Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Sir Frog on July 01, 2005, 08:24:43 pm
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The Entity clearly wishes to change the course of history. But how much of history has the Entity experienced? Is the Entity's consciousness in Crono's time (meaning that the Day of Lavos is just the probable future)? Or is the Entity's consciousness actually in Crono's future, years after the day of Lavos?
This may seem like a trivial question, but it isn't. If the present for the Entity is 1000 A.D., then the Entity has a motive to alter the past: to avoid the Day of Lavos. However, if the Entity's consciousness is actually in Crono's future, why would the entity even bother to send Crono on his journey? Wouldn't Crono just save an alternate timeline and, in doing so, send the Entity's consciousness to the DBT? Now, before someone argues that the Entity's consciousness transcends all timelines, let me ask this: Why is the Entity so eager to save Crono's timeline if there are bound to be many others (an infinite number perhaps) that are satisfactory to the Entity?
I have a follow-up question, too. It seems to me that the Entity is capable of doing more than just creating time gates. For instance, the consensus here is that the Entity is responsible for Marle's temporary disappearance in 600 A.D. But if the Entity has that power, why not send Queen Zeal and the Gurus to that demension and avoid the Day of Lavos altogether?
Forgive me if these issues have already been discussed and resolved; I am new to the Chrono Compendium.
~ Sir Frog (aka dacb1984)
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I have a follow-up question, too. It seems to me that the Entity is capable of doing more than just creating time gates. For instance, the consensus here is that the Entity is responsible for Marle's temporary disappearance in 600 A.D. But if the Entity has that power, why not send Queen Zeal and the Gurus to that demension and avoid the Day of Lavos altogether?
Well my guess is that if the Entity had that power there would be no CT or CC, or it would be some kind of harvest moon (without actual interesting story) so, I assume that the Entity has no power over Lavos and that Lavos, who altered the human process of evolution made the human somewhat "immune" to the entity's power, so it had to use subtle event so human could get to save the planet.
For When, I have no idea, never though of that before, I though it trancended time
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The entity would exist in the future, past the day of Lavos. It would be trying to change the past, so that the day of lavos would not happen. Would the entity be sent to the DBT when time is changed? Yes, a version of it would be. But there would still be a version of the entity that was not.
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That's the response I feared. Doesn't that strike you as...lame?
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Lame...? How so?
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Now, before someone argues that the Entity's consciousness transcends all timelines, let me ask this: Why is the Entity so eager to save Crono's timeline if there are bound to be many others (an infinite number perhaps) that are satisfactory to the Entity?
Well, it doesn't have to transcend all timelines, just the game timeline (Lavos Timeline and Keystone). Gaspar for example does transcend the timeline without having access to other timelines, and he did witness both the ruined future and the future that Crono created.
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Yeah, sometime in the future the Entity is dead/about to die/knows it's going to die...So it begins to start the events that occur to Crono in the new Chrono Trigger timeline.
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My guess is that the Entity operates on a different progression of time than we perceive, such as that of the actual progression from timeline to timeline. I wonder what exactly you'd call that?
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My guess is that the Entity operates on a different progression of time than we perceive, such as that of the actual progression from timeline to timeline. I wonder what exactly you'd call that?
I call it hypertime. (See my "conceptual framework" thread on the Time board--when it's ready, that is!) Of course, I don't claim to have come up with the name. I believe the term is used in the Superman universe to explain a bunch of discrepencies.
But as far as hypertime is concerned in the Chronoverse, well, give me some time to write down my thoughts. And then check in on the aforementioned thread.
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For instance, the consensus here is that the Entity is responsible for Marle's temporary disappearance in 600 A.D. But if the Entity has that power, why not send Queen Zeal and the Gurus to that demension and avoid the Day of Lavos altogether?
I think Lavos interferes with the Entity's control, limits it's power. The Entity, if it was responsible for this at all, could make the Queen's disappearance look like the cause of Marle's disappearance, thus being able to... "slip it by" Lavos.
I also think Marle went to the Darkness Beyond Time in her disappearance anyway - the Entity didn't have much say in it.
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I kind of like to think of the Entity as an instigator, if you will. Obviously *it* is powerful, but I like to think that it just didn't want to get it's hands dirty in order to save the future, so it kind of set up the events for Crono to do it.
