Chrono Compendium

Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: NeroBz on July 26, 2012, 08:54:23 pm

Title: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: NeroBz on July 26, 2012, 08:54:23 pm
When Lucca come across Crono in Middle Ages, she makes an insinuation that Queen Leene will be assassinated. But until no there considered that Marle vanishes while Leene is alive. Therefore Marle only shouldn't is present in Middle Ages, and subsequent events make more sense.
Due conflict between Magus and Guardia, the Leene's kidnapping ensures triumph of Mystics. It influences the object of incident in Leene Square. Thus without sentimental value, for is lost the historic value, Marle would haven't worry so much about her pendant. Until in another timeline, possibly since the start she is married with Crono, who receives the pendant. Since the start because by connection with Crono's dream after defeat Magus on Middle Ages. And as for Marle mention a dark place when reappears, I suppose it is a present age dominated by the mystics. After all, must consider that Leene is fine when Marle vanishes, and that Marle would don't uses machine of Lucca.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: utunnels on July 28, 2012, 12:38:57 am
I'm wondering, what if Marle doesn't disappear? Maybe they just can't take Marle home because everyone in Mid Age mistakes her for the queen, perhaps Crono and Lucca will be treated as terrorists or psychos or whatever. Will Marle become her own ancestor in this case?


***
Edit*


Though that means they fails to know the real queen was kidnapped.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Manly Man on July 28, 2012, 08:07:57 pm
I remember hearing it theorized at some point that the one responsible for Marle's disappearance was a gambit on The Entity's part. With the disappearance (cosmic-level kidnapping) of Marle came the drive for the group to 'fix' what went wrong, and so with their experience after they saved Marle, they were similarly motivated when they happened upon the portal to the future to go and stop what was going to destroy the world in the distant future.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Acacia Sgt on July 29, 2012, 01:12:20 pm
Though that means they fails to know the real queen was kidnapped.

I'm not sure on that. The news about the Queen's kidnapping was talked about through all of Guardia. Even if Marle hadn't disappeared the trio would still realize she still is in danger since the search party got called off when they found Marle.

Lucca can still bring up her ''Grandfather Paradox'' stuff to urge them to do something about it, and I'm sure Marle would motivate them anyway, as it's her ancestor who is in danger. And even at this point they know history can suffer a big change if she isn't found in time anyway.

I could see that situation branching off into two possible outcomes that wouldn't impact even the flow of the original game...

1) They explain the mix-up to the King. They are believed and the search continues. However, they decide to keep the ruse for the sake of the citizenry or something, so Marle has to stay behind while Crono and Lucca agree to help in the search. They reach the Cathedral and stuff goes on as per the game.

Or...

2) They don't believe them, or they decide to don't tell. Either way Marle stays behind to keep the ruse while Crono and Lucca take matters on their own had. And again they reach the Cathedral and stuff foes on as per the game.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: NeroBz on July 29, 2012, 07:10:29 pm
Manly Man, agreeing with Eske, who ponder about Marle too, I don't believe that this is an exception to the rule. The fact is that the Queen isn't dead when Marle disappears and Marle isn't out from time because remember the lenght of herself disappearance. For me, exists a clearer solution if recognize that inference of Lucca may also be rash. Otherwise, merely she don't not know Crono and so never climb on machine in Leene Square. As I can be is uncertain is about where it was sent.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: utunnels on July 29, 2012, 09:18:02 pm

I remember hearing it theorized at some point that the one responsible for Marle's disappearance was a gambit on The Entity's part.
I think I once mentioned that.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6596.msg151625.html#msg151625

Otherwise it is quite similar to the plot from Back to the Future, the protagonist notices himself is fading away from the photograph.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Lennis on July 30, 2012, 12:28:51 am
I actually take a whole new angle to the Marle question in my Chrono Trigger novel, something that will be explained in full in an upcoming chapter.

While the search for the real Queen Lenne being called off is certainly a factor, that is not the reason why Leene is suddenly destined to die and Marle subsequently disappears.  What happens is that Marle's sudden appearance in the middle ages throws a wrench into Yakra's plans for the Kingdom.  Yakra's plan is to hold the Queen captive for a time while the King (Aldren) makes a complete shambles of things in the attempt to find her.  When the situation in Guardia - specifically Truce Province - reaches its most chaotic point, Yakra intends to release Queen Leene to trigger a bitter succession battle for the throne, which would greatly weaken the Kingdom and make it that much easier for the Mystics to win the war.  When Marle suddenly shows up, that plan is completely thrown out the window.

