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Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Did Magus miss his big chance on Death Peak?
« on: July 29, 2010, 05:33:07 am »
A bit off topic, but I'm surprised that this thread made it to three pages without this quote from Radical Dreamers:
"Go, Serge! You're forgetting what's important...!"
Magil's eyes look straight over my shoulders.
"Don't repeat the same mistake I did! Protect... Kid..."
Since Magil had in the previous scene moved to protect Kid, it's hard to imagine what he's talking about other than his time as the Prophet. Which would mean by that point he considers everything he did during CT a mistake, and it's easy to read the line as specifically including Death Peak (trying to rescue the most useful person rather than the most important person is exactly what Serge does to provoke the line). Then again, in this timeline he did get his second chance, so it's not the most useful for this thread.
I see the arc going like so:
Pre-Ocean Palace: Magus wants Lavos dead, and he cares nothing for grandfather paradoxes or Schala's welfare. I find it more plausible that Magus doesn't care about the possibility of paradox than that he has the deep knowledge of chronophysics necessary to understand the non-existence of paradoxes; his education was cut off around fourth grade.
Ocean Palace: Magus starts having second thoughts once he sees how much pain Schala is in.
North Cape: At this point, Magus might be suicidal. Lavos won handily and Schala is nowhere to be found - he's been looking. I think it's as the party walks away that all the pieces click together in his mind and he decides to join up.
Death Peak: This is the part I'm still not sure about. I can't decide between "gathering data and a little jealous of everyone else", "furiously jealous but refusing to show it", and "resigned farewell" - although the last seems less likely with every new Chrono game, since it reduces saving Schala to a sidequest after dealing with Lavos.
Aftergame: Well, we know he goes looking for Schala. Not much else seems stable. In RD there's no indication when he learned the truth about Kid. In CC the most plausible outcomes are discovering Kid quite early (Lucca's letter) or a memory wipe (CTDS). Is there any good reason that both aren't true, and possibly a Home/Another split thrown in to complete my confusion?
"Go, Serge! You're forgetting what's important...!"
Magil's eyes look straight over my shoulders.
"Don't repeat the same mistake I did! Protect... Kid..."
Since Magil had in the previous scene moved to protect Kid, it's hard to imagine what he's talking about other than his time as the Prophet. Which would mean by that point he considers everything he did during CT a mistake, and it's easy to read the line as specifically including Death Peak (trying to rescue the most useful person rather than the most important person is exactly what Serge does to provoke the line). Then again, in this timeline he did get his second chance, so it's not the most useful for this thread.
I see the arc going like so:
Pre-Ocean Palace: Magus wants Lavos dead, and he cares nothing for grandfather paradoxes or Schala's welfare. I find it more plausible that Magus doesn't care about the possibility of paradox than that he has the deep knowledge of chronophysics necessary to understand the non-existence of paradoxes; his education was cut off around fourth grade.
Ocean Palace: Magus starts having second thoughts once he sees how much pain Schala is in.
North Cape: At this point, Magus might be suicidal. Lavos won handily and Schala is nowhere to be found - he's been looking. I think it's as the party walks away that all the pieces click together in his mind and he decides to join up.
Death Peak: This is the part I'm still not sure about. I can't decide between "gathering data and a little jealous of everyone else", "furiously jealous but refusing to show it", and "resigned farewell" - although the last seems less likely with every new Chrono game, since it reduces saving Schala to a sidequest after dealing with Lavos.
Aftergame: Well, we know he goes looking for Schala. Not much else seems stable. In RD there's no indication when he learned the truth about Kid. In CC the most plausible outcomes are discovering Kid quite early (Lucca's letter) or a memory wipe (CTDS). Is there any good reason that both aren't true, and possibly a Home/Another split thrown in to complete my confusion?
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History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Standards of Living: Guardia vs. Medina, years 600~1000
« on: July 29, 2010, 03:32:06 am »Most disturbingly, however, is that Marle appears to be produced through the female line. That is, Leene had a daughter who had a daughter who had a daughter who had Marle. Now either succession is not determined via the male line, or King Guardia XXXIII married his sister (or something like that). As this may mean that it is through the female line that kings and queens are determined, then many "kings" could have come and gone for each queen. Consider, for example, the case of King Henry VIII but in reverse. Leene's daughter could have had six husbands, taking us from Guardia XXII to XXVIII in just one generation.It's possible. There have been some human societies where royal succession was in the maternal line. However, usually the king was the hereditary queen's brother not the hereditary queen's husband, and rule passed to one of his nephews. The "Heiress Theory" of Ancient Egypt is the exact system proposed for Guardia, but it has recently come under heavy attack.
