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Fan Art / Kid, but actually Schala without the middle stuff going on.
« on: July 27, 2017, 12:12:20 am »
So I had this idea about what if Schala went directly to the "current" time instead of the whole Kid thing (both CC and RD). I personally like this idea a lot better, where she would gradually develop from a meek victim to a heroine in her own right.
So I started drawing some concepts of say, Schala appears in 1005 A.D and starts her own journey. Also ties in with a fanfic I wrote wherein Magus trades places with Schala on Dream Devourer to save her, and so she has to start her own journey to save him.
As you can see, I made her outfit and weapons be reminiscent of Kid:
This is going by the "Magus sacrifices himself for Schala", but he leaves behind his weapons and items for her and she learns to use a scythe, but more of a "finesse" rather than a strength weapon:
A color pic, this time she has a staff:
So I started drawing some concepts of say, Schala appears in 1005 A.D and starts her own journey. Also ties in with a fanfic I wrote wherein Magus trades places with Schala on Dream Devourer to save her, and so she has to start her own journey to save him.
As you can see, I made her outfit and weapons be reminiscent of Kid:
This is going by the "Magus sacrifices himself for Schala", but he leaves behind his weapons and items for her and she learns to use a scythe, but more of a "finesse" rather than a strength weapon:
A color pic, this time she has a staff:
2
Chrono Compendium Discussion / Where would we post stuff about music remixes?
« on: June 21, 2017, 03:41:37 am »
Dunno if this has been addressed, but where would we post stuff about music remixes such as requests, ideas, or seeking a specific one that is likely to have been done already?
3
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Idea of Guile being Janus but not Magus.
« on: April 22, 2017, 06:21:32 pm »
Okay bear with me here, this is a theory someone brought up to me some time ago, and while the evidence for it is almost nonexistent, I think it's still an intriguing thing to think about.
The theory is that Guile is Janus, but from a different tangent, so to speak.
Magus would negate his own existence as the Prophet and becomea time bastard(actually that's not the right word) like the Epoch. He would "warn" Janus about what he would become in an indirect way, influencing Janus's decisions and behavior later on. But the most important thing Magus would have done to negate his existence would be to bar Janus from going to the Ocean Palace and leaving him with Melchior.
Here's why I say "almost nonexistent".
After the fall of Zeal, someone says that Melchior tried to grab onto Janus as he was sucked into a time gate, but then both slipped in. I assumed at first that they would get sucked in and Melchior and Janus would be both separated afterward.
But what if they didn't?
What if say, Janus AND Melchior landed in 1000 A.D Gaurdia. Melchior raises Janus like a kindly grandpa and Janus does not grow up to be a dick. He becomes Guile instead. If Magus knows, it would give him a little more peace to know that he did give a second chance to "himself".
The theory is that Guile is Janus, but from a different tangent, so to speak.
Magus would negate his own existence as the Prophet and become
Here's why I say "almost nonexistent".
After the fall of Zeal, someone says that Melchior tried to grab onto Janus as he was sucked into a time gate, but then both slipped in. I assumed at first that they would get sucked in and Melchior and Janus would be both separated afterward.
But what if they didn't?
What if say, Janus AND Melchior landed in 1000 A.D Gaurdia. Melchior raises Janus like a kindly grandpa and Janus does not grow up to be a dick. He becomes Guile instead. If Magus knows, it would give him a little more peace to know that he did give a second chance to "himself".
4
Kajar Laboratories / Chrono series and Tabletop RPGing!
« on: February 19, 2017, 07:50:17 pm »
Ever since my recent obsession with CT I have been thinking about say, ways to bring Chrono stuff into the world of Tabletop RPGing. I've seen people made 5e D&D homebrew stuff derived from various games like Bloodborne, Dark Souls, World of Warcraft, The Witcher, and Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles.
Something I think would be fun would be to homebrew an adventure based on Radical Dreamers. It's pretty much a dungeon crawl with a lot of descriptions, exploration, monsters, and stuff already. All one has to do is make a detailed map and layout of Viper Manor and establish all the magic artifacts, traps, items, NPCs, enemies etc.
For D&D 5th edition-which is my current favorite so far and one of the newer and faster developing ones, I would probably set it a lower level (I am assuming you'd bring your own characters instead), and have all magic artifacts be known via an Arcana check. Goblins would be statted more like orcs, and Lynx would be a killable last boss. Before the game starts each player must think of a "secret" about their character, this will be hinted at by the Mirror of Whispers spirit. At least one character has to have a motive for breaking into Viper Manor other than "loot".
Another interesting idea is one I derived from a D&D 3rd edition book titled "Elder Evils" which is about apocalyptic enemies whose presence disturbs the natural order of the world. What if Lavos could be statted so that you could throw Lavos into another world, like say Toril or Eberron? What would it be like to have your lv. 20 druid come face to face against CR 40 Lavos core?
Of course it would not be limited to D&D. There might be other systems more suitable. For example if you wanted to sneak in a CT/CC character into a game, it would be much harder with the class system in D&D-for CT almost every character would have to be some type of battle mage(but Frog is def a paladin-he has the healing spells to come with it!) and in D&D its difficult to properly stat a character who is equally good at non-magic combat and magic even though there are many classes that do offer some combination of the two like blade-pact warlocks, eldritch knights, and bladesinger wizards. You'd have to think about if you want say, Crono to be more a caster or more of a fighter and pick the stats accordingly.
The magic system is not element based in D&D/Pathfinder. If you'd want something closer to a specific character you'd have to find a point-based system instead like GURPS, Hero, or BASH! systems. With those systems you could create almost any character as long as you can hash out what they can do in the system's mechanics.
