Chrono Compendium

Guru Workshop - Project Forums - Need One? Ask In Kajar Labs => Chrono Series Tarot Card Project => Topic started by: Angerona on January 09, 2011, 04:07:09 pm

Title: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Angerona on January 09, 2011, 04:07:09 pm
After participating in tushantin’s awesome bookmark Project I have been “cooking” an idea for a few days: I would really like to see a Chrono Tarot card set, and 2 different Tarots (Trigger and Chross) would be even more awesome (at least the Major Arcana). Which character would you think that suit better with each card (the less the characters are repeated and the more original the concept is, the better!)? A Chrono Cross tarot set could be so awesome with all the variety of characters… The possibilities are unlimited. And if we could create a template so different artists could participate that would make it even better.
Do you have any ideas? Please let me know.

Note.: The Major Arcana cards are:
The Fool, The Magician, The High Priestess, The Empress, The Emperor, The Hierophant, The Lovers, The Chariot, Strength, The Hermit, Wheel of Fortune, Justice, The Hanged Man, Death, Temperance, The Devil, The Tower, The Star, The Moon, The Sun, Judgement, and The World.

Thank you so much in advance!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on January 09, 2011, 04:20:30 pm
Ozzie the Fool, Flea the Magician, Schala the High Priestess, Zeal the Empress, Alphard (or Guardia) the Emperor, Fiona the Hierophant, Crono and Marle the Lovers, Epoch (or JetBike) the Chariot, Spekkio Strength, Doan the Hermit, Johnny and his Wheels of Fortune, Pierre Justice, Fritz (or Slash) the Hanged Man, Lavos Death, Zeal Islands Temperance, Magus the Devil, Mt. Woe the Tower, Gaspar the Star, Melchior the Moon, Belthasar the Sun, Mother Brain Judgement, Entity World
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Angerona on January 09, 2011, 04:44:00 pm
Ozzie the Fool, Flea the Magician, Schala the High Priestess, Zeal the Empress, Alphard (or Guardia) the Emperor, Fiona the Hierophant, Crono and Marle the Lovers, Epoch (or JetBike) the Chariot, Spekkio Strength, Doan the Hermit, Johnny and his Wheels of Fortune, Pierre Justice, Fritz (or Slash) the Hanged Man, Lavos Death, Zeal Islands Temperance, Magus the Devil, Mt. Woe the Tower, Gaspar the Star, Melchior the Moon, Belthasar the Sun, Mother Brain Judgement, Entity World

Wow, that was fast *o*. Awesome ideas… I specially liked the Guru ones ^^.. Maybe the only one I would considerate changing would be “the Hanged man”… Some years ago I saw that card featuring Janus and felt it totally suited him, but maybe it’s because I love Janus (and it wouldn’t be fair that Ozzie and Flea were included and Slash wasn’t)… And maybe look for a way to include Lucca, Glenn, Ayla, Robo and Tata (Ok, Tata is not so important but he’s so underrepresented and I think he’s kind of cute ^^). 
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on January 09, 2011, 05:06:30 pm
:lol: top of the head, I love making comparisons and matching things like that.
(Luke=Neo=Crono, Leia=Trinity=Marle, Obi-Wan=Morpheus=Gaspar, Sith=Agents=Mystics, Vader=Smith=Magus, Emperor=Architect=Lavos, Force=Matrix=Entity)

Archetypes are awesome!

Anyway, don't take my suggestions as commands in any way, they're just ideas! :-)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on January 09, 2011, 07:32:38 pm
Ohh, YOU READ MY MIND. :D I am a tarot nerd.

Here are my picks if a contrast with Mr Bekkler's would help:

The Fool- The Player. I vote a SNES controller. I have reasons for this that I can enumerate.
The Magician- Crono
The High Priestess- Schala
The Empress- Queen Leene
The Emperor- King Guardia
The Hierophant- Belthasar
The Lovers- Crono & Marle, of course
The Chariot- Epoch
Strength- Ayla
The Hermit- Gaspar
Wheel of Fortune- Time Gate
Justice- Glenn (with Cyrus, perhaps)
The Hanged Man- Robo
Death- The Chrono Trigger
Temperance- Melchior
The Devil- Magus
The Tower- The Ocean Palace/Mammon Machine/Queen Zeal
The Star- Marle
The Moon- The Black Dream  
The Sun- Lucca
Judgement- Lavos
The World- The Planet/Nu

And also: minor arcana suits, because I am a nerd!

King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords- Mother Brain
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands- Azala
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Atropos

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles- Crono's Mom
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Tata

King of Cups- Kino
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Toma
Page of Cups- Frog King

I have a loose rationale for all of these, if you need some justification. :)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Lady Marle on January 09, 2011, 10:18:50 pm
Tarot cards are apart of my religion ^.^ I'll brew on this and get back to you. I think due to the extent of how in depth the characters are, both major and NPCs that you could do the Major Arcana and Minor Arcana easily. You could do a whole deck if you wanted buuuuttt that's a LOT. I love this idea!!!! I especially can't wait to see your vision of it, Angerona! :D
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on January 09, 2011, 11:39:42 pm
Yeah, a full-on deck would be awesome, though a massive, massive undertaking! I actually had the thought of the numbered suit cards being events, and the ace cards being the most important items. Maybe this:

Ace of Swords- Masamune/Red Knife
Ace of Wands- Gate Key
Ace of Cups- Pendant
Ace of Pentacles- Dreamstone

These are just ideas-- I am trying to chose what's most appropriate right off the bat, but codifying each of the suits and more of the major arcana may be a good idea (though may come at the expense of the appropriateness of the choices.)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on January 10, 2011, 01:38:42 am
That's a brilliant idea, Angerona and Syna!  :D I must say I don't know much about Tarot (despite my vivid interests in Paganism, Mythology, Occult, Mysticism, Supernatural and relevant stuff) since I haven't a deck myself. Hell, post the requirements (300 dpi would be awesome) in the first post, index the required characters there like Syna and Bekkler described, and we're on!

Though, single-sided or double? If double, make sure you hand out a template after deciding how it's to be printed.


P.S.: Wouldn't the "fool" be Bekkler or Chancellor?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on January 10, 2011, 01:46:19 am
Oh my god. I completely forgot about Norstein. I'm making a freaking game about him, my account name here is based on his name, he's my favorite little mystery ever and I completely forgot about him. Huh. Pretend you never saw this!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on January 10, 2011, 02:05:35 am
@Bekkler: You're welcome.  :lol: *Notes everyone I know*

BTW you may wanna include two versions of Tarots. One for Guardia and one for Zeal? Sounds appealing.  8) Sorta like the "Light and Dark" thing.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: rushingwind on January 10, 2011, 02:13:13 am
Oh my, I've wanted to see a Chrono tarot deck for years! (but I have no artistic ability!) I'm excited to see what you guys cook up! :)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: TheMage on January 10, 2011, 04:31:20 am
For Cross maybe-

The Fool:Harle
 The Magician:Sneff
 The High Priestess:Riddel
 The Empress: F.A.T.E.
 The Emperor: Viper
The Hierophant:Steena
 The Lovers:Serge and Kid
 The Chariot:S.S. Zellbess
 Strength:Karsh
The Hermit: Radius
 Wheel of Fortune: Fortune teller
 Justice: Norris
 The Hanged Man: Wazuki or Prometheus
 Death: Lynx
 Temperance: Miguel
The Devil: Time devourer
 The Tower: Terra Tower
 The Star: Nikki
 The Moon: Guile
 The Sun: Pierre
 Judgement: Belthasar
 and The World: Entity
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on January 10, 2011, 05:06:12 am
 :D So that settles it then! Three decks: Guardia, Zeal and Cross.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: utunnels on January 10, 2011, 07:34:28 am
LOL, but Fate is male. However, the Sky Dragon or the Dragon God is female.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on January 10, 2011, 11:45:04 am
P.S.: Wouldn't the "fool" be Bekkler or Chancellor?

OK, I'm going to take this opportunity to rationalize why I chose the player as the fool. :)

The Fool is the major player in the Tarot and is not to be taken for a literal fool. He's described as meeting/experiencing the Major Arcana in what's called the "Fool's Journey." There is a sense of innocence and naivete about him -- he's about to fall off a freakin' cliff, for christsakes -- but it's more a sense of embarking on an adventure and boundless possiblities than anything else. Like all cards, there are positive and negative aspects.

The Fool can be the querent, person who is experiencing the Tarot -- i.e., asking the question-- but not always. Sometimes, that is reserved for the Magician, if the querent feels especially capable of shaping his own reality, which is why I thought Crono was best suited for him.

Crono ends up being extraordinarily powerful by the end, and as the instrument of the player's Will, I chose the Magician for him. (Again, don't look at the literal title. the Magician has mastery of the world and the power to create it, that's where his title comes from. An excellent description can be found here: http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/magician.shtml Aeclectic has good descriptions of all the cards, so they're worth a look.)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Angerona on January 10, 2011, 01:46:34 pm
Thank you so much everybody for getting involved in this project –shivers in excitement-!!! =^_^=

Anyway, don't take my suggestions as commands in any way, they're just ideas! :-)
Au contraire, thank you so much for getting involved!; I’m really really sorry if I was reactive or rude, I didn´t mean it =(. Btw, I’m really glad to hear that your dog is doing better ^^.

Ohh, YOU READ MY MIND. :D I am a tarot nerd.
That's awesome!, Thank you so much for the info Syna, your knowledge about this matter will be of invaluable help, thank you so much for being part of this! =D


Tarot cards are apart of my religion ^.^ I'll brew on this and get back to you.
I really hope you decide to participate, your art is awesome ^^!

I love this idea!!!! I especially can't wait to see your vision of it, Angerona! :D
Thank you  =^_^=!

That's a brilliant idea, Angerona and Syna!

Though, single-sided or double? If double, make sure you hand out a template after deciding how it's to be printed.

Thank you! I would love to make it double-sided (Zeal’s crest, Guardia’s crest and the Frozen Flame maybe?).

Maybe we could place a poll or something so we could decide which character (s) will show up on each card, or maybe we could even give a chance to create alternate versions of some or all the cards (for example, while my first choice for “The Lovers” card would be Serge and Kid, I think that a Dario/Riddel version would totally apply and at the same time would have a totally different feeling.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on January 10, 2011, 05:15:00 pm
This IS the best excuse for a poll I think I've seen on the Compendium for like a year!

And you didn't come off as rude at all! I'm really glad this idea is gaining so much momentum so fast!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Angerona on January 10, 2011, 08:04:39 pm
This IS the best excuse for a poll I think I've seen on the Compendium for like a year!

And you didn't come off as rude at all! I'm really glad this idea is gaining so much momentum so fast!