However, one bit of counter-evidence is that Japanese has two words for "queen," 王妃 (king's concubine) "queen consort" and 女王 (female king) "queen regnant". Leene is referred to as 王妃, never 女王. Interestingly, Queen Zeal is referred to as 女王 only. Japanese has several perfectly good words for "regent", so the implication is that Queen Zeal is queen in her own right.
Sure, the simple explanation is that both countries use patrilineal succession and the illustrations and titles were chosen for maximum ease of comprehension by middle school children, but this is more fun!
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Chrono Trigger Modification / Re: Level Zero - A Fixed Stat Modification for CT
« on: December 19, 2008, 12:34:55 pm »
I'm new to the idea of ROM hacking (savestate hacking was as far as I went). How did you change the multipliers for techs?
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History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: The Original Fall of Zeal
« on: October 29, 2008, 03:17:26 am »
It's been a long time since I went through the Future the first time. Do any of the people there tell you the year, or do you learn from a computer terminal or Robo? The computers and Robo were built before the Day of Lavos when Guardia might have still been in existence, or even if it had fallen the era too familiar to change. (IRL it takes a strong impetus to recenter a well-used calendar, either a new religion or adopting some other culture's calendar.)
I like the new name "Antiquity" for 12,000 BC. Despite historians' efforts, the "Dark Ages" sound like a time of ignorance, constant war, and suffering. "Antiquity" sounds like a period of ancient high culture, even if underpinned by slaves.
I like the new name "Antiquity" for 12,000 BC. Despite historians' efforts, the "Dark Ages" sound like a time of ignorance, constant war, and suffering. "Antiquity" sounds like a period of ancient high culture, even if underpinned by slaves.
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Polling / Re: If you had to...
« on: October 23, 2008, 05:09:45 pm »
It's interesting that in the Japanese script and retranslation, Magus loses some of his nasty sense of humor (or, more accurately, it was put into the NA script). The line "There's always time for a little fun" replaced "No act of defiance goes unpunished."
Referring to someone by title only is not uncommon in Japanese, where there are about half a dozen ways to say "you" and they're all rude when talking to a superior so titles are the only recourse.
Another significant change in the Japanese version is that when Magus and Ozzie meet for the last time at Ozzie's Fort, Ozzie said that he wanted to create a "world of the Mystics," not a "world of evil." After reading that, I wondered what Magus gets out of his own sidequest. I doubt he's much of a human/Guardian patriot, and he could have just gotten his gear and left.
Referring to someone by title only is not uncommon in Japanese, where there are about half a dozen ways to say "you" and they're all rude when talking to a superior so titles are the only recourse.
Another significant change in the Japanese version is that when Magus and Ozzie meet for the last time at Ozzie's Fort, Ozzie said that he wanted to create a "world of the Mystics," not a "world of evil." After reading that, I wondered what Magus gets out of his own sidequest. I doubt he's much of a human/Guardian patriot, and he could have just gotten his gear and left.
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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Is Magus really all that cool?
« on: June 24, 2008, 12:27:02 am »Plus, this was one of the first games EVER to let you play as a boss you fought earlier in the game. That's what made him so alluring to me.I agree. The only game I've played that let you do that prior to CT didn't give the characters a personality. If not for that twist, Magus wouldn't be anywhere near as cool as he is; he'd just be a particularly stubborn villain with a tragic past and a record of unbroken failure at all his schemes.
Changing the topic a bit, am I the only one who sees a proto-Magus in Necrosaro (Dragon Warrior IV)? Pretty badass, tragic story, involved in the plot, and after a certain revelation at the very end of the game I wanted to turn him into an ally. The remake *spoiler spoiler*. Much better than Golbez, who appeared the following year.
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Site Updates / Re: CHRONO TRIGGER: PROPHET'S GUILE, CT2 Interview
« on: March 18, 2008, 06:02:00 pm »
I know this thread is long dead, but two weeks ago I sent a copy of Prophet's Guile to a Magus-loving friend who has never heard of the Compendium. I thought his reaction might be of interest. Warning: spoilers!
Friend: The hack was alright. Not quite what I was hoping for
Me: What didn't you like?
Friend: Seems like he tried way to hard to seem like an intellectual
Friend: He used words you'd never have seen in CT
Friend: Plus Magus says, "My god!"
Friend: Could you ever imagine him saying that? Ever?
Me: Yeah, the writing wasn't so good. I can see him quite surprised, though, when something really blows up in his face.
