Topics

1

Time, Space, and Dimensions / What determines a rewrite or a split?

« on: September 05, 2011, 08:27:41 pm »

Thanks to both this site and board, I think I now understand most of the temporal mechanics in the games... there's only one thing that still bugs me.

Why is it that whenever Crono and the others changed the future, the timeline was (supposedly) just written over/altered (with the old one dumped in the DBT), while when Schala intervened to save Serge the timeline split into two ongoing parallel worlds?

What makes that particular alteration to the timeline different and causes this? Was an explanation for that ever found?

It's not even that he was saved differently in one of the two worlds (like say, they managed to get to Marbule and cure him), because we know Lynx existed in both worlds, so in both worlds they ran into Shcala's storm and reached the Frozen Flame.
So technicly, it's not that one of the two worlds continued as it should have, neither of the two is the original Schala-intervention-free timeline.

And on that same note, why did her later intervention (through future!Kid?) to again save him (in only one of those worlds) not cause another split but instead make the relative Chronopolis implode into becoming the dead sea? (I know why the future destruction in 1999 is restored, but why does it show up there like that along with stuff from a peaceful 2400? Did the Time Devourer hurl?)

It looks like anytime Schala does anything somewhat resembling Crono's ordinary activities the timeline has a seizure.

And while I'm at that... why would Schala care to help Serge out of all children that happened to fall ill and die throughout the time continuum?

These questions really bug me...

2

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Kinda silly CC characters question.

« on: September 03, 2011, 10:39:33 am »

As many other RPG players, I'm a packrat. I always try my darnedest to get everything I can in RPG games.
This extends also to characters and when playing CC I regularly strived to get as many as possible.

But now I've been wondering... what characters are absolutely necessary to get, even temporarily, in your party in order to play all the way to the Dragon God?

I don't believe any minimalist guide to this game exists, so I'm going to go and guess, but I think it's actually very few.

Serge   for obvious reasons.
Kid, I'm assuming you can't proceed without her.
Guile or Nikki or Pierre. You must have one of these to get into Viper Manor, right?   
Lynx again for obvious reasons.
Harle joins automatically, right? (Does Sprigg too?)
Norris? (Is he necessary to get in the Manor ruins?)
Karsh, Zoah, Marcy and Viper   might join automatically after Chronopolis?
Starky you need to get to Terra Tower.

And I think that's it? Are there any others that necessarily join you on your way to fighting the Dragon God?
Can you skip/refuse any of the above from joining your group without being stuck?

3

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Multiple Time Traveler Immunities?

« on: September 01, 2011, 09:39:09 pm »

I've been wondering about a particular case of time travel. We probably don't ever get to see it in the game, but I'd like to know what the general consensus is on such a hypothetical situation.

Consider the case of Robo staying behind to grow a forest.
He does this for a number of years until four centuries later the heroes come by to pick him up.

Then they travel back to the past with him and the two Robo can meet one another.
According to the Time Bastard theory, the Robo we see in the past will be whisked off to the Darkness Beyond Time when four centuries later the time comes when the heroes originally recovered him.

The thing here is... Robo has already been traveling through time, so shouldn't he be covered by time traveler immunity?

To further exemplify this, here's the hypothetical situation I was thinking of...

Suppose that the following happens: the heroes, Robo included, go back to the distant past and they get captured without hope of escaping. They do however manage to leave behind some kind of message that the Robo who is growing the forest can find.

Upon getting the message, this Robo decides to find a way to travel back in time and save the heroes. He does. What happens now? Do we have two Robo that exist as completely separte entities within the timeline? Or does one of them get time bastarded? And if so, which one?

@_@

4

Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Quick Lost Sanctum Question

« on: August 16, 2011, 08:55:32 pm »

Hey guys, I'm playing the DS Re-release for the first time and just got my winged Epoch.

Now I'd love to go check out the Lost Sanctum, but there's something I'd like to ask first.

I have been told, that at the end of all quests within Lost Sanctum you find statues of three of your party members.
What I'd like to know is, how are the identities of the statues determined?

Is it the three characters that first get to meet the reptites in 65,000,000 BC (or something else done in that time period)?
Is it the ones you use to defeat the boss(es) in front of the room with the statues in 600 AD?
Or perhaps the game keeps some sort of tally of which characters completed the various quests in LS and picks those that contributed most?
Or something completely different?

