Messages

31

History, Locations, and Artifacts / About Death Peak...

« on: January 29, 2005, 05:47:53 pm »

I had two thoughts on where Death Peak came from. One, I believe, you and I share:
(1) Death Peak is Lavos's shell. He somehow grew much larger and gave birth to the Lavos Spawn. The environment of Death Peak seems to be a system caves on a mountain (duh) which is sort of consitent with the look of the inside of Lavos's shell before the final two battles. As said somewhere else, the Krakkers on Death Peak are baby Lavos Spawn. A few variations to this include: Lavos is dead now, its shell has now become a breeding ground for more of its type, perhaps now stronger than its mother because of the genetic information gathered on earth. Or maybe Lavos is still alive, "its shell has....on earth", and when it is said the he reigns atop Death Peak, (its possible that the party never reached the top...it is a really tall mountain and they scaled it in what? 20 minutes? That works for the world map but not for the actual locations) perhaps his new form (probably not the core though) sits atop, simply reproducing.
(2) Death Peak is a result from the large amounts of earth thrown into the air when Lavos emerged - if you watch the sequence, you will see huge chunks forced up into the air and suspended - we never see them fall i believe. Death Peak is still the breeding ground for the Lavos Spawn, Lavos may or may not be still alive.

32

History, Locations, and Artifacts / What exactly is the Chrono Cross?

« on: January 29, 2005, 04:57:37 pm »

V_Translanka, I think you're on to something with what you said about the three dragons in each world.  Perhaps because each dimension only has half of the dragons, the dragon tears have only half the power, and both of them need to be combined to gain the full power, which is the Chrono Cross?  And because the Chrono Cross is made from artifacts of different dimensions, it has the power to heal split dimensions, which a fully powered dragon tear would not?

Thanks for all the input.

Yes but there are more than two dimensions, at least one more that we know of (the room in chronopolis with the discussion about Kid and her mates).

33

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 29, 2005, 03:56:38 pm »

Hmm, while reading Rabid Joe's topic about the Chrono Cross, I came up with a theory. It has probably already been mentioned more or less from time to time, but I'm going to rephrase it clearly.

First, here are some quotes about the the "song of life" and the Chrono Cross Element :

--DNA-- -The Seeds of Life- The human body is made up of 50 to 60 million cells. Each of these cells contains genes in the form of DNA. These are the fundamental building blocks that exist inside the cell's chromosomes. They store genetic information that can be passed on from parent to child. The structure of DNA is common throughout all life, throughout all universes. Through DNA recombination, life-forms take on differing forms with variable abilities.

The DNA records are poems and music... Adenine and Thymine... Guanine and Cytosine... Rythm and Melody... Perhaps the DNA of the ones who made contact with the Flame is recomposed by the sound they generate within? I wonder if life-forms are just dreaming in and endless flow of music?

Hey, mister! Is that the Chrono Cross you guys have there? The Chrono Cross... The melody and harmony... It has the power to cross space and time and unify people's thoughts and feeling...  It has the power to transfer memories... By using it as an Element, it has the power to draw on the sounds of the six colored Elements to produce a healing harmony... It has the power to combine the sounds of the world into one melody...

The Chrono Cross... It alone can combine the sounds of the planet that the six types of Elements produce! The melody and harmony that brim within all life-forms... Use the "song of life" to heal her enmity and suffering... We entreat you, Serge! Please save Schala...

As Spekkio says, Lighting, Fire, Water and Shadow are the core components of the universe. But perhaps the living beings are themselves made up of colors which are White, Black, Red, Blue, Green and Yellow. These colors would be based on the 4 first elements, but could be the primary components of life-forms as far as life is concerned. They could be the core units/colors/sounds of cells or something in the body, as the ghost in Chronopolis does describe DNA with 6 stuff : A,T,G,C, plus Rythm and Melody (note the capital letters on those 2 last stuff).

The normal Techs in CC would be colored because they involve living beings using their "living force" (mana? will-power?). The physical Techs in CT would also have to be "colored" with "life force", but maybe nobody noticed it back then since the term "living force" is not an actually deep concept. It is noticed in CC only because it was a religious concept for the Dragonians (it isn't much talked about in Chronopolis for instance).

