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Messages - Leebot

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31
General Discussion / Nothing short of terrible
« on: April 12, 2006, 06:20:16 pm »
So... why didn't they just have the funeral in a Friendly zone that wouldn't tag them for PvP?

Aside from that, yeah, people are jerks on the internet. As Penny Arcade put it:

Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Fuckwad

32
General Discussion / Israeli-Palestinian conflict
« on: April 12, 2006, 04:25:51 pm »
Quote from: Legend of the Past
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Seriously, religion and politics don't mix. They never have.


They have here.

They may seem to mix for a Jew living in Israel, but what about someone who grows up there and turns atheist (or agnostic or Christian or Muslim...)? Religion might not seem to mix so well.

This does make one wonder what would happen to Israel if the Muslim attacks suddenly ceased. In many parts of the world, Jews are quite peaceful, but over there they've been engaged in a non-stop war. A warlike society doesn't suddenly turn peaceful; they'll just find new wars. Look at America after World War II, they kept finding foreign war after foreign war to get involved in. I doubt Israel would be any different. They might even return to the military-messianic society of thousands of years ago.

Right now, Israel looks like the victim, as America did in World War II (remember, they did get attacked before entering the war--though no one would blame them if they got involved in that particular conflict earlier). Remove the war, and, like America, they could easily turn into the aggressor.

33
General Discussion / Israeli-Palestinian conflict
« on: April 11, 2006, 05:53:25 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
None of you would believe me, but no Muslims want war. Period. Except in the "Final Days" context...


Oh, I believe you. I have some familiarity with Islam, and I know that it on the whole advocates peace and tolerance. Judging Islam by those terrorists is like judging Christianity by the Ku Klux Klan.

Why should the observances of these religious people over here somehow overrule the observances of those religious people over there? On whose mortal authority are the peaceniks of Islam judged to be “truer” Muslims than those who believe in bringing war to their enemies? Join me below as I reply to Daniel Krispin’s post…


Well, you kinda missed my meaning there, but perhaps I should have been more specific.

First of all, I did make a mistake in my response. I responded as if it were an "on average" statement rather than the blanket "No Muslims want war." My point is that I don't judge the people who belong to a religion just because others who share the same allegiance commit heinous acts.

Quote from: Napoleon Bonaparte
Men have two levers: fear and self-interest.

Your list of quotes from the Quran (I believe it was) brought this to my mind. This quote does a very good job of explaining why most religions work in convincing people: They pull both levers at the same time. They threaten you with eternal torment if you disbelieve, and offer you eternal rewards if you believe.

34
General Discussion / Perhaps Why Pregnancy Is So Dangerous
« on: April 10, 2006, 02:54:39 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Maybe the woman should be allowed to call for abortion after the birth, like Ms Cartman did  :D Or wanted to, before she realized that Cartman was already in his 40th Trimester...


Personally, in that case, I would fully support aborting Cartman. It's for the good of the world.

35
General Discussion / Gospel of Judas
« on: April 10, 2006, 02:52:24 pm »
Here's what the Bible claimed happened:

John the Baptist criticized the marriage between Herod (the then-ruler of the part of Palestine east of the Jordan, the area where John had been most active in proselytizing) and Herodias, the divorced wife of one of Herod's brothers. After the marriage, Herodias wanted revenge on him. She had her daughter, Salome, dance for Herod. He is so pleased with her performance that he promises her anything she wants. She asks for the head of John the Baptist on a platter, and Herod complies.

Now, here's how historians believe it happened (and as is partially supported by the chronicler Flavius Josephus, the most reliable secular source of the time):

The preachings of John went as such: "One mightier than I cometh--He shall baptize you in spirit and fire: his winnowing fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor, and gather the wheat into his barn; but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire." Decode the metaphor, and it's the same old Zealot-bandit threats against Palestine.

The role of John the Baptist was also clarified as being a Zealot-bandit by the Dead Sea Scrolls. Now, could Herod Antipas have been blind to the threat posed by these bandits? Highly doubtful. When John's followers grew too numerous, he was arrested as a threat to law and order, and executed.