Also, can I safely grab the treasure chests in the past? Or should I leave them be like in the Northern Ruins sidequest so that I can get them twice (once in 600 AD once in 65,000,000 BC)?
I imagine not, since that's quite the stretch of time for a chest to remain undisturbed, but I figured I'd ask to be on the safe side.

5

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Dragon Tears

« on: August 10, 2011, 07:46:42 pm »

I've been thinking lately about the Dragon Tears.

A huge deal of the plot from Cross is supported uniquely by the Tears and their powers.
But what do we, I ask, really know about these Tears?

I definitely do not claim to be an expert (which is why I ask in the first place), but it seems to me the answer is: very little.

Direa tells us:

  The key to activate
   this ruin is the
   '"Dragon Tear"'...
   It was given to our ancestors
   by the extinct Dragonians as a
   symbol of our friendship.

and

  This Dragonian ruin is a product
   of their '"crystal of wisdom."'
   Its power is unknown, yet much
   too powerful for any human.
   If the ruin were to be
   activated by chance, it would
   emit uncontrollable power...

Kid for her part says:

  That fort's supposedly a ruin
   built by the extinct Dragonians...
   I heard there've been all
   kinds of mystic rituals there.
   It's said that the Dragon Tear
   was needed for the rituals...

Concerning their powers, Harle suggested:

  Regarding your mémoire
   az zis Serge...
   You may be able to rewrite it
   if you use ze Dragon Tear.

Which seems quite different from returning to your old body (the opposite really, a final step to fully become Lynx).

Most interestingly, upon shattering the second Tear, Steena says:

  There is nothing we can do
   about the Dragon Tear...
   Its shattering result does
   not come as a surprise.
   However, you also carry
   the fate of the Dragon Tear
   from another world.
   The broken pieces of
   love and hate: although
   contradictory, they are two
   sides of the same coin...
   A mysterious force may
   come to light when the
   two pieces are united...
   Perhaps this force will be
   the legendary Chrono Cross...
   The only problem is, the shrine,
   which is said to give life to the
   Chrono Cross, is nothing but a
   cavern inside Divine Dragon Falls.

So yeah, it's no surprise to her that the Tear shattered... but I wonder how she... "guesses"(?) that the remains of both can be used to summon the Chrono Cross.
Either way, she also has heard a legend about a seventh dragon:

  Great Dragon Gods!
   We are yet unable to
   utilize the altar...?
   I know that we need
   the six Dragon Relics
   that offer up divine
   supplication...
   Could 'that' legend be
   true... Is there a
   seventh dragon, and a
   seventh Element...!?!

...which is interesting because I don't recall Harle giving you any sort of seventh relic before merging with the other dragons.

And I think that's pretty much all we know. Which, like I said, is very little.
I don't have a problem accepting that the Tears, having been made by the Dragon God(s?), have the power to do all the stuff they do in the game.
Rather my question is... why would they possess these powers in the first place? What was their original purpose?

We know they were supposedly used in rituals within Fort Dragonia. What manner of rituals? Could there be anything that somehow relates to the ways they are used in the game (to switch bodies or melt away one only to let its owner be reborn) but not go to such extremes that the Tear shatters?
(Does this, perhaps, have anything to do with the depictions of evolution on the walls in the top chamber of Fort Dragonia?)

Or was that the first time they were used? And if that is the case, had the Dragon God(s) planned for the events to play out the way they have? Unlike Belthasar, they shouldn't have knowledge of the future, so that seems unlikely (or was it a wild guess that at some point some child would become the arbiter of the flame and FATE would possess his father to switch bodies with him? ...yeah, this is sarcasm, obviously).
Besides, if the Dragon Gods made them, couldn't they just give Serge is own body themselves?

When was it determined, and revealed to the guardians of the Tears in the two Guldoves, that some connection existed between the Tear and the Chrono Cross? They didn't even seem to know that another world with a second Tear existed until you revealed this to them...
Yet, it seems the Dragon Gods created the two-pedestals altar in only one of the worlds after the split, either realizing only then that with two Tears it was now possible to summon the Chrono Cross, or having planned it ahead when creating the Tear in the first place (but again, I don't think they should have known the world would eventually be split in two...).
In either case, it'd make little sense to have altars for both Tears in both worlds since there's not four of them, so I really am inclined to think it was made after the split.

