Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Other Topics and the Prerelease => Topic started by: Thought on February 07, 2011, 03:59:55 pm
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We knew almost nothing about the canceled third canonical game of the series except its name (actually, I think that was the only thing we knew); however, not much has been said about that so I thought I’d go ahead and throw the obvious out there. The title of the game reveals to us an item and its guiding concept.
In Chrono Trigger there was the titular item, which could be used to save Crono. Same with in Chrono Cross, except this time to save Schala. Given this pattern, it seems likely that in the third game there would have been a Chrono Break item that could have been employed to save someone.
The guiding concept of each game, however, is also revealed in the title. In Chrono Trigger the party focuses on an end goal of triggering a change to the timeline (and thus the use of the Chrono Trigger to save Crono is an analogy in minor of this). In Chrono Cross, there is a focus on crossing between dimensions and eventually crossing them into a single unified whole (and the formation of the Chrono Cross itself hints at the eventual ideal outcome of the game, the merging of the two dimensions). In short, “Trigger” and “Cross” can be understood as both noun and verb, both object within the game and an action within the game. Thus is seems likely that Chrono Break would have been the same: a “break” as an item and a “break” as an action.
At this point this modest speculation, however, would have to degrade into wild speculation to really go any further. But to offer a singular possibility, since a trigger is the start of something, and a crossing indicates continuation, it seems that a break would be the cessation of that. What would get “stopped” in the is utterly unknown, but given Lavos’ appearance in the first two games, it seems likely that he would be the threat that finally ends (though I have no idea how it would have made a comeback yet again to be broken).
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When I think of a timeline breaking, I think about things happening in a convoluted and unnatural order. Like (to an extent) Benjamin Button maybe, time reversing while perception remains linear, which I think would be a clean and quick way for Lavos to come back into the mix, perhaps as a Death Devourer or some other sort of new incarnation.
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Good theory.
It would be better if Lavos never comes back, again. LOL
Perhaps human versus human is a better idea, for example, Dalton can replace Blethasar to be the main antagonist.
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Wait. Belthasar was a protagonist? :o
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Just to empahsise, I think everything I am about to say reaches that "wild speculation" level. Which is to say, it is probably all bunk.
@ Bekkler: aye. Personally I figure that if Break had been made, it would have involved a breakdown of the timeline in general. While the TD threatened to consume Space-Time, it seemed like this would have been a collapse of the entire structure. Sort of like the White Light in the 5th season of the new Dr. Who: it wouldn't just kill things, it would stop them from having ever been.
@ utunnels: I suspect if a CB game had been made, they would have essentially pulled another CC. Which is to say, while Lavos would have been included, it wouldn't be clear main enemy. As Bekkler suggested, it might be that if the game focused on an unstable universe (for lack of a better word to get at temporal and dimensional breakdowns), then just as the game is getting resolved our old screechy pal pops out of nothingness to attempt to get one more stab at killing everything. But I suspect "human v human" would be the main focus of the game. Or, at least, human-like beings v human-like beings (starky may have been a hint that they were thinking about expanding the "world" in which the game was played to include a galactic scale). Though Dalton as an antagonist would probably be more for an interquel than a sequel. Just like they'd probably give us a new cast, I'd think the main villains would be largely different as well.
@ Boo: Belthasar was a punk. I'm not sure he counts as an antagonist, protagonist, or just a reagent, or if he can even be so classified. Well, he's f-ing insane, but beyond that, who knows...
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IMHO I think Lavos should remain a presence -- it is a kind of foil for humanity, and proves to be a very powerful one for the series. I'm not sure if it would feel sufficiently Chrono without Lavos.
I admit that I don't see a way to do that without it being completely hackneyed, as the Time Devourer was pushing it; but one option would be to delve into more of Lavos' mysteries, or, to go with the suggested humanity-centric theme, to use Lavos to explore questions about humanity's future rather than act as a looming threat.
Hah, @Boo, I am also fond of the Belthasar is At Least Partially A Raging Megalomaniac characterization. IMHO he is a much more intriguing and deep character that way. I like my Gurus of Reason crazy!
Another thought I've had, and one that may play into the fanfic idea I'm playing with, is that Gaspar was the characters' "guide" for CT and Belthasar kind of served that function for CC. That would suggest Melchior as a guide for CB; "life" dovetails nicely with a more humanity-focused plot. Melchior didn't have much of a role in CC that I observed, and I'd love to see more of him.