Something I think would be fun would be to homebrew an adventure based on Radical Dreamers. It's pretty much a dungeon crawl with a lot of descriptions, exploration, monsters, and stuff already. All one has to do is make a detailed map and layout of Viper Manor and establish all the magic artifacts, traps, items, NPCs, enemies etc.
For D&D 5th edition-which is my current favorite so far and one of the newer and faster developing ones, I would probably set it a lower level (I am assuming you'd bring your own characters instead), and have all magic artifacts be known via an Arcana check. Goblins would be statted more like orcs, and Lynx would be a killable last boss. Before the game starts each player must think of a "secret" about their character, this will be hinted at by the Mirror of Whispers spirit. At least one character has to have a motive for breaking into Viper Manor other than "loot".
Another interesting idea is one I derived from a D&D 3rd edition book titled "Elder Evils" which is about apocalyptic enemies whose presence disturbs the natural order of the world. What if Lavos could be statted so that you could throw Lavos into another world, like say Toril or Eberron? What would it be like to have your lv. 20 druid come face to face against CR 40 Lavos core?
Of course it would not be limited to D&D. There might be other systems more suitable. For example if you wanted to sneak in a CT/CC character into a game, it would be much harder with the class system in D&D-for CT almost every character would have to be some type of battle mage(but Frog is def a paladin-he has the healing spells to come with it!) and in D&D its difficult to properly stat a character who is equally good at non-magic combat and magic even though there are many classes that do offer some combination of the two like blade-pact warlocks, eldritch knights, and bladesinger wizards. You'd have to think about if you want say, Crono to be more a caster or more of a fighter and pick the stats accordingly.
The magic system is not element based in D&D/Pathfinder. If you'd want something closer to a specific character you'd have to find a point-based system instead like GURPS, Hero, or BASH! systems. With those systems you could create almost any character as long as you can hash out what they can do in the system's mechanics.
5
Reality, Real-World Connections, and the Supernatural / Chrono series, Homestuck, and time travel story-telling
« on: February 17, 2017, 07:42:17 pm »
If any of you are familiar with Homestuck, you'd know that Homestuck obviously has taken inspiration from the Chrono series, along with many other retro games such as Earthbound.
I see a lot of people here confused about the many plot holes regarding the logic of time travel in the Chrono series. Then I remember Homestuck, and then I think that we should actually be thankful of these plot inconsistencies!
Homestuck is a webcomic/web media series that takes almost every concept of time travel and just turns it up to 11. Yet the time travel in it follows a consistent logical pattern, and one that is also fatalistic until the end. It takes time to realize the consistent logic in it and while one is watching it unfold it is confusing as hell. It takes a lot of deep plot analysis and thinking, and the characters explaining things to figure it out, but in the end it does make a twisted sort of sense and yet baffling at the same time.
If Chrono Trigger/Cross tried to iron out things regarding time travel it might have interfered with the story.
For those of you unfamiliar with Homestuck (spoilers abound if you are reading it-good luck to you!) or need a refresher, here is how time travel is there:
Time loops are a natural part of time. When a time loop is diverted, it branches out into a "beta timeline" that will then eventually decay and everyone in that timeline dies. There is one "alpha timeline" in which all time loops are stabilized or closed-and yet interference from beta timelines is also important! Because of this there is a fatalistic, blind determinism that is a series of casualities-and one that can be tampered with if an omniscient being is involved.
The remains of those "broken" timelines and the ghosts of those in them are found in the area "Beyond the Furthest Ring"-a similar concept to the Darkness Beyond Time(I think that's where the author took it from maybe) but is inhabited by "The Dark Gods" who are unfathomable Cthulhu-esque beings that rule the place.
The rules of time can, and are used in interesting ways. There are devices that take advantage of paradoxes to create life-some characters are even born this way when a device tries to teleport their future self into the present, only to create a paradox clone, which then grows up to becomes their future self.
Two of the characters begin a "side-quest" in which they have to clone-breed frogs using such a device. They have to teleport frogs but have to plan in advance to get the frogs so that it would create a paradox clone instead of teleporting the frog.
There are also characters who use time loops in combat by creating multiple time clones to assist in battle, but often creates piles of time clone corpses. Such characters are already protected by consistent time loops, so if they die in battle the timeline where they died in battle becomes a beta timeline-or the time traveler fast-fowards past their other self's death in which both the clone and alpha exist side-by side but one is dead. The "Big Bad" became vastly powerful by becoming one who has dominion over time, and even uses time to blast his enemies into oblivion. There are also characters that attack others by attacking their enemies in the past or the future within their opponent's personal timestream-like they just swat something in mid-air but are actually punching the future self of someone else.
There are also mysterious items known as "jujus" that have no beginning or end, they sort of created their own existence in a way but have legendary properties.
There is also something known as "The Scratch" which creates a new timeline from the beginning of the universe, and to better understand it requires using game save metaphors and the main characters have to cheat getting "rewound" be exiting "the game".
Toward the end of the story, there is one juju in particular that has the ability to break determinism by creating a new alpha timeline when one interacts with it. Paradoxically the events in the old alpha timeline that secured the main characters' doom led to the discovery of it. Yet it was able to be reached and used well due to a character whose power is to think about theoretical casual events, such as how certain changes in the timeline can lead to the better outcome.
So in Chrono Trigger, certain paradoxes could possibly occur due to taking people out of the timestream and negating certain events. In Homestuck these are sorta patched up with the idea of temporal determinism and explaining certain properties of the universe, which is most likely not the case in the Chrono series. Yet somehow I think temporal determinism is something that might be interesting to introduce into the series (coughcoughthebreakinchronobreakcoughlikebreakingdeterminsimcough).