Excellent -strikes a Mr. Burns’ pose-! How do we set a poll and which options should we provide? Creating a poll for each Major Arcana would be insane… What can we do to make it flexible enough and not too complicated at the same time?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on January 10, 2011, 10:03:51 pm
We could set up a Google docs survey.

We could put descriptions of the meanings of each major arcana in front of each box and let people write in what they want-- that way people aren't restricted to a long list of characters, and may come up with a creative idea out of the blue.

That would be LONG, but this is a pretty big project that's being proposed, so... :)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on January 11, 2011, 01:42:51 am
Why not stretch it out and do one per card per week?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on January 11, 2011, 05:08:46 am
I second Bekkler's idea! That way we could have art exclusive to the tarots.  :D We could also assign an artist to dedicate into finishing the character each weak. Let's say, while an artist is making "The King", we could have a poll at the same time to see what people want to see as "The Lovers" next week. Also, remove the "The" from the cards; just "Lovers" or something sounds cool.  8)

@Syna: I get what you mean, (no offense) but for a person with not much experience with Tarot, calling them a fool would instinctively make them not download the sheet in the first place.  :lol: I'm just saying it can be misinterpreted as that. We'll have to put a vote for the fool too I suppose.

Thanks for the link, by the way! Pretty interesting read.

@Angerona: Hah! I like the crests idea. We already have the FF, we already have Guardia's crest, but unfortunately we don't have Zeal's crest.  :(


EDIT: Found the crest! On teh dress!  :grimm
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/File:Schala_Reimagined_by_reihelen.jpg.html
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on January 11, 2011, 01:30:47 pm
Bekkler's idea makes a lot of sense and is quite a sane way of approaching a big undertaking. My one concern would be that, ideally, the deck would be a cohesive whole, and taking it one card at a time would make that a bit hard. For instance, one might chose Guardia for the Emperor and later on discover they think he'd make a better Hanged Man, or something.

Maybe we could have a thread or two a week for each card, a discussion on it where people can put forth their suggestions and the reasons why and discuss the rest of the deck, and then a vote at the end of the week when the new card discussion begins? We could put the card's definition and a list of characters up at the top for easy reference, and people could have at it. Later on, if they felt like it, people could change their minds.

This would also encourage lots of Chrono analysis, which I personally love.

@Syna: I get what you mean, (no offense) but for a person with not much experience with Tarot, calling them a fool would instinctively make them not download the sheet in the first place.  :lol: I'm just saying it can be misinterpreted as that. We'll have to put a vote for the fool too I suppose.

Right, but though I don't want to give this a Super Serious turn or anything -- this is fanart for goodnessakes-- I would (personally) like to see this be a legitimate tarot deck with carefully-thought-out choices that are appropriate to both Chrono and the Tarot. That's why I'd like to see the card meaning incorporated into the survey-- because people who aren't yet exposed to Tarot will see a commonly-misinterpreted card like the Fool or Death and judge it on face value, which is not really what the card is about. :) The Tarot is a very deep story, and I think people may find it interesting to learn about the deck of cards while they look at pretty fanart.

We can always put the meaning in the captioning for the art. :) I'm not suggesting that my pick for the Fool was the best there ever was, but I do think that the symbolism and resonances in the Tarot cards themselves are important.

But in the end this is for creativity and fun, and I don't want to curb anyone's enthusiasm or anything. This is just my take!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on January 11, 2011, 01:52:09 pm
Tushantin, the Zeal crest is the mammon machine. They are one and the same (at least the shape)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Lady Marle on January 12, 2011, 06:03:32 pm
As an artist, I'll agree the week thing might save your sanity, especially if you want to go hard-core on details and such. One a week for however long you feel might be easiest on your creativity and your mind ^^;
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on May 02, 2011, 01:41:59 pm
I've been wondering: is anybody still interested in this? I often get bored at work when there aren't many customers, but also feel too distracted to think clearly on Moonlight Reckoning or my novels, so I thought I'd give this a go.  (http://horoscopes.lovetoknow.com/Meaning_of_Each_Tarot_Card)If I'm missing something, lemme know. (I'm removing 'The' from everything, because it makes stuff uncool.)

Major Arcana

I'm not sure what cards to list in the Minor Arcana, but we can always decide them later. So feel free to discuss. I was thinking of designing a template, but time ran out for me. :(
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: TheMage on May 02, 2011, 02:53:34 pm
I'm still interested in this but my art skills only go as far as spriting and mapping XD I'll give you all moral support!  :wink:
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Angerona on October 21, 2011, 11:33:43 pm
I've been wondering: is anybody still interested in this?

I’m really sorry for suggesting the idea en ended up disappearing… Actually I’m still interested in developing this project… But taking decisions has been really hard because everybody has such good suggestions =(…
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on October 22, 2011, 01:07:09 am
I've been wondering: is anybody still interested in this?

I’m really sorry for suggesting the idea en ended up disappearing… Actually I’m still interested in developing this project… But taking decisions has been really hard because everybody has such good suggestions =(…
Well, then let's just do this! XD Start from somewhere. We can adopt a Chrono-style design perhaps inspired by Clow Cards:
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/1/19151/390556-2901-clow-cards_large.jpg
http://sakuraccs.bysakura.net/general.php?i=en&t=clowcards

After we'e got a decent template, all we'd need to do is copy/paste pictures and credit artists for it.

But what "theme"? Specific color scheme or full-color?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on October 24, 2011, 06:12:18 am
I made the back cover for Trigger Tarot. 11 x 7 cm, 300 dpi. Any suggestions?

(http://i.imgur.com/ylsKc.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Lady Marle on October 24, 2011, 06:55:56 pm
I made the back cover for Trigger Tarot. 11 x 7 cm, 300 dpi. Any suggestions?

(http://i.imgur.com/ylsKc.jpg)

BAD ASS!!!! I love it!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Acacia Sgt on October 25, 2011, 02:25:34 am
That's certainly a cool design. :D
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on October 25, 2011, 04:49:59 am
It most certainly is.

I like the suggestions thus far, I might come back with mine.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on October 27, 2011, 11:07:50 pm
Here are my suggestions:

Fool - the Player
Magician - Norstein Bekkler
High Priestess - Schala
Empress - Azala
Emperor - King Guardia
Hierophant - Mother Brain
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Spekkio
Hermit - Belthasar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Masamune
Hanged Man - Gaspar
Death - Lavos
Temperance - Melchior
Devil - Magus
Tower - Mammon Machine
Star - Pendant
Moon - Black Omen/Dreamstone
Sun - Zeal/Sun Stone
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger
World - Nu/Entity

This isn't finalized, in fact I left a couple alternate choices in. However, I wanted to share my ideas, and I can definitely put forward arguments for this.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Manly Man on October 28, 2011, 12:56:58 am
The only thing I'd change is to have Queen Zeal be The Fool. Otherwise, I'm pretty mutual on this.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Acacia Sgt on October 28, 2011, 03:33:30 am
Most of the choices are fine I think. Although, I'd switch Gaspar and Belthasar's places.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 01, 2011, 12:22:19 pm
My choices were based around my readings on Tarot meanings, with a lesser emphasis on aesthetic similarities. For the most part, things clicked into place.

I'll expound on some of my choices here for those interested:

@Manly Man: Queen Zeal would be a great choice for the fool. I chose the player, because one way of looking at the major arcana is as the fools journey. He goes through a long process and experiences many things, represented by the cards. the first half of the deck is material, while the second half is spiritual. Keeping with that meaning, it is the player who starts off knowing nothing, and gets to know the world of Chrono Trigger. On the other hand, the Fool can be someone who wants to see and experience it all, but may be naive and prone to folly (aka the cliff right in front of him). In that sense, queen zeal is the best fit. She was presumably not so bad while Zeal was powered by elemental magic. but in her overarching ambition, she was corrupted by Lavos' power - so thoroughly that she remains allied to him even after he destroys her civilization! I could see a Queen Zeal Fool card depicting her on the brink of stepping off the zeal islands.

@Acacia Sgt: I can see why you would do that. the main argument is that aesthetically, Gaspar looks the part of the hermit, and seems similar to him as well. But as far as meaning, my order works better. The Hanged Man is about being suspended between one thing and another, introspection, and viewing things from a different perspective. Gaspar fits this. At the end of time, he is in a state of suspension outside the flow of time. and according to some time theories on this site, the End of Time is sort of perpendicular to the normal timeline, allowing him to view events in time from a different, outside perspective.
Likewise, Belthasar works well as the Hermit. He lives alone, except for his Nu. The Hermit represents introspection and research, as well as a teacher who can share his knowledge. Belthasar does lots of research and work in the Keepers Dome, although the solitude eventually gets to him. He's also the source of valuable information to the party.

When putting my list together, I decided that I should either use ALL of the party, or just use Chrono&Marle on Lovers and NPC's or objects for the rest. Using some would seem kind of inconsistent, and I was aiming for internal consistency.
Ayla is a great fit for strength, but so is Spekkio. Lucca works well as the Sun, with the emphasis on reason, science (!), level-headedness and energy. But the Kingdom of Zeal also fits well, at least the Zeal before the Mammon Machine. And what did they use before? The Sun Stone. I'm not sure why I didn't think of that right away. The Sun Stone provided great energy to Zeal while still providing sustainability. Its use in the creation of powerful arms and armor also ties into the reason/science themes.

Lavos is definitely Death. The Death card doesn't mean just death and destruction, but also clearing away the old to enact change. that gives room for doubt, but you have to consider the whole of Lavos' history. When he came down to earth, he destroyed the Reptite civilization and created an ice age, setting the stage for the eventual rise of humans and Zeal. When he arose again, he destroyed the Zealian civilization and ended the ice age, setting the stage for the rest of history to unfold. And of course there's the 1999 apocalypse, which mightve set the stage for an eventual rise of machines, though this was never realized.
The Death card shows people from commoners to kings succumbing to his power, which shows how he can bring down anyone, from the greatest to the least (from Zeal to prehistoric animals). Lavos is also an overwhelming force that no one can resist, except for the Christlike Chrono and his disciples (which is going off on a wild tangent).

The Mother Brain is the Hierophant. The Hierophant card emphasizes organized religion, but also community, beliefs, and shared cultural values. It is anti-individuality. The Mother Brain is the leader of the robots, who is building a new order. To do this, she organizes the machines under her and rewrites their memory/minds to pull them into the rank and file. This process suppresses their individual traits, as we saw with Atropos XR.

This post is getting long, so I'll come back with more of this later if you're interested.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 01, 2011, 04:00:51 pm
Yeah.

And we need an excellent Lavos and Motherbrain fanart!  :o

Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 01, 2011, 05:32:22 pm
I hate to be a tarot stickler, but I'd like to clarify again what "The Fool" card is supposed to indicate...

