time Error:

1. Belthasar A enters gate in 12,000BC
2. Belthasar A emerges in Bleak 2300AD
3. Crono intervenes
4. Belthasar B enters gate in 12,000BC - goes straight to DBT  (via TB)
5. Crono kills Lavos.  Belthasar A and that entire piece of the Timeline are instantly sent to the DBT
6. Belthasar A emerges in Bright 2300AD

yea sounds weird that the exact same person goes to two different futures right? We can't really say he is the same though - he isn't. Its pretty much like having Belthasar A1 and Belthasar A2.   That's what I meant by "this is as far as TTI goes".  Belthasar only time traveled once.  The fact he did so is protected by TTI  and any subsequent version from 12,000BC will be dismissed by TB.  Yet this Belthasar isn't exactly the same as the one Crono met because its a new future.  If Crono went there, Belthasar wouldn't recall the old 2300AD of course, so individual immunity is fragile.

Once you stop hopping around on the 5D axis, you are fair game for being changed.

Edit - I wasn't satisfied with my old response.

216

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A question about time traveler immunity. And perhaps, a new theory.

« on: December 16, 2008, 12:05:33 am »

Well thanks, but my question is not about time bastard. But about time traveler immunity. Besides, Time bastard does not create duplicate, it erase them.
It seems my question as I formulated it was misleading.
In the example of the forest : Time traveler Immunity does not create a duplicate in 600 AD. It is the original time traveler who is preserved by Time Traveler Immunity. And in the new 1000 AD, the new Crono who always saw a forest, has been created by natural mean : his parent gave him birth.
So in this example no duplicate where created by time mechanics. Then the new Crono disappear through Time Bastard, at the exact same moment the original departed for 600 AD. So when the original Crono in his era, he find no duplicate.
In this case, there is no problem at all.
Now imagine, that after returning in 1000 AD, Crono now leave for 65 000 000 BC. Here, he somehow, kill Lavos before he even crash on earth. I know, it is nearly impossible, but to made myself clear I prefer taking a radical change in the past.
So Lavos did not crash. The reptite do not go extinct. The human or rather the Ape, are the ones who disappear.
Well I know, and I understand perfectly, that Crono will still arrive in 65 000 000 BC due to Time Traveler Immunity.
But the question is, does Time Traveler Immunity preserve the arrival of Crono in 600 AD? Does it create a Crono, identical to the one that originally arrived here?
This Crono, would later be erased by Time Bastard. If he is created that is.
And it is not finished, The same question can be asked for the original return of Crono in 1000AD.
In short, my question is, does Time Traveler Immunity preserve every arrival of a time traveler, or only the last one?
I think, it preserve every one of them. But to do that it will need to create duplicate.
Additionally in Chrono Trigger it would mean, that duplicate of Crono and Co would be created in the bright future of 2300 AD.
Well what do you think?

I think TTI preserves all time travel events of a time traveler.

1. Crono goes from 1000AD to 600AD  at local time of 5:30pm
2. He looks at a weeping willow tree and then heads back into the gate to 1000AD. now its 5:35pm
3. A new copy of Crono is born who either enters the gate at 5:30pm and goes straight to the DBT or does not enter the gate at 5:30pm and disappears into the DBT regardless. 

So it really doesn't matter if a new Crono is born or not.

4. Crono then decides to go to 65milBC and does something so weeping willows never exist.
5. He returns to 1000AD.
6. Whether or not this new Crono yet again goes into the gate to 600AD/65milBC is inconsequential.
7. Crono will appear in 600AD and will not see a weeping willow.  The original Crono now sitting in 1000AD, who originally saw the weeping willow will still remember it.
8. Crono will still appear in 65mil BC and perform the same actions he always did no matter what  -  that is until someone travels back further than him to make those actions impossible to perform (as Crono did to himself, by eliminating weeping willows).
9. The original Crono who was not TB'ed through this whole experience will remember everything that he did.

