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Articles / Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« on: February 10, 2011, 03:37:04 pm »
Wow.... notifications of threads from the past.... 
Well I don't see how the alternate translation breaks down. By the translation, the instant that Robo jumped through time with the other three, Conservation of Time happened. 4 is the key number here. Once you have a fourth person, then the time footprint of each matters. If the fourth party member of Chrono Trigger was Pierre, for example, since he was from the same period as Chrono, Marle, and Lucca, there would have been no problem. It seems Square was very careful to make sure that they never had 4 people from the same time period on the team.
Of course this means that if someone traveled to Chronopolis and time traveled back with the city, then there is a possibility that everyone would have ended up in the End of Time. But since there is no evidence of such an occurrence, then we can ignore that case.
Well I don't see how the alternate translation breaks down. By the translation, the instant that Robo jumped through time with the other three, Conservation of Time happened. 4 is the key number here. Once you have a fourth person, then the time footprint of each matters. If the fourth party member of Chrono Trigger was Pierre, for example, since he was from the same period as Chrono, Marle, and Lucca, there would have been no problem. It seems Square was very careful to make sure that they never had 4 people from the same time period on the team.
Of course this means that if someone traveled to Chronopolis and time traveled back with the city, then there is a possibility that everyone would have ended up in the End of Time. But since there is no evidence of such an occurrence, then we can ignore that case.
2
Articles / Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« on: December 27, 2009, 01:13:06 am »
True. If they were holograms, they couldn't be looking at the differences between the two dimension in real time, I suppose.
One other question. Currently, the theory of the Sea of Eden being a gate forward in time instead of Chronopolis being brought back in time is based heavily on the Conservation of Time theory saying that no more than 3 people can pass through a gate. However, based on the wording in the Retranslation article:
OLD MAN: When 4 or more beings step
into a time warp, the Conservation
of Time theorem states that they
will turn up...
...at the space-time coordinates of
least resistance.
Here.
Disturbances in the space-time
continuum have increased recently.
Far too many folks are just popping
in here...
I fear something is having a
powerful effect on the very fabric
of time...
VERSUS
Old Man: When you enter a space-time distortion
with four or more people who live in different
times, the dimensional field distorts......
However, there are many space-time
distortions in this place.
There are even those who, like you, appear
here aimlessly......
Perhaps something is exerting an effect on all
of time......
As such, all the members of Chronopolis would have lived in the same time, and thus COULD have been brought back in time together (the same applies to Dinopolis, though that requires a Dimension shift as well). Does this mean that this should be removed as an inconsistancy/abnormality?
One other question. Currently, the theory of the Sea of Eden being a gate forward in time instead of Chronopolis being brought back in time is based heavily on the Conservation of Time theory saying that no more than 3 people can pass through a gate. However, based on the wording in the Retranslation article:
OLD MAN: When 4 or more beings step
into a time warp, the Conservation
of Time theorem states that they
will turn up...
...at the space-time coordinates of
least resistance.
Here.
Disturbances in the space-time
continuum have increased recently.
Far too many folks are just popping
in here...
I fear something is having a
powerful effect on the very fabric
of time...
VERSUS
Old Man: When you enter a space-time distortion
with four or more people who live in different
times, the dimensional field distorts......
However, there are many space-time
distortions in this place.
There are even those who, like you, appear
here aimlessly......
Perhaps something is exerting an effect on all
of time......
As such, all the members of Chronopolis would have lived in the same time, and thus COULD have been brought back in time together (the same applies to Dinopolis, though that requires a Dimension shift as well). Does this mean that this should be removed as an inconsistancy/abnormality?
3
Articles / Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« on: December 26, 2009, 04:41:28 pm »
Well, considering that we do not see anyone during the flashback of 14 years ago, it seems awfully possible that the people are all holograms and they were disabled when Wazuki, Serge, and Miguel showed up. If that were the case, the holograms could be letting Serge + Party see what happened 13020 years ago, I suppose. But again, I just don't know...
4
Articles / Re: Real World Influences
« on: December 25, 2009, 03:36:23 pm »
Haven't had a chance to read this entire article yet, but I'm looking forward to it. One thing I noticed while skimming, though was that in the Religion of the Ages section, there is no mention of Miquel's comment in the Dead Sea of Gods and Goddesses:
"Either way, it is all part of the grand game of the gods... and 'goddesses!'"
In addition, numerous characters refer to the "Goddess of Fate", including Lynx, Steena, the Dragons and the Dwarves.
And of course, there are the "Dragon Gods" themselves, considered my most of El Nido to be elemental deities of a sort.
But, yeah, can't wait to read the entire article in depth (when it isn't 4:30am).
