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Site Updates / Re: The Month That Could Have Been: Bonus Footage and Credits

« on: July 15, 2009, 11:38:01 am »

Sorry for the mass of quotes.

But I have to disagree on King Zeal's lines hugely; I found them really stylish, and I never particularly felt that he was just tossing words around to seem impressive (see Prophet's Guile, where Magus does just that while posing as the Prophet). It's probably due to KZ's upbringing in a royal environment.

Queen Zeal and others from Zeal surely had the same upbringing. I didn't see any sudden eloquence from them. :\
Though that's really the least of my complaints with the writing for him.

With regard to the puzzles, I wonder if the gameplay videos didn't quite do justice to those. The Singing Mountain drum, especially, was a real treat for the player when experienced first-hand.

About the puzzles... They are a lot more engaging while actually playing them. Watching anyone do puzzles or riddles in a video game - be it via youtube or your own tv - is always boring. But, pick up a controller and play it yourself, and it's a whole different experience.

I think that's a fair point. I think a couple of them (that I can't name off the top of my head) seemed indefensible regardless of participation. But others like that drum one; it's hard to say.

What was your opinion on the new techs Vagrant? Ayla's out of character? Glenn's too powerful? Should they have just been kept the same as in CT?

I've got to be honest, due to skipping through battles the only new techs I've seen/remember were Magus' steal and Frog's Braveheart. (the latter I quite liked) Any others I saw, only once or didn't know who did them or whatever. (I remember something with planet in the title?)
I couldn't really comment on the gameplay balance or anything unless I'd played it though.

Nicely written, Vagrant, but I'd have to disagree with you on most of those points. I haven't watched all the videos yet (shame on me), but during beta testing I don't think I ever got lost. I can remember three parts specifically where I had to actually ask for help, and two of those were side quests. Mind you, this was during beta testing, so those issues were going to be fixed anyway.

Really? I didn't know where the player was supposed to go to continue the game a number of times. Particularly on the world map. And the person doing the videos seemed to lose track of where to go a couple of times. (my detective skills tell me this was presumably FaustWolf)

As for dialogue and personality, King Zeal has to be one of my favourite villains in any game. Again, it just feels so much more intense when you're actually playing it. You could look back on any game after you've finished playing it and find that the villain was lacking, even if you were especially moved or impressed by that villain while playing the game. For example... Starcraft. My favourite game ever, hands down. Yet looking back on the dialogue or personalities, many characters are overly dramatic or take actions that seem unnecessary. Just about every good game has cheesy dialogue, but it's fitting when you actually play it.

Excluding the Sephiroth effect when I was young; I've never really had that. :\
And I've watched a couple of games on YouTube and still managed to rate good story and characters okay.

The praise King Zeal has gotten from some people really confuses me. KebreI praised him too. It's very possible that in my skipping and given my poor memory, I've missed or forgotten something. But his motivations and his actions simply didn't make sense to me.

As for Magus: I'm a fangirl, no two ways about it. Yes, he had some cheesy dialogue ("Death is nothing to the reaper!" for one), but he had cheesy dialogue in CT, too. He was always being dramatic, gruff, and threatening towards other members of the party. As an optional character he didn't get very many big lines either, so I think the CE team did well with what they had to go off of. I probably would have hated this game if they did Magus wrong, so that I'm still defending it speaks loads

Cheesy and dramatic is fine. Like I said I'm okay with lines like the reaper one. My problem was with the lines that were so out of character such as his little speech about being space aliens in the reptite timeline. Magus doesn't go on like that, and is unlikely to come up with a lie to get them out of possible trouble. Especially when his usual attitude is to fight anyone that gets in his way.

The difficulty of the game is something that was brought up many times by many people during beta testing. The reasoning behind this choice is that so many people complained that Chrono Trigger was far too easy. It was refreshing to be challenged by monsters. Marle's solo chapters were the only ones that I went out of my way to skip battles in. But, because of that, I had to grind for a few minutes in Lucca and Robo's future timeline to make up for the missed EXP. The only other grinding session I took was in the Zeal Ruins? dungeon (forgot the name) for TP to get everyone's final techs. I only ever used a team of Magus, Marle and Crono when I got to choose, so everyone else was pretty far behind in TP and I needed to see their techs for testing purposes. If not for that, I wouldn't have bothered.