That's as far as TTI goes.    TTI doesn't really protect the time traveler nor does it protect the changes made to the timeline, it merely protects the 5D change (the gate opening and releasing its "content") on Time.   So whatever happens after the gate opens can be changed (Belthasar seeing the bleak future, then the bright one after Lavos was killed), but the fact that the gate was ever open - cant be changed by the means we see available to the characters.

217

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?

« on: December 15, 2008, 11:32:23 pm »

The thing is though, Time Error:

When Crono and Co. time travel, they make a 5th dimensional change to Time (4D).
Even if eliminating the 0-D space in 1999 eliminates it in the entire timeline (which I understand), the choice to eliminate it in the first place was made in 1999, a point on the 4D axis.
By making a 5th dimensional change, Crono travels back before that choice was made. 

Its easier to say that the reason why Lavos in 1999 can have its shell destroyed and the Lavos in the Ocean Palace incident can have it intact is because   1999 Lavos exited the 0-D space permanently.  You kill the shell,  it never returns to 0-D so all prior forms will keep the shell intact.

Then again, that doesn't violate the PD idea either.  Lavos exits the PD when he erupts anyway - so going to 1999 and destroying the shell wouldn't affect the 12000BC version in the first place.

218

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos time flow not perpendicular?

« on: December 13, 2008, 02:54:56 pm »

I think I get it:

Compendium:  PD always exists, before and after Entity intervenes, and its future can be changed.

You: 0-D only exists until 1999. Because it is separate from the timeline, after 1999 (when it is dissolved) it wouldn't be "approachable" from any point in time beforehand.

Which means that the party can't defeat Lavos in 12000BC because the second time around its like he came from nowhere and would return to nowhere.  Blink in, blink out   -  weird. lol

Kinda like it   =)

219

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos's actual size

« on: December 13, 2008, 02:32:42 pm »

No way a Lavos spawn could comfortably hold the Lavos Core inside of it.

Why not...? The shell seems like it could be hollow enough to fit a Core...

Well I know it has a core.  I just meant that the Lavos Spawn, as we see them in the game, cannot hold the fully developed core like the one we see in the game - so it would make sense that Lavos grows while in the planet.

220

Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Re: Lavos's actual size

« on: December 04, 2008, 09:54:46 pm »

I would assume that he grows while in the earth.  I mean, we see that the Lavos spawn start out small and Lavos would possibly have to grow to contain the "pinnacle of evolution" that it exists to create.
(No way a Lavos spawn could comfortably hold the Lavos Core inside of it.

Also. I wonder if the two types of unique monsters Lavos creates during the shell battle are the Lavos spawn at earlier stages.... (they have the same beak/eye feature as Lavos)

221

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A single Gate's ability to send multiple people to different times?

« on: December 03, 2008, 03:34:21 am »

Now I will try your example:     X  in Reality Y , 1000AD goes to 600AD  creating the new Reality Y' and X messes with stuff to severely change history.
Joe in 2600AD observes these changes.  no problem
Then X in Reality Y' travels to 1995AD (his perceived future).

In your example,  X would still be in Reality Y' , but in 1995AD instead.  But to Joe, who is in the true present,
 It is now Reality Y''  because all X did was change the past twice.

Actually, X going to 1,995 will not create Y'', but Joe entering 2600 will. Entering the time line from an outside location like a pocket dimension will have the same effect as someone traveling to the past. It counts as a change, but actually, it will only be from the perspective from everyone in any future point after the individual entered the time line. It's all about from which point of view you are watching. In cases like this, there isn't a true present point.

In the above case, it will be:

Y will cover from ??? to 600, point where X appeared from 1000 of Y. Anything after 600 of Y will go to the DBT.

Y' will cover from 600 to 2600, point where Joe entered the time line. In 1995, X will appear from the past, but no change is done. Anything after 2600 of Y' will go to the DBT.

Y'' will cover from 2600 to ???, if no other changes are made.

Well, I meant he observes the future from the pocket dimension to avoid that problem. My mistake 
Instead of a pocket dimension, think of Joe as an omniscient observer.  Joe represents us looking at cause and effect without changing the results.