I see a lot of people here confused about the many plot holes regarding the logic of time travel in the Chrono series. Then I remember Homestuck, and then I think that we should actually be thankful of these plot inconsistencies!
Homestuck is a webcomic/web media series that takes almost every concept of time travel and just turns it up to 11. Yet the time travel in it follows a consistent logical pattern, and one that is also fatalistic until the end. It takes time to realize the consistent logic in it and while one is watching it unfold it is confusing as hell. It takes a lot of deep plot analysis and thinking, and the characters explaining things to figure it out, but in the end it does make a twisted sort of sense and yet baffling at the same time.
If Chrono Trigger/Cross tried to iron out things regarding time travel it might have interfered with the story.
For those of you unfamiliar with Homestuck (spoilers abound if you are reading it-good luck to you!) or need a refresher, here is how time travel is there:
Time loops are a natural part of time. When a time loop is diverted, it branches out into a "beta timeline" that will then eventually decay and everyone in that timeline dies. There is one "alpha timeline" in which all time loops are stabilized or closed-and yet interference from beta timelines is also important! Because of this there is a fatalistic, blind determinism that is a series of casualities-and one that can be tampered with if an omniscient being is involved.
The remains of those "broken" timelines and the ghosts of those in them are found in the area "Beyond the Furthest Ring"-a similar concept to the Darkness Beyond Time(I think that's where the author took it from maybe) but is inhabited by "The Dark Gods" who are unfathomable Cthulhu-esque beings that rule the place.
The rules of time can, and are used in interesting ways. There are devices that take advantage of paradoxes to create life-some characters are even born this way when a device tries to teleport their future self into the present, only to create a paradox clone, which then grows up to becomes their future self.
Two of the characters begin a "side-quest" in which they have to clone-breed frogs using such a device. They have to teleport frogs but have to plan in advance to get the frogs so that it would create a paradox clone instead of teleporting the frog.
There are also characters who use time loops in combat by creating multiple time clones to assist in battle, but often creates piles of time clone corpses. Such characters are already protected by consistent time loops, so if they die in battle the timeline where they died in battle becomes a beta timeline-or the time traveler fast-fowards past their other self's death in which both the clone and alpha exist side-by side but one is dead. The "Big Bad" became vastly powerful by becoming one who has dominion over time, and even uses time to blast his enemies into oblivion. There are also characters that attack others by attacking their enemies in the past or the future within their opponent's personal timestream-like they just swat something in mid-air but are actually punching the future self of someone else.
There are also mysterious items known as "jujus" that have no beginning or end, they sort of created their own existence in a way but have legendary properties.
There is also something known as "The Scratch" which creates a new timeline from the beginning of the universe, and to better understand it requires using game save metaphors and the main characters have to cheat getting "rewound" be exiting "the game".
Toward the end of the story, there is one juju in particular that has the ability to break determinism by creating a new alpha timeline when one interacts with it. Paradoxically the events in the old alpha timeline that secured the main characters' doom led to the discovery of it. Yet it was able to be reached and used well due to a character whose power is to think about theoretical casual events, such as how certain changes in the timeline can lead to the better outcome.
So in Chrono Trigger, certain paradoxes could possibly occur due to taking people out of the timestream and negating certain events. In Homestuck these are sorta patched up with the idea of temporal determinism and explaining certain properties of the universe, which is most likely not the case in the Chrono series. Yet somehow I think temporal determinism is something that might be interesting to introduce into the series (coughcoughthebreakinchronobreakcoughlikebreakingdeterminsimcough).
6
Fan Fiction / No More, No Less-(about Magus using the Time Egg to save Schala)
« on: February 15, 2017, 04:36:07 pm »
This is a fanfic I made some time ago addressing the idea of Magus using the Chrono Trigger to save Schala. I always wondered about that being an option and a potential divergent storyline with some interesting possibilities.
http://archiveofourown.org/works/8653393/chapters/19844563
http://archiveofourown.org/works/8653393/chapters/19844563
7
Magic, Elements, and Technology / The four elements in Chrono Trigger and being the stuff of the universe.
« on: February 15, 2017, 04:27:04 pm »
I am developing this theory for a fanfic, and I want to know if it actually makes sense, both by itself and in relation to CT canon.
I must note that it is full of bad science.
Spekkio says that the universe is composed of four elements: sky, fire, water, and dark. Of course this is rather different to most other element systems in fiction and lore which often include "earth" and "air". One could see the more common element system (fire, earth, water, air) as metaphorical to plasma, solid, liquid, and gas-the four states of matter. There is the matter of the Chinese system that uses "wood" and "metal" in place of "earth" and uses "earth" in place of a combined element, but I won't get into that.
So the way I am interpreting Spekkio is that sky, fire, water, and dark are metaphorical for deeper fundamentals of the universe.
Sky- Sky spells that we see Crono cast involve lightning, light, and even "life"(though the character being revived is likely not actually dead but just knocked out). I would take "sky" or "heaven" to mean energy. Energy is the currency of the universe and is present in the flow of elections and photons.
Water-This is very tricky. Water can be casted as is, or as ice. Water also can be used for healing since hey, much of the body is water and water is fundamental to life as we know it (and Robo for some reason, because he can be healed too but okay its just the game). Water does not mean much to the universe as a whole, yet water does have a lot of interesting properties. Water is the combination of two elements, which alone are gasses, water dissolves a lot of substances which become suspended within it, water molecules also adhere to each other very well. I would say that water represents some kind of force of cohesion, or even stability.
