Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Chrono45 on April 05, 2012, 11:38:47 am
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What happened to magus in the original timeline? In a previous topic what magus' fate ending up being before Crono&co came into the picture keeps coming up so I thought I would make it, it's own topic. So far it's either thought that magus was successful in summoning lavos and was either destroyed by Lavos or was teleported much like Crono&co after the battle with magus. It could also be that Frog sought Magus out and killed him. If you will remember one of the endings had frog killing Magus on his own, but this was already with a tampered timeline.
So, I personally believe that instead of dying to lavos, which seems to be the most common belief, is that magus was actually teleported to a different timeline possibly back to 12,000 bc. I figure why would Lavos kill him this time instead of teleporting him like the other time. But one also might think magus was unable to completely summon him because of the interference so some sort of temporal anomaly resulted. Since Crono&co did not run in a make a muk of things, he may have been able to summon him properly and was then promptly eaten. Any other theory's and especially evidence to what happened to Magus would be a great help!
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While there is no doubt in my mind that Magus intended to confront Lavos someday, neither is there concrete evidence that he originally even got the opportunity to begin. It can only be assumed. It is entirely possible that the interference of Crono caused Magus to summon Lavos sooner. (potential original theory: Frog successfully saves Leene, but dies unhumbled in a battle soon after. Magus, as evidenced in game, is well aware of who Frog is and decides, with his archnemesis out of the way, the mystics earned a breather, thus does not summon Lavos as soon as he would. Is possibly defeated before he even gets the chance.)
Your first and second visit to 600 AD vary drastically. on the first visit, there are more soldiers and just... talk. Talk of mystics, talk of guardia, who is doing what.... On your second visit, there are far less soldiers in the towns. Most of what you do see are wounded or dying. Also, the banter has become much more fearful. One of the townspeople (I believe) even tells you that they know Magus is preparing to wipe them out with "some sort of ultimate weapon", which is undoubtedly referring to his summoning Lavos.
Nobody mentions this during your first visit to 600 AD, and nobody at the fairgrounds at 1000 AD ever went into specifics to begin with, so not much help there.
I will give you this interesting bit of information though: The townspeople of 600 AD are aware that Magus was not killed when Crono and party stormed his castle and directly interfered.
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(potential original theory: Frog successfully saves Leene, but dies unhumbled in a battle soon after. Magus, as evidenced in game, is well aware of who Frog is and decides, with his archnemesis out of the way, the mystics earned a breather, thus does not summon Lavos as soon as he would. Is possibly defeated before he even gets the chance.)
Though, considering that the Masamune is broken in half, no matter what happened to Frog, it wouldn't impact much to Magus since it doesn't gets repaired until more Time Travels are done. I think it's more probable he managed to properly summon him, due to no interruptions, and whatever happened to him, it definitely sent him off the radar.
Though, I believe Heckran does mention something on the lines of 'If only Magus had been successful in summoning Lavos 400 years ago'. Though perhaps, due to the nature of the summoning and the fact that just like with Crono and co.'s interference the room was left as if nothing happened afterwards, they just thought the summoning failed. At least, that's what I think.
Your first and second visit to 600 AD vary drastically. on the first visit, there are more soldiers and just... talk. Talk of mystics, talk of guardia, who is doing what.... On your second visit, there are far less soldiers in the towns. Most of what you do see are wounded or dying. Also, the banter has become much more fearful. One of the townspeople (I believe) even tells you that they know Magus is preparing to wipe them out with "some sort of ultimate weapon", which is undoubtedly referring to his summoning Lavos.
Nobody mentions this during your first visit to 600 AD, and nobody at the fairgrounds at 1000 AD ever went into specifics to begin with, so not much help there.
Well, during the first visit to 600 AD, there was more emphasis on Lenne's disappearance. Maybe even the Mystics were also taking a backseat on active war to the kidnapping plot. And once that failed, they probably went: 'Well, that failed, time to do it the old fashioned way'.
To be honest, for much emphasis being done on holding Zenan Bridge during the second visit, the fact there were Mystics at the Cathedral seems a bit off. Though perhaps not so much if it was a plan of sneaking in and try to strike from within.
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I wouldn't say there isn't any evidence, there may be some indirect evidence that you may be able to get from towns folk before you travel back in time for the first time. I plan on playing through here again (on the ds and snes in case their are some differences) in response to all of these questions that have popped up over magus. I plan on marking down any comments from villagers who maybe referring to magus and his schemes.
I completely forgot heckran said that! Um... But maybe he did fail. Is what happened with crono&co failing, that being getting warped to random eras? If so maybe he was trying to summon lavos in some fashion but failed in some manner and just got warped. I mean, he disappears from something.
anyways, I wouldn't really call frog magus' arch enemy. I think magus thinks frog more of a joke, which is probably the reason he turned him into a frog. I'm pretty sure magus thought he was pretty uncontested after easily dispatching Cyrus, Guardia's best knight. And I can't really see Guardia taking him down either without Crono they were already losing the zenan bridge, like i said before magus killed guardia's best knight. From the looks of it Magus was winning and going to win the war till Crono stomped everyone into the ground.
I wont say that Crono's appearance didn't alter magus' plan, but I think that it had very little effect on it if any. Magus' whole theme was vengeance, I don't think he would hold off on his core characteristic because he felt more safe or something to that effect.
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Well, one thing for certain that happens no matter the version, is that after the summoning, Magus disappears from 600AD. Whether being sent to another time or outright killed, once word spreads the humans manage to turn the tide of the war and becomes the victors.
Crono and co.'s interference, whether it actually interrupted the ritual or not, did had an important impact: Magus now had to fight them instead of saving that energy for killing Lavos. What I think is, that without interruptions, Magus attempted to fight, which probably lead to Lavos killing him then. Interrupted and enduring being struck by the Masamune and the like, Magus wasn't in shape to do so, so that's why Lavos probably just sent the to different eras since no actual hostility presented itself towards it.
Also notice how despite Lavos being called forth, only a giant gate was opened. It's probable that it wasn't really Lavos being called to 600AD but instead Magus just opening a gate to it's dwelling. Hence why once everything was said and done, in both version it's just a matter of the gate being closed, so to someone who were to stumble into the room afterwards, nothing would seem out of the ordinary. Hence, why one could think the whole thing failed. It just left no evidence to suggest it did, hence it's the assumption they'd most likely jump to.