Y will cover ??? to 600.   Agreed.
Y' will cover 600 to 2600.  No - Joe isn't entering the timeline anymore.  Joe is just observing this point in time (the present).

Y' will cover 600 to 1995. Where X changes the past again.   This changes the timeline because originally, (from 2600AD's point of view)   X did not go to 1995.

Y'' will cover 1995 - and onward.  Joe, observing, but not apart of, 2600AD would see the shift.

For me, Time (4D) is a snapshot of 3D space - I guess like a flip book.  I think of Time Error (5D), in a similar fashion. Only it takes a snap shot  of 3D space + Time.

If Crono running in a field was the entirety of 3D space - one moment of Time would him being in the middle of some running motion.  One moment of Time Error would be all of his motions at once  - like seeing all the pages of the flip book at the same time.

The way we see how    all of these events and examples "happen again" is different, so we keep coming up with different results.

I see that all Time values for Time Error N occur.
Within those values some entity stimulates change at Time X, creating Time Error N+1
Then,  Time Error N+1 will play out all new values from (the new) Time X' onwards (but at once).
An entity within Time Error N+1 creates a change at Time X', creating Time Error N+2
Then,   Time Error N+2 will play out all the new values from (the new) Time X'' and blah blah - the process continues until no more changes are made.


Edit:  Mixed up some wording.

222

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A single Gate's ability to send multiple people to different times?

« on: December 03, 2008, 01:09:04 am »

However, there is one possibility. When a Time Traveler named X escapes his reality to go to the past he is unable to reverse time, but he does visit an entirely different reality who's timeline seems to be repeating the same things as X's original timeline. And it is this timeline where X's presence effects the flow of time. Bring another chess piece on board and the outcome is different than supposed to be. That is how Chronoverse works.

I agree with you mostly here.  But the wording "different reality" scares me a bit.

However, it IS possible to visit that very timeline's future without traveling to yet another reality. But once done, you can't go back. If you do travel back to the past then you enter yet another reality.

This appears to work, but there is a problem.  Remember that the Entity started this whole process at the end of its life - sometime beyond 2300AD.  The terms "past" and "future" are related to a "present".  In your example, you assume that the game takes place in the present, but it technically doesn't.     Lets say that Joe was in a pocket dimension and he decided to focus on the absolute present - say 2600AD. 

Now I will try your example:     X  in Reality Y , 1000AD goes to 600AD  creating the new Reality Y' and X messes with stuff to severely change history.
Joe in 2600AD observes these changes.  no problem
Then X in Reality Y' travels to 1995AD (his perceived future).

In your example,  X would still be in Reality Y' , but in 1995AD instead.  But to Joe, who is in the true present,
 It is now Reality Y''   because all X did was change the past twice.
Since Crono and Co. only time travel "in the past" relative to the Entity's dying, every "future" they go to is also an alternate reality - according to your basic idea anyway.

If there is an absolute present, can you travel to the future.  not sure - but probably not since there is no predestiny in Chrono Trigger.

before coming across the Compendium. I assumed that there were an infinite number of realities, and when a time traveler travels into the past, he is actually visiting a parallel reality which future he is changing, while if he travels into the future he is just visiting the future in his own reality.

This directly states that time travellers are not traversing realities when they time travel, but visiting the past of their own timeline and rewriting history.

Your comments about time travel in the past appear to contradict eachother.

This would neatly account for many paradoxes of time travel, such as the grandfather paradox, since you couldn't go back in time to kill YOUR grandfather, you would be killing the grandfather of another you.

Yes...in a sense.  But its not a you in another, preexisting reality.   Absolute Present is important.  Assuming all of the realities you reference exist in the same point in time (such as 2008AD), then shifting back in time and into another reality in ( say from 1991AD to 1947AD ) to kill "your" grandfather would cause a paradox in that reality. 

However, you cannot have a story about time travelling without similar concepts having to be true, otherwise the story would be riddled with paradoxes.

Very true.  That's why I don't think this is a waste of time pretty much.  Plus its good exercise for the brain.