From Aeclectic Tarot:

"With all his worldly possessions in one small pack, the Fool travels he knows not where. So filled with visions, questions, wonder and excitement is he, that he doesn't see the cliff he is likely to fall over. At his heel a small dog harries him (or tries to warn him of a possible mis-step). Will the Fool learn to pay attention to where he's going before it's too late?...


As a card, the Fool ultimately stands for a new beginning often involving a literal move to a new home or job. The querent (meaning the sitter, or the one asking the cards for advice) might be starting to date again, or trying out some new activity. There's more than just change here, there is renewal, movement, and the energy of a fresh start.

In the Tarot, cards like The Magician or The Hermit can often stand for the querent or for someone in the querent's life. The Fool, however, usually stands for the querent, himself. They are back at zero, whether that be in romantic affairs, or career, work or intellectual pursuits. Far from being sad or frustrated by having to start over, however, the querent feels remarkably *free*, light hearted and refreshed, as if being given a second chance. They feel young and energized, as excited as a child who has discovered a new toyshop. Who knows what they will find on the shelves?"

I do agree with xcalibur that a strong case could be made for the Queen as being a classic Fool figure, but I think if you think of the cards as being approached in a very similar way as the player plays the game, Crono or the Player are the best choices overall.

Your interpretations are interesting, xcalibur! My only quibble would be that I'd personally prefer if the Big Seven each snatched a card, but I can tell you thought carefully about each choice you made.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: rushingwind on November 02, 2011, 12:35:56 am
I am such a tarot card geek, so I keep hoping some of these cards will actually come into existence. :)

I'd love to see Glenn (from Chrono Cross) in a Chrono Cross set somewhere, because I always thought of him as one of the core characters (and admittedly, he's my favorite character in the entire game, haha). Either way, I'd be screaming with joy to see these card sets.... Whether it's a Cross or Trigger set (or if Christmas can come twice, both!).
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Manly Man on November 02, 2011, 01:22:44 am
If there was such a thing as The Jackass card, Dalton would fit nicely.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 02, 2011, 04:04:41 am
I do agree with xcalibur that a strong case could be made for the Queen as being a classic Fool figure, but I think if you think of the cards as being approached in a very similar way as the player plays the game, Crono or the Player are the best choices overall.

Indeed. sticking by the proper definition, the Player or Chrono is best, which is why that was my choice. I just agreed that Queen Zeal would work well as a secondary choice with a different interpretation.

perhaps you could have Chrono on the verge of stepping into a Time Gate, with his cat in place of the Fool's dog.

Quote
Your interpretations are interesting, xcalibur! My only quibble would be that I'd personally prefer if the Big Seven each snatched a card, but I can tell you thought carefully about each choice you made.

thanks. and I did indeed put thought into making selections, aligning the meanings, and keeping it internally consistent.

as an alternative, if the 7 party members were in, here's where I would place them:

Chrono & Marle: Lovers (maybe Chrono as the Fool also?)
Lucca: Sun
Frog: Justice
Robo: Hanged Man?
Ayla: Strength
and Magus: Devil is a given, since he's also an NPC.

another issue is the minor arcana, and making sure that fits together. I don't want to re-use any characters. There are some workarounds though - I have Masamune as Justice, but Masa & Mune could be the King of Swords.

I liked your idea of having the Aces as significant items, but I used a few different items in my list! Still, it could work. We could have the zeal sapling as the Ace of Cups instead of the Pendant, since I think that works too well as the Star (explanation at the bottom). Ruby Knife would work fine as the Ace of Swords. There are no issues with the Gate Key as Ace of Wands, so that brings us to the Ace of Pentacles. I could use Black Omen for the Moon and avoid any conflict. On the other hand, Dreamstone could just as easily fit as the Moon.

The Moon refers to the subconscious, the mystic, and the otherworldly. Consider the quote from Zeal about Dreamstone:

Quote from: Book
   It all began aeons ago, when man's
   ancestors picked up a shard of a
   strange red rock...
 
   Its power, which was beyond human
   comprehension, cultivated dreams...
   In turn, love and hate were born...
   
   Only time will see how it all ends.

That definitely sounds like the work of the Moon. On the other hand, the Black Omen could also fit. It is otherworldly, being foreign and alien to the rest of the world. There are the mysterious doppelgangers. Also, it's referred to as the Black Dream, and I think there's an exit point where you're asked if you want to "awake from this dream".
Also, Dreamstone was highly valuable, and it's powerful, which fits as Ace of Pentacles.

If there was such a thing as The Jackass card, Dalton would fit nicely.

He'd be a perfect donkey. As it is, I think he would fit as a page.

As for the Star, I'm sure it's the pendant. The Star acts as a guiding light, helping you on your path and presenting future possibilities. The Pendant is what triggers the Time Gate that starts the whole adventure. It allows you to bypass sealed doors and chests, so you can continue on your adventure and get better stuff. It appears early in the game and brings you to much greater possibilities in its small but important role.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Kodokami on November 02, 2011, 10:27:25 am
If there was such a thing as The Jackass card, Dalton would fit nicely.
That gave me a good laugh. :lol:
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 02, 2011, 08:03:33 pm
Quote

perhaps you could have Chrono on the verge of stepping into a Time Gate, with his cat in place of the Fool's dog.


I really like this! It would work quite perfectly terms of both the picture and symbolism.

I'm still a little torn about the Magician. Bekkler works, of course, and I'd like to fit him into a suit card at least since he's a great character, but my preference would be for the trump to be taken up by a more significant presence. I do think Crono could function nicely, but I admit that aesthetically it's a stretch.

Quote
Chrono & Marle: Lovers (maybe Chrono as the Fool also?)
Lucca: Sun
Frog: Justice
Robo: Hanged Man?
Ayla: Strength
and Magus: Devil is a given, since he's also an NPC.


We seem to agree on these choices! I admit that I'm especially attached to Ayla as Strength -- aside from the obvious correlations, the image of her with a beast would be especially fitting -- and Robo as the Hanged Man, for these reasons.

- The Hanged Man has connotations of traitorship. This fits Robo's relationship with Mother Brain and the other robots.
- The Hanged Man is also in a strange, inverted position due to his desire to seek knowledge. This fits his relationship with humans: he doesn't fit in, but is eager to learn about them. He willingly chose that role, as the Hanged Man does.
- Robo selflessly helps cultivate Fiona's Forest and in the process, gains mystical knowledge, evidenced by the Entity conversation. That's very Hanged Man, to me.
- There's also the possible meaning of sacrifice, which aligns with Robo's identification with Prometheus and his later sacrifice in Cross.
- Robo is a badass and so is Odin. (This is the least effective of my arguments, I confess. :D)

All in all I like how there is something tragic and selfless about the Hanged Man, and how that speaks to Robo's willingness to go into the uncertain future, and of course his eventual demise by way of FATE.

All of these, save the traitorship aspect, also fit Gaspar, however. I am not entirely sold on the appropriateness of the Hierophant to Belthasar: the role definitely fits the one Belthasar filled in Zeal, and  the one he fills in Cross, but the most striking image we get of Belthasar is definitely as a solitary madman. Still, I feel that Belthasar could fit as the Hierophant regardless, and if we made Robo the Hanged Man we'd have to figure out where Gaspar fits.  

And Magus as the Devil is a given, for me. Too perfect. I also liked the fact that Lucca gains her best equipment through the Sun Stone; there's an added little detail.

---

I agree with your options regarding the Moon card. I chose the Black Dream myself because the meaning fit (as you described) and because in terms of the Trumps as the Fool's Journey, the Moon is often perceived to fulfill a "dark night of the soul" sort of function -- the period of illusions and terrors, the "valley of the shadow of death" where the Fool must traverse before reaching the Sun. I feel that the Black Dream may color the card a touch negatively, so I've no quarrel with either that choice or Dreamstone.

That's similar to the reasons I placed Lavos as Judgment, because aside from the obvious apocalyptic associations (which are traditional depictions of the card), having Lavos next to the end of the suit striked me as very appropriate, since you would encounter it just before countering the Entity-Nu-World trump. But again, Death fits Lavos extremely well, and it could swap places with the Chrono Trigger with no problems.

Regarding the Star, again, your reasoning for the Pendant is quite solid. Since Marle is the carrier of the pendant, though, I feel as though a combination of our two ideas may be possible -- especially since Marle acts as the impetus for the journey to begin, and is a symbol of faith and hope when Crono dies, and since the card is traditionally depicted with a woman anyway.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 03, 2011, 01:12:31 am
I hope you guys are making a list, and front-side theme.  :D So I can begin on the template.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Ema on November 03, 2011, 04:19:42 am
That is a very neat design Tushantin.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 03, 2011, 06:25:04 pm

I really like this! It would work quite perfectly terms of both the picture and symbolism.

I'm still a little torn about the Magician. Bekkler works, of course, and I'd like to fit him into a suit card at least since he's a great character, but my preference would be for the trump to be taken up by a more significant presence. I do think Crono could function nicely, but I admit that aesthetically it's a stretch.

I can see the issue - he does provide the clones etc., but he's more of a minor character than a major one. Still, he's the best fit as the magician. The only alternative I can come up with would be Spekkio, since he teaches you magic. On the other hand, the Magician brings his power down to earth, while Spekkio remains somewhat detached. Also, Spekkio could be the King of Wands, assuming that he's not assigned to Strength.

Quote

We seem to agree on these choices! I admit that I'm especially attached to Ayla as Strength -- aside from the obvious correlations, the image of her with a beast would be especially fitting -- and Robo as the Hanged Man, for these reasons.

- The Hanged Man has connotations of traitorship. This fits Robo's relationship with Mother Brain and the other robots.
- The Hanged Man is also in a strange, inverted position due to his desire to seek knowledge. This fits his relationship with humans: he doesn't fit in, but is eager to learn about them. He willingly chose that role, as the Hanged Man does.
- Robo selflessly helps cultivate Fiona's Forest and in the process, gains mystical knowledge, evidenced by the Entity conversation. That's very Hanged Man, to me.
- There's also the possible meaning of sacrifice, which aligns with Robo's identification with Prometheus and his later sacrifice in Cross.
- Robo is a badass and so is Odin. (This is the least effective of my arguments, I confess. :D)

All in all I like how there is something tragic and selfless about the Hanged Man, and how that speaks to Robo's willingness to go into the uncertain future, and of course his eventual demise by way of FATE.

All of these, save the traitorship aspect, also fit Gaspar, however. I am not entirely sold on the appropriateness of the Hierophant to Belthasar: the role definitely fits the one Belthasar filled in Zeal, and  the one he fills in Cross, but the most striking image we get of Belthasar is definitely as a solitary madman. Still, I feel that Belthasar could fit as the Hierophant regardless, and if we made Robo the Hanged Man we'd have to figure out where Gaspar fits.  