Fire-Fire is much more straightforward in CT, it's well, fire. Fire is combustion, and the same forces that make fire possible are also responsible for even some biological processes. Things like fire, or at least reminiscent of fire exist in outer space as things like supernova, stars, and solar flares. I would relate fire to thinks like transmutation, change, energy, radiation, heat, etc. Fire perhaps could be radiation(such as thermal energy) or instability, which nicely contrasts with water. However there is a lot of overlap here with sky.
Dark-This is said to be a combination of the three elements above, or is it? If it is, then it would not be an element. It could however, be a shadow of these elements? What would support that case if the spell names accurately tell what the spell does, would be the Dark Matter spell. The other dark spell names include Black Hole and Dark Mist. Black hole seems actually look like something sucking others into somewhere else. I am somewhat tempted to call "dark", "entropy" or even "gravity", some kind of force in the universe that in a way is the "pull" away from energy that us also fundamental to it? I am not sure but at least I vaguely seem to know what I am looking for.
Still this is very tentative and probably needs a lot of bad comic book science to work. Something that confounds me is that Marle seems to learn slow and haste, which are related to time. Maybe this could be handwaved to actually speed and slow metabolic processes. Or maybe Marle picked up a few things from going through gates a lot.
Which also brings me to time. Time could be the combination of all elements? Maybe time and space are made from all the elements. The happy "coincidence" that the CT party contains element users of all four types could be some kind of metaphor of unity/working together.
The sprites of Crono and Frog casting show them to be releasing a force within themselves. Marle looks like she is concentrating or praying. Lucca looks like she is actually chanting something when she is casting. Magus's casting animation is very different-he makes complex gestures and does not float as he casts. I get the impression that Crono, Marle, Lucca, and Frog are channeling their element, acting like a conduit to it and releasing it. Magus on the other hand is a trained mage, so he knows how to wield magic rather than just release it, this gives him more variety in casting, hence how he can cast spells not of his element and do things like fly, levitate, turn people into anthropomorphic frogs, and summon Lavos.
In D&D terms the other party members are like sorcerers and Magus is a wizard. Another way to put it is that it's like shouting vs. singing. However it seems that perhaps maybe from Spekkio's power that Crono, Lucca, Marle, and Frog quickly learn to refine their magic to do things like healing and revive members, or it could be born from the fact they are learning by fighting.
I think that it is possible for someone to cast beyond their element, but it takes a lot of experience and knowledge to do so. After all, the elements of the universe do not exist in isolation but fundamentally require each other to exist.
Although the terms sky, water, fire, and dark are mostly metaphorical, when such forces of the universe are harnessed via magic, in their rawer forms do appear as their literal names because they are being channeled through the planet's power, hence having a relationship with the Dragonian elements of CC. The natural phenomena themselves also contain that element of the universe more than others.
So what do you think?
I must note that it is full of bad science.
Spekkio says that the universe is composed of four elements: sky, fire, water, and dark. Of course this is rather different to most other element systems in fiction and lore which often include "earth" and "air". One could see the more common element system (fire, earth, water, air) as metaphorical to plasma, solid, liquid, and gas-the four states of matter. There is the matter of the Chinese system that uses "wood" and "metal" in place of "earth" and uses "earth" in place of a combined element, but I won't get into that.
So the way I am interpreting Spekkio is that sky, fire, water, and dark are metaphorical for deeper fundamentals of the universe.
Sky- Sky spells that we see Crono cast involve lightning, light, and even "life"(though the character being revived is likely not actually dead but just knocked out). I would take "sky" or "heaven" to mean energy. Energy is the currency of the universe and is present in the flow of elections and photons.
Water-This is very tricky. Water can be casted as is, or as ice. Water also can be used for healing since hey, much of the body is water and water is fundamental to life as we know it (and Robo for some reason, because he can be healed too but okay its just the game). Water does not mean much to the universe as a whole, yet water does have a lot of interesting properties. Water is the combination of two elements, which alone are gasses, water dissolves a lot of substances which become suspended within it, water molecules also adhere to each other very well. I would say that water represents some kind of force of cohesion, or even stability.
Fire-Fire is much more straightforward in CT, it's well, fire. Fire is combustion, and the same forces that make fire possible are also responsible for even some biological processes. Things like fire, or at least reminiscent of fire exist in outer space as things like supernova, stars, and solar flares. I would relate fire to thinks like transmutation, change, energy, radiation, heat, etc. Fire perhaps could be radiation(such as thermal energy) or instability, which nicely contrasts with water. However there is a lot of overlap here with sky.
Dark-This is said to be a combination of the three elements above, or is it? If it is, then it would not be an element. It could however, be a shadow of these elements? What would support that case if the spell names accurately tell what the spell does, would be the Dark Matter spell. The other dark spell names include Black Hole and Dark Mist. Black hole seems actually look like something sucking others into somewhere else. I am somewhat tempted to call "dark", "entropy" or even "gravity", some kind of force in the universe that in a way is the "pull" away from energy that us also fundamental to it? I am not sure but at least I vaguely seem to know what I am looking for.
Still this is very tentative and probably needs a lot of bad comic book science to work. Something that confounds me is that Marle seems to learn slow and haste, which are related to time. Maybe this could be handwaved to actually speed and slow metabolic processes. Or maybe Marle picked up a few things from going through gates a lot.
Which also brings me to time. Time could be the combination of all elements? Maybe time and space are made from all the elements. The happy "coincidence" that the CT party contains element users of all four types could be some kind of metaphor of unity/working together.