In this case what the Compendium is forgetting is that another Timeline exists that we don't know of. The Time Traveler's Actuality Clock. It travels with the body, mind and soul. When a X does time travel, he experiences an entirely different world, but his own body remains the same. If he's wearing a watch and time traveling, then the watch moves forward as if nothing has been tampered with time, just as the traveler's mind and body. Meaning, in a way, there is another force and flow that he cannot reverse and he continues aging. This is, what I call, a Perpendicular TimeFlow that flows and refracts throughout dimensions and time. Even if he does reverse and fast-forward time, the flow that he cannot escape is TTAC. And this TTAC contradicts TTI, because this TTAC is actually a proof of a Time Traveler's existence. And for a Time Traveler, there are ways sideways, but not back or forth. The only way is one way: Up.

I have issues with both TTI and TTAC.   And its all because of Time Error.  The thing is, Time Error is useful, as it makes the most sense out of everything I've seen at the Compendium.  The problem with TTI and TTAC is that they take a "personal point of view".    Crono travels back and forth - and none of these changes cannot affect him because his timeline has long since been dismissed to the DBT.  However, only a fragment has been dismissed.  So....

Crono travels back to let's say 200AD and changes things at Time Error X.
Marle travels back to 100AD at Time Error X+1,  "after" Crono time travelled.  Then changes history so Crono's family line dies out early.

Marle will recall Crono and his family line as she always has.  When she returns to 1000AD at Time Error X+2 she will see that here, Crono never existed.   

 The answer was in the game all along.  Remember the Marle Grandfather paradox issue?
Let's backtrack first.  Marle travels in the past and convinces Frog to write a famous book.  A new timeline is created in which the Marle of 1000AD would know about the book.  When the timeline reaches the point where the old Marle would have time travelled, the new Marle will be sent to the DBT.   Now back the the grandfather paradox here.    Queen Leene dies - a new timeline is created in which Marle never exists.

BECAUSE NO MARLE IS EVER BORN IN THE NEW TIMELINE TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL, THE ORIGINAL MARLE IS SENT TO THE DBT.   

"omg but she didn't disappear instantly why o why   - no loop where crono could not have met her because she never existed omg"

yea. I have an answer.  When Marle goes back in time she reaches 600AD, Time Error X+1. 
Quoting Thought:

In fact, if Crono just existing in the past changes the past, then for each additional second he is there, another timeline should get discarded in favor of a timeline with him in the past for that one additional second.

Swap the word "second" for moment.  That means when Marle travels back in time, she first creates a future in which she still goes to the fair with Crono and Crono sees her vanish into a gate.  Then he follows her into the past.  Later on, when she gets found and waits in the castle she starts a countdown of sorts. 

My guess is that when she reaches the point where Queen Leene would have been saved (but now wasn't) Marle will vanish into the DBT.  I think of it as a "point of certainty".  Up to that point, Queen Leene was not dead and therefore the Guardia line was preserved.  If Time allows her to exist beyond the "point of certainty", Leene could die and that would create a paradox.  So Time preserves itself by eliminating the unnecessary part of the problem - Marle.

So how would Crono remember her?   Simple.  The Crono and Marle that we see by the end of the 600AD aren't the same ones we started with.

Marle A in Timeline X, Time Error Y+1 enters gate leading to Timeline (X-n)', Time Error Y+2
Crono A and Lucca A are sent to the DBT along with Timeline X.
Crono B in the below timeline/time error, witnesses Marle B enter the gate.  She gets TBed.
Crono B in Timeline X' Time Error Y+3 enters gate leading to Timeline (X-n)'' Time Error Y+4  to follow her.

Crono B can never see Marle A or B - when the countdown finished "A" entered the DBT  and "B" was TBed.
Crono B actually sees Marle C of the new timeline he created by travelling there.

Marle C is created when Crono B travels to the past, to a new timeline where the countdown to the point of certainty has yet to finish.

All later Cronos that follow him into the past are TBed. 