"Either way, it is all part of the grand game of the gods... and 'goddesses!'"
In addition, numerous characters refer to the "Goddess of Fate", including Lynx, Steena, the Dragons and the Dwarves.
And of course, there are the "Dragon Gods" themselves, considered my most of El Nido to be elemental deities of a sort.
But, yeah, can't wait to read the entire article in depth (when it isn't 4:30am).
5
Articles / Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« on: December 25, 2009, 03:16:34 pm »
Thank you for the words of welcome.
To be honest, when I was writing up the Schrodinger's Cat theories, I did a bit of research to try and find wording that would be useful in describing it for the uninitiated (which is probably a very minimal population of this board if everyone is discussing time travel and quantum physics) and found a diagram on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MWI_Schrodingers_cat.png) that, in my opinion, looked like the Home World and Alternate World split in a nutshell. Suddenly all I could wonder was if this was the reason Square decided to put SO MANY CATS into the game. Made me chuckle a bit ('cause I like puns, a lot). I'm not sure I'll be able to look at Lynx the same way ever again...
To be honest, when I was writing up the Schrodinger's Cat theories, I did a bit of research to try and find wording that would be useful in describing it for the uninitiated (which is probably a very minimal population of this board if everyone is discussing time travel and quantum physics) and found a diagram on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MWI_Schrodingers_cat.png) that, in my opinion, looked like the Home World and Alternate World split in a nutshell. Suddenly all I could wonder was if this was the reason Square decided to put SO MANY CATS into the game. Made me chuckle a bit ('cause I like puns, a lot). I'm not sure I'll be able to look at Lynx the same way ever again...
6
Articles / Re: Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel Discussion
« on: December 25, 2009, 02:18:39 pm »
First off, sorry for reviving a long-dead topic.
After finally getting to see how Chrono Cross ends, I've had the chance to look into the theories that surround the Chrono series and through various links, found myself on this mammoth of an article. After taking a few nights to read it (it's very wordy), I came to my own theory that solves 2 of the Paradoxes using systems that are already realized. I've also come across a single question that is starting to boggle my mind. The question is:
If the Time Crash causes someone in the Sea of Eden area to move 14400 years into the future to Chronopolis/The ruined future, how is it that when you enter Chronopolis you are experiencing the prelude to the Time Crash (people are talking about getting ready to start the experiment)? Are the "gates" in the two dimensions connected to two different future dates? Or is the Chronopolis of Another World only a simulation of what happened 13020 years earlier? Are they holograms of the people but real security systems? I just feel lost by this. Any help on the matter would be appreciated.
As for the theories, I feel that the Guardia Line Paradox and the Telepod Paradoxes can both be explained using Time Error and the Schrodinger's Cat problem.
To quote WhatIs.com (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html):
Here's Schrödinger's (theoretical) experiment: We place a living cat into a steel chamber, along with a device containing a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial and kill the cat.
The observer cannot know whether or not an atom of the substance has decayed, and consequently, cannot know whether the vial has been broken, the hydrocyanic acid released, and the cat killed. Since we cannot know, the cat is both dead and alive according to quantum law, in a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and learn the condition of the cat that the superposition is lost, and the cat becomes one or the other (dead or alive). This situation is sometimes called quantum indeterminacy or the observer's paradox : the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that the outcome as such does not exist unless the measurement is made. (That is, there is no single outcome unless it is observed.)
----
Both of the two paradoxes can be defined in terms of this experiment. For the Guardia Ancestor Line, when Ayla time travels, she is now in a state where she is both alive and dead to 65,000,000,000 BC. That is to say, she has a possibility of returning, or a possibility of not returning. But as has been mentioned in the article, a possibility is not enough to affect the timelines. As such, until a point of certainty can be reached, both cases are possibilities so time takes the path of least resistance, the status quo.
The same can be said for Leene and the Telepods. When Marle is found in 600AD, there is a possibility that Leene will still be saved (for example, by Frog), or that she will be lost forever. So until a certainty can be assured, the timeline remains unchanged.
Now, lets extend the Schrodinger's Cat analogy further. Given enough time, the cat will run out of air, food, and/or water and can be guaranteed to be dead. And that is where Time Error comes in. If while time traveling, Time Error always moves forward, then at some point or another, an event cannot be fixed given the finite gates that exist and the people involved.
So, in Ayla's case, until Ayla dies (permanently) on her adventures, reaches menopause, or is assumed dead by Kino (who then finds a new gal), she still be considered "alive" by Schrodinger's Cat's standards. However, if any of those occur, they would be irreversible and the timeline would be forced to change. In terms of possibilities, even though the possibility of being "lost in time" exists, until it happens, it hasn't happened.