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Regarding the Heckran:
By the time you encounter Heckran, you have already contaminated 600 AD with changes to history. They're already going on the alternate path, as soon as you return to 1000 AD from your original trip to save Marle. Heckran is not a clue to original 600 AD.
Here is what is known of the original Timeline
- Magus did not win the war
- Mystics lost on a bitter note and still hate people.
- Queen Leene was captured, but rescued by Frog, though he remained anonymous due to his
appearance.
- No Justice and Incarceration system was firmly established.
Here is what is not known of the original Timeline
- If Magus was killed or sent somewhere else
- What became of Frog
- what happened to the masamune
- When Zenan bridge was repaired
- If the mystics had even attacked there or advanced that far
- If there were entirely different casualties on both sides than what you witnessed.
There are a lot of things about 600 AD That could have been changed simply by Marle, Crono, and Lucca showing up in it.
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I wouldn't say there isn't any evidence, there may be some indirect evidence that you may be able to get from towns folk before you travel back in time for the first time. I plan on playing through here again (on the ds and snes in case their are some differences) in response to all of these questions that have popped up over magus. I plan on marking down any comments from villagers who maybe referring to magus and his schemes.
I already did. All they do is mention that Magus was their enemy, and that they (humans) won the war.
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Regarding the Heckran:
By the time you encounter Heckran, you have already contaminated 600 AD with changes to history. They're already going on the alternate path, as soon as you return to 1000 AD from your original trip to save Marle. Heckran is not a clue to original 600 AD.
The thing is though, that the first visit to 600AD had nothing to do with Heckran's comments. They never left North Zenan, the Masamune wasn't repaired, etc. So whatever happened at Magus's Castle in the original time line is highly likely to have been outright the same things that happened in this new 600AD with Crono, Lucca, and Marle involved in the Cathedral events, up until they came back with a repaired Masamune and then they finally stepped into the Mystic Continent.
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I would like to think the mystic war wasn't really a victory in the real timeline. Here's my logic:
If I remember correctly before the bridge battle with ozzie, the bridge is destroyed in 1000AD. And after the bridge is still there. The bridge's repair after the first raid is finished right after you complete the first visit to 600AD. In the battle with Ozzie before you show up, the Knights of the Square Table are dying left and right. Perhaps in a last resort to protect the kingdom, the KotS destroy the bridge. This would cut off the Mystic's advance. The only other mystics to be known in North Zenan Continent seem to be the ones near the gate and the ones the Yarka brought with him. (You could assuming they all belong to Yarka, although it really doesn't matter) This destruction of the Bridge could be seen as a "victory" as it protected the kingdom from the mystic's advance.
Regarding the Masamune, Cyrus's battle with Magus is what destroyed it. That's why Glenn had a piece and the other was in the mountain. This happens before the timeline is corrupted. So it should still remain.
As for Magus, it boils down to this. Does he still have a reason to still summon Lavos? He obviously lied to the Mystics by saying it was his weapon to destroy the humans. Heckran and Ozzie both seem to confirm this. However the question remains how long is it between the battle with ozzie on the bridge and Magus's lair. It would have to be quite a bit because you have to fix the Masamune first. Although this could be kinda unimportant if you consider the tampering with timeline, but I'm going to use this as a starting point at least. There is a decent amount of time between the battle with Ozzie and the day of the raid on magus's lair. It's possible that in the real timeline the mystics got rowdy and refused to give him a chance to "create" Lavos. He then lives out his life and dies as the Mystic Sultan. Then there's option 2 he tries to summon Lavos, and instead get's pulled into his pocket dimension to die. Option 3, he fails to summon Lavos and gets transported somewhere else in time. (I personally LOVE this option because this leaves the room for TTI to have be anywhere in the timeline, can you cay Chrono Brake!? OH AND THEN THERE IS THE SECOND MAGUS FROM DS!!!!!!) Then there is the terribly improbable option 4, he summons Lavos and Lavos rises to the surface to kill him.
Option 1,2, and 3 are the only real likely ones, but I'd only like to accept 2. This would explain why there is no record of any further raids and why Heckran made a reference to Lavos. Option 1 and 3 are still possibilities but they assume too much in my opinion. Option 1 is possible as nothing is really known of Magus before any timeline interference, so for all we know Magus never dies in the original timeline. Option 3 is possible because there is no reference to Lavos before any timeline interference.
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Well, there is another possibility to consider. Since when Magus began this summoning plans, to the point the news could reach the humans? Not to mention, during the first visit you're stuck on North Zenan. At that point they're basically isolated from the rest of the continent. Maybe word of it did reach the humans, but had yet to reach Guardia and Truce due to the bridge being broken, hence why you don't hear of Lavos firs time through.
In any case, in the early game, considering how regretful the Mystics of 1000AD are that Magus didn't wiped the humans, I don't think they wouldn't have allowed Magus to summon Lavos. Especially with the bridge broken meaning they couldn't pass to do it themselves. So I think we can discard Option 1. Unless, it was something they came to regret over the years, but the dialogue doesn't suggest it's that case.
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Well Option 1 was more of they demanded immediate action.
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If I remember correctly before the bridge battle with ozzie, the bridge is destroyed in 1000AD. And after the bridge is still there. The bridge's repair after the first raid is finished right after you complete the first visit to 600AD. In the battle with Ozzie before you show up, the Knights of the Square Table are dying left and right. Perhaps in a last resort to protect the kingdom, the KotS destroy the bridge. This would cut off the Mystic's advance. The only other mystics to be known in North Zenan Continent seem to be the ones near the gate and the ones the Yarka brought with him. (You could assuming they all belong to Yarka, although it really doesn't matter) This destruction of the Bridge could be seen as a "victory" as it protected the kingdom from the mystic's advance.
Na the bridge always exists in 1000AD. You can visit Medina, Choras, and Porre all before even going to the Millenial Fair actually.
As for your Magus ideas, option 2 is the most likely I agree but option 3 is more fun and open :-)
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Regarding the Heckran:
By the time you encounter Heckran, you have already contaminated 600 AD with changes to history. They're already going on the alternate path, as soon as you return to 1000 AD from your original trip to save Marle. Heckran is not a clue to original 600 AD.
The thing is though, that the first visit to 600AD had nothing to do with Heckran's comments. They never left North Zenan, the Masamune wasn't repaired, etc. So whatever happened at Magus's Castle in the original time line is highly likely to have been outright the same things that happened in this new 600AD with Crono, Lucca, and Marle involved in the Cathedral events, up until they came back with a repaired Masamune and then they finally stepped into the Mystic Continent.
