Chrono Compendium

Kajar Laboratories - Fan Works and Submissions => Fan Fiction => Topic started by: Grace Ashtear on August 14, 2012, 06:15:47 pm

Title: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 14, 2012, 06:15:47 pm
I'm fairly new when it comes to fanfics, but I have received many compliments when it comes to my writing. This is after both Trigger and Cross (and Radical Dreamers I suppose) and assuming this is one of the ways the timeline changed. It's kind of hard to explain without spoiling, so just feel free to read it.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/1/Chrono_Relics
Also, I'm really nitpicky about spelling and grammar. If you notice anything, please tell me.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 15, 2012, 06:53:46 pm
I'll offer some constructive criticism, but promise you won't take it the wrong way. I'm not saying you're stupid. I'm pointing out how you could improve in a future draft. Also, this is just one person's opinion.
For starters, if that's the whole thing, and I assume it's not, it's rather short and I think it could use some breathing room. Even for just one chapter or one part, it's pretty short, and I find myself wanting to know more about the situation being presented. What does the reader call the nameless villain or antihero? The "master" is vague and while it is rather to the point, it's pretty obvious this is a badguy. While that might be what you're going for, you could take the vagueness a step further and make him a true person of mystery, who could be portrayed as a goodguy, since his intent and motivations are ambiguous we really don't know anything about him. The name Talzar reminds me of a generic He-Man character, but if he's a badguy too that's forgivable, it certainly sounds "bad"(not poor quality, but like an evil character). So, yeah, just more. That's all I want. Either more mystery, or more evil, or more confusion, or more detail about this guy, like whether it's even a guy or a woman and I've been wrong all along, what this person looks like, are they even human or some kind of Mystic or Reptite or something else, how does this person know what happened in previous timelines after the changes have been made but not even know how to travel through time, especially if this person is just from 1020AD and doesn't have the advantage of magic from the dark ages or technology from the future, how does he know about lucca, how does this tie in to the other characters and their fates, etc.

This might sound contrary to what I just said, asking you to write more and make it longer, but hear me out. I think the whole first three paragraphs could be cut out completely and not have any effect on the actual story you're telling. They simply serve as an aside from the author to the audience, but don't work as a narrative. It's meant to be a re-cap of the events of Trigger and Cross and there are some good new ideas in there that I think would be better without the super-condensed "legends". This could be remedied by placing it within a framing device, maybe it's a character telling another character what happened in their view. It could even be the nameless villain you've already presented. But just having text blocks for the purpose of exposition makes it seem too rushed to be appreciated and reminds me a lot of Star Wars when it suddenly transitions to the narrative. You could separate it out of Chapter one into a Prologue. Personally, I think it could just go and you'd be better off.

It wasn't all bad, but there's definitely room to grow and I'm not sure if you've got a whole story planned out or are just making it up as you go, there weren't many clues either way. But really it's just jarring to have two glaringly different styles in one chapter without any formatting break between the two or any transition from one into the other.

Some things I particularly liked were the idea that a Creator would be required to truly cleanse the timeline, though the Creator might have ulterior motives that aren't necessarily "good". I liked the description of the amulet, and the clear plot to find Lucca, which I'm sure introduces a plotline I haven't seen yet that will ultimately reunite the characters we know and love for a new adventure, but again I haven't actually read any of that so keep writing!
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 15, 2012, 07:21:21 pm
I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, but these are the villains of the story and the master's name is said at the very end, Serpedes. (Let me tell you, much later you will find out his origins that I think will be a very interesting plot twist.)
There was a separation between the introduction (which I think was rambly now that I look back.) but ff.net cut it out. I'll try to reupload it or just make it into a prologue of a sorts. What is most important to me is that people understand the concept of the woven threads of time.
I think I'll work on the second chapter now, because anyone who will read this wants to know about the characters we know and love.
Second edit? Ugh! Anyways... I do have a lot of a plot thought out, so this isn't a complete improv story, don't worry!
edit 3: Openoffice and the copy/paste method of ff.net are being bitches with me and the horizontal lines being in between every paragraph. Also, whatever separators I decide to use (even things like ***** or *~*~*~*~*) aren't showing up. I just about give up with fixing it.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Thought on August 15, 2012, 09:03:02 pm
I'll try to follow Bekkler's model and offer some constructive criticism as well.

There are a few things that are problematic, but the two biggest, I'd say, is a need for ""in late, out early" and more natural dialogue.

Or, in other words, start your prose just a moment after a scene starts getting interesting, and leave it just before it starts being boring. In your case, we start before there's really anything going on in the scene. Indeed, nothing happens in any of it. These ne'er-do-wells are just standing around talking. As such, there's no hook. Perhaps add some interpersonal conflict between Master and Talzar. Perhaps Master called Talzar in because it's pissed at waiting for the lacky to find a way to get at Lavos, and has decided to publically punish him. The scene, then, becomes a verbal fight at Talzar tries to convince his leader that he really has found a solution. But that is just one suggestion, I'm sure you can think of better.

Unfortunately, your dialogue is a bit stilted. First, assume that your readers are competent. There's no need to explain every little aspect. Conversations make leaps. Second, move your exposition to later. There's no hint that this is a high level planning meeting, and even if it was, chances are the Master wouldn't be involved (people bring solutions to leaders, they don't bother them with the minute planning). More generally, you have a problem with info dumping, but that's a discussion for another day. And third, try trimming about 10% of the dialogue you keep. For example:

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"Talzar, have you found a way to Lavos?"

"Yes, my lord. The reason others have failed is that only its pure power can control time. Unfortunately, it's been tainted with the Earth's. We must extract the raw power to succeed. We must return to when he first came to Earth."

"Time travel? How?"

"The Epoch. This machine has been dismantled, and Belthazar has escaped this time, but there is one left who knows how to build it. We can reconstruct it and travel to when Lavos arrived. You have the spells for it, yes?"

"I have them. But we require the Relics. Do you have a plan to get through the protection of their temples? And who can rebuild the Epoch?"

"Not a man, a brilliant woman in Guardia, one of those so-called Heroes of Time. Lucca Ashtear. They all can enter the temples. We'll bait them with a reason to use the relics."

"How?"

"I've always wanted to use this little trinket. We'll place its curse upon the one we want. Only the relics can break it. Undoubtedly, the heroes will want the relics to save their friend. They'll gathering them... and give them to us. Once we tap into the thoughts of our new servant, Lucca, the Epoch will return. We'll use the relics to control of Lavos, and the heroes."

"Very well. Let us go to Truce, to take this Lucca. Soon, all times will learn to fear the name of Lord Serpedes."

I only added the occasional word so that your sentences still made sense by what I cut. Though, again, I'm sure you could make things more refined.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 15, 2012, 09:57:02 pm
Alright. I think I focus too much on my writing being bland so I make it more complicated. I'll put in your dialogue to make it sound more natural.
The meeting is that Talzar has come up with the plot to take Lavos's power, while Serpedes is working on the arrangements.
I'm currently working on Chapter 2 and I'm about... a third done with it? If you want to, tell me if anything is better.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Thought on August 15, 2012, 11:00:02 pm
I'll put in your dialogue to make it sound more natural.