Friend: Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work they did, but I think they tried a little too hard, if you know what I mean?
Me: No, I think they just can't write.
Friend: I'm taking a speed run through it right now
Me: Short, plot holes, not the best writing...on the other hand, it's done.
Friend: This is true
Friend: Which plot holes did you notice
Friend: Also, where the heck do I drop from at Mt. Woe? I see a treasure chest that I can't access
Friend: Nevermind, I found it
Me: Mostly the spells, although the total plot is a bit weird.
Friend: Yeah, magic wall is altogether useless
Friend: I didn't get any other spells. What is Magus without darkmatter? Granted it's supposed to be relatively early in the game
Me: Well, that's the big hole, he hasn't lost his powers yet.
Me: I don't think adding in the other spells would even hurt the game.
Me: With how few ethers there are, players would learn not to use Dark Matter every battle or else.
Friend: Well, I find that the last possible battle before the golem is the best place to level. The eel gives you a tonic and an ether, so you kill the two other guys with whichever spell, the eel drains your MP, then you use regular attacks against him until he's dead
Friend: Then you leave the room, use an ether and repeat the process. You get 2500EXP each time
Me: Yeah, that would work. I never saw the point of leveling up, though; it's like CT (and unlike some even worse CT spinoff fan-made games) in not needing any more leveling than you get from fighting every battle once.
Friend: I had a rough time with the golem
Friend: I had to level to lv. 40
Me: I was at 40 for that scene, IIRC.
Friend: I see
Friend: I think I'm at 38
Me: Ah, forgot, you went for a speed play and I didn't.
Me: I think for the golem I used Magic Wall and then attacked with Fire 2 till I ran out of Magic Wall, HP, MP, or golem.
Friend: Did magic wall even do anything?
Friend: I found that he did the same amount of damage with or without it
Me: I found it made a difference.
Friend: The hack was alright. Not quite what I was hoping for
Me: What didn't you like?
Friend: Seems like he tried way to hard to seem like an intellectual
Friend: He used words you'd never have seen in CT
Friend: Plus Magus says, "My god!"
Friend: Could you ever imagine him saying that? Ever?
Me: Yeah, the writing wasn't so good. I can see him quite surprised, though, when something really blows up in his face.
Friend: Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work they did, but I think they tried a little too hard, if you know what I mean?
Me: No, I think they just can't write.
Friend: I'm taking a speed run through it right now
Me: Short, plot holes, not the best writing...on the other hand, it's done.
Friend: This is true
Friend: Which plot holes did you notice
Friend: Also, where the heck do I drop from at Mt. Woe? I see a treasure chest that I can't access
Friend: Nevermind, I found it
Me: Mostly the spells, although the total plot is a bit weird.
Friend: Yeah, magic wall is altogether useless
Friend: I didn't get any other spells. What is Magus without darkmatter? Granted it's supposed to be relatively early in the game
Me: Well, that's the big hole, he hasn't lost his powers yet.
Me: I don't think adding in the other spells would even hurt the game.
Me: With how few ethers there are, players would learn not to use Dark Matter every battle or else.
Friend: Well, I find that the last possible battle before the golem is the best place to level. The eel gives you a tonic and an ether, so you kill the two other guys with whichever spell, the eel drains your MP, then you use regular attacks against him until he's dead
Friend: Then you leave the room, use an ether and repeat the process. You get 2500EXP each time
Me: Yeah, that would work. I never saw the point of leveling up, though; it's like CT (and unlike some even worse CT spinoff fan-made games) in not needing any more leveling than you get from fighting every battle once.
Friend: I had a rough time with the golem
Friend: I had to level to lv. 40
Me: I was at 40 for that scene, IIRC.
Friend: I see
Friend: I think I'm at 38
Me: Ah, forgot, you went for a speed play and I didn't.
Me: I think for the golem I used Magic Wall and then attacked with Fire 2 till I ran out of Magic Wall, HP, MP, or golem.
Friend: Did magic wall even do anything?
Friend: I found that he did the same amount of damage with or without it
Me: I found it made a difference.
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Retranslation of Chrono Trigger / Re: Retranslation Bug Report Thread
« on: March 16, 2008, 12:08:19 am »
Hmm, a typo not a bug, but I noticed that the line "These guy's are monsters!" [sic] uttered by the hench running the store in Medina Village after you beat him has an unnecessary apostrophe with no corresponding bad grammar I can see in the Japanese version.
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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Translation help.