Read my original post, I really can't keep repeating it over and over
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Repeating what in the post, exactly? I'm sorry, that just seems like a lazy way to dismiss Acacia's point (and not a good way to convince someone you're correct).
Read my original post
He did. We all did, that's how we got to the bottom of the page. What new information is in there now that would change the discussion? I read the entire thread again and I disagree with you that Heckran's comments about Magus were somehow not a clue to the original uninterrupted timeline. Acacia presented perfectly clear and valid evidence to dispute your claim and I feel like you dismissed it as though he's an idiot or something.
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I really can't keep repeating it over and over
You haven't really repeated anything. Can you instead try reiterating, saying it in a new way til you're understood, using different words, maybe while emphasizing a certain point instead of referencing three whole paragraphs from a previous post.
No offense, but I just don't understand (based on what you've typed) what you disagree with specifically from Acacia's post and why it would take more effort to explain than it did to say that you can't put forth the effort to clarify what you mean. Just seems a little contradictory. Again, no offense intended.
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I have repeated that the encounter with Heckran occurs in a 1000 AD that has already been corrupted. When my theory was first mentioned (which included Heckran in consideration) it was debunked on the grounds that "but Heckran says..."
So I bring up Heckran again, foregoing the other details of the first post and focusing specifically on this one.
Someone else has argument with it which ignores everything ELSE about the first post.
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I have repeated that the encounter with Heckran occurs in a 1000 AD that has already been corrupted. When my theory was first mentioned (which included Heckran in consideration) it was debunked on the grounds that "but Heckran says..."
So I bring up Heckran again, foregoing the other details of the first post and focusing specifically on this one.
Someone else has argument with it which ignores everything ELSE about the first post.
So I ask you, just because 1000AD changed, does it means ALL of it changed?
Heckran's dialogue is not related at all to the Cathedral incident, the only thing about 600AD that got changed.
Heckran's dialogue is about the summoning. Nothing in the first trip on 600AD changed anything related to it. Again, the Masamune remained broken. And due to the nature of needing further time traveling to repair it, it remained that way in the new time line created after Crono and co.'s meddling on the Cathedral incident but before they revisit to retrieve the pieces.
There is no way Heckran's dialogue could've been affected by the changes. The summoning still happened the same way it did in the original since nothing related to it was changed.
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I certainly wouldn't say in "no way" could it have changed, but I agree that it is unlikely that the events of the first trip to 600ad would have influenced Heckrans thoughts at the moment. However, I believe what this gentlemen is trying to say, is that certain events may cause a type of chain reaction that can lead to larger changes. Many people know this idea as the chaos theory. If you are unfamiliar with it a quick google will inform you of its basic functions. This theory implies an almost untraceable chain of events that can lead from a very small change to enormous consequences. This is actually used in many plots of time travel, a traveler will travel back in time and do something very insignificant like cut a tree down. Then upon return to his or her time period they find a forest to be missing. Their is no way of knowing whether or not Crono could have influenced Heckran's life or not. But I tell you this their are no absolutes in time travel.
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Chaos theory would explain why one piece of evidence is useless and would open up a whole other can of worms as well. If subtle changes in the Chronoverse had such effects, we'd see them. But they don't. Everything turns out the same way in 2300AD until Lavos is destroyed, for example. Even things you can change, like the Porre mayor with the sunstone, or Lucca's mother's accident, are directly affected by the player (and the team). Can you think of literally ANYwhere in the game where it may be shown in action?
The chaos theory is fine for speculation in the real world, but its core rules contradict those of Chrono Trigger (you'd be better off arguing it for Cross, but even then everything was "planned" by Belthasar, illustrating a distinct lack of chaos) to the point that trying to explain one event with said theory is futile and counterproductive.
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So I ask you, just because 1000AD changed, does it means ALL of it changed?
No, not necessarily. However, the Yakra event was significant enough that people in 1000 AD remembered it. It was a major strike by the mystics against the Guardia royal family, and definitely not one of the mystics' finest hours if they were trying to garner sympathy from the player.
Heckran's dialogue is not related at all to the Cathedral incident, the only thing about 600AD that got changed.
Heckran doesn't mention it. If I don't say anything at all related to Jewish concentration camps, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Again, it's starting to look like I need to repeat what I said before.
Heckran's dialogue is about the summoning. Nothing in the first trip on 600AD changed anything related to it.
Again, you're missing the point. You never get to see Heckran *before* tampering with 600 AD. For all we know, that could have played out very differently. THAT is my point.
...here, let me put it to you like this.
Let's pretend for a moment that Lucca's telepod sent Marle (and Crono, and later herself) to 2300 AD instead of 600 AD. Assuming everything plays out generally normal-like, Gaspar points them to Medina village so they can get home. They've never been in 600 AD before, nor has that period ever encountered them.
Normally, when you defeat Heckran, he would say "If only the Great Magus, who brought forth Lavos 400 years ago, had destroyed you humans..." In this alternate course of gameplay, he might have said something totally different: "If only Magus had brought forth Lavos when he had the chance... !!!"
You guys have to understand I'm only claiming as a potential theory, not fact, that the Crono party's interference in 600 AD might have, via a chain reaction of events, caused Magus to get to work on that earlier, and that he originally may have never even started summoning Lavos to begin with. Whether or not Frog's self-esteem is involved is another story altogether.
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Chaos theory wouldn't necessarily explain why one piece of evidence is useless. I actually took inspiration for my example from Chrono Trigger. If you may remember in 12,000 bc a woman is making a decision on whether or not to destroy a plant, well telling her to save the plant completely changes an entire ecosystem on like half of a continent. This seems pretty significant to me. So, you know, it's possible, but I still agree with you to some extent Mr. Bekkler, the incidents on the first trip to 600 ad had almost no impact on the timeline due to almost nothing being changed. Frog (or someone else) rescued the queen and seemingly killed Yakra in that timeline probably close to the same time crono&co did it.
Their is also the counter theory to the Chaos Theory as well, although I don't know if this one has an exact name. There as so many different variables effecting a timeline at once that a change in one would equal out to infinitesimal effects. One may be able to go around changing thousands of variables within a system, but since that system is near infinitely big their is rather little consequence. I believe Zeality may have offered this theory to explain why removing Ayla from the timeline did not effect the present Gaurdia family line.