Oh I'm sure my version needs work. I was just trying to give an example of what I was talking about. Generally speaking, readers often know when there is a problem, but rarely how to fix it.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: FaustWolf on August 15, 2012, 11:59:05 pm
Grace, I think I see what you mean about using complexity to keep your prose from becoming bland. For what it's worth, I enjoyed your opening for the merits of the phrasing itself -- the fact that Mr. Bekkler and Thought are offering higher-order advice is a testament to the fact that you've got a lot going for you already. It seems to me you could recycle the material in your intro as dialogue a learned scholar of time/dimensional travel might deliver to an initiate.

When handling dialogue, one of my favorite techniques is to intersperse character action with what they're saying. Let me borrow some snippets from William Peter Blatty (ever my favorite author!) to illustrate:

(http://i.imgur.com/i2RXn.jpg)

This helps pump character into characters, I think. It also gives the reader's eye a break when dialogue would otherwise run on in a big block. It looks like you're already exploring this sort of thing -- I say keep it up and push it further!

Some smaller notes: I think you're using "plains" when "planes" would be best, and be careful with your "than"/"then" -- I saw one place where you had the latter when you should have used the former ("better then" should be "better than").
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 16, 2012, 12:23:53 am
@Thought: I know, so I made some of my own edits to it. Hopefully it sounds more natural.

@Faust: I'm glad to see someone understands my point of view. I do try to pay attention to add actions along with dialogue, which is what it seems a lot of fanfic writers lack.
Your smaller notes: I was debating whenever to use "plains" or "planes" and I picked the former because the latter made me think of airplanes (and mostly for what it is used for) I changed all of them, as well as the "then".

Also, chapter 2 is up.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/2/Chrono_Relics
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 16, 2012, 03:00:05 am
Sorry I didn't catch the name before, that was actually well handled.

I am inclined to agree with Faust and Thought on a few points: I think mixing character action into the dialogue would be effective for the first chapter (haven't read the second yet). For example, rather than just have the badguys talking about their plan, perhaps they could be having the same conversation while doing something decidedly evil. They could be overseeing a torture room and have prisoner's screams interspersed, or watching some kind of tv monitor or tracking their plans on a map, or anything (in-character) in addition to just standing and talking.

I'll re-read to see your current changes and check out ch2 when I have time again, if you're interested in more critique and/or idea-bouncing.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 17, 2012, 07:49:37 pm
Sudden silence is sudden.
Also, I think it was partly my doing, since Thought also missed that was supposed to be the master's name.

Chapter 3, it's getting intense.
www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/3/Chrono_Relics
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 17, 2012, 11:11:46 pm
I would encourage you to keep the "author's notes" out of the actual chapters, and in the forum conversation. I haven't commented because I wasn't sure that you wanted any more critique, you never answered. Anyway, I read Chapter 2 and it's coming along much better than the first chapter already. The characters are actually doing something, there's a few clues as to how they're connected to those we already know and love, and the dialogue feels more like people talking and less like a forced lecture, though it is still very short. If Chapter 1 or 2 were in a real book they'd each be a single page, front and back, approximately. Chapter 3 looks like it's getting more ambitious in length (haven't actually read any of it yet I just opened the link real quick to take a peek) so I'll see where it leads.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 18, 2012, 12:40:13 am
Critique Question: Sorry I kept you waiting. I still welcome critique if you have any. I mainly didn't reply because I didn't want to post again until I had Chapter 3 up, which took longer than expected (hopefully it shows).

Length Issue: I've been trying to work with that. Chapter 1 and 2 are both about 1,000 words long and take up 2 MWord pages. Chapter 3 "flowed" much easier for me because it is a pretty intense part. It ended up doubling its length compared to the first two, which I like and will try to mantain.

Author's Notes: I put the author's notes in the chapters for other people reading this outside of the Compendium. Sorry if that is too inconvenient.
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the dialogue feels more like people talking and less like a forced lecture
This must have been me failing at a "villains planning" conversation. I took it too far as it was pretty clear. Cassander's and Talia's was easier because it is just a friend to friend conversation, as opposed to master to minion.
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there's a few clues as to how they're connected to those we already know and love
He he, I love writing about those kinds of things. The only thing I am worried about though is arguments coming up about how Talia's dad is *him*. Mostly, I have to thank Lady Marle on here for getting me onto that ship. ^_^
P.S. If LM ever reads this, I'm still looking forward to Chrono Sovereign and am sort of distracting myself by writing this!
Edit: Doh, don't want to look like a random stranger. My dA username is is Flareon-Schaeffer
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 18, 2012, 01:35:28 am
That makes sense. I don't think Chapter one is a failure, so to speak, just a hard place to start. It needs an injection of some special something but what, I can't tell you specifically. It's the first encounter with the villains, so again, I'd recommend adding some kind of act the two characters could be doing to show the reader their motivations are clearly evil. Chapter two could be beefed up a little, just with some general description of the setting added, if not whole conversations with other characters. This is your chance to do some world-building and show the reader what (I assume) the main characters' home town is like, what they normally do and what kind of reputation they might have around town, not to mention how people live, just basics like where they buy their groceries, how gossip spreads, etc. That kind of thing.

As far as the author's notes, it might seem fine to you now while the chapter and notes are current, but you might regret it later when you have more (or all) done and they're peppered with outdated comments. Most of the notes seem to be requests for people to comment, and I don't know of a way to comment on that site anyway so it seems silly to me and not like a book at all. Nothing personal, but as the saying goes "it's 90% presentation, and 10% content" in regard to keeping an audience's attention.

I'll be sure to give you more notes when I finish chapter 3. And please don't take my criticisms the wrong way, I know I can be blunt sometimes but I'd rather be honest than pamper someone who could legitimately improve like yourself. Edit: If you're interested in reading anything I've written, here (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,7703.msg168881.html#msg168881) are two (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,9495.0.html) very different examples.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 18, 2012, 01:48:44 am
None of your criticisms have been taken personally. In fact, I welcome them even more since I like to see that change from people at school who all they say to me is "OMG! It's so good! Do you plan on a career in writing?" For the showing they are evil, I would think anyone trying to get Lavos's power would be evil, let alone that they want to kidnap Lucca and do God-knows-what to her. Whenever I can, maybe I'll go back and improve the writing.
Commenting on ff.net is done by the review box at the bottom of every chapter. They're just called "reviews" instead of "comments" I only have one on there so far from SimplyWaters, who I don't know if they are a member on the Compendium or not.
Now that you say that about the author's notes, I won't do that anymore. I think I'm going to start Chapter 4 now since I have been wanting for a long time to write the end part of Chapter 3 and beyond.
Edit: Ah, I see at what you're going for in your stories! I think I should start describing the scenery a little more or what's going on around the characters. I must have backed a little off on it because last time I did that I went overboard. Naturally, I'm still going to have a lot of room for improvement, I'm only just going into high school after all...
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 18, 2012, 02:14:24 am
Edit: Ah, I see at what you're going for in your stories! I think I should start describing the scenery a little more or what's going on around the characters.

