Messages

16

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Found! Power Spots are confirmed!

« on: February 15, 2005, 11:18:09 pm »

But by that logic, since a power station generates electricity, electricity can't be natural. I'll be sure to inform the government that lightning rods are unnecessary as the natural world is certainly uncapable of producing large amounts of electricity on its own--certainly not enough to create, say a bolt of energy.

Name an element that is not tied in with the Dragonians and/or Power Spots.

17

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 15, 2005, 10:45:54 pm »

no... it implies that the fully restored Masamune is somehow stronger that the aged version that Magus last encountered, which makes sense - the original Masamune was apparently fragile for a sword - it was very old.

18

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Reconciling the Frozen Flame as Dreamstone

« on: February 15, 2005, 10:37:30 pm »

Dreamstone =
1) absorb Lavos energy
2) used as money, which means at some point it may have been in abundance

Did reptites even use money? We dont know their currency system at all. We do know that Iokans used petals fangs horns and feathers, but they served a practical purpose in making items, so no currency system seems to have existed then.

19

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 15, 2005, 10:07:24 pm »

1) Dreamstone absorbs a freakish amount of Lavos energy
2) Perhaps Lavos energy refers to energy produced by Lavos, not the energy of Lavos, hm let me explain that... Example: Go find a sword that absorbs electricity. Now go find a person who surrounds themselves with this power and go kick their tail. Now go to a power plant and see how much damage that sword does. (not the best example, but it will do i guess)
3) Magus's life isnt that long, so a legend couldnt really exist, unless there was another legend about an unbeatable Mystic before Magus's arrival.

My odd thought: Perhaps Magus doesnt use Lavos energy at all, perhaps Lavos energy hurts him. The only other example of this I see is when Lavos drains him of his techniques at the Ocean Palace.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that Magus can increase his Mag Def.

Yea I like that idea. Perhaps the Masamune/Mammon Machine can absorb magic existing externally (in terms of the body). Not really absorb so much as slowly draw from (otherwise no magic attack could hurt M.Machine unless it overloaded it). Eh, people know what I mean.

20

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Found! Power Spots are confirmed!

« on: February 15, 2005, 09:33:41 pm »

Unfortunately I don't have my Oxford English Dictionary, but this is good enough.

From Dictionary.com:

gen·er·ate   Audio pronunciation of "generate" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (jn-rt)
tr.v. gen·er·at·ed, gen·er·at·ing, gen·er·ates

1. a. To bring into being; give rise to: generate a discussion.
    b. To produce as a result of a chemical or physical process: generate heat.
2. To engender (offspring); procreate.
3. Mathematics. To form (a geometric figure) by describing a curve or surface.
4. Computer Science. To produce (a program) by instructing a computer to follow given parameters with a skeleton program.
5. Linguistics. To construct (a sentence, for example), as in generative grammar.

[Latin generre, genert-, to produce, from genus, gener-, birth. See gen- in Indo-European Roots.]

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

"Ancient lore reveals that
the Dragonites knew of
certain land formations
they called Power Spots.

There they are said to
have used the natural
energy of the planet to
generate Elements."

word replacement time!!:

There they are said to have used the natural energy of the planet to bring Elements into being.

There they are said to have used the natural energy of the planet to  produce Elements as a result of a chemical or physical process.

Well, assuming "they" refers to the Dragonians, Elements were created through artificial means. Unless generate was really the wrong word to put there, they must not be natural.  The Dragonians did "something" and brought the elements into being. Before the "something" occurred, only the Power Spots were there.

21

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Magus's Weakness to the Masamune

« on: February 07, 2005, 11:26:02 pm »

Well I would think that because the Dreamstone absorbs Lavos's power, everytime it touches Magus, it absorbs a little bit of his strength, draining his defenses. But if it doesnt affect Zeal, then I guess that doesnt work....hmmm strange.

22

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: February 06, 2005, 04:20:48 pm »

If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.

I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon  it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.

