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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / For any who play the "QuizUp" trivia app, I just suggested a CT topic
« on: January 10, 2015, 03:33:19 am »
QuizUp is a really fun and free trivia game that pits you against a random person in the world, within any number of topics - from TV shows to books to video games, etc. It already has topics on more mainstream stuff like Mario and Zelda, but also on some more obscure solo games. Chrono Trigger isn't currently one, so I just offered it as a suggestion on the suggestion page. Basically topics get made once enough people vote for them to exist (up to 3 votes per person per suggested topic).
So I just thought I'd mention that here, for any who happen to play that game. If you'd care to put some votes in for it, this is the link:
http://suggestions.quizup.com/forums/242990-topic-suggestions/suggestions/6936819-chrono-trigger
If nobody here plays that, then never mind, and sorry for wasting your time.
Just thought it would be fun to have some CT trivia in the game.
So I just thought I'd mention that here, for any who happen to play that game. If you'd care to put some votes in for it, this is the link:
http://suggestions.quizup.com/forums/242990-topic-suggestions/suggestions/6936819-chrono-trigger
If nobody here plays that, then never mind, and sorry for wasting your time.
Just thought it would be fun to have some CT trivia in the game.
2
Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Anyone know where I could find more CC FMV pics?
« on: October 24, 2012, 02:14:02 am »
I recently lost my laptop, and had to replace it. Among the many things that were lost were my Chrono folders with pictures, quotes, etc. I originally got them over a decade ago, to use in a web site I created in college (which I also still had, until losing the laptop). So I came here first, looking to replace the pictures. The CT ones were easy, as this site has every scene picture there is - and in a very good size. However, there's a lot more out there for CC, since it has beautiful FMVs. Pretty much all of my favorite pics from that game come from them.
So I went to the Official Art section here, and the Scenes section had some of the ones I had, like Kid, Harle, and the Frozen Flame. But there were more I had that I'm hoping to find. Doing a general internet search, I found some, but very small in size. Here's an example of two I'd like to find in a better size and quality - they're my favorite for Serge and Lynx, what I'd choose as their main pictures:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gh1-SxRMzgk/TKo32tko2YI/AAAAAAAAAE4/N3SIdY0GgAY/s1600/serge_cc.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_q6_k0MU_cjg/TC4VZkB9-pI/AAAAAAAAAU8/Yq4YeH6CTl4/s1600/lynx.jpg
The Serge one seems to be less prevalent than other Serge ones; and the picture of Lynx looking back in the burning orphanage is all over the place, while the one in the link is harder to find. Oh, and that Lynx one is an okay size, but I was hoping for one closer to a laptop screen size, to use as one of many backgrounds. Likewise, some of the ones at this site - like the Kid one - were a little small for me (as opposed to some of the CT ones, which were insanely huge), so I was able to find a larger one. It's tougher with some of these more obscure ones.
So, I thought I'd ask if anyone knows a place (or places) to look for other CC pics, and at a larger pixel size. Thanks in advance for any help.
So I went to the Official Art section here, and the Scenes section had some of the ones I had, like Kid, Harle, and the Frozen Flame. But there were more I had that I'm hoping to find. Doing a general internet search, I found some, but very small in size. Here's an example of two I'd like to find in a better size and quality - they're my favorite for Serge and Lynx, what I'd choose as their main pictures:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gh1-SxRMzgk/TKo32tko2YI/AAAAAAAAAE4/N3SIdY0GgAY/s1600/serge_cc.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_q6_k0MU_cjg/TC4VZkB9-pI/AAAAAAAAAU8/Yq4YeH6CTl4/s1600/lynx.jpg
The Serge one seems to be less prevalent than other Serge ones; and the picture of Lynx looking back in the burning orphanage is all over the place, while the one in the link is harder to find. Oh, and that Lynx one is an okay size, but I was hoping for one closer to a laptop screen size, to use as one of many backgrounds. Likewise, some of the ones at this site - like the Kid one - were a little small for me (as opposed to some of the CT ones, which were insanely huge), so I was able to find a larger one. It's tougher with some of these more obscure ones.
So, I thought I'd ask if anyone knows a place (or places) to look for other CC pics, and at a larger pixel size. Thanks in advance for any help.
3
Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / So, are the bonus endings supposed to be semi-canon?
« on: July 16, 2012, 01:26:18 am »
I mean, I know they're not part of the true outcome of the game, but are they supposed to be be accurate portrayals of how the timeline really would have been affected by ending the journey at different times?
I only ask because, over at GameFAQs, there's a topic about how the Ayla vs. Azala rivalry played out originally, before Crono's involvement. And the ending where all humans are now reptites was cited during an explanation. The last post made a lot more sense than an earlier one that seemed really out there, so I'll refer to the last one. He said that, originally, the rivalry wasn't escalated by the confrontation over Kino and the Gate Key, and then Lavos wiped out Azala and the reptites before any real war could take place. But that, after the Gate Key incident, Crono had inadvertently created more friction, leading to the burning of Laruba and so forth. That makes sense. And so if you go and defeat Lavos without helping Ayla defeat Azala, the reptites win out, leading to the ending.
But that leaves me skeptical. I mean, no matter how much or little Crono altered things, Lavos would've crashed all the same. How could the reptite ending be possible then, even with Crono's partial involvement. Did it cause Azala to away from home leading an attack when Lavos smashed the lair?
To be honest, I never really thought any of the endings were meant to be taken all that seriously. I know there's one with Frog going to fight Magus, and Magus (as the Prophet) doing his thing in Zeal - realistic possibilities. But Frog marrying Leene? Tata venturing through Magus's castle, and running into Crono, Marle, and Lucca laughing maniacally, appearing to be bad for some reason? Though funny, those events don't make much sense in terms of realism, no matter when you fight Lavos. And I always considered the reptite ending to be along those same lines.
But I'm asking the question in the topic title because I guess I don't really know if I've been mistaken, and those endings CAN be used when trying to analyze the series. I knew this was the place to ask. Thanks in advance.
I only ask because, over at GameFAQs, there's a topic about how the Ayla vs. Azala rivalry played out originally, before Crono's involvement. And the ending where all humans are now reptites was cited during an explanation. The last post made a lot more sense than an earlier one that seemed really out there, so I'll refer to the last one. He said that, originally, the rivalry wasn't escalated by the confrontation over Kino and the Gate Key, and then Lavos wiped out Azala and the reptites before any real war could take place. But that, after the Gate Key incident, Crono had inadvertently created more friction, leading to the burning of Laruba and so forth. That makes sense. And so if you go and defeat Lavos without helping Ayla defeat Azala, the reptites win out, leading to the ending.
But that leaves me skeptical. I mean, no matter how much or little Crono altered things, Lavos would've crashed all the same. How could the reptite ending be possible then, even with Crono's partial involvement. Did it cause Azala to away from home leading an attack when Lavos smashed the lair?
To be honest, I never really thought any of the endings were meant to be taken all that seriously. I know there's one with Frog going to fight Magus, and Magus (as the Prophet) doing his thing in Zeal - realistic possibilities. But Frog marrying Leene? Tata venturing through Magus's castle, and running into Crono, Marle, and Lucca laughing maniacally, appearing to be bad for some reason? Though funny, those events don't make much sense in terms of realism, no matter when you fight Lavos. And I always considered the reptite ending to be along those same lines.
But I'm asking the question in the topic title because I guess I don't really know if I've been mistaken, and those endings CAN be used when trying to analyze the series. I knew this was the place to ask. Thanks in advance.
4
Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Chrono Music on Keyboard
« on: June 19, 2012, 11:35:39 pm »
So I've owned both Chrono piano score books for about a decade, and have always wanted to be able to play my favorite songs on the keyboard, which I also have. Problem is, I don't know how to play the keyboard - at all. Nonetheless, I finally made myself at least try to learn to play some of them, within the last few months. And somehow, I've been at least somewhat successful.