36
General Discussion / Israeli-Palestinian conflict
« on: April 10, 2006, 02:38:50 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
None of you would believe me, but no Muslims want war. Period. Except in the "Final Days" context...


Oh, I believe you. I have some familiarity with Islam, and I know that it on the whole advocates peace and tolerance. Judging Islam by those terrorists is like judging Christianity by the Ku Klux Klan.

37
General Discussion / Perhaps Why Pregnancy Is So Dangerous
« on: April 09, 2006, 10:12:02 pm »
First of all, I completely understand your position, Josh, and I find myself agreeing with you on most issues. But in this, I think you may be committing the "Straw Man" fallacy: Constructing an argument for your opponent and then arguing against that argument rather than their actual stance. In this case, you're saying that these people in the religious right want the fetus to have full adult rights.

Personally, I don't believe any of them are saying this. By saying the fetus should have the rights of a human, they mean the rights a human would get at between birth and two years old. I think, depending on the way you interpret the law, if you confer "human rights" on the fetus, it automatically gets infant rights rather than adult rights.

Now, personally I don't believe the fetus does qualify for human rights at all, at least until the brain starts to develop. At that point, it becomes more and more human up until about age three, which is (I believe) where scientists say the brain fully awakens. Before that point, it's merely the potential of a human, and eliminating it is on exactly the same moral level as cautioning two teens not to have unprotected sex that would result in a pregnancy (well, okay, the latter has a few more benefits as well, but you get the point).

38
General Discussion / Gospel of Judas
« on: April 09, 2006, 09:56:04 pm »
Quote from: Magus22
Umm, Judas did betray Jesus for profit.

It is fact, but only partial to why he did actually betray him.


That's what the Bible claims, but the Bible is known to contain historical inaccuracies (See: The execution of John the Baptist). He may well have been payed, but it doesn't make sense to think he would have done it solely for the money.

39
General Discussion / Gospel of Judas
« on: April 09, 2006, 02:40:24 pm »
Just one little point: Historically, it's known that Judas was a Zealot much like any other militant Jew of the time. It's extremely doubtful he would betray Jesus for mere money (after all, for those who are devoutly religious, would you betray your religion for money?). Why he actually did it, we can't be sure. Those details died with him. Maybe he thought Jesus wasn't militant enough. Maybe he thought he was too militant. Maybe he intended to gain presitige with the Romans and later use it to betray them.

40
General Discussion / Israeli-Palestinian conflict
« on: April 09, 2006, 02:32:36 pm »
You know what we need over there? Separation of church and state. Have a secular nation, and let people practice whatever religion they want. But if we can't manage it in America, no way we'll be able to manage it there. (Canada and certain European countries, on the other hand, do seem to be able to manage it.)

Daniel - Thanks for correcting me there, I was working off of somewhat vague memory of what went on in that time. Thanks for posting that; understanding the actual history should give us all some better perspective.

Now, since you raised a few questions about what I said regarding Jesus, I'll give you a few references that, if nothing else, shed doubt on the Christian claim of history: Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51, and Luke 22:36, all from the Bible, and all quotes of Jesus. I'm not quoting them here as for potentially inflammatory stuff like this, I feel it's better if Christians who might get mad go out and see for themselves exactly what it says.

(And no, I'm not saying all Christians are like this, but some are, so I'm being cautious because of them.)

Basically, these all directly contradict the idea that Jesus was a peacemaker. If they idea of him as a peacemaker was true, why would they have been included? The church had plenty of opportunity to edit it, and would have gotten rid of them if they were false. Now, if he actually said these things, then the rest is probably a fabrication to make him appear peaceful. These were left in because they're true, and there were too many pushing for the truth to omit them. The rest were in because they painted Jesus as a peacemaker.

As for their blaming the Jews--I didn't say it was a very successful attempt. And personally, if the theory of Jesus being a messiah-guerrilla is correct, the fault of his death lies at his own hands. He committed an act of war and attacked a governmental institution, a crime punishable by death. And death he got for it.