As for Elements, they would just appear to be some kinds of materialized (or not?) life force.

(Side note : who knows, maybe Elements were used to instill life into robots, so that they on the one hand use Elements, and on the other hand never run out of energy even in the Dead Sea?).

I see this: The specific balances of the CT elements are what make up all that exists in the universe. The CC elements are physical representations of the "sound" given off by the living or 'living' (machines) beings in the universe. This manifestation of "sound" can be found at certain hotspots around the world and are able to be harnessed. As suggested before, these elements seem to be in crystal form, the same crystal form we see towards the end of CC inside Terra Tower.

So both elements can co-exist because their purposes for existence are independent of eachother.

34

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Josh's Magic Guide to the Chrono Series

« on: January 29, 2005, 12:05:12 pm »

Let the Elementals represent the substance of the Entity—that is, of the entire planet’s life-force. Lightning and Shadow embody its essence (genius), while Fire and Water represent its will (numen). Each of these pairs are diametric opposites and provide the world with its living animation, or verve.

Hmm, Spekkio says that ALL things are based on the balance of these 4 elements, so wouldnt the Elementals represent the substance of the universe and not just the substance of the Entity, or planet?

Why did Spekkio say Elemental magic “not exist” as far back as 65 million B.C.? This is a deceptive question, because it does exist in that time, used by Crono & Co. on many occasions, even before Lavos arrives. These guys might be good, yes, but they aren’t creating that magic out of thin air. Instead, perhaps what Spekkio meant is that no one in 65 million B.C.—Ayla included—is able to manifest Elemental magic at the level that it becomes “magic” per se…like trying to teach a gorilla to play Mozart. The fingers are there, but the sophistication is not. Likewise, those 65 million years of evolution have to count for something. Thus, I would posit that only very highly advanced beings like contemporary humans can manifest Elemental substance in the form of usable Elemental magic.

Lavos via the Frozen Flame and his own methods helped mankind through evolution. He is the reason why we can harness the 4 elements. Spekkio said that Ayla was born before MAGIC existed, not the elements. The elements govern the universe, harnessed, they become magic.
I'm not really sure about most of your other points either, they seem either slightly off or incomplete. But I dont have all of the answers so I will leave the "correcting" to someone else.

35

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 29, 2005, 11:38:09 am »

Meh, I guess I can accept the theory of FATE messing with the animals of El Nido. Why? Gods are crazy; just look at Q. Now, there are still the robots in the Dead Sea to worry about; FATE doesn't have much of a hand there.

The other outstanding problem is the new color system in Chrono Cross. If a race is making powerful magical artifacts that store energy, it would seem to make more sense to base them off of elemental forces rather than trying to combine them in complicated ways (as would be the case for Green). Now, if we go back to my most recent theory (different elemental make-up in the Dragonian dimension), we could just say that these were the basic elements in their dimension.

Wait, the dragonian dimension? Ok so the timeline where Lavos never landed on earth right? The way it was "supposed" to happen. As I recall GreyLensman saying elsewhere, the party's techs can be used in the prehistoric era even before Lavos landed. So the CT elements must have existed and governed before then. So even if Lavos had not landed, the primary elements would still be the basic elements of of the Dragonian dimension. So the reason for the existence of the color Green and the like in the elemental system is still hidden.

36

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Spekkio...

« on: January 29, 2005, 11:26:55 am »

In the end, the party doesn't die, but they do sustain damage. If you lose, everyone's down to 1HP. It's the same if any one character dies in battle.

I think the fact that he uses Hallitation is unique since only he and Zeal use the attack. Also, Salt is his one solo Tech claim to fame. And, of course, he can pass on the ability to use Magic to others...although, how unique that is exactly is up to speculation (those of Zeal obviously had to have gotten their Magic somehow).