I started with my favorite song from each game - "At the Bottom of Night" and "The Girl Who Stole the Stars". Since those were the two I first worked on and have worked on the most, I've reached the point where I can play at least those two at pretty much the normal speed, with minimal mistakes. For others, I've been able to memorize how to play them at least, even if I can only play them really slowly. So here's the list of songs I've been able to memorize:
Chrono Trigger:
-Chrono Trigger
-Secret of the Forest
-The Kingdom Trial
-Singing Mountain
-At the Bottom of Night
-Sealed Door
-Undersea Palace
-Crono & Marle ~ Far Off Promise
-Determination
-World Revolution
-Last Battle
(In addition to these nice quick ones - Goodnight, Huh?!, A Prayer to the Travelers, Mystery of the Past)
Chrono Cross:
-Arni Village ~ Home World
-Reminiscing ~ Uneraseable Memory
-Guldove ~ Another World
-Fragment of a Dream
-Grief
-Beginning of a Dream
-A Narrow Space Between Dimensions
-Magical Dreamers ~ The Wind, Stars, and Waves
-Burning Orphanage
-The Girl Who Stole the Stars
(And these meager ones - Magic from the Fairies, Etude 1, Etude 2, Terra Tower [only because I found a keyboard style that sounded just like those bells, so why not - took all of 3 minutes])
Many of them are so hard to play that it's a stretch to say I can play them - even if I have memorized them. I've also sometimes been surprised by the difficulty of some of them. For instance, Determination - though short - is frustratingly hard (because there's a lot of playing 4 simultaneous notes with one hand, not my forte), while World Revolution - much longer - is way easier for me (largely solo notes). Last Battle basically just has two parts, repeated over and over and over. But it's so crazy fast, with no pauses, that I can't handle it. Others really tough for me are Sealed Door, Guldove, Chrono Trigger (one part at least is just too hard for me), and Magical Dreamers is just ridiculous. I have trouble focusing on multiple parts when their tempos aren't in sync.
The ones I can play a litter better are Singing Mountain, Undersea Palace (oh how I love that song - easily my favorite dungeon music ever), Crono & Marle, World Revolution, Reminiscing, Fragment of a Dream, and Grief / Beginning of a Dream / Narrow Space Between Dimensions (as my favorite part of CC, I wanted to learn to play those 3 together).
Anyway, just wanted to share what I've been working on - I hope to get better at these and more. It's funny - all I care about learning to play are the songs from these games. Outside of those, I have no particular interest in learning other stuff. I just love this music.
I started with my favorite song from each game - "At the Bottom of Night" and "The Girl Who Stole the Stars". Since those were the two I first worked on and have worked on the most, I've reached the point where I can play at least those two at pretty much the normal speed, with minimal mistakes. For others, I've been able to memorize how to play them at least, even if I can only play them really slowly. So here's the list of songs I've been able to memorize:
Chrono Trigger:
-Chrono Trigger
-Secret of the Forest
-The Kingdom Trial
-Singing Mountain
-At the Bottom of Night
-Sealed Door
-Undersea Palace
-Crono & Marle ~ Far Off Promise
-Determination
-World Revolution
-Last Battle
(In addition to these nice quick ones - Goodnight, Huh?!, A Prayer to the Travelers, Mystery of the Past)
Chrono Cross:
-Arni Village ~ Home World
-Reminiscing ~ Uneraseable Memory
-Guldove ~ Another World
-Fragment of a Dream
-Grief
-Beginning of a Dream
-A Narrow Space Between Dimensions
-Magical Dreamers ~ The Wind, Stars, and Waves
-Burning Orphanage
-The Girl Who Stole the Stars
(And these meager ones - Magic from the Fairies, Etude 1, Etude 2, Terra Tower [only because I found a keyboard style that sounded just like those bells, so why not - took all of 3 minutes])
Many of them are so hard to play that it's a stretch to say I can play them - even if I have memorized them. I've also sometimes been surprised by the difficulty of some of them. For instance, Determination - though short - is frustratingly hard (because there's a lot of playing 4 simultaneous notes with one hand, not my forte), while World Revolution - much longer - is way easier for me (largely solo notes). Last Battle basically just has two parts, repeated over and over and over. But it's so crazy fast, with no pauses, that I can't handle it. Others really tough for me are Sealed Door, Guldove, Chrono Trigger (one part at least is just too hard for me), and Magical Dreamers is just ridiculous. I have trouble focusing on multiple parts when their tempos aren't in sync.
The ones I can play a litter better are Singing Mountain, Undersea Palace (oh how I love that song - easily my favorite dungeon music ever), Crono & Marle, World Revolution, Reminiscing, Fragment of a Dream, and Grief / Beginning of a Dream / Narrow Space Between Dimensions (as my favorite part of CC, I wanted to learn to play those 3 together).
Anyway, just wanted to share what I've been working on - I hope to get better at these and more. It's funny - all I care about learning to play are the songs from these games. Outside of those, I have no particular interest in learning other stuff. I just love this music.
5
Chrono Compendium Discussion / Just a Topic of Appreciation
« on: June 17, 2012, 04:05:29 am »
Hey. I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this site. You guys have done a staggering amount of research, and have tackled some tough questions about the series. This is always the place I go to and reference when I answer questions elsewhere, like on GameFAQs. Thanks for everything, and keep up the good work!
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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Wanted to share how I feel about Chrono Cross, and why.
« on: June 17, 2012, 04:00:29 am »
First off, for you Cross fans, I assure you - this topic is NOT about bashing the game. And I fully respect the opinions of anyone that enjoys it. I merely wanted to share the specific reasons why the game made me feel... I don't know, sad about the effect it had on the Chrono world. So these are just my feelings regarding it, no more or less valid than anyone else's. I certainly have no intention of antagonizing.
To start, I will tell you (probably not to anyone's surprise) that Chrono Trigger is my all-time favorite game. Everyone looks for different things in a game. For me, there are really only two main elements that matter to me - characters and story. Gameplay and stuff like that really won't make or break a game for me. In 1996, when I was 12, I went to a video game rental place, as per usual. I came across a game box that caught my eye. I read the blurb on the back, and thought it sounded really cool. For some reason, I didn't realize it was an RPG - good thing, since I didn't care for RPG's at all. Primarily because of random battle encounters - it was annoying to me. I started playing it, and... I became completely hooked. I went out and bought it for 70 bucks, and still have that copy today (though I now just use the Wii Virtual Console for it). Chrono Trigger became my favorite video game, and 16 years later, it still is. Here is why I loved (and still love) it:
The characters. It started with Crono and Marle at the fair. And I could name them - that was really cool to me. I'd had a crush on a girl for a long time (despite still being so young) - so I used our names. One by one, the characters came on the scene - and I really liked them all. They were simple, of course, but each one pretty unique. And they were just good, ya know? Altruistic, positive, supporting each other - just really likable. I guess I'm drawn to that kind of thing - a close group of friends, even putting their lives on the line for each other. And even the idea of 7 people coming together from 5 vastly different eras - joining together for one cause. They were a fun bunch, yet all with their own weighty moments. I don't know, it was just... great, to me.
The story. Here's how I'd describe it - epic in scope, yet easy to grasp. The story was fascinating, but still so simple. Now, I love stories with time travel - probably why I rented the game after reading the back. But this game did something really special with that concept, I thought. Yeah, time travel is cool, but that wasn't my favorite part of the story. My favorite part(s) were the stories of the characters themselves. Marle turning from upbeat to obsessive and relentless trying to get Crono back. Lucca and her mother. Robo instantly offering to labor for 400 years. Lucca fixing him 3 different times. Robo giving her the Green Dream, and the moment they share. Glenn & Cyrus; Glenn's subsequent low self-esteem; Glenn vs. Magus. Magus and Schala; Magus swallowing his pride and joining the good guys. Schala and her mother. The 3 Gurus all playing a necessary role from each of their eras. Ayla and Azala, right before Lavos crashes. Ayla's lonely "It's all on me" mindset, and then learning to let friends help. Marle and her father. Robo standing up to his creator. And of course, the campfire scene. On and on and on... THOSE are the stories that stuck with me. For me, those are the stories that made the game - and made it my all-time favorite.