But how does allowing someone to summon the Chrono Cross benefit them anyway? Especially if they are only an echo of the original Dragon God that only exists to further the Time Devourer's destructive purposes...


...and I thought Chronopolis made little sense

6

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Chronopolis Contradictions

« on: July 30, 2011, 11:36:35 pm »

Greetings everybody, newcomer here.

Having spent the last few days trying to make sense of what happened in Chronopolis, I started looking around the net for answers, and this seems like the perfect place to ask for other opinions on the lovable insanity that made its way into that part of the game's script.

Now I hope this doesn't go against any of the rules here (I did read them and I think not, but you know, newbie and all that), but what I'd like to do is go through all lines that hold significance to the story of Chronopolis in an attempt to give it some coherence (an attempt that may be doomed to fail from the start, but eh, I'll give it a shot).
Think of the following as some sort of "commentary" to that part of the game, except instead of the director it's a random guy (me) voicing his rather confused thoughts.

Should I be doing something against the rules, I will of course have no objections to having this thread locked up.

So, without further ado, the first quotes of relevance come from the workers resting at the entrance.

Worker A
   I heard group 3B's experiment
   today is going to be a biggie.
   They're releasing the Flame's
   lock-level to D in order to trace
   the counter-time effect...

What is immediately established by these quotes is that from the point of view of these guys, an experiement to trace some "counter-time effect" is soon to happen.

The next few lines give better context to this.

Worler A
   Once we're done with today's
   experiment, we have that long
   awaited 3 week vacation.
   I'm heading back to Zenan
   to spend time with my family.
   My daughter's birthday is
   coming up, you know.
Worker B
   You're from Medina, right?
   I've been on this island
   for a year and a half now.
   Man, I've had enough.
   Aside from the man-made island
   with this research center,
   there isn't a single island
   in the sea of El Nido.

Now the above reveals that these guys had been in Chronopolis for no more than a year and a half consecutively and they look forward to going back to their families in the main continent, Zenan, the islands of El Nido not having come into existence yet.

Worker A
   Once we're able to counter
   time successfully at will, we'll
   have full control over time.
   We'll find out soon enough.

This is a strange answer to the statement above, but it gives an idea of what the experiment's ultimate purpose is.

Moving on, we meet the chief of the institute.

  Perhaps what we are
   doing is wrong?
   If this experiment succeeds,
   we will be able to control time.
   We will have complete control over
   history and, in a sense, become
   a presence, much like god...
   If so, what meaning is there
   to the history of mankind?
   But it's too late, now...
   We can't afford to fail
   in this experiment.
   If, for some reason, anything
   goes wrong, the anti-annihilation
   energy will probably overwhelm us.
   Who knows what the
   consequences may be?

I'm not really sure why he says it's too late to stop, but what's really interesting is that he can't imagine the consequences if something went wrong. That seems to indicate that so far, everything went well.

Up to now, it seems like these ghostly presences are stuck to the lives they led until shortly before this experiment, which supposedly occurred before the islands of El Nido came to exist. Furthermore, it doesn't look like these presences can see the party.
That all changes when we get to the Level 2 Lab.

  Where was the lock release
   for the elevator again?
   My mind's been blanking
   out lately...

   By the way...
   I saw a boy and a flashy-
   looking chick touching
   that panel...

A boy and a flashy-looking chick... call it speculation but it seems like this guy was able to see Dark Serge and Kid on their way to the Flame's chamber.

The truly interesting part though is told to us by another such presence, one that proceeds to illustrate its speech to none other than our party (as no other shadow is present to listen) by changing the image on the screen.

  Originally, El Nido was
   nothing but ocean.
   The El Nido Archipelago
   is purely artificial,
   created by FATE.
   It was a remodeling plan that
   took place 10,000 years ago.

