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Messages - NimmerStill

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I don't think the Zealians, including Melchior when he got to 1000 AD, had any knowledge or clear reason to believe that Lavos would someday awaken and wreak havoc on the planet. They may have known it was still sleeping underground, although even there, they didn't necessarily know that it would continue to live for thousands more years; in any case, just because it continued to live underground wouldn't necessarily mean there would ever be a "day of Lavos" to worry about. So that could explain why Melchior didn't think there was anything to warn anybody about.

As for the Lithosphere Investigation Report, I assumed it came from a dimension, similar to the keystone dimension I guess, where people knew about alternate timelines and knew that Lavos had the potential to awaken and destroy the planet, but that in that timeline it had been stopped, perhaps by Crono and co. But perhaps there's a solution where the report comes from a dimension unaware of such things, where the Day of Lavos either happened or it didn't; I'm not sure how that would work.

I guess a related question is: Was the FATE that Miguel was talking about the Home World version of FATE? And is that the one that says ""I Love you so so much, that's why sometimes I want to smash you to bits..."". That's what I've been thinking.

Chrono Compendium Discussion / Re: Encyclopedia needs Editing
« on: August 18, 2022, 02:21:47 pm »
The entry for Luccia contains the sentence:
She met Luccia during her time on the mainland; the two exchanged notes and dialogue about a variety of subjects (Lucca even spoke to her of the Epoch).

Should be "She met Lucca".

(cross-posted from TV Tropes)

After the battle with Garai, Radius says "Perhaps Glenn will take on that role, now that Dario is gone." But this is Radius from Home world, and in Home world, Glenn is already gone, lost in the Dead Sea expedition. (Furthermore, Home Dario turns out *not* to be gone, but Radius doesn't know that.) Is Home Radius referring to the Another Glenn he just learned exists from Serge? Or does he believe Home Glenn might still come back? Possible, but a strange remark either way.

I've been trying to see where in the text the game actually says that FATE killed(A)/tried to kill(H) Serge for the purpose of trying to release the lock on the Flame and disable the Prometheus circuit. Based on what I could find, which is the same quote from Ghost Crono that a lot of people are quoting, I think an alternative interpretation is possible.

Quote from: Ghost Crono
   Ten years ago, it was Lynx
   who tried to kill you at
   this beach.
   After Prometheus broke the link
   between FATE and the Flame,
   FATE tried to eliminate any
   obstacle that stood in its way!


   The elimination of the
   Prometheus circuit's lock
   on the Frozen Flame was
   everyone's top priority!


   Lynx and Harle abducted
   Lucca, who alone could
   release the Prometheus lock
   that guarded the Flame...
   But the whole attempt only
   ended in failure.
   Then, they just waited for
   you to appear instead!

So it seems possible that FATE/Lynx never thought that killing Serge would release the lock. For that, they were relying on the first plan, kidnapping Lucca and making her do it. The killing of/attempt to kill Serge was merely to "eliminate any obstacle that stood in its way", meaning they could see that Serge would become powerful enough to challenge them later.

In this interpretation, when the Lucca plan failed they must have breathed a sigh of relief that they *hadn't* succeeded in killing Serge (at least not in both worlds, which FATE now knew was enough since it knew Serge would eventually cross dimensions), since the Serge body-swap plan was now FATE/Lynx's only chance to release the lock on the Flame.

This is, of course, unless there is more text in the game that I missed that makes it clear that the drowning was indeed intended to directly release the lock on the Flame. Does anyone know? Search terms only took me so far.

Although if they had their memories erased, how did they retain the knowledge of Lavos that they recorded in Fort Dragonia?

A few wild guesses.

Knowledge of Lavos was available from the mainland starting at least in 1000, when Crono and crew were wandering around having come back from the future. But the Dragonians must have gone extinct long before 1000.

The knowledge was also available in 600, even without Crono and crew, since Magus knew roughly what it was, and could have spread that knowledge to his Mystics, who then might have talked to the Dragonians. But it doesn't seem likely that Magus would know the details of Lavos descending in primitive times, and its effect on evolution.

So this is a puzzle. I'm not sure I see how even retaining their memories from Dinopolis and the Reptite future should have afforded the Dragonians this detailed knowledge about Lavos, since Lavos didn't exist in that Reptite timeline.