The surprising twist is that Yakra believes that the Queen's double is actually another Mystic Lord like himself, and is deliberately trying to sabotage his efforts for his own nefarious purposes.  Yakra's greatest fear is that there might be a spy among his followers that would free the real Queen at the same time that the false Queen is in the castle, suddenly exposing the fact that the Mystics can assume human form with their magic, thus putting Yakra himself - in the guise of Chancellor Goran - and his entire operation in great peril.  To prevent this situation from coming about, Yakra decides that Queen Leene has to die to cut his losses.

The very moment when Yakra makes this decision is when Marle disappears.  His intent is enough to effect reality as far as Marle's existence is concerned, partly because Crono and Lucca (and everyone else) are unaware of what has happened.  In fact, the entire future of the year 1000 is effectively erased when Yakra makes his decision.  The reason why Crono and Lucca do not disappear with the obliteration of their timeline is because they are destined (or potentially destined) to figure out what has happened to the real Queen Leene and rescue her before she is killed.  (I don't use the time-traveler's immunity device here.)  But Marle doesn't actually return to existence until the moment when Queen Leene's safety is fully assured.  Crono and Lucca's intent is not enough.  While this brings up questions of causality and intent, and even predestination, I prefer to present things in a way where the choices of our heroes matter, and that they can actually fail if they make a bad choice or are not skilled enough to survive the dangers they face.

The only part of all this where the "entity" might play a role is in the fact that Marle and Leene are genetically identical (Marle is 16 and Leene is 20, but are otherwise the same) despite not being the same person and not being actual twins.  The odds of two members of the same family separated by 400 years looking exactly the same, as Lucca points out, are astronomical; basically impossible.

I don't think any time-traveling plot is 100% solid and unassailable.  Temporal mechanics is really tough stuff.  All I can do is write an interesting yarn and hope that readers like it enough to continue reading.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: NeroBz on July 31, 2012, 02:36:06 pm
Good observation about Yakra. Another detail that I see now, by you say, is regarding the other Queen's news are spread in Truce, affecting him decisions. Nevertheless, Marle was alive during all time, retaining memory of a dark place. I still think she don't go up machine.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Eske on August 20, 2012, 12:13:49 am
Well, I've said my peace on this matter in the very old thread I posted before (at least for now) - but I'm glad people are still asking the big questions about events in the Cronoverse.  It seems like, for awhile, that all vanished.  Keep it up guys!  =)
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: idioticidioms on August 26, 2012, 04:23:38 pm
Here's the thing and they explain it in the game if you pay attention:

If they had rescued Marle without rescuing Queen Leene; which they would have done if Marle had not disappeared; Marle still would have disappeared because he ancestor; Queen Leene; would have been killed or neutralized and it would have prevented her bloodline from existing in the present day.

Therefore, Marle's disappearance at that point is not paradox; but is in fact the world reaching out to keep the balance of the time line in check. The paradox would have been if they had brought Marle back without saving Queen Leene; because then Marle would exist in an impossible set of circumstances.

Without Crono's sword skills matched with Glenn's; Guardia would not have bested Yakra; if they even knew where to begin. Glenn obviously did, but would have been unable to save her on his own. You know he would have tried on his own anyway; given his character.

Also, Lennis makes a good point, too. I mean, who's to say that Leene wouldn't have been saved if Marle had never arrived there. Due to Marle's arrival; it threw Yakra off and he had to react differently than he would have otherwise. It could be said that Queen Leene's demise would have been hastened by it, and considering that Yakra had her in his back room with him when you show up to stomp his ass into the curb; I'd say that's pretty much the truth of it.

Combined all together, it makes perfect sense and sets the precedent for their ability to change events in the world by changing the past; it began their momentum through everything else to finally getting rid of Lavos.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: utunnels on August 27, 2012, 02:26:36 am
There may be lots of theories, but you may have noticed some strange or unexplained things.

Where does Marle go after the disappearance.

Why the disappearance happens shortly after Lucca arrives, instead of any other time, fishy.

Marle doesn't simply 'disappears', the effect looks like some kind of magic. And as she explains, she feels she's being torn apart, weird.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: idioticidioms on August 27, 2012, 02:46:35 am
There may be lots of theories, but you may have noticed some strange or unexplained things.

Where does Marle go after the disappearance.