So we have confirmation that the islands were artificially made of course. The first time I listened to this guy, I wasn't sure wheter the islands were made after Chronopolis had been sent to the past (as seems to be the case) or while still in the future (by somehow creating them in the past). The reason is that at this point I still thought all these "ghosts" to have been stuck in time at the same moment, while still in their original time, a thought only enforced by the notation that the remodeling occurred 10,000 years prior.
However we will soon see that not all staff could have been transcended at the same time, which could mean (and most likely does) that this guy is referring to 10,000 past from the current time 1020 AD, not the future Chronopolis came from. But if that was the case, then how long has this poor fellow been hanging here like this?

  The distribution of memory
   terminal devices called the
   Records of Fate that could
   survey and guide
   people's lives...
   The research center staff, who
   had their memories of the future
   erased, left the center, and began
   a life outside amidst nature.
   And for over 10,000 years,
   FATE has been watching over and
   guiding the descendants of the
   staff who left this research center.

And there we have proof that not everybody was changed into these spectral forms on the eve of the experiment, while still in the future. Part of the staff, was able to leave for the newly formed islands and live on there. But the question remains: this guy and the others that stayed behind, when were they changed to these forms? And how aware of their circumstances are they? Do they still carry out their work? Or is this a recent change (perhaps enforced by FATE who may have felt it no longer needed human assistance) and up to that moment many generations had spent their lives working the facility?

  Everything was in pefect harmony.
   That is, until 14 years ago,
   when a boy came into contact with
   the Flame on the night of the storm.

And there we have unarguable confirmation: this presence is speaking from a present time point of view and is aware of the recent events. But still, has this being been like this for a long, long time? Or was it transfigured recently (presumably after the storm)? How does it perceive itself, its (former?) coworkers and physical beings (like the party)?
Can they do nothing about those that are stuck in a previous time of their lives or are they not even aware of them?

Now the next bit is said upon finding a certain item. It's not a big deal but kind of strange.

Grobyc:
   This-cannot-be...
   This-is-the-ancient-super
   weapon-that-was-in
   development-in-Porre.
   But-what-is-it-doing-here?
   It-looks-complete.

When I first ran into this, I thought "Oh well, someone in Home must have taken this to one of the islands in ancient times before the place got turned into the Dead Sea" (Luccia says it was "excavated near an ancient ruin"). Problem there is, Grobyc comes from Another, not Home. Oh well.

So then, onward to Level 3 East Lab.

  Memory scanning and
   rewriting is not that
   difficult a thing.
   As a matter of fact, it
   is possible to simulate
   the thoughts and feelings
   of each individual.
   These are all just electric
   signals that flow around
   the circuitry of the brain,
   after all.
   The vessels of flesh can
   be reproduced through
   cloning...
   And the '"soul"'
   stored within these
   fleshly vessels can
   be simulated as well...
   Thus, one could even go so
   far as to say that death
   itself no longer exists.

Can this be the explanation as to what these shadow workers are? Simulations made from back ups of the people that lived in Chronopolis? But why bother if they'd only end up being stuck reliving the same moment over and over again? And if not all of them are (again, someone seems to have noticed Dark Serge and Kid), then why only some?

Much more is said in that lab but nothing, I believe, concerning the history of Chronopolis, so let us move on to Level 3 West Lab where a computer terminal tells us the following.

  There are those who believe
   that, 12 thousand years ago,
   the legendary ancient magical
   civilization known as Zeal
   came into contact with Lavos.
   That fateful encounter is
   said to have resulted in
   Zeal disappearing from the
   surface of the planet within
   the space of a single night.

Important note! This document dates the destruction of Zeal 12 thousand years ago. This is in stark difference to the recurring number of 10 thousand years ago. It could be that ten thousand is an approximation, but why not approximate only this one time (when a clear reference to Zeal's destruction, which we know occurred in 12,000 BC, is made)?
On the other hand... when was this recording made? Because if it dates back to the original timeframe of Chronopolis, ranging sometime between 2300 and 2400 AD, then the date doesn't match (12 thousand before that time would be 9700 or 9600 BC). If it was after Chronopolis was sent 10,000 years in the past, it'd be even worse (2400 - 10000 would make its destination 7600, going back 12,000 more years would mean 19,600). The only way the statement can truly be correct is if it was written after Chronopolis was sent back in time and only once it reached year 0 (many millennia later).
Ugh...