And Magus as the Devil is a given, for me. Too perfect. I also liked the fact that Lucca gains her best equipment through the Sun Stone; there's an added little detail.

Indeed, Ayla taming the beast would work very well. After all, the Strength card shows a woman.

Another point in favor of Robo being the Hanged Man is that after the party fixes him up, he reaches a philosophical crisis - what should he do next? He wasn't programmed to have his own free will. So, at least for a time, he is suspended between taking orders as a robot and forging his own identity.

As for Magus, there's no question about that matchup.

Re: Lucca and Sun Stone, I'll address that in the last paragraph.

The Gurus is where we have more difficulty. Most of the Hanged Man points do indeed fit for Gaspar. Even the traitor connotations may be met by his helping the party against Queen Zeal, although that is a stretch. If we change things around, I'm not sure where else he can be assigned besides the Hermit, which is a less ideal match (though not a mismatch).

If we include Gurus, I'd rather all 3 be used, just like I'd rather have all 7 party members than half of them.  Melchior fits well as Temperance, a card that emphasizes moderation and transformation. He's the Guru of Life, and he fixes/tempers the Masamune as well as creating other powerful items. In combining a broken sword with dreamstone, he takes two things and creates a stronger, unified third. I can't think of a proper replacement if we use none of the Gurus.

I can't see Belthasar as the Hierophant. I've never played Chrono Cross, so I can't comment on that. But the Hierophant emphasizes community and maybe even conformity, and Belthasars solitude runs counter to this. The Hierophant is about stable structure, while Belthasar loses his mind. I honestly believe that Mother Brain is the best fit.

Quote
---

I agree with your options regarding the Moon card. I chose the Black Dream myself because the meaning fit (as you described) and because in terms of the Trumps as the Fool's Journey, the Moon is often perceived to fulfill a "dark night of the soul" sort of function -- the period of illusions and terrors, the "valley of the shadow of death" where the Fool must traverse before reaching the Sun. I feel that the Black Dream may color the card a touch negatively, so I've no quarrel with either that choice or Dreamstone.

Indeed. The choice may come down to getting everything to fit together and not use duplicates. For example, we might really want to use Dreamstone as an ace of pentacles, although that's not finalized by any means. Or maybe we'll want to place the Black Omen in the minor arcana, though I'm not sure how that would play out.

Quote
That's similar to the reasons I placed Lavos as Judgment, because aside from the obvious apocalyptic associations (which are traditional depictions of the card), having Lavos next to the end of the suit striked me as very appropriate, since you would encounter it just before countering the Entity-Nu-World trump. But again, Death fits Lavos extremely well, and it could swap places with the Chrono Trigger with no problems.

The order of the cards does matter, although it makes this even more complicated. Ideally, we should aim to have the order consistent with logic and the storyline where there is room to do so.

I feel that Judgement: Chrono Trigger, and Death: Lavos fit much better than the other way around. The Judgement card is about resurrection, facing the past honestly and making major amends. Likewise, the Time Egg brings back Chrono, opening the final phase of the game. It also takes the party back to possibly the most painful point in their adventure, and allows them to make amends. Could Judgement be Lavos? maybe. There are the apocalyptic connotations, and he certainly passes his judgement on the excesses of Zeal. But his cataclysmic destruction seems a better fit for Death, and I outlined other reasons previously. Then there's the issue of assigning the Chrono Trigger to Death, which seems an ill fit at best - the Time Egg is about potential and making amends, rather than destruction.

I can see the sense of Lavos coming right before Nu/Entity. But taking storyline into account, we come across Lavos fairly early on, and first confront him directly some time before the end. The Chrono Trigger, on the other hand, comes right near the end.

Quote
Regarding the Star, again, your reasoning for the Pendant is quite solid. Since Marle is the carrier of the pendant, though, I feel as though a combination of our two ideas may be possible -- especially since Marle acts as the impetus for the journey to begin, and is a symbol of faith and hope when Crono dies, and since the card is traditionally depicted with a woman anyway.

Indeed, we could have Marle wearing her Pendant as the illustration regardless of which one we choose.

Likewise, we could combine Lucca and the Sun Stone, perhaps with both of them in the illustration. and/or Lucca holding the Wondershot, with a ball of golden energy at the muzzle.

~

if anyone else has ideas, feel free to contribute!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Angerona on November 04, 2011, 01:38:10 am
This is fantastic… I love how everything is coming together …  :)
I wonder if maybe this is a good time to make a front post with the card design that have been decided already and having it updated  as necessary .

I love the template, tushantin! I have always liked the Card Captor Sakura cards design. My only concern would be if we wouldn’t be missing the meaning of the use of the colors if we limit the chromatic gamma. We could open a poll and ask for suggestions  :wink:.

Personally, I would love that all the art was made from the scratch from the project (but maybe I’m being too ambitious =P…) so the cards are completely original. For this reason I would like to invite all the members of the Compendium who have drawing/painting/CGI skills to participate as well. I’m ready to start sketching as soon as the first designs have been settled, and I would like to upload the main steps of the process so you can make comments and suggestions.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 04, 2011, 07:17:38 am
Anyone working on the Card designs, download this font: http://www.chronotrigger.info/downloads/ChronoFont_charvie.zip

EDIT: Do we need Arcana symbols? Who would caligraph that?

Yeah. Going back to my design, I realize that something's quite "off" with that bevel. I made it more subtle this time:
(http://i.imgur.com/GIiUH.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 04, 2011, 08:30:26 am
Here's three versions of the template. Any suggestions?
(http://i.imgur.com/UFKrr.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/N8k0r.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/GXflR.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 04, 2011, 11:51:01 am
Okay, I thought it may be helpful to list out a bunch of potential candidates for the cards. I took this from our encyclopedia; however, I edited out some of the characters that striked me as far too minor to even consider (i.e., Porre's elder). If you have a case for somebody I left out, by all means, argue it.

I've double-starred the characters that I think MUST make an appearance somewhere -- either as a major Trump card or as a minor Suit card-- and one-starred the ones that strike me as having secondary importance. Feel free to disagree with me!

Crono **
Marle **
Lucca **
Frog **
Robo **
Ayla **
Magus **
Belthasar**
Chancellor
Commander
Crono's Mother *
Cyrus **
Doan
The Entity **
Fiona *
Gaspar **
Janus
Johnny
King Guardia XXI
King Guardia XXXIII **
Kino *
Mammon Machine **
Masa & Mune **
Master of Kitchens
Melchior **
Norstein Bekkler *
Nu *
Poyozo Dolls
The Prophet
Queen Leene **
Schala **
Spekkio *
Tata *
Toma *
Alfador
Doreen
The Cats
Earthbound Ones
Gato
Lara
The Laruba
Porre
Taban
Atropos **
Azala **
Dalton **
Flea *
Frog King
Lavos **
Lavos Spawn
Mother Brain *
Queen Zeal ** (Though I think she'd be best incorporated into the Tower, or the Moon card if it's the Black Dream, to save us a Trump)
Ozzie *
R-Series
Slash *
Yakra & Present Yakra

Important Items
Dreamstone **
Pendant **
Gate Key *
Masamune **
Hero's Medal
Rainbow Shell (Rainbow, Prism Armor)
Sun Stone & Moon Stone (Wondershot, Sun Shades)


We also need to figure out how we're going to do the numbered Suit cards, i.e., 3 of Swords and suchlike. I personally think it may be fun (if AMBITIOUS) to depict these as events in the series. However, that's up to our lovely illustrators and how motivated they feel.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 04, 2011, 12:05:28 pm
Quote
I can see the issue - he does provide the clones etc., but he's more of a minor character than a major one. Still, he's the best fit as the magician. The only alternative I can come up with would be Spekkio, since he teaches you magic. On the other hand, the Magician brings his power down to earth, while Spekkio remains somewhat detached. Also, Spekkio could be the King of Wands, assuming that he's not assigned to Strength.  

I'll have to think a bit more on it. At the end of the day, I think Bekkler will work OK, but he only makes one appearance and it's still not sitting quite well with me. I'd prefer Spekkio, honestly, though he does make a very good King of Wands-- a better king of Wands than Bekkler would be. Perhaps one of the Gurus? Hmm... 

Quote
If we include Gurus, I'd rather all 3 be used, just like I'd rather have all 7 party members than half of them.  

Agreed. That was my way of thinking as well. I think it should be possible to use them. Perhaps we could get a bit creative with our concepts of how each card should look-- emphasize certain aspects of the card, and not others.

The rationale for the Hierophant was the Hierophant's relationship with knowledge and unique ability to make the spiritual (or magical) earthly. I thought the community aspect would make the card interestingly ironic-- out of all the Gurus, Belthasar's inventions were generally made for the community's benefit, and he acts for others (with the Epoch and Death Peak) even in his solitary madness.

Gaspar's relationship with the party is such that he could fulfill the role himself perhaps, since he provides practical advice and guidance, and becomes part of the team. However, he'd be a very irreverent Hierophant -- the card doesn't really fit his personality. Yakra would also sort of fit, but again, not significant enough of a character to my way of thinking. Same with Mother Brain -- I can see the correlation, certainly, but she's a side-quest character and I like the symmetry of keeping the Trumps integral to the plot. Again, maybe we could spin it one way or the other by selecting which aspects of the traditional symbolism to use.

It will merit more thought.

Quote
I feel that Judgement: Chrono Trigger, and Death: Lavos fit much better than the other way around. The Judgement card is about resurrection, facing the past honestly and making major amends. Likewise, the Time Egg brings back Chrono, opening the final phase of the game. It also takes the party back to possibly the most painful point in their adventure, and allows them to make amends. Could Judgement be Lavos? maybe. There are the apocalyptic connotations, and he certainly passes his judgement on the excesses of Zeal. But his cataclysmic destruction seems a better fit for Death, and I outlined other reasons previously. Then there's the issue of assigning the Chrono Trigger to Death, which seems an ill fit at best - the Time Egg is about potential and making amends, rather than destruction.

I think I was thinking of Lavos-as-Judgment more as the act of defeating Lavos -- which would fit with the theme of making amends and facing the past honestly (especially if one considers that in light of the Entity). So, I was thinking "final confrontation" then "completion." But again, both do work nicely; Death is about transformation, and that suits the Chrono Trigger and the event in which it is used. I think my initial instinct was to prevent the poor Death card from being pinned to its negative connotation, but whatevs, it's not like we can be TOO picky about making these associations, and as I said, the reverse works quite well. If other people agree, let's go with yours. :)

I'm not quite sold on Azala as the Empress, tbh. Azala is an extremely important character and we should highlight her, but I think the Empress connotes nurturing and fertility too strongly for it to really service. Still, she does sort of seem too important to be regulated to a suit card..

Quote
Indeed, we could have Marle wearing her Pendant as the illustration regardless of which one we choose.

