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Articles / Let's try taking this a different direction...
« on: June 25, 2004, 01:30:32 am »
I'm new to the site and this particular topic intrigued me since I'm a budding philosophy and religion double major (although a young one, so I'm not saying I'm any sort of authority), so I'd like to throw in a few things here and there, offer some food for thought:
First of all, some of the obvious that I'd like to get out of the way: I'm in no way a relativist when it comes to morality, but it's sheer ignorance to deny that everyone's going to have their own viewpoint of right and wrong, good and evil, and a whole slew of related concepts and issues. This of course, could instantly negate any meaningful discussion on the ethics of Lavos.... and would be very boring and useless. However, I think a good bottom line or common denominator, as well as one of the central issues at hand when rendering judgment, is the consideration of Lavos' sentience, or, more specifically, capacity for moral understanding, judgment, and/or action at or above the human level. Simply put, if we agree that Lavos is a morally capable being, we can at the very least allow that he/it can be evaluated under any moral system one of us lives by. Of course, this is somewhat at issue...
I assert that we can hold Lavos accountable morally at or above the human level, although one of the reasons listed above in favor of this caught my eye. Lavos' effect on Queen Zeal should not be taken as an indicator of it's sentience or moral capability/culpability. Arsenic in my water can kill me; radioactive materials can cause disgusting sicknesses and have various negative effects and even kill me. The point is, materials or things with the sentience of a rock can have detrimental effects on humanity, yet they are still not morally capable things, at least not in the way humans are. While shifting some of Queen Zeal's problems onto Lavos' shoulders can tidy up a few gaps in her character, I just don't think it holds water. After all, is it really so far fetched that her thirst for power and recognition of an ample source of it was the cause of her actions and overall dementia? Hell, alchemy, the process of trying to create gold from other minerals and materials, was invented to try to satisfy a lust for the pretty and precious element, but the gold itself did not cause such thoughts and desires in the humans who wanted it - they created such burdens themselves.
Fortunately, all of this is not necessary to prove Lavos' sentience and moral capability. Consider a few snippets of the CT Script, as taken from the version linked to the Compendium:
Robo: Amazing... It houses all the DNA of every creature that ever lived...!
Marle: It's...humanoid...
It seems like it has collected all of
the vitality from the creatures who
have lived on this planet.
Lucca: Now I understand...
It lives on a planet for as long as
possible, stealing away the most vital
resources...
It combined the DNA it found here
with its own, and gave birth to those
creatures up on Death Peak.
Eventually the young must migrate to
other planets...to repeat the cycle...
Robo: This was Lavos's goal...!
Using the DNA of every organism...
And achieving the ultimate in
evolution!
Frog: This be evil!
Indeed! This thing possesseth the
vitality of all living creatures...
It hath harvested DNA from animals,
only to further its own evolution!
And whilst sleeping, to boot!
I apologize for the length, but I think my point is clear: Lavos has clearly absorbed, assimilated, appropriated - pick any word! - the DNA of ALL living beings on the planet, including humans. I think this is sufficient grounds to prove that Lavos at least has the moral capabilities of humans, and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assert that with all that DNA, we could even put him/it in a class of his own, morally and otherwise.
As it's getting late for me, and the rest of this reply will take quite some time (you'll see why...), I'd like to propose what I've been building all this up to the entire time. If you agree that Lavos can be held morally accountable at the human level, or just want to humor this discussion and myself, why not post on how Lavos can be judged under various moral systems that we live by in the real world? Is Lavos 'evil' under the Judaeo-Christian model? How about in the eyes of an existentialist? Perhaps he/it is the epitome of a being that has grabbed social darwinism by the horns with considerable success until his encounter with Crono et al.? Even if we examine Lavos under one light at a time, I think there can and will still be debate and contention about his/its moral position, so if there are any other philosophy buffs or otherwise interested parties that would like to contribute further, please go ahead and I will try to do so as well during my limited free time.
Thanks to Those Who Made it to the End of this,
Kuja, new guy at the Compendium
First of all, some of the obvious that I'd like to get out of the way: I'm in no way a relativist when it comes to morality, but it's sheer ignorance to deny that everyone's going to have their own viewpoint of right and wrong, good and evil, and a whole slew of related concepts and issues. This of course, could instantly negate any meaningful discussion on the ethics of Lavos.... and would be very boring and useless. However, I think a good bottom line or common denominator, as well as one of the central issues at hand when rendering judgment, is the consideration of Lavos' sentience, or, more specifically, capacity for moral understanding, judgment, and/or action at or above the human level. Simply put, if we agree that Lavos is a morally capable being, we can at the very least allow that he/it can be evaluated under any moral system one of us lives by. Of course, this is somewhat at issue...
I assert that we can hold Lavos accountable morally at or above the human level, although one of the reasons listed above in favor of this caught my eye. Lavos' effect on Queen Zeal should not be taken as an indicator of it's sentience or moral capability/culpability. Arsenic in my water can kill me; radioactive materials can cause disgusting sicknesses and have various negative effects and even kill me. The point is, materials or things with the sentience of a rock can have detrimental effects on humanity, yet they are still not morally capable things, at least not in the way humans are. While shifting some of Queen Zeal's problems onto Lavos' shoulders can tidy up a few gaps in her character, I just don't think it holds water. After all, is it really so far fetched that her thirst for power and recognition of an ample source of it was the cause of her actions and overall dementia? Hell, alchemy, the process of trying to create gold from other minerals and materials, was invented to try to satisfy a lust for the pretty and precious element, but the gold itself did not cause such thoughts and desires in the humans who wanted it - they created such burdens themselves.
Fortunately, all of this is not necessary to prove Lavos' sentience and moral capability. Consider a few snippets of the CT Script, as taken from the version linked to the Compendium:
Robo: Amazing... It houses all the DNA of every creature that ever lived...!
Marle: It's...humanoid...
It seems like it has collected all of
the vitality from the creatures who
have lived on this planet.
Lucca: Now I understand...
It lives on a planet for as long as
possible, stealing away the most vital
resources...
It combined the DNA it found here
with its own, and gave birth to those
creatures up on Death Peak.
Eventually the young must migrate to
other planets...to repeat the cycle...
Robo: This was Lavos's goal...!
Using the DNA of every organism...
And achieving the ultimate in
evolution!
Frog: This be evil!
Indeed! This thing possesseth the
vitality of all living creatures...
It hath harvested DNA from animals,
only to further its own evolution!
And whilst sleeping, to boot!
I apologize for the length, but I think my point is clear: Lavos has clearly absorbed, assimilated, appropriated - pick any word! - the DNA of ALL living beings on the planet, including humans. I think this is sufficient grounds to prove that Lavos at least has the moral capabilities of humans, and it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to assert that with all that DNA, we could even put him/it in a class of his own, morally and otherwise.
As it's getting late for me, and the rest of this reply will take quite some time (you'll see why...), I'd like to propose what I've been building all this up to the entire time. If you agree that Lavos can be held morally accountable at the human level, or just want to humor this discussion and myself, why not post on how Lavos can be judged under various moral systems that we live by in the real world? Is Lavos 'evil' under the Judaeo-Christian model? How about in the eyes of an existentialist? Perhaps he/it is the epitome of a being that has grabbed social darwinism by the horns with considerable success until his encounter with Crono et al.? Even if we examine Lavos under one light at a time, I think there can and will still be debate and contention about his/its moral position, so if there are any other philosophy buffs or otherwise interested parties that would like to contribute further, please go ahead and I will try to do so as well during my limited free time.
Thanks to Those Who Made it to the End of this,
Kuja, new guy at the Compendium
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