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Topics - Eske

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Hey everyone!  It has been awhile.  I've thought about the Marle Paradox recently, so here is my latest effort to tackle it (after failing to do so with my Dreamline and Time X ideas.)  It isn't fully fleshed out - just something that hit me earlier today.  I'd like to submit it now for review, even though it is in its infancy and I haven't fully checked it for conflicts that arise later in the game if it is applied.  Basically, I took the Dreamline viewpoint that values perspective, removed the Entity from it and focused on the characters that we play as in-game.  The only issue I know of is that this idea (which hopefully isn't similar to other ideas presented recently, I haven't read up on everything - sorry if it is) is pretty much created with the sole intention of resolving the Marle Paradox, without influencing other events in the game - making it feel kind of forced.  Any feedback is appreciated - thanks!

Time Traveler Synchronization

For all time travelers passing through a gate, the receiving era is synced to their experience, creating a tangent worldline that only grants them Time Traveler Immunity and discards Time Traveler Immunity previously granted to all time travelers on the parent worldline.  If another time traveler enters the same era AFTER the arrival of the time traveler who created the tangent worldline, TTI is granted to them as well, from the perspective of the tangent catalyst.

In the game, we play from the perspective of Crono being the tangent catalyst because we first view 600AD (the receiving era) from his perspective and there are no breaks during his stay there.

First Time Travel Event:  Marle Perspective 1000AD – 600AD:

Marle takes the gate in Leene Square from 1000AD to 600AD.  There, she is mistaken for her kidnapped ancestor, Queen Leene, and is taken by the guards to the castle.  Soon after, Crono shows up and Marle reveals her true identity to him.  (Reasonable speculation follows.)  Lucca arrives in 600AD, runs up to the Queen's quarters, discovers that Crono is there with Marle, and confirms her suspicion, as stated in the game, that Marle is really Princess Nadia.  Lucca notes that someone was supposed to have saved the real Queen, but that may no longer happen because everyone assumes that Marle is the Queen.  Lucca suggests that she and Crono go and search for the real Queen, knowing that Marle would not be able to leave the castle.  The two discover the hairpin with Guardia’s royal crest in the cathedral, are ambushed by Mystics, meet with Frog, kill Yakra and save the real Queen and the Chancellor.  After being thanked back at the castle, Crono, Lucca and Marle say their goodbyes and return to 1000AD.

Second Time Travel Event:  Crono Perspective 1000AD – 600AD:

Crono follows Marle through the gate in Leene Square from 1000AD to 600AD.  When he arrives at the castle, Marle reveals that she is truly Princess Nadia.  After a brief discussion, she vanishes from existence due to a variant of the Grandfather Paradox that is satisfied by circumstances not made expressly clear in the game.  Unsure of what to do, he descends to the hallway adjacent to the throne room and runs into Lucca, who explains that Princess Nadia vanished because her ancestor, Queen Leene, was supposed to have been rescued but never was.  She suggests searching for the real Queen and the two head to the cathedral, where they find a hairpin with Guardia’s royal crest.  They are ambushed by Mystics and meet Frog, who aids them in killing Yakra and saving the real Queen and the Chancellor.  After arriving back at the castle, they discover that Marle has reappeared in the Queen's quarters due to the variant Grandfather Paradox's issues being resolved.  After being thanked for their daring rescue, Crono, Lucca and Marle say their goodbyes and return to 1000AD.

Third Time Travel Event:  Lucca Perspective 1000AD – 600AD:

Note: Unless one of Crono’s ancestors (perhaps a guard taken prisoner in the cathedral) is threatened, there is no reason to believe that Lucca’s account would differ significantly from Crono’s account above.