Marle C is then sent to the DBT at the same time Marle A was. This prompts Crono to save Leene. He does - and at the castle, after the rescue he creates a new "point of certainty", thus Marle C returns.  Well, maybe its Marle C   --  I can't really be sure of that.


So I guess a part of my theory is that your time travel at Time Error N  protects you until someone screws you over at
Time Error N+1.    TTI  needs some work.  Time Bastard is awesome.

Whoever read this long post - sorry and hope you enjoyed it 

223

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A single Gate's ability to send multiple people to different times?

« on: December 01, 2008, 11:29:29 pm »

There is the problem:  Person A went to Timeline X'.   But that destination no longer exists.

Time travelers don't choose which time line to travel to, they always appear in the current one.

Here is what I am saying:

Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A' goes to Timeline X''
Person A goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT

It is wrong saying it is A' going to X'', as he will get TBed. The destination of A would just change from X' to X''. He is only choosing the time to travel to. From which time line it will not matter since he is only traveling to the year.

1. Time Traveler Sayid Locke goes back to 600 A.D. 2. Sayid Locke plants a tree in fertile ground, and goes back to the present. 3. Time Traveler Ethan Eko changes prehistory to make the world have a desert climate.
 

This is pretty much what bothers me.  It may just be the wording.  But it seems like Sayid appears in Time Error X+1 to plant the tree, sees fertile ground, plants the tree, and returns to the present - so hes now in Time Error X+2.
Then Eko at Time Error X+3 creates the desert climate further in the past.

The question is:  did Sayid ever see the fertile area?    If yes, then TTI and Time Bastard work.  If no, TTI doesn't.
  Let's look at no:

He enters 600AD at Time Error X+1 and finds a desert, even though the desert wasn't made yet. (TE X+3)
The memories he should have had at TE X+2 of a fertile area are now replaced which means no TTI
 OR even worse,  if he never had those memories because he found himself in a desert even before it was made,
..................predestiny   =(

Lets look at yes:

He sees a fertile area, plants the tree and then leaves.  Eko changes history.  Sayid still remembers seeing the fertile area and planting the tree, even if in the new timeline the tree doesn't exist.  What happens to the Sayid who sees only the desert?  He should be sent to the DBT upon reentering the gate to the present according to Time Bastard. This can happen because even though Time is patched with new info, Time Error isn't.  The desert event and the "second" travel to 600AD by Sayid both happen further along the Time Error Axis than the "first" travel.  The original Sayid is separated from these changes right?

^^The above would support what the Compendium thinks about Melchior.  He travelled, time was changed, it didn't matter and he still remembers things the way things originally happened but...

The Article's answer?

Now, when Sayid comes through the portal, will he see fertile ground? Certainly not; he'll observe the desert, as the timeline containing fertile ground has been relegated to the Darkness Beyond Time.

What?  I see a fight between TTI, TB, and TE.    If Time Error can act as part of a coordinate system then the same version of Sayid is sent to two "places".    On the TE axis, one exists "first", then another replaces it? No the second one should be sent to the DBT, not the first.  Where is the immunity?

224

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A single Gate's ability to send multiple people to different times?

« on: November 30, 2008, 08:57:55 pm »

While not entirely seeing your point, I do understand enough to answer you.

About X's time travel being preserved, it's because the way time travel works. When one time travels, he is exiting the time line to enter it again at the desired destination (at least that's what I think how it works). So, if X travels 10 years into the future, he is skipping 10 years of the continuity of time, at least, to the time line's perspective.

So, if the year of destination is 2008, then even if X of the new time line created by another time traveler can't time travel in 1998, the X who did travel will appear in 2008 of the new time line. The fact that they are both from different time lines makes it possible, they aren't the same individual, no matter how identical they are.

Same thing works for traveling to the past, X will still appear regardless of what happens to the new X in the future.

lol sorry I do have a somewhat disjointed way of explaining things.  I completely understand what you are saying but I still see a problem.  Maybe I'm missing something easy but...

