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Messages - killercactus

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Well, technically, yes. But remember that is because the ones to first live in El Nido were the people of Chronopolis, which mostly were from the mainland, and it took thousands of years for the people of the mainland to discover and travel to El Nido.

Serge's family comes from the former group.

Right, but I guess what I'm saying is that if Serge in CC is the same Serge from RD, just in a different dimension, Serge can't be a descendant of the Chronopolis workers because Chronopolis wasn't there in the RD dimension.  If he isn't, it takes away any "genetic engineering" Belthasar could've done to Serge's descendants.

I see, it was just the flame. Still, it was lucky for them to end up there. They could have as easily ended up in any of the three surrounding islands, totally ruining the whole thing.

Right, which is kind of why I assumed that someone meant for them to turn up there.  It's definitely part of Belthasar's plan to have FATE go after an Arbiter, so someone has got to touch the Flame for that to happen.

Also, thanks for the RD correction - I had forgotten Schala was teleported straight to 1000 AD and that Serge was from the mainland.  That's very interesting though, if we try to wrap Radical Dreamers into all of this...  is Serge's family possibly from the mainland in Chrono Cross?


True. But for that to have not been the more-original timeline, there would have needed to have been additional changes to the past. That is, in the more original timeline, Chronopolis gets sent to 12000ish B.C. The future changes because of that. From what the game seems to indicate, Serge's born in the first new-timeline after the Time Crash, gets bitten by a panther demon, comes in contact with the flame, and eventually gets offed by his father. For that to not be the timeline Belthasar would observe, there would need to be an intermediate timeline in which Serge did not come in contact with the FF and that the timeline was then changed to bring about the screw-serge timeline. Possible, certainly, but I'm not aware of any evidence.

Unfortunately, the things I'm saying are loaded with assumptions.  We know Belthasar had the Neo-Epoch, and at least traveled back to 1020.  I'd be willing to bet (and am assuming here) he did a little bit more than that.

Quote from: Thought
While I haven't played Radical Dreamers, I find no information in the encyclopedia that the Radical Dreamers Dimension had a Dragon's Tear.

I'm just going from pure logic here, though it's possibly flawed I suppose.  In RD, El Nido exists (I think..right?), therefore the Time Crash has already happened, therefore Dinopolis was introduced, therefore Dragon Tear.

Quote from: Thought

Sorry, you lost me there. How does he know he needs a person to touch the FF in order to make a Slider?

Yet another assumption, but considering that Lynx seems to be able to traverse the dimensions it seems logical that the Flame's power can do that.

Quote from: Thought

Huh. The impression I had was that the magenetic storm caused by Schala trying to reach serge was accidental; an unintended side effect. Certainly, that isn't definate. But are there any indications in the game to point to the magnetic storm being intentional?

We don't.  Here's what Lucca says:

Quote from: Lucca
Edited thanks to Acacia Sgt. posting it on the page before

Lucca seems to imply that the storm was caused by Schala merely trying to contact this time period.  However, there's also this from Miguel's flashback:

Quote from: Miguel's Flashback
   What is this place?

   I don't know...
   but I don't think we're
   supposed to know about it...

   That child...
   That wounded child...
   Bring him to me...

Schala, presumably through the Flame, is talking - wanting the child to be brought to her / it.  If she caused the storm by accident, but she wanted the child to come to the Flame, did she just get incredibly lucky?

Magus doesn't need saved though, so Schala has no reason to save him.  Plus, I'd think Belthasar would have a far tougher time mortally wounding Magus than a 3 year old Serge.

Secondly, I'm saying Schala would save Serge from the idea of them being soul mates, not necessarily because they just happened to fall for one another.  By observation of the Radical Dreamers dimension, Belthasar could've postulated that Schala/Kid and Serge were indeed soul mates, and that Schala, with her now immense power, would be able to sense her soul mate was in danger and save him.  I'm really just searching for a reason that Serge is important enough for Schala to waste her time on.

