Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion => Topic started by: ChaosWolf on August 27, 2011, 11:42:49 pm
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I dunno why folks usually seem to dislike/ignore Ayla so much, if the usual comments in fandom-memes and "favorite character list" things are any clue - even Robo and Frog get more affection than her, who more often than not just gets a "meh, whatever". I mean, she's a badass fighter, which was rare for female characters in those days, especially in RPGs. She was to RPG's what Samus was to action games, in a way.
Plus, I mean, how can you not love someone who basically goes "Who needs weapons and magic? Imma beat your ass with my bare freaking hands!" That takes balls beyond measure, especially when you're facing down monsters, mutants, and a cosmic horror intent on causing the Apocalypse, to say "I'm gonna punch that thing right in the face."
It always threw me, Ayla and Kino being a canonical couple, since judging from their official artwork, she looks to be around twenty, while he barely passes for fourteen or so. Guess the ladies liked boys young back then. Seeing the two of them side-by-side, if I didn't know about their relationship ahead of time, I would've guess they were siblings, not romantically involved.
Explaining how Ayla has perfectly-smooth skin, shiny white teeth, and a salon-quality perm millions of years before the invention of razors and shampoo, however, is a puzzle I have yet to unravel.
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Well, she's probably my favorite character to play as. Fastest out of everyone, the only one to have a higher critical rate is Crono, and that's because of Rainbow. Yes, her techs generally suck, but why bother when you're doing almost a thousand per round by the time you're level fifty?
As for her actual 'character,' I think she's interesting enough, but not exactly one that I'd write home about. I will admit that I've got an idea for a fanfiction between her and Flea, though. It's put off to the side, but only for now.
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At first I couldn't get past the idiotic accent, but eventually she became my favorite CT playable character. Ayla's great. She's got the clearest and arguably best philosophy, she's the best physical fighter, and she pushed the boundaries for what female PCs in RPGs were allowed to do and what contexts they were allowed to do it in.
All around ace tops character.
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As for her actual 'character,' I think she's interesting enough, but not exactly one that I'd write home about. I will admit that I've got an idea for a fanfiction between her and Flea, though. It's put off to the side, but only for now.
Do tell, do tell. Flea is my favorite NPC.
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She's my favorite. And she's also unarguably the best fighter. No other character can regularly pump out 9999s without breaking a sweat. :)
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Are you kidding, man? XD She's the best I adore; my Number 1 SPRINGTIME OF YOUTH Idol! Even Crimson Echoes kept her in high regards. Hell, I even reference her and write about her in places. For instance:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,9382.0.html
‘Twas a time of omen when the children of cold blood fell to the might of a woman, who challenged them against all odds. She was the epitome of strength, courage, and -- above all else -- mercy. She was the prayer of the lands that sang the joys of livelihood, and she was the dream that awakened the hearts when the red fire burned the skies.
She was their Goddess. But with every light that captured hearts, she also awakened the darkness that lay dormant within them, those wicked shadows she fought her entire life. Her very nightmares.
And in another bubble he saw innocence: children of tribes playing in the grass with a blonde woman, and her husband. Ayla, this beautiful, said the man; Kino wish beautiful last. And as Adamus saw himself lifting the Frozen Flame, continents all across the planet burned for his own amusement.
Ah, so you like Flea? Haha, I once decided to make a fanfiction movie about the character's origins. (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,8591.0.html) But apparently, no one was interested... *dies*
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At first I couldn't get past the idiotic accent, but eventually she became my favorite CT playable character. Ayla's great. She's got the clearest and arguably best philosophy, she's the best physical fighter, and she pushed the boundaries for what female PCs in RPGs were allowed to do and what contexts they were allowed to do it in.
All around ace tops character.
Exactly. Which is why the common fandom reaction of dislike at worst and indifference at best so baffles me. Sure, the Hulk Speak was a bit odd compared to the others, but it fit her time-setting plausibly well - Frog was the only person in the game to talk like a reject from the Royal Shakespearian Theatre Company, and nobody seems to find that strange.