I am merely throwing options out to make sure we cover all possible bases on the topic.
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Don't get me wrong, I love this kind of analytical discussion! We should cover all the bases we can!
That said, I thought Fiona's Forest wasn't affected by the Zeal plant lady. I know saving the forest is a sidequest that takes direct action from Crono&co, anyway. Personal opinion: I thought the lady in Zeal, Fiona, and the woman whose husband died in the future where you find the seed were all related, since the Toma and Guardia family lines are so in your face, I like to think subtle similarities between characters in different eras are clues that they are related. Like Ayla and Marle (and later Kid) are essentially blonde tomboys, Marle and Schala have the same pendant, and Doan mentions something about being related if I recall correctly, so it seems in CT every era we're shown has some generation of the same family line in charge. (The Schala Marle connection becomes blurred after the Ocean Palace incident, but remember Dalton (also blonde) survived and tried to proclaim himself king, he may have been the first Guardian (which would make his role in the fall of Guardia rather ironic and twisted).
I'm getting off topic but my point was simply that I thought the Zeal seed lady had no impact on the story (it may just be that I always answered one way whenever I talked to her, I don't know).
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The word on Fiona is somewhat similar the idea I was talking about.
Fiona is certainly designed as an allusion to Zeal and 12,000 BC (her clothes in the game's artwork are the same as Schala's, but brown.) As far as being actually connected, I could go either way on it. Even without Crono and his party contaminating 12,000 BC, Fiona is still attempting to restore the forest. Yet at the same time, it's possible the woman in 12,000 BC just decided to hang onto the seed herself.
Has anyone ever told the lady to burn the seed? Does this affect the Fiona sidequest?
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Let's pretend for a moment that Lucca's telepod sent Marle (and Crono, and later herself) to 2300 AD instead of 600 AD. Assuming everything plays out generally normal-like, Gaspar points them to Medina village so they can get home. They've never been in 600 AD before, nor has that period ever encountered them.
Normally, when you defeat Heckran, he would say "If only the Great Magus, who brought forth Lavos 400 years ago, had destroyed you humans..." In this alternate course of gameplay, he might have said something totally different: "If only Magus had brought forth Lavos when he had the chance... !!!"
The thing is, how do we know that such thing could happen? And also, was Magus really summoning Lavos to 600AD, or he was just opening a way to Lavos? Take notice how after Crono and co. fight Magus, the soldiers comment how they later searched the place but didn't saw anything out of the ordinary.
My point is, that depending on what exactly they interrupted Magus, it could be that the whole process wasn't gonna even left evidence that it happened. The Mystics talk about a summoning, but they were already being lied about the purpose Magus had with Lavos, so how can we take Heckran's possible alternate words as what exactly happened?
You guys have to understand I'm only claiming as a potential theory, not fact, that the Crono party's interference in 600 AD might have, via a chain reaction of events, caused Magus to get to work on that earlier, and that he originally may have never even started summoning Lavos to begin with. Whether or not Frog's self-esteem is involved is another story altogether.
To be honest, the Cathedral incident pre-interference and post-interference remained roughly the same. It changed from 'Frog and Guardia Soldiers storm the Cathedral and rescue Leene', to 'Frog, Crono, and Lucca storm the Cathedral and rescue Leene'. Granted, it's enough of a change for the Mystics to react differently to it, but not to be as alarming.
And besides, there's the fact of the seal on the Magic Cave. What else could the humans have used to reach the Mystic Continent in the first place? I don't think Magus would have enough reasons to change the time of the summing because of the Cathedral incident.
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I am very certain that if you do not tell the woman to plant the seed (tell her to burn it or strait up dont talk to her) that the Fiona sidequest will not be accessible. However, you can always go back to the woman (she appears in the survivors area after zeal falls) and tell her to plant the seed. Just like every other conversation prompt in Chrono Trigger only one choice has an effect. That being said, it seems to me that since you have to talk to the woman in order to do the forest side quest, it is a pretty clear indication that that is the straw that broke the camels back.
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Interesting. I don't think I've ever told her to burn it so I've never seen the no forest course, but I trust you know what you're talking about. In that case, it seems we've found at least one inconsistency in the portrayal of effects on the timeline, not even counting the Marle paradox. Can you think of any other big, unintentional ripple effects like that?
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I completely forgot heckran said that!
Well Lavos was support to be summoned as a weapon to kill the humans, at least Magus told the mystics like that (of course he couldn't tell them the truth he was seeking revenge).
So, no matter Lavos appeared or not, the mystics would always think Magus failed -- because they still lost the war.
Also, how the team realized later in game Maugs did not created Lavos but only summoned it(compare to how they believed Magus was the one who created Lavos) somehow showed the script writer's intention was like that.
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The thing is, how do we know that such thing could happen? And also, was Magus really summoning Lavos to 600AD, or he was just opening a way to Lavos? Take notice how after Crono and co. fight Magus, the soldiers comment how they later searched the place but didn't saw anything out of the ordinary.
That's the idea behind it being a potentiality. "Who knows? Magus might not have even summoned Lavos to begin with." Except everyone who wasn't paying attention starting tossing Heckran around to joss that, forgetting that you encounter him after affecting 600 AD. [/quote]
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Except for the attack in 1999 AD, Lavos kind of exists in its own little pocket outside of time and space. In that case, summoning it and opening a portal to it are one and the same. Like at the Ocean Palace.
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The thing is, how do we know that such thing could happen? And also, was Magus really summoning Lavos to 600AD, or he was just opening a way to Lavos? Take notice how after Crono and co. fight Magus, the soldiers comment how they later searched the place but didn't saw anything out of the ordinary.
That's the idea behind it being a potentiality. "Who knows? Magus might not have even summoned Lavos to begin with." Except everyone who wasn't paying attention starting tossing Heckran around to joss that, forgetting that you encounter him after affecting 600 AD.
And likewise, how do we know if Heckran's quote is or isn't the same as in the unchanged time line. Not all the time period changes when a change in the past is done. Not in all anyway.
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The thing is, how do we know that such thing could happen? And also, was Magus really summoning Lavos to 600AD, or he was just opening a way to Lavos? Take notice how after Crono and co. fight Magus, the soldiers comment how they later searched the place but didn't saw anything out of the ordinary.
That's the idea behind it being a potentiality. "Who knows? Magus might not have even summoned Lavos to begin with." Except everyone who wasn't paying attention starting tossing Heckran around to joss that, forgetting that you encounter him after affecting 600 AD.