I think it would've pleased most everyone (and not just the people that complain about difficulty) if it simply matched Chrono Trigger's difficulty. Moreso if you take into consideration how difficulty in RPGs is kind of optional. I mean,  if a player skips fights and is underleveled, they have instant difficulty. If there's an extremely powerful tech and they're wanting a challenge - they don't have to use it.

(Pfft, I say "actually" too much.)

I didn't notice.

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Site Updates / Re: The Month That Could Have Been: Bonus Footage and Credits

« on: July 14, 2009, 04:11:39 am »

I've only just checked the Compendium yesterday for the first time since about the week of the C&D. I've spent then and today watching all 90 youtube videos of it and I've come here to have my say on it. Addressed to those that made it.
Couldn't see any kind of general CE topic anywhere, tried searching. So I guessed I'd use the most recent newspost on it. Don’t know if this should be moved anywhere or have its own topic.

Word of warning; this is going to be harshly phrased. No sugar-coating. (and I'm sure people aren't going to like me for this) I’m treating this as I’d treat an actual game upon review. This, if anything is a testament to the dedication that went into making this behemoth.


Okay, the gameplay design is bad. It kind manages to ruin Chrono Trigger’s great systems.
Ridiculous amounts of dungeon crawling in dungeons that don’t matter. Oh great, more monsters in another canyon or something. It was almost all just filler and had no point to the plot. I mean, the fact that Lucca and Robo’s reptite future time had ANY dungeons is just stupid. End to end dungeons as well!
CT had a good balance, this was just ridiculous. It was a chore to watch and skip through on YouTube, never mind actually play.
Dungeons should only really exist when they have a reason to be there in the plot, or because you need a quick one to break up a gameplay segment or build up to something. They shouldn’t just be there for the sake of length.
The DBT also really didn’t need a dungeon. It’s un-Chrono, it’s a pain and it’s a chore. (though it did look damn good)

And this ties in with all the boring gauntlets of fighting. You just kept throwing random monsters at the players.
The difficulty is also ridiculous. It shouldn’t be any harder than Chrono Trigger was if it’s meant to appeal to the fans. I mean, hell, I was watching a new game+ that tried to avoid battles and it not only seemed difficult, but now I'm entirely sick of the CT battle screen.

The puzzles were often badly designed too. In fact, the game design overall is kind of awful. Aside from all of the above; there was a lot of moments where they player could get lost. And things like that maze of random battles, or the frog catching minigame being higher pressure than all the fighting due to the timer and competitive nature of the sequence.
And the fights you can’t win till NG+ being replay value? It’s not. It’s just bad design.

Had Crimson Echoes been released, I honestly wouldn’t have finished it. I can tell. Providing I didn’t get stuck, I’d have gotten bored and ended up watching the cutscenes on YouTube anyway.

Though the fact you had to rely on Chrono Trigger itself for design doesn’t help. Repetition and an inability to create detailed new time periods and such. Limits the scope and meant that it maybe shouldn’t have been so long.


Now the story and some general thoughts from while I was watching.

Good writing was very occasional. I did think you got the weird tame Woolsley CT humour down pat. But it loses it the further you get in the main story, and NPC dialogue just eventually becomes meaningless references to stuff one of you likes. However, I did like a lot of the cool references and nods to CT and CC though. Particularly at the beginning.

I like the portraits. They’re a different style but they work.

Magus is a completely different character. I'm no fanboy and don't need him to be a badass. I’m okay with him losing a fight to Dalton or being all “the reaper fears nothing” before comically passing out.
But he was fairly quiet originally. And aside from one very Magus-y line in the Frozen Flame trial; you had him coming out with some ridiculously ridiculous crap in this game. I remember cringing particularly at the “we’re space aliens” part and the “hello! Dark innate, here”

I also think Schala and Magus reuniting kind of spoils the purity of his mission and drive to find her overall. But it’s not too big a deal, I suppose.
Would’ve been nice if Schala had a personality though.

I understand the reasoning for Crono not being mute, but I never saw him say one line that either mattered or couldn’t have been said by someone else. He even seemed to have lines that just seemed out of character. And by mute standards!