Likewise, we could combine Lucca and the Sun Stone, perhaps with both of them in the illustration. and/or Lucca holding the Wondershot, with a ball of golden energy at the muzzle.

Good idea! I'd love to have an occasion to put the Rainbow Shell with another figure, if we do this.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 04, 2011, 12:44:55 pm
We also need to figure out how we're going to do the numbered Suit cards, i.e., 3 of Swords and suchlike. I personally think it may be fun (if AMBITIOUS) to depict these as events in the series. However, that's up to our lovely illustrators and how motivated they feel.
Pardon me, but did you just say you desire "numbered Suit cards"? Like Augen Auf playing cards (http://yuumei.deviantart.com/art/Augen-Auf-Playing-Card-Ad-102933378)?

Artists, you guys better pack your bags. Syna's officially our new Queen Zeal.  :lol:

That said, we probably need to work on a simple "Inversive" design. Which means, I probably need to redo the Back design.

P.S.: Still awaiting suggestions, so I can tweak and upload the proper template source file.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 04, 2011, 01:08:17 pm
lol no, I mean the numbered cards on the tarot. Like this:

(http://sacredmistsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Three-of-Swords-Rider-Waite.jpg)

(http://tarotdude.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Swords04.png)

There are four suits -- Pentacles, Wands, Swords, & Cups -- and each have an Ace, a King, a Queen, a Knight, a Page, and nine suit cards. This is the Minor Arcana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Arcana#Cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Arcana#Cards)

Your Queen Zeal comparison is apt, though, because I'm just getting waaay ahead of myself; there are 56 minor arcana cards. IMHO the priority should be the Major Arcana, the Trumps (the Fool, High Priestess, etc. -- what xcalibur and I have been discussing, largely).
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 04, 2011, 09:36:56 pm
this is getting complicated, but at least it'll provide plenty of discussion. We're trying to merge two independent systems, which is never easy. The only reason this is even possible is because the Tarot archetypes are so relevant, and Chrono Trigger is so particularly rich.


I'll have to think a bit more on it. At the end of the day, I think Bekkler will work OK, but he only makes one appearance and it's still not sitting quite well with me. I'd prefer Spekkio, honestly, though he does make a very good King of Wands-- a better king of Wands than Bekkler would be. Perhaps one of the Gurus? Hmm...   

Bekkler isn't ideal for the card, but he fits. As for one of the Gurus, I could only see Belthasar filling that role. Spekkio wouldn't be a bad choice - another justification is that the Magician unlocks the fools potential, as Spekkio does by teaching magic. But he would definitely make a better King of Wands than Bekkler.

Quote
Agreed. That was my way of thinking as well. I think it should be possible to use them. Perhaps we could get a bit creative with our concepts of how each card should look-- emphasize certain aspects of the card, and not others.

The rationale for the Hierophant was the Hierophant's relationship with knowledge and unique ability to make the spiritual (or magical) earthly. I thought the community aspect would make the card interestingly ironic-- out of all the Gurus, Belthasar's inventions were generally made for the community's benefit, and he acts for others (with the Epoch and Death Peak) even in his solitary madness.

Gaspar's relationship with the party is such that he could fulfill the role himself perhaps, since he provides practical advice and guidance, and becomes part of the team. However, he'd be a very irreverent Hierophant -- the card doesn't really fit his personality. Yakra would also sort of fit, but again, not significant enough of a character to my way of thinking. Same with Mother Brain -- I can see the correlation, certainly, but she's a side-quest character and I like the symmetry of keeping the Trumps integral to the plot. Again, maybe we could spin it one way or the other by selecting which aspects of the traditional symbolism to use.

It will merit more thought.

It definitely will. Robo and the Hanged Man seem to be the issue with fitting the 7 members and 3 gurus. With Robo assigned there, Belthasar will have to be bumped to the Hierophant or Magician. Your Hierophant reasoning isn't bad, but it's still a stretch. One idea I had was to make the Hanged Man a SPLIT card between Robo and Gaspar, then Belthasar could stay as the Hermit and everything would fit.

Mother Brain would also remain as the Hierophant, which to me fits very well. It is true that Mother Brain is on a sidequest, and the Trumps should feature important characters/elements. However, not to make this even more complex, but I like the idea of giving each Time Era in the game adequate representation. In the future, we've got Robo, Jet Bike Johnny, Belthasar, Mother Brain, Atropos XR, the R Series, and Doan. The significant characters from this list imo are Robo, Belthasar, and Mother Brain. Despite being the sidequest boss, she's one of the most interesting personalities from the future, and very powerful in-universe (she controls Atropos and presumably the R Series). however, I noticed that you gave Atropos XR two stars, and mother brain one - that seems a bit strange to me, especially since we only briefly meet the real Atropos without Mother Brains programming.

The biggest problem with the split card solution is that its an unorthodox compromise. So if we can work out something else, that'd be cool.

Quote
I think I was thinking of Lavos-as-Judgment more as the act of defeating Lavos -- which would fit with the theme of making amends and facing the past honestly (especially if one considers that in light of the Entity). So, I was thinking "final confrontation" then "completion." But again, both do work nicely; Death is about transformation, and that suits the Chrono Trigger and the event in which it is used. I think my initial instinct was to prevent the poor Death card from being pinned to its negative connotation, but whatevs, it's not like we can be TOO picky about making these associations, and as I said, the reverse works quite well. If other people agree, let's go with yours. :)

Indeed. A Lavos judgement card would have to feature the battle against Lavos, not just him. I can understand the ordering issue, as well as trying to keep excessive negative connotations away from Death. However, I'd argue that my order fits better, and Chrono Trigger: Death is a bit of a stretch.

Quote
I'm not quite sold on Azala as the Empress, tbh. Azala is an extremely important character and we should highlight her, but I think the Empress connotes nurturing and fertility too strongly for it to really service. Still, she does sort of seem too important to be regulated to a suit card..

time for me to type up another one of my justifications.

My choice of Azala isn't ideal, but it's the best one I can come up with. The only contenders for this card are Azala and Queen Zeal. While Zeal seems like the obvious choice, she's clearly corrupted and off her rocker throughout the game. She permits the destruction of her civilization in her addiction to Lavos. That is definitely not a stable, life giving Empress. She might've been an empress before the Mammon Machine, but we don't get to see this.

Azala is better suited as Empress. She rules and provides for the Reptite Race, and is respectful of the planet/entity. We don't get much information about her role as a leader, but she may well have fulfilled the fertility/nurturing role for her kind. after all, the dinosaurs obey her too, even the mighty black tyrano (I'll admit, that roar got me as a kid). While it's not an ideal matchup, I can't think of anyone else for that card (mother brain wouldn't fit). For that matter, I can't think of where else to place Azala in the trumps, and she should be represented as the other major personality of prehistory.

Quote
Good idea! I'd love to have an occasion to put the Rainbow Shell with another figure, if we do this.

Indeed. With well thought-out illustrations, we should be able to incorporate plenty of meaning. As for the template, would it be a good idea to include a text box at the bottom, like magic: the gathering? it would be very untraditional, but we could put extra info that would help explain our choices (for example, the zeal quote about strange red rock under Dreamstone: Moon). It would be unorthodox, though. and I don't want to get too ahead of things.


lol no, I mean the numbered cards on the tarot. Like this:

There are four suits -- Pentacles, Wands, Swords, & Cups -- and each have an Ace, a King, a Queen, a Knight, a Page, and nine suit cards. This is the Minor Arcana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Arcana#Cards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_Arcana#Cards)

Your Queen Zeal comparison is apt, though, because I'm just getting waaay ahead of myself; there are 56 minor arcana cards. IMHO the priority should be the Major Arcana, the Trumps (the Fool, High Priestess, etc. -- what xcalibur and I have been discussing, largely).

Indeed, Major Arcana are the priority. The only reason I brought up minor is because they have to fit with the major. Numbered suits could definitely be events, but we'll figure that out later.

speaking of which, I think the greedy porre mayor could be a page of pentacles. however, you chose Tata for that and you might see him as being somewhat more important.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 05, 2011, 05:27:36 pm
Okay, I know you guys liked the previous design of mine, but I kinda hated it myself. There seemed to be something weird about it. Seemed too simple. Too lazy.

So instead I made a new, better design. Again, there's something missing here but I can't seem to put my finger on it. They first one I call "Ember", the second "Echo", and the third "Light".

Thoughts?

(http://i.imgur.com/3lF20.png)(http://i.imgur.com/KkTsf.png)(http://i.imgur.com/DsCP5.png)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: alfadorredux on November 05, 2011, 06:31:37 pm
Hmm. My problem is that I don't really like the glow effect. Maybe try the first one with a pseudo-metal-type bevel on the flat yellow?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 05, 2011, 07:53:45 pm
also, Syna, I'm not trying to push your thoughts aside. My intention is to argue it out, consider all points, and make sure we've made the right choices. I don't want the deck to be made and then be like OH WAIT LETS SWITCH THOSE TWO! also, I was willing to abandon my original NPC emphasis, and my list was influenced by yours.

looking back at your choices...
I see you picked Queen Leene for Empress. honestly, that could work, but only as a fill in if there was nothing else. As it is, I'm favoring Azala. I picked King Guardia for emperor because there's no one else in Trigger who fulfills that role.

The fool as the player and Chrono as Magician could work, but that's taking up two slots. We could instead have Chrono as the fool, since he's the stand-in for the player, and then have the magician to work with.

Here's my list as it currently stands:

Fool - Chrono/the Player
Magician - Norstein Bekkler OR Belthasar
High Priestess - Schala
Empress - Azala
Emperor - King Guardia
Hierophant - Mother Brain OR Belthasar
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Hermit - Belthasar OR Gaspar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Hanged Man - Gaspar AND/OR Robo
Death - Lavos
Temperance - Melchior
Devil - Magus
Tower - Mammon Machine
Star - Marle w/ Pendant
Moon - Black Omen OR Dreamstone
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger
World - Nu/Entity

the bolded AND/OR show the current quandary about fitting the party and gurus. we could have a split hanged man card. or put Robo on it, move Gaspar to Hermit (less ideal, but it still fits), and then move Belthasar to Hierophant or Magician. or leave robo off of hanged man, and maybe feature him with the hierophant mother brain, which is an even less favorable compromise imo.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 06, 2011, 10:08:39 am
How's this? a 2px shade, improved luminosity, and a bit of blur.

(http://i.imgur.com/LNoYd.png)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 06, 2011, 11:51:18 am
Dropping by quickly to say..

also, Syna, I'm not trying to push your thoughts aside. My intention is to argue it out, consider all points, and make sure we've made the right choices. I don't want the deck to be made and then be like OH WAIT LETS SWITCH THOSE TWO! also, I was willing to abandon my original NPC emphasis, and my list was influenced by yours.