I tend to doubt that she, in her Time Devourer form in the DBT, has any idea about Project Kid.  However, it is curious that she decides to clone herself and send her clone to that year.... I suppose it could've been in an attempt to be with her soul mate, Serge...?

Problem there, Killercactus, is that letting Serge live destorys the future somehow (the exact process is never stated, but if Serge lives past 1010, the future's crap).

I don't think we know this for sure.  We know that if Serge lives past 1010 as an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, the future's crap.  The exact process is never stated, but I've always assumed it had to do with the plotline that didn't totally make it into Cross, about Serge being consumed by the TD since he is an Arbiter.  If he never becomes an Arbiter, the future may be safe after all - there's just no way to save Schala.

And you're right - Belthasar's first priority was to save Schala, for which he needed a Chrono Cross.  To get a Chrono Cross, he needed two dimensions that had a Dragon Tear in them.  The thing is though, there were already two dimensions with a Dragon Tear (Another World and the Radical Dreamers dimension), but he didn't have anyone that could traverse them (possibly besides FATE, but FATE has no need for it).  What he needed was someone that could traverse two dimensions and obtain two Dragon Tears to create a Chrono Cross.  He then probably decided just to use this person to defeat the TD as well, since the person would need to fight through hell just to create a Chrono Cross.

So, in order to make a dimensional-traveler, he knows he needs that person to touch the Flame.  He installs Prometheus so that when that happens, FATE will challenge this person enough to be empowered by the end of the journey, and also to originally kill the person so that Kid can change the past and split the dimensions (he may also know that FATE will obtain one or both Dragon Tears to try and override Prometheus).  In order to have that person touch the Flame, he needs to shut down Chronopolis' defenses.  In order to do that, he needs Schala's power.  In order to get Schala's power, he has to find someone she believes is worth saving, and the only available option to Schala to save that person must be the Flame.

So, if he observes the RD dimension in which Serge is not attacked and not made an Arbiter, and notices Kid and Serge's possible romantic attraction, he could decide that Schala would believe Serge is worth saving by using the Frozen Flame.  That could be why Serge is chosen for all of this in the first place, and Belthasar could have set the panther demon on him to begin all of this.

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« on: July 06, 2009, 02:20:53 pm »
Well, to answer that question, we must know what was Project Kid's original plan, but it seems the game doesn't contain enough direct information.

* Belthasar learnt that Schala and Lavos merged into a new being.
* Belthasar knew that a ChronoCross could free Schala from Lavos.
* The ChronoCross's creation needs 2 copies of Dragon Tear, thus 2 dimensions are needed.
   So Belthasar must know how to cause dimension split.
* The person uses ChronoCross must have made contact with Schala herself.
   So Belthasar knew the whole thing about a Schala clone(later Kid).
* The experiments in Chronopolis involved parallel worlds somehow. For example, the Radical Dreamers reports.
   So 1. they could watch events happened in parallel worlds. OR 2. They just simulated those events.

   That answers how Belthasar knew a man called Serge?
* If 2 is true(see above), the experiments might be inaccuracy, that's why Belthasar needed to time travel to make sure his plan not ruined by some random events.


I always thought that these experiments weren't done until after the Time Crash, and subsequently after 1010 AD.  That should be the only time that Chronopolis could observe Home and Another world. 

However, the Radical Dreamers dimension is interesting.  I wonder where Serge came from in that dimension...?  Observing that dimension could have let Belthasar know that Serge and Schala were "soul mates", for instance.  However, if Belthasar was able to observe it before he orchestrated Project Kid, it would've had to have come into existence before the Time Crash. Or how bout this....