  However, the very existence
   of the ancient civilization
   of Zeal has never been proven,
   so up till this day this
   theory cannot be confirmed.

And for this one line it becomes rather important to figure when the document was written. If it was before Chronopolis was sent back in time, then no problem. But if it was written afterwards, that would mean Chronopolis did in fact most likely arrive a few millenia after the destruction of Zeal, or evidence of its existence would probably have been found.

  This very research facility
   exists on that new time line...
   In a world where, thanks to
   the defeat of Lavos by the
   young adventurers, the
   Apocalypse never happened...
   On a temporal vector where
   human civilization continued
   to evolve unhampered.

This would hold true regardless of whether Chronopolis was still in its original time or not. Just figured I'd point that out.

Again, much more is said but doesn't seem relevant to this discussion. So onward to Level 4 East Lab.

  In the 11th Century, a scientist
   by the name of Lucca indicated the
   possibility of time travel through
   the use of a '"Time Egg,"' which
   utilizes miniature black holes.
   Whether this could actually be
   possible or not is still the
   subject of intense debate and
   no conclusions have been made.

Okay, unless I'm completely mistaken, the presences in this room seem to be stuck to before they managed to perform any actual time travel (unless they have and it's only this particular form of tiem travel that is still not proven possible). Regardless I find it amusing that millennia after that discussion the computer display is still humoring them...

Further evidence of this:

Researcher B
   I've heard that the Time Egg
   already existed during the
   legendary, ancient dynasty.
Researcher A
   We shouldn't have to rely
   on theories from an ancient
   civilization that may not
   have even existed.
   We can do this.
Researcher B
   But it's been said that time was
   altered using the Time Egg...
Researcher A
   That's just a legend.

Interestingly, this guy seems to dismiss any prior time travel as legend, which flies in the face of the factual account concerning Lavos that was provided in the other lab.

Now initially the next line had me really confused.

  The experiment should
   be starting soon.
   After we discovered an unusual
   gravitational field in this
   barren sea of El Nido we built
   several artificial islands and
   established Chronopolis.
   This was all done to facilitate
   our top secret research.
   But now, our research is
   about to come to its end.
   Once the final adjustments
   are made, the experiment will
   commence.

I thought they where talking about the entire archipelago here, but that made little sense since it supposedly was made after Chronopolis was sent back in time and this conversation is from before they made any breakthroughs in time travel. Eventually I figured out they meant the islands on which Chronopolis and the three Moirae statues stand. Just thought I'd mention it for anyone who may still find this confusing (I'd say it's understandable considering a previous qoute stated "Aside from the man-made island with this research center, there isn't a single island in the sea of El Nido." and I didn't really have the three islands protecting Chronopolis in mind at the time).

Now something interesting... at the end of this dialogue we are told that "The chief hasn't returned yet." and "Then, we'll have to hold off until he gets back."
Why interesting? Because we do need for him to get back before the way onward will open... so not only the computer display is responding to these people stuck before the experiment, even door security. One would almost think the experiment may occur every time the ghosts play out their parts, but I imagine FATE sees to it that it doesn't.

Now then for Level 4 West Lab

  This is the observation room.
   This is where we observe
   the 2 parallel worlds.
   Under the surveillance of the
   main computer of Chronopolis...
   '"FATE."

A room to observe THE two parallel worlds. Considering that they only split 14 years ago this room should be very recent. And yet it has its "ghosts" manning it. Again we have to wonder if these guys are still working or have been until recently being transformed.
Also, throughout the game we've run into the concept that thre may be other worlds (such as one in which the Reptites survived), so why call these THE two worlds? In this very room, we have a recording from Radical Dreamers, however the comment offered by one of the characters is that "Aside from the two worlds we already know about... there may be other worlds and times which exist...". Perhaps (contrary to popular belief?) Radical Dreamers is not its own world but merely a previous state of the timeline?
But we still have to contend with the Reptites world, so maybe the reason only these two worlds are monitored is because they are the only ones that concern FATE directly?

  However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago...
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.