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Another thought I've had, and one that may play into the fanfic idea I'm playing with, is that Gaspar was the characters' "guide" for CT and Belthasar kind of served that function for CC. That would suggest Melchior as a guide for CB; "life" dovetails nicely with a more humanity-focused plot. Melchior didn't have much of a role in CC that I observed, and I'd love to see more of him.
That's actually really cool and would work with my stated "reverse/broken time Death Devourer" idea above.
People would be coming back from the dead all over the place. Babies disappearing, presumably being "unborn". Physical healed wounds and scars open back up. That'd make for one CRAZY apocalypse scenario, and would inevitably have some great big-picture healing the world (environmentalist/humanist) themes.
:lol:
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I agree with Bekkler. It's kind of something I've thought about a similar type of thing. I think Lavos should remain present in the Chrono games, maybe not directly but an essence, you know? It was a parasite. Parasites don't disappear so easy and spread rapidly. In the current fan-sequel I'm writing "Chrono Sovereign", Lavos's essence is the main evil. Its desire to consume and destroy the world infects those of weak mind and soul and transforms them, hence continuing to spread destruction and chaos throughout the ages.
I always envisioned Chrono Break as being sort of the connector of CC and CT in a sequel sense. In CC, it's a world where Crono, Lucca, and Marle are presumed dead, what if that wasn't 'supposed' to happen? I kind of envisioned the Chrono Break being a way to reset certain events in history and dimensions to heal the world so to speak.
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That's actually really cool and would work with my stated "reverse/broken time Death Devourer" idea above.
People would be coming back from the dead all over the place. Babies disappearing, presumably being "unborn". Physical healed wounds and scars open back up. That'd make for one CRAZY apocalypse scenario, and would inevitably have some great big-picture healing the world (environmentalist/humanist) themes.
:lol:
Oh man, time being reversed... that'd be very scary to imagine...
But would make for a totally cool idea! :twisted: Heh, I like it!
Problem I see... would be how it would be possible for stuff like the dead coming back and such, even if time were to flow backwards...? :?
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The same way it's possible to have an Egg that let's you travel through time? I don't understand the question.
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The same way it's possible to have an Egg that let's you travel through time? I don't understand the question.
Well, your idea was around...
Like (to an extent) Benjamin Button maybe, time reversing while perception remains linear,
People would be coming back from the dead all over the place. Babies disappearing, presumably being "unborn". Physical healed wounds and scars open back up. That'd make for one CRAZY apocalypse scenario, and would inevitably have some great big-picture healing the world (environmentalist/humanist) themes.
:lol:
That'd be it. Perceptions remains the same while time reverses. With idea of dead reviving and people then becoming 'unborn'... I don't get that either...
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Oh, well I was just tossing out ideas :lol:
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Acaia, if I am understanding Bekkler correctly, then it would be because the defining events were undone.
For example, a child's timeline looks like this: gestation, birth, childhood. If time runs backwards, then the child's timeline might look like this instead: childhood, birth, gestation. If this is a localized effect, the child would have gone backwards in time while everyone else went forwards. Thus, from the general perspective, the child's birth would have been undone. Hence, unborn. As for the living dead, similar instance. Of course, we might also imagine that these defining moments might be entirely erased. So the dead person's timeline might have originally looked like: live, die, remain dead. Under the new order, they would have lived, ---, and thus "remaining dead" would be rewritten.
Of course, as noted, all this enters into the realm of wild (but fun) speculation.
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Hence, the username 'Thought.'
Kinda a lame idea, but my first thought was that the resilient little Time Devourer, although what was left of it physically had been destroyed, the last of its essence had been spread among choice people for 'safekeeping', sort of. Lavos would have trusted the remainder of its essence to these people (human, Mystic, any others that might be put in), knowing that at least one of them would be able to utilize this power and amplify this strength, whether it would be done by killing the other possessors and taking their 'gift', or by simply gaining strength through more mundane means. Either way, at a certain point in the storyline, regardless of how strong they are, the essence inside of them would begin to rebel and take over the possessor, becoming a new being with at least most of its power back, and it wouldn't be until then that they would have a chance to actually fight Lavos, since it wouldn't have bothered showing itself until it deemed the time was right.