1) Belthasar sets up the Time Crash, and then departs for ~1010 AD.
2) Belthasar / Schala sends Kid to 1004 to be found by Lucca.
3) Belthasar goes to Chronopolis in ~1020 AD and observes the Radical Dreamers dimension, now made possible because the Time Crash has already occured and El Nido is formed.  He observes Kid, Serge and Magus interacting, and realizes the attraction between Kid and Serge.
4) Belthasar travels back in time to 1006 AD and sets a panther demon on Serge.  This event causes the events in Chrono Cross because Schala senses her "soul mate" is in danger when she hears him crying, and blows him to safety.  Had the demon not attacked, he would've become the musician we knew in RD.
5) Belthasar watches Serge grow up and sees that he isn't the musician, and that he is the Arbiter of the Flame.  He lets FATE kill him.
6) Belthasar then waits until 1020 AD, after Serge would have been old enough to handle the job he needs done.  He sends Kid back to save him.  Blah Blah Blah

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« on: July 06, 2009, 10:29:21 am »
Do we know anything more about Serge's, Wazuki's or Serge's mother's lineage?
We don't. From what the game tells us, that is a common fisherman's family.
Crono in CT is not a noble man or even important person, right?

Right, but no one (besides the Entity) was pulling the strings for Crono.  For Belthasar to do this, he had to know Serge (or a person like him, possessing whatever it was that Schala empathized with) would not only exist, but be hurt in such a way that Schala would sympathize with him and desire to save him by using the Frozen Flame.  Only then can his whole plan be put into motion. 

And, if Belthasar opened a history book just before he constructed FATE, Serge wouldn't be in it.  Not just because he wasn't famous, but because he was never born, and in fact the entire set of islands on which he lives has never even existed.

I'm saying that, since Serge's oldest descendents were probably from Chronopolis, is it too much to assume that Belthasar influenced his existence?  Could he have empowered a Chronopolis worker or two with something special that would pique Schala's interest (or her heart), then watched over them throughout history in the Neo-Epoch after the Time Crash, waiting for Schala to contact one of them?  I think it's at least possible...

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« on: July 06, 2009, 09:48:36 am »
Regardless of who tries to kill Serge, we're still left with Belthasar concocting a plan to empower a person that has never existed.  There has to be something special about Serge that was at least manipulated by Belthasar, causing him to want to empower that specific person, and also causing Schala to feel empathy for him instead of one of the millions of people dying in the Porre/Guardia war (like Crono, for instance).  I doubt genetic engineering is beyond Belthasar's capabilities.

Do we know anything more about Serge's, Wazuki's or Serge's mother's lineage?

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« on: July 02, 2009, 11:02:34 pm »

Maybe he didn't exactly had set people in his plan, more like just the roles. Like for example, he has it like this: 'The ruler of El Nido will do this and that', and not: 'General Viper will do this and that'. But that's just what I think.

I could probably accept that for General Viper, or the Devas or the other secondary characters, but not Serge.  Belthasar would have to say "Eventually Schala will hear someone crying, and hopefully they'll be in such a place that she can get them to the Frozen Flame".  That one is tough.

Now, if Belthasar did some kind of experiment where he put a trace of the Flame into a couple humans (or something similar), and he waited until their first decendant after Crono was born, he might've known Schala could hear his crying, because of his lineage.  Then he just sends a panther demon and the rest is history.

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« on: July 02, 2009, 05:27:56 pm »
OK - you guys are all right.  It seems Serge's death does not release the Prometheus circuit's lock on the Frozen Flame, which gives FATE a good reason to go after Lucca.  In trying to follow all of my thoughts through to fruition on this, I'm going to ask a question that takes this thread in a completely different direction. 

Lucca states in the end of Cross that Belthasar built Chronopolis and orchestrated Project Kid all to empower Serge to defeat the Time Devourer.  Part of this plan was the Time Crash.  The Time Crash caused Chronopolis to be sent back into the past, in which it defeated Dinopolis in a war, terraformed an archipelago and populated it with inhabitants from both citiets, and avoided contact with the mainland, right?  That means all the people of Termina (and all of El Nido) are ancestors of the Chronopolis workers, or the Dinopolis survivors.  This includes Serge.

Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet.  In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration.  How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed?  Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....?  Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« on: July 02, 2009, 04:49:42 pm »
Remember that the Prometheus Circuit was programmed that in the case FATE could detect it, it would erase any sign of it's existence to kept it hidden. So, FATE didn't knew of it's functions for years.
Then, once Serge became the arbiter and access was locked, FATE at first thought that killing him would unlock the Flame and gain access again. Then, some time after 1010 AD and killing Serge, FATE was able to permanently be aware of the Prometheus Circuit and now knew what exactly did it had to do.

So, Linx went after Lucca as Plan A. Since the dimensions were split, and FATE was monitoring both, it learned that Serge survived in the other one, and so it became Plan B if Lucca didn't cooperated, knowing that Serge wouldn't cross to Another World until 1020 AD.

OK - I remember the bold quote now, and that explains the killing of Serge and then the subsequent abduction of Lucca.  However, if we're assuming a Y shaped dimensional split, the dimensions haven't split yet when FATE first abducts Lucca - it will be 5 years until Kid travels back in time to split them.  How can FATE calculate that Serge will eventually cross the dimensions if the dimensions aren't yet split?  Does that question make sense?

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Why did Lynx need Lucca?
« on: July 02, 2009, 02:41:22 pm »
It wasn't actually Serge the one who kept the Flame locked. It was actually the Prometheus Circuit. It locked access to the Flame once Serge became the arbiter, and will only allow access to him. Which is why Linx went after Lucca, since she could unlocked it without needing Serge.

Once that failed, FATE decided to use Serge as a backup plan, leading to the whole body switch thing for access and all what happens in the game.

Quote from: Crono ghost on Opassa Beach
   The elimination of the
   Prometheus circuit's lock
   on the Frozen Flame was
   everyone's top priority!

   Lynx and Harle abducted
   Lucca, who alone could
   release the Prometheus lock
   that guarded the Flame...
   But the whole attempt only
   ended in failure.
   Then, they just waited for
   you to appear instead!
   You see, FATE calculated that
   you would one day cross
   the dimensions and try to
   make contact with the Flame.

Right, but I was wondering why FATE would kill Serge if it knew that killing him wouldn't unlock the Prometheus circuit.

I suppose I assumed that FATE would have to know how the Prometheus circuit worked.  I mean, it knew that it had to pass a DNA scan of the Arbiter to dupe it... do we really just accept that it didn't know that killing Serge wouldn't give it access back, so it went to Plan B (and then to C)?  If it's smart enough to calculate that Serge will cross the dimensions one day, it has to know that killing him won't unlock the circuit, right?

Furthermore, that means that in the original timeline (before Kid's interference), FATE never regained access to the Frozen Flame.  So, after getting Lucca didn't work, did it just give up?  I mean, the dimensions weren't split yet so it couuldn't calculate that Serge would cross them until 5 years later.  I just can't imaging FATE thinking "Huh - killing Serge didn't work, and catching Lucca didn't work.  Man, I wish I didn't kill Serge so that I could copy his DNA and get back into the Flame again.  Now what do i do?"

Wow, it's been a while since I've been around here....

I had some time today and started delving back into Chrono Cross, and I came across a conundrum.  In the original timeline (i.e., before Kid travels back to 1010 and the dimensions split), Serge is killed in 1010 by Lynx.  Apparently, Lynx killed Serge because he was an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, and FATE could not access it as long as he was alive, right?

I'm not so sure.

On the same timeline, in 1015, Lynx and Harle track down Lucca and murder her.  The supposed reasoning behind this (per the Condensed Plot Summary here at the Compendium) is because they believe she has information that can help release the lock on the Frozen Flame.

What????  I thought Serge's death already unlocked the Flame...?  Isn't that why he had to be killed in the first place?  This brings up a couple of questions.

1)  If Serge was killed in order for FATE to reaccess the Flame, why did Lynx need Lucca at all?  Furthermore, during the playout of Cross itself, why does Lynx go through the hassle of switching bodies with Serge to get to the Flame?  Does FATE believe or know that it cannot kill him?