I don't really see many (if any) of Crono's Techs as being really "wind"-based at all...Slash is obviously a chi-like attack, and the rest are either regular physical attacks or are lightning/heavenly.

The books I saw as just being a little Nu puzzle (wasn't it a Nu that tells you the "secret"?). Water summons Wind. Wind makes Fire dance. Wait...that's something I never really understood...Why the heck does Water summon Wind???

Could be some odd understanding that waves make the wind. Besides giving you the answer to the puzzle, it is probably meant to show the relationship between the elements.

EDIT:

«The Mystery of Life»
   Vol. 841, Ch. 26

   All life begins with Nu and ends with
   Nu...

   This is the truth!
   This is my belief!
   ...at least for now.

Remember when the topic "what if Nu refers to water" came up? Perhaps Water is the first element, the most important. Its a stretch, but considering it is primarily a curative element, it makes sense that it would be the element involved in the creation of the universe or the creation of life or something.
Just a thought.

23

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: About the grandfather paradox

« on: February 02, 2005, 11:12:48 pm »

It has been many times said that it doesn't apply to time-travelers, and that the only controversial thing in CT is Marle's disappearance. Well, I have a theory that would  explain that as well... It is that the grandfather paradox, doesn't apply to those who have travelled to the End of Time, instead of all those who have time-travelled. I guess this would explain why it applied to Marle at the start of CT's story. What do you ppl think?

I'm not really seeing how the connection works, please explain your reasoning.

24

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Fate of Robo [Finalized]

« on: February 01, 2005, 11:38:32 pm »

From what I saw in the PS verision anime cutscene when they met Robo, he was beat up pretty badly.  Anyway, Lucca would have had to have a good deal of knowledge on Robotics to fix him.

They are talking about Robo's fate in Chrono Cross, not Chrono Trigger.

25

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: February 01, 2005, 11:16:16 pm »

Magic is a threat to Lavos, but he does not perceive it as such. He allows humans to hold magic for a long period of time, its all about attaining perfect evolution for Lavos, to use a planets living resources, find what is best, and give that to itself. If the mystics ever did acquire magic from a source outside of themselves, it was most likely Lavos.

26

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: February 01, 2005, 09:51:35 pm »

Hmm, I wonder what makes the Mystics so special. Must be influence from Lavos.  "Lets see which genes are stronger..."

The only magicians we see in Frog's time are mystics (excluding Magus). I have come up with two reasonings as to how the mystics acquired magical abilities: (1) After the fall of Zeal they became free of servitude. As the humans abandoned magic, they embraced it as a way to eventually overrun their former masters.
(2) When Janus arrived in the Middle Ages, he taught Ozzie how to use magic to save his own life, promising that the mystics would be able to defeat the humans with ease. Eventually his fully developed powers allowed him to assume leadership of the mystics.

So i guess (1) is closer-ish to being correct. Modified: (1) After the Fall of Zeal, Lavos, seeing the humans as a failure, began his gene experiments on the Mystics, giving them also the ability to use magic.
(2) Mystics could already use magic, after the fall of Zeal Lavos, seeing the humans as a failure, increased this ability (or let it evolve on its own overtime). This evolution could not be impeded as the humans had little power to stop it. Eventually the Mystic population increased and true rivalry began between the the mystics and humans. Only Lavos could really benefit from any outcome of the war.

27

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Definition/Use of Dragonian Elements

« on: January 31, 2005, 08:17:45 pm »

I guess this is the place where we talk about what these elements really are and how they are used in Chrono Cross. I'll start:

My (initial) Definition: Dragonian Elements are crystals created/found/modified by Dragonians using the power found in the earth. Certain hotspots in the world can be used to 'harvest' these elements, which come in a variety of forms, all having a certain use. These elements come in six colors/sounds, all of which correspond to an innate color of any living being or the innate colors of any certain environment. Some of these elements are consumable, Tablets and Medicine, are common examples. They have a certain effect that can only be used once, however they seem to be found in greater abundance than non-consumable elements. Non-consumable Elements can be used once during a battle, but apparently require 'recharging' because they cannot be used again in the same battle, usually.

