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Messages - CelestialPhantasm

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Except this paradox is somewhat resolved by the ideas discussed in the main DS-analysis thread- that the world in which the dimensional vortices exist is a new, revised dimension, created through the "initial" defeat of Lavos and his ensuing fusion with Schala(the idea of causality across time eras and dimensions is rather paradoxical and seems to resemble a 5-dimensional model- time within time) , which is why the vortices as well as a portal to the Darkness Beyond Time in which this fusion has already begun are present.

I was playing today, and I thought it was interesting, what Glenn says upon encountering the Steel Shade.  "Even if you are the real Chrono, we will not allow you to harm ours", indicating that at the very least, the Steel Shade bears a very strong resemblance to the genuine article.

[quote = Magus_Brokenhart]CTDS does an effort to connect CT with CC. They are most likely related.[/quote]

Upon rereading this page, I once again reflected on Glenn's words. Perhaps this indicates more than a mere resemblance to Crono, perhaps Glenn truly senses that it is the real Crono whom they are fighting. If we tie this in with the idea that the party controlled in the vortices is not the most "current" version, but rather a version experiencing the alterations of the original; and if we also incorporate the theory that these Shades are in fact some form of CC's Ghost Children; this could all support the idea that said Ghost Children are indeed future versions (or actual ghosts) of Crono, Marle and Lucca.

Special Event Polling / Re: Further Character Discussion
« on: February 28, 2012, 07:10:51 pm »
Let's not get into "wanting the game to be more like Trigger". All I was saying was I get the appeal in the game, but it could have been done better. Imagine SEEING the time crash, actually experiencing whatever natural timelines/dimensions there were before AND after Belthasar's "accident"/"plan" instead of just after. A main character who reacts a little bit and finds out sooner who his father is by visiting a dimension where he is still dead but his father is still human, and is able to tell him key facts and help him develop as a person and as a character. Imagine being able to access optional different versions of a smaller cast, choose whichever dimension's variation you want on a team, etc. There was a lot of potential to use some really neat ideas and they did great for the time constraints but the time constraints are far more evident in Cross than Trigger. When they made Trigger they made the game that they WANTED to make, and it had universal appeal. When they made Cross it was company commissioned, they just didn't have the same kind of time, support, resources, disc space, you name it, to polish it up the same way before release. In that way, yes, I DO wish Cross was more like Trigger.

While what you say of time constraints being evident in Cross is in some aspects (character development, plot exposition) true, this does probably not pertain to the overall plot and there is no evidence to believe that the exploration of more than two dimensions was/would ever have been planned. I find it cute that your ideas of unrealized possibilities lead you to criticize Chrono Cross, even though it is from the existing plot elements of Chrono Cross that you have these ideas. Of course there are infinite possibilities when one speaks of multiple dimensions, but traveling through two dimensions is already a very rich scenario in my opinion and adding further dimensions is dangerous in that it threatens to bog down the progression of the central plot. It would also be difficult to integrate as an essential plot element in contrast to the "Missing Piece"-principle of the two worlds.

Polling / Re: Magus Magus Magus Magus Magus
« on: February 28, 2012, 06:48:38 pm »
I just think hipster is a funny insult because it covers such a broad range of traits that everybody can be called one, given the context.

It's not like a racial slur, insulting intelligence, or sexual orientation comment. So, all in good fun.

Are you going to call the pre-floating-Zeal non-magic-users Hipsters instead of Earthbound?

It would make a lot of sense.

Polling / Re: Magus Magus Magus Magus Magus
« on: February 27, 2012, 06:29:45 pm »
I didn't recognize the source of the image. Yet, I understood in the context of his post, that tushantin was using it as a representation of his idea of an alternate-timeline grown-up Janus. So, I really do not find it necessary for him to have explained the reference.

Polling / Re: Magus Magus Magus Magus Magus
« on: February 25, 2012, 04:09:25 am »
What actually is a Zeality style death camp fun farm?

Polling / Re: Magus Magus Magus Magus Magus
« on: February 24, 2012, 02:32:30 pm »
I voted for Robo... because you gave me the option of voting for Robo.