Just to make things easily familiarized, the 'gift' would have been spread throughout time, and there would only be a couple people at most for each era to be 'blessed.' Maybe something like Ayla's grandson, a lone shepherdess from the Middle Ages, a sailor and a mercenary that are from the present, a technician from the future, and a medicine woman from the Dark Ages. Obviously, time travel would be involved, considering the fact that there would be people from all those different eras, and it seems to be a favorite thing of Lavos's to mess with time anyway. Given that you could also choose to either let the other 'blessed' ones you meet to live or kill them, there would be an almost infinite amount of endings, especially if you were given the choice to play as one from whichever timeline you'd like.
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People would be coming back from the dead all over the place. Babies disappearing, presumably being "unborn". Physical healed wounds and scars open back up. That'd make for one CRAZY apocalypse scenario, and would inevitably have some great big-picture healing the world (environmentalist/humanist) themes.
:lol:
This kinda made me think of Philip K. Dick's Counter-Clock World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Clock_World)... I always found stories about reversed time taken literally a little too disturbing for my liking, he he :shock:
Maybe the Chrono Break is an artifact that breaks apart the dimensions again, for some reason. The fusion was done unproperly, the ideal timeline was not so ideal, or there were some unplanned consequences. Maybe Balthazar's crazy scheme backfired. There could be a lesson about the consequences of playing god with the lives of so many people. :twisted: maybe Kid and Schala get separated into different persons again, hence the theme of breaking apart... dunno, just playing around with the idea.
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Just think! Magic zombies! It's like the only thing not covered in CT and CC.
That book looks really interesting. I've always shied away from Philip K Dick because of the whole "creating a religion somehow even worse for the world than any existing one" thing. But it's good to remember that he was just a science fiction writer, and famous for a reason I guess.
If it's an artifact that breaks the dimensions, perhaps it's because there is some kind of limit to what the DBT can take in, then the "Chrono Break" would be like the last straw in a heavy load that breaks the worker's back.
I don't know about retconning the ideal timeline to be "not ideal", because that would nullify all of Cross, but one man's trash is another man's treasure, right? So who said it was ideal in the first place? Belthasar? The entity? Someone else? Depending on the source of the claim, perhaps it's ideal for Belthasar, but not for the planet? Or vice-versa.
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I don't know about retconning the ideal timeline to be "not ideal", because that would nullify all of Cross...
But that is proof right there that that is what would have happened. In CT we have a perfect future. In CC that future is rectonned to not be ideal, nullifying all of Trigger. Logically, then, the ideal timeline has to be subverted by break so as to nullify all of Cross. ;)
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I don't know about retconning the ideal timeline to be "not ideal", because that would nullify all of Cross...
But that is proof right there that that is what would have happened. In CT we have a perfect future. In CC that future is rectonned to not be ideal, nullifying all of Trigger. Logically, then, the ideal timeline has to be subverted by break so as to nullify all of Cross. ;)
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But wait, didn't Cross retconned itself at the end, partially? or... ... Maybe the product of splitting the dimensions with the Chrono Break is not exactly the same as it was before. The two worlds resulting from the split would not be Home and Another as we know them. Well, that would be even more confusing, wouldn't it?
Maybe another entity took advantage of the creation of the ideal timeline, something that got stronger with it? I'm thinking something that may exist outside the flow of time like Lavos. And they need to split the dimensions again to weaken this entity in order to defeat it.
Maybe Chrono Break could be about the consequences of dealing with dimensional traveling, somewhat among the lines of Crimson Echoes being about the consequences of dealing with Time Travel.
Just think! Magic zombies!
...and the Chrono Break is like a magical magnum, a la Resident Evil :D
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Well CT had 4th dimensional travel (time). Since timelines exist a spissitudinal distances away from each other and form dimensions, we could say that CC had 5th dimensional travel (dimensions). If we follow that, then, CB would have had 6th dimensional travel (whatever is to dimensions as dimensions are to timelines)
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had some thinking about Break possibilities lately, and I thought this topic would be more appropriate than others.
could combine 4th and 5th dimensional travel together instead up just up and jumping to 6th (which would be what, multi-verse?)
I think from Cross interviews it was expressed there was a lot of ambition, which, as found out the hard way, wasn't really achieved. However, with the latest consoles, perhaps some of those ambitions could be revisited, and wayhaps a new 'dream team' formed looking to combine several elements across the square/enix board.