The sprites of Crono and Frog casting show them to be releasing a force within themselves. Marle looks like she is concentrating or praying. Lucca looks like she is actually chanting something when she is casting. Magus's casting animation is very different-he makes complex gestures and does not float as he casts. I get the impression that Crono, Marle, Lucca, and Frog are channeling their element, acting like a conduit to it and releasing it. Magus on the other hand is a trained mage, so he knows how to wield magic rather than just release it, this gives him more variety in casting, hence how he can cast spells not of his element and do things like fly, levitate, turn people into anthropomorphic frogs, and summon Lavos.
In D&D terms the other party members are like sorcerers and Magus is a wizard. Another way to put it is that it's like shouting vs. singing. However it seems that perhaps maybe from Spekkio's power that Crono, Lucca, Marle, and Frog quickly learn to refine their magic to do things like healing and revive members, or it could be born from the fact they are learning by fighting.
I think that it is possible for someone to cast beyond their element, but it takes a lot of experience and knowledge to do so. After all, the elements of the universe do not exist in isolation but fundamentally require each other to exist.
Although the terms sky, water, fire, and dark are mostly metaphorical, when such forces of the universe are harnessed via magic, in their rawer forms do appear as their literal names because they are being channeled through the planet's power, hence having a relationship with the Dragonian elements of CC. The natural phenomena themselves also contain that element of the universe more than others.
So what do you think?
8
Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / Lavos as a Lovecraftian-style eldritch abomination
« on: February 15, 2017, 04:09:20 pm »
I know everyone has a Lavos theory here, so I want to share my own.
Lavos is obviously heavily inspired by Cthulhu, there's a thread on it in the real world influences. However does Lavos work as a "Great Old One"?
I think Lavos is just one out of a species of "parasites" as implied by the release of spawn. So it might still fit with being some kind of eldritch abomination species.
I am very familiar with Lovecraft's works and the Cthulhu mythos, and as a huge fan of that I do see Lavos as a Cthulhu-esque being. I wish more people made the connection and made "Ia ia Lavos fhtagn" jokes.
Something to note before I elaborate further, to those of you not that familiar with the Cthulhu mythos: H.P Lovecraft started the Cthulhu mythos in 1920s, but encouraged his friends and other authors to expand upon the "shared mythology", and to continue to do so even after his death. Lovecraft himself also alluded to his friend's works and works that influenced him into the shared mythology.
I will use the term "Great Old One" to refer specifically to god-like beings in the mythos that seem to inhabit planets and such. "Outer Gods" are more like "true gods" and their presence and being expands or supersedes the universe.
Examples of established Great Old Ones include Cthulhu, Hastur, Bokrug, Dagon, Yig, Cthuga, Rhan-Tegoth, Chaugnar Faugn, Ithaqua, and Tsathoggua.
Examples of established Outer Gods include Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, and Yog-Sothoth.
Shubb-Niggurath is dubious, but later established to be an Outer God.
It should be noted the distinction between the two is something established later in the mythos, especially by the "Call of Cthulhu" rpg.
Plenty of other beings in various media have been inspired by the "Cthulhu mythos" beings and have similar properties and share many of these themes-such as the Great Ones from Bloodborne, the Horrorterrors from Homestuck, and Kyuubey(actually Kyuubey reminds me of Lavos in terms of tampering with humanity and dreams).
Here are some features of Lavos that stand out to me as being very "Lovecraftian":
-Lavos is a magic alien from space that is seen as a god. The people from Zeal refer to Lavos as a god, which of course was cut from the NA version, and Schala in the original was said to "pray" to the Mammon Machine. Many of Lovecraft's monsters such as Cthulhu are often said to be tremendously powerful aliens that could be seen as, or pass as gods. Cthulhu himself in "Call of Cthulhu" is actually said to be a high priest of an even greater power.
-Lavos lies dreaming. The "Great Old Ones" in the Cthulhu mythos are said to come from elsewhere in the cosmos, they brought their idols with them, and because somehow the "stars aren't right", they lie in the deep places of the Earth, dead and dreaming, waiting to awaken and reclaim their dominion over Earth and in the process destroy or enslave humanity. Lavos is also said to be sleeping within the core of the planet, and Queen Zeal often refers to Lavos as "dreaming", when Magus tries to summon Lavos in 600 A.D, he mentions Lavos being asleep.
Dreams in general are a huge motif in the Cthulhu mythos as well as Lovecraft's general body of work. In the Chrono series dreams are a motif as well. Dreams can even create beings like Masa and Mune. You also have dreamstone and "Radical Dreamers" and a lot of talk about dreams on the Omen and Zeal.
-Lavos touches the minds of humans, often resulting in insanity. The Great Old Ones are known for this, and this is how they gather worshippers. In "Call of Cthulhu", Cthulhu's mind touches various people around the world, making them dream of Cthulhu and his sunken city tomb R'lyeh. People touched by these dreams are often afflicted by madness, which sometimes leads to worshipping Cthulhu. Other Great Old Ones touch the minds of followers in similar ways. In Chrono Trigger, this is kinda what happens to Queen Zeal, some NPCs noted that she had changed over night upon having Lavos touch her mind. In Chrono Cross, human evolution and mental development are altered by having their minds touched by Lavos.
Lavos tampered with human genes. In the Cthulhu mythos, Yog-Sothoth interbreeds with humans, and the Deep Ones are a race of fish people who serve Cthulhu and Dagon who interbreed with humans. Although this comparison is a stretch I admit. Though in the Cthulhu mythos, life on Earth was seeded by a race of super-advanced aliens that later in the mythos are dubbed "Elder Things", and where said to possibly breed, create, or influence human evolution "just because" or as a joke.