The same is true for Leene. Until the point in Time Error where there is no way for Leene to be saved, Chrono and Lucca have the ability to go back and help. If, say, Yakra would have killed her in a week after Marle's being found, then a week later (since it was assumed that the Timelines move at approximately the same pace), the timeline would change and Marle would have been stranded without anyone even knowing she ever existed.
As such, the solution isn't that the possibilities of "everything turns out okay" exist, but that the outcomes of "everything goes to hell" are still only possibilities on the line of Time Error.
************************************************************
Beyond that, I think I agree with many of the concepts given by mrnerdhair, though I think I would make one change. I would extend that the Darkness Between Time isn't just the dimensions that are inaccessible, but it is the space BETWEEN the dimensions that MAKES them inaccessible. The DBT is what prevents 5th dimensional travel (or travel between dimensions - I'd probably put Time Error as a 6th dimension or maybe even a 7th). This means that a timeline that is consumed by the DBT still exists, but cannot be accessed through normal means. However, an incident like a Time Crash can muck that up. Here's a visual image:
You have bunch of pieces of cooked spaghetti that are taped together at one end are laid out on a tray so that each noodle extends out straight in a different direction (so none touch except at the initial taped location and they spread out equally). The space between the noodles is the DBT and the taped location is the point in history that all the noodles have in common. Now take the tray and shake it. What happens? The noodles shift position and become wavy instead of straight. Suddenly some noodles become close to other noodles in some places but not others. Heck, some noodles may even curve around and overlap itself. This is, in my opinion, the Time Crash.
What this would mean is that each alternate dimension stays intact, but until the time crash happened in 2400, they were inaccessible to each other. However, when the Time Crash happens, the timelines for the Reptite timeline, the Lavos Timeline, and the Keystone T-1 timeline get close to each other. This allows Lavos to tear a hole to Chronopolis and this allows the Planet Entity to tear a hole to Dinopolis This also allows the Home and Another Dimensions to become close enough to each other that Serge can get through (We can assume that the original Another World time line that would eventually be changed by Kid's traveling back to save Serge still would have lead to a Time Crash which would be able to affect the split between the two dimensions). This can still account for the distortions that occur away from Opassa Beach. However, perhaps the DBT is not as this at those other locations (maybe the two dimensions actually touch at the beach) to allow crossing over. All we know is that they are close enough that the DBT cannot fully isolate them anymore.
This also means that, like mrnerdhair stated, this would mean that each dimension would have their own version of the DBT (since each would view everywhere but their own perceivable dimension(s) as DBT), but in the end the Time Devourer would exist in the self-same void between all dimensions and thus there could only be one Time Devourer (since an area devoid of all 5 dimensions would have to exist on a 6th+ dimension (which, again, is why I consider Time Error to be higher than 5th).
I'm not sure if this makes complete sense as written, but I think it fits with the established theories comfortably enough while explaining how somewhere like Chronopolis can be aware of multiple dimensions and how dimensions that should have been consumed can still contribute to the story.
Though, I suppose if there is a glaring impossibility that I'm just not seeing, I hope someone can show me the light. I'm still trying to wrap my head around some things.
Thanks for your time and sorry again for bringing back the dead.
After finally getting to see how Chrono Cross ends, I've had the chance to look into the theories that surround the Chrono series and through various links, found myself on this mammoth of an article. After taking a few nights to read it (it's very wordy), I came to my own theory that solves 2 of the Paradoxes using systems that are already realized. I've also come across a single question that is starting to boggle my mind. The question is:
If the Time Crash causes someone in the Sea of Eden area to move 14400 years into the future to Chronopolis/The ruined future, how is it that when you enter Chronopolis you are experiencing the prelude to the Time Crash (people are talking about getting ready to start the experiment)? Are the "gates" in the two dimensions connected to two different future dates? Or is the Chronopolis of Another World only a simulation of what happened 13020 years earlier? Are they holograms of the people but real security systems? I just feel lost by this. Any help on the matter would be appreciated.
As for the theories, I feel that the Guardia Line Paradox and the Telepod Paradoxes can both be explained using Time Error and the Schrodinger's Cat problem.
To quote WhatIs.com (http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html):
Here's Schrödinger's (theoretical) experiment: We place a living cat into a steel chamber, along with a device containing a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial and kill the cat.
The observer cannot know whether or not an atom of the substance has decayed, and consequently, cannot know whether the vial has been broken, the hydrocyanic acid released, and the cat killed. Since we cannot know, the cat is both dead and alive according to quantum law, in a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and learn the condition of the cat that the superposition is lost, and the cat becomes one or the other (dead or alive). This situation is sometimes called quantum indeterminacy or the observer's paradox : the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that the outcome as such does not exist unless the measurement is made. (That is, there is no single outcome unless it is observed.)