Dont care to fish out the quote, but I remember one of the things said of Cross is wanting to take the approach to be able to recruit anyone. Only game I can really think of (though haven't played anything new in some time) that did that is FF Tactics. But rather than just have that out in the open as a game feature, it should have an effect on the story, why would you want to just recruit any joe-shmoe? So that got me thinking, 'what if the games journey endured a duration longer than a single lifetime?'
To me the course the story should eventually lead to exploring more into the origins of Lavos, (or lavoid beings) since it a) had to have come from somewhere and b) is capable of reproducing, so its not just a single instance or mishap exclusive to the world of Chrono-verse. Characters would then be on some epic-space/time/dimension journey and since it seems Lavoid's are capable, or have an effect on time manipulation, unraveling clues/progress would take a larger scale group than the average rpg brawler party, esp if they get committed to a particular set of events in a given time-line. (Course, I think it'd be awesome if more games extended event timelines to encompass more than one life time and considered character offsprings more anyway.)
So take some KH or Star Oceon space-travel, mix in some Tactics recruit anyone, shake up some mating 'catch-em all' with some sexy new team-battle tech mixing with a crazy story that would probably drive people insane working out. Extra points if the 'bad guys" have a kinda comp ai to them so as players mess with various timelines in the game, the computer may react back. Esp if the whole "recruit anyone" makes those characters expendable.
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That sounds like the opposite of what everyone says would have made Cross better (fewer characters, less Lavos, etc), but sounds freaking awesome. I'd play it!
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Maybe "Break" refers to breaking the cycle of destruction caused by Lavos' species... I certainly wouldn't mind going on an intergalactic Mama Lavos hunt
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If time breaks anyone can time travel and without telepods, amulets, time eggs and Lavos\Entity powers. Or other eras come to them. For example: 65mln bc lava in 1000 ad year and 12k bc snow in 600 ad year
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If time breaks anyone can time travel and without telepods, amulets, time eggs and Lavos\Entity powers. Or other eras come to them. For example: 65mln bc lava in 1000 ad year and 12k bc snow in 600 ad year
Then what if Break takes place in "fused" world? One where time exists on a single point and everything on the timeline happens at once?
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If time breaks anyone can time travel and without telepods, amulets, time eggs and Lavos\Entity powers. Or other eras come to them. For example: 65mln bc lava in 1000 ad year and 12k bc snow in 600 ad year
Then what if Break takes place in "fused" world? One where time exists on a single point and everything on the timeline happens at once?
So different pieces of each timeline find there way to one or many separate eras, or they all pop up in one single timeline altogether... hmm... I like the idea, and it kind of reminds me of FFXIII-2's time travel plot in a way. The only difference is that XIII-2 dealt with paradoxes of a locale, which were caused by the events of another time period.
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If time breaks anyone can time travel and without telepods, amulets, time eggs and Lavos\Entity powers. Or other eras come to them. For example: 65mln bc lava in 1000 ad year and 12k bc snow in 600 ad year
Then what if Break takes place in "fused" world? One where time exists on a single point and everything on the timeline happens at once?
So different pieces of each timeline find there way to one or many separate eras, or they all pop up in one single timeline altogether... hmm... I like the idea, and it kind of reminds me of FFXIII-2's time travel plot in a way. The only difference is that XIII-2 dealt with paradoxes of a locale, which were caused by the events of another time period.
Given that XIII-2 was based partially on Chrono Trigger (or so I've heard) that would actually be a pretty good ways to bridge the gap between the two game's time travel systems.
>inb4 XIII-2 was actually made to test out an idea for a future Chrono game
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When I think of "break" I imagine all the temporal entropy that must be generated by time travel and dimension crossing...
I mean, if you think about it, the universe has a specific amount of matter and energy at all times, which can neither be created (added) nor destroyed (removed) yet that is exactly what CT and CC are all about.
Take for instance, the simple wooden sword, (of if you prefer, the legendary wolf-lobe sword :wink: ) when it is removed from the present, the universe becomes smaller, which should have a cascade effect on the future, decreasing the lifespan thereof.
If perchance the sword is brought to the past, and left there, an even worse problem is created, of the universe having too much matter and energy, or in effect, too much net entropy.
Simply having items displaced from their proper timeline in any way creates a paradox of the entropy being doubled or cancelled. It all becomes okay again once the object returns to its proper point in time, because the equation balances.
The Chrono Break serves to solve the problem generated by permanently displaced items (which threaten all of space-time, even if not immediately... much like a being existing outside of time and space threatened once to -eat- time.)