Oh, I'm entirely on the same page; we should definitely hash this out as much as possible. I have a lot less attachment to my choices than a very cohesive deck that does justice to both stories. :D And anyway, it's great to discuss this with someone who knows so much about tarot! The list as it stands now is thoughtful and appropriate; but I think that arguing certain points will help us chose the best candidates, and point to ways we can help the artists depict the cards in a symbolically appropriate manner.

I'm still trying to ponder out our Guru problem. I don't like the Magician as Belthasar either, all things told. Brrr, this is difficult.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 06, 2011, 11:59:36 am
Final try for now. How about these 'Steam Punk-ish' designs? Used a papyrus texture here with back-design too.

(http://i.imgur.com/5McmG.jpg)(http://i.imgur.com/NJ8cB.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: alfadorredux on November 06, 2011, 12:50:09 pm
At the risk of being a pest, what doesn't work for me in the back design is the lack of texture inside the yellow. What I had more in mind was this:

(http://s8.postimage.org/imgjjhr5h/3l_F20b.png)

Alternatively, different bevels with some amount of glow might give this:


(http://s9.postimage.org/okuctqa4f/3l_F20c.png)

or this:

(http://s7.postimage.org/cvediit4b/3l_F20d.png)

My twiddling around also produced this:

(http://s9.postimage.org/5xqudkaf3/3l_F20e.png)

which I thought was kind of cool, but maybe a bit much.

Your last design also pretty much works, but strikes me as a bit of a cop-out.  :|
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 06, 2011, 02:35:59 pm
The bevel doesn't bug me, Alfy, I think it looks great. I simply try to strike a balance between subtlety, minimalism and vibrancy. My actual problem is that I'm still not satisfied with the design. Something simply seems... off. It's probably because I'm affected by Alcyone's perfectionism, but it's a good thing (for the art, not me).

The previous design was horrible. The newer design looked bland. Then the third "Steam Punk" design involved plenty of cuts here and there to make it look "just right". But it still doesn't seem right, and I'm still not getting good suggestions on it. What's missing? Gaaah!! I might simply "redo" the design, an artist's biggest frustration.

If you like, here's the non-steampunkish cut card to work your bevel on, or anything else entirely:

(http://i.imgur.com/HQIDC.png)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 06, 2011, 03:38:48 pm
Here's an even better design! Damn, I'm good!

@Alfy: If you wanna bevel this, make sure the clock-hands are on the separate layer, so they don't mix with others.

(http://i.imgur.com/T5ymh.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: alfadorredux on November 06, 2011, 06:01:10 pm
The C is very obviously off-center vertically in your latest effort—either you need to move it down, or provide another (smallish) element down near the bottom for vertical balance.

Anyway, if we decide we want the bevel in the final version (if anyone even cares what the backs look like besides the two of us), I'll separate the clock hands before preparing a final—doing it for each test version would increase the amount of time involved by an order of magnitude. (Current method: autotrace image in Inkscape, delete everything except the yellow path, play with filters.)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 07, 2011, 12:42:08 am
Oh, I'm entirely on the same page; we should definitely hash this out as much as possible. I have a lot less attachment to my choices than a very cohesive deck that does justice to both stories. :D And anyway, it's great to discuss this with someone who knows so much about tarot! The list as it stands now is thoughtful and appropriate; but I think that arguing certain points will help us chose the best candidates, and point to ways we can help the artists depict the cards in a symbolically appropriate manner.

I'm still trying to ponder out our Guru problem. I don't like the Magician as Belthasar either, all things told. Brrr, this is difficult.

Indeed, and thanks.

I liked your idea of having the Aces as significant items, but I used a few different items in my list! Still, it could work. We could have the zeal sapling as the Ace of Cups instead of the Pendant, since I think that works too well as the Star (explanation at the bottom). Ruby Knife would work fine as the Ace of Swords. There are no issues with the Gate Key as Ace of Wands, so that brings us to the Ace of Pentacles. I could use Black Omen for the Moon and avoid any conflict. On the other hand, Dreamstone could just as easily fit as the Moon.

I just had another idea for the aces - perhaps the Rainbow Shell or Prismshard could be the Ace of Pentacles, then Dreamstone could be assigned to Moon. also, we could use either the future Seed or the Zeal Sapling for the ace of cups.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 07, 2011, 04:41:42 am
The C is very obviously off-center vertically in your latest effort—either you need to move it down, or provide another (smallish) element down near the bottom for vertical balance.
XD I did that on purpose. I liked the negative space at the bottom. Was thinking I'd put Guardia and Zeal crests there, but unfortunately they look horrible.

(Current method: autotrace image in Inkscape, delete everything except the yellow path, play with filters.)
Wait a sec, so you did the bevel via Inkscape?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: alfadorredux on November 07, 2011, 08:38:13 am
Unfortunately, balance considerations trump just about everything else if you want the result to look good.

Yes, Inkscape—surely you didn't think I redrew that card four times by hand! (http://s3.postimage.org/mgb8sh9zz/icon_alfador.gif) Since version 0.46 or thereabouts, the bevels have been available under the "Filters" menu. Be warned that scrolling/zooming an image with a filter visibly applied inside Inkscape is extremely slow (there's a setting in the View menu to not show them, IIRC).
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 07, 2011, 11:05:33 am
Yeah, Inkscape blends and filters take too much processing power because they're vector based, hence why I don't use em.

Anywhos, I'll put the C in between when I get home. Until then, anyone is free to make suggestions!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 07, 2011, 03:12:25 pm
I'm seeing your point regarding Mother Brain as the Hierophant; equitable representation would be ideal. I'm going to do some research on the cards in question and see if I can come up with some kind of solution to the Guru problem. I do know that sometimes the cards go by other names, and maybe one of these alternate interpretations can help us make a decision.

Regarding the Empress card:

This

Quote
While it's not an ideal matchup, I can't think of anyone else for that card (mother brain wouldn't fit). For that matter, I can't think of where else to place Azala in the trumps, and she should be represented as the other major personality of prehistory.

is a very good point, and would be my primary reason for choosing Azala. Again, your desire to make the time periods more equitable is well-taken and I agree that somehow or another the Prehistoric and Future eras need more representation.

The issue is for me that Azala isn't very Empress-like. She's a female authority figure, but that's where the similarity ends, for the most part. The empress is traditionally depicted as Venus, and is about motherhood-- fertility, nurturing capacities--- and abundance, as well as  sensuality and beauty. All of those are qualities that fit Queen Leene: she is a symbol in the Middle Ages for the continuance of the Kingdom of Guardia, famed for her beauty, and acts as the classic courtly inspiration for Cyrus and Glenn to fight. Her mentorship of Marle also places her in a mothering role.

Azala's species, on the other hand, suffers a rousing defeat at the hands of the humans, which is the opposite of fertility and motherhood and creation. She would make a near-perfect reverse Empress, but as it stands she strikes me as a stretch-- she's more of an Emperor, threatening and domineering.

So one way to solve this would be to tweak the card: let's see if there is anything in the traditional symbolism we can emphasize to make Azala a better fit.

Quote
I just had another idea for the aces - perhaps the Rainbow Shell or Prismshard could be the Ace of Pentacles, then Dreamstone could be assigned to Moon. also, we could use either the future Seed or the Zeal Sapling for the ace of cups..

Ohh, that might work well, because I can't see the Rainbow Shell fitting neatly into any of the Trumps. I like the idea of a seed for Ace of Cups; I do prefer the pendant to be depicted in the Star. The pendant really deserves to be on a Trump in one way or another.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 07, 2011, 04:06:15 pm
@Alfy, and Angerona: How's this? Personally, I'm not fond of bevels, but contours are better than flat, I suppose.

(http://i.imgur.com/VV4Ft.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: alfadorredux on November 07, 2011, 07:48:43 pm
@tush: Looks much better to me. Balance is good, and the moderate contour bevel is enough to separate the clock hands from the edges of C—given that and the thinner yellow frame, the fancy metallic bevel I did isn't really necessary.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 08, 2011, 04:01:36 am
I'm seeing your point regarding Mother Brain as the Hierophant; equitable representation would be ideal. I'm going to do some research on the cards in question and see if I can come up with some kind of solution to the Guru problem. I do know that sometimes the cards go by other names, and maybe one of these alternate interpretations can help us make a decision.

Indeed. another alternative would be to place Queen Zeal as Hierophant, if we really wanted her as a Trump. the arguments in favor are 1. her high degree of power, and 2. she's a link between Lavos and the world, just as the Hierophant links the spiritual and secular. But other than that, it's a stretch. The Hierophant is about community and tradition, while Queen Zeal destroys both in her addiction to Lavos. We'll probably end up incorporating her into the Tower.

Quote
Regarding the Empress card:

This is a very good point, and would be my primary reason for choosing Azala. Again, your desire to make the time periods more equitable is well-taken and I agree that somehow or another the Prehistoric and Future eras need more representation.

Yes, I don't want any eras to be neglected. Several selections apply across the eras, such as Epoch or Time Gate, but time-specific selections should be as varied as possible.

Quote
The issue is for me that Azala isn't very Empress-like. She's a female authority figure, but that's where the similarity ends, for the most part. The empress is traditionally depicted as Venus, and is about motherhood-- fertility, nurturing capacities--- and abundance, as well as  sensuality and beauty. All of those are qualities that fit Queen Leene: she is a symbol in the Middle Ages for the continuance of the Kingdom of Guardia, famed for her beauty, and acts as the classic courtly inspiration for Cyrus and Glenn to fight. Her mentorship of Marle also places her in a mothering role.

Azala's species, on the other hand, suffers a rousing defeat at the hands of the humans, which is the opposite of fertility and motherhood and creation. She would make a near-perfect reverse Empress, but as it stands she strikes me as a stretch-- she's more of an Emperor, threatening and domineering.

So one way to solve this would be to tweak the card: let's see if there is anything in the traditional symbolism we can emphasize to make Azala a better fit.

These are very strong points, more solid than my attempts to justify. I was thinking that Azala would fit better as Emperor, but she's female! A female emperor would be very unorthodox, especially since the card is about masculine authority. We could have the King and Queen of Guardia as Emperor and Empress, with Azala as the Queen of Wands or Swords in the Minor Arcana. It seems that whatever choice is made, there's going to be some compromise or sacrifice.

Likewise, the Guru issue is not going to be easy.

Quote
Ohh, that might work well, because I can't see the Rainbow Shell fitting neatly into any of the Trumps. I like the idea of a seed for Ace of Cups; I do prefer the pendant to be depicted in the Star. The pendant really deserves to be on a Trump in one way or another.