I must add - although music isn't up there with story and characters in terms of importance to me... Well, come on - the music was staggering, and I got the soundtrack as soon as I could.
Up to that point, I had primarily been a Mario and Zelda player - I generally bought all those games right when they came out, or else pre-ordered. Not so with CT, obviously. But when I first found out about a sequel to Trigger... my head just about exploded. I pre-ordered it LONG in advance. I started Chrono Cross, more excited than over any other game I'd ever played. So much so that I sort of kept the rose-colored glasses on for the entire 60 hours of play, regardless of what was going on. (That's probably a high hour total - I played through it with a friend, and could only get together for a few hours at a time, over the course of like 3 months. I still have a piece of paper on which I kept track of the dates of each session, along with what part of the story we did.) Well, after beating the game the wrong way, and then the right way... I didn't really... know what to say. Essentially, I just sort of scratched my head. As the years passed, and playthroughs increased in number, I figured out why:
Characters. Okay, so everyone knows what I'll say about that. A mystifying number of characters. My friend and I, during that first time through, reached the point where we just laughed every time some... thing forced its way into the mix (the times we weren't given an option). When we got a ways in, and 4 characters were forcibly piled on all at once on the S.S. Invincible... that kind of pushed it over the top, for me. Now yes, I know, "You don't need to use them all. Having 44 characters allows for individual customization." True. But here's my problem with that motif. These aren't inanimate elements or pieces of armor. These are living, intelligent creatures. Chrono Trigger made me feel like each of the 7 characters mattered. They were all needed. They each had their own entire section within the game. They each played a pivotal role in the overarching story. They were people. In Cross... it felt to me like they were a shopping list of options. There was no way for me to have them with me nearly enough to become familiar with them, to care about them individually. To illustrate: If you go to a party with a friend, and there's 42 other people there, that you don't know - maybe you'll feel out of place, or overwhelmed. You could stay there for a long time and even go unnoticed. On the other hand, if you go to a friend's house, and there's 5 other people there, that you don't know - there's no way you would escape notice. You'd have no choice but to become part of the mix. It would only be natural. Other than Serge and Kid, I personally didn't care very much about any of the characters. I know there are other main ones, like Norris and Harle and Viper, etc. But with all of them, they'd have a small segment where they were in the party, and then a new character would be thrown in my face, so I felt compelled to swap them out. There just couldn't be a lot of face time for them all. (That said, I really did love the Serge & Kid storyline and moments.)
Story. Oh boy, story... Again, scratched my head. For me, this was the most ridiculously complex story I'd ever witnessed - completely the opposite of Trigger. And some of the explanations were so bizarre that... well, I didn't believe it. But there were also some pretty pivotal parts to the story that, though I could grasp them, just didn't calculate right. A lot of them centered around Belthasar. Here's how I personally felt regarding him: In Chrono Trigger, all 3 of the Gurus seemed, much like the 7 heroes, altruistic. They didn't support the Queen, and they all did what they could to stop Lavos. And they were very, very intelligent, very wise. Okay, so... Lavos has been taken down; Belthasar now lives in a peaceful future world in 2300 AD; he starts researching and experimenting with time; ..... See, that's where I start to not understand. If, as far as he knows, all is now right with Earth - Why would he keep messing with time? I realize he's a brilliant scientist with much time travel knowledge, and he no doubt WANTS to keep up time research. But the Belthasar I remember from CT was also responsible. (Yes, he was going insane in the future, so we can't learn much - but looking at his two fellow Gurus, they all seemed that way to me.) And with no more known threat... it just didn't seem like something he would do - but that's just how it seemed to me. The idea that he started up with time stuff again because he wanted to find/save Schala doesn't compute with me either. For the same reason - I realize how close he was to her, but it wouldn't be responsible to mess with this kind of stuff just to save one person. Still, if it's just a matter of being eccentric, like Doc Brown - okay, fair enough. I also realize that Gaspar could very well have informed him of this new Time Devourer threat from the End of Time. (If I'm getting some of these events wrong, I apologize. It's been a while, and it's hard to keep them sorted out in my head.) But then there's "Project Kid". There's so many things I find wrong with the kinds of events that Belthasar knew and planned, but I'll just pick the biggest one I can think of. He's doing time research, so let's say that yeah, he can see what people will do what, how this or that will be affected. My biggest holdup is the part where the Entity (Earth) pulls in Dinopolis from another dimension. First, is it just accepted that Belthasar knows of alternate dimensions now? Either way, how could he cause or know or predict an action that would be taken by the very planet itself, ahead of time? Does he control the planet now? These are just some of the examples that, even if not inconsistencies, seem not to make a great deal of sense or logic - again, just to me.
Buy hey, when it came to music - I think it's hard to find anyone that doesn't love the soundtrack, which I also bought of course.
But there are two more facets of Chrono Cross that upset me, perhaps even more than how the characters and story were handled. The first is this: How it felt to me, while playing this game, was that the world that I knew from Chrono Trigger was shattered, right down to the very characters. Crono (dead or whereabouts unknown), Marle (dead or whereabouts unknown), Lucca (likely dead or on the run), Robo (dead). Though we don't know much that's concrete, suffice it to say that Kato decided that all 4 of them would have a dark, gloomy outcome. Tell me, how often does that happen in a fictional story? In Empire Strikes Back, were we told "By the way, a few years after Episode IV, Luke, Han, and Leia all died or went missing"? In Back to the Future II, were we told "Well, Marty and Doc did a good job restoring their future. Oh, but sad to say, they died a little while later"? Is it fundamentally wrong to do something like that? Of course not. But by and large, fans of a series or game don't like it when the heroes of the story all get vanquished. So, since it almost never happens, it was just upsetting to me that the heroes of my favorite game, characters that I really liked, would get that treatment. But also the world itself. Guardia, the happy kingdom, that's lasted for 1000 years, that has prosperity ahead of it, with Crono and Marle as prince and princess... has now... been... BURNED TO THE GROUND just 5 years later. Heh heh... uh, what? That fun little twist... was it really essential to Cross's plot? Yes, it set up the storyline of Porre's rise to power. But I'm pretty sure they could have thought of many other explanations. And then, Chronopolis (and then Dinopolis) being ripped from the future(s) and shoved into the past, terraforming the world that I got to explore in Trigger.
What happened to the CT heroes and Guardia sets up my last qualm - one that, I would really think, even Cross lovers might agree with. A big reason this game, this sequel, upset me was that... to me, it FELT nothing like Trigger. I didn't need to have the very same characters, or same towns, or what have you. That's not what I'm talking about. It's this: The world and characters of CT felt jovial, bright, upbeat, optimistic. That of CC felt extremely dark, gloomy, defeatist in nature. And other stuff: Basically every character in CT had no accent or dialect (except Frog, for instance). In CC, pretty much each and every one of the 44 playable characters does. (I'm not insisting that's worse or anything, I'm just pointing out elements that were completely different between the games.) In CT, NPC's just talked... normal. Normal, every day, nothing special: "Hello! Going to the fair?" In CC, every person on the planet is a certified philosopher, musing on life or lamenting over past events or... whatever. And that contrast is easily noticed best when you compare the endings of the games. CT has the 7 heroes, saying goodbyes, joking, getting emotional, just... normal stuff. Now I encourage you to read the closing soliloquy by Schala/Kid, at the end of Chrono Cross. And then try to tell me these two games aren't bafflingly different.