2)  If Serge's death did NOT release the Arbiter lock on the Flame, how did FATE continue to operate in Another World?  How did it instruct the guy in Arni not to become a fisherman?  And, why was Serge killed in the first place?

My guess would be that, if Serge's death didn't unlock the Flame, than Lynx killed him because FATE knew he would somehow bring about the end of the world if it didn't (we know this to be true thanks to Home World and the Dead Sea existing the way they do).  As soon as he touches the Flame, he's destined to bond with the Time Devourer and help destroy the world, so Lynx/FATE kills him, even though it knows that it won't be able to access the Flame anymore.  That still doesn't explain stuff like the fisherman though, and brings back the "Belthasar is an a-hole theory because he puts the world in jeopardy to save Schala."

Good call - Shrodinger definately wasn't killing cats.

As for Belthasar's quote, I tend to follow placid's interpretation.  The 50/50 shot is definately what split Serge's life in twain, but I think the 50/50 shot he is referring to is not a random 50/50 that depends on chance, but rather (to get mathematical) the simple average of the probabilities of the two dimensions.

In Another World, there's no Kid to save him.  His probability of survival is 0%.

In Home World, Kid saves the day.  His probability of survival is 100%.

So, as Serge is being drowned by Lynx, he has a 50% chance, and that chance depends on whether Kid appears to save him or not.

It seems to me that you are both saying the same thing. Every time there is a "potentiality" there is a split. In the original timeline there was no potentiality - Serge died, end of story. But Kid's action caused the potentiality to exist and thus the split.

Of course to adhere to this viewpoint would beg the questions - "well isn't normal time travel the same situation? Where does the DBT come in then? No DBT is necessary here".

That IS what I was saying, but I think placid's contention is a little different.  I'm claiming Kid is what caused Serge's survival and the split.  He's saying that Kid had no part in Serge's survival or the split - she only caused Angelus Errare.  

The problem I see in placid's theory is this:

Quote from: Lucca
Further in the future, Kid
   is meant to travel back ten
   years in time from now to
   save Serge from drowning.
   And then, Kid was also
   meant to call Serge into the
   other world as he spoke with
   Leena here on Opassa Beach!

Lucca plainly states that Kid is meant to save Serge.  I don't see how then Serge could've survived without her interference, and therefore don't see how Home World can exist without her time travel.  Also, in the quote on the prior page, Kato seems to imply that there weren't two Miguels until the Dead Sea formed in 1010, which indicates that there was only one dimension up until that point (that included Miguel anyway).

As for my theory, "Where does the DBT come in?" is a good question.  I originally thought that Another World existed in the DBT, but that "beyond the dimensions" quote from Miguel hurts that theory.  I have two possible answers to that.  One is that Miguel isn't referring to the DBT in that quote.  He's referring to FATE destroying the Dead Sea.  The other is that Another World should be in the DBT, but is being held in existence by something: maybe the Entity, or more possibly FATE.  I need to look into that.

EDIT:  placidchap - I think I understand what your saying a little more clearly now.  You're saying everytime something significant happens, there is a dimension in which it happens and another in which it doesn't.  I can see that, but I'm not sure it applies to this situation.  If the outcome was random (i.e. truly 50/50, depending completely on chance), I could buy that.  I don't think that's the case with Serge's death/life, but some people do.

In 1935, Shrodinger conducted an experiment with a cat trapped in a box, and a device that releases a fatal chemical into the box.  Exactly half of the time, the chemical would be released, and the other half it wouldn't.  The question was, before one looks in the box, what happens to the cat?  Is it alive or dead?  He said that, based on Einstein's (and others) interpretation of quantum mechanics, the cat was both alive and dead until the box was opened.  It was as if two dimensions were created - one in which the cat survived and one in which it died - you wouldn't know which dimension you were in until you looked in the box.

I guess, in Serge's situation, it just seems to me that since Kid was meant to save him, he has a 100% chance of survival once Kid travels back, not a random 50/50.

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