Marle Perspective:

Marle travels 600AD --> new worldline created/Marle granted TTI --> Crono travels 600AD (Marle worldline)/Crono granted TTI --> Lucca travels 600AD (Marle worldline)/Lucca granted TTI

Crono Perspective:

Crono travels 600AD --> new worldline created/Crono granted TTI --> Lucca travels 600AD (Crono worldline)/Lucca granted TTI

Lucca Perspective:

Lucca travels 600AD --> new worldline created/Lucca granted TTI

In-game Experience:

In the game, we view the event dubbed the “Marle Paradox" from Crono’s perspective.  If Time Traveler Synchronization (TTS) is observed, Crono, by default, is granted TTI and Lucca is granted TTI upon arrival.  Marle is unfortunately part of Crono’s synchronized arrival and her TTI granted by her travel event is discarded.  In other words, Marle is subject to causality from Crono’s perspective because she isn't granted immunity from her prior time travel event – she is both a part of 600AD and dependent upon events that occur there.  Though there is more than one way this story could have gone, all perspectives can be reasonably seen to lead to the same conclusion: the real Queen is saved and our three heroes from 1000AD return home.

Additional Note:

This is meant to explain why Marle is able to disappear at all - not necessarily what made her disappear and why it happened when it did.  Hopefully, with more discussion, we can work that part out and get this game that much closer to having a completely consistent approach to time travel.  Thanks for reading!

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Temporal Relativity
« on: May 23, 2009, 01:36:28 am »
This theory exists to address the Telepod Paradox (and the Ayla Paradox, in a sense). Enjoy.

The main idea is that changes to the timeline do not affect everything in the future all at once - the changes move at the same pace as the march of time.  So, when Crono changes something in 600AD, it will take 400 years for that change to affect 1000AD. But by then, all things in 1000AD will now exist in 1400AD, so they will never be able to experience the change.

Temporal Relativity.

"Changes to the timeline move at the same rate as time. Therefore, changes at Point A on a timeline will take N amount of time to reach Point B, but all bodies previously at Point B are now at Point B+N, and will remain unaffected indefinitely."

The Compendium has long held that any change to the timeline will result in an instantaneous change across all points on the timeline beyond the point of change.

This has been accepted because of the observation that making changes to the past and immediately time traveling allows the observer to see the effects of his change to the timeline.

There is a special example in Chrono Trigger that makes this conclusion impossible: The Telepod Paradox. If you are not familiar with this, it can be found in the Articles under "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel". The Ayla Paradox also suggests this view of time is flawed.

Just because Crono can make 5D movements and witness his changes to the past immediately after he time travels back to 1000AD does not mean that the changes manifest instantly. It just means that he is able to skip ahead to after the changes have manifest - much like the way he can skip thousands of years in seconds.

Temporal Relativity at work:

First, recall Time Error:  Crono spends one day in 600AD and returns to 1000AD.  There, he will see that one day has also passed. 
Using this, I will give you an example of Temporal Relativity.

Marle uses the Telepod, which interacts with her pendant and sends her to 600AD.  Crono and Lucca are just standing there, bewildered, wondering what to do.

For them, 5 minutes pass before Crono decides to follow Marle.  For Marle in 600AD, 5 minutes have also passed.  Crono and Lucca can choose to do nothing and get on with their lives, and the changes to the Guardia line (death of Leene) in the past will never ever catch up to them.

Why? Because...

Those 400 years don't just instantly occur. The changes cannot possibly move that fast because time itself only moves at a certain rate.  Furthermore, the changes are "in dimension" - they are not 5D events like time traveling.  That means that the rate at which time passes acts as a speed limit for changes to the timeline as well.

Here is a 3D space analogy:

If I were some cosmic godlike being and I reach in and pull the Sun away from the Earth, Earth would still continue to orbit as if the Sun were there for a few minutes because the effects of the change cannot move faster than the speed of light and light from the Sun does not reach us instantly.
I would think the same concept works for changes to the timeline.

Let's look at a hypothetical using Temporal Relativity.

Imagine if the we, the gamers, were looking at 1001AD "before" (Time Error-wise) the Entity opened the gates in 1000AD.  We would see Crono chatting with his mother or Lucca.  Now, it is still 1001AD but the Entity has opened the first gate in 1000AD, and Crono has entered it.   What happens to  1001AD??

The Compendium says it will be cast to the wind in the Darkness Beyond Time, replaced by a new 1001AD where Crono is absent.

But the Telepod example shows that is bogus.  1001AD Crono is just fine and dandy, living out his life.  The changes to the timeline that collapse the causality leading to this lifestyle will never ever ever catch up to him. He is moving away from the Point of Change at the same rate the wave of change is moving toward him.