Exactly! Obviously my writing's not perfect either but you get a sense for what kind of place the character is in and it helps establish their state of mind and how they fit into the setting. (Guideline, not a rule, coming up: )Make sure when you do this you don't take the focus too far away from what's going on, only give the details that are important to the situation (or interesting because of the situation). I personally choose to write about misfit characters for whom nothing seems to go right, and to establish that I focus on the more depressing parts of the scenery. If it's a happy situation, I might describe the things that smell nice and have bright colors or pretty sounds. If it's more tense, I'll use shorter sentences and direct the action quickly, as though it were a choreographed scene in a movie. Just try to get into your character's heads and know them and know how they work, and it'll come easy with a little practice.

And you're just going in to high school? Hell, keep writing, you can probably hone your skill really well before you even graduate.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 18, 2012, 02:22:05 am
I've already started applying it to Chapter 4. Hopefully the quality improves by each chapter. Speaking of, do you have anything to say for Chapter 3?

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And you're just going in to high school?

Heh. I don't mean to, but I always seem older on the internet. And yep. I'm going to be a freshman in high school, 15 on September 30. (I think on Minecraft someone thought I was at least 17. Goes to show...)
Edit: Why hello new page!
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 18, 2012, 02:26:55 am
I guess I was surprised since your grammar and spelling seem to be on point. Not done collecting thoughts on chapter three yet. I'll sleep on it and post tomorrow morning bright and early when I get to class. (I'm 26 and have about a week and a half left til I graduate college - stay in school! ...or else you just have to go back later haha)
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 19, 2012, 03:01:54 am
Well, Chapter 4 is about half way done. I have to go to a public barbeque tomorrow, so it may have to wait until Monday.

On a better note, I actually majorly updated Chapter 1! More setting detail, tweaked dialogue, yada yada. (Sadly, still rather short) Feel free to mention possible improvement.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/1/Chrono_Relics
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Lennis on August 19, 2012, 07:19:28 am
I have three concerns with what I have read.

The first is that you're posting your work on (ugh) FanFiction.net .  You have clearly developing talents, and I think they are wasted on that horrific medium.  It is a place for bad writers to hang out, not good ones.  They don't even let you make proper paragraphs for christsakes!  Try putting your work in PDF format, as much for yourself as for your readers.  You'll get a better sense of how your prose reads if it were in a real book.  That helps more than you might think.

My next concern is the premise of your story.  You establish things very quickly from the villain's perspective and reveal a substantial portion of their plans and motives right off.  That's really not good policy if you want to maintain an element of mystery, discovery, or surprise, which is rather important in any novelistic endeavor.  Another foundational problem is your plot device of "Lets use the heroes to get (x) of something because we (presumably) cannot get them ourselves."  This plot has been used so many times, particularly in video games, that I cringe every time I see it pop up.  I want to take Lucca's Wondershot and riddle it with blaster bolts.

My third concern is how you portray the battle of chapter 3 playing out toward the end.  Seriously, is this the same team that vaped Lavos in Chrono Trigger?  They don't seem to do all that well against these small-fry.  But more important than that is how you have enemy reinforcements pop up out of nowhere to give the villain an easy win while the heroes just look on helplessly.  If the enemy has the power to do that, why do they need Lucca and company to fetch relics?  This plot device has also been done to death in video games.  You need to ask yourself if you're playing a video game or writing a story.  I understand the need to give the player things to do in a game by making them fetch (x) of something to accomplish (y).  Is that an interesting way to approach a story?  I mean, we can already see how things will play out.  The heroes collect the relics, the enemy gets what they want, the heroes engage in a titanic battle to stop the now-stronger villain and somehow win where they couldn't before, and life goes on.  Am I missing anything?

I don't mean to seem overly negative with these points, Grace.  A lot of young writers fall into these traps.  But it's best you become aware of them early so you don't start developing bad habits.  Stories are very hard to fix if you have a bad foundation.  Take this from someone who knows.

More positively, your descriptive prose is very good, especially considering your age.  I'm envious.  If I had your level of talent at age 15, I'd be a much better writer today - and I don't consider myself a slouch in that department.  The best advice I can give you is to expand your horizons and envision narrative situations that can turn into single-spaced chapters of ten pages or more.  To do that, it is best to keep character front and center and not feel pressured to rush the plot.  After all, who cares about plot if the characters aren't interesting?


To give you a little bit of direct help, I noticed a line of dialogue from Glenn in chapter 3 that could do with some revision.

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"She possesses thine traits as her mother, yet she carries much determination."
  Translated from Shakespearean English, this line makes little sense.  Just using the word "thine" does not a proper medieval sentence make.  (For future reference, the word "thine" is only used preceding a word with a vowel sound.)  Try replacing it with this:

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"She possess the traits of her mother, determination being the most fully passed, though the others be hardly lacking."
  Read this way, your earlier description of Glenn's medieval dialect being less prevalent in his speech is more clearly demonstrated, but he still does not speak in a contemporary fashion.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 19, 2012, 02:00:26 pm
Glenn Speech: Replaced Glenn's line. It's pretty clear I'm a noob at Old English.
ff.net PDFs: I don't know how to make PDFs and post them to the internet. Otherwise I would do that specifically for you guys (and myself if you insist). Plus, I don't know how I would be able to make possible updates to chapters.
Info Dumping: And, gah. That whole information dump thing gets me still. I need to think of a way to stretch it out a little more.
Overused Plots: Oh dear, I didn't know how overused that concept was. I can do my best to play it out in a unique way, though I don't think that will be saying much.
Underpowered Heroes: I was afraid of that. The point though is if you had to fight thousands of those cronies, wouldn't even great heroes tire out?
I punched out Cthulhu and now I don't know what to do!: First: That was years ago, and naturally they are out of practice. Second, well, they had swords pressed to their children's throats. I honestly wouldn't know what to do in that case even if I did have magic.
Poof! Minions!: I need to rephrase that. they were mainly supposed to be coming from up the cliff or possibly from the roof.

I realize these sound like I'm defending myself (and that I go on TV Tropes too much), but honestly I feel really shaky about all my writing now. My worst fear is that I will have to start the whole thing over or possibly cancel it. I will do my best to fix it up, but hopefully it won't change the concept of the story.
I'm going to be unavailable for about 8 hours, so hopefully I will hear something in that time.
P.S. Am I the only one who is getting a bunch of 503 errors? It's making things take much longer and annoying.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Lennis on August 19, 2012, 06:58:17 pm
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P.S. Am I the only one who is getting a bunch of 503 errors? It's making things take much longer and annoying.

I've been noticing that, too.  Ramsus is supposed to be doing some maintenance today, so hopefully the issue will be corrected.

For my writing, I use a program called OpenOffice.  It has an option to export a word document directly as a PDF.  PDF is a document/picture format used by Adobe Acrobat Reader, I believe.  A lot of computers come with Adobe software pre-installed, so you may not have to download anything.  And unless I'm mistaken, OpenOffice is freeware.

I have to say, though, that PDF's aren't a great choice if you're always updating your chapters, at least as far as posting them is concerned.  PDFs are really intended for final presentations rather than drafts.  Still, the more professional look they give a manuscript actually help with editing.  Mistakes tend to stand out more in that format, I've noticed.