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Maybe the Entity's power is weakened as the game goes on with all the gates it created. That still doesn't really answer anything though... So maybe Lavos was protecting the Queen too prevent the Entity from getting rid of her.
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Hmm, in case you didn't notice the Entity was DYING in the Lavos Timeline. The 400 year reunion hints towards it. Let's see if I can give you guys a qoute of what they say... Ah, here.
Robo: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not
be responsible for the Gates.
Marle: What do you mean?
Robo: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all
this. The different events over time, that we have witnessed. It is almost
as if some entity wanted to relive its past.
Ayla: Ayla know! When people die, elders say, see whole life pass by!
Frog: 'Tis true that mortals do relive their most profound memories before
death claimeth them. Yet those memories most often are sad ones.
Robo: Thinking things like "If only I had done this," or "I shouldn't have
done that..." triggers unpleasant, old memories.
Marle: Will that happen when our time comes?
Lucca: Probably... who knows?
Marle: Is there a point in time you'd want to return to, Lucca?
Lucca: No... not really...
Marle: I'm sorry, was that something I shouldn't have asked?
Lucca: It's ok, it's just something I don't like to think about too much.
Frog: Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of this Entity...
Magus: So who is this Entity?
Robo: It is unknown, whose memories these are. It may be something beyond our
comprehension. Our journey may come to an end when we finally discover the
identify of the Entity. Shall we turn in for the night?
They constantly discuss about seeing your whole life pass by. The entity just needs to focus on a certain memory... And viola, we have a Gate!
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True. So if the future is changed does that mean the Entity isn't dying any more or does it still die?
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In the future, if the Time Devourer is unleashed, the Entity doesn't have a chance to go into a dying mode, it ceases to exist. Thus, no gates. The Dimensionel Distortions on Opassa Beach are there simpley because it was where the Dimensions split... How can I explain this?
Imagine there are like strings holding the dimensions together. On Opassa Beach, the strings are weaker, making it possible to cross the dimensions. Same for the Dead Sea\Sea of Eden, the Time Crash weakened the the "strings" there.
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Yes, but Serge and co. stop the Time Devourer so the entity still lives. My point is though that if the Entity is dying in CT when the future is changed does that mean the Entity lives or dies?
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No, not yet. Dying, is well, the process of death. The End of Time begins when the Planet dies. In Home World, though, the Planet dosen't get a chance to die or go into a state of dying, it just ceases to exist. Another World, due to the lack of a certain blue haired Arbiter, is lucky enough to avoid that fate, as Lavos' evolution isn't complete without Serge. The Lavos Timeline, the future will meet it's untimly doom, and in the ideal timeline, as far as we know, the Planet will die a natural death.
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Ok... so no matter what the Entity dies? Is this what your tring to say?
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The Planet lives. Thus, it will die. Let me qoute Miguel:
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Don't you know...? There's nothing in the world as ruthless or impartial as
death. All living matter ages over time and eventually dies... No matter how mighty or tiny its life force... So being alive means you're creeping closer to death with every second...
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There. The only difference is, the Ideal Timeline offers a more positive death (As odd as that may sound). Our Planet, too, will die in a few billion years. All of the deaths caused by Lavos and his forms mark a dark, untimely death, destroying the dreams and hopes of all the people of the planet.
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I see. Now I understand.
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Lets just say, the due to Crono actions, the entity will not be killed by Lavos. And that is what the entity wanted to avoid. Thats not to say in a future game, it won't be threated agian.
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If the End of Time is literally the end of time, then it doesn't depend on the fate of our planet, but it seems to be closed off when Lavos is killed. The only thing still resembling it is the Bend of Time.
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If the End of Time is literally the end of time, then it doesn't depend on the fate of our planet, but it seems to be closed off when Lavos is killed. The only thing still resembling it is the Bend of Time.
but the bend of time is nowhere near the end of time you can go out with a ship, it seems more like point of least ressitance but not in time but space.
Is the little guy spekkio?
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Well, the little guy's appearance doesn't change no matter how strong you get, so that's unlikely. The only way for that to be Spekkio is if that's what he actually looks like.