That's my line of thought. keeping with consistency, if the Sun Stone is referenced on Lucca's card, I'd want the Rainbow Shell to appear somewhere. The Sun Stone being on a Trump, and the Rainbow Shell being on an Ace is justified by the fact that the Sun Stone was more significant as the power source of Zeal.

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell

I think we can stick with these!

Referring back to what I was saying before, as we work with the Major Arcana, we'll have to balance it with the Court Cards. Most of the current choices are pretty good. However, I'm not sure about Kino as King of Cups. He did fight the Reptites, and came through in the end with the Dactyls, but most Chrono fans don't find him too cool or memorable. Although he would be further representation of prehistory, I was thinking of placing Cyrus or someone else there.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Katie Skyye on November 08, 2011, 09:26:15 pm
Can I have the .psd for that image so I can mess with it, too? :D
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 09, 2011, 05:50:01 am
However, I'm not sure about Kino as King of Cups. He did fight the Reptites, and came through in the end with the Dactyls, but most Chrono fans don't find him too cool or memorable. Although he would be further representation of prehistory, I was thinking of placing Cyrus or someone else there.
I object! Kino is THA BOSS! Although Cyrus is cool too. Something tells me Cyrus would rather be a King of Swords rather.

Can I have the .psd for that image so I can mess with it, too? :D
Sure! Here you go. (http://www.box.net/shared/yrc8th5oeknr3rpnjmcz) Two things to keep in mind, though:

1) I'm using GIMP, and took advantage of its unique blend-modes. Unfortunately, exporting to PSD had compatibility problems, so I tried to tweak stuff around to keep the feel. Not exactly as I rendered it, but close enough.

2) Lots and lots of unwanted, hidden layers. Beware, it's mess!  :lol:
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 09, 2011, 10:40:11 am
However, I'm not sure about Kino as King of Cups. He did fight the Reptites, and came through in the end with the Dactyls, but most Chrono fans don't find him too cool or memorable. Although he would be further representation of prehistory, I was thinking of placing Cyrus or someone else there.
I object! Kino is THA BOSS! Although Cyrus is cool too. Something tells me Cyrus would rather be a King of Swords rather.

looking back, 600ad is over-represented in the court cards as is. We can go with Kino then.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 09, 2011, 02:43:40 pm
Well, tbh I now think my Page of Cups, the Frog King, was a very lame pick, chosen very impulsively. We could shuffle the others around so that Cyrus gets a place. Kino may make a good Page of Cups himself, but I feel that may be underselling him a little bit (he is Ayla's partner, after all...), so I'll take another look.

Trying to think of characters from prehistory and the future to include! Johnny may make a good Page of some kind.

I also agree with the Ace card choices!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Angerona on November 10, 2011, 08:51:06 pm
@Alfy, and Angerona: How's this? Personally, I'm not fond of bevels, but contours are better than flat, I suppose.

(http://i.imgur.com/VV4Ft.jpg)

I’m really sorry for the late reply, Tushantin (Unfortunately I was condemned to 3 days without Internet connection (my modem just died) and navigating with the cell phone causes me nightmares). Personally I really liked the more complex bevels but they were probably too much, visually speaking, so this new version works much better. I also like the color choice as well. I see some parts look a bit pixilated, but it’s probably because of the file compression.
I have a quick question and it’s probably something superficial, but how does the design works when printed? I’m sure most people will want to have the cards physically and it would be important that the design stands gracefully the change from RGB to CMYK colors (I tried to print it myself but I ran out of color ink =P… Also my monitor is helluva bright (it needs to be recalibrated ASAP) so probably the actual design is less bright).

Finally, maybe I would move the logo a bit to the left, since visually the darkest color at the top left is somehow pushing it a bit to the right making it look a bit off place (also because the left side of the “C” is much heavier  -composition wise- than the right side, so having more free space at the right would make the overall composition a bit lighter and more equilibrated). However it looks amazing.
  8)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: alfadorredux on November 10, 2011, 09:57:27 pm
@Angerona: Applying Scribus' colour management to it suggests that almost the entire image fails to fit the CMYK printer gamut (I'm not surprised—when I sampled the yellow, it was incredibly saturated), so it would probably print somewhat duller than it shows on screen. (If we were printing these professionally, I'd probably investigate the possibility of setting it up as a three-colour using red and yellow spot inks + black, which might give a more vivid result.)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Katie Skyye on November 10, 2011, 10:14:46 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/VV4Ft.jpg)

The only thing is...I feel like the black border around the outsidemost part of the C (the chronometer part, rather than the letter) is too thick or dark. But since the entire Chronomenter C is one layer in the .psd file there's not much I can do about it unless I feel like taking apart the layer and putting it back together. Which I could do without too much trouble, but....meeeehhhhh I don't fee l like it...

Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on November 10, 2011, 10:22:08 pm
use the "magic wand" tool around it, "refine edge" button. Increase "smooth" and mess with "expand/contract" and delete the excess. should take 30 seconds :lol:
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 11, 2011, 11:38:13 am
Well, tbh I now think my Page of Cups, the Frog King, was a very lame pick, chosen very impulsively. We could shuffle the others around so that Cyrus gets a place. Kino may make a good Page of Cups himself, but I feel that may be underselling him a little bit (he is Ayla's partner, after all...), so I'll take another look.

Trying to think of characters from prehistory and the future to include! Johnny may make a good Page of some kind.

I also agree with the Ace card choices!

Glad we're on the same page about the Aces.

While we work out the Major Arcana quandary, we could take a look at the court cards:

original reply:
Quote
King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords- Mother Brain
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands- Azala
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Atropos

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles- Crono's Mom
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Tata

King of Cups- Kino
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Toma
Page of Cups- Frog King


King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords-
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands-
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands-

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles-
Knight of Pentacles-
Page of Pentacles-

King of Cups-
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups-
Page of Cups-

those are the choices I definitely agree with. The Mystical Knights should be included, and all 3 should appear. Slash and Flea as Knights, with Ozzie as King, and in 3 suits, all works out perfectly. Masa & Mune collectively make a perfect King of Swords. and since Spekkio isn't a trump, King of Wands is undoubtedly his spot. Fionas creation of the Zenan forest solidifies her rank as Queen of Cups. Dalton is definitely a page, Swords is the most fitting suit, and he's from 12000 BC.

Choices I'm not sure about were left blank. If Mother Brain and Azala aren't in the Trumps, they should definitely be assigned as Queens. Perhaps Queen Zeal could be placed here too, unless she's incorporated well enough into the Tower.

even in my pared down list, 600ad has no less than 5 representatives. I guess its fitting for a medieval era to figure strongly in a court. but the Court is a suitable place to work in other eras too. Gato would make a nice page, although present is already well represented in the Trumps. I agree the Johnny would make a good Page, perhaps the Page of Wands. Norstein Bekkler would work well as Knight of Wands, but that is precluded by the Mystical Knights.

I like Toma as Knight of Cups, but I'm thinking Kino could fit there too. He doesn't quite seem like a King, but he's better than a page. We could maybe then have Cyrus as King of Cups. I don't know who the page would be. Janus, maybe?

Yakra is a strong pick for Knight of Pentacles, so unless there are other suitable options we'll stick with that. he represents 600 ad, but also the present. his political power as fake chancellor and greed fit the suit. We could stick with Crono's Mom as Queen to put a positive influence in the Pentacles, unless Zeal/Azala/Mother Brain get placed there. Maybe Gato could be page of pentacles, in spite of being from the present. Other than him, Tata or Porre Mayor, I'm not sure who else would fit.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 12, 2011, 07:40:53 am
@Angerona, I've no problems with asymmetry, but provided the design had the bases of asymmetry. I'm pretty careful about symmetry, and the Chronometer is actually "exactly" at the center, give and take a pixel. XD

Unfortunately I use GIMP, so I can't try converting to CMYK. Although I'll give it a go when I get access to Photoshop.

@Katie: How about this? (Bekkler, it took me more than 30 sec; used the Pen Tool. Yeah, I stop watched it.)

(http://i.imgur.com/Y9j6L.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on November 12, 2011, 01:18:31 pm
:) i'm glad you timed it! Never be afraid to have fun!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 12, 2011, 02:31:20 pm
come to think of it, Janus would work well as page of cups. He's a child, and he's full of emotion - not just the "tempest in his head" but also love for Schala. his dark side also helps balance the Cups. I don't want a certain suit to be too overwhelmingly positive or negative. It's ok if they lean one way or the other, as long as there's some balance. That's also my concern with Pentacles - any other ideas for Knight of Pentacles besides Yakra?

here's my preliminary court cards:

King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords-
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands-
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Jetbike Johnny

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles-
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Gato

King of Cups- Cyrus
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Kino
Page of Cups- Janus

something like this could work. who the other Queens are depends on what we do with the Trumps.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Katie Skyye on November 12, 2011, 06:12:21 pm
@Katie: How about this?

Well, I like it better!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 15, 2011, 04:15:15 am
CMYK separation. How's it? Try printing: http://www.box.net/s/bui26z9oykj3ceavghen
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: FaustWolf on November 18, 2011, 12:46:13 pm
Hey guys, I've moved this to Kajar. tushantin asked about a project forum; feel free to make a thread for each card you're working on for right now since there's not much else going on in Kajar at the moment anyway, and if it looks like this is catching on we can collect all the threads into a dedicated subforum.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Lady Marle on November 21, 2011, 11:16:03 pm
Well, tbh I now think my Page of Cups, the Frog King, was a very lame pick, chosen very impulsively. We could shuffle the others around so that Cyrus gets a place. Kino may make a good Page of Cups himself, but I feel that may be underselling him a little bit (he is Ayla's partner, after all...), so I'll take another look.

Trying to think of characters from prehistory and the future to include! Johnny may make a good Page of some kind.

I also agree with the Ace card choices!

Glad we're on the same page about the Aces.

While we work out the Major Arcana quandary, we could take a look at the court cards:

original reply:
Quote
King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords- Mother Brain
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands- Azala
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Atropos

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles- Crono's Mom
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Tata

King of Cups- Kino
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Toma
Page of Cups- Frog King


King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords-
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands-
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands-

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles-
Knight of Pentacles-
Page of Pentacles-

King of Cups-
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups-
Page of Cups-

those are the choices I definitely agree with. The Mystical Knights should be included, and all 3 should appear. Slash and Flea as Knights, with Ozzie as King, and in 3 suits, all works out perfectly. Masa & Mune collectively make a perfect King of Swords. and since Spekkio isn't a trump, King of Wands is undoubtedly his spot. Fionas creation of the Zenan forest solidifies her rank as Queen of Cups. Dalton is definitely a page, Swords is the most fitting suit, and he's from 12000 BC.