And likewise, how do we know if Heckran's quote is or isn't the same as in the unchanged time line. Not all the time period changes when a change in the past is done. Not in all anyway.
We don't.
Again, Potentiality
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It can work just fine if it's ambiguous enough.
However, the events of the first trip to 600AD don't really offer, if any, things that could've potentially change Heckran's dialogue.
Considering that in the original time line Leene was still rescued and the summoning still failed in the eyes of the Mystics. The Cathedral incident was isolated, pretty much never left North Zenan. What hints to conjecture that it could've affected Magus's judgement, who is all the way at his castle?
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Why are we arguing about Hekran, Can't we all agree that Magus was going to summon Lavos either way cathedral or not. We know enough about Magus to know he was gonna summon Lavos eventually and didn't care about the mystics at all.
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Because nobody paid attention to key components of the original argument and kept misinterpreting it. Did you read it?
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Alright, I don't think anyone really misinterpreted anything. we were just arguing the credibility of what Heckran said.
I'm going to give a little recap of the discussion and the evidence that has been provided
The question is what was magus' fate in the unaffected timeline? So far the theorys are...
1. He summons Lavos and lavos Kills him in some fashion. The idea here is that without being interrupted by Crono&co he was able to successful summon Lavos whom then proceeded to kill him. The evidence for this is basically that Guardia stands in all its glory in 1000 a.d. If magus would have continued this war, he most likely would have easily over-run Guardia at some point. This is because Cyrus, their best knight, had already been defeated, along with their second best, Glenn. The masamune was destroyed and from the general setting in Guardia the war looked very grim while the setting down in "mysticville" TM was looking quite promising (in its own undead way). However, you don't experience any of the mystics south of Zenan bridge until you have potentially changed the timeline due to such a thing as chaos theory which will be discussed later. During your second trip their, Zenan bridge is rebuilt and the mystics are then breaking through, possibly lending to the evidence that without Crono&co they would have stormed Guardia pretty quickly after that. However, one thing to consider, every time we see Lavos pop up from his underearth home he generally reeks quite a bit of havoc (blowing up worlds and what not). So if he were to be summoned, one might think the world would have known about it.
2. Magus Summons Lavos, but like with Crono&co is warped to a different time period. This theory can be viewed in two different ways one he summons Lavos and for what ever reason it is Lavos warps him, or that his summon failed in some way and that results in his warp. The same thing that happened in the Crono line is what is being theorized here though. This follows basically the same evidence as the previous theory except for the fact that he does not die. One might think that if Magus was warped to another time period that he would have had an effect on the time period as well (evidence of this was his ability to throw all of 600 ad into chaos in a few years probably 10-20). Since we never notice him, or anything that may have been a result of him in another period, we could probably assume he wasn't warped within the Chrono timeline. If he was though, it would have probably been somewhere in between 65 million bc and 12,000 bc statistically speaking (its a much larger time frame) and logically speaking since the world would have had millions of years to hide the effects of any mischief caused by magus. Although, there is the second magus we encounter in the ds version, could this be that magus? Please keep the time travelers immunity theory in mind.
3. Magus doesn't summon Lavos and either dies of old age (very ultra unlikely) or is sacked by Guardia before he is able to summon Lavos. The idea here is that without the disturbances of Crono&co in the timeline Magus would have laid back and mayhaps prepared more for his fight with Lavos (although why if he thought he could kill Lavos in the Crono timeline but be worried about Crono&co is beyond me). However, many people believe this to be unlikely since Magus has devoted his life to defeating Lavos. Also, it might be added that the disturbances to the original timeline up to Zenan Bridge were quite minor, so the effects that those had on the original were probably minor as well. How would have Guardia even taken his keep, this to me is a very unlikely situation because of the state Guardia is in until Crono comes to the rescue.
So those are basically the theory's, there is little evidence from npc's that talk about the summoning. Most say something to the effect of "If only magus would have summoned the Lavos back in 600ad etc..." The two instances that I found of this in the ds version are from Heckran and from the mystics dancing around the Magus statue in medina square. Other than that I was not able to find any other mentions (and I was pretty thorough about it too). That being said I will still have to go through the SNES version and see what if anything was different.
Also two things to keep in mind is the Time Travelers immunity theory, I believe the compendium has a page on it so I won't go into it, but it relates to magus being warped in the second theory. Second, anything that happened in 600 a.d. after your first visit their may have been compromised. so any npc's from that point on may have had reacted differently had you never went to 600ad. This is partly taken from the idea of chaos theory which a quick google search will inform you about.
If I missed anything or made any mistakes make sure you correct me! and I know you will :wink:
edit: Ha, already saw I forgot something. It was also hypothesized that if magus was warped from his summoning of Lavos that his chamber would have been more or less intact. This would have given the illusion that Magus just "took off" and didn't summon Lavos. So the mystics coming upon this would have marked it down in history as him not summoning Lavos.
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That sums it up very well, Chrono45. We haven't skipped, forgotten, or misinterpreted anything. However we do seem to be at a standstill with the three possibilities.
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It's alright. It was a single possible theory that got blonw up because of a complicated series of things going on in it that someone missed.
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I too think number three is highly unlikely. There's no way Magus was defeated by Guardia or that he just gave up. MAYBE Frog defeated him, and that's a big maybe because it'd have to be without the Masamune and Frog had given up hope. Besides if a single person had ended the war they'd be remembered even in 1000 A.D. The NPCs don't say much just that one kid that says, "What's the big deal? So what if we won a war against a wizard hundreds of years ago?"
It's hard to tell seeing as the first trip could have started a chain reaction but Guardia was doomed. with out Crono and company the mystics should have swarmed and gotten past the bridge. With Magus's armies swarming Guardia Magus may have started the summoning. He'd be alone and undisturbed. Once he disappeared and word got to the mystics well with out a leader things kind of fall apart.