Why the disappearance happens shortly after Lucca arrives, instead of any other time, fishy.

Marle doesn't simply 'disappears', the effect looks like some kind of magic. And as she explains, she feels she's being torn apart, weird.

Where do people go when they die? Where do people go if they never even existed at all? What do they retain from not existing if they existed beforehand and then existed again after? What do you feel or experience during such a thing as suddenly not existing in the world? Freud said it best when he said that some times; rarely; things are exactly what they seem. It was the developers honest effort to bring to life an impossible thing; and I thought they did quite well with it.

You say it's fishy that it happens so shortly after Lucca arrives; but it's also shortly after Marle arrives in 600 A.D. and shortly after Crono arrives. In fact, if you recall, you can have a minor conversation with the Yakra-impersonated Chancellor that is kind of odd and he then leaves the Castle. The time it takes for you to find Marle, have your conversation with her and watch her disappear and then go downstairs to find Lucca is about the time it would take Yakra to make his decision to just get rid of Leene altogether and move from Guardia Castle to the Cathedral with you right on his heels.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Eske on August 27, 2012, 10:47:58 pm
His intent is enough to effect reality as far as Marle's existence is concerned, partly because Crono and Lucca (and everyone else) are unaware of what has happened.  In fact, the entire future of the year 1000 is effectively erased when Yakra makes his decision.  The reason why Crono and Lucca do not disappear with the obliteration of their timeline is because they are destined (or potentially destined) to figure out what has happened to the real Queen Leene and rescue her before she is killed.  (I don't use the time-traveler's immunity device here.)  But Marle doesn't actually return to existence until the moment when Queen Leene's safety is fully assured.  Crono and Lucca's intent is not enough.  While this brings up questions of causality and intent, and even predestination, I prefer to present things in a way where the choices of our heroes matter, and that they can actually fail if they make a bad choice or are not skilled enough to survive the dangers they face.


I think the difference between Yakra's intent to kill the Queen and Crono's intent to save the Queen is that Yakra actually knows where she is and is reasonably able to kill her - Crono and Lucca might intend to save the Queen, but they don't know where she is nor do they have the battlepower to do so without Frog's involvement.  So, I could understand if Yakra's intent is the deciding factor for Marle's existence but Crono and Lucca's "let's save her, yay!" attitude isn't enough to change anything until the Queen makes it back safely.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: utunnels on August 28, 2012, 02:15:25 am
... but it's also shortly after Marle arrives in 600 A.D. and shortly after Crono arrives...
Yeah you are right. Perhaps the turning point is Yakra's decision, that makes more sense.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: EgyLynx on August 28, 2012, 10:37:38 am
 :oops:

... soo less i think...

Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: NeroBz on August 31, 2012, 07:03:49 pm
And what this dark zone that Marle leave and mentions? Would somewhere existing in the game serie?
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: idioticidioms on August 31, 2012, 08:50:21 pm
And what this dark zone that Marle leave and mentions? Would somewhere existing in the game serie?

Language barriers are a pain in the ass...

For all intents and purposes; Marle died. Well, not exactly 'died'. She ceased to exist entirely. The dark place she mentions is not a place you can reach in the game. It's not at all to be confused with death or what happens when you die. Think of it more as a limbo between worlds; like a Pocket Dimension, but not: The world we all exist in and carry on and the preternatural world that it's assumed we go to when we die. When Marle enters that place; she is neither alive or dead. She does not exist and at the same time must exist in that place to retain what little bit she does. Her consciousness is there; stored for when she does exist. It could probably be argued that where she went to is like a cold-storage for souls/consciousness; where they await the day that they will be given a chance to exist; though until they do exist, they have nothing to base what they experience in that state of non-existance and many won't remember it after being born and starting their existence. It could be argued; at that point; that Marle remembers it more because she existed and then entered that state of non-existence before reverting back to existing.

Did that make sense?
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Manly Man on September 01, 2012, 03:47:11 am
I honestly thought that it was simply a spot where The Entity had pulled her, since, apparently, going through Gates grants you Time Traveler's Immunity, so there would have been another hand in her disappearance. Things being interpreted by Crono and Lucca as they were, they would have thought it was the cease-to-exist thing, which would provide motivation for them to tinker with time further.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: idioticidioms on September 01, 2012, 06:42:28 am
I honestly thought that it was simply a spot where The Entity had pulled her, since, apparently, going through Gates grants you Time Traveler's Immunity, so there would have been another hand in her disappearance. Things being interpreted by Crono and Lucca as they were, they would have thought it was the cease-to-exist thing, which would provide motivation for them to tinker with time further.