Okay this is what I believe the Compendium is saying in regards to Melchoir and the Ocean Palace incident:

Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A now goes to Timeline X''
Person A' goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT

Here is what I am saying:

Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A' goes to Timeline X''
Person A goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT

There is the problem:  Person A went to Timeline X'.   But that destination no longer exists.

I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that because the Chronoverse is 5D, changes in time happen in a separate, "real time" (Time Error right?). 
Person A can't travel to Timeline X' and X''.  Much like how Crono can't travel to the new and old 2300AD at the same time.
old 2300AD only exists until Crono defeats Lavos and new 2300AD won't exist until then.

I just think that Time Bastard doesn't need to be applied here.  Time is simply rewritten. No duplicates are created.

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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A single Gate's ability to send multiple people to different times?

« on: November 30, 2008, 05:46:32 pm »

Magus recalls the incident (as it originally happened) and we see them being dragged into separate gates.  A villager recalls the incident as it happened this time around, and mentions them being dragged into the same gate.

Since Crono and Co. changed history, the timeline is rewritten and Melchoir wouldn't be protected by TTI.  But Magus is protected because hes outside of the rewritten timeline. In other words, Magus remembers the incident as he describes it and Melchoir when you first meet him in the game would as well.  But now Melchoir will remember the incident as the villager describes it.  The gate must have sent them to different times, much like the gate in Magus's Castle sent 3 to 65,000,000BC and 1 to 12,000BC.

Actually, that gate would be Time Bastard in action, since in these new events, they weren't in the palace to be dragged into the gates that will sent them to the corresponding eras. I'm sure wherever Belthasar and Gaspar were hiding while all that happened, they too were dragged into black gates like the former two.

Melchior back in 1,000 A.D. will still not know of these new events since he too is like Magus, he only knows about the original events. All four time traveled when it originally happened, meaning they will always appear in those years (except Gaspar by being sent to the EoT will only be once) no matter what future changes are done.

I see the Compendium states that Janus and the gurus were sent to the DBT at the same time their counterparts time travelled. Time Bastard saves the series from the duplicate problem and such but I see a problem:  If Crono and Co. change history so that person X no longer has the opportunity to time travel, why is Person X's time travel preserved?  Lets say that Crono meets Joe in 1100AD and learns that Joe will be sucked into a black gate in his kitchen 1002AD June 1st  8:00pm.   So, Crono goes and finds Joe at 7:55pm outside his house and starts a conversation to stall entrance into the kitchen.  By what I'm reading here you guys are saying that at 8:00pm Joe will vanish in front of Crono because a counterpart who time travelled on a timeline that was sent to the DBT did so at 8:00pm? 

Crono A remembers Joe from 1100AD because his experiences are protected by TTI.  His counterpart who until now has done everything the same way as Crono will reach 1100AD and not find Joe.  Whenever Crono A time travelled to 990AD from 1100AD is when Crono B will go the the DBT.   All I see is a perspective issue. 

Crono A is preserved because he is outside of the affected timeline.  He is what changes the future.
Crono B is not preserved and is sent to the DBT because he is inside the affected timeline.  He is the future that is changed.
Joe A is NOT preserved because he is inside the the affected timeline. He is the future that is changed.
Joe B IS preserved because he is not in the affected timeline.  He is what changes the future.

If Crono went back in time and threw a brick through Joe's window the day before Joe time travelled, would the new 1100AD Joe remember the incident?  Yes.   The old timeline was sent to the DBT  so that when Crono returns to Joe he will find that this version remembers the brick. 

Let's say Paul, a mischievous time traveller, met Crono and Marle in 1002AD.  Paul is also from 1000AD but started his time travelling adventures "after" (referring to Time Error, so Paul would see the new 2300AD if he chose to go there) Crono had saved the world. Then he went back to 1000AD and slipped Marle something in her morning coffee so that she could NOT go to the fair and meet Crono.  This means she can't time travel - but the Compendium holds that this drugged Marle will disappear the exact point of time that the original Marle time travelled, thus foiling Paul's plans.   

really guys? c'mon