And if someone other than FATE (who I don't believe speaks of itself in third person) has left this record, this proves that someone has been actively working here even after the formation of the Dead Sea.
I have to wonder about this crossing the dimension bit though. Is that what Lynx does in his spare time? Cross dimensions to deliver data? (Can he even do that without an amulet like Kid's? Remember all the trouble we had to go back when becoming Lynx?)
Also isn't it weird that Home is labeled 1 considering that the true natural flow of time was that of Another? You'd think FATE would know that.

Lastly, once in the basement...

  96% confirmation that this
   individual is the last
   registered arbiter.
   Access granted.
  
   Welcome back,
   Chrono Trigger.

Anybody's got any clue why Serge is being called a Chrono Trigger (which last time I checked was a synonymous of time egg) by the surveillance system? Because I dont' have the faintest.

Next for something Lynx says concerning the night of the storm.

  But they were blown off
   course and came ashore on
   this island, where they
   decided to seek shelter.
   At the time, this research
   center was off-line due to
   the severity of the storm.
   It only took 10 minutes for
   the system to power back up,
   but by then, the Flame had
   found you...

Okay so the research center was off-line... where the workers off-line too? I mean, did no one notice Serge being carried by his father to the most off-limits of rooms in the place? Could this be confirmation that the ghostly presences are computer generated back ups of the facility's personnel? Meaning they were off-line at the time? Truthfully we see no one in the entry hall during Miguel's flashback, and considering that the two presences there were reliving their time before Chronopolis was sent back, they should have been there already.

All in all, I dunno whether they are ghosts or computer generated personnel. The latter would explain their absence during the storm (though I guess such an event could also influence "time ghosts") and it does seem like some of them are still working actively... but at the same time some others clearly are not (being stuck in the past) and even those that do notice living people (Dark Serge, Kid, the party) don't seem to react properly (why is everyone so willing to give us lectures on how the place works rather than call security?).
Personally, I'd like to think they are ghosts that were created in two separate occasions: during the experiment that hurled Chronopolis back in time and when Dark Serge took Kid into the Frozen Flame rooms (in the later occasion turning into ghosts the descendants of the original staff that hadn't left for the islands). If anything the fact that the Dead Sea has similar "time ghosts" from the various futures it is made of would seem to indicate this... but there's no way the few people in Chronopolis could have made for a stable gene pool, sufficient to carry them on for 10,000 years, so it seems we have to fall back on the computer back ups theory.

Finally for Kid's speech.

  In the year 2400, during a
   counter-time experiment, the
   Flame goes out of control...
   This causes the dimensions
   to rip apart, resultin' in
   the Time Crash.
   Engulfed in an enormous
   dimensional vortex,
   Chronopolis was hurled ten
   thousand years back in time.

Uh, but I thought the Tower of Geddon was "Time Crash Ground Zero", implying that the Time Crash was what created the Dead Sea. It certainly made more sense to me seeing as time in the dead sea seems to have crashed to a halt much like a computer's system crash.
Also, once again, Chronopolis is said to have been sent back 10 thousand years, which from 2,400 AD would be 7600 BC. In order for it to be sent all the way back to the fall of Zeal, the correct amount would be 14400 years, which is closer to 15 than 10 (quite the big difference). Kid also says this:

  At the same time, another
   city from a different
   dimension's future, was
   also thrown back in time.
   Dinopolis...

And Belthasar states that Dinopolis was sent back about 10 thousand years in the past.
However Lucca's ghost says both that Zeal's destrcution occurred in 12,000 BC and that Schala traveled ten thousand years forward from there to reach Serge (while Kid says she has been waiting for ten thousand years, gah) and the Frozen Flame tells Kid that the kingdom was destroyed ten thousand years ago... so I give up! I have no idea whether Chronopolis went back to 7,600 or 12,000 BC!

  Perhaps it was the awakenin'
   Lavos who pulled the Frozen
   Flame back through time to it.
   Maybe so that Lavos, who saw
   the possibility that some young
   adventurers might destroy it,
   could create a backup plan.

Considering Chronopolis existed in the first place because Lavos was defeated, I'm very tempted to call BS on that "perhaps" there. Especially since we all know the Chrono games don't work on predestination, so Lavos couldn't see into the future before the change was made by destroying him.

Aaand... that's about it. I hope I didn't bore the heck out of you guys (if so, sorry!) and that you may help me clear up any points where I may have misinterpreted the game.