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Overused Plots: Oh dear, I didn't know how overused that concept was. I can do my best to play it out in a unique way, though I don't think that will be saying much.

Yeah, the plots I've mentioned have been used since before you were born, sadly.  Western games have been breaking out of that mold in recent years, but Japanese game stories have been slower to change.  It's still possible to turn old conventions on their ears by presenting them in different ways, but that is really hard to do.

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Glenn Speech: Replaced Glenn's line. It's pretty clear I'm a noob at Old English.

I'm not all that experienced at it either.  My version of Glenn isn't a true representation of old English, but more of a hodgepodge of different dialects from the past.  I could always make it more accurate, but that would require extensive study in Shakespeare, and certain lines would not read very smoothly in true Shakespearean.  I suggest you study Shakespeare with more diligence than I did in school.  It can only help you.

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...honestly I feel really shaky about all my writing now. My worst fear is that I will have to start the whole thing over or possibly cancel it.

You don't need to feel shaky about your skills.  The talent is there.  You just need a more solid grasp of story structure.  That will come with time.  And you really haven't written enough material to worry about starting over.  There's no law that says you have to keep it all or scrap it all.  If you like a certain description, or sequence of dialogue, copy and paste it to a notepad and label it.  You might be able to use it in a way you didn't first intend as your story takes shape.  I've written entire scenes in an initial draft that ended up looking very different in a more finalized version, but bits and pieces of the original draft still made it in.  Don't feel pressured to rush through.  Find out what you most like about your story idea and enshrine it in your mind.  Let things develop naturally.  Is your story about the villain?  Or is it about the world and its history?  Or is it about one of the heroes?  Pick one and build on that.  Personally, I would pick one or two of the heroes and run with it.  Do you want a coming-of-age story about young heroes trying to live up to the legacy of their parents?  Or do you want a story about aging heroes trying to adjust to new realities and a possible decline of the skills that made them heroes?  Both are valid ideas, but the first has been done far more often than the second.  (Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan is an excellent example of the aging heroes type.)  I don't know the full scope of your idea, but you could take a really bold direction and make it about Lucca.  You could take her amulet curse and internalize it.  Is her will fully subsumed, or is she hiding a piece of her soul in a forgotten corner of her mind to use against her enemies at a key moment?  Does she decline quickly or slowly?  No matter which direction you choose, develop the characters some before charging full ahead with the plot.  Don't be afraid to think big.  You're not writing an essay with a word limit, after all.

Hope I wasn't rambling there.  :oops:

 
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 19, 2012, 07:00:31 pm
The 503 Errors were server issues, they used to pop up from time to time but Ramsus was working on fixing it so it should be ok now.

While I agree with Lennis on a few counts, namely that ff.net isn't ideal for formatting, and that the basic plot is rather cliche, I have to disagree with the assumption that a cliche is a bad thing. Considering your source story is Chrono Trigger, which is the motherload of cliches wrapped into one package, I'd say if you came up with something entirely original it would feel out of place in this "world". The real trick is how you handle them and how you make them new, fresh, and surprising. I find that cliches are a good way to set up audience expectations, like how Lennis came to this conclusion out of what was written so far:
The heroes collect the relics, the enemy gets what they want, the heroes engage in a titanic battle to stop the now-stronger villain and somehow win where they couldn't before, and life goes on.

It is easy to see how it looks like it's unfolding. So right when your reader thinks he/she knows what's about to happen, you can throw them a curve-ball (also called a revelation or a twist) to have exactly the opposite happen.
For example: What if the badguys told the main characters their plan and accidentally let it slip that the only way they could be defeated is with these relics, then when the goodguys collect the relics, the badguys could reveal that it wasn't accidental, they intentionally used reverse psychology to get the goodguys to bring the relics to them so it would make them more powerful?
Another example: What if the badguys posed as goodguys, and got the Chrono team to work for them, since they have a similar goal (destroying Lavos) that can be exploited by holding back information?


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More positively, your descriptive prose is very good, especially considering your age.  I'm envious.  If I had your level of talent at age 15, I'd be a much better writer today - and I don't consider myself a slouch in that department.  The best advice I can give you is to expand your horizons and envision narrative situations that can turn into single-spaced chapters of ten pages or more.  To do that, it is best to keep character front and center and not feel pressured to rush the plot.  After all, who cares about plot if the characters aren't interesting?

An idea that works with this sentiment would be to take Chapter 1 and re-write it completely, but start even farther back. Show how the characters find out about Lavos, show why they want to destroy it, where the relics came from, how Talzar comes up with his plan, etc. It could focus on Talzar entirely and have no dialogue and just go over his actions. Maybe he goes into an old mountain or a hard-to-reach cave and finds ruins or artifacts or an old library or something and the audience learns what's going on as he does. There's plenty of ideas if you're willing to explore them.

I think you have ideas that will work just fine, you just need to expand and show what's going on in your writing rather than have a character tell the audience. Don't be afraid of going back and re-doing something. If you did it once, you can do it again, it's something I learned in art school. Art (including music and writing) is ever-changing, and is never truly finished, only abandoned. The only reason anybody ever says "this is finished" is because they had a deadline or they got sick of looking for things to fix. Don't let yourself get sick of it and you'll keep improving.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 19, 2012, 07:27:02 pm
Quote
For my writing, I use a program called OpenOffice.
Well, go figure! That just happens to be the program I'm using. I'll look at that now...

While I agree with Lennis on a few counts, namely that ff.net isn't ideal for formatting, and that the basic plot is rather cliche, I have to disagree with the assumption that a cliche is a bad thing. Considering your source story is Chrono Trigger, which is the motherload of cliches wrapped into one package, I'd say if you came up with something entirely original it would feel out of place in this "world". The real trick is how you handle them and how you make them new, fresh, and surprising. I find that cliches are a good way to set up audience expectations,
I have absolutely nothing to say about this except that I agree to the point. Cliche won't necessarily be a bad thing as long as it's not boring. I already have an idea for a major plot twist, but I will wait until I get there.

Quote
An idea that works with this sentiment would be to take Chapter 1 and re-write it completely, but start even farther back.
Ya know, I was just considering that today. I think I will rewrite it completely and fix the info dumping. As for starting back further, I can't really do that. Mainly, how Talzar and Serpedes know about the whole Heroes of Time and Lavos is a major spoiler if I said their origins. I can tell you though it's something we are familiar with...
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: alfadorredux on August 19, 2012, 09:07:39 pm
I really wouldn't advise posting your work as PDF. PDFs are meant to be printed out, not read on-screen, and most people don't bother to print out fanfic before reading it. Also, they tend to be big, bloated files. Clean, hand-coded HTML is a better format for on-line posting (ff.net, however, couldn't produce a clean document if someone whacked them over the head with the instructions).

(I'm going to break off there, because I've scared people away before with my critiques of their fiction, and I don't want to do it again.)
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 19, 2012, 09:21:52 pm
Well now I don't know what to do about making it a PDF. Also, you've made me curious about your critiques, but then again I'm not sure if I would be scared off...  :?