-Lavos warps time and space. Lavos is shown to have some manipulation over time and space, every time the party encounters it in its own surrounding pocket dimension, or what seems like some surrounding distortion of reality. Lavos also appears to distort time in the final battle, and may have created some of the gates that affected the Gurus and Janus at the Ocean Palace incident. In the Cthulhu mythos, many beings of different levels of power are said to exist beyond three dimensions, the fourth dimension of course being time. The Great Old Ones and Outer Gods are even said to beyond life and death. The Outer God Yog-Sothoth exists beyond the bounds of time and space, and is described by Lovecraft in "The Dunwich Horror" in an excerpt from the Necronomicon:
"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread."
-Lavos holds dangerous knowledge. Lavos is the reason humans know magic, or are gifted with magic. In Zeal it seems that confidence in magic and power creates an air of arrogance with them that makes them think they can rely on something as dangerous as Lavos and abandon the power of the Sun Stone. Zeal's society is also cleaved along one having magical ability, as on of the Earthbound Ones remarks that only Schala among the Enlightened Ones treated them as equals. Magic is dangerous, and in the Cthulhu mythos, most magic involves pacts with entities like Nyarlathotep, or spells from the dreaded Necronomicon. Worshippers of Great Old Ones and Outer Gods often posses magic skills, but this magic is the variety of "evil ritual involving sacrificing humans and dancing like a madman during the full moon while people in creepy robes chant things and there is a magic sigil on the floor" kind.
Which reminds me, often Lovecraftian entities, especially later in the mythos are spoken as being "summoned" or worshippers are said to try to summon such entities to give a passage way for them to wreak havoc on the world.
The imagery when Magus tries to summon Lavos in 600 A.D is very reminiscent of this. There is a magic circle on the floor(or maybe just a carpet that looks like one), candles, chanting, what seems to be a magic or esoteric language, and a demonic idol. Magus's words during the ritual also imply sacrifice:
"Be spun, betwixt heaven and earth....."
"In exchange for this earth's life.......!"
In the Cthulhu mythos, forbidden knowledge includes not just magic, but knowledge of entities, the secret past of the world and the universe, the doom to come to humanity, other worlds and dimensions, lost civilizations, and horrid truths that make human life a speck of dust in an enormously vast scale of things.
Lavos evolving humans, and being the reason humans even had magic fits there. Imagine learning that humans became sapient because of a magic alien god monster parasite who will doom humanity wanted so for its own purposes?
There are three entities in the Cthulhu mythos that Lavos reminds me of:
Glaaki
Glaaki is a Great Old One created by Frank Belkamp Long in his 1964 story "The Inhabitant of the Lake".
Lavos even looks like him!
Glaaki arrived to Earth from a meteor and then crashed into a crater which became a lake where he resides in. He psychically contacts people with dreams and "revelations". These become part of a "holy book" known as the "Revelations of Glaaki" and tell about secret and forbidden knowledge. Followers of Glaaki eventually make their pilgrimage to Glaaki wherin they impale themselves upon his spines in hope for eternal life and then he turns then into mindless indead zombies that serve him.
Cthuga
Cthuga first appears in August Derelith's "The House on Curwen Street" in 1944.
Cthuga is a fire elemental Great Old One imprisoned on the star Fomalhaut and seeks revenge. The whole meteor/fireball theme here could have been an influence on Lavos.
The Color out of Space.
This one was made by H.P Lovecraft himself in his 1927 story "The Colour out of Space"(despite being an American author he liked to spell things the British way).
This story is about a mysterious entity marked by a hue that has never seen by humans before. It first appears as a meteor that lands on a farm, inside the meteor are tiny iridescent bubbles of the unknown color that pops after the meteor gradually shrinks and leaves said bubbles behind. Samples are taken from the meteor but then dissolve into nothing, and what is examined shows to be a substance completely unknown to science or even on the periodic table of elements.
Nothing appears to happen for some time, but then the crops on the farm begin to show a strange iridescence of the alien color. Strange things began happening on the farm such as trees that sway even when there is no wind. The crops become inedible, the animals become sick, and members of the farm family go insane. Then the crops begin to wither into a gray dust, the animals waste away, and the rest of the family also goes insane and withers to death. A group of scientists and a neighbor examine what remains, then finds a shimmering being of the same alien color rise from the well, and depart the Earth, but also leaves behind it's seed back in the well.
Lavos reminds me of this because of the whole "parasitic alien from a meteor" thing.
Within the Cthulhu mythos, some Great Old Ones like Cthulhu later seem to have "star spawn" which look like smaller( but still formidable) versions of themselves which they spawn somehow.
Whew! You made it to the bottom of this post. Congrats!
Now consider this: If Lavos is meant to be similar to a "Great Old One" , and it and it's kind are merely one out of many horrid beings and magic god aliens out there, what else would this say about Lavos?
Some have thought that Lavos isn't sapient, but considering this it's more that Lavos does not communicate with humans because its mind, motives, and nature are vastly incomprehensible. Its intelligence is actually far greater than a humans and sees humans as mere livestock. It exists in a way that transcends into four dimensions.
As for it's origin, it could simply be an extremely advanced alien, but to this extent of reality-breaking and planet-eating, maybe cultivated by even more horrid beings. Maybe something even from a completely different universe or reality. Could also be some other being's attempt to reshape and terraform the universe.
Perhaps after the destruction of Lavos, it may invite the attention of eyes that one would hope never set on the world.