Alternatively, is it possible that the message that Serge receives in Fort Dragonia Home doesn't come from the Dragonians at all, but is instead a psychological experience Serge goes through as part of his transformation, given the knowledge *he* gained about Lavos in the Dead Sea, and just catalyzed by the Dragon Tear?

The support for what we call the Polis War is this:

   Dinopolis was drawn into
   this dimension's past about
   ten thousand years ago...

   This was done so that it
   would serve as a counter-
   balance against Chronopolis,
   which Lavos pulled here.

   Needless to say,
   a fierce battle ensued...

   In the end, Chronopolis emerged
   as the victor, and the Reptite's
   fortress was sealed away by FATE...

As for whether it was voluntary, I got the impression that it wasn't voluntary on the part of the humans *or* the Dragonians. FATE was just that powerful; by then it had apparently overpowered its own Chronopolis citizens, perhaps as part of Belthasar's plan or perhaps because the Chronopolis workers had entrusted too much of the operations of the city to FATE during the war.

Either that or perhaps, in contrast to the Dragonians, the Chronopolitans, being time specialists, *did* care about not mucking with the timeline, and voluntarily submitted to be memory-wiped.

I'm skeptical of that; I can't imagine every single worker there volunteering; some would have to be forced, either by FATE or by their fellow workers. But either way I agree that the Dragonians wouldn't have. But FATE had the upper hand on them, Chronopolis having been victorious and all.

I'm wondering if anyone has any theories one way or the other on whether, when FATE erased the memories of the Chronopolis workers to populate El Nido, it also did the same with the surviving Reptites emerging from Dinopolis before populating El Nido with them, now known as Dragonians.

Since the text of the game does not even directly support the identity of the Dragonians with Reptites, it's unlikely that there will be direct textual evidence for the memory wipe question either. But we can make guesses based on the available evidence and theories.

One reason to assume that FATE *would* have wiped their memories is that if FATE is going to do so with the humans, from FATE's own dimension, one would assume that FATE would certainly do the same to its former enemies, the Reptites.

Support for the idea that FATE *didn't* wipe their memories might be the Dragonians' extensive knowledge of elements, and their eagerness to start the cult of the Dragon God(s).

But perhaps those things were rediscovered by the originally memory-wiped Dragonians. And after all, it seems that at first, relations between humans and Dragonians were quite friendly, which you might not expect if one side remembered the Polis War.

So on balance, perhaps we should say yes on the memory wipe. But does anyone else have any thoughts?

I like this, well done.  My only problem is that if this happened, we would not have the wonderful game known as Chrono Cross.   :wink:

I don't know about that. Chrono Cross could be very slightly rewritten to be almost the same.  The Time Crash could still happen, but truly by accident. Therefore FATE and the Dragon God(s) would still drive events from the point of arrival of Chronopolis and Dinopolis until the present as they do in canon. The storm that sends Wazuki and Miguel off course and compromises FATE's access to the Frozen Flame could just be a storm, rather than Schala intervening. I'm not sure what causes Serge's alive vs. dead status to cause a split in worlds, but it could still happen. Kid could still exist, and just be a different person, but with the same motives as in the game. And the game could pretty much proceed as is, except much less exposition by Belthasar (if he's there at all), and no Time Devourer at the end; the fused Dragon God could simply be the final battle.

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Dragon Gods and the Time Devourer...
« on: February 03, 2020, 07:49:34 pm »
I suppose, but then what stopped them from merging once again? Did they require the Frozen Flame, since they sent Harle to steal it? Or was that just a trophy they took on top of destroying FATE?

Perhaps the former: perhaps the Frozen Flame was required to "break the spell", so to speak, of splitting them that FATE had cast.

The alternatives to this scenario that I can see, the ones that keep the splitting up of the Dragons and the sealing of their powers as one event, are:

A) It was back when the Dragon God was one that it was worshiped as a god, and when it was split up and sealed was when it began to be forgotten.

or B) It was the split *and* sealed Dragons that were worshiped as gods.

Both of these have problems.

A) is contradicted by Belthasar's aforementioned quote that the Sea of Eden was where the Dragon Gods, plural, resided. It is also contradicted by every other mention of the history of the Dragon Gods by people in El Nido, who never mention a former state where the Dragon God was one. A case in point by Direa:

Quote from: Direa
The gods that represent
   each Element are called the
   '"Dragon Gods."'
   Since they symbolize the
   powers of nature, they are
   also commonly referred to
   as the '"Gods of Nature."'