Use/How to Use: Elements are gathered and equipted on a characters "grid". I do not know exactly where this grid is located on the body if it is in fact a physical location at all. In battle, equipted elements can be used by first attacking enemies and building up your "Element Level". So these crystals need a small source of energy in order to be activated for use. Element Levels exist because most elements need more element levels to be obtained before they can be activated. There are three types of attacks, weak attacks which require little energy by comparison and are not very bold, strong attacks which require normal amounts of energy and are made with confidence, and fierce attacks which use the most energy and are usually very daring. These three attacks influence the element levels by adding 1,2,3 levels respectively after successfully made. There are eight elements levels - as you ascend levels the elements become stronger. Most elements can usually be used at lower/higher points in the grid, but will become weaker/stronger after doing so.
During battle a person attacks enough to use a simple element such as "Uplift". The elemental crystal is now activated and the character chooses to use it. They strain a bit, usually being drawn into a semi-crouched position with a small circle of energy radiating from their feet and around their body giving off the color of the element being used. I do not know whether this is "drawing energy from the field", "drawing energy straight from the earth" , "drawing energy from oneself", or "drawing energy from the crystal element" but afterwards the person has full control of the properties of this element - A small piece of earth rises from the ground, moves over to the enemy, and drops on it with considerable force. After the elemental attack ends, the element becomes unusable for the rest of the battle because it must recharge.
Apparently these non-consumable elements can recharge infinitley, however their power source confuses me: The energy given off during battle seems to power them, but they require "start up" energy from another source first. Perhaps the planet slowly revitalizes them after battle, im not sure.
You could say that enough energy needs to be built up in oneself first to use the elements, so thats why element levels exist. but you could also say that the elements require enough energy to be built up first within themselves before they can be used: both still dont answer my question about the original power source.
While in battle, the "field" (which records the last 3 element colors used) is the final determinant of the strength of the element used. So we have 3 power sources for the elements:
(1) The start up/rejuvination source (planet??)
(2) Battle action
(3) Field condition

This is all i can think of right now. add some stuff people

28

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Magic Article Begins

« on: January 31, 2005, 05:08:38 pm »

A. Definition of Magic
B. History of Magic (Who taught in Zeal)
C. Spekkio Discourse
D. Definition/History of Elements
E. Character Abilities
F. The Magic Study (Magic and Characters in CT/CC)

How does that sound?

Pretty good, I would just like to make a few additions to see what we are specifically looking for. this isnt how i "think it should be done" Think of it as a question. For example: Spekkio Discourse, well i dont think trying to define exactly who he is is really important to the magic article, so i wouldnt think that would be in there. hopefully somebody understands what i mean:

A. Definition of Magic
   1. What it is. (ex: 4 element manipulation etc)
   2. How it is acquired/used (ex: Lavos, teachers: gurus, spekkio etc])
B. History of Magic
   1. Zeal
   2. Mystics
   3. Time Travelers
C. Spekkio Discourse (speaks for itself)
D. Defintion of Elements
   1. What they are. (ex: crystals, represent 'sounds' etc)
   2. How they are acquired/used (ex: Hotspots on earth, easily traded)
E. History of Elements (fuzzy on this one...)
   1. Dragonians
   2. Chronopolis
   3. El Nido

The last two (character abilities and magic study) seem sort of similiar. So i dont know what to do with those exactly.

I dont know if this was really beneficial to the article, im just trying to help by trying to find a better understanding.


EDIT: just and additional thought: my whole angle here is to help us define exactly what we are looking for so we can ask those specific questions immediately and debate/discuss the answers. You said it yourself, ZeaLitY: These threads lead to disorganization.

29

Magic, Elements, and Technology / Spekkio...

« on: January 30, 2005, 03:22:17 pm »

It's stated within the game that the Zealians got their magic from Lavos through the mammon machine, and before that they got magic from the sun stone.  