Thought the early violence/death changes were handled well. Death is still Chrono-style, but to have Crono cut down that Porre guy at the beginning like that would've been way too harsh for the hero. And the villain faking death seemed like classic CT humour.

There were lots of boring bits. Magus’ (after being captured by Dalton) and Marle’s (when thinking about Ann Guardia) life flashbacks were missable, for example.
But a lot of the original stuff involving meaningless conflicts and groups like the Vanguard and the like was just yawnworthy. I’m not sure Kasmir ever needed to exist. Just all seemed like more excuses for pointless dungeon crawling. The bizarre and/or forgettable names didn’t help. I just kept wanting the main story to go ahead.
Maybe if they were just sidequests I would've been okay with it.

King Zeal was a fantastic idea for a villain.
But first of all, it was way too obvious it was him as soon as you saw the name in the battle with Magus. You should've gone straight for the reveal when he appeared.
However, the big problem is that the writing for him is really crappy. I’d like to be more polite than that, but his lines are corny and he never makes much sense. His motivations and goals throughout are weak and even at the end he just seemed to be a dick.
And I can't take "the aresh kaddah" and the burning of Lavos seriously at all. That all just came off really stupid.
As did his ridiculous MY SUPER POWERS CONSISTENTLY SOMEHOW INCAPICITATE FOUR OR SIX PEOPLE THAT CAN ALL BEAT LAVOS.

Frog's speech change I didn't really have a problem with, except that there seems to have been no point to doing so. He never says or does anything particularly "kickass" or anything that he couldn't have said with the polite medieval speech. It's barely worth mentionting but it just seemed an odd choice.

The scene with Crono killing those two reptites on discovering Marle's deaths was just badly handled.
An interesting idea though. Maybe if a mute Crono had reacted and killed them all with the same animation. Cut the awful "I have a family" line and have Magus say the good line about how it won't matter once they change the timeline anyway.

Although it made me uncomfortable (in a well done kind of way), I liked the idea of the reptite world timeline and it’s end. Marle’s death and Lucca and Robo’s future. And it all being swept away by Crono’s overriding the timeline.
I thought that was a pretty good storyline, but thought that, for example, Marle and Lucca’s segments should’ve had zero dungeons and only one boss fight. (because the Dragon God computer thing was pretty cool)

The Neo-Epoch looks great. Totally matches CC. I was very impressed.

Ayla was harshly neglected in this.
And killing Kino is very questionable, especially doing it in that manner. Though Frog's affection toward her is an even worse decision. By the ending it was just...What were you thinking?!

Constant Deus Ex Machina with the Frozen Flame is annoying, but that is true to Chrono Cross, I suppose.

I concur with the video notations that the touch with the lights and the use of the Undersea Palace tune was working to great effect with King Zeal. But his awful lines and in that sequence his making that horribly long dungeon rather pointless...Not so much. Simply finding the old Masamune isn't really much of a reward for the dungeon crawling and the puzzling.

By this point I’d noticed how the plot had slowly been getting worse and was devolving into a bad fanfic. Especially around that awful rise of Zeal sequence. Crono’s return and the conversation with Zeal and just...Ugh.

Also, have I missed or forgotten something? What's with all this "planet's dream" stuff?

Ayla had some nice lines in her Frozen Flame 'trial' thing. But I did find the entire trial sequences boring and pointless.

Massive changes you made in time in the original game didn’t have consequences like in this. The whole having to have that Choras guy die just seemed really untrue to Chrono Trigger.
(also some of the hazy memories I have on Chrono Cross' split realities and the Darkness Beyond Time have me questioning some of the time travel logic, but I'll trust you guys know better than me on that one)

I'd expect it from Belthasar, but I also find it very questionable how a lot of the heroes talk like they've been reading Chrono Compendium articles for the last five years.

The pre-final battle conversation was nonsensical, inane, and pointless. The writing for King Zeal never fails to be terrible. And it becomes clearer that; he's just a dick. (I mean "Porridge of emnity" come on!)
A lot of the writing had this, even one person's notations at the end contained the same vague attempts at being deep, in the most shallow way possible.

The final boss looked great. As did the unused sprite of it. How come the stomach thing didn't get put on?