I am fond of the first two paragraphs of my story, so I still kept them in. However, I rewrote the rest, so now I'd like to hear responses. It's longer than the previous, but still somewhat short.
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/1/Chrono_Relics

Edit: After waiting for the 503 to disappear for forever (in which I actually fired up CT and beat Lavos again in that time) I can finally post that Chapter 4 is up! I feel like I put more effort into it, so hopefully that shows. Now with 50% more length!
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/4/Chrono_Relics

A few concerns I have: In which possibly...
The curse is a little too much like a *certain* game.
I didn't write Kid's dialogue in character (I've never played Cross and I am going by the Chrono Wiki for her personality
I accidentally revealed something about plot or characters I shouldn't have (you might know what I mean when you read it)

Okay, it's midnight here, so I'm going to get some sleep. Leave comments like usual and good night!
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 25, 2012, 02:17:49 am
I just checked this out on a whim cause I haven't heard anything in a while and saw that you edited your last post instead of making a new post for Chapter four. Just so you know, I generally check new stuff by clicking those two links up top (unread posts and new replies) and when you edit a post that was already there, the new edit doesn't show up in those links (I think that's what most people on here are accustomed to, but I don't know how familiar everyone is with it).

So basically I just found out Chapter four exists today, lol, sorry. I need a break from schoolwork for a moment so I'll give you some opinion stuff in a little bit.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 25, 2012, 03:59:26 am
Just in the nick of time Bekkler! I was about to post this:

Quote
I don't know the rules on double posting, but oh well here I go.
Damn, nearly five days of silence? Where did you all go? I even slacked a lot on Chapter 5.
Speaking of, here it is!
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/8429026/5/Chrono_Relics
Hope it isn't too filler-like. It mostly looks into the pasts of the character and their feelings. Now, bad excuses time!
My brother let me play his unplayed copy of Pokemon Diamond, which I tend to play pokemon games for hours on end for a few days. I was mostly stuck on that and burned some midnight oil to write bits of the chapter, which my thoughts tended to flow better at that time, strangely enough. So here yo go, enjoy.
Now, the matter at hand.
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saw that you edited your last post instead of making a new post for Chapter four. Just so you know, I generally check new stuff by clicking those two links up top (unread posts and new replies) and when you edit a post that was already there, the new edit doesn't show up in those links
Mostly, I would have thought if you saw the redone Chapter 1, you would have posted. So I edited that post, assuming no one saw it yet.I almost suspected that came up, but ah well. You and I are here now and that's what matters.
So, sorry for the confusion and hope to hear feedback. Cheerio!
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: skylark on August 25, 2012, 12:23:10 pm
5 days? Phhht. That's nothing. Try a full week. Two weeks. A month, even.

Sometimes people have too much on their plate to post a reply, even if it's something as simple as 'good job'. Doesn't mean they don't read it, though.

Of course, I get why it's frustrating not to get comments. Since I restarted my Sea of Dreams project, I've only had two replies to the first post, then nothing. Hell, I've even modified the Trophy List to contain the trophies that should be hidden just to foster in some discussion.

Then again, aside from actually starting the first part of the script, I haven't really done anything yet to warrant any discussion.

My point is, don't get discouraged if you get a dry spell on comments or reviews.

And if anybody has the nerve to send you flames, use them to heat your stove. :P
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 25, 2012, 01:27:24 pm
I've been working on a fan game (link in my signature) for over two years now and haven't gotten any feedback at all because nobody's played it (because it's still in production/feedback from the demo doesn't count). It's got my heart and soul in it and only one other Compendium member has been working on the script with me (it's Boo!), he's literally the only other person who knows all the twists and the intent for the story, motivation of the characters and everything, and he and I came up with a lot of it together. We haven't released anything or given out our secrets or outlines or character charts or stat sheets or item lists or anything that's been written (though we will collect it all in a sort of Players' Guide/Ultimania/DevBible when we release the game), nor have we really released many graphics from the game (a lot of those I used in the demo were temporary prototypes and there are a LOT of new graphics) or any of the music (it's a custom soundtrack, in fact 100% of it is so brand new that it has never been heard outside the team).

And it's all for one reason (and a web of smaller, related reasons). We know what we're making, we know how big it is, and we know how we need to deliver it so as not to ruin any of the secrets and twists and crazy conclusions we came to. Here's the kicker though: I'm doing it for myself. I don't care if half the fan base hates the game when it's done. I'll love it, I know at least my team has faith in me and confidence in our stuff, enough that we're all working on it without getting any kind of money at all.

I've been in a band about the same length of time. We have about two albums' worth of all original material. We play shows and practice a lot and I write all the foundation music and the lyrics. I get little to no credit for that, even from my own bandmates, and that's the way it's always been. I'm busy most of the time, I'm involved in a lot of projects, but those are my big two, and until I graduate school(my number one priority) everything else is on hiatus. Even though I might get more praise for some things, the bachelors degree, the band and the game are what are important to me. They're what I want to look back at when I'm older and be able to say "Damn, I actually accomplished a lot". It's not for the praise, or even for the criticism. I know that I can do it, so I won't stop until I've done it.

In short, I don't always agree with Skylark, but when I do, it's when he gives thoughtful comments like that. Five days isn't long. High school will end and when you get out nobody will care about it and life goes on (AND it just gets better as you get older! ...so far.).  Sorry if this is all too off-topic. I'll keep myself on track next time, I promise.

I did scan through chapter 4, though I was confused when Kid showed up and how easy it was for Lucca to get out of the prison considering how formidable the foes were just a second ago at her home. Also bringing Kid into the picture makes me question some stuff. When is this supposed to take place? Before or after Chrono Cross? In an alternate or regular timeline? I'll have to re-read a bit, and might as well go back to chapter 1 since you changed a lot apparently. More soon, including things I liked. :P
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 25, 2012, 02:37:13 pm
Hm... Alright. I had a bit of a feeling that five days wasn't that much. I guess I'm one of those people who likes encouragement to keep going. It's especially important for this, since this is going to be the biggest work I've ever done, fan or not. Since I get what you both are saying, I will also keep going, because I love how this story will turn out with all the plot twists and whatnot.
Maybe it was too confusing, but the beginning paragraphs of the story indirectly said that this is after Cross. As for the time line thing, who really knows what canonical would be after the events of Cross? Also, pertaining to the beginning paragraphs, my theory is that countless time lines exist for countless universes. This story is looking at one of these time lines for the Chronoverse. I'm kind of putting ideas here that I call deep, but then again, let the reader interpret as they want.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 25, 2012, 04:11:48 pm
Awesome! Just make sure your passion is what drives you and you can't go wrong!

I hadn't gotten that it is directly after Cross, I had interpreted it to be one of several possible timelines as a sort of alternative to the events of Cross. So this is your take on the merged timeline after Cross, then?
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 25, 2012, 05:19:22 pm
That's exactly it. I couldn't say it any better myself.
Hm, I haven't even started chapter 6 yet. I've had minor versions of writer's block all throughout writing. Sometimes I'm bored of it, other times I'm filled with ideas. I hope I can hear from you about chapters 4 and 5 until then. Hopefully, it will be up in three days. This also may be the last time for the relatively fast updates, since school starts on the 4th for me.
First, good bye party for my friend. Then, work on Chapter 6. *PSI Farewell*
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 30, 2012, 06:08:33 am
Okay, I have some feedback for the whole thing and I'll start at the beginning. Generally, what it keeps coming back to is I'd like to see more (in the earlier chapters).
Specifically, I have some ideas for what to elaborate on in each chapter.