That's the point of this whole post. Although Chrono Cross isn't suited for me, I don't doubt that it's still a very fine game. But as a sequel - when I play each game, almost everything feels... just, different. I didn't need a "Chrono Trigger 2", as they say. I'm fine with sequels making changes. But if you change virtually everything, if it's difficult to see the similarities, it kind of waters down the meaning of the word sequel.
Anyway, as someone whose favorite game is Trigger, those are the reasons why Cross really upset me, saddened me. I apologize for any unintended tone of annoyance in what I wrote. Like I said, this is only my perspective. If someone made a post and said everything the opposite of what I have, it would be just as valid, and I'd be fine with that. I'm not looking to argue. I guess I just wanted to write out all this for a while, on this truly impressive site that understands the series better than anyone else out there, even a 16 year veteran like me. Again, sorry for any game facts I got wrong and, well, sorry for this wearily long post.
To start, I will tell you (probably not to anyone's surprise) that Chrono Trigger is my all-time favorite game. Everyone looks for different things in a game. For me, there are really only two main elements that matter to me - characters and story. Gameplay and stuff like that really won't make or break a game for me. In 1996, when I was 12, I went to a video game rental place, as per usual. I came across a game box that caught my eye. I read the blurb on the back, and thought it sounded really cool. For some reason, I didn't realize it was an RPG - good thing, since I didn't care for RPG's at all. Primarily because of random battle encounters - it was annoying to me. I started playing it, and... I became completely hooked. I went out and bought it for 70 bucks, and still have that copy today (though I now just use the Wii Virtual Console for it). Chrono Trigger became my favorite video game, and 16 years later, it still is. Here is why I loved (and still love) it:
The characters. It started with Crono and Marle at the fair. And I could name them - that was really cool to me. I'd had a crush on a girl for a long time (despite still being so young) - so I used our names. One by one, the characters came on the scene - and I really liked them all. They were simple, of course, but each one pretty unique. And they were just good, ya know? Altruistic, positive, supporting each other - just really likable. I guess I'm drawn to that kind of thing - a close group of friends, even putting their lives on the line for each other. And even the idea of 7 people coming together from 5 vastly different eras - joining together for one cause. They were a fun bunch, yet all with their own weighty moments. I don't know, it was just... great, to me.
The story. Here's how I'd describe it - epic in scope, yet easy to grasp. The story was fascinating, but still so simple. Now, I love stories with time travel - probably why I rented the game after reading the back. But this game did something really special with that concept, I thought. Yeah, time travel is cool, but that wasn't my favorite part of the story. My favorite part(s) were the stories of the characters themselves. Marle turning from upbeat to obsessive and relentless trying to get Crono back. Lucca and her mother. Robo instantly offering to labor for 400 years. Lucca fixing him 3 different times. Robo giving her the Green Dream, and the moment they share. Glenn & Cyrus; Glenn's subsequent low self-esteem; Glenn vs. Magus. Magus and Schala; Magus swallowing his pride and joining the good guys. Schala and her mother. The 3 Gurus all playing a necessary role from each of their eras. Ayla and Azala, right before Lavos crashes. Ayla's lonely "It's all on me" mindset, and then learning to let friends help. Marle and her father. Robo standing up to his creator. And of course, the campfire scene. On and on and on... THOSE are the stories that stuck with me. For me, those are the stories that made the game - and made it my all-time favorite.
I must add - although music isn't up there with story and characters in terms of importance to me... Well, come on - the music was staggering, and I got the soundtrack as soon as I could.
Up to that point, I had primarily been a Mario and Zelda player - I generally bought all those games right when they came out, or else pre-ordered. Not so with CT, obviously. But when I first found out about a sequel to Trigger... my head just about exploded. I pre-ordered it LONG in advance. I started Chrono Cross, more excited than over any other game I'd ever played. So much so that I sort of kept the rose-colored glasses on for the entire 60 hours of play, regardless of what was going on. (That's probably a high hour total - I played through it with a friend, and could only get together for a few hours at a time, over the course of like 3 months. I still have a piece of paper on which I kept track of the dates of each session, along with what part of the story we did.) Well, after beating the game the wrong way, and then the right way... I didn't really... know what to say. Essentially, I just sort of scratched my head. As the years passed, and playthroughs increased in number, I figured out why:
Characters. Okay, so everyone knows what I'll say about that. A mystifying number of characters. My friend and I, during that first time through, reached the point where we just laughed every time some... thing forced its way into the mix (the times we weren't given an option). When we got a ways in, and 4 characters were forcibly piled on all at once on the S.S. Invincible... that kind of pushed it over the top, for me. Now yes, I know, "You don't need to use them all. Having 44 characters allows for individual customization." True. But here's my problem with that motif. These aren't inanimate elements or pieces of armor. These are living, intelligent creatures. Chrono Trigger made me feel like each of the 7 characters mattered. They were all needed. They each had their own entire section within the game. They each played a pivotal role in the overarching story. They were people. In Cross... it felt to me like they were a shopping list of options. There was no way for me to have them with me nearly enough to become familiar with them, to care about them individually. To illustrate: If you go to a party with a friend, and there's 42 other people there, that you don't know - maybe you'll feel out of place, or overwhelmed. You could stay there for a long time and even go unnoticed. On the other hand, if you go to a friend's house, and there's 5 other people there, that you don't know - there's no way you would escape notice. You'd have no choice but to become part of the mix. It would only be natural. Other than Serge and Kid, I personally didn't care very much about any of the characters. I know there are other main ones, like Norris and Harle and Viper, etc. But with all of them, they'd have a small segment where they were in the party, and then a new character would be thrown in my face, so I felt compelled to swap them out. There just couldn't be a lot of face time for them all. (That said, I really did love the Serge & Kid storyline and moments.)
Story. Oh boy, story... Again, scratched my head. For me, this was the most ridiculously complex story I'd ever witnessed - completely the opposite of Trigger. And some of the explanations were so bizarre that... well, I didn't believe it. But there were also some pretty pivotal parts to the story that, though I could grasp them, just didn't calculate right. A lot of them centered around Belthasar. Here's how I personally felt regarding him: In Chrono Trigger, all 3 of the Gurus seemed, much like the 7 heroes, altruistic. They didn't support the Queen, and they all did what they could to stop Lavos. And they were very, very intelligent, very wise. Okay, so... Lavos has been taken down; Belthasar now lives in a peaceful future world in 2300 AD; he starts researching and experimenting with time; ..... See, that's where I start to not understand. If, as far as he knows, all is now right with Earth - Why would he keep messing with time? I realize he's a brilliant scientist with much time travel knowledge, and he no doubt WANTS to keep up time research. But the Belthasar I remember from CT was also responsible. (Yes, he was going insane in the future, so we can't learn much - but looking at his two fellow Gurus, they all seemed that way to me.) And with no more known threat... it just didn't seem like something he would do - but that's just how it seemed to me. The idea that he started up with time stuff again because he wanted to find/save Schala doesn't compute with me either. For the same reason - I realize how close he was to her, but it wouldn't be responsible to mess with this kind of stuff just to save one person. Still, if it's just a matter of being eccentric, like Doc Brown - okay, fair enough. I also realize that Gaspar could very well have informed him of this new Time Devourer threat from the End of Time. (If I'm getting some of these events wrong, I apologize. It's been a while, and it's hard to keep them sorted out in my head.) But then there's "Project Kid". There's so many things I find wrong with the kinds of events that Belthasar knew and planned, but I'll just pick the biggest one I can think of. He's doing time research, so let's say that yeah, he can see what people will do what, how this or that will be affected. My biggest holdup is the part where the Entity (Earth) pulls in Dinopolis from another dimension. First, is it just accepted that Belthasar knows of alternate dimensions now? Either way, how could he cause or know or predict an action that would be taken by the very planet itself, ahead of time? Does he control the planet now? These are just some of the examples that, even if not inconsistencies, seem not to make a great deal of sense or logic - again, just to me.