That's also possible.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: EgyLynx on September 01, 2012, 12:15:10 pm
but... that was only time at game where that happend?
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Manly Man on September 01, 2012, 02:06:29 pm
Yeah. You never see anybody else actually disappear as Marle did. Yes, many of them change, but apart from that one instance, nobody simply disappears. My thought is that The Entity takes her to the Darkness Beyond Time as a sort of haven where she is essentially untouchable by anything, save beings like the Time Devourer, who did not exist at that time.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Acacia Sgt on September 01, 2012, 02:42:29 pm
I've always seen it as an incentive to encourage changing the time line for Crono and co. for the eventual ''Vanquish Lavos'' gambit.

Since later on when they see the Day of Lavos video, when Marle is encouraging them to take action she brings up the 600 AD events and pointing out they can change history. It makes me wonder how much impact it would've been lost if they had seen the video had they just been sent to the future immediately during the Telepod incident, or returned from 600 AD without having taken an active part in changing it's course of events.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: idioticidioms on September 01, 2012, 03:59:15 pm
that's the thing; it's entirely up to perspective. If you believe it when people tell you something is impossible; you'll never find out if it truly is or not. If nobody ever tells you that something is impossible, you're more likely to accomplish it.

The illusion for them was thinking they had changed history when no change occurred whatsoever. There was only the illusion of change while events stayed the same. They had not yet picked up enough momentum in the time stream to be able to affect any actual change. That came later in the game. But the world; having chosen it's champions; decided it was in the best interests of everything to let them think they had so they would continue to completion.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: NeroBz on September 05, 2012, 08:14:01 pm
And what this dark zone that Marle leave and mentions? Would somewhere existing in the game serie?

Language barriers are a pain in the ass...


Sorry, is the first time that I discuss in another language. LOL X)

I respect your argument but I'm not sure about the inertia temporal. Chrono and Lucca are only in Middle Ages due to pendant's incident and without it there isn't subsequent events. Insomuch, this happening requires Marle in Leene's Square or leastwise the pendant.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: idioticidioms on September 05, 2012, 08:32:06 pm
And what this dark zone that Marle leave and mentions? Would somewhere existing in the game serie?

Language barriers are a pain in the ass...


Sorry, is the first time that I discuss in another language. LOL X)

I respect your argument but I'm not sure about the inertia temporal. Chrono and Lucca are only in Middle Ages due to pendant's incident and without it there isn't subsequent events. Insomuch, this happening requires Marle in Leene's Square or leastwise the pendant.

oh no; it's fine. I can actually understand you. I'm just not sure if everything I'm saying is transferring over.

Exactly; all three of them are only in the Middle Ages due to the pendant. Without Marle getting up on the Telepod and traveling through time; Leene would have eventually been saved. But, because she did; she caused the temporal dislocation that occurred when Yakra made up his mind to off Leene on the spot because she wasn't useful to him anymore. (Guardia had already found a replacement Leene.) It became their duty to save Leene because they wound up in that spot and if they had decided not to do so; they would have found themselves without Marle and without the backbone of their group and they would probably never have faced Lavos; though they most certainly would have made it back to their own time since Lucca had the gate key.

One could say that the planet; Gaia; planned everything to happen the way it did because it saw the potential in these individuals to defeat Lavos; and so Marle never actually died or ceased to exist in any sense of the word but merely had the illusion that she did so they would be more likely to see things through to the end. They changed the past and changed it back; they affected, in some small part, the future; because the future did change if even a little bit.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: EgyLynx on September 06, 2012, 01:30:56 am
So Planet where Crono is haw gaia and... ok.

Illusion... well what that Marle´s going to spieces?illusion?
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: idioticidioms on September 06, 2012, 05:17:15 am
Well, it was a stretch of imagination on my part considering the planet being referred to as 'Gaia' was a common theme in video games about that time.

I don't think she went to pieces because that would indicate she exploded. There was an explosion of sorts; but an explosion of lights; which symbolizes energy; which symbolizes that energy was used in the process somehow; which tends to lead to the belief that some other factor was involved; more-than-likely the planet; whatever you want to call it; seeing as how there is always mention of another entity being the root of the gates and since gates existed before Lavos fell from the Heavens (read: space), we can assume that it was a defense mechanism of the planet in anticipation of the calamity. Lot's of similarities to Final Fantasy 7 at that point; but I digress.