And after the fall of Zeal, no one who used the mammon machine to get their magic were able to use it anymore.  They weren't forbidden to use magic, they couldn't use magic. One of the former Enlightened Ones says something along the lines of "We Enlightend Ones have lost our magic. No distinction remains between us and the Earthbound Ones anymore." (not sure on the exact wording, but it was something along those lines)

[Woman]
   A few «Enlightened Ones» did survive.
   But no distinctions remain between the
   «Enlightened» and the «Earthbound»
   anymore.

That's what it really says. Janus, despite having exceptional powers, probably had little more knowledge than any normal Enlightened One. All of them had their powers unlocked through Lavos and extensive research - some where simply stronger than others. The only exceptional magicians who survived the fall of Zeal were the Gurus, Zeal, Janus, Dalton and (sort of) Schala. Lavos evolved human beings into potential harnessers of magic, so the Enlightened Ones can still use it. They used the Mammon Machine as a power source, probably to create powerful items, weapons, materials, and to keep their continent afloat (i doubt anyone on earth had the power to keep that thing in the air permanently)

30

Magic, Elements, and Technology / An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

« on: January 30, 2005, 12:07:44 pm »

I'd say his magic enables him to project a head shield of some sort.  Either way, he's got a fail-safe.  A special layer of shell would work, but given that Lavos can engineer lifeforms, he'd probably have modified it to where it at least grows back so he can maintain maximum resistance against attack.  However, I don't think he'd like the wait time, which is why I think a magic shield is more likely.

Wait the time...hes going to be there for millions of years, he has time. Perhaps the only purpose the Spawn have for having a super dense shell (try damaging it, sheesh) is so they can survive their initial impact on a planet and burrow into its surface. Afterwards, they begin absorbing the power of the planet, make genetic manipulations to achieve greater evolution, etc. and grow another hard shell to help them burrow back to the surface and begin reproduction.
Shouldnt we put this in a "Life Cycle of Lavos" or "Evolution of Lavos" topic thing instead of discussing it here?

EDIT: didnt feel like double posting, so im going to add this.

You are strong of will...!

   That's why the Old One let you
   through.

   Long before you were born...
   ...there was a kingdom where magic
   flourished.
   Everyone there could use it!

   But in time, people began to abuse
   their powers. It got so bad that no
   one was allowed to use magic except
   wizards.

   But you have it...determination, I
   mean!
   Magic needs power of the heart.
   It needs inner strength.

   Magic is divided into 4 types:
   Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.

 Ok, so at some point, somebody restriced the use of magic to only a certain few. I believe the people after the fall of Zeal decided that magic can only lead to more segregation of individuals, so they abandoned it.

Be that magic you use?
   I hath heard only magicians wield it
   now.

The only magicians we see in Frog's time are mystics (excluding Magus). I have come up with two reasonings as to how the mystics acquired magical abilities: (1) After the fall of Zeal they became free of servitude. As the humans abandoned magic, they embraced it as a way to eventually overrun their former masters.
(2) When Janus arrived in the Middle Ages, he taught Ozzie how to use magic to save his own life, promising that the mystics would be able to defeat the humans with ease. Eventually his fully developed powers allowed him to assume leadership of the mystics.
 

That's the biggest toy I've
   ever seen...
   Hey, you're not alive, are you?!

   You've got great strength, however,
   since I can't measure your inner
   character, I can't give any magic to
   you.

   But your laser weapons will suffice.
   They can inflict «Shadow» type
   damage.

Apparently, assuming Spekkio could measure his inner character, Robo would be able to use magic. Unforutately I cant find the conversation between Spekkio and Ayla, but Spekkio states that Ayla cannot be given magic because she was born before it existed.


 

Not just magic, but
   EVERYTHING is based on the balance
   of these 4 powers.

Luckily this quote (and the fact that Crono and co can use magic in 65 mil BC) shows that magic was not created or brought to earth by Lavos, but the ability to harness the four elements  without any physical device (such as a crystal like in CC) did come to earth with Lavos in that no creature on the planet had this ability until afterward. (dont be confused though, the power could be harnessed, which is why Crono and co are able to do it)