In Chapter 1 Talzar has a book, but where did he get it? Again, I'd like to see this journey in my mind, maybe he went to great lengths to please his leader as a last-ditch effort to save his own life? Maybe there isn't even dialogue and we're just following and seeing his actions, Indiana-Jones-style? He crosses a rickety bridge and climbs a mountain and kills a big snake and burns some cobwebs and solves a puzzle and finally gets his hands on this guarded text with all the answers he needs, a real victory for him. Something like this would allow us to get to know Talzar a bit and doesn't spoil anything with Serpedes.

In Chapter 2 I like that Cassander's father forces him to take sword-fighting lessons, but I don't like that he just says so. Again, the chapter could easily open with him in a lesson, perhaps bored with his instructor, and after besting him with a clever trick, he makes his escape from the castle where the current story resumes. Again, it would delve into his character a bit before seeing his interactions. Alternatively, you could show a day in Talia's life prior to everything going crazy, with her waking up to the shouts of a bunch of kids in the orphanage, having to step over toys and trinkets and inventions and interact with robots and things in the house, and eventually she leaves and spots Cassander and again, the story resumes. Either way it would help establish that one of these characters is the main protagonist with whom we'll be spending the majority of our time in the story. (Hint: if you started with one of them waking up, you can use the "FirstName. FirstName! Good morning, FirstName." template set by the two games for a nice thematic tie-in.)
Some parts of the conversation felt rather expository and gave away too much information that the characters wouldn't really talk about. Most of it was rather natural, though, and the two are believable friends and somewhat interesting characters. If I were you, though, I'd add some kind of unfulfilled love element between the two and/or some kind of personality quirks for each that can be seen as a negative trait, to keep them from being "perfect little mary sue" type of characters. Maybe Talia is embarrassed by her mother and feels inadequate mentally because she can't match up to Lucca's genius, and maybe Cassander has horrible stage freight and prefers to go unnoticed, and as such he feels unworthy of being the future king. I mean, they both have a lot to live up to, and their lives, though at peace, probably aren't always easy. That should be acknowledged somehow in a way that can be overcome in a character arc.

In Chapter 3 mere soldiers overwhelm the legacy characters, as previously mentioned. However, in Chapter 1 Serpedes' soldiers seemed to be ghosts or lost souls or something like that, perhaps their ghastly qualities could be emphasized more? Perhaps you could describe them materializing like a solid coming from air and skipping the liquid phase. If they are undead that brings a relatively useful "unkillable" enemy to the playing field that could believably take on said heroes, but make sure to give them a weakness or you have enemies that you have to deal with in the story later that are still unkillable.
Also, Lucca seems to have a lot of precognitive knowledge of her own imminent doom and that's not really explained. I'd like to know what gave her the idea that "it's all happening again" etc.

In Chapter 4 I still don't get why Kid can just waltz in, or why she's really there(from a storytelling perspective). I don't mind her being there but why didn't Talia mention her earlier? Why not use Talia instead? Where is Talia? The question is asked, so the answer had better be good when we find out, for the sake of the story. I don't mind what's actually happening, I just have questions that could be answered here.

Chapter 5 is pretty awesome, I like that Serge and Kid are together, it's a well done flashback and fills some holes nicely. I also like that the narrative splits and gets creative, and finally, I am enjoying the new, longer length with the most recent addition.

These are mostly just ideas and questions to help you, though I admit I may have rambled a bit and gotten commenty, as I was re-reading while typing to make sure I was all caught up. Hope some of it helps! Keep writing.

One last thing, you could always set up a Google Doc version, where it's all in one document and you just post the link and let others view but not edit it. That way you could format it however you wanted rather easily without the problems of ff.net and even include a table of contents as the first page that linked to the chapters, or whatever you want to do with it. Just a suggestion for a free alternative method of storing and sharing stuff without having to actually download anything new.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Lennis on August 30, 2012, 09:48:49 pm
One last thing, you could always set up a Google Doc version, where it's all in one document and you just post the link and let others view but not edit it. That way you could format it however you wanted rather easily without the problems of ff.net and even include a table of contents as the first page that linked to the chapters, or whatever you want to do with it. Just a suggestion for a free alternative method of storing and sharing stuff without having to actually download anything new.

How do you set up something like that?  That might sound like a stupid thing to ask, but I really don't know much about computer programs aside from games.  I'm looking for a way to get my own material into a format that people will actually read.  No one seems inclined to download my PDF's anymore.  I know they're big files, but...

More to the point of this thread (Grace's story), I would like to add that writing this story solely for fans of Chrono Trigger is a way to dig yourself into narrative traps that are hard to extricate yourself from.  If you write this story for people who are completely unfamiliar with the universe, you are more likely to build a more solid narrative foundation for your tale.  In other words, write it for everybody.  Chrono Trigger fans won't find that tiresome if it's approached the right way.  The #1 rule to keep in mind here is "show, not tell".  No one likes to see the dreaded WoT (wall of text) to explain what happened in this world years earlier if it's not in context to what's happening in the moment, and then only in easily digestible chunks.  On that, I use the 1/4 rule: if an explanation for something that happened outside of the moment runs longer than 1/4 of a page (single spaced), you should consider revising the passage and mention only the most relevant data -  saving what's left to be explained at some future point in the chapter, or in a later chapter if the subject should come up again.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on August 30, 2012, 11:12:41 pm
This video explains the basics really well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMqdex3KDQM


Or here's a quick tutorial by me (in a new thread so as not to fill up this one with off-topicness):
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,9889.0.html
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on August 31, 2012, 04:26:02 am
Alright, both of you I will reply to by sections.
Mr Bekkler
Alright, responses to your comments, possibly some going to be "I'm going to fix that sometime later"

Chapter 1: Possibly I failed at implied meanings, but it's just a history book. Those shouldn't be anything "rare" or "sacred" and can be found in whatever schools or stores, and it wouldn't be an interesting read to hear about a villain going to the supermarket.
More about it: They have been studying the story in that book about Crono Co.'s adventures and some of Cross, which is partly where they know it. The other part? That's about that "major spoiler" I was talking about. I already did some foreshadowing at the end of Chapter 4, hopefully it was done at least decently.

Chapter 2: I see your point with a lot of this. Maybe I will add some intro to how Talia and Cassander got out. Then again, we never saw any cut scene of Marle escaping the castle to literally bump into her fate. But yeah, I'm going to fix that sometime la- *shot*
Also, may you provide some examples where you say it is too expository?