Conclusion:  It's all relative.  To "Time Traveler Crono", he is married in 1001AD to Marle and is living the prince lifestyle, but to "1001AD Crono", he is enjoying long summer days with Lucca, just like he always does.

What about the Marle Paradox?  I'll get to that later with Part 2. But I only really addressed the Telepod Paradox here.  So,

I've only covered how non-time travelers experience changes to the timeline:  they don't.

For Time Travelers it is a completely different story,  more on that later...  8)

Time, Space, and Dimensions / The Dreamline (new direction?!)
« on: January 30, 2009, 02:48:06 am »
This theory is still not complete.  This is the second major edit - the purpose of reediting this time is to increase clarity while keeping explanations to the point, so forgive me if keypoints do not flow well into eachother.

The Dreamline

The Dreamline is the view of the adventure from the perspective of the Entity. It is the Entity's subjective interpretation of events while "revisiting" and "predicting" them in an effort to save itself from it's eventual death due to Lavos in 1999AD.

It works like a timeline, but in order of memories
recalled/predictions made, rather than chronological order:

Normal timeline :

65milBC   12000BC   600AD   1000AD   1999AD   2300AD          EoT

Dreamline (segment) :

1000AD 600AD 1000AD 2300AD EoT 1000AD EoT 600AD EoT ...

As such, causality is treated very differently, for example:

   "Person A" conceives "Child B" at Time X.
Time travellers from X+1000 disrupt this by convincing A,    currently at Time X-10, to come back with   them.  It turns out that one of the time travellers is a descendant of A. They hang around for a bit and then A returns to her own time at X-9.

Causality on a normal timeline would make this troublesome. If Time X never produces B, how can the time traveller from X+1000 still exist? 

TTI seems like it would save the time traveller from vanishing, but we see in the game that Marle vanishes when Queen Leene remains kidnapped, so obviously TTI cannot function this way. 

Normal Timeline:

 X-10 X-9            X             X+1000

Here we have the 3 important positions "A" holds.  A reaches P2 before A can experience Time X, and is therefore meeting with her descendant before it is even sure that he can ever be born. Marle is not spared, so why should he be spared?

The Dreamline avoids all of these nasty little complications, watch:


X-10  X+1000   X-9                   

Now take the above and "unfold" it over the normal, chronological timeline:

Normal Timeline (after dream) :

  P1   P3                               P2
 X-10  X-9            X           X+1000

This is (or was) the Ayla Paradox. Now let's look at the Marle Paradox, where again she has ancestor-descendant issues, yet we have the opposite result this time.

Marle Paradox:

Time X is the point of no return. The period in which it is no longer possible for Frog to save Leene on his own.  After Chrono witnesses Marle vanish, he and Lucca aid Frog, creating a new Time X and helping the Entity recall Marle once again.

Normal Timeline:

       600AD  Time X      601AD              1000AD


1000AD   600AD   Time X   1000AD

Normal Timeline (after dream) :

  P2   P3                                       P1       P4
 600AD TX                               1000AD    ""

Notice the key difference from the Ayla example, Time X is within the scope of the Dreamline.  So let's go over this:

Critical Moment Time X within Dreamline, Marle's ancestral chain is broken, so the Entity forgets her where she stands, to Crono's dismay.

Critical Moment Time X outside Dreamline, Marle's ancestral chain is preserved, so the Entity recalls her, despite the apparent break in physical causality.

I will edit this post again soon to re-include the "Crono, Clone and the Time Egg"  and "Doan Paradox" sections.

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Son of Sun challenge
« on: January 24, 2009, 06:19:08 pm »
K, so  New Game+,  trying to use Robo with the Apocalypse Arm + Dragon Tear to kill the 5 flames around it first.   Last night I got him down to one flame but won the fight before I could kill off the last flame.  Interestingly enough, after a roulette spin I hit the last flame and it generated the Miss: counterattack  (meaning for that round SoS was unable to be damaged). Then after another roulette spin I hit the flame and won the fight, damnit.

Has anyone ever been able to destroy all the flames before winning the fight?  I wonder what happens...