Choices I'm not sure about were left blank. If Mother Brain and Azala aren't in the Trumps, they should definitely be assigned as Queens. Perhaps Queen Zeal could be placed here too, unless she's incorporated well enough into the Tower.

even in my pared down list, 600ad has no less than 5 representatives. I guess its fitting for a medieval era to figure strongly in a court. but the Court is a suitable place to work in other eras too. Gato would make a nice page, although present is already well represented in the Trumps. I agree the Johnny would make a good Page, perhaps the Page of Wands. Norstein Bekkler would work well as Knight of Wands, but that is precluded by the Mystical Knights.

I like Toma as Knight of Cups, but I'm thinking Kino could fit there too. He doesn't quite seem like a King, but he's better than a page. We could maybe then have Cyrus as King of Cups. I don't know who the page would be. Janus, maybe?

Yakra is a strong pick for Knight of Pentacles, so unless there are other suitable options we'll stick with that. he represents 600 ad, but also the present. his political power as fake chancellor and greed fit the suit. We could stick with Crono's Mom as Queen to put a positive influence in the Pentacles, unless Zeal/Azala/Mother Brain get placed there. Maybe Gato could be page of pentacles, in spite of being from the present. Other than him, Tata or Porre Mayor, I'm not sure who else would fit.

I actually think that Fiona should be the Queen of Pentacles. Pentacles are an earth element. Cups are water. Perhaps have Crono's mom as that? Or maybe the woman who was the NPC that saved the sapling?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Katie Skyye on November 23, 2011, 06:31:07 pm
Please take me off your mailing list for this. n_n'
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on November 24, 2011, 03:59:00 am
Same here. I'm glad the project has momentum but I can't help and I now have almost 20 unread PMs, and an email for each PM.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 24, 2011, 04:15:17 am
Please take me off your mailing list for this. n_n'
Same here. I'm glad the project has momentum but I can't help and I now have almost 20 unread PMs, and an email for each PM.
Already done. Check the last unread PM by me, it should state that the discussion's moving to a new thread. (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,9599.0.html)

And sorry about the fantastic bombing.  :P Didn't think my "mass announcement" would eventually turn into "massive uproar of enthusiasm" (which, I admit, I'm actually quite fond of. FREEDOM, YAY!)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 26, 2011, 06:43:00 am
I actually think that Fiona should be the Queen of Pentacles. Pentacles are an earth element. Cups are water. Perhaps have Crono's mom as that? Or maybe the woman who was the NPC that saved the sapling?

either way would work. My thinking was that cups are based on emotion and life, and the water element fits the replacement of desert with forest well. Pentacles are based on the material and practical, thus Chronos Mom. The Queens are open-ended since the Major Arcana haven't been finalized yet.

I would argue that the Zealian woman simply isn't significant enough to be in the court cards.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 26, 2011, 07:10:05 am
MAJOR ARCANA

Fool - Chrono/the Player
Magician - Norstein Bekkler OR Belthasar
High Priestess - Schala
Empress - Queen Leene
Emperor - King Guardia OR Azala
Hierophant - Mother Brain OR Belthasar
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Hermit - Belthasar OR Gaspar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Hanged Man - Gaspar AND/OR Robo
Death - Lavos
Temperance - Melchior
Devil - Magus
Tower - Mammon Machine                                
Star - Marle w/ Pendant                                      
Moon - Dreamstone (w/ Queen Zeal?)
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone                                    
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger
World - Nu/Entity

where there are two different possibilities, I put OR in bold. where OR is bold, underlined, and italicized, it relates to the whole Guru issue (I'll address that next). I attempted to draw an arrow between Death and Judgement, since a choice on one sets the choice for the other.

The Guru issue is the conflict between fitting the 3 Gurus and the 7 party members. Almost everything fits, but then we have to place Robo. It seems that Hanged Man is most applicable, but Gaspar is there. We could set Robo there, bump Gaspar to Hermit (since that also kinda fits), then move Belthasar in turn to Hierophant, Magician, or elsewhere.
An unorthodox alternative to this would be to split the Hanged Man card between Gaspar/Robo. Or make it Belthasar/Robo - this might be easier to pull off, at a moderate cost to proper choice.

also, we had some issues with Azala. her role doesn't seem to fit the nurturing Empress too well. But a female Emperor would also be an ill fit. She may have to be assigned to the court, although the King and Queen of Guardia aren't totally ideal for Empress and Emperor.


ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell

no issues here, everything fits.


COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Queen of Swords-
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands-
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Jetbike Johnny

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles-
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Gato

King of Cups- Cyrus
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Kino
Page of Cups- Janus

This is still open to interpretation, but this is as far as I was able to take it. possible queens I know of are Queen Zeal, Azala, and Cronos Mom. also Queen Leene and Mother Brain, if they're not Trumps.


time periods - I favor adequate representation of the major eras of the game in the selections. naturally there are limitations, such as the uneven distribution of important personalities throughout time. the Major Arcana have a lot of the present, since 3 of the main characters are from there. The Court Cards are dominated by 600 ad. but as long as no one is neglected, it should be fine.

good/evil - I also want to have a balanced mix between good and bad. This isn't too much of a problem in the Trumps, except that it leads me to favor Dreamstone over Black Omen for Moon. frequently maligned tarot cards should have something less negative. However, I may have to sacrifice that in the case of Death - Lavos.
This is more of an issue in the court cards. I'm aiming for balance in the 4 court cards for each suit. Naturally, Cups is going to lean towards positive, but assigning Janus as the page helps balance that. Gato also helps balance Pentacles, and if the Queen is positive then that will be fine. Even if 3 of the swords are negative, Masa&Mune as king can balance that imo.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 26, 2011, 03:07:23 pm
A quick thought pending some substantive discussion on the Guru & Empress issues:

Would it be possible to combine Dreamstone with a character, just to go with a similar schtick for the Sun, Moon, and Star cards? Just a thought. I imagined that Queen Zeal might fit and would be a way of merging the two ideas, but that does color the card a bit negatively & she doesn't encompass all of what Dreamstone connotes. On the other hand, you do get a bit of the "possibly nightmarish 'valley of the shadow of death' period" meaning a little more emphatically.

I'm backtracking a bit on the Black Omen because: 1) it is optional content, after all (and doesn't have the compelling reasons for including Mother Brain), and 2) it strikes me as a little symmetrically off to have the Star and Sun depicted with characters and the Moon to be a place. I don't agree with the placement of the Gurus in those three positions for appropriateness reasons, but it was a really nice idea to have the three cards relate to each other.

I like the idea of depicting "trans-period" entities in the time where you encounter them (The Chrono Trigger & Belthasar in the Future, Melchior in the Present, etc.). I am also quite comfortable with Lavos as Death & The Chrono Trigger as Judgment. In the case of Death perhaps we can emphasize somehow that Lavos was the catalyst for the adventure & human evolution, etc. to offset the negative qualities.

Just some ideas, feel free to discard! I don't want to make this TOO complicated, and it's a minor point.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 26, 2011, 10:01:34 pm
A quick thought pending some substantive discussion on the Guru & Empress issues:

Would it be possible to combine Dreamstone with a character, just to go with a similar schtick for the Sun, Moon, and Star cards? Just a thought. I imagined that Queen Zeal might fit and would be a way of merging the two ideas, but that does color the card a bit negatively & she doesn't encompass all of what Dreamstone connotes. On the other hand, you do get a bit of the "possibly nightmarish 'valley of the shadow of death' period" meaning a little more emphatically.

that could work well. my original thought was to incorporate Queen Zeal into the Tower (Mammon Machine), or set her as a court queen.

Quote
I'm backtracking a bit on the Black Omen because: 1) it is optional content, after all (and doesn't have the compelling reasons for including Mother Brain), and 2) it strikes me as a little symmetrically off to have the Star and Sun depicted with characters and the Moon to be a place.
indeed. Dreamstone is more significant to the story and to theory&analysis, so we can stick with that.

Quote
I don't agree with the placement of the Gurus in those three positions for appropriateness reasons, but it was a really nice idea to have the three cards relate to each other.

you don't agree with

temperance - melchior
hanged man - gaspar
hermit - belthasar
?

like I said, there's still room to shuffle things around. or did someone else suggest the three gurus on sun/star/moon respectively?

Quote
I like the idea of depicting "trans-period" entities in the time where you encounter them (The Chrono Trigger & Belthasar in the Future, Melchior in the Present, etc.). I am also quite comfortable with Lavos as Death & The Chrono Trigger as Judgment. In the case of Death perhaps we can emphasize somehow that Lavos was the catalyst for the adventure & human evolution, etc. to offset the negative qualities.

Just some ideas, feel free to discard! I don't want to make this TOO complicated, and it's a minor point.

indeed. I just felt that since we wanted a bit more representation from prehistory and the future, that the chrono trigger and dreamstone would do nicely.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Syna on November 26, 2011, 11:30:31 pm
like I said, there's still room to shuffle things around. or did someone else suggest the three gurus on sun/star/moon respectively?

Oh, it's the latter. Someone classified Sun/Star/Moon as the Gurus. I liked the idea in theory but in practice I did not feel it cohered. I think the Star and Sun work very well as we've been discussing them and thought we might take the chance to include another character alongside the Dreamstone.

Quote
indeed. I just felt that since we wanted a bit more representation from prehistory and the future, that the chrono trigger and dreamstone would do nicely.

I think it's a great idea.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 27, 2011, 12:15:13 am
like I said, there's still room to shuffle things around. or did someone else suggest the three gurus on sun/star/moon respectively?

Oh, it's the latter. Someone classified Sun/Star/Moon as the Gurus. I liked the idea in theory but in practice I did not feel it cohered. I think the Star and Sun work very well as we've been discussing them and thought we might take the chance to include another character alongside the Dreamstone.

Quote
indeed. I just felt that since we wanted a bit more representation from prehistory and the future, that the chrono trigger and dreamstone would do nicely.

I think it's a great idea.

I see. I imagine it was melchior - sun, belthasar - moon, gaspar - star. but the current order is better.

Queen Zeal and Dreamstone would be great - she would fit with the Moon as well. the only issue is that it would take away the explicit prehistory reference.

also, I just updated the index re:latest discussion. you can still see the old version (and my awesome arrow) on the general discussion thread.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on November 28, 2011, 04:49:12 pm
I've a question: Which of the indexed seems more set in stone? And how would one envision it symbolically?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on November 29, 2011, 06:14:10 am
I've a question: Which of the indexed seems more set in stone? And how would one envision it symbolically?

Here are the selections which I think are set in stone:

MAJOR ARCANA

Fool - Chrono/the Player
High Priestess - Schala
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Temperance - Melchior
Devil - Magus
Tower - Mammon Machine
Star - Marle w/ Pendant
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone                                    
World - Nu/Entity


ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell


COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune  
Knight of Swords- Slash

King of Wands- Spekkio
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea

King of Pentacles- Ozzie

Page of