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Messages - Chrono45

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Haha, I think it is explicitly presumptuous, but I am going to look into that one more. There may possibly be an npc somewhere that says Magus started the war or something. I am not really sure of Magus' age either but I was under the assumption he was like 30-40. Taking that low end of 30 and assuming he was around 10 years old when he got warped that would mean the war (if it had started before he got there) would have had to be going on for about 20 years. Their arn't many wars that have lasted longer than 20 years, especially with active conflict for a constant 20 years. So again, I think it is more than likely that he either started or "refueled" the war.  Obviously everything in this statement is an assumption his age the length of the war all that jazz... but what else do we have to go on but logical conclusion.

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I didn't say he HAD to. In fact, if you would go back and read,  I said it was more than likely that he did not get warped to the Chrono timeline, between 65 million and 2300. But that he got warped to some era before, after, or something else. I would say that the mystics and the humans were already in tension before Magus' arrival. However, they were not organized and therefore were of little threat. Magus was able to rally them together and centralize there operations out of his keep. I believe this is the truth because during the cut scene of Janus being warped to 600 a.d. he was met by Ozzie and some other imps randomly in the forest. Why was Ozzie in the forest? probably because that was how they lived up until magus organized them.

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Magic, Elements, and Technology / Re: Magus' red staff
« on: April 20, 2012, 09:12:59 pm »
Well... Lavos' "head" is definitely not a head as would be defined in the animal sense. Theirs a whole lot of biology that I don't really want to get into, but the basic reason why animals die when you remove their head is because their root nervous system (brain) is disconnected from its Vascular system (heart and stuff). The brain is a necessity for large mobile creatures in earths atmosphere. This arrangement is called a cephalacaudal design and is highly efficient and largly advantageous for our current biosphere. However, if you may notice lavos' "head" is really just a mouth (one would actually probably think this is closer to the beak of the squid family). The whole thing opens up exposing a digestive track of sorts, really this depends on if it even eats things it may very be well used for something else. But it being hollow is a good indication that a brain does not reside within the cavity (or anything for that matter).  It is more than likely that all of Lavos organs reside within his shell, this is confirmed by going in his shell and being only able to kill him by destroying the right bit. Furthermore from Magus' perspective whence Lavos yells at him and Magus is able to get a good view that this "mouth" is much like a digestive cavity he would probably thinking cutting it off would do as much as cutting his own mouth off.

Second, It appeared as though magus had reason to his attack, as if he had planned it out before. And never having seen Lavos prior would indicate that he wouldn't have been able to prepare the head-mouth separation technique. But I agree with Thought, upon further review it is more than likely that Magus did attack Lavos with a scythe. However, I dont think slicing technique was really magus' plan to defeating a creature as large as Lavos.

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Alright, I don't think anyone really misinterpreted anything. we were just arguing the credibility of what Heckran said.
I'm going to give a little recap of the discussion and the evidence that has been provided
The question is what was magus' fate in the unaffected timeline? So far the theorys are...

1. He summons Lavos and lavos Kills him in some fashion. The idea here is that without being interrupted by Crono&co he was able to successful summon Lavos whom then proceeded to kill him. The evidence for this is basically that Guardia stands in all its glory in 1000 a.d. If magus would have continued this war, he most likely would have easily over-run Guardia at some point. This is because Cyrus, their best knight, had already been defeated, along with their second best, Glenn. The masamune was destroyed and from the general setting in Guardia the war looked very grim while the setting down in "mysticville" TM was looking quite promising (in its own undead way). However, you don't experience any of the mystics south of Zenan bridge until you have potentially changed the timeline due to such a thing as chaos theory which will be discussed later. During your second trip their, Zenan bridge is rebuilt and the mystics are then breaking through, possibly lending to the evidence that without Crono&co they would have stormed Guardia pretty quickly after that. However, one thing to consider, every time we see Lavos pop up from his underearth home he generally reeks quite a bit of havoc (blowing up worlds and what not). So if he were to be summoned, one might think the world would have known about it.

2. Magus Summons Lavos, but like with Crono&co is warped to a different time period. This theory can be viewed in two different ways one he summons Lavos and for what ever reason it is Lavos warps him, or that his summon failed in some way and that results in his warp. The same thing that happened in the Crono line is what is being theorized here though. This follows basically the same evidence as the previous theory except for the fact that he does not die. One might think that if Magus was warped to another time period that he would have had an effect on the time period as well (evidence of this was his ability to throw all of 600 ad into chaos in a few years probably 10-20). Since we never notice him, or anything that may have been a result of him in another period, we could probably assume he wasn't warped within the Chrono timeline. If he was though, it would have probably been somewhere in between 65 million bc and 12,000 bc statistically speaking (its a much larger time frame) and logically speaking since the world would have had millions of years to hide the effects of any mischief caused by magus. Although, there is the second magus we encounter in the ds version, could this be that magus? Please keep the time travelers immunity theory in mind.