Buy hey, when it came to music - I think it's hard to find anyone that doesn't love the soundtrack, which I also bought of course.
But there are two more facets of Chrono Cross that upset me, perhaps even more than how the characters and story were handled. The first is this: How it felt to me, while playing this game, was that the world that I knew from Chrono Trigger was shattered, right down to the very characters. Crono (dead or whereabouts unknown), Marle (dead or whereabouts unknown), Lucca (likely dead or on the run), Robo (dead). Though we don't know much that's concrete, suffice it to say that Kato decided that all 4 of them would have a dark, gloomy outcome. Tell me, how often does that happen in a fictional story? In Empire Strikes Back, were we told "By the way, a few years after Episode IV, Luke, Han, and Leia all died or went missing"? In Back to the Future II, were we told "Well, Marty and Doc did a good job restoring their future. Oh, but sad to say, they died a little while later"? Is it fundamentally wrong to do something like that? Of course not. But by and large, fans of a series or game don't like it when the heroes of the story all get vanquished. So, since it almost never happens, it was just upsetting to me that the heroes of my favorite game, characters that I really liked, would get that treatment. But also the world itself. Guardia, the happy kingdom, that's lasted for 1000 years, that has prosperity ahead of it, with Crono and Marle as prince and princess... has now... been... BURNED TO THE GROUND just 5 years later. Heh heh... uh, what? That fun little twist... was it really essential to Cross's plot? Yes, it set up the storyline of Porre's rise to power. But I'm pretty sure they could have thought of many other explanations. And then, Chronopolis (and then Dinopolis) being ripped from the future(s) and shoved into the past, terraforming the world that I got to explore in Trigger.
What happened to the CT heroes and Guardia sets up my last qualm - one that, I would really think, even Cross lovers might agree with. A big reason this game, this sequel, upset me was that... to me, it FELT nothing like Trigger. I didn't need to have the very same characters, or same towns, or what have you. That's not what I'm talking about. It's this: The world and characters of CT felt jovial, bright, upbeat, optimistic. That of CC felt extremely dark, gloomy, defeatist in nature. And other stuff: Basically every character in CT had no accent or dialect (except Frog, for instance). In CC, pretty much each and every one of the 44 playable characters does. (I'm not insisting that's worse or anything, I'm just pointing out elements that were completely different between the games.) In CT, NPC's just talked... normal. Normal, every day, nothing special: "Hello! Going to the fair?" In CC, every person on the planet is a certified philosopher, musing on life or lamenting over past events or... whatever. And that contrast is easily noticed best when you compare the endings of the games. CT has the 7 heroes, saying goodbyes, joking, getting emotional, just... normal stuff. Now I encourage you to read the closing soliloquy by Schala/Kid, at the end of Chrono Cross. And then try to tell me these two games aren't bafflingly different.
That's the point of this whole post. Although Chrono Cross isn't suited for me, I don't doubt that it's still a very fine game. But as a sequel - when I play each game, almost everything feels... just, different. I didn't need a "Chrono Trigger 2", as they say. I'm fine with sequels making changes. But if you change virtually everything, if it's difficult to see the similarities, it kind of waters down the meaning of the word sequel.
Anyway, as someone whose favorite game is Trigger, those are the reasons why Cross really upset me, saddened me. I apologize for any unintended tone of annoyance in what I wrote. Like I said, this is only my perspective. If someone made a post and said everything the opposite of what I have, it would be just as valid, and I'd be fine with that. I'm not looking to argue. I guess I just wanted to write out all this for a while, on this truly impressive site that understands the series better than anyone else out there, even a 16 year veteran like me.
Again, sorry for any game facts I got wrong and, well, sorry for this wearily long post.
7
Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Is this an unwinnable situation in Chrono Cross?
« on: November 15, 2010, 04:56:52 pm »
Someone at the GameFAQs forum has presented a problem that he has encountered in trying to progress further in Chrono Cross.
Earlier in the game, he didn't go to Water Dragon Isle to get the Ice Breath to use in Mt. Pyre. He got through Mt. Pyre and progressed. He never visited Water Dragon Isle thereafter (at any point that the dragon would still give him the Ice Breath), until much later in the game when he had to visit in order to get the Blue Relic (under the story caption "To the Sea of Eden"). Well, at this point, the Blue Relic dialogue has been triggered, and the dragon no longer gives the Ice Breath. So he went to Mt. Pyre to get the Red Relic. But the new path that opened up inside is apparently slightly higher in elevation, and requires you to freeze the magma at least in this room to reach the new path. So he needs the Ice Breath to advance, but can no longer get it. (And the Ice Gun can't be attained until later.)
This is the situation as he described it. Is there a way to advance? He seems really disheartened, thinking that he needs to start the whole game over (I assume he has no other save states early enough to help). I've done countless searches, but can't seem to find anyone else that ran into this. It sounds like it could only happen if you never talk to the Water Dragon until this late in the game.
Does anyone know if there's a way around this? Or is this actually a rare unwinnable situation?
Earlier in the game, he didn't go to Water Dragon Isle to get the Ice Breath to use in Mt. Pyre. He got through Mt. Pyre and progressed. He never visited Water Dragon Isle thereafter (at any point that the dragon would still give him the Ice Breath), until much later in the game when he had to visit in order to get the Blue Relic (under the story caption "To the Sea of Eden"). Well, at this point, the Blue Relic dialogue has been triggered, and the dragon no longer gives the Ice Breath. So he went to Mt. Pyre to get the Red Relic. But the new path that opened up inside is apparently slightly higher in elevation, and requires you to freeze the magma at least in this room to reach the new path. So he needs the Ice Breath to advance, but can no longer get it. (And the Ice Gun can't be attained until later.)
This is the situation as he described it. Is there a way to advance? He seems really disheartened, thinking that he needs to start the whole game over (I assume he has no other save states early enough to help). I've done countless searches, but can't seem to find anyone else that ran into this. It sounds like it could only happen if you never talk to the Water Dragon until this late in the game.
Does anyone know if there's a way around this? Or is this actually a rare unwinnable situation?
8
Characters, Plot, and Themes / 2 Quick Theories to Unify Some Contradictions
« on: November 15, 2010, 05:17:56 am »
Hey, all. I apologize in advance if the following thoughts are blatantly wrong - I know the people here have spent way more time theorizing about this stuff than I have. Just wanted to share a few ideas. I read the articles on here regarding when Kid is sent into the world, and when the dimension split occurs.
First, regarding exactly when Schala sent Kid into the world - the "Kid (Arrival of)" article. I agree with this site's conclusion - that by process of elimination, she must have been sent to the year 1004 AD, since she's a baby (not an infant) when Lucca finds her and she's 16 years old in 1020. I have a quick theory as to the game's implication that Schala sent her in 1006, when she makes contact with the world due to Serge's crying. Technically, on the beach at the end of the game, you are told about two events that don't necessarily happen in the same year. One event is that Schala makes contact with this dimension, causing the raging magnetic storm. Another event is that Schala sends her clone into the dimension. It's understandable to just assume both took place in the same year, but the game doesn't explicitly say this here. Since Schala is outside the flow of time, can't she access any year in any order? My theory is that she first made contact with El Nido in 1006 AD, then decided to send Kid to help Serge. But she actually sent Kid, not to that year, but to a slightly earlier time - 1004 (maybe so that she would be closer in age to Serge). This theory seems to unify the game's text, since it technically doesn't explicitly say that she sent Kid to the same year that she first made contact with - she has access to any year from outside the flow of time, I think. What do you guys (the site creators) think? Might this rectify the seemingly contradictive in-game statements?