Exploring characters return to their times is completely pointless.  The original game only showed you how the future changed because it's the only thing that would actually change after the last boss. They didn't need to piss about having you exploring all the places you’ve already seen, talking to people whose new dialogue consists entirely of "Hi, welcome back."

King Zeal's return at the ending was stupid. It undermines the player’s actions. And it’s pure Marty Sue writing.

Balthasar was CHALLENGED by the Frozen Flame to do his ridiculous Chrono Cross plan? Unless I’m forgetting something from CC that seems to make no sense.

Do we never see the Masamune after Dalton takes it? This seems weird. I expected a setup for Chrono Cross in there.

I actually really liked the "Chrono Break" lines. Clever and a nice way to end. (though Gaspar’s cheesy fade killed the moment for me)

For a labour of love by such dedicated fans of the Chrono series, especially those that understand the story in such detail, I don’t get how a lot of these decisions could have possibly been made. I mean the best example is that for all the attention to detail, Magus’ personality is practically not in the game. Not to mention the many easily fixed plotholes.
At the end of the day, I’d loathe to accept any of it as canon.


Either way, I do have to say that overall the scope, size, detail and just the entire technical side of all this is incredible. I mean, the game is huge. And despite technical limitations you managed to come up with some great new areas and sprites and the like. The polish was also remarkable. The ambitions at work were massive and in this sense, I think you reached them. I have to congratulate you on that. I've never seen a fan project like this. Considering the effort and work put in, and the fact that it obviously would’ve satisfied some people, I do think it is a shame it could never have been released.
If you ever worked on another rom hack again, it’s something I’d look forward to seeing.

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Polling / Re: If you could change Chrono Cross, how would you do it?

« on: December 08, 2008, 05:17:27 am »

For (2) I would propose even the NPCs from CT (Gina, Gaspar, Melchior, King Guardia, Fritz, etc.) would appear, not just those from the Seven (Crono [YES, TEAFLOWER VAGRANT, CRONO] and the rest).

For the record, the reason I'm against Crono returning is because he needs to stay mute, and it just doesn't work if he isn't the main character. And I'd rather he wasn't, in a Chrono Cross(esque) plot.

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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Name plot holes for Chrono games.

« on: December 06, 2008, 05:46:48 am »

Well, I think it was said in the script that the transformation into Lynx took 4 years, and that Wazuki was "corrupted" by the Frozen Flame but not driven "mad" by it.

Serge made contact with the Frozen Flame in 1006 A.D., but Wazuki didn't transform into Lynx until 1010 A.D. and only then did he attempt to kill Serge at Opassa Beach. I think that is compelling evidence to suggest that Wazuki was in his right mind at least for the trip back to Arni Village, and probably for most of those 4 years too (although a slow descent into madness is likely).

Ah, I see. I'll have to take your word on the four years thing. But yeah, that seems fair enough.

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General Discussion / Re: Chrono Trigger Composer Never Heard of Rick Astley, Robo's Theme Completely Orig

« on: December 06, 2008, 02:53:49 am »

Seems like it's real.

Quite funny too, but yeah. I think it's coincidence.

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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: The story of Chrono Cross (and some other ramblings)

« on: December 06, 2008, 02:12:58 am »

maggiekarp, I definitely agree with your friend on it being "pointlessly incoherent for nothing". It just seemed to be weird and complicated for the sake of being weird and complicated.

My biggest problem is best illustrated with these examples:
The Dragon Tear (when placed in the top of the Dragonian Tower and surrounded by the dragon statue things) lets the bad guy swap bodies with you and it lets you get a new version of your old body.
And the shards of the two Dragon Tears when placed on those things in that place in the middle of nowhere makes a Chrono Cross that abstractly unifies time and people and stuff.

Actually I think that the function of the Chrono Cross is much less abstract than you might think and directly related to the function of the Dragon Tears. It was mentioned in Chronopolis (taken from an interpretation of quantum physics), that it is different observers actualizing potential phenomena that cause there to be separate dimensions. The Chrono Cross unifies the consciousnesses of people, as explained by Crono in Terra Tower, thus unifying the dimensions. This function is directly related to the original function of the Dragon Tear of transferring consciousness/memories between individuals.