That was your mistake.

The strength of Lucca's affection for Crono is made clear in his resurrection scene with Lucca present. As I already mentioned, a strong platonic relationship is almost impossible to maintain between members of the opposite sex- this scene therefore clearly has extra-platonic implications. Even if Lucca can find other guys sexually attractive and had, until the events of Chrono Trigger, been distracted enough from their friendship by her work, Crono remains her closest male friend and it took his death and subsequent return to make her realize how much she meant to him.  She then loses him a second time to Marle and the court of Guardia. She also loses Robo who, at first through his connection to her passion for technology, and then later through his loyalty towards the one who saved his life twice and helped liberate him, had quickly become one of her closest friends.

So, there is a lot going on here. Chrono Cross' added story content is a natural development of this.  If people are to complain, let them complain! Chrono Cross is canon.

maggikarp: This is the first time I have heard this idea of their having different languages. I just assumed that Ayla and the other Cavemen spoke poor Japanese (poorer than the Reptites). It would make sense that they have different languages; however, it seems unlikely that every human around would be able to speak it at all, when the only other persons who speak it are the enemy. Aside from that, Ayla would have first addressed Crono and the others in the normal human language and not in that of the Reptite's.

and Lennis: Obviously it is no character's "fault" that he is the way he is. Ayla's abrupt and questionable development is a direct result of choices made by the creators.

as far as Kino goes: While I am tempted to make jokes about his sexual appeal, there were apparently no stronger men around (which is why he would have become chief when Ayla died), and Ayla may have simply preferred to have someone rather than no one (emotional/physical desires) / reproduce with the strongest available mate (this idea takes on a darwinistic flavor)

To feed my Lucca argument, I will disagree that Ayla has little development with a few key points.

I've already stated my position that she grows a lot during the course of the game. She has to deal with a lot of issues, namely being chief of a tribe that is barely surviving near the beginning of an impending ice age, with a whole other species trying to kill them.

To supplement this, I'll quote your earlier post and bring my point full circle.
The only seeming development on the part of Ayla is in the form of a contradiction- She affirms that the law of nature is: Strong live, weak die. (no change law).  She nonetheless extends a helping hand to the defeated Azala who, according to this law, has lost the right to live.  At the very least this makes Ayla a normal human, contradictory and prone to compassion (or sentimentality if you prefer)

However, it is also often difficult to distinguish between character exposition and character development. Perhaps Ayla always had this contradictory tendency. We don't know.
We do know that the law of nature is also the law of her tribe: the strongest is the chief. If she had a contradictory tendency, she wouldn't be chief. What I mean is the tribe would likely see sympathizing with something "weak" as a character flaw in a younger Ayla (pre-chief status). If she had a consistent habit of letting the weak live and contradicting the tribe's seemingly only law, I find it highly unlikely that she would have ever gained chief status. This leads to the most simple and logical explanation, her mercy/sympathy/pity toward Azala is actually character development. She's learning from the team and they're rubbing off on her.

With most of the characters, especially Frog, the development is more spread out. I posit that Ayla does not have any less development, it's just more condensed. Her screen time is saturated with story.

All we know about Lucca is that she's nerdy, into science, is better at fixing things than building them, and thanks to the red gate, that she possibly blames herself for her mother's accident (though this has no effect on her actions or personality).

One can only speculate as to how Crono and the others influenced Ayla so drastically in such a short time, this is however an interesting idea (through their having spared Azala at their first encounter with her?). I also wonder if Ayla even considered her action as a contradiction. Perhaps she was motivated by her respect for Azala's strength as a leader instead of pity for her weakness. After all, Ayla owed her victory largely to Crono and their other companion in this battle (we don't know how exactly things happened in the original timeline).

The fact that we can have this discussion about Ayla proves to some extent your point about her development. However, I find this density to be very much the problem. She is simple, and there is one contradictory scene that puts this simplicity into question.