Time, Space, and Dimensions / TTI/TB/TE Reformation Idea Collection
« on: January 20, 2009, 09:11:07 pm »
Yo guys, I've started this thread in light of tweaked views on TTI that have been surfacing as of late.  Many old ideas have been challenged or "adjusted" in the recent month or so but many of those new ideas have been based upon TTI/TB in their current forms.

To actually attempt to change one or both of these theories is huge and will probably alter our understanding of time travel in the Chronoverse completely.

Obviously this topic isn't my property, but I respectfully ask that people try to only post very fleshed out ideas (it doesn't have to be 5 pages or anything ridiculous).   That way, if the articles do get changed, or if additions are made, the editors can easily look through this thread, rather than pages and pages of comments.     I'll start with a problem that arises due to TTI/TB that I discussed in another thread.

Timeline Entropy

Quote from: Eske
Crono dies

>>End of Time<<
All playable characters are here (this matters)
Lucca, Marle, Frog have Time Egg and Doppel
These three take Epoch to 2300AD at Time X

Epoch appears in air
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Doppel  climb Death Peak and enter gate to 12000BC
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono emerge from gate

Past has now been altered in 12000BC, timeline resets

Lucca, Marle, Frog, Doppel appear but are not visible to others who are frozen
Doppel replaces Crono
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono enter gate to 2300AD
Doppel is destroyed by Lavos

>>End of Time<<
All playable characters are here
Lucca, Marle, Ayla have Time Egg and Doppel
These three take Epoch to 2300AD at Time X
Frog is TB'ed at Time X  (everyone at EoT is like 'wtf!?')

{{In the Chronoverse, there is no predestiny -- different choices can always be made in the present when the past is altered in any way as seen in-game}}

Epoch appears in air -  Frog (protected by TTI) appears in the exact same spot he did before - Travel from the EoT will always take you to the same location on the planet.  Frog and Ayla literally appear inside eachother.Despite this, Lucca, Marle, Frog/Ayla combo (alive somehow)  climb Death Peak and enter the gate to 12000BC.
Lucca, Marle, Frog are TB'ed   --  Ayla is not.
Lucca, Marle, Frog, Ayla, Crono emerge from gate

The past has changed, timeline resets

The original Lucca, Marle, and Frog, Doppel appear - with Ayla now.
Whether or not Ayla's body is restored is up in the air.
Doppel replaces Crono
All 5 of them return to 2300AD - Lucca, Marle, Frog, Crono are TB'ed

^^ You have to feel bad for Ayla - not only was she fused with Frog for some time, but every time they enter a gate, her companions on the other side will be shocked and confused to see her because the party she is with keeps getting TB'ed.   And with her cavewoman knowledge, she could never figure it out much less explain it    =)

All I did was switch out a party member.  Not the most significant or complicated change - yet it produces terrible results.   

But it gets worse than freaky fusions:

You can repeat this process, eventually making all of the team vanish from the End of Time - fuse into eachother, become confused as to why their friends don't know how someone got there -  despite having had a conversation 5 seconds before entering a gate, etc.

This is a possibility predicted by the Compendium's theories.   Of course, with some luck, the same party members will always go to Death Peak and always perform every action at the exact same time, that way TTI/TB don't mess things up.

What if the party, in another runthrough, for whatever reason, needed an extra 2 seconds to set up the Doppel to replace Crono?

TB will destroy them before they have the chance - along with Crono.  The Doppel will just be lying on the ground so that when time unfreezes in 12000BC everyone will see Crono missing and a doll just laying on the ground a few feet away.

TTI/TB work in that they help preserve events that need to exist to avoid a paradox while preserving Conservation.

They do, but they create some other effect - like timeline entropy or something.
TTI and TB protect events that have occurred, but random variables allow for other events to arise that will also be protected by TTI.   This can continually reproduce itself until you have the ultimate result: 

Micro continuity sacrificed for Macro continuity.      To an outside observer (like the player), things won't even make sense anymore.  Events on a live timeline will be completely disconnected in favor of events that existed on dead timelines. 

It's not so bad though right?  Actually it is devastating -  With gates, things may not get too out of hand - but every instance of Epoch use has to be perfectly replicated  or else fusions will occur as I mentioned earlier.

But, I do believe this entropy can be applied to every time travel event.   So take the above and complicate it with small changes made for another, if not several time travel events that are not repeated.     I think things will get out of hand really quickly.


Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Dalton died!?!?!
« on: January 16, 2009, 02:45:44 pm »
Okay maybe this is something you guys already knew about or whatever but:

I play through CTDS the first time and King Dalton gets sucked into the Golem Boss black gate like always.  (i think... right?)

Now I'm playing through again and instead of that whole sequence he just dies in that red pixel fashion and the game goes on like normal.

Is that supposed to happen?

For info:  It's New Game + ,  killing blow was a counter by ayla,  and I did Marle's dimensional distortion before going to the Blackbird.  (I did all 3 distortions prior to NG+ as well).

It would be interesting to see if he shows up in Crono's vortex....

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Observations on some thematic elements
« on: December 29, 2008, 03:48:08 pm »
I noticed just yesterday that practically all of the events in Chrono Trigger are linked to either:

 restoration/improvement/continuity/bringing to life   (overall Entity theme)
 destruction/impairment/disruption/taking of life        (overall Lavos theme)

Examples of the former:

Bringing Marle back to life/Saving the Queen
Saving Crono from execution
Saving Fritz from execution
Vowing to save the future
Fixing Robo
Bringing food to the knights at Zenan Bridge
Repairing the Masamune
Saving Melchior at Mt. Woe
Crono's sacrifice
Schala's sacrifice
Choosing not to fight Magus
Epoch gets wings
Black Omen rising (Ocean Palace resurrection)
Resurrecting Crono
Restoring Fiona's Forest (very significant)*
Saving Lara from Taban's machine
Saving humans from Geno Dome execution plant
Restoring Atropos's old memories
Rebuilding the Northern Ruins/Hero's Grave
Bringing Cyrus's spirit to rest
Enabling the Masamune to reach its full potential
Turning the greedy mayor into a generous mayor
Restoring the Sun Stone's power
Creating a better Human-Mystic relationship
Exonerating King Guardia from false charges
Mammon Machine intact despite looking destroyed 5 seconds earlier
Restoring Queen Zeal's humanity
Saving the Planet from Lavos
Future Lavos binds with Schala to create Dream Devourer

Of these, Fiona's forest is the most interesting to me because it is the Lavos vs Entity crisis on a smaller scale: The forest represents the planet and the Retinite represents Lavos.  The CT team defeats the Retinite and enjoys a nights sleep in the restored forest.  This is when the Entity seems to really connect with the group and makes its presence known when it creates a gate so that Lucca can save her mother.

Examples of the Latter:

Marle vanishes/Queen is not saved
Destruction of Zenan Bridge
Not Guilty verdict is reversed to Guilty with execution (ouch!)
Future is bleak
Food storage refrigeration failed, husband is dead.
Lavos destroys the world in 1999
Magus kills Cyrus
Masamune is broken
Glenn turned into Frog
Tata steals Hero's Medal and lies to the kingdom
Reptites attempt to exterminate "the apes"
Kino steals the Gate Key
Lavos sends the party and Magus to different time periods
Reptites destroy Laruba Village
Lavos destroys Tyranno Lair
Poor condition of Earthbound Ones
Manipulation of Zeal
Lavos kills Crono
Lavos sends the Gurus to different times
Lavos destroys the Ocean Palace
Destruction of Zeal
Imprisonment inside the Blackbird
Cyrus's spirit becomes restless
Yakra XIII's attempt to overthrow Guardia
Mother Brain's human extermination plan
Continuing deforestation around Fiona's Villa
Hostile relationship between Humans and Mystics

The game often mentions the word "dream" - but what does dreaming mean in Chrono Trigger?   Here are some clues:

Green Dream - accessory that auto-resurrects once per battle
Black Dream (Omen) - Ocean Palace risen and restored
Dreamreaver - attack move by Lavos
Dream Devourer - Lavos from bleak future + Schala

It seems as though "dream" is related to "life" or "existence" in Chrono Trigger.   We see this further in Zeal where dreams poured into objects made of Dreamstone actually bring life to "dream-beings" [Masa, Mune, Doreen].  Also the triple tech with Frog, Robo and Marle called "Grand Dream" shows the Masamune lighting up and three "Masamune boss-like" dream beings attack the enemies.