Second, regarding when exactly the dimension splits. My theory is that, again, the in-game text isn't necessarily contradictory. So the following suggestion is meant to give an explanation for the "Plot Inconsistency" part of the "Dimensional Split (Timing of)" article. This is what Belthasar says: "10 years ago.... This is when your future was split in twain." Later, this is what Lucca says: "Schala... heard your crying.... That is when... the world became divided into two." Based solely on the in-game text, I believe the actual dimension split took place in 1006 AD, while Serge's future was divided in 1010. I will explain how this could be.
The volatile nature of Schala making contact with the modern era divides time into two separate timelines. Chronopolis, which until now only had to monitor one dimension, recognizes that it now has to monitor two, and limits both to a small amount of variety so as to ensure the saved future's continuance in both. And part of FATE's plan was to use its vessel Lynx to kill Serge in 1010 to break the lock on the Flame - I guess in both dimensions now that they have split (assuming this theory isn't complete BS ). However, Kid is sent back in time to stop this from happening in one dimension (Belthasar's got it all figured out ). So in that dimension, Serge lives, and this somehow negates the saved future and transforms Chronopolis into the Dead Sea. (I know this contradicts the "Armageddon-Branch Theory" within the "Salt for the Dead Sea" article. I'm merely trying to harmonize the explicitly stated facts from the game itself. Besides, just how Serge's existence negates the saved future is not in itself a contraction, merely a mystery - we don't have a conclusive, in-game explanation. So I'm not attempting to explain that one...)
Okay, so Chronopolis - which has been able to control both worlds from 1006 to 1010 - now can only control one, as stated with these words: "Ever since the formation of the Dead Sea 10 years ago... FATE has been unable to intervene directly with World 01." My aforementioned explanation allows for this fact. And this would explain why other people's futures start to diverge so greatly from this point on - FATE is no longer able to keep them so limited in variation. Based on these things, I believe (for now...) that the Dead Sea was formed, not merely because one world split into two, but because a relatively big change was made in one of them - a human who originally is eliminated from both timelines is now reinserted into one. This could potentially change the world, so to speak...
So my two theories in a nutshell?
1) Schala made contact with Serge in 1006, but had the ability to send her clone to any year she wanted, and so chose the year 1004. Thus the game can say that Schala made contact with 1006, then sent Kid (who is 16 in the year 1020) into the world - not necessarily an in-game contradiction.
2) The original timeline was split into two due to Schala's unstable contact with it in 1006, but the two resulting futures remained largely unchanged thanks to FATE until a another new change was made (saving Serge in 1010) to one of the dimensions, this time by Belthasar and Kid. Thus the game can say that "the world became divided into two" in 1006, but "[Serge's] future was split in twain" in 1010.
If other in-game quotes disprove these possibilities, please be kind in shattering them. Like I said, I don't claim to know as much as this site's creators. Just offering some ideas that seem to unify the initially contradictive nature of the game's quotes. If I'm wrong, I have no problem with that. What are your thoughts, site theorists?
For the record, even I know that the most likely case is that they actually are contradictions, and the game's creators either didn't notice them or couldn't see how to rectify them - they bit off more than they could chew in making a story so needlessly complex. That's probably the real answer to these quandaries - but it's still fun to try and bring them into harmony with each other, when you love the series so much.
First, regarding exactly when Schala sent Kid into the world - the "Kid (Arrival of)" article. I agree with this site's conclusion - that by process of elimination, she must have been sent to the year 1004 AD, since she's a baby (not an infant) when Lucca finds her and she's 16 years old in 1020. I have a quick theory as to the game's implication that Schala sent her in 1006, when she makes contact with the world due to Serge's crying. Technically, on the beach at the end of the game, you are told about two events that don't necessarily happen in the same year. One event is that Schala makes contact with this dimension, causing the raging magnetic storm. Another event is that Schala sends her clone into the dimension. It's understandable to just assume both took place in the same year, but the game doesn't explicitly say this here. Since Schala is outside the flow of time, can't she access any year in any order? My theory is that she first made contact with El Nido in 1006 AD, then decided to send Kid to help Serge. But she actually sent Kid, not to that year, but to a slightly earlier time - 1004 (maybe so that she would be closer in age to Serge). This theory seems to unify the game's text, since it technically doesn't explicitly say that she sent Kid to the same year that she first made contact with - she has access to any year from outside the flow of time, I think. What do you guys (the site creators) think? Might this rectify the seemingly contradictive in-game statements?
Second, regarding when exactly the dimension splits. My theory is that, again, the in-game text isn't necessarily contradictory. So the following suggestion is meant to give an explanation for the "Plot Inconsistency" part of the "Dimensional Split (Timing of)" article. This is what Belthasar says: "10 years ago.... This is when your future was split in twain." Later, this is what Lucca says: "Schala... heard your crying.... That is when... the world became divided into two." Based solely on the in-game text, I believe the actual dimension split took place in 1006 AD, while Serge's future was divided in 1010. I will explain how this could be.
The volatile nature of Schala making contact with the modern era divides time into two separate timelines. Chronopolis, which until now only had to monitor one dimension, recognizes that it now has to monitor two, and limits both to a small amount of variety so as to ensure the saved future's continuance in both. And part of FATE's plan was to use its vessel Lynx to kill Serge in 1010 to break the lock on the Flame - I guess in both dimensions now that they have split (assuming this theory isn't complete BS
). However, Kid is sent back in time to stop this from happening in one dimension (Belthasar's got it all figured out ). So in that dimension, Serge lives, and this somehow negates the saved future and transforms Chronopolis into the Dead Sea. (I know this contradicts the "Armageddon-Branch Theory" within the "Salt for the Dead Sea" article. I'm merely trying to harmonize the explicitly stated facts from the game itself. Besides, just how Serge's existence negates the saved future is not in itself a contraction, merely a mystery - we don't have a conclusive, in-game explanation. So I'm not attempting to explain that one...)Okay, so Chronopolis - which has been able to control both worlds from 1006 to 1010 - now can only control one, as stated with these words: "Ever since the formation of the Dead Sea 10 years ago... FATE has been unable to intervene directly with World 01." My aforementioned explanation allows for this fact. And this would explain why other people's futures start to diverge so greatly from this point on - FATE is no longer able to keep them so limited in variation. Based on these things, I believe (for now...) that the Dead Sea was formed, not merely because one world split into two, but because a relatively big change was made in one of them - a human who originally is eliminated from both timelines is now reinserted into one. This could potentially change the world, so to speak...
So my two theories in a nutshell?
1) Schala made contact with Serge in 1006, but had the ability to send her clone to any year she wanted, and so chose the year 1004. Thus the game can say that Schala made contact with 1006, then sent Kid (who is 16 in the year 1020) into the world - not necessarily an in-game contradiction.
2) The original timeline was split into two due to Schala's unstable contact with it in 1006, but the two resulting futures remained largely unchanged thanks to FATE until a another new change was made (saving Serge in 1010) to one of the dimensions, this time by Belthasar and Kid. Thus the game can say that "the world became divided into two" in 1006, but "[Serge's] future was split in twain" in 1010.
If other in-game quotes disprove these possibilities, please be kind in shattering them.
Like I said, I don't claim to know as much as this site's creators. Just offering some ideas that seem to unify the initially contradictive nature of the game's quotes. If I'm wrong, I have no problem with that. What are your thoughts, site theorists?For the record, even I know that the most likely case is that they actually are contradictions, and the game's creators either didn't notice them or couldn't see how to rectify them - they bit off more than they could chew in making a story so needlessly complex. That's probably the real answer to these quandaries - but it's still fun to try and bring them into harmony with each other, when you love the series so much.