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An astute and practical piece of reasoning. Thanks Mage :)
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Magus doesn't HAVE to appear in the timeline before 12000 BC. Keep in mind two things: 1) we know nothing of the future after 1999 is that the world is being over run by robots that are attacking humans, and the world has been destroyed. Some humans lived through Lavos and others out lived the robots 2) Magus didn't start the mystic war. At least, we have no proof he did. Rather he took advantage of a situation. (that's what I always thought at least)
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I didn't say he HAD to. In fact, if you would go back and read, I said it was more than likely that he did not get warped to the Chrono timeline, between 65 million and 2300. But that he got warped to some era before, after, or something else. I would say that the mystics and the humans were already in tension before Magus' arrival. However, they were not organized and therefore were of little threat. Magus was able to rally them together and centralize there operations out of his keep. I believe this is the truth because during the cut scene of Janus being warped to 600 a.d. he was met by Ozzie and some other imps randomly in the forest. Why was Ozzie in the forest? probably because that was how they lived up until magus organized them.
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That's a little too presumptuous don't you think? Oh well, point is, it is entirely possible that he exists in the timeline after 1999 AD. (And then in chrono brake he is the new dictator of the world!!!! ^__^)
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But that he got warped to some era before, after, or something else.
I can't stop thinking about how he was warped to 46000000000 BC and died in magma, or more ridiculous, to 50000000000 AD and joined the red giant.
:lol:
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Haha, I think it is explicitly presumptuous, but I am going to look into that one more. There may possibly be an npc somewhere that says Magus started the war or something. I am not really sure of Magus' age either but I was under the assumption he was like 30-40. Taking that low end of 30 and assuming he was around 10 years old when he got warped that would mean the war (if it had started before he got there) would have had to be going on for about 20 years. Their arn't many wars that have lasted longer than 20 years, especially with active conflict for a constant 20 years. So again, I think it is more than likely that he either started or "refueled" the war. Obviously everything in this statement is an assumption his age the length of the war all that jazz... but what else do we have to go on but logical conclusion.
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Chrono45, I did some searching in the game scripts. Here's what I found. It is spoken in Medina, 1000 AD (after leaving 65 million BC).
[Mystics]
400 years have passed since Magus
commanded the Mystics, and waged
war against the humans.
[Demons]
400 years have passed since Magus-sama led us
Demons and challenged the humans to war.
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It's amazing how much confusion can result from a single plot point that isn't thought out all that well.
The whole problem rests with the assertion that Magus summons, or attempts to summon, Lavos in 600 A.D. As strong as Magus is, he is no fool. What could he hope to achieve against Lavos by himself in an age far less advanced from where he originally came? I would argue that his intention isn't to summon Lavos at all, but to magically reopen the time-portal that sent him to the middle ages in the first place. Think about it. He cares about Schala more than anything. What could he want more than the possibility of going back in time and preventing the destruction of Zeal and saving Schala? And if he's successful, it would effectively negate the entire 600 A.D. timeline, meaning that all of the evil acts Magus performed to achieve his objective would amount to nothing. He would know this, so from his point of view the ends would justify the means.
As for Crono and company, my view is that there isn't two versions of history (like in Chrono Cross) but only one. Everything is interconnected. Crono was meant to travel through time, discover the ruined future, and journey to Zeal to attempt to stop Lavos. Janus was meant to be hurled into the future and later return to the past to challenge Lavos. The first half of the game is essentially one giant pre-destination paradox, one that isn't truly resolved until Crono - who was meant to die - is brought back to life by his friends, thereby creating a reality where it was possible to prevent the Day of Lavos in 1999.
I'm not challenging any of the points people have made in this thread, nor am I challenging what canonically happened in the game. I'm saying canon itself is flawed and should be reexamined.
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Thing is though, after the party fights Magus and comment about him creating it, Magus then corrects them about him only wanting to summon Lavos.
Though honestly, whether he is telling the truth or not, why bother correcting their assumption of the creation thing then?
And on the other hand, when the party confronts him at the North Cape (I think it was there), his comments heavily imply he had no plans of returning to 12000BC back in 600AD.
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Just one timeline now that's an interesting idea Lennis. Have you another summary for Chrono Trigger like the one you gave for Cross? Also, If I were you I would not let yourself be stifled by this canon concept one way or another, since it is never mentioned in the game at all.
My Chrono Cross summary was meant to reflect canon more than my own ideas. In this case, I'm trying to redefine canon in a way that makes more sense in a narrative.
I try not to let myself be stifled by convention. I've already outlined several outright changes to canon in my novel, but in a way that's (I hope) true to the spirit of the source material. My concern is getting carried away with my own ideas and transforming the story into something no fan of Chrono would accept. I know some people treat canon like the Bible.
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I know some people treat canon like the Bible.
Considering 'canon' refers originally to the founding texts of a religion, on which the tenets are based...It makes sense.
In any case, you say 'why would Magus be trying to summon Lavos for a solo fight, when he knew he'd have no chance'... But he later does just that, and seems quite perturbed that it is ineffective.
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Chrono45, I did some searching in the game scripts. Here's what I found. It is spoken in Medina, 1000 AD (after leaving 65 million BC).
[Mystics]
400 years have passed since Magus
commanded the Mystics, and waged
war against the humans.
[Demons]
400 years have passed since Magus-sama led us
Demons and challenged the humans to war.
To me, they both just sound as if he just took control of a situation. At the very least there was a cold war type air between the two groups. He may have started the war. I don't think he really did, but I mean it's sorta ambiguous and I won't be upset if he did. My only theory really is that he dies against Lavos. I really hope he got sent to the future though.... I'm sorry I keep saying that but can you really blame me? TWO MAGUSES (maguss? magi? I'll stick with maguses) IN CHRONO BRAKE!!!!
It's amazing how much confusion can result from a single plot point that isn't thought out all that well.
The whole problem rests with the assertion that Magus summons, or attempts to summon, Lavos in 600 A.D. As strong as Magus is, he is no fool. What could he hope to achieve against Lavos by himself in an age far less advanced from where he originally came? I would argue that his intention isn't to summon Lavos at all, but to magically reopen the time-portal that sent him to the middle ages in the first place. Think about it. He cares about Schala more than anything. What could he want more than the possibility of going back in time and preventing the destruction of Zeal and saving Schala? And if he's successful, it would effectively negate the entire 600 A.D. timeline, meaning that all of the evil acts Magus performed to achieve his objective would amount to nothing. He would know this, so from his point of view the ends would justify the means.
As for Crono and company, my view is that there isn't two versions of history (like in Chrono Cross) but only one. Everything is interconnected. Crono was meant to travel through time, discover the ruined future, and journey to Zeal to attempt to stop Lavos. Janus was meant to be hurled into the future and later return to the past to challenge Lavos. The first half of the game is essentially one giant pre-destination paradox, one that isn't truly resolved until Crono - who was meant to die - is brought back to life by his friends, thereby creating a reality where it was possible to prevent the Day of Lavos in 1999.