I wrote a thread about it along with a simpler explanation for Cross' ending but no one seems to give a damn. I personally think it's much better than the Compendium's ending analysis. :

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6439.0

The Dragon Tear didn't just transfer consciousness/memories between people though, did it? I mean it gave Serge a new body and let Lynx keep his old one. It comes off more like a generic magical plot device to me.

I think you could be on to something with the function of the Chrono Cross in the ending there, but the story has so little closure I find it hard to commit to any of the theories particularly. :\

The ending to Chrono Cross no doubt could have been written better, along with the delivery in most of the story, but the complexity of the story itself and the mysticism of it is what attracts many (including myself) to Cross.

That's interesting. Personally, I'm all for a game that encourages some discussion, but I kind of think Chrono Cross takes the piss.

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Polling / Re: If you had to...

« on: December 06, 2008, 01:52:50 am »

After their roles in the story are complete, Frog, Ayla and Magus are all fairly expendable.
The original three should definitely stay. Robo's sensors and scientific ability make him pretty useful. The rest are just sort of there.

And I'd probably want to keep Ayla around because she's part of my ultimate fighting teeeeam.

I only used Magus when Crono was deaded, and I like Frog more...So I think I'll vote Magus.

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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Name plot holes for Chrono games.

« on: December 06, 2008, 01:49:34 am »

I thought Wazuki was driven mad by the Frozen Flame. Even if FATE got to him later through the Records or something, surely he wouldn't have been in a state to return Serge anyway?

Well, in the Chrono world; the dinosaurs built castles, so humans simply existing isn't too much of a stretch, haha.

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Polling / Re: Who is a worthy match for Crono?

« on: December 06, 2008, 01:46:22 am »

Well, I was really just responding to the poll. It's pretty much impossible to argue whether Luminaire would beat Omnislash or whatever.

Both of them are driven protagonists who are statistically the most powerful of their respective allies. PLUS SPIKEY HAIR!

Cloud gets the edge because he's got Jenova cells and Mako pushing him beyond the norm, and could have the right Materia setup while Crono wouldn't even have his double techs...

So, that's my justification for it.


Oh, and Sonic would totally beat Mario. XD (he's faster and can recollect his rings. Mario's done for after two hits)

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Polling / Re: Who is a worthy match for Crono?

« on: December 05, 2008, 07:38:23 am »

'fraid I went with the ol' Cloud Strife. Similarities and badassery and whatnot.

But FFVII Cloud. Not emo Cloud from the Compilation. I'm talking about the Cloud who was about to make his way to the centre of the planet to fight a demi-god with his band of world-weary adventurers and uttered the phrase "Let's mosey."

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Polling / Re: If you could change Chrono Cross, how would you do it?

« on: December 05, 2008, 07:28:27 am »

I voted Other. I'd want a completely different story. The only things I'd really want to keep would be a resolution for Schala, the idea of going to an alternate world where you had died and the idea of the "dead" timeline.

My other choices in order of priority from what was there would've been:
1. Fewer playable characters altogether -- a Final Fantasy VI-size roster can produce just the right balance between variety and character development.
2. Greater involvement from the CT crew -- especially Crono, Marle, Lucca, Magus, and Robo.
3. Eliminate all the funny accents.

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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / The story of Chrono Cross (and some other ramblings)

« on: December 05, 2008, 04:29:46 am »

Hi, I'm new here. I've been a fan of Chrono Trigger for ages and have frequented the Compendium many a time throughout the years, I've enjoyed reading a lot of the articles and I'd call myself a fan of the place.
Weird thing is I've never played Chrono Cross. I basically just used the Compendium to roughly get the story of the game. Never could get emulation to work either.

Anyway, with all the new stuff coming from CT:DS, it motivated me to watch Chrono Cross on YouTube. (I'm a student with a lot of time to kill)

For the record I quite like the music (though some tracks are just annoying and I imagine no one who played the game would ever want to hear the battle theme again) and agree that it couldn't be called objectively bad.
Again, I don't know about the gameplay. I can only presume it's very good for the game to have this much of a fanbase.
I don't fall into some kind of category of hating the game because I couldn't play as Crono or Magus or whatever. And I know the game wasn't "loosely" linked to CT or whatever and that CT set everything in this game up. (though I do consider it a minor flaw that only Lucca and Schala are directly linked to CC)

But I'm sorry, I think that it is one of the most poorly written stories. Ever.
(yes, I realise this isn't going to make me any friends here)

My biggest problem is best illustrated with these examples:
The Dragon Tear (when placed in the top of the Dragonian Tower and surrounded by the dragon statue things) lets the bad guy swap bodies with you and it lets you get a new version of your old body.
And the shards of the two Dragon Tears when placed on those things in that place in the middle of nowhere makes a Chrono Cross that abstractly unifies time and people and stuff.