« on: January 15, 2008, 04:48:09 pm »
Miki: "Not a member of the Magical Dreamers, Miki has been established as a dancer in the port city of Termina. Good at not very sophisticated feelings [?]".
Slash (Nikki): "Cool or bad, it's difficult to tell. Could his little sister next to him be Miki? Or else..."
I'll translate more later, if you can't find a better translator.
Slash (Nikki): "Cool or bad, it's difficult to tell. Could his little sister next to him be Miki? Or else..."
I'll translate more later, if you can't find a better translator.
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Site Updates / Re: Chrono Trigger Retranslation Patch Released! Media, Fan Art, Pre Entries
« on: January 14, 2008, 12:48:11 am »
I believe I've found an error (not a bug) in the retranslation.
Magus: だが今度は他の者達が、足手まといにならねばいいがな。
This is translated as: But this time, those of the earth would do better not to hinder me.
My Japanese is certainly not good enough to translate CT, but I spotted that 他 (TA, "other") is being translated as 地 (CHI, "earth"). I checked a Japanese playthrough at that spot, and 他 is not a mistake. Keeping your nice structure, I would translate the line as: But this time, others would do better not to hinder me.
Magus: だが今度は他の者達が、足手まといにならねばいいがな。
This is translated as: But this time, those of the earth would do better not to hinder me.
My Japanese is certainly not good enough to translate CT, but I spotted that 他 (TA, "other") is being translated as 地 (CHI, "earth"). I checked a Japanese playthrough at that spot, and 他 is not a mistake. Keeping your nice structure, I would translate the line as: But this time, others would do better not to hinder me.
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Site Updates / Re: CHRONO TRIGGER: PROPHET'S GUILE, CT2 Interview
« on: January 11, 2008, 05:52:27 pm »
I just finished my first playthrough and only found one Obulus, so I'm definitely going to have to play through it again. Not today, though.
---SPOILER TAG (for the easily spoiled; nothing really sensitive in there)
Negatives:
1. Too short and combat-heavy for my taste. I know it's not much of an RPG without fights, but I had envisioned more puzzles and dialogue choices.
2. Magus lacking his techs is anachronistic; I thought he lost those in the Ocean Palace. Resources are too scarce to blow through everything with Dark Matter even if it were an option.
3. A few lines of dialogue felt wrong.
4. I was hoping to control the Prophet through the Ocean Palace. Although, in retrospect, that would have been one extended forced scene rather than a game.
Positives:
1. Better a short completed game than a long unfinished project.
2. The difficulty was right - not harder than a Chrono game should be, but brute force didn't work that well.
3. Good art and music.
4. Aside from a clunker or three, Magus talked like Magus and he certainly acted like Magus.
5. The cutscenes showing the main party connected the game to the main story and drove home how little time Magus had to set things up perfectly.
6. Magus's reactions to Schala and Janus were good, at least how I envisioned them based on CT. No time for sentimentality, there's a giant space porcupine to deal with.
--END SPOILER TAG
I'd like to see a game like this (or several) set during the Mystic wars of the 6th century, for example Cyrus's quest for the Hero Medal, but I can see how that would be a much larger project and I'd rather see Crimson Echoes.
Edit: On the second playthrough, I had no problem finding all three oboli.
---SPOILER TAG (for the easily spoiled; nothing really sensitive in there)
Negatives:
1. Too short and combat-heavy for my taste. I know it's not much of an RPG without fights, but I had envisioned more puzzles and dialogue choices.
2. Magus lacking his techs is anachronistic; I thought he lost those in the Ocean Palace. Resources are too scarce to blow through everything with Dark Matter even if it were an option.
3. A few lines of dialogue felt wrong.
4. I was hoping to control the Prophet through the Ocean Palace. Although, in retrospect, that would have been one extended forced scene rather than a game.
Positives:
1. Better a short completed game than a long unfinished project.
2. The difficulty was right - not harder than a Chrono game should be, but brute force didn't work that well.
3. Good art and music.
4. Aside from a clunker or three, Magus talked like Magus and he certainly acted like Magus.
5. The cutscenes showing the main party connected the game to the main story and drove home how little time Magus had to set things up perfectly.
6. Magus's reactions to Schala and Janus were good, at least how I envisioned them based on CT. No time for sentimentality, there's a giant space porcupine to deal with.
--END SPOILER TAG
I'd like to see a game like this (or several) set during the Mystic wars of the 6th century, for example Cyrus's quest for the Hero Medal, but I can see how that would be a much larger project and I'd rather see Crimson Echoes.
Edit: On the second playthrough, I had no problem finding all three oboli.
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