Chapter 3: Trapped soul soldiers aren't really something new. The fact that they are in numbers of thousands is what adds to the element of the heroes being overwhelmed, let alone that they have 20 year rusty skills. I didn't add them being able to materialize places for 1: They are trapped in fake bodies and being able to do that would imply a way to escape if possible. and 2: A previous comment by Lennis who said they "seem to come out of nowhere" and made the enemy seem to have powers they actually don't have.
Lucca's precognition, remember that Crono and Marle also had that feeling. It comes from the magic they possess (said explicitly by Talia in Chapter 2, I believe). It is a very vague sense of warning. To compare, in Star Wars Episode IV, where after Alderaan got blown up, Obi-wan felt it as, approximate quote, "It feels like millions of voices just cried out in terror." it's a vague statement, but you know it's not something good.

Chapter 4: I don't know where I could put Talia mentioning Kid. The other part I feel is not necessary to reply to.

Chapter 5: By me reading this, I assume you wrote each review as you read the chapters, so Kid appearing in the story has hopefully been answered. The chapter mostly felt like filler because it was to fill in holes that I left in the story (though I think some can be left purposefully for interpretation by readers, much like in Trigger about Crono's dad.)

Lennis
The post that I started this thread with said I have written stories before, but it was just fanfiction I am new to. So, I am already used to introducing a new universe to unfamiliar readers. If you are more suggesting hat I change the story to such a thing, then that's a whole different bottle of tonic.

Additional Notes
I've been extra busy this week. This is also been accompanied by some writer's block, leading to the fact I am horribly slacking on Chapter 6. I don't even have the first page done, for the love of Schala! I am going to be free for the whole day until this Tuesday, where I will officially start high school and naturally, be hard pressed for time. I am considering posting what I have so far to this topic in a quote, so tell me if you think I should.
Now, let's see how many days this topic will lay dead before someone brings it back to life.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on September 01, 2012, 03:48:17 am
Chapter 1: Possibly I failed at implied meanings, but it's just a history book. Those shouldn't be anything "rare" or "sacred" and can be found in whatever schools or stores, and it wouldn't be an interesting read to hear about a villain going to the supermarket.
More about it: They have been studying the story in that book about Crono Co.'s adventures and some of Cross, which is partly where they know it. The other part? That's about that "major spoiler" I was talking about. I already did some foreshadowing at the end of Chapter 4, hopefully it was done at least decently.
I didn't get that implication in the text. Okay so the book's not a big deal, then why is it the centerpiece of the chapter? If the book is a common history book, and the common history of the Chrono planet includes the CT and CC "Heroes of Time" stories, why is Talzar using it at all? Shouldn't Serpedes know all this information Talzar is telling him? I feel like saying that the book is common and can be found anywhere is kind of an excuse for not writing (or at least thinking) more.

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Chapter 2: I see your point with a lot of this. Maybe I will add some intro to how Talia and Cassander got out. Then again, we never saw any cut scene of Marle escaping the castle to literally bump into her fate.
No, but we did see Crono waking up, which is why I suggested you pick one of the two to be the "main" character and show them waking up to mimic the beginning of the game, then quickly switch to show how that character's life is quite different than what we've seen before, and finally segue into the two friends meeting as you currently have it.


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Also, may you provide some examples where you say it is too expository?

The bold parts:

-She decided to begin with, "My mom. I don't know why, but she seems to be more... distant each day. Not even dad knows what it is. It seems all I hear her say is 'It's going to happen all over again. There's no way it can. It will be soon, but we're not ready.' Even Cyrus is catching on."

-"Only bits and pieces. About two days ago, I was walking through the corridors when I heard them in the throne room. I managed to listen in behind the thrones. Mom said that she had a feeling that the peace here in Guardia wasn't going to last. It was the same feeling when they were on their adventures. She even mentioned it felt like they were targeting one of them. In fact, it was to the point where she mentioned the feeling when they were in Zeal Kingdom..." Cassander's words began to slow down."And, when the Queen was able to awaken Lavos... And when... when dad..."

-After he said that, he realized how much he really did want to have an adventure like his parents did. Thank God that dad ordered I get sword fighting lessons, I might actually get to use them now!" He was in the middle of his happy thoughts until he was abruptly pulled out. Talia was holding her head before she doubled over where she was sitting.

Consider these instead:

-She decided to begin with, "My mom. I don't know why, but she seems to be more... distant each day. Even Cyrus is catching on."

-"Only bits and pieces. About two days ago, I was walking through the corridors when I heard them in the throne room. I managed to listen in behind the thrones. Mom said that she had a feeling that the peace wasn't going to last. In fact, it was to the point where she mentioned Lavos... And when... when dad..."

-After he said that, he realized how much he really did want to have an adventure like his parents did. He was in the middle of his happy thoughts until he was abruptly pulled out by a distant shriek. Talia grabbed at her head and lost her balance where she was sitting.

Quote
Chapter 3: Trapped soul soldiers aren't really something new. The fact that they are in numbers of thousands is what adds to the element of the heroes being overwhelmed, let alone that they have 20 year rusty skills. I didn't add them being able to materialize places for 1: They are trapped in fake bodies and being able to do that would imply a way to escape if possible. and 2: A previous comment by Lennis who said they "seem to come out of nowhere" and made the enemy seem to have powers they actually don't have.
So are they undead or regular or what? What does trapped soul mean? If they aren't coming out of nowhere and they're regular soldiers how is it that nobody sees them coming?

Quote
Lucca's precognition, remember that Crono and Marle also had that feeling. It comes from the magic they possess (said explicitly by Talia in Chapter 2, I believe). It is a very vague sense of warning. To compare, in Star Wars Episode IV, where after Alderaan got blown up, Obi-wan felt it as, approximate quote, "It feels like millions of voices just cried out in terror." it's a vague statement, but you know it's not something good.
The problem with that is that's exactly like Magus' Black Wind. So I'd recommend having them just call it that, and have a character mention that it's a developing thing, "just like Janus".

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Chapter 4: ...The other part I feel is not necessary to reply to.
If you're not interested in replying in full or changing what you've written, then why ask for critique and feedback? Sorry for playing devil's advocate, not sorry for the long post.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on September 01, 2012, 04:29:51 pm
I feel like saying that the book is common and can be found anywhere is kind of an excuse for not writing (or at least thinking) more.
Err... I don't really know now. I try to think about those kinds of things, but I'm not sure what I could use to revise that.


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Consider these instead:
Hm... I'll look over them, do any edits I find to fit, and put them in soon.
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So are they undead or regular or what? What does trapped soul mean? If they aren't coming out of nowhere and they're regular soldiers how is it that nobody sees them coming?
Wow, I think I am being a little too vague with these kinds of things. Trapped soul soldiers, like I have here, are souls that have been brought out of rest by dark spells and forced back into mortal bodies to serve the one who cast such spells. I can already see how this will lead to other "underpowered" questions.
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The problem with that is that's exactly like Magus' Black Wind. So I'd recommend having them just call it that, and have a character mention that it's a developing thing, "just like Janus".
Didn't think of it that way. I'll do that sometime.
Quote
If you're not interested in replying in full or changing what you've written, then why ask for critique and feedback? Sorry for playing devil's advocate, not sorry for the long post.
Oohhh... *tugs shirt collar* This was really bad phrasing on my part. What I meant was that the other part was answered in the Chapter 5 response. And I do want to change parts of this story, like I already have (hence completely remade Chapter 1) I just am distracted by other things, the s-word that you all will get mad at me if i say it again, and something I sure hope is just writer's block. That, being I have wavering interest in continuing this story. To reassure, it wasn't anything you said; it's just me. Also, no worries, I like long posts. ;)

Also, I would still like to hear about the Chapter 6 preview thing. I'm currently experimenting with Cyrus's personality and I am not exactly satisfied with it. I just kind of want some advice on it before I make a whole chapter with it. Furthermore, I want to apologize if it seems like I don't care much about this whole thing. Truth is, I do and I take all advice really seriously, but it's something I can't really put into text on a topic post. I'm really sorry for any indifference...  :(
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Lennis on September 01, 2012, 05:24:36 pm
Lennis
The post that I started this thread with said I have written stories before, but it was just fanfiction I am new to. So, I am already used to introducing a new universe to unfamiliar readers. If you are more suggesting hat I change the story to such a thing, then that's a whole different bottle of tonic.