I dunno, maybe they just find her intimidating? I mean, considering that when the party first encounter her, she appears to shove Crono up against the wall and starts dryhumping him...
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I think contemporary fandom's indifferent reaction to Ayla stems from the fact that she isn't as well developed as the other main characters in canon. An example of this is her unlikely relationship with the very young-looking Kino. This is never really explained. Maybe it can't be due to her simplistic dialect. It also doesn't help that she joins the party for good very late in the game, limiting character development options. Glenn also doesn't join permanently until the game's halfway point, but we at least see him as a playable character early on - plus we have to go on a lengthy fetch quest (the Masamune/Hero Medal) to get him to join.
Another thing against her is that she never really gets beat up outside the mechanics of the game. In short, tragedy never seems to touch her. We see Glenn witness Cyrus' death and be transformed into a frog. We see Robo get beat up by fellow robots. We see a haunted Lucca go back in time to prevent her mother's accident. We see Marle go into a tantrum with her father. We see young Janus lose his innocence and become lost in darkness. We see Crono... die. What happens to Ayla that is so terrible compared with what the other characters go through? At worst, she seems to take a thoughtful attitude at the prospect of the Reptites' demise when Azala is defeated. She also seems to lament the fact that the land is growing colder after Lavos' impact, though we see no visual evidence of this in the game. It doesn't compare. Average fans view of Ayla is a direct reflection of her limited development as a character as opposed to her ability to dish out huge damage in fights.
Its taken more dedicated fans to explore Ayla's character outside of canon to make her compelling. We've seen that in this very thread, in fact. I'm also developing Ayla well outside the bounds of established canon in my novel series, though that part is only in the early outlining stages at present.
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I think contemporary fandom's indifferent reaction to Ayla stems from the fact that she isn't as well developed as the other main characters in canon. Another thing against her is that she never really gets beat up outside the mechanics of the game. In short, tragedy never seems to touch her. Average fans view of Ayla is a direct reflection of her limited development as a character as opposed to her ability to dish out huge damage in fights.
Its taken more dedicated fans to explore Ayla's character outside of canon to make her compelling.
Fair enough. I guess, after seeing the CE walkthroughs and seeing how brilliantly they handled all the various characters getting their "time in the spotlight", I supposed I was kinda riding the high and suddenly seeing the apathy of the fanbase was a bit of a downer.
Ayla has so much potential left unexplored (and like most of the rest of the series, Squeenix's lawyers seem determined to keep it unexplored, but that's a rant for another time), so it's just disappointing to see Magus Fanfic #2375 or Marle Portrait #117 while others like Ayla and Robo and such get left behind...
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Lennis, that was well-said.
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If you go to Ayla's time as soon as it's available and talk to the people there, you find out Ayla found Kino on a mountain when he was a baby and raised him. Chanting/Singing Mountain in the Prerelease was obviously going to be Ayla's post-Crono resurrection sidequest that was canned.
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I agree with Lennis about Ayla's relative lack of conflict, too.
Robo's conflicts are less apparent than that of the rest of the crew, but he certainly has one, and his awesome role in CC makes him quite compelling. I wish CC had taken a similar route with Ayla; symbolically, she's a really interesting figure in the philosophy of the game as a whole.
My favorite interpretation of Ayla is in the "existential reading of Chrono Trigger" series, where she is very aptly linked to the Ubermensch:
To begin with, Ayala's heroism is essentially generative. She's not out to sacrifice herself for anybody, nor is she primarily concerned with destroying the reptites who are competing with the humans to become the dominant species. Instead, Ayla is a fiercely creative force. She is the human race's first great leader and the biological ancestor of great leaders to come. She possesses the Dreamstone, which we will later learn to be the source of human love and hate; in this way she acts as the creator of the human value system. Ayla fights to protect her species, but is willing to severely punish other humans for violating her ethical code, to the point of beating her own boyfriend for stealing (note that this latter act makes the rest of the party uncomfortable because they come from a less primal ethical climate). Like Nietzsche's ubermensch, Ayla worships strength and will as the highest virtues; the game's spin on these values indicates a compromised liberal version of Nietzsche's philosophy, however.