I'm not challenging any of the points people have made in this thread, nor am I challenging what canonically happened in the game. I'm saying canon itself is flawed and should be reexamined.
I don't really understand what you mean by one timeline. But you did say that Magus wasn't going to fight Lavos, which he seriously did. He fought Lavos on his own. It was literally the first thing he did when he met Lavos as an adult. I guess you're arguing that it's only because he was in 12000BC and he wouldnt do that in 600AD. But I don't think that's entirely likely. Magus is a dick. I love that about him. He thinks he can do it alone. And I root for him because of that. He's arrogant enough to think that he could kill Lavos alone. I think that's what all of us think and like about him. He's like Russel Crowe: if the afterlife and God do exist, they are both the type of person to have the balls to insult God to his face. He was trying to summon Lavos to fight him alone. He was in it for the revenge. I just can't believe Magus would think logically about his past. Personally, I know how revenge, particularly from ruining someones childhood, can cause that someone to throw all logic out the window.
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I don't really understand what you mean by one timeline. But you did say that Magus wasn't going to fight Lavos, which he seriously did. He fought Lavos on his own. It was literally the first thing he did when he met Lavos as an adult. I guess you're arguing that it's only because he was in 12000BC and he wouldnt do that in 600AD. But I don't think that's entirely likely. Magus is a dick. I love that about him. He thinks he can do it alone. And I root for him because of that. He's arrogant enough to think that he could kill Lavos alone. I think that's what all of us think and like about him. He's like Russel Crowe: if the afterlife and God do exist, they are both the type of person to have the balls to insult God to his face. He was trying to summon Lavos to fight him alone. He was in it for the revenge. I just can't believe Magus would think logically about his past. Personally, I know how revenge, particularly from ruining someones childhood, can cause that someone to throw all logic out the window.
I apologize for resurrecting an old thread, but I thought I should clarify my idea a bit. There is a reason why Magus would prefer to fight Lavos in 12,000 B.C. The Masamune. Though it exists in a different form in the Zealian era, Magus would think possessing that weapon would give him a greater chance of winning, as he clearly showed in the events that transpired in Zeal. I would argue that this became his back-up plan after he failed to obtain the Masamune in the middle-ages, thanks to Cyrus and Glenn. His original plan was to take the more powerful middle-ages Masamune and bring it with him into the past to fight Lavos, thereby gaining revenge and changing his own past. This would more than likely create a paradox, because changing his own past would effectively negate his victory over Lavos, but as you say, Magus probably isn't thinking that far ahead. Conversely, perhaps he was conscious of creating a paradox by fighting Lavos in the past, but once the middle-ages Masamune was shattered, fighting Lavos in 600 A.D. was no longer a viable option.
Again, this isn't consistent with the canon script, but I think it is a better way of examining Magus' actions and motives.
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Altered from canon or not, this version of events don't sound like something that would make much sense.
Wasn't Magus as the Prophet the one responsible for Melchior being sent to Mt. Woe? If he was planning to use the Masamune why do that when the sword was still incomplete?
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This is a pretty interesting topic! =) Here is my opinion on how the original timeline went, just for funsies:
1. The Mystics destroy Zenan Bridge (as is mentioned in the game.)
2. Frog (alone or with Guardia soldiers) saves Queen Leene.
3. The Mystics ravage the southern continent, creating a desert.
4. Guardia repairs the bridge.
5. Ozzie attacks the bridge with soldiers created through necromancy, humans barely hold off/ Ozzie retreats after he deals significant damage.
6. Magus attempts to summon Lavos through a ritual. He is successful but creates a giant gate that engulfs his castle
7. Magus, Ozzie, Flea, Slash, the castle and the army inside are scattered throughout time or doomed to face Lavos. ***
8. With all command and control gone, the remaining Mystic army collapses.
9. Those that remain form Medina.
10. Tensions/grudges remain - some Mystics get over it.
*** If Ozzie was killed he must have had offspring beforehand (same for Yakra, as we see). If he was sent through time he was probably sent 100-200 years in the future and perhaps founded Medina as a collective. (His offspring is the leader of the Mystics in 1000AD - but that is only Ozzie the VIII and we see that Yakra's offspring is Yakra XIII. Different lifespan or time travel? who knows.)
If Magus was sent back to 12000BC as we see in the new timeline - the events of the Ocean Palace would have been different. Melchior would have been imprisoned on Mt. Woe and probably never freed. The Mammon Machine would never have been overloaded by the Ruby Knife, so Lavos probably awoke sometime later, when much more of its energy had been sapped. Since the Ocean Palace did not rise to become the Black Omen, the Queen would not have been in the Ocean Palace at the time of Lavos's awakening in this timeline - she would have died in the attack/survived and integrated with the Earthbound Ones eventually.
That's my take on it.
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Wasn't Magus as the Prophet the one responsible for Melchior being sent to Mt. Woe? If he was planning to use the Masamune why do that when the sword was still incomplete?
Hmmm... I don't remember Magus having anything to do with Melchior's imprisonment, but then, it's been awhile since I played through that part of CT. In any case, I handle the subject of Melchior's imprisonment differently, as I have it outlined for my novel project.
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:oops:
are or arent... thats is q...
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:oops:
are or arent... thats is q...
What? I don't understand what you're trying to say.
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I don't think Magus really cared to much for the Masamune. If I remember correctly he was surprised how strong it became. If it wasn't strong enough to worry him then why want it? Plus he assumed it was destroyed. (I think)
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... or how well Glen at it...
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Altered from canon or not, this version of events don't sound like something that would make much sense.
Wasn't Magus as the Prophet the one responsible for Melchior being sent to Mt. Woe? If he was planning to use the Masamune why do that when the sword was still incomplete?
Let's assume he knew the sword wouldn't be complete in time and let's assume he had no idea Melchior created the sword. I mean... do we know how the Masamune was created in the original timeline? Chrono isn't there to thrust it into the Mamon Machine, and we have no other hints right now. At least not in this thread
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What relevance does it has the way the sword was created? Whether or not it could be completed by external sources the way Crono did when it thrust it at the Mammon Machine?
Well, at the very least, an influx of contact with Dreamstone seems like a possible method, considering the Mammon Machine thing. But wasn't at the same already activated and drawing in Lavos's energy? Perhaps that also had a hand.