I am suggesting you make that change.  It's a mistake to think you can skimp on foundational issues just because you are writing for a specific audience.  Most writers of fan-fiction do just that, and I don't think it is therefore coincidental that most fan-fiction is crap.  The difference between good fiction and good fan-fiction is... nothing.  They both have the same rules for narrative excellence.  A manuscript is either good or it isn't.  Any credible teacher of creative writing would say as much.

If you are already experienced at introducing new universes, then you are already several legs up on 99% of the other writers in your age group.  Why limit yourself just because it's fan fiction?  Show everyone what you're really made of and humiliate your competition.
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Mr Bekkler on September 01, 2012, 07:31:32 pm
I feel like saying that the book is common and can be found anywhere is kind of an excuse for not writing (or at least thinking) more.
Err... I don't really know now. I try to think about those kinds of things, but I'm not sure what I could use to revise that.
If you don't want an elaborate backstory for how rare the book is and how it came to be and how it's secretly one of the Relics or something, then you could easily just have Serpedes say something like "Oh yes, it's so obvious! Lucca! Of course!" or "How could it have slipped my mind, Lucca, the inventor was one of the Heroes of Time! Talzar, this is why you're the chief scholar! You take care of the details while I plan the big picture." Or something like that to acknowledge that it's supposed to be common information. That's a quick fix. I'm not trying to write your story for you, but I do encourage you to cover as many little plot holes as possible. And there really aren't that many, all things considered, so don't get downtrodden.

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Wow, I think I am being a little too vague with these kinds of things. Trapped soul soldiers, like I have here, are souls that have been brought out of rest by dark spells and forced back into mortal bodies to serve the one who cast such spells. I can already see how this will lead to other "underpowered" questions.
So they're like not-immortal zombies? That doesn't lead to many other questions, it actually answers them quite well. You should put the description you have here into the actual story, it would be quite helpful, and it's pretty cool. Crono&Co haven't faced zombies before, not exactly, anyway. They've faced Mystics and walking skeletons but reanimated bodies are new to them, so the challenge is more believable. Maybe they don't know the enemies can be taken down, and the horde overtakes them slowly. I would recommend that the enemy tells the heroes that they're reanimated and follow only him, and he could even lie and say they're immortal to intimidate the good guys.


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Oohhh... *tugs shirt collar* This was really bad phrasing on my part. What I meant was that the other part was answered in the Chapter 5 response. And I do want to change parts of this story, like I already have (hence completely remade Chapter 1) I just am distracted by other things, the s-word that you all will get mad at me if i say it again, and something I sure hope is just writer's block. That, being I have wavering interest in continuing this story. To reassure, it wasn't anything you said; it's just me. Also, no worries, I like long posts. ;)

Also, I would still like to hear about the Chapter 6 preview thing. I'm currently experimenting with Cyrus's personality and I am not exactly satisfied with it. I just kind of want some advice on it before I make a whole chapter with it. Furthermore, I want to apologize if it seems like I don't care much about this whole thing. Truth is, I do and I take all advice really seriously, but it's something I can't really put into text on a topic post. I'm really sorry for any indifference...  :(
Just don't say you're quitting. Keep working even if it's slow, and even if you have to just write something you don't like to move on and get to something you enjoy writing. You can always rewrite but you can't get there until it's written. When it's done, it's done. Best advice I got. And where can the Chapter 6 preview thing be found?
Title: Re: Chrono Relics
Post by: Grace Ashtear on September 01, 2012, 10:44:02 pm
And where can the Chapter 6 preview thing be found?
Right here.
A few notes:
I think I said before, but Cyrus's personality is experimental. It is very subject to change.
This takes place the morning after Chapter 5.
I am genarlly the least satisfied with this chapter at the moment with the direction it is going. This is where the advice comes in.
It cuts off very abruptly because this is what I have typed up so far.
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   Ever since that angst-filled evening, where after Talia was knocked unconscious and she woke up in her own bed, she seemed to do nothing but lock herself in her room with her books or walk out to town. Since Lucca's disappearance, everyone at the orphanage was usually too depressed to eat much. Glenn seemed to be the worst, who would stay in his room practicing sword skills more than ever, and would talk about nothing but setting off soon to avenge his wife.
    In spite of the gloom that veiled the orphanage, Talia grabbed some money and was walking over to the market with her younger brother Cyrus. The crown of his head came up to her shoulder. In that respect, he was almost like a shorter copy of his father. He had his tousled green hair, the golden eyes, and quite a strong build. The only things you could see from his mother was his face had a more gentle look to it and he was quite smart, though he preferred the art of broadswords. He also needed to wear glasses, but avoided it whenever possible. Because of the recent events, neither of his parents were scolding him for not wearing them. In all truth, he missed it.
   The walk to the market was mostly silent. It wasn't until the moderately sized building was on the horizon that someone spoke up. It was Cyrus. “Talia, you've been a little weird, even more weird than lately. Is something up?”
Talia sighed. “Not really. It's just... I have to go with dad.”
Cyrus frowned at this statement. “What? What do you mean, 'go with him'? You don't actually mean, leave, do you?”
It was Talia's turn to frown, though for a different reason. “Just think about it Cyrus. I told you what happened when you were at Marron and Kells's house. We can't just lay around doing nothing while mom is in the hands of some psychopath sorcerer. Do you want her dead... again? She's already died once in an alternate time line, you know. And this time, she has dad, the current Guardian rulers, and us at stake. We need to fight back with whatever strength we have left. This time, however, we can be by our parents for whatever this is.”
Indeed, Cyrus had to think about it.  He always enjoyed the use of his father's swords, along with the occasional hammer, but also yearned for a time to use them for real. This time, he would fight for his mother. Apart from that, knowing her technological contributions to the kingdom was more than enough of a reason to find her.
To wrap it all up, he replied quietly and gradually grew louder. “Yeah, you're right. We need to fight back. Maybe we can get King Crono to send troops. For once, I regret visiting Kells's house. Isn't his dad Fritz, that Crono saved from the guillotine? To think that Crono went from being on the execution block to king...”
Talia looked up and was grateful for a reason to interrupt her brother's characteristic rambling. “Hey, we're here!” Cyrus looked up at her words, and certainly enough, they were in front of the market that he was forced to walk to. Naturally, he didn't mind too much since it was run by Fritz.