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If you go to Ayla's time as soon as it's available and talk to the people there, you find out Ayla found Kino on a mountain when he was a baby and raised him. Chanting/Singing Mountain in the Prerelease was obviously going to be Ayla's post-Crono resurrection sidequest that was canned.
Ayla found Kino as a baby, raised him, then later married him... I never knew that until now. I thought she just had some kinda thing for young boys, not some kinda pseudo-incest thing with her adoptive son... :shock:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WifeHusbandry
Even though it's reversing the trope's typical genders, it's still kinda creepy. I'm honestly not sure how to react to that particular revelation. :?
Switching rails here... Singing Mountain as Ayla's sidequest... yeah, that would've been awesome. Wonder what might've occured there, and why they nixed it?
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I like to think it was something to strengthen Kino and Ayla's relationship, maybe even to reveal that Ayla found Kino there instead of Mystic Mountain. Maybe even something to explain her Dino Tail tech as something like a summon.
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Ayla would probably have a been a young child herself when she discovered Kino. I see no reason why a young girl could not take a motherly, or at least sisterly, responsibility for an even younger child. This does not, however, invoke an incestuous relationship. It is not uncommon for there to be a large age difference between lovers.
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She's my favorite as well. I wrote her a special scene in Crimson Echoes if you take her to the final dungeon the first time you visit. It's in the CE Memorial videos.
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Dear god, this is prehistoric times we're talking about. In our prehistoric times, far more questionable relationships than this were necessarily common. There's nothing creepy or even remotely unorthodox about Ayla & Kino.
Though I will offer my opinion that a badass such as Ayla deserves a greater match than Kino, who is an annoying and troublesome character.
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That's interesting that the perceived limited development for Ayla is taken to push people away from liking her, at least from fan-dom. From my perspective, because she hasn't had the 'major person conflict' or a thorough set development ingame, that leaves her as an open slate. Or rather, she just needs a few more details noted about what is revealed about her.
Though now that my head is running on a few things, it does occur to me people may not write much about her due to the sensitive nature of dealing with direct ancestry in Chrono Trigger time lines.
Also, Ayla and Kino's relationship is pretty odd, and given that Ayla favors strength above all, leads me to wonder what aspect of Kino holds her affection over someone like say, Crono. As even in game Kino misunderstood Ayla's regard for Crono.
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Ayla was always in my party. Battle-wise I thought she was the only character who could match Crono's strength. She had a very cool and sexy design too.
However, it is obvious though that her character was not developped enough. She doesn't even have a sidequest at the end. We don't know how she became chief and have no idea how her relation with Kino evolved. This is I believe the reason she isn't so popular.
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Though I will offer my opinion that a badass such as Ayla deserves a greater match than Kino, who is an annoying and troublesome character.
Agreed. She's supposed to be all about strength and bravery and whatnot, yet she's inexplicably enamored with a cowardly weakling.
It makes no sense. Makes me think of another unexplained pairing of hot badass blonde and utter dork - Cyborg 18 and Krillin from DBZ... which is another Toriyama-driven piece of work. Coincidence?
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Kino is not as weak as some of you are making him out to be. He fails to understand the nature and intentions of Crono & Co. as clearly as Ayla, but Ayla is exceptional. (You try comprehending the cultural vectors of visitors from outside your era.) He may lack some of Ayla's mental fortitude and open-mindedness, but Ayla is not a good comparison because she is so exceptional. It's very unlikely that Kino is lacking relative to other members of the Iokan tribe. And it's almost certain that he doesn't lack physical strength. Any major deficiencies on Kino's part, be they mental or physical, would contradict Ayla's character, and thus are very unlikely.
As I was verifying my comments by checking the retranslation, I found an interesting tidbit:
Ayla: Kino man......