The vagueness, the strangeness, the needless complexity, the complete lack of logic and the blatant Deus Ex Machina just really sums up the entire plot.
It's not just a case of suspension of disbelief, it's the unecessary specificity of it all.

The French Jester is a secret dragon and was created by the plasmic quasi existential entity of the Dragon God who is a natural machine from an alternate future (who was also apparently consumed by Lavos years ago) and was divided into six weaker Dragon Gods and sort of sealed away across two universes by an evil AI trying to protect humanity and somehow the Dragon Gods knew and created this secret Dragon during an electric storm when the AI was knocked offline?
And the electric storm was created by Schala reaching out to Serge hearing him crying from the Darkness Beyond Time before she started fusing with Lavos who was also there for some reason in an attempt to survive and become the Time Devourer?!

The Frozen Flame literally just disappears after all of that?

Terra Tower magically rising out of the sea and then it's strange transformation?

The Dead Sea in general? I've read the analysis on it, but there's so much conjecture and ambiguity it's ridiculous.

Not to mention the ending with Schala's little equally nonsensical essay on humanity and further ambiguity leaving the fans scrambling to figure out what happened with the main characters.

Then there's thing the Compendium did actually complain about, like the scenes having no emotional impact first time through because you don't know what the hell people are talking about, coumpunded by Serge being the most annoyingly mute character since Half-Life 2 and his not asking anyone. Instead of asking anyone in Arni about his death or his mum about what happened all those years ago he decides to just follow the villains for no real reason?
About 40% of the main plot and all of motivation behind the entire story is revealed literally seconds before the final boss fight. Including that Belthasar engineered all of this incredibly convoluted nonsensical bull so you'd be strong enough to fight the last boss? "Oh and remember that bad guy from disc 1 who had the head of a cat? He was your dad!"

Then there's the many useless characters that can join you. "Well, I've got nothing better to do, so I'll help you save the world BY RISKING MY LIFE AGAINST FOUR BILLION MONSTERS WHILE I'M ARMED WITH A BOOMERANG!"
There's even further illogical nonsense with some of them. Mushroom man? An idol that comes to life? An alien that actually features in the main story but has no links to say...Lavos.

And so many boss fights caused because of a misunderstanding or to "test you" and then after the fight they're all "You're alright. I trust you now."
(The "testing you" boss fight should really only ever be used once per video game)

Not only is it bad storytelling, but it's a bad story in general. I'll say that there are some good ideas, the the dead timelines and humanity versus nature, evolution, etc. But I don't think any of these things were explored properly.

I just wanted to put this out here because I haven't really ever seen this expressed by other people that have criticised Chrono Cross. And I'm interested to hear from the people who like it, especially those that think the story is a strength of the game.

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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Name plot holes for Chrono games.

« on: December 05, 2008, 03:39:00 am »

Apologies if these have been mentioned or if I've missed something, but how did Serge get back from Chronopolis after the Frozen Flame healed him?

And how can the Frozen Flame have evolved humanity when in Chrono Trigger, they were seemingly fully evolved before Lavos landed? Ayla and her people may have had simple language and understanding, but surely that's cultural and societal rather than evolutionary. Ayla seems to comprehend and learn no less than everyone else from different times. Even if humanity did evolve from Ayla's people, Chrono Cross seems to imply a much larger evolution...

Also, I think a lot of people when complaining about plotholes in Chrono Cross are thinking more of plot devices and the like.

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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Want a new Chrono game?

« on: December 05, 2008, 03:28:59 am »

Given the state of Square-Enix for the past several years, I wouldn't want them to make a new Chrono game.

Unless they could get the old Dream Team back together, but I don't see it happening.