The illusion was that Marle ceased to exist at all and it's a very important illusion to weave for crono and crew.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Lennis on September 07, 2012, 01:34:45 am
Quote
...though they most certainly would have made it back to their own time since Lucca had the gate key.

And found their world completely changed, more than likely.  The elimination of Queen Leene from the timeline would have had a chain-reaction throughout history, not the least of which being Leene Square no longer being named after Leene.  It's an open question whether Crono and Lucca would even exist in the new future if they attempted to go back without repairing the past.  My view is that Crono and Lucca would have immediately disappeared from existence the moment they went back through the gate without rescuing Leene, since the only reason they still existed was because they were in a unique position to preserve history.  I suppose they might be protected by "time-travelers immunity" so long as they still had the capacity to return to the middle-ages and do what only they can do.  Temporal paradoxes are difficult to deal with, so I prefer the simpler approach of Crono and Lucca just disappearing if they choose to do nothing.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: utunnels on September 07, 2012, 02:14:01 am
So, what if Lucca didn't time travel? Would their era be changed nontheless?

Quote from: Lennis
My view is that Crono and Lucca would have immediately disappeared from existence the moment they went back through the gate without rescuing Leene, since the only reason they still existed was because they were in a unique position to preserve history.

That is fine, which means they (include Marle) have never come to exist. And history goes on normally as the new time line. Maybe the Entity will choose another hero if the author want to continue the story, hehe.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: NeroBz on September 07, 2012, 01:52:43 pm
That is fine, which means they (include Marle) have never come to exist. And history goes on normally as the new time line. Maybe the Entity will choose another hero if the author want to continue the story, hehe.

I agree too. If they obtain defect in any point of story, others would have been chosen.

Idioticidioms, thanks, I understand you and everyone too.

Crono and Marle bump up each other is evidently the start point of original timeline's breaking. Weight up the inquiring scene that both living with one another seemingly, after beating Magus. Dream or not, is possibly linked with the original timeline, even if Marle were is distanced from castle. Or just only searching her pendant, used by Crono to go Middle Ages. Plain the entrance to the past is located in both timelines. But decisions to modify the future depends of Marle on party.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: Lennis on September 11, 2012, 05:22:40 am
So, what if Lucca didn't time travel? Would their era be changed nontheless?

A good question.  It brings up the poem from Chrono Cross: "What was the start of all this?  When the cogs of fate begin to turn?  Perhaps it is impossible to grasp that answer now, From deep within the flow of time..."

If Marle was the root cause of history being changed, and everyone from her timeline would disappear if Leene was not rescued, then Marle would never exist to go back in time to muck up the middle-ages in the first place, effectively negating the change Marle caused.  But in order for Marle not to exist, Leene would have to die, which would not have happened had Marle not been mistaken for her, meaning that Marle would have to exist for Leene to die, thus resulting in Marle's disappearance from history, which is causally impossible.  This is a temporal paradox that really has no resolution except for Crono and Lucca to save Queen Leene's life and make the issue moot.  This is actually an important hint to what's really going on.  It might be the Entity's doing, but perhaps not in the way you expect.  We all look at time as a straight line.  What if it's something completely different?
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: utunnels on September 11, 2012, 06:30:43 am
Quote
This is a temporal paradox that really has no resolution except for Crono and Lucca to save Queen Leene's life and make the issue moot.... We all look at time as a straight line.  What if it's something completely different?
Well if that is true, then there are several other situations in which they would have messed up things. A direct example is Ayla, who is an ancestor of all the humans in 1000 AD (consider the ridiculously long time span), if they simple take her from 120...0 BC, the history is highly likely be changed.

That is why many feel Marle's paradox is special.


Edit*
---------------

So the Entity warns they in that special way (TTI is just a theory, which even a genius like Lucca can't be too sure about it at that time).
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: IHBP on October 21, 2012, 09:48:38 pm
I think the confusion results from the idea that Marle was rescued at the precise moment that Leene was supposed to have been.