If Ayla die, have baby, whatever, Kino chief.
In the Woolsey version, the "have baby, whatever" part is missing. The "whatever" in particular is disappointing, because it suggests that the Japanese person who wrote the line took it as an absolute given that a female who gives birth would lose her positions of societal authority. I'm glad Woolsey pared it down.
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As I was verifying my comments by checking the retranslation, I found an interesting tidbit:
Ayla: Kino man......
If Ayla die, have baby, whatever, Kino chief.
In the Woolsey version, the "have baby, whatever" part is missing. The "whatever" in particular is disappointing, because it suggests that the Japanese person who wrote the line took it as an absolute given that a female who gives birth would lose her positions of societal authority. I'm glad Woolsey pared it down.
I think the "whatever" in this case refers to any scenario wherein she might be otherwise unavailable. "have baby" might mean the actual birth, during which she obviously wouldn't be acting as chief. The line is not specifically about giving birth; it's about cases in which Ayla could not act as chief out of absolute necessity. She can't do it when she's dead; she can't do it when she's in labor; and she can't when she's traipsing about prehistory and beyond with Chrono & Co.
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Yes, you're right, but that doesn't preclude the point I made, which was that childbirth was apparently a matter-of-fact disqualifier for the position of Ioka Chief in the mind of whomever wrote the line. I also doubt, as you infer, that the loss of status would have been temporary. Ayla, after all, was away from the tribe for various periods during her adventures with Crono & Co. That line didn't have the air of Kino becoming "acting" chief. Plus, childbirth in most societies throughout history has indeed been grounds to strip females of their societal powers.
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That's a good point, I gotta say when I first played the game I thought the chief was going to be a man, and i'm glad Ayla was chief. Women had some power then! If she would be stripped of her title for having a baby I think its hardly fair but I understand women generally brought up the children while the fathers hunted and did whatever they did back then. I suppose it would be hard to be chief and care for a child at the same time, but I don't see why she couldnt just make Kino watch the kid :D I guess it might be rules of the tribe, thats generally how our history works.
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So Ayla chose Kino because he'd be the only man willing to listen to her advice or "let" her still have power
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That's an interesting possibility (if a disappointing one), but wouldn't it be more likely that she chose him because she likes him and because he's one of the strongest in Ioka?
That's just my thought; I know of no canonical answer.
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So Ayla chose Kino because he'd be the only man willing to listen to her advice or "let" her still have power
Yeah. There was a word for that, but I can't seem to remember -- something about King being "just for show", while the person pulling the strings is someone else. However...
That's an interesting possibility (if a disappointing one), but wouldn't it be more likely that she chose him because she likes him and because he's one of the strongest in Ioka?
That's just my thought; I know of no canonical answer.
XD You guys are pushing logic through sheer physical strength here, in which case Kino would already be a dud, wimp and loser. There's obviously more to the character than brute strength.
Think about it for a second: Ayla might be the strongest which gives her privilege to be the tribe leader, and the successor could be anyone but Kino in this regard. However, Kino didn't depend on physical strength. When even the smartest of Reptites or toughest of cavemen challenged you to a straightforward battle, Kino would get cunning and make you chase through the woods, playing games with you. He always stays cautious, observing your movements, treading carefully, staying focused and snatching things that you most need. Also, he is relentless and agile.
Ayla was wise in her decision. A strong man who is nothing but a strong man makes no leader, and eventually shove his people to extinction; a true leader needs to take tough, cunning decisions to secure his people, and Kino was the best for the job. :)
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Strongest, not only in body but in mind.
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That's a clever insight to the character, tush.
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According to historian Robert Graves the whole idea of a male dominated caveman tribe was incorrect, he argues that before nation states arose almost all tribes were matriarchies. This is somewhat surprising to most people considering how much they have heard about ruthless tyrants in history subjugating the weaker persons to their violent whim using their superior physical strength. It could be that the writers of Chrono trigger were, not surprisingly, better read than most on alternative views of history and sought to elaborate on the what the relationship would be like between prehistoric man and his more dominant female master.