(1) Are you sure? I seem to remember everyone being completely restored after the battle regardless of the result, though i may be wrong. (2) And speaking of the spell "Salt", does anyone know the Japanese name for the spell? (3) He says that no one was able to use magic except wizards. I assume that he means the people banned the use of magic after the the fall of Zeal. Saying that no one was "allowed", implies that humans in general still have the ability, its just forbidden. After something is not used for an extended period of time, it would be forgotten. So I think Spekkio made the party "aware" of their abilities, or "unlocked" them, so he cannot "pass magic on", nor does he actually teach them magic. In the game menu, before you even see Spekkio, the banners above the characters stats reading either Lightning (Heaven), Fire, Water, or Shadow are there. Ayla and Robo never have these banners because Ayla was born before humans were altered by Lavos and Robo is a machine. My thinking is that the abilities were all there, just hidden from view. If someone could direct me towards an exact translation of this conversation with Spekkio (when the party first meets him), that would be very nice.

37

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Spekkio...

« on: January 29, 2005, 04:28:44 am »

Okay. Let's assume for a moment that Spekkio is who he says he is, God of War. Gods in Roman mythology went along with the flow of time just like any normal person, so Spekkio has been around all through the ages and whatnot. Time eventually comes to an end, but since Spekkio is immortal-God-guy, he's left to his own devices at the EoT.

Now for the pillars of light.  They link to many important time periods of that planet's history. I assume that can't be random; they so conveniently linked to every time needed by Crono and Co. to rid the planet of Lavos, so I think it's a good chance that the Entity put them there.  In all possibility, after time ended, the Entity probably put Spekkio there for the same purpose as the pillars. So if Spekkio is the God of War, and the creation of the Entity, then he's like some sort of Son-of-God type deal, except warlike. And it could be said that he holds the keys to salvation from Lavos, since he unlocks the magical ability of Crono and Co., since without it they wouldn't get very far against Lavos.

ok, understandable enough. however let me offer my viewpoints based on a few details gathered so far that are not pure speculation:
(1) Spekkio refers to himself as the Master of War and says he watches battles from his vantage point.
(2) In the Japanese version, he refers to himself as the "God of War", so he is a god of some sort.
(3) He alternates forms/battle tactics based on the strength of his opponents.
(4) His strongest form seen is a red Nu with all of the strongest spells the characters possess combined, and others not used by the party.
(5) He can use multiple elements with ease, many spells that are apparently not shared with other characters can all be found with Spekkio.
Speculation begins:
(1,2) Spekkio is a "god", created by Gaspar for reasons unknown.
(1,2) Spekkio is a "god", created by the Entity for the purpose of equipting Crono and company with the tools they need to defeat Lavos.
(1,2) Spekkio is a "god", how he came into existence and the reason for his presence are unknown, but he has survived beyond Time's ending and now lives with Gaspar, who was sent to the End of Time via a gate Lavos created.
(1,2) Spekkio is actually a Nu and is bound by whatever laws the Nu exist by, which were discussed my earlier in this topic, but I'm not going to bother listing them out
(3) He can shapeshift, implying no permanent form, he offers to fight the party for practice, and regardless of the victor, everyone comes out unscathed.
(3) Going from what I said above, he has the ability to instantly heal the party or:
(3) Going from what I said above, his attacks aren't "real"; they don't actually do damage, the party just assumes it during the fight, as if "mind over matter" thoughts took over during the fight. One could make this connection to the thought that he is a product of Gaspar, specifically, Gaspar's dreams.
(4) If he does not possess these spells, perhaps he can mimic his opponents understanding of magic, giving him a powerful edge to always have his enemy's best move within his grasp.
(5) He is truly a god, he is all-powerful. or:
(5) He is Shadow-based, but very skilled, so he can use all of the elements just as Magus can [he can sense Magus's power when they meet, he says that Magus could teach him a thing or two. or:
(5) He is a god, he isnt based on any element, he has a perfect balance of all four so he is free to do as much as he wishes with them.

So yea, I think I've covered many of the important details about Spekkio so far, add as you wish of course.

38

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 27, 2005, 09:12:36 pm »

What about the personal techs used by the CC character?
They are Artifacts or what?

What do you mean by artifacts?  Well I believe that the personal techs are skills based on the CT system (no exchange of magic), not dragonian elements at all.

39

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 27, 2005, 08:50:41 pm »

It would be nice if we had a few monsters who carried over from CT to CC.