Your argument is also rather one-sided. You present Ayla dramatically as a leader of a people on the verge of change etc- which she is. On the other hand, you play off Lucca's character as 2-dimensional by dividing it into pieces without coherency. Lucca has the same struggle of many a creator. She is passionate for her work, and this passion threatens to not leave her much time for human interaction. Nonetheless she is a human and has the same social needs as everyone else. Her relationship to Crono is exemplary of this. Their friendship (and most of us should know that male/female friendships are never completely platonic) seemed to play a secondary role in her life, and it was only through Crono's death that she truly began to appreciate this attachment. Of course, if she would have wanted a more intimate relationship with him, this makes her a tragic figure as this desire remained unfulfilled.

Her relationship to Robo is a fascinatingly ironic facsimile of this dilemma. Lucca is at first drawn to him because he is a machine, and not a human. The irony is that Robo quickly reveals himself to be as human as any other of the heroes. When he consoles her after the red-gate event, it is clear that she appreciates him as a person and a friend more than as a marvel of technology.

After having lost Crono (to Marle) and Robo (to the future), Lucca finds Kid in the forest. By taking up this role of mother and nurturer, she develops a new side to her love of man and apparently finds some kind of balance in her life, dividing her attention between inventing and running an orphanage- thereby filling to a large extent that emotional gap.

So while you are kind of right about Ayla, I feel you hadn't really reflected much about Lucca's character. To be honest, I hadn't either until you proposed this argument.

Special Event Polling / Re: Further Character Discussion
« on: February 13, 2012, 09:33:30 am »
Oh! Excuse my late reply. My very late reply.

Yes, those are two unrelated things, except that they are related in that they are both examples I gave of things I thought would make the game better, which was clearly stated. I understand the developers saw it differently. I played the game. My point is that in Trigger the methods of travel between worlds are slowly but constantly expanding. First you get sucked into a portal. Then you can travel between them. Then you end up in the End of Time as a 'home base'. Then you collect gates to different times that are connected to each other. Then you get a time machine, which does all that AND a bag of fast overworld travel potato chips. In Cross, you find out in the beginning, 'You died in this dimension. But you can still go home too.' and it doesn't really change from that for a majority of the game. It feels very Boolean. Get in boat, or walk on foot on land.

Except that one only gradually understands to what extent the two worlds are different. This larger division of material does not lead to a lack of complexity or diversity in the world of Chrono Cross. It sounds like you simply would like it to be more like Chrono Trigger.

The way I see it, the themes and mood of Chrono Cross can be summed up by the lyrics (if not the music) of one song.

'One way

or another

I'm gonna find ya,

I'm gonna getcha getcha getcha  etc.'


That's not saying much for Suikoden Tierkreis then.
And as far as the details in Cross, I just think they shouldn't have been hidden. Except Greco. He has no place in the Chronoverse.  :(

This hidden element is authentic. In our actual life, you cannot experience all of the possible variations. What you choose to do on any given day and with whom you choose to do it will lead to a unique experience that excludes countless others. Except that with a video game, you have the opportunity to replay it.

When I am playing as Crono, I more or less feel like I AM Crono- I don't really consider this to be "creative license", but I suppose that is relative... However, once he is no longer a mandatory character, he becomes, for me, completely superfluous. I can take them out of the party to have more companions who speak, and yet I am still there.

Otherwise, it works as a concept, which is perhaps why Serge never ceases to be the lead figure in Chrono Cross. Therefore, I don't even find it reasonable to compare Crono to the other characters.

I don't think Ayla's language is the principal problem. None of the characters have an extremely sophisticated vocabulary. More expository and individualizing text could have been conceived for Ayla and subsequently grammatically destroyed- We might have taken it less seriously because of this, yet the content would be the same. Ayla is a very simple character. This simplicity is also part of her charm, yet, as heirs of our western culture which has thousands of years of history of science, art and philosophy (even if many of our contemporaries are not the most cultivated people, Chrono-fans seem to have some level of education and spiritual openness), we have trouble identifying with this level of simplicity.  It also leaves little place for development as the amount of potential development seems to be relative to the existing complexity.  By Ayla's terms, ANY amount of change in her character (the aforementioned contradiction as a possible example) represents a huge development.