9
Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Need help understanding a key plot point from Chrono Cross (SPOILERS)
« on: October 21, 2010, 04:23:00 am »
I have been a Chrono series fan for as long as it has existed (got Chrono Trigger in '96 and Chrono Cross in 2000 and have played through both many times). I'm already pretty knowledgeable regarding the stories of both games, but I still struggle mightily in understanding some of the explanations given within the game of Chrono Cross. I'm NOT here to criticize the story. I just desperately want to understand it, so I am asking for help. I ask here because of all the time and effort that the creators of this web site have put into understanding the series. Until I can truly understand the game's story, I can't really enjoy it. I've already read many of the deep articles here, in an effort to grasp it all. However, those articles are filled with merely possible theories that, though admirable and potentially true, are still just theories - and not given by Masato Kato himself, the game's writer and thus owner of the story. I'm asking for answers from the GAME ITSELF that are either stated directly or are very clear deductions based on what is stated.
Okay, so with that in mind... although I have a handful of questions, I'll focus on one that is key to the core of this game's story. (SPOILERS THROUGHOUT REMAINDER OF POST)
At the end of the game, on Opassa Beach, you learn what I consider to be the biggest revelation - that Belthasar (Guru of Reason in CT, Prophet of Time in CC) orchestrated EVERY SINGLE EVENT IN THE GAME so as to lead Serge to this one point in time to save Schala and, in turn, the entire universe from being consumed by the Time Devourer. That is a ridiculously gigantic amount of power granted to a single human being by the game's writer, and the game wants me to accept it - without explaining HOW one person could possibly control all of that.
Here's the in-game quote, taken from the script on this site: "'Project Kid'... the time control project Belthasar planned out. The whole project existed to lead you to this one, special point in time! The founding of Chronopolis, the Time Crash, and the battle between FATE and the Dragon Gods... It was all coordinated."
In Chrono Trigger, the most Belthasar could do after being sent to the future was build a time machine - the Epoch. And that took him the rest of his life to build. And he merely left it, hoping someone with the power to fight Lavos (and open the sealed door) would find it. Seems pretty limited, like any human would be. So in Chrono Cross, with the only difference being that he is now sent to a saved future instead of a destroyed one, how is this same man able to know and do so much? All he says to rectify this, in game, is:
"Lavos created a dimensional vortex that threw me far into the future! There, I seized the opportunity to study the science of the future... I was then able to apply to that the knowledge I brought from my own era, including magic, which was long lost in the future. Anyway, this led me to make huge progress in the research of time. Well, that research led to the creation of Chronopolis and to the Time Crash..."
Just based on that, how could he even possibly KNOW that Schala and the Time Devourer were sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? By definition, isn't that place "beyond time" and therefore beyond the reach of his "research of time"? And then, he creates a time crash using a "Counter-Time Experiment" (not sure if the game actually explained what that is). But how did he KNOW that Lavos would then use the time crash to pull Chronopolis into the past, and then that that would be counter-balanced by Dinopolis being pulling in from another dimension (both facts that were revealed by Belthasar himself in Terra Tower), and then etc. etc. (Fate and dragons battle, they use Serge in their struggle, Serge gets the Chrono Cross so he can save Schala). How could he KNOW what different entities (Lavos, the planet, the Dragon God), all NOT within his control, would do? (I accept that he could control the Fate part of it, since he created that system.) He himself admits, in game, that he actually CAN'T know everything:
"I created a compact time machine that I dubbed the 'Neo Epoch.' I used it to time warp to this age to learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans, and to see how things were turning out."
"To learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans"? "To see how things were turning out"? If he didn't already know about what would happen with Chronopolis and Fate's plans, which he created, HOW COULD HE HAVE ORCHESTRATED EVERYTHING ELSE? He had already caused the time crash by then, or Chronopolis and Fate wouldn't have even EXISTED in that era so he could check them out.
So how was this one human able to create a multi-history-encompassing plan that included mulitple times, multiple dimensions, and that was dependent on knowing the exact actions of many different entities that were not under his control, when he himself admits in game that he didn't already know how things were turning out with the things HE created? This plan would require, not merely knowing the future, but knowing every effect that would result from every cause made by every creature along the way. And again, he could control causes and effects regarding some HUMANS, who were under the control of the Fate computer, but not Lavos, the planet, and the Dragon God - they had unlimited free choice, didn't they?
And I'm not scrutinizing some small part of the game. This is THE CORE of the story, so it should be explainable by the game itself. The core of Chrono Trigger's story was basically Lavos falling to the planet, slowly destroying it, and the planet (or 'entity' - in game) taking actions (creating time gates) to allow some humans to remove the threat. A fanciful tale, like any video game. But at least explainable - in this made-up world, the planet is an entity with at least some control. The core of Chrono Cross's story centers on one human being with seemingly far more powers than any other creature - more than the planet itself.
So please help me. I repeat, my objective is NOT to criticize the game's plot. Maybe I'm missing something big here. I desperately want to understand it, if it can be understood. Like I said, I just can't really enjoy something if I can't understand at least the main theme. If the writer left some minor things unexplained, I'd be fine with that. But this isn't minor at all - we're talking about the mechanic that drives the whole game. Please help me understand it, using what the game tells us. Thanks very, very much in advance.
Okay, so with that in mind... although I have a handful of questions, I'll focus on one that is key to the core of this game's story. (SPOILERS THROUGHOUT REMAINDER OF POST)
At the end of the game, on Opassa Beach, you learn what I consider to be the biggest revelation - that Belthasar (Guru of Reason in CT, Prophet of Time in CC) orchestrated EVERY SINGLE EVENT IN THE GAME so as to lead Serge to this one point in time to save Schala and, in turn, the entire universe from being consumed by the Time Devourer. That is a ridiculously gigantic amount of power granted to a single human being by the game's writer, and the game wants me to accept it - without explaining HOW one person could possibly control all of that.
Here's the in-game quote, taken from the script on this site: "'Project Kid'... the time control project Belthasar planned out. The whole project existed to lead you to this one, special point in time! The founding of Chronopolis, the Time Crash, and the battle between FATE and the Dragon Gods... It was all coordinated."
In Chrono Trigger, the most Belthasar could do after being sent to the future was build a time machine - the Epoch. And that took him the rest of his life to build. And he merely left it, hoping someone with the power to fight Lavos (and open the sealed door) would find it. Seems pretty limited, like any human would be. So in Chrono Cross, with the only difference being that he is now sent to a saved future instead of a destroyed one, how is this same man able to know and do so much? All he says to rectify this, in game, is:
"Lavos created a dimensional vortex that threw me far into the future! There, I seized the opportunity to study the science of the future... I was then able to apply to that the knowledge I brought from my own era, including magic, which was long lost in the future. Anyway, this led me to make huge progress in the research of time. Well, that research led to the creation of Chronopolis and to the Time Crash..."
Just based on that, how could he even possibly KNOW that Schala and the Time Devourer were sent to the Darkness Beyond Time? By definition, isn't that place "beyond time" and therefore beyond the reach of his "research of time"? And then, he creates a time crash using a "Counter-Time Experiment" (not sure if the game actually explained what that is). But how did he KNOW that Lavos would then use the time crash to pull Chronopolis into the past, and then that that would be counter-balanced by Dinopolis being pulling in from another dimension (both facts that were revealed by Belthasar himself in Terra Tower), and then etc. etc. (Fate and dragons battle, they use Serge in their struggle, Serge gets the Chrono Cross so he can save Schala). How could he KNOW what different entities (Lavos, the planet, the Dragon God), all NOT within his control, would do? (I accept that he could control the Fate part of it, since he created that system.) He himself admits, in game, that he actually CAN'T know everything:
"I created a compact time machine that I dubbed the 'Neo Epoch.' I used it to time warp to this age to learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans, and to see how things were turning out."
"To learn of Chronopolis and FATE's plans"? "To see how things were turning out"? If he didn't already know about what would happen with Chronopolis and Fate's plans, which he created, HOW COULD HE HAVE ORCHESTRATED EVERYTHING ELSE? He had already caused the time crash by then, or Chronopolis and Fate wouldn't have even EXISTED in that era so he could check them out.