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So we know that the Ruby Knife was thrust into the Mammon Machine and, in time, became the Masamune. This happened in both the pre-Chrono Trigger timeline and the in-game timeline. The details of who thrust the knife into the machine are pointless, either way the sword was created.
Flash forward in time. In 590AD Magus killed Cyrus and broke the Masamune. He knew of it's potential and knew that it could tear down his magic defense. It certainly wasn't the only way to defeat Magus, but Magus identified it as a threat never-the-less. Notice the flashback in 590AD, when Cyrus was killed and Glenn was turned into Frog. Magus confronted Cyrus (and the Masamune) confidently (and a bit cocky, almost), and he certainly didn't act afraid of the Masamune. Thus, I would wager that although the Masamune could harm Magus, he wasn't all that threatened by it. He was swatting just one more fly that stood in his way by breaking the Masamune.
Now here's the speculative part (on my end)...
I think that the sword was never completed in 600AD in the pre-Chrono Trigger "original" timeline. We hear no mention of it past 600AD, and it seemingly doesn't exist in 1000AD (although the broken blade may have been at the Hero's Grave; I can't remember if they actually acknowledge that in-game before the Hero's Grave is completed). So after 590AD it just lied broken, never to be used against Magus.
Never-the-less, Frog was able to overcome the defenses of Magus' Castle and kill Magus even without the Masamune. We know that this happened in the "original" timeline anyway, we just don't know the details.
But Crono and company, not really knowing the true events surrounding Magus' demise, helped fix the Masamune and accompanied Frog in his quest. No matter what happened, Magus was slain/defeated/lost to time in both timelines and his attempt to defeat Lavos failed.
So here's the thing... Did Guardia fall in 1005AD BECAUSE Crono and company reforged the Masamune in 600AD? Is it likely that the fall wouldn't have occurred has they not forged the Masamune? Is the fall of Guardia their own doing?
Had they not have reforged the Masamune, Magus would still have been defeated and the events would have been pretty much occurred the same. The outcome would be no different (or hardly any different).
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Wait, where is it stated that the Ruby Knife was thrust into the Masamune in the pre-game time line? Because while it is a way for the sword to have been completed, it doesn't say if it was THE way that it was completed in the original events. After all, we Melchior wasn't imprisoned at Mt. Woe since we see him at the Ocean Palace with the other Gurus during the flashback, so he might as well had the time to finish the sword in a less radical way.
Likewise, where does it says Frog went to Magus's Castle in the original events? Not to mention that at the time he was still grieving Cyrus's demise, and it was only seeing the repaired Masamune that snapped him out of it to confront Magus, so it's more likely Frog didn't stormed Magus's castle in the original events.
As for the Masamune and the Fall of Guardia, well, in a way they reforging it did lead into it. Since reforging it meant:
Fighting Magus with it, which as a result ends with him being plunged into Antiquity and they to Prehistory, getting involved with the Tyrano Lair events, resulting in finding the gate to Antiquity, resulting in all the changed events we see in-game, ending with Dalton sucked into the gate to the Dimensional Vortex of 1000AD, and thus in a position to take on Guardia.
So pretty much, yes, they fixing it lead to a butterfly effect of Guardia having it's days numbered, go figure. :roll:
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But wasn't Frog known in history as the one who defeated Magus, even before Crono and company got involved?
As for the Ruby Knife / Masamune connection, that may be true. Either way, all the guru's were present at the Ocean Palace and sent throughout time. This includes Janus being sent to the Middle Ages as well. Either way, the Masamune exists by the time 600AD and that's really all that matters. :P
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No, no one is credited as having defeated Magus before Crono and co. storm the place themselves.
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Flash forward in time. In 590AD Magus killed Cyrus and broke the Masamune. He knew of it's potential and knew that it could tear down his magic defense. It certainly wasn't the only way to defeat Magus, but Magus identified it as a threat never-the-less. Notice the flashback in 590AD, when Cyrus was killed and Glenn was turned into Frog. Magus confronted Cyrus (and the Masamune) confidently (and a bit cocky, almost), and he certainly didn't act afraid of the Masamune. Thus, I would wager that although the Masamune could harm Magus, he wasn't all that threatened by it. He was swatting just one more fly that stood in his way by breaking the Masamune.
I wouldn't say the Masamune wasn't a threat to Magus. It was Cyrus that wasn't a threat to Magus, because he didn't know how to use the magical weapon to its fullest potential. Or, another possibility is that Cyrus was an enormous threat to Magus because he didn't know how to control the awesome weapon, and Magus was forced to destroy them both to protect himself. I think the latter is the more likely event, from a narrative standpoint. Otherwise, why not just slap Cyrus aside and take the weapon from him? Granted, I'm thinking beyond established canon here.
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Flash forward in time. In 590AD Magus killed Cyrus and broke the Masamune. He knew of it's potential and knew that it could tear down his magic defense. It certainly wasn't the only way to defeat Magus, but Magus identified it as a threat never-the-less. Notice the flashback in 590AD, when Cyrus was killed and Glenn was turned into Frog. Magus confronted Cyrus (and the Masamune) confidently (and a bit cocky, almost), and he certainly didn't act afraid of the Masamune. Thus, I would wager that although the Masamune could harm Magus, he wasn't all that threatened by it. He was swatting just one more fly that stood in his way by breaking the Masamune.
I wouldn't say the Masamune wasn't a threat to Magus. It was Cyrus that wasn't a threat to Magus, because he didn't know how to use the magical weapon to its fullest potential. Or, another possibility is that Cyrus was an enormous threat to Magus because he didn't know how to control the awesome weapon, and Magus was forced to destroy them both to protect himself. I think the latter is the more likely event, from a narrative standpoint. Otherwise, why not just slap Cyrus aside and take the weapon from him? Granted, I'm thinking beyond established canon here.
Well in the scene where they fight, Magus seems to be very uncaring. He beat the shit out of both of them and was like let's insult to injury. He basically lulz their lives to complete devastation. Killing Cyrus as punishment for fighting him, breaking the Masamune to teach them a lesson, and changing Glenn to a frog because he thought it'd be funny.... it kinda was. That's why we love him, he's such a douche lol
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The scene is just cinematic to me, it is an cut-scene after all. Trash the foe, burn his house, beat his mother ...um... I mean crack his weapon and leave with a flick of the cape, it fits a villain like Magus perfectly. As for if he thought the sword is a threat to him, it doesn't matter much.