Lavos is obviously heavily inspired by Cthulhu, there's a thread on it in the real world influences. However does Lavos work as a "Great Old One"?
I think Lavos is just one out of a species of "parasites" as implied by the release of spawn. So it might still fit with being some kind of eldritch abomination species.
I am very familiar with Lovecraft's works and the Cthulhu mythos, and as a huge fan of that I do see Lavos as a Cthulhu-esque being. I wish more people made the connection and made "Ia ia Lavos fhtagn" jokes.
Something to note before I elaborate further, to those of you not that familiar with the Cthulhu mythos: H.P Lovecraft started the Cthulhu mythos in 1920s, but encouraged his friends and other authors to expand upon the "shared mythology", and to continue to do so even after his death. Lovecraft himself also alluded to his friend's works and works that influenced him into the shared mythology.
I will use the term "Great Old One" to refer specifically to god-like beings in the mythos that seem to inhabit planets and such. "Outer Gods" are more like "true gods" and their presence and being expands or supersedes the universe.
Examples of established Great Old Ones include Cthulhu, Hastur, Bokrug, Dagon, Yig, Cthuga, Rhan-Tegoth, Chaugnar Faugn, Ithaqua, and Tsathoggua.
Examples of established Outer Gods include Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, and Yog-Sothoth.
Shubb-Niggurath is dubious, but later established to be an Outer God.
It should be noted the distinction between the two is something established later in the mythos, especially by the "Call of Cthulhu" rpg.
Plenty of other beings in various media have been inspired by the "Cthulhu mythos" beings and have similar properties and share many of these themes-such as the Great Ones from Bloodborne, the Horrorterrors from Homestuck, and Kyuubey(actually Kyuubey reminds me of Lavos in terms of tampering with humanity and dreams).
Here are some features of Lavos that stand out to me as being very "Lovecraftian":
-Lavos is a magic alien from space that is seen as a god. The people from Zeal refer to Lavos as a god, which of course was cut from the NA version, and Schala in the original was said to "pray" to the Mammon Machine. Many of Lovecraft's monsters such as Cthulhu are often said to be tremendously powerful aliens that could be seen as, or pass as gods. Cthulhu himself in "Call of Cthulhu" is actually said to be a high priest of an even greater power.
-Lavos lies dreaming. The "Great Old Ones" in the Cthulhu mythos are said to come from elsewhere in the cosmos, they brought their idols with them, and because somehow the "stars aren't right", they lie in the deep places of the Earth, dead and dreaming, waiting to awaken and reclaim their dominion over Earth and in the process destroy or enslave humanity. Lavos is also said to be sleeping within the core of the planet, and Queen Zeal often refers to Lavos as "dreaming", when Magus tries to summon Lavos in 600 A.D, he mentions Lavos being asleep.
Dreams in general are a huge motif in the Cthulhu mythos as well as Lovecraft's general body of work. In the Chrono series dreams are a motif as well. Dreams can even create beings like Masa and Mune. You also have dreamstone and "Radical Dreamers" and a lot of talk about dreams on the Omen and Zeal.
-Lavos touches the minds of humans, often resulting in insanity. The Great Old Ones are known for this, and this is how they gather worshippers. In "Call of Cthulhu", Cthulhu's mind touches various people around the world, making them dream of Cthulhu and his sunken city tomb R'lyeh. People touched by these dreams are often afflicted by madness, which sometimes leads to worshipping Cthulhu. Other Great Old Ones touch the minds of followers in similar ways. In Chrono Trigger, this is kinda what happens to Queen Zeal, some NPCs noted that she had changed over night upon having Lavos touch her mind. In Chrono Cross, human evolution and mental development are altered by having their minds touched by Lavos.
Lavos tampered with human genes. In the Cthulhu mythos, Yog-Sothoth interbreeds with humans, and the Deep Ones are a race of fish people who serve Cthulhu and Dagon who interbreed with humans. Although this comparison is a stretch I admit. Though in the Cthulhu mythos, life on Earth was seeded by a race of super-advanced aliens that later in the mythos are dubbed "Elder Things", and where said to possibly breed, create, or influence human evolution "just because" or as a joke.
-Lavos warps time and space. Lavos is shown to have some manipulation over time and space, every time the party encounters it in its own surrounding pocket dimension, or what seems like some surrounding distortion of reality. Lavos also appears to distort time in the final battle, and may have created some of the gates that affected the Gurus and Janus at the Ocean Palace incident. In the Cthulhu mythos, many beings of different levels of power are said to exist beyond three dimensions, the fourth dimension of course being time. The Great Old Ones and Outer Gods are even said to beyond life and death. The Outer God Yog-Sothoth exists beyond the bounds of time and space, and is described by Lovecraft in "The Dunwich Horror" in an excerpt from the Necronomicon:
"Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread."
-Lavos holds dangerous knowledge. Lavos is the reason humans know magic, or are gifted with magic. In Zeal it seems that confidence in magic and power creates an air of arrogance with them that makes them think they can rely on something as dangerous as Lavos and abandon the power of the Sun Stone. Zeal's society is also cleaved along one having magical ability, as on of the Earthbound Ones remarks that only Schala among the Enlightened Ones treated them as equals. Magic is dangerous, and in the Cthulhu mythos, most magic involves pacts with entities like Nyarlathotep, or spells from the dreaded Necronomicon. Worshippers of Great Old Ones and Outer Gods often posses magic skills, but this magic is the variety of "evil ritual involving sacrificing humans and dancing like a madman during the full moon while people in creepy robes chant things and there is a magic sigil on the floor" kind.