So how was this one human able to create a multi-history-encompassing plan that included mulitple times, multiple dimensions, and that was dependent on knowing the exact actions of many different entities that were not under his control, when he himself admits in game that he didn't already know how things were turning out with the things HE created? This plan would require, not merely knowing the future, but knowing every effect that would result from every cause made by every creature along the way. And again, he could control causes and effects regarding some HUMANS, who were under the control of the Fate computer, but not Lavos, the planet, and the Dragon God - they had unlimited free choice, didn't they?
And I'm not scrutinizing some small part of the game. This is THE CORE of the story, so it should be explainable by the game itself. The core of Chrono Trigger's story was basically Lavos falling to the planet, slowly destroying it, and the planet (or 'entity' - in game) taking actions (creating time gates) to allow some humans to remove the threat. A fanciful tale, like any video game. But at least explainable - in this made-up world, the planet is an entity with at least some control. The core of Chrono Cross's story centers on one human being with seemingly far more powers than any other creature - more than the planet itself.
So please help me. I repeat, my objective is NOT to criticize the game's plot. Maybe I'm missing something big here. I desperately want to understand it, if it can be understood. Like I said, I just can't really enjoy something if I can't understand at least the main theme. If the writer left some minor things unexplained, I'd be fine with that. But this isn't minor at all - we're talking about the mechanic that drives the whole game. Please help me understand it, using what the game tells us. Thanks very, very much in advance.
10
Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / The Elusive Mirrors...
« on: June 26, 2009, 12:58:30 am »
I'm sure there've been other topics regarding this subject, but I wasn't up to scanning through every topic, so I apologize if this subject has been exhausted already.
Today, I succeeded in attaining all 5 mirrors and the Nu Arcana in the Arena of the Ages - all 6 within a 24-hour period. I wanted to share my method, for any completionists who've found much frustration in filling out their item list because of these blasted mirrors. (I actually got the following method from someone else online, and it has worked great for me.)
As you very well may know, the mirrors and Arcana can usually only be attained after battling the "unattainable" monster in each tier, and even then very rarely (for example, the Ouroboros in Tier 1). So what I did is this: I sent my smidge out for training over and over again (while playing through the game of course), without battling my monster at all - so that it wouldn't evolve while training - until it's HP had risen from 1500 to about 2500. At this point, it was strong enough to defeat the Ouroboros pretty much every time. Then, I stopped training altogether and started battling in Tier 1, over and over again, saving after each battle with smidges, until the Ouroboros showed up. I then fought it, beat it, and if I didn't get one of the 6 elusive items, I reset the game. This way, the Ouroboros would usually show up to battle again right away. I'd keep resetting until I got one of the 6 items. Then I'd battle smidges for 4 or 5 battles before fighting the Ouroboros again, and continue the process. The result? Well, although I had to endure getting one particular mirror to show up 8 TIMES before getting my last one, the end result was that I got all 6 items in one day, today.
It takes a lot of grinding, but it's not too bad in the long run - if you're a completionist like me, that is. And yes, you can indeed get all 6 items in Tier 1 (or any tier, for that matter). It just takes patience - make sure you have something to do while your monster is battling each battle (I spent the time playing Let's Catch and Wii Sports Baseball, both for Wii - games that required equally minimal attention...)
Anyway, hope this helps anyone out there who've still had trouble filling out their item lists - and again, I apologize if this has been covered to death already. I'm new here... And curse Squeenix for making these items so rare and so RANDOM! (That's just one of many reasons to curse them, of course.) It was just as bad as getting all the gold ship parts in Zelda: Phantom Hourglass. I'm sure some of you out there know what I'm talking about...
Today, I succeeded in attaining all 5 mirrors and the Nu Arcana in the Arena of the Ages - all 6 within a 24-hour period. I wanted to share my method, for any completionists who've found much frustration in filling out their item list because of these blasted mirrors. (I actually got the following method from someone else online, and it has worked great for me.)
As you very well may know, the mirrors and Arcana can usually only be attained after battling the "unattainable" monster in each tier, and even then very rarely (for example, the Ouroboros in Tier 1). So what I did is this: I sent my smidge out for training over and over again (while playing through the game of course), without battling my monster at all - so that it wouldn't evolve while training - until it's HP had risen from 1500 to about 2500. At this point, it was strong enough to defeat the Ouroboros pretty much every time. Then, I stopped training altogether and started battling in Tier 1, over and over again, saving after each battle with smidges, until the Ouroboros showed up. I then fought it, beat it, and if I didn't get one of the 6 elusive items, I reset the game. This way, the Ouroboros would usually show up to battle again right away. I'd keep resetting until I got one of the 6 items. Then I'd battle smidges for 4 or 5 battles before fighting the Ouroboros again, and continue the process. The result? Well, although I had to endure getting one particular mirror to show up 8 TIMES before getting my last one, the end result was that I got all 6 items in one day, today.
It takes a lot of grinding, but it's not too bad in the long run - if you're a completionist like me, that is. And yes, you can indeed get all 6 items in Tier 1 (or any tier, for that matter). It just takes patience - make sure you have something to do while your monster is battling each battle (I spent the time playing Let's Catch and Wii Sports Baseball, both for Wii - games that required equally minimal attention...)
Anyway, hope this helps anyone out there who've still had trouble filling out their item lists - and again, I apologize if this has been covered to death already. I'm new here... And curse Squeenix for making these items so rare and so RANDOM! (That's just one of many reasons to curse them, of course.) It was just as bad as getting all the gold ship parts in Zelda: Phantom Hourglass. I'm sure some of you out there know what I'm talking about...
11
Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / How Do Capsules Affect Stats in the Long Run?
« on: June 24, 2009, 10:46:15 pm »
Hi, I'm new to the site, but certainly not to the game. (Chrono Trigger being, of course, the greatest game of all-time. I still have my SNES copy that I bought in '96.)
I'm just now starting a 100% go-through in CT DS. Eventually, I want to level up all 7 characters to level 99 (**). But I also want to max out my stats along the way. So my question is, do the Strength and Magic Capsules ever affect anything other than the strength and magic stats themselves? In other words, do strength capsules affect the attack stat at all?
Second, does it matter whether I use capsules as I get them, or level up to 99 and THEN use the capsules? If the strength and magic stats are higher earlier on, will they increase by more when leveling up than they would have had I not used them?
And lastly, I've read that it's useless to use the Strength Capsules on Marle and Lucca, that their strength stat doesn't actually affect how much damage they do, but rather that the accuracy stat does for them. That doesn't make much sense to me, so does anybody know if it's true? I ask because all of the other 5 characters reach 99 in strength naturally, leaving Marle and Lucca way behind. So it seems to me that it would make sense to use the Strength Capsules on the two of them. (And again, my second question, would it help to use strength capsules on them earlier? Would their strength end up and higher than normal?) Any thoughts?
If anyone could help me with these 3 questions regarding capsules, I'd greatly appreciate it.
I'm just now starting a 100% go-through in CT DS. Eventually, I want to level up all 7 characters to level 99 (**). But I also want to max out my stats along the way. So my question is, do the Strength and Magic Capsules ever affect anything other than the strength and magic stats themselves? In other words, do strength capsules affect the attack stat at all?
Second, does it matter whether I use capsules as I get them, or level up to 99 and THEN use the capsules? If the strength and magic stats are higher earlier on, will they increase by more when leveling up than they would have had I not used them?
And lastly, I've read that it's useless to use the Strength Capsules on Marle and Lucca, that their strength stat doesn't actually affect how much damage they do, but rather that the accuracy stat does for them. That doesn't make much sense to me, so does anybody know if it's true? I ask because all of the other 5 characters reach 99 in strength naturally, leaving Marle and Lucca way behind. So it seems to me that it would make sense to use the Strength Capsules on the two of them. (And again, my second question, would it help to use strength capsules on them earlier? Would their strength end up and higher than normal?) Any thoughts?
If anyone could help me with these 3 questions regarding capsules, I'd greatly appreciate it.
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