Polling / Re: Do you like accents in CC?
« on: February 11, 2012, 08:45:14 pm »
Did they program the accents in so that the same dialogue would automatically change for each character?

...otherwise it would not have technically been more work.

I discovered something dreadful in the french Fan-Translation. Harle and Pierre now insert random english words into their speech! Dreadful! At least the random french words in the english translation corresponded to our stereotypes about harlequins and cavaliers/french effeminacy. Flipping it around makes no sense and made me decide against choosing Pierre for the playthrough...

Polling / Re: Shakespeare vs. Chrono
« on: February 11, 2012, 07:23:45 pm »
I went through a big Shakespeare phase- by big, I mean that I read four plays of his: Julius Caesar, Hamlet, Othello and 12th Night.

Each of these (especially the first three) was a major undertaking and I quickly began to prefer editions with many liner notes so that I could understand more of the connotations of Shakespeare's expressions. I loved his language, much more than the English we speak these days. And while it is true that the plots are often simple or trite when summarized, they provide the context for powerful characterization- I do not see the point in a plot if the script does not bring it and its characters to life. Yes, it is true that Iago's motivations are unclear and seem more like a plot device than anything else. Nonetheless, I suffered for Othello and Desdemona as I saw the former be betrayed in that his heart was poisoned more and more by a trusted compagnon. I suffered myself, really, as I felt helpless to prevent the inevitable tragedy- I suffered, while reading a play in book format- with no background music or images before me. That is powerful characterization.

I love the Chrono series. Cross in particular has a very unique and beautiful atmosphere through the images, music and spontaneity and individuality of the plot and characters. But as much as I am fond of all of that, or of the character of Kid or Glenn or Nikki or Fargo... not one of them is presented as powerfully or as thought-provokingly as Othello or Hamlet.  Not one of them makes a speech as ravishing as that of Marc Antony denouncing Brutus and his followers. Not one of their tragedies cuts so deep and as the death of Desdemona or leaves one with such a sense of futility as that of Hamlet.

However, I would also like to take this opportunity to mention that people who are able to appreciate the plot of the Chrono series have a somewhat rare openness about them. In Shakespeare's time, most if not everyone would have held such a plot for nonsense- and most people today are the same. What, magical kingdoms on floating islands in the dark ages? dimension splits and doppelgängers? It's easy for them to dismiss these things as gimmicky fluff- however, the fans themselves appreciate this inventiveness and the heart behind it.

While a valid point has been made about Lucca- she is still not less developed than Ayla. In the case of both, we seem to have an already fully developed character whose attributes are revealed to us through various scenes in the game. Lucca has the advantage of more screen-time, a stronger connection to the other protagonists (Crono, Marle, Prometheus and to a lesser extent Glenn), and post Chrono-Trigger development (actual development). She therefore, at the very least, contributes more to the development of the others and of the plot itself.

The only seeming development on the part of Ayla is in the form of a contradiction- She affirms that the law of nature is: Strong live, weak die. (no change law).  She nonetheless extends a helping hand to the defeated Azala who, according to this law, has lost the right to live.  At the very least this makes Ayla a normal human, contradictory and prone to compassion (or sentimentality if you prefer)

However, it is also often difficult to distinguish between character exposition and character development. Perhaps Ayla always had this contradictory tendency. We don't know.

Anyway, I voted for Ayla rather hastily before reading your arguments,   :cry: but I don't necessarily regret it...

There's a semiruined future, that doesnt include the Ocean Palace incident in its history, then a superruined future, where they're all down with OP (yeah you know me:P ) then a saved future where they kill Lavos. That's all I meant, there are at least three "futures".

If it helps to reiterate, it goes:
1. No Crono&Co involvement (this one goes off without help)
2. Crono&Co involved but future not saved yet (this one IS the game)
3. Saved future timeline (the end)

OP? ... Opium?!  :o

Chrono & co.'s presence in -12000 doesn't seem to change much at all in 2300 except for the presence of the Black Omen.