3. Magus doesn't summon Lavos and either dies of old age (very ultra unlikely) or is sacked by Guardia before he is able to summon Lavos. The idea here is that without the disturbances of Crono&co in the timeline Magus would have laid back and mayhaps prepared more for his fight with Lavos (although why if he thought he could kill Lavos in the Crono timeline but be worried about Crono&co is beyond me). However, many people believe this to be unlikely since Magus has devoted his life to defeating Lavos. Also, it might be added that the disturbances to the original timeline up to Zenan Bridge were quite minor, so the effects that those had on the original were probably minor as well. How would have Guardia even taken his keep, this to me is a very unlikely situation because of  the state Guardia is in until Crono comes to the rescue.

So those are basically the theory's, there is little evidence from npc's that talk about the summoning. Most say something to the effect of "If only magus would have summoned the Lavos back in 600ad etc..." The two instances that I found of this in the ds version are from Heckran and from the mystics dancing around the Magus statue in medina square. Other than that I was not able to find any other mentions (and I was pretty thorough about it too). That being said I will still have to go through the SNES version and see what if anything was different.

Also two things to keep in mind is the Time Travelers immunity theory, I believe the compendium has a page on it so I won't go into it, but it relates to magus being warped in the second theory. Second, anything that happened in 600 a.d. after your first visit their may have been compromised. so any npc's from that point on may have had reacted differently had you never went to 600ad. This is partly taken from the idea of chaos theory which a quick google search will inform you about.

If I missed anything or made any mistakes make sure you correct me! and I know you will  :wink:

edit: Ha, already saw I forgot something. It was also hypothesized that if magus was warped from his summoning of Lavos that his chamber would have been more or less intact. This would have given the illusion that Magus just "took off" and didn't summon Lavos. So the mystics coming upon this would have marked it down in history as him not summoning Lavos.

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I am very certain that if you do not tell the woman to plant the seed (tell her to burn it or strait up dont talk to her) that the Fiona sidequest will not be accessible. However, you can always go back to the woman (she appears in the survivors area after zeal falls) and tell her to plant the seed. Just like every other conversation prompt in Chrono Trigger only one choice has an effect. That being said, it seems to me that since you have to talk to the woman in order to do the forest side quest, it is a pretty clear indication that that is the straw that broke the camels back.

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Chaos theory wouldn't necessarily explain why one piece of evidence is useless. I actually took inspiration for my example from Chrono Trigger. If you may remember in 12,000 bc a woman is making a decision on whether or not to destroy a plant, well telling her to save the plant completely changes an entire ecosystem on like half of a continent. This seems pretty significant to me. So, you know, it's possible, but I still agree with you to some extent Mr. Bekkler, the incidents on the first trip to 600 ad had almost no impact on the timeline due to almost nothing being changed. Frog (or someone else) rescued the queen and seemingly killed Yakra in that timeline probably close to the same time crono&co did it.

Their is also the counter theory to the Chaos Theory as well, although I don't know if this one has an exact name. There as so many different variables effecting a timeline at once that a change in one would equal out to infinitesimal effects. One may be able to go around changing thousands of variables within a system, but since that system is near infinitely big their is rather little consequence. I believe Zeality may have offered this theory to explain why removing Ayla from the timeline did not effect the present Gaurdia family line.

I am merely throwing options out to make sure we cover all possible bases on the topic.

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I certainly wouldn't say in "no way" could it have changed, but I agree that it is unlikely that the events of the first trip to 600ad would have influenced Heckrans thoughts at the moment. However, I believe what this gentlemen is trying to say, is that certain events may cause a type of chain reaction that can lead to larger changes. Many people know this idea as the chaos theory. If you are unfamiliar with it a quick google will inform you of its basic functions. This theory implies an almost untraceable chain of events that can lead from a very small change to enormous consequences. This is actually used in many plots of time travel, a traveler will travel back in time and do something very insignificant like cut a tree down. Then upon return to his or her time period they find a forest to be missing. Their is no way of knowing whether or not Crono could have influenced Heckran's life or not. But I tell you this their are no absolutes in time travel.

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Welcome / Birthday / Seeya! Forum / Re: I'm in my late twenties!
« on: April 07, 2012, 04:14:01 am »
Happy Birthday!

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I wouldn't say there isn't any evidence, there may be some indirect evidence that you may be able to get from towns folk before you travel back in time for the first time. I plan on playing through here again (on the ds and snes in case their are some differences) in response to all of these questions that have popped up over magus. I plan on marking down any comments from villagers who maybe referring to magus and his schemes.