A few more corrections to what I said following Jesus' death, after checking some source material: The key here is that after his death, many of his followers had visions of him (probably dreams). The gospels already had the idea of a messiah who ressurects to finish his duty, so they took these as signs that he would come back. This is why, unlike other messiahs who were abandoned after failing, the Jesus cult stuck around. In 68 AD, after a miserably failed war against Rome and the ascent of the two Roman generals of that war--Vespasian and Titus--to the rulership of Rome, the cult changed. It was now more practical to claim to be peaceful rather than warlike; if they were warlike, they'd have been slaughtered immediately. This is the era in which the gospels were written. Of course, enough of Jesus' actual disciples were still living that knew the truth that elements of what Jesus actually said slipped in.

41
General Discussion / Perhaps Why Pregnancy Is So Dangerous
« on: April 09, 2006, 02:03:51 pm »
Actually, Josh, if you interpret it as equal treatment to an infant or toddler, you don't need to give them preferential treatment. As has been said before, if a young child accidentally harms or kills a parent, the law wouldn't hold them legally responsible as they aren't capable of analyzing the situation. The same is true for people with certain severe mental handicaps.

No one is asking to treat a fetus the same as an adult, they're asking to treat a fetus the same as a newborn or toddler--which few would argue have a right to life.

Now, as to whether those have preferential treatment under the law, remember that in addition to lack of culpability, they also lack a lot of rights. It's different, but not necessarily preferential.

42
General Discussion / Israeli-Palestinian conflict
« on: April 08, 2006, 07:05:54 pm »
*shrug* Nowadays, it's just general historical knowledge for anyone who studies that period. (Of course, there are debates from Christian and Jewish historians that this isn't the truth.) I'm not a history student myself, but I read something somewhere that piqued my interest in figuring out what really happened in that era, and this is what I found.

43
General Discussion / Israeli-Palestinian conflict
« on: April 08, 2006, 01:01:33 pm »
I feel I have to enlighten you guys on an aspect of Jewish people that no one seems to know about. The Jews cover it up because it makes them look bad; the Christians cover it up because it makes Jesus look bad.

Throughout the age of the Roman empire, the Israelites were a warlike state. They had originally come to glory under the reign of the king David, who had led a miraculous victory against outnumbering forces ("Goliath") to gain the Jews land. They soon lost most of it, however, and the people then came to believe that a new messiah would rise up and lead them in a military campaign to reclaim their land. Many men attempted to take on this mantle, and all failed. Eventually, the Jewish empire completely crumbled and they lost the remainder of their land.

It was at this point that some of them created a new religion, Christianity. They picked a messiah from the past, Yeshua (or the Greek "Jesus" if you prefer) and colored his actions differently. They claimed he was a prophet of peace, and that his death was the fault of other Jews, not the Romans. This eventually allowed them acceptance into the Roman empire. But that's a sidenote.

My point here is that the Jews originally lost their land through their own attempts to conquer others. They couldn't be content with what they had, and they ended up losing it. So don't judge the Palestinians any differently for doing the same thing.

44
General Discussion / The Friendly Suicide - Euthanasia
« on: April 05, 2006, 02:31:05 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
And whats with "In God We Trust"?

Almost fifty years ago the US was at its height in anti-Commie fervor. Because the USSR was perceived to be atheistic (rightly or wrongly; that's another discussion), the US leaders of the day decided to set this country as the antithesis of the Soviets in every way. So there was a spate of religious propaganda worked into our governmental institutions, such as the "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance (1954) and the "In God We Trust" on our coins (1957).

Sickening then and worse now, because fundamentalists try and use this stuff as an argument that we're supposed to be a Christian nation.


Just one little amusing addendum here: Look at the one-dollar bill specifically. Right beneath the pyramid is the phrase "Novus Ordo Seclorum." Know what it means? "New Secular Order." Don't tell the Republicans, or they'll try to have it removed.

And yes, that's right there, on the same side of the bill as "In God We Trust."

45
General Discussion / Quote Digest
« on: March 23, 2006, 07:56:36 pm »
Quote from: FAILURE
All the above are fictional.... If you want the Truth, read the Jewish Torah.


If you want the Truth, give up. One can never be sure of anything - to think otherwise is delusion. There may be a Truth out there, but you'll never know it for sure. The simple evidence that there are so many contradicting claims of Truth should be enough to convince you not to give them any weight.

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