Which reminds me, often Lovecraftian entities, especially later in the mythos are spoken as being "summoned" or worshippers are said to try to summon such entities to give a passage way for them to wreak havoc on the world.
The imagery when Magus tries to summon Lavos in 600 A.D is very reminiscent of this. There is a magic circle on the floor(or maybe just a carpet that looks like one), candles, chanting, what seems to be a magic or esoteric language, and a demonic idol. Magus's words during the ritual also imply sacrifice:
"Be spun, betwixt heaven and earth....."
"In exchange for this earth's life.......!"
In the Cthulhu mythos, forbidden knowledge includes not just magic, but knowledge of entities, the secret past of the world and the universe, the doom to come to humanity, other worlds and dimensions, lost civilizations, and horrid truths that make human life a speck of dust in an enormously vast scale of things.
Lavos evolving humans, and being the reason humans even had magic fits there. Imagine learning that humans became sapient because of a magic alien god monster parasite who will doom humanity wanted so for its own purposes?
There are three entities in the Cthulhu mythos that Lavos reminds me of:
Glaaki
Glaaki is a Great Old One created by Frank Belkamp Long in his 1964 story "The Inhabitant of the Lake".
Lavos even looks like him!
Glaaki arrived to Earth from a meteor and then crashed into a crater which became a lake where he resides in. He psychically contacts people with dreams and "revelations". These become part of a "holy book" known as the "Revelations of Glaaki" and tell about secret and forbidden knowledge. Followers of Glaaki eventually make their pilgrimage to Glaaki wherin they impale themselves upon his spines in hope for eternal life and then he turns then into mindless indead zombies that serve him.
Cthuga
Cthuga first appears in August Derelith's "The House on Curwen Street" in 1944.
Cthuga is a fire elemental Great Old One imprisoned on the star Fomalhaut and seeks revenge. The whole meteor/fireball theme here could have been an influence on Lavos.
The Color out of Space.
This one was made by H.P Lovecraft himself in his 1927 story "The Colour out of Space"(despite being an American author he liked to spell things the British way).
This story is about a mysterious entity marked by a hue that has never seen by humans before. It first appears as a meteor that lands on a farm, inside the meteor are tiny iridescent bubbles of the unknown color that pops after the meteor gradually shrinks and leaves said bubbles behind. Samples are taken from the meteor but then dissolve into nothing, and what is examined shows to be a substance completely unknown to science or even on the periodic table of elements.
Nothing appears to happen for some time, but then the crops on the farm begin to show a strange iridescence of the alien color. Strange things began happening on the farm such as trees that sway even when there is no wind. The crops become inedible, the animals become sick, and members of the farm family go insane. Then the crops begin to wither into a gray dust, the animals waste away, and the rest of the family also goes insane and withers to death. A group of scientists and a neighbor examine what remains, then finds a shimmering being of the same alien color rise from the well, and depart the Earth, but also leaves behind it's seed back in the well.
Lavos reminds me of this because of the whole "parasitic alien from a meteor" thing.
Within the Cthulhu mythos, some Great Old Ones like Cthulhu later seem to have "star spawn" which look like smaller( but still formidable) versions of themselves which they spawn somehow.
Whew! You made it to the bottom of this post. Congrats!
Now consider this: If Lavos is meant to be similar to a "Great Old One" , and it and it's kind are merely one out of many horrid beings and magic god aliens out there, what else would this say about Lavos?
Some have thought that Lavos isn't sapient, but considering this it's more that Lavos does not communicate with humans because its mind, motives, and nature are vastly incomprehensible. Its intelligence is actually far greater than a humans and sees humans as mere livestock. It exists in a way that transcends into four dimensions.
As for it's origin, it could simply be an extremely advanced alien, but to this extent of reality-breaking and planet-eating, maybe cultivated by even more horrid beings. Maybe something even from a completely different universe or reality. Could also be some other being's attempt to reshape and terraform the universe.
Perhaps after the destruction of Lavos, it may invite the attention of eyes that one would hope never set on the world.
9
Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities / So, what IS the Black Wind?
« on: February 15, 2017, 03:46:33 pm »
Hi I'm new here but have been lurking for some time due to the blocking of new members. Hi y'all!
After going through some CT fanfics and musing a lot about the Chrono series lately something kept bugging me.
Do we know what "The Black Wind" is?
Some things to consider:
-It seems mostly Magus can feel it, but Schala mentions feeling it too.
-Is it just a metaphor for disaster or an actual thing that Magus feels? Is it related to his Shadow affinity?
-Does it portend disaster or death or both? Is it related to Lavos?
Some fics have brought up some interesting theories. I remember one where it was the sound of entropy, wherein Magus always felt a background wind from the natural state of the universe slowly decaying. Another is that it is some kind of spirit of doom that for some reason shows itself mostly to Magus only.
In RD, Magus/Magil seems to have harnessed it's power-or at least make a spell that seems like it.
After going through some CT fanfics and musing a lot about the Chrono series lately something kept bugging me.
Do we know what "The Black Wind" is?
Some things to consider:
-It seems mostly Magus can feel it, but Schala mentions feeling it too.
-Is it just a metaphor for disaster or an actual thing that Magus feels? Is it related to his Shadow affinity?
-Does it portend disaster or death or both? Is it related to Lavos?
Some fics have brought up some interesting theories. I remember one where it was the sound of entropy, wherein Magus always felt a background wind from the natural state of the universe slowly decaying. Another is that it is some kind of spirit of doom that for some reason shows itself mostly to Magus only.
In RD, Magus/Magil seems to have harnessed it's power-or at least make a spell that seems like it.
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