Anyway, I think I'm done arguing about this stuff.

Thanks for stopping by. Now go forth, and complete Chrono Shift! I want an excellent story, and no Kefka-music! (I don't really expect you to listen to me on that last point)

Wait, so your whole point of 'loosing TTI' was regarding to the memories and actions in the unaltered time line? Well then, why didn't you mentioned that in the first place? Since I already mentioned how the individual is only guaranteed the entrance to the time line and yet you kept going about loosing TTI and all that stuff. That caused the whole misconception.

I did say so. Look:

Quote from: CelestialPhantasm
The only explanation I can think of, is that one loses Time Traveler's Immunity if one does not continue to actively participate in the events of the 5th dimension. Therefore, since Glenn was not present for the disappearance of the Masamune, he became, after his return to 600, a part of the timeline that was changed, and was changed with it. Therefore, he remembers there having always been a Kasmir since his return to 600, although this was not originally the case. He still has his Masamune and his memories of the way things were before 600, because these were relevant to his time-travels.

Quote from: Gene Wilder
The way I see it, Frog should have kept his memories of being in the unchanged Middle Ages for 5 years, because of the precedent set with Doan in CT, it seems that the changes to the timelines don't necessarily occur immediately, rather sort of like a row of cars behind a red light, when it turns green they don't all start going forward, all wait while the first one starts to move, then the closest behind it, then the closest behind that one, and so on. It's like a ripple in a pond, to which the changes have already been compared in canon.

The two situations are not the same. Chrono Trigger maybe takes place within a week starting at the appearance of the gates. Therefore, let's say that about a week passed in each of the eras in which gates appeared. The Doan whom Crono and co. met in 2300 was encountered within this time. Lavos was also defeated within a "week" if we consider his appearance in 1999 (his presence within the timeline being less clear when one confronts him through the Black Omen). Therefore, if Time is, as you say, a ripple, and the changes should correspond to the relative placement within each era (as I also postulated in my first post), Doan should disappear at the point in 2300 which corresponds to the point in 1999 at which Crono and co. defeated Lavos.

Applying this logic, the change should have been immediate. In Glenn's case, 5 years have passed in all eras, so the situation is a bit different.

Quote from: Gene Wilder with a top hat
The original Frog that was alive for five years in an unchanged Middle Ages who allegedly had TTI is not the same Frog who comes out at 600AD and lives through the changed Middle Ages. They have different experiences and memories. If nothing else that would have been a good opportunity to show the disappearance of a Time Bastard, perhaps, where the original Frog remained and the imposter altered event frog was expelled to the DBT before our eyes.

this would only have made sense if Glenn had, as I proposed above, traveled through time from 605 to meet Crono, Lucca and Marle and been present for the removal of the Masamune. But then, we would have never met the Altered-World-Glenn. As it is done in CE. It is the original Glenn who vanishes and we are left with the new one.

Quote from: Acacia Man
But then why does Belthasar in Chrono Cross arrives in the saved future with no memory of what happened to him in the ruined future? Sure, he later learned stuff but that was after dwelling in the time-space research he did after.

Okay, sure, Chrono Cross is a whole different game, but it is still tied to Chrono Trigger and theoretically or not, the same rules should apply.

Belthasar's change is actually with the concept behind Glenn's change in CE. Since he did not time-travel after his arrival in 2300 A.D., he has no immunity to changes in the timeline.

This does, however, not explain the presence of Doan in the court of Guardia.

Quote from: Willy ****ing Wonka
But, that's still more complicated than it needs to be, to work, it just requires the ruined future version of him to be a TB, in other words, not the original. So he shows up in the "original" semiruined future, pre-Crono&Co, maybe dies maybe not, but then the future changes and Crono gets involved in the timeline, and we have the version of Belthasar that pops out of that timeline. Then he dies but it's ok cause Crono&Co actually save the future and the final version of him pops out, which is really the original being restored?

Impossible. The timeline before the intervention of Crono & co. contains a ruined future (that is why they find it so). The future of the timeline after their intervention is clearly NOT the original, as it is not ruined.

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