----
Both of the two paradoxes can be defined in terms of this experiment. For the Guardia Ancestor Line, when Ayla time travels, she is now in a state where she is both alive and dead to 65,000,000,000 BC. That is to say, she has a possibility of returning, or a possibility of not returning. But as has been mentioned in the article, a possibility is not enough to affect the timelines. As such, until a point of certainty can be reached, both cases are possibilities so time takes the path of least resistance, the status quo.
The same can be said for Leene and the Telepods. When Marle is found in 600AD, there is a possibility that Leene will still be saved (for example, by Frog), or that she will be lost forever. So until a certainty can be assured, the timeline remains unchanged.
Now, lets extend the Schrodinger's Cat analogy further. Given enough time, the cat will run out of air, food, and/or water and can be guaranteed to be dead. And that is where Time Error comes in. If while time traveling, Time Error always moves forward, then at some point or another, an event cannot be fixed given the finite gates that exist and the people involved.
So, in Ayla's case, until Ayla dies (permanently) on her adventures, reaches menopause, or is assumed dead by Kino (who then finds a new gal), she still be considered "alive" by Schrodinger's Cat's standards. However, if any of those occur, they would be irreversible and the timeline would be forced to change. In terms of possibilities, even though the possibility of being "lost in time" exists, until it happens, it hasn't happened.
The same is true for Leene. Until the point in Time Error where there is no way for Leene to be saved, Chrono and Lucca have the ability to go back and help. If, say, Yakra would have killed her in a week after Marle's being found, then a week later (since it was assumed that the Timelines move at approximately the same pace), the timeline would change and Marle would have been stranded without anyone even knowing she ever existed.
As such, the solution isn't that the possibilities of "everything turns out okay" exist, but that the outcomes of "everything goes to hell" are still only possibilities on the line of Time Error.
************************************************************
Beyond that, I think I agree with many of the concepts given by mrnerdhair, though I think I would make one change. I would extend that the Darkness Between Time isn't just the dimensions that are inaccessible, but it is the space BETWEEN the dimensions that MAKES them inaccessible. The DBT is what prevents 5th dimensional travel (or travel between dimensions - I'd probably put Time Error as a 6th dimension or maybe even a 7th). This means that a timeline that is consumed by the DBT still exists, but cannot be accessed through normal means. However, an incident like a Time Crash can muck that up. Here's a visual image:
You have bunch of pieces of cooked spaghetti that are taped together at one end are laid out on a tray so that each noodle extends out straight in a different direction (so none touch except at the initial taped location and they spread out equally). The space between the noodles is the DBT and the taped location is the point in history that all the noodles have in common. Now take the tray and shake it. What happens? The noodles shift position and become wavy instead of straight. Suddenly some noodles become close to other noodles in some places but not others. Heck, some noodles may even curve around and overlap itself. This is, in my opinion, the Time Crash.
What this would mean is that each alternate dimension stays intact, but until the time crash happened in 2400, they were inaccessible to each other. However, when the Time Crash happens, the timelines for the Reptite timeline, the Lavos Timeline, and the Keystone T-1 timeline get close to each other. This allows Lavos to tear a hole to Chronopolis and this allows the Planet Entity to tear a hole to Dinopolis This also allows the Home and Another Dimensions to become close enough to each other that Serge can get through (We can assume that the original Another World time line that would eventually be changed by Kid's traveling back to save Serge still would have lead to a Time Crash which would be able to affect the split between the two dimensions). This can still account for the distortions that occur away from Opassa Beach. However, perhaps the DBT is not as this at those other locations (maybe the two dimensions actually touch at the beach) to allow crossing over. All we know is that they are close enough that the DBT cannot fully isolate them anymore.
This also means that, like mrnerdhair stated, this would mean that each dimension would have their own version of the DBT (since each would view everywhere but their own perceivable dimension(s) as DBT), but in the end the Time Devourer would exist in the self-same void between all dimensions and thus there could only be one Time Devourer (since an area devoid of all 5 dimensions would have to exist on a 6th+ dimension (which, again, is why I consider Time Error to be higher than 5th).
I'm not sure if this makes complete sense as written, but I think it fits with the established theories comfortably enough while explaining how somewhere like Chronopolis can be aware of multiple dimensions and how dimensions that should have been consumed can still contribute to the story.
Though, I suppose if there is a glaring impossibility that I'm just not seeing, I hope someone can show me the light. I'm still trying to wrap my head around some things.
Thanks for your time and sorry again for bringing back the dead.
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