So, resurrection or the idea of the "second chance" seems to be one of the primary themes in the game.  Marle, Crono, the Planet and even Lavos (as DD/TD) are all resurrected and we see this represented sometimes with regrets.  For example: Lucca feels guilty about her mother's accident - she is given a second chance to do what she could not do as a child and save her mother.   Glenn is not as fortunate, but Cyrus's spirit releases his guilt in the Northern Ruins anyway. 

Just a few thoughts,  has anyone noticed other thematic elements in the games?

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Marle Paradox: Let's change our point of view
« on: December 24, 2008, 03:01:54 am »
The Compendium traditionally holds that the Marle Paradox (her apparently being subject to the grandfather paradox in 600AD) is an exception to the rule or some strange anomaly, or a move made by the Entity.

This seems to come from the view that the Marle Paradox = the Grandfather Paradox.  Her ancestor disappears, so she also vanishes.  Lucca even explains this in the game with a little mini cutscene.

To ignore a scene from the game that is further explained by another scene in the game or dismiss it as an oversight when developing theories is just wrong in my opinion.

I understand why the Compendium seems to feel this way:

1) All other instances that would exhibit the effects of the Grandfather Paradox  do not.
2) Time Travellers are freed from causality

^^ I agree with both statements, but let's take a look at the situation at hand from the perspective of another popular theory here:  Time Bastard

Person A in Time X goes to Time X-10
When their double, Person A', approaches Time X, he vanishes, but why?

Its not that doubles can't exist so much as extra information cannot exist. 
Time Bastard just happens to discard extra information that is duplicate to the Time Traveller.

I propose that, instead of being an exception to the rule, The Marle Paradox is simply the demonstration of a different rule.

It isn't an example of the Grandfather Paradox, its an example of Conservation.

Like the doubles, Marle and her ancestors after Leene are closest to the entity that was changed.
Leene was that entity.   In the new 1000AD, the matter that would have been a part of Marle still exists, but Marle does not.  So the version of her in 600AD is extra information.  There is nothing to "TB" as it were, so something has to go to preserve balance.

The question is:  why did she disappear when she did?

I don't know.  My first assumption for this thread is that there is some point in time, a reference point the system can use.
For Time Bastard this reference point is easy.  If A travels at Time X, the reference point is Time X - simple.
But for examples of Conservation that are indirectly related to time travel the reference point must be different.
The simple solution would be Queen Leene's death. But we see in the game that it's not the case.

So, my two cents will be:

Queen Leene is saved at Time X.
Marle travels at Time X+400 to Time X-N
At Time X the Queen is no longer saved.
When Marle reaches Time X, she will be eliminated.

Not really claiming anything, just starting the idea train...
Looking for ideas, who has 'em?

Time, Space, and Dimensions / Black Omen not from 12,000BC?!
« on: December 22, 2008, 01:19:42 pm »
When replying in another thread I was reinformed that the Compendium holds that Lavos was killed in 12,000BC because going through the Black Omen was the most "canon" path. 

But, how do we even know the Omen is from 12,000BC initially?  If you watch the event in the game, there is no water splashing or any kind of animation like that.  There is lightning and we see the Omen slowly being phased in. 

Looking at youtube, ,   we see that if you have Lucca in your party, she says:

Quote from: Lucca
We're getting some interference from an enormous gate!
It can't be!   Lavos!!??

So, the Omen was either brought from the under the sea via some giant spatial portal (like Dalton) or it came from a different time period.   I can argue for both:

Spatial portal:

1) It never appears before 12,000BC but appears onwards.
2) Zeal displays that it has this technology.

Time gate:

1) It would probably have been destroyed in 1999AD (if it had risen in 12000BC), so why is it there in 2300AD?
We see that Lavos can easily destroy it - nor does he have any use for it. No reason to spare it.

2) The creatures inside, no matter what time period you enter it from, are mostly mutant like creatures like the ones we see from the future. 

3)  In 2300AD it hovers right over Death Peak - where Lavos arose to begin with.  Since continental drift in CT is ridiculously fast and weird, its strange that in 2300AD the Omen was on the right spot to absorb his power, but it would not have been in 1999AD or previous eras.

Yea, a little biased, but that's life  :D

Any thoughts?

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