Perhaps the Pterodacts are supposed to be Dactyls, and the "Tyrano" the same kind of dinosaurs than the Black and Rust Tyranos were?

Yes thats possible. I also just remembered that when you are in chronopolis and look at the map of El Nido before the extra continents were added, Gaea's Navel (where those monsters reside) was already there. Thanks for pointing  that out to me, Chrono'99.

40

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 27, 2005, 05:05:08 pm »

Well, that, and there's a quote in Chronopolis that reads:

The El Nido Archipelago is purely
artificial, created by FATE. It was a remodeling plane that took place 10000 years ago.
A plan to include island, blessed with nature, in the sea of El Nido. The main island of
El Nido, Earth Dragon Isle, Water Dragon Isle, Black Dragon Isle... The development of
Elements, using the energy of the natural world...

This suggests Chronopolis had a role in fostering and developing those manufactured Elements. Since they created them, I don't believe it would be too hard to equip themselves with it, since they apparently do have the capacity for immortality (although in reduced form; those ghosts still aren't entirely figured out).

That could be due to the effects of Terra Tower described in Leebot's alternate theory, I believe.

What if the laws of physics did change? This would have happened during the Time Crash, when Chronopolis and Terra Tower were pulled back to 9000 BC. The travel of Chronopolis wouldn't have these results, but the planet's pulling in Terra Tower just might. If the Elements were the natural way in the Dragonian dimension, pulling Terra Tower over could have caused the laws of physics that governed that dimension to leak over and alter the keystone dimension.

Evolution of major traits (such as the ability to use Elements) doesn't work on the scale of thousands of years, it takes millions of years. It doesn't seem likely that the animals of El Nido would evolve this quickly.

That's true. However, (1) The enemies in CT harness the 4 primary elements discussed in that game, its a fact. (2) The monsters on El Nido look nothing like any of the monsters found in CT, so perhaps these natural elements found in CC are harnessed only in El Nido. (3) Its true that evolution usually does not work that fast in the real world, but El Nido was artificially created and is relatively young, so where did all of those land based monsters live before El Nido was created, I'm sure they didnt evolve to live on the land and I sure dont see them on the Zenan continent. In fact, they wouldnt be taken from the Zenan continent either if it could be helped; Chronopolis could not interfere with the world because it had to preserve itself.
Something interesting not yet noticed: Because the monsters of CT and CC are completely different, its hard to compare them. It would be nice if we had a few monsters who carried over from CT to CC. Lavos seems to be the only example, but hes not really the same as he was in CT. But what about Slash, Flea, and Ozzie? In CT they harnessed the 4 primary elements, but in CC they use Draconian elements. So, what could that mean? Again, I say that in CC, characters and enemies use a mixture magic based on CT elements (individual, non-exchangable techs) and the CC elements (exchangable, common).

41

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Spekkio...

« on: January 27, 2005, 04:40:17 pm »

In the Japanese version, Spekkio himself states that he's the God of War. (See my translation thread in GD)

In the american version he says the same.

No, in the US version he calls himself the "Master of War".  God = definitely not a kosher word with the Nintendo censors of the time.  They started loosening up slightly around Chrono Trigger's era, but it was still put to most of the same standards as earlier SNES RPGs.

Ah yes, sorry. Yea "master" and "god" certainly do have different implications.

Who's to say how big the End of Time is anyway? But, if Spekkio is a god and doesn't possess the ability to travel through time, then after everything else ended he'd be still swimming around in the end of time. Plus, I'd imagine it would be nice to have something tangible to stand on and whatnot, so Spekkio could've found those pillars of light, and created the floor and whatnot at the end of time. I would think being flung into the end of time by a sudden Lavos-portal wouldn't be an exact science, considering they all fell into one portal but ended up at completely different times, so Gaspar could have landed anywhere, and Spekkio found him and brought him to the platform with the time gate pillars.

Perhaps, but that doesnt quite help explain who spekkio is and what he is doing at the end of time. Why would those pillars of light just be sitting right there when he found them? Unless Gaspar has something to do with his creation, I think its reasonable to infer that Spekkio resides at the EoT to observe and enjoy the various battles occurring throughout time. But thats only if Gaspar and Spekkio are completely separate.