But if you imagine that Leene was not supposed to have been rescued till the moment Marle disapears then you can assume its that precise moment that time was altered by Marle to jeopordize her own existence a clause obviously not covered by the TTI act
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: xcalibur on May 16, 2013, 07:36:13 pm
Clearly it is a paradox, since it contradicts Time Travelers Immunity. What should have happened was: Marle ends up in 600ad and the search for Leene is called off. You meet her then, and go back to 1000 ad to find that things got really screwed up - let's say Guardia is ruined. The team figures out that they have to go back and save Leene to restore the present.
This would've been consistent with the rest of the game, and been a very nice prologue to saving the ruined future.

My theory is that the Marle Paradox was a developer oversight. Multiple people worked on CT, and they had different visions. In particular, it really seems like the first part of the game was storyboarded before the rest.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: utunnels on May 16, 2013, 09:11:09 pm
It sounds like TTI was not their standard while developing. It is a time travel game anyway, not any sort of hard sf. It reminds me of Back to the Future, in which the protagonist finds himself fading away form his family photo because his mother falls in love with him instead of his father.
Title: Re: Marle Paradox, Simple Analysis
Post by: idioticidioms on June 15, 2013, 11:46:54 pm
Actually, all parts of the game, except for one, point to the fact that each major decision creates an alternate universe based on the choices made and the most possible of outcomes, which was the pre-concept for Chrono Cross.

They tried to make it look as if it was direct effect and that you could change the events of time to change the future of the world, but that's not what resulted from it, as shown in Chrono Cross. The team thinks that's the case, but then the team in CC is shown differently. That may not have been intended until after CT, which would make the point moot, but I'd like to think that they did think of that back then.

If we assume that they did, then it leads to the subtle insinuation that there is a very powerful 'entity' that pulls people strings like puppets and changes things as it sees fit to avoid certain cataclysmic events. This IS hinted at in the original CT, which lends credit to the idea. If this is the case, then events like Marle disappearing in 600 AD as direct co-relation to Leene's disappearance would absolutely be attributed to this 'entity', as it would not occur with alternate timelines.

Let's move over to FF8's time disruption for a moment. It also deals with alternate realities based on decisions and possible outcomes, though you don't see too much of that in the game. They deal with one linear timeline that loops into itself, cutting all involved off from outside interference, as evidence when *spoiler* Squall goes back in time to the Orphanage and gives Edea the idea for Garden and SeeD, which raised a very important question: Who actually came up with these ideas?

straight answer: we don't know, but we think that somebody outside of the loop had to have done so at some point to be able to initiate the loop. That's if we assume that time is linear and that there is a definitive starting point to time at some point in the history of the cosmos, which is quite a stretch, if you ask me. You have Edea starting Garden and SeeD with Cid and their first students are the kids from the orphanage, those that weren't adopted. Those kids are raised knowing absolutely nothing about the Sorceress or the future threat that comes from them. They learn all of this on their quest to liberate Timber.

But, if we assume that time is not linear, then the whole loop has to be viewed as a whole. It meanders a bit, some times going in a straight line, some times doubling back on itself, some times traveling sideways. Our minds are what give linear viewability to what we intake, to make sense of things.

Let's further think of 'time' as an advanced code. First thing you do when you create a code is troubleshoot; you look for bugs, etc., but you fine tune until you come the closest you can to perfection. You beta test, you alpha test, you throw free products out to people until you can finally code it near enough to perfection to be indecipherable from perfection except to those with keen sensibility. Would we then assume that our very cosmos in its seeming perfection is allowed to have such bugs as 'paradox' in it? Would we then assume that there's not several various levels to the world like some MMO's have various layers for their players when one layer gets over-crowded, or to allow for multiple parties to go through the same motions at the same time in their own ways and methods without interfering with each other?

My point is this: with time not being linear and with multiple layers of it, there is an endless amount of alternate dimensions that are all existing alongside each other and top of each other and in and through each other, allowing for time travel and allowing for things that would cause paradox, but not allowing them to actually cause paradox. Of course, there is always the idea that what happens through time travel was always meant to happen and thus the future is changed already to suit it and anything we do by going to the past would already have been done and we're just performing to what was already done.

But, back to Marle, we have to assume that the CT crew utilized the Alternate Timeline Theory, allowing for multiple dimensions to overlap each other and to exist simultaneously; due to the storyline continued in CC. We further have to assume that an entity is at work far beyond the scope of Lavos and our heroes as evidence in both CT and CC; and that they meant to give us the illusion that we were changing the present and future in CT instead of just forging a new path altogether. We can assume these things by the elements in the game and their misleading natures.

What this means is that they can do anything they want with the heroes of these games and still bring them back for a sequel.