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It's a tempting possibility, for it sets precedent and undermines a wide swath of sexist arguments from another direction--which can only help. But tempting possibilities deserve just as much skepticism as the rest. Previously I had accepted the popular myth of matriarchal societies in ancient times, yet in my curiosity I've looked into this proposition a fair bit over the years and found no evidence at all that these societies ever actually existed. I can't name a single known society that entrusted females with conspicuous power, outside of modern times. Even societies which maintained key religious roles for females, or purported to worship the female form or its reproductive ability, did not apparently entrust executive power to females, nor did they apparently invest females with the same civil liberties as males.
Either my studies, by their incompleteness, are missing significant instances of ancient female empowerment, or the historical record itself, by its own incompleteness, is missing the same...or...we are living in unprecedented times and the actual societal empowerment of females is completely new.
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Honestly, I think the hierarchy of the Iokans is more about who is the most able in more ways than not. Ayla would be a prime candidate for pretty much any sort of society, were she adapted to that era's standards. Physically, rationally and philosophically she's superior to pretty much everyone of that era, save Azala, to whom she still outdoes in physical prowess. With just how able she is, it's of little wonder that she's chief; she rules her tribe, and does so for good reason.
Kino, it seems, is able to take notice of things overlooked by most, such as the amount of attention Ayla seems to be giving the three that arrive, especially Crono, who he more than likely perceives as competition as a mate, not just the childish jealousy that it's made out to be in-game. He also managed to take the Gate Key without anyone noticing- given, they were all hammered, but still- so he had some measure of dexterity, not to mention what had to have been distinct cleverness, as displayed in the Tyranno Lair, where he leads a group of humans out of the stronghold with, apparently, nobody getting hurt. To do that in a castle full of dinosaurs would take some brains, not to mention brass balls. Based on that, he would probably have ended up becoming the next chief, even if Ayla hadn't connected with him as she did. Though in comparison to Ayla he may have been a weakling- then again, the only one on your team, and probably in the entire world, who isn't just that is Crono- he was by no means incapable. Therefore, it would make sense that Ayla would have said that he was to rule if she died at some point, since she trusted him and his abilities to lead the Iokans.
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That's generally my interpretation, too.
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That's generally my interpretation, too.
Works for me too. And BTW, nice sig, Lord J... very appropriate for this thread.
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What can I say? She's the baddest of Prehistory. =)
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What can I say? She's the baddest of Prehistory. =)
And possibly the rest of Time too, depending who you ask.
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She is the one reason that Lavos is afraid of being punched in the face.
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She is the one reason that Lavos is afraid of being punched in the face.
Which says a lot, considering that he basically has no face.
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Ayla the ubermensch is definitely awesome. The only reason I didn't use her consistently is because she makes the game less of a challenge at times.
Ayla was always in my party. Battle-wise I thought she was the only character who could match Crono's strength. She had a very cool and sexy design too.
However, it is obvious though that her character was not developped enough. She doesn't even have a sidequest at the end. We don't know how she became chief and have no idea how her relation with Kino evolved. This is I believe the reason she isn't so popular.
I always felt that prehistory in general could've been more filled out. I mean there is a story arc and some interesting stuff, but the whole eastern side of the map is left empty.
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However, it is obvious though that her character was not developped enough. She doesn't even have a sidequest at the end. We don't know how she became chief and have no idea how her relation with Kino evolved. This is I believe the reason she isn't so popular.
I always felt that prehistory in general could've been more filled out. I mean there is a story arc and some interesting stuff, but the whole eastern side of the map is left empty.
Glad to see I wasn't alone in noticing this distinct oversight. Or was it an oversight? It's been suggested elsewhere as being possible - and an idea that I agree with - that either time constraints or memory space prevented them from having as much content for each of the characters as they wanted, and for whatever reason, Ayla's stuff was the first one to hit the choppingblock instead of the rest.