42

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 27, 2005, 12:17:36 am »

The monsters in CT that use magic/CT elements generally fall into one of the following two categories:

1. Somehow related to Zeal. The place is flooded with elemental energy, it's not surprising that it would seep into monsters. It might mutate them and allow them to harness it.

2. Mystics. Mystics are somewhat sentient, and they can use CT magic naturally.

This is unlike CC where the common lizards you find around the beach can harness elements.

As I recall (correct me if i'm wrong), humans can use magic because of the evolutionary effects brought upon us by Lavos. I dont remember other monsters being affected by the FF or hearing anything similar.
Also  i have a thought: the elements in chrono cross are interchangable between characters, however their special skills are not. Using your example of forks and teeth from earlier, isnt it more natural to unlock an ability inside of you rather than use a tool from the outside? You can buy sell and trade elements, but those inner abilities are yours and yours alone. Perhaps some of those skills, such a Luminaire and ForeverZero, are magic based only on the CT elements. As for the TD using CC elements, I'm not sure how to explain that, other than it being a game mechanic, but Lavos uses CT elements. Magic based on CT elements seem to emphasize individuality. Then again, i could always be wrong.

43

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 26, 2005, 11:46:47 pm »

Spekkio does say that everything is based on the balance of the CT elements. However as Leebot was saying, if Spekkio has any sort of creation connection to Gaspar, his knowledge is limited as such. Spekkio, therefore, would be able to harness the CT elements like all humans influenced by Lavos and wouldnt know any better.  And now that I think about it, what monsters do use the CT elements? well wait, many of them. Their magical attacks cause elemental damage dont they? You can prove that by wearing the elemental absorbing armors. If they didnt use elements, those armors wouldnt absorb anything.  
So all I'm saying is: (1) Spekkio's words probably dont relate to the issue as he may have some sort of "creation connection" to Gaspar, so his knowledge may be skewed. and... (2) Monsters in CT do harness CT elements as element absorbing armors prove.

44

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Spekkio...

« on: January 26, 2005, 11:19:35 pm »

Nice little If-Then-ish statement you have there. (sarcasm intended-but I'm not being mean )

Then that would be "facetious" or however it's spelled. I don't mean to be a dick, but a friend of mine recently called me on that one, so I thought I'd share.

lol, yes i can be that way sometimes

In the Japanese version, Spekkio himself states that he's the God of War. (See my translation thread in GD)

In the american version he says the same. As long as I dont think of him as a Nu, I can see him as a product of Gaspar. Gaspar asks to join the team at the end of the game. Perhaps he really wanted to "fight the good fight", but his aged body did not allow him to do so. Perhaps he lived out his frustrated dreams of fighting glorious battles (magically, and if he had them at all, I'm going on one shaky quote here) by creating Spekkio, a being who was the king of magical solo combat. It explains why he cannot be harmed by any physical attack, Gaspar made him (somehow) with only magic in mind. I guess the only problem is that the "Spekkio is the dream of Gaspar" theory is not 'consistent' with the "Masa/Mune are the dream of Melchior" theory only in that Spekkio seems to be so limited in movement, while Masa and Mune seem to be independent of Melchior completely now. Though i could see that as the tradeoff for Spekkio's enormous power -- control difficulty and need for control.

45

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 26, 2005, 12:24:10 am »

Or, they might be more natural as they come from the culture that evolved without Lavos' corruption. It's possible the Draconian elements are the way they were meant to be (at least on this planet), while the CT elements are unnatural, and due to Lavos' corruption.

This reminds me of another interesting point: the six elemental dragons. They seem to be the ultimate representation of CC's paradigm. To use the chess metaphor, if we were to find out that a "Chess God" existed, we may start to question whether chess is really so artificial.

But didnt the elements exist before Lavos? I thought only applied magic was created by Lavos (hence why Ayla cant use magic). In order to use magic in CT, you had to either be aware of your innate element, or had to have the ability to use applied magic unlocked. Also, the magic you used had to be of your own element, unless you paired up with someone else.  The Draconian elements seem to have the "just plug it in and use it" attitude. Not to sound completely stupid, but it sounds like the Bulma (from dragonball) solution to harnessing elemental power