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Bend of Time is to dimensions, as the End of Time is to time. At least thats what I think.
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Then why is it called Bend of Time?
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If you think its the end of time, tell me why its called something different, wheres Gaspar, where spekkio, etc etc.
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Huh? I just thought the Bend of Time was just that, a Bend fo Time. I don't think it has anything to do with Dimensions.
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Guess I got a bit mixed up, with the talk of Spekkio, etc etc. Dimensions are time spliting and one bending off into a different direction, right? Thats one of the reason I think it has to do with dimensions...
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No problem.
And I never thought of dimensions bending off... if you think about it I suppose the Bend of Time could have something to do with dimensions.
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Bend of Time is to dimensions, as the End of Time is to time. At least thats what I think.
Well the is only 2 dimension but so many portal and all those portal were link to where you already went kinda like the portal from the EoT which appeared after you passed through the portal
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If we're talking about odd dimensionel places, how about the Corridors of Time in RD? Any idea about that? They seem to show everyone's past, present, and future, a bit like the EoT.
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If we're talking about odd dimensionel places, how about the Corridors of Time in RD? Any idea about that? They seem to show everyone's past, present, and future, a bit like the EoT.
I think the Corridors of Time are quite similar to the Darkness Beyond Time or maybe Zurvan. Or more precisely, maybe the scenarists created the DBT/Zurvan concepts from the CoT when the remade RD into CC.
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Possibly. It's just intresting: Serge sees how he was born and how he'll die. Kid sees her life as Schala, Magil probably sees his life as a prince of Zeal and a leader of Mystics, as well as his death.
I guess anyone would want to go there. It allows you to disover secrets about your birth and how and when you'll die. Intresting place.
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Actually, based on it's Japanese name, it seems as though the Bend of Time may just be the End of Time (or perhaps another End of Time???).
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According to the time mechanics, Serge couldn't see how he dies since he hasn't got out of the CoT yet (well, except if he sees himself dying in the CoT...). But since he does see "infinite versions of himself", it must mean that he's seeing other dimensional versions of himself dying.
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Not to familar with the CoT, but it could be showing different ways he could die.
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No, he actually says he sees himself dying as an old man. Which fits perfectly, considering his grandson says the diary belonged to his grand-dad, meaning he must of been old enough to have children.
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If we're talking about odd dimensionel places, how about the Corridors of Time in RD? Any idea about that? They seem to show everyone's past, present, and future, a bit like the EoT.
Maybe not relevant, but the music piece played in most of Zeal is called "Corridors of Time"... Probably no connection, though.
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Who knows? CT did have some connections to CC.
After Lavos crashes in 65,000,000 BC, one of the Ioka villagers state that he found a weird red stone, but said it was warm, so he dropped it. Sounds to me like the Frozen Flame, espically since being as Ayla was given the Dreamstone in recognition of her being a chief, it must be rare, a mineral mined from the earth. Meaning if he found it on the ground, I can see how it's not Dreamstone, but the Frozen Flame. Plus, he wasn't corrupted because Lavos was still weak from the crash.
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[Ioka Hut, 65000000 B.C.]
[Man]
Found strange rock!
But feel icky when touch, so throw
away.
It never emantion it's red and it's probably snow
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Oh, my mind must of been playing tricks on me..
And since when is snow a rock?
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Easy, when DarkGizmo says it is. :)
Really it could be a part of Lavos or it could not be.
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Lavos is the ickiest thing there is, so a shard of him is icky, too, I guess.
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Lavos and icky, it just doesn't sound like you would call the most powerfulest being alive(Well ok he's not that powerful if he gets beat by a group of kids) in the Chrono universe icky, but whatever.
Then again we're dealing with primitive humans so I guess they would call a shard of him icky.
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Oh, my mind must of been playing tricks on me..
And since when is snow a rock?
Because He's from 65,000,00,000 BC do you really think he work try to figure what is was ? certainly not he head would go BOOM, so he said it was a rock because it's the onyl thing he knew that could be picked and throw (and it doesn't looked like bones or stuff like that)
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"he head would not go BOOM" when he'll try to figure that. He's got a brain, he can still understand things. If he'd be that stupid, he woulden't even know what a rock is.
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DarkGizmo it would have to be ice for him to call in a rock. I would think if he picked up snow he would same sand or dirt not rock. Plus I don't think it would get that cold that soon, it might but I don't think so.
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No, it dosen't. You actually SEE things are still pretty tropical in 65 Million BC by the end of Chrono Trigger.
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Yeah that is true, so it could not have been ice or snow.
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ok ok, maybe he had no other word for sand-dirt rock he always says rock and don't forget strange
For it's too ealry to snow, I think so too, but if the frozen flame was made to make people intelligent I doN,t think he would have touch it and then throw it away
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It can't be Dreamstone, it's far too rare. Thus, the only other icky material that remains is the Frozen Flame.
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It can't be Dreamstone, it's far too rare. Thus, the only other icky material that remains is the Frozen Flame.
Quote me someone telling the FF is icky and maybe or jsut that dreamstone is icky...
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Or another piece of Lavos that is unnamed and lost through out history. After all didn't Zeal rise to power because of a piece of Lavos, it never says its the Frozen Flame unless I missed something.
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No, it dosen't. You actually SEE things are still pretty tropical in 65 Million BC by the end of Chrono Trigger.
Yet some villagers in Ioka do say that the climate is getting colder and colder and that the surviving Reptites already began to hide in caves.
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Well I never talked to the villagers so I didn't know that.
Also I suspect they did have a word for sand or dirt, they are primative, but I don't think their that primative.
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well I couldn't be the frozen flame here's why : The frozen flame leviatate he would have mention that
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We don't know if it leviatates on its own or an outside force causes it to float.
Like I said though it could just be a piece of Lavos that was forgotten. After Lavos landed their could have been millions of tiny bits of him that were tossed all over the place.
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We don't know if it's icky, but neither do we know it's not icky.
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[Ioka Hut, 65000000 B.C.]
[Man]
Found strange rock!
But feel icky when touch, so throw
away.
[Woman]
Bright fire, Lavos, fall.
Get cold now.
[Woman]
No more Sweet Water.
Never happen before.
[Woman]
Less monster, now cold.
Less animal too.
well here's all the villager talking about the begining of a Cold Era
noy mention of tiny Lavos, either
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Maybe Lavos' fall somehow filled the rivers and lakes with dust from the volcanic area, that made the water undrink-worthy?
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that would lead to the death of the entire villages since they had no way to clean it up, they jsut say it doesn,t taste the same maybe it's just colder
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It would be getting colder cause the dust would be blocking out the sun.
Also even though they don't mention anymore bits of Lavos that does not mean tiny bits of Lavos didn't fall at all, more likely they fell into the ocean.
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It would be getting colder cause the dust would be blocking out the sun.
Also even though they don't mention anymore bits of Lavos that does not mean tiny bits of Lavos didn't fall at all, more likely they fell into the ocean.
well if they fall into the ocean he would not be able to get the "lavos bit" but I doN,t think Lavos shell would break up like this if it could substain the heat from entering the atmosphere
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Its not like his shell would have been completely destoried, just the tips of his spikes and such. A few would have landed on the land. And if you think something that big after landing would not have taken any damage then your mistaken. That would make him impossible to defeat.
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You never hitted the shell and the spikes ar eon the shell so it's not really that ahrd to believe
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Still we know that he breaks pieces off of himself, either that was when he landed or he did it himself. With the Frozen Flame I can see him doing it himself maybe but still parts of him are going to go flying after landing like that.
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Who's to say he was intellegent enough to guess a shard of himself would help him that much when he just landed?
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True we never know just how smart Lavos is, not to mention after landing like that I would suspect he would be more worried about that major headache. :P
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Headache? That fall probably gave him the amount of damage equalivent to cracking every bone in a human body. He might of been just a spawn at that time, making things worse. He needs a few weeks to recover before he can begin his quest for evolution.
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Too bad for him he couldn't call for the local extraplanetary doctor.
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Like he'd touch a creep like Lavos.
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Yeah I'm sure he would have come up with an excuse to get away from Lavos.
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How about: "I don't touch creatures who manipulate and destroy entire planets?"
I'm sure the Doctor's oath can make an exception this one time.
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Yeah I'm pretty sure too.