All of the devices thusfar have been used to save someone and in general theory were originally designed to skew, balance, or re-balance something in time and space.
Or to put it in simple terms:
Time travel and dimension crossing of any kind cause wounds on the skin of universal physics, similar in effect to the time devourer, or Serge's paradox. The Chrono Break would be something to suture the universe, and nullify the impending omniverse-cide created by good people with good intentions.
The biggest disasters always start with good intentions.
And who do we have unaccounted for, wandering throughout time and multi-space?
Well there's Magus, then there's the White-dress Schala Kid Zeal... They're still doin' their universe dooming thing at the end of their games.
Anyway, that's my musings.
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My own thoughts on Chrono Break revolve around what would happen in the event of a temporal causality loop. If time is repeating, and the people in that timeline are unaware that they are part of a time loop, then a time loop is impossible to escape. No matter what they do in the confines of a loop, things will unfold as they did before because their choices are an integral part of the loop. Taking all of this as a given, consider how the equation would change if one person inside the time loop were to become aware of their own future actions and start making different choices. This person would effectively break the time loop, becoming the Chrono Break. The questions this brings up are many. How was the time loop created? How did the Chrono Break become aware of their own future? What new future could this person create, and would that future be better or worse than the reality of the time loop? There are some people that would regard a time loop as a fate worse than death, and there would be others who would view it as a form of immortality and something akin to perfection. How does the Chrono Break react to this? Does the Chrono Break choose immortality and a meaningless future, or do they choose death and a life full of meaning and purpose?
Come to think of it, this scenario bears some similarity to "The Wheel of Time", at least in the themes it brings up. I haven't read the more recent volumes of that series, so I don't know how things were resolved in the end. But in the books I did read, I often wondered whether the "Pattern" (time loop) was really such a good thing, even if it did seal away a powerful evil.
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I picked up cross again (finally) after like 10 years or so and from my playthrough, I think i've got fresh insights on how the previous staff would handle the Chrono Break namesake now: relationships!
With the events of trigger and cross concluded and retconning out the Guru's involvement to make either plot function, they find themselves with tons of free-time on their hands. Still concerned with the future of their favorite princess, each guru sets about a plan to match Schala to a suitor for a love that will transcend time/space forever.
However, the guru's don't agree on a single plan and each decide to take the matter into their own hands — only to discover other parties are privy to the plot and are seeking to influence love and progeny for their own interests!
In a crazy twist, a Lavos spawn-mutation (from some distant timeline/dimension) yields a lava-girl who is also seeking a suitable mate… or is she (cue dramatic music)
Zany break-ups, hot heart-breaks, dramatic break-downs all to come in the amazing Chrono-Break!
Note: this might be a festive joke
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i really like this chrono break idea....and some of the ideas on this topic are great!i would think tho that the break thought would be ......
time and space breaking....which could be like a cross and trigger hybrid game where time and space are literaly jumbled together?
or break as in breaking the cycle of lavos that has.....well probably been a problem in the galaxy
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Hot damn, I am legit loving this thread necromancy!
I have recently been playing Another Eden: The Cat Beyond Time and Space, which was written by Kato. It's a time travel adventure that, as I was playing the main quest, I couldn't help but wonder if it hadn't somehow been the unused plot from Chrono Break.
The storyline is, essentially, that a scientist from a horrible future genetically modifies his children, with the intent that they all travel back in time and rewrite history using his genetically modified children so there is a new, better timeline. Things go awry when he is separated from them, and they grow up in a different era knowing nothing of their true origins. Eventually, the kids are pulled into events in which they are manipulated into changing the timeline, but it turns out that all of these changes are causing "time quakes" that threaten to rip space-time apart ("breaking space-time" a la Chrono Break). They end up having to undo their changes to the timeline in order to set things right, with the intent of finding another way to rewrite history... without destroying space-time. As of yet this hasn't happened, and the storyline is still being released in episodes.
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You are reminding me that I really need to pick up Another Eden again. I'm so far behind on the new content right now. Work gets in the way of art and gaming. LOL
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Yeah, they are pushing out content faster than I can play it. I finished the main campaign and then was doing some of the side content... I am still on the Ocean Palace one, hahaha... I hate how grind-y they can be!
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I know exactly what you mean! Although it has helped me level up my party. My entire party is almost all level 80. That was some work, let me tell you!!