I completely forgot heckran said that! Um... But maybe he did fail. Is what happened with crono&co failing, that being getting warped to random eras? If so maybe he was trying to summon lavos in some fashion but failed in some manner and just got warped. I mean, he disappears from something.

anyways, I wouldn't really call frog magus' arch enemy. I think magus thinks frog more of a joke, which is probably the reason he turned him into a frog. I'm pretty sure magus thought he was pretty uncontested after easily dispatching Cyrus, Guardia's best knight. And I can't really see Guardia taking him down either without Crono they were already losing the zenan bridge, like i said before magus killed guardia's best knight. From the looks of it Magus was winning and going to win the war till Crono stomped everyone into the ground.

I wont say that Crono's appearance didn't alter magus' plan, but I think that it had very little effect on it if any. Magus' whole theme was vengeance, I don't think he would hold off on his core characteristic because he felt more safe or something to that effect.

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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 07:18:47 pm »
Yeah your absolutely right, I tried out a few swings with a few different scythes on magus and it infact looks like he's swinging a staff, if you pay attention. However, the attack he did on Lavos was personalized by square because magus' normal attack looks nothing like what he did to Lavos. Also, I find it kind of hard to believe that a mistake would be made on arguable the most important cut scene of the game. So, I'm still kind of up in the air on the situation and thinking that maybe something got lost (or added) in the translation. But great catch anyways, the fact that his normal scythe isn't largely different from the pole he's swinging at lavos makes the scene at least less curious.

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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 02:11:12 pm »
I think I would have to agree with Mr. bekkler on this. For some reason the game never mentions Magus' disappointment or specific weapon again, which i feel is rather suspisious. But perhaps I will read through the literal translation of the Japanese version one day and see if i can't figure out if something was possible mistranslated.

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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 02:07:49 pm »
Hmmm. Maybe it's the same weapon! which was actually my first thought, but sadly i'm very certain that doesn't make sense. But anyways the dreamreaper was only added to the ds version, and prior to that all of magus' weapons have visible blades unlike the weapon he attacks lavos with. so your argument doesn't really translate that well i feel, because that would mean they should have used his standard weapon (scythe looking deal) instead of the staff looking deal.

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What happened to magus in the original timeline? In a previous topic what magus' fate ending up being before Crono&co came into the picture keeps coming up so I thought I would make it, it's own topic. So far it's either thought that magus was successful in summoning lavos and was either destroyed by Lavos or was teleported much like Crono&co after the battle with magus. It could also be that Frog sought Magus out and killed him. If you will remember one of the endings had frog killing Magus on his own, but this was already with a tampered timeline.

So, I personally believe that instead of dying to lavos, which seems to be the most common belief, is that magus was actually teleported to a different timeline possibly back to 12,000 bc. I figure why would Lavos kill him this time instead of teleporting him like the other time. But one also might think magus was unable to completely summon him because of the interference so some sort of temporal anomaly resulted. Since Crono&co did not run in a make a muk of things, he may have been able to summon him properly and was then promptly eaten. Any other theory's and especially evidence to what happened to Magus would be a great help!

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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 11:19:06 am »
I found this clip to watch that shows the red staff ***SPOILLERS DON"T WATCH THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T BEATEN CHRONO TRIGGER*** but I don't know why you would be on this forum if you haven't. Anyways note the red staff around 6:30-6:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeKkuyjILls&feature=fvwrel The guy even mentions the problem of never addressing why magus thought the staff would have an effect also that it may be dreamstone.

I wouldn't say its obvious... I can't really remember my early game npc dialog regarding the mayhaps of magus though. But I believe that some people comment on him just disappearing, but I could be making that up. One would think that if Frog killed magus people would know about it and not wonder about his death. Also, summoning lavos isn't really a subtle feat normally his m-o is bursting through the earths crust and lighting everything on fire. Their isn't really any evidence of lavos, a giant creature, coming out of the ground and bringing hells lava with him. If anyone has some direct quotes from towns people or from the mystics in their village that suggest that lavos just disappeared without a trace that would be great.


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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Magus' apparent knowledge of lavos
« on: April 05, 2012, 04:59:16 am »
Do you mean how did crono and co get melchoir to fix the masamune in 1000ad? Or how did frog fix the masamune in the alternate timeline? The first one is obviously they went back in time to 65 million bc and grabbed the dreamstone from ayla. As far as frog getting it in the alternate timeline (if he even did) that's probably a conversation for a new topic entirely. But that ending may happen after you restore the masamune but before you beat magus, so the answer would be crono and co again. Which if thats true then that timeline would have been changed from the original before crono even met frog. If thats the case then whether frog killed him or he summoned lavos and got disappeared in some fashion by lavos who knows.

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