If the glory days of the Dragon God's power, and hence its worship, were when it was one being, then those most devoted to their religion should retain some cultural memory of that state when it was one. And indeed, if the instant they were split, their power waned, then that state should be downplayed by the devotees, rather than glorified.

B) is, as stated before, at odds with Belthasar's statement that when FATE sealed away their powers, that was the beginning of the end of their recognition as gods and their influence over most of the people of El Nido. There's this aforementioned quote by Belthasar:

Quote from: Belthasar
But then FATE sealed away
   the Dragon Gods' powers, in
   effect becoming a god itself.
   Thus the islands where the
   new godhead, FATE, existed
   came to be called the
   Sea of Eden instead.

And a little later:

Quote from: Belthasar
At that moment, the seven
   Dragons who had been
   rendered almost powerless
   and forgotten...

So these two quotes really seem to cement the idea that the Dragon Gods' relevance to the people of El Nido was contingent on them having their powers, at least most of them.

On balance, B) seems a bit more plausible than A) (and after all, the Dragons still pack a punch against the party, even when their powers are supposedly sealed), but if we take Belthasar's exposition seriously, then my alternative to both of these, namely that the splitting preceded the sealing of powers by several generations, seems most consistent with all the text of the game.

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Dragon Gods and the Time Devourer...
« on: February 03, 2020, 04:01:58 pm »
Yeah, this whole thing is confusing. In terms of FATE as a godhead, I interpreted it as that FATE subconsciously influenced people, perhaps through the Records of Fate, to worship the *concept* of fate as a god, not FATE the supercomputer itself.

But that still doesn't explain why they regard the enclosed southeast as the Sea of Eden; they shouldn't know that anything of importance is there, and fate as a concept wouldn't be located anywhere.

Of course, given what the Sage and some others have said, there are apparently a lot of spooky properties of the area, though "Sea of Eden" wouldn't be the first name one would come up with just based on that. We might have expected it to be called the Dead Sea all along, in both worlds, if people were basing their ideas on poison leaves, seagulls avoiding it, and the like, but that isn't the case.

However, regards this:
Quote from: Beach Bum
Also, if FATE split up the Dragon God without sealing away its powers, there's no way it would have not immediately retaliated.

I'm not sure this is as much of a problem. We could imagine that FATE had a certain amount of power over the Dragons so that they wouldn't/couldn't retaliate, but either didn't have enough to seal their powers, or FATE simply hadn't thought of that yet, or perhaps FATE *wanted* people to worship them as gods for a time. Not exactly narratively satisfying, but could be plausible.

There seems to be a lot to sort out with respect to the origin of the Dragon God(s), and FATE's role dealing with them and shaping the history of El Nido.

We know that the Dragon God, as one entity, originally came from Terra Tower:

Quote from: Belthasar
The Dragon Gods were originally
   a singular plasma life-form...
   ...A living accumulation of the
   planet's energy!
   Originally it was a biological
   machine used to control the
   powers of nature in the future
   society of the Reptites.

And we know that the Terra Tower went back in time to, standardly for the Compendium, 12000 BC. So that's a baseline for how old the Dragon God(s) could be (in the timeline of El Nido).

And then, as we know, there was the Polis War: Chronopolis and Dinopolis battled, Chronopolis won, and
Quote from: Belthasar
the Reptite's fortress was sealed away by FATE
. We also know that then, FATE created some islands in what was earlier almost entirely sea, erased most of the Chronopolis workers' memories, and populated the islands with them.

But we also know that at some point, this has to come to pass:

Quote from: Belthasar
Originally the whole
   Archipelago of El Nido
   was known as the
   Sea of Eden.
   This was because it was
   where the Dragon Gods

So first of all, where we are right now in the chronology, still around 12000 BC or a few years after, the archipelago as such is just now coming into existence. We also know that there were no Dragon Gods at all before this time. So the situation where the whole Archipelago of El Nido is known as the Sea of Eden has to start sometime after this. But that state of affairs has to end before this happens:

Quote from: Belthasar
But then FATE sealed away
   the Dragon Gods' powers, in
   effect becoming a god itself.
   Thus the islands where the
   new godhead, FATE, existed
   came to be called the
   Sea of Eden instead.

So, what exactly causes El Nido to be called the Sea of Eden, and what causes it to stop being called that, after which the term only refers to what we call the Sea of Eden in the Game?
Well, Belthasar is clear on the second part: the rest of El Nido stops being called that when the Dragon Gods lose their powers. So it stands to reason that the beginning of that stage would be when the Dragon Gods first begin to establish themselves as the gods of the area, with their powers.

So there must have at least been a significant period of time between the Time Crash and when FATE sealed the Dragon Gods' powers. In question is what time between those two events FATE split the originally one Dragon God into the six gods of nature. But it seems, at least, that there was a significant amount of time between that split, and the sealing of their powers, because Belthasar says that the Sea of Eden was known as where the Dragon Gods, plural, resided.

But one assumes that FATE couldn't even do the splitting until it had an upper hand on the Dragon God, presumably after Chronopolis's victory over Dinopolis. One wonders why FATE didn't at that time instantly also seal away their powers, instead of waiting what seems to be several generations (enough time for them to be established as gods). But, there are possible explanations for that; perhaps FATE hadn't thought of sealing their powers yet, or didn't deem it necessary until they continued to show hostility toward FATE and/or humanity. Or perhaps, as part of Belthasar's plan, FATE wanted there to be a period where the population of El Nido worshiped the Dragons as Gods.

There is also a question as to exactly who knew El Nido as the Sea of Eden. Was it just the residents themselves? Or did people from the mainland refer to it as that as well? If it's the latter, then that means the results of the Time Crash are already affecting the history of the mainland, which FATE wouldn't like so much, though that could influence its subsequent decision to seal away their powers.

And meanwhile, we don't know exactly what role the surviving Reptites, which as per Compendium theory are ancestral to the later Dragonians, were playing in this. One assumes that they were at the forefront of the push to worship the Dragons as gods, but the details of how this first happened are unclear.

And there's still the question of when in all this the Dragon God was absorbed by Lavos:

Quote from: Belthasar
That thing...
   the '"Dragon God"'...
   is only a quasi-existence...
   ...A temporary form that
   the real Dragon God uses
   in order to appear within
   this dimension.
The actual Dragon God
   was consumed long ago,
   in the distant past...
   Integrated by the entity
   known as Lavos in a time
   on the other side of the
   dimensional darkness.

Presumably, this event has nothing directly to do with FATE's sealing of the Dragon Gods' powers. Perhaps the absorption happened first, and that somehow made the sealing easier, but FATE is not directly an agent of Lavos, and so it seems unlikely that the sealing and absorption were one and the same event. Also, the absorption is referred to as applying to the one Dragon God, whereas the sealing, as stated and as we've established more clearly, applied to the already split Dragon Gods.

Ok, now I will propose a possible chronology given these established facts. There are still some unsatisfying details and gaps. Note that as a possible solution, not all of this is directly supported by the text or by established Compendium theory.

Possible solution chronology:

  • Time Crash: both Chronopolis and Dinopolis are pulled back to 12000BC
  • Polis War: Chronopolis and Dinopolis fight
  • Some time during the Polis War: the Ocean Palace incident occurs, and a gate similar to the one that got Schala opens and swallows up the Dragon God (currently a bio-machine). No one notices this, because the Dragon God is powerful enough to project a quasi-existence back into reality, almost as powerful as the original. Subsequent references to the Dragon God(s) or "biological machine" refer more properly to this quasi-existence.
  • Polis War: Chronopolis is victorious
    • FATE erases Chronopolis workers' memories, creates the main island, populates them with the former works
    • FATE notices surviving Reptites, and erases their memories too. (We'll call them "Dragonians" now.)
    • FATE notices their former biological machine, known later as the Dragon God. FATE decides to split it up into six "gods of nature", creates new islands for some of them, and allows the Dragonians to live on these islands, but allows for migration back and forth
  • Time passes; subsequent generations of both humans and Dragonians notice the power of the Dragons, and begin to worship them as gods. Humans and Dragonians (and perhaps local Mystics and other species) begin to mate, and thus Demi-humans are born.
  • Eventually, word of these Dragon Gods, their powers and their (presumed) benevolence spreads even to the mainland, who join the residents of the El Nido area in referring to the El Nido Archipelago as the Sea of Eden.
  • FATE becomes concerned about the Dragon Gods' growing influence, as well as being concerned that they might regroup their powers and oppose it (FATE) again, and so seals the Dragon Gods' powers away, forcing them to hide in the deepest reaches of their territory, inaccessible to most humans, Dragonians, or Demi-Humans.
  • The Dragon Gods then begin losing their influence, and FATE, subtly through the Records of Fate, offers itself up as an alternative figure of worship.
    • At this point, as Belthasar says, the designation "Sea of Eden" changes to refer to the southeastern area where Chronopolis hides.
    • The Dragonians and Demi-humans hold onto the old religion longer than most humans, though the humans of Guldove also hold on to echoes of the old ways.
    • The humans of the mainland especially begin to forget about the Dragon Gods. Their descendants, when they begin to colonize El Nido, have completely forgotten about the them. When they hear about the legends of them again, they are completely dismissive.

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Dragon Gods and the Time Devourer...
« on: January 31, 2020, 05:22:18 pm »
Ok, so Belthasar says:

Quote from: Belthasar
Originally the whole
   Archipelago of El Nido
   was known as the
   Sea of Eden.
   This was because it was
   where the Dragon Gods
   But then FATE sealed away
   the Dragon Gods' powers, in
   effect becoming a god itself.
   Thus the islands where the
   new godhead, FATE, existed
   came to be called the
   Sea of Eden instead.

So I guess it has to be that first FATE split up the Dragon God into the six, and then FATE sealed away their powers. And for El Nido to have become known as the Sea of Eden *because* the Dragon Gods lived there and, at the time, still had their powers (it is implied), there has to have been a significant amount of time between these two events, the splitting and the sealing. Wow, this is confusing. Because just a few sentences later, he says, as Beach Bum already mentioned:

Quote from: Belthasar
FATE divided the
   one Dragon God entity up into
   6 weaker plasma life-forms...
   Then scattered them across
   the land and sealed them away.

Which seems to imply that the splitting and the sealing were basically at the same time. But I guess it doesn't quite say that. And this still doesn't take into account when the "real" Dragon God was absorbed by Lavos and the quasi-existence became the thing that FATE was dealing with. I'm going to start a new thread about this.

The Darkness Beyond Time is a repository of timelines nullified by time travel, right? So it seems likely that the Lavos that went there and became the Time Devourer was the one from the original (Lavos Timeline) 2300 AD (or slightly before or after, but not before 1999 AD). That doesn't, however, explain how Schala went there, since she's not from any discarded timeline; the portal she fell through was just "special", I guess. It could work for the Dragon God though, maybe.

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Dragon Gods and the Time Devourer...
« on: January 28, 2020, 01:04:45 am »
Now that last part is confusing, and the only part that mentions Lavos in relation to the Dragon God. I take this to mean that in 12,000 BC, both Chronopolis and Dinopolis manifested in the world, war ensued, Chronopolis won and defeated the Dragon God. Perhaps at this time, the Dragon God was discarded to the Darkness Beyond Time, where Lavos was also currently residing. Thus explaining how Lavos could "integrate" the Dragon God.

The only thing this then leaves unclear is what exactly it was that FATE split up into lesser plasma life forms. Perhaps some remnant of the Dragon God that remained in the physical world. The game is a little vague about this.

If we take the 12,000 BC date for the Time Crash seriously, then perhaps it was an effect of the Ocean Palace Incident that the Dragon God got sucked into the DBT. Perhaps the timing was such, somehow, that just as Schala was being absorbed into the DBT, so was the Dragon God for some reason, and there that trio of Schala, the Dragon God, and Lavos merged to form the Time Devourer.

But as everyone has said, this is very unclear and incompletely explained. Why was it those two specifically that were absorbed into the DBT? Also, subsequent discussion of the Time Devourer tends to describe it as merely a merger of Lavos and Schala; the Dragon God's membership in this conglomerate doesn't seem to be mentioned again, despite the fact that Belthasar said that the Dragon God was "integrated by the entity known as Lavos", which really seems to mean that the Dragon God should have become at least as integral a part of the Time Devourer as Schala was.

And there is also the question of the timing of the real Dragon God's absorption into the DBT versus FATE's actions to split up and seal the Dragon God. I was assuming before thinking thoroughly about it that the sequence was: 1) Chronopolis defeats Dinopolis and hence FATE defeats the Dragon God, 2) The real Dragon God was absorbed by Lavos, leaving the quasi-existence, and 3) FATE splits up and seals away this quasi-existence. But other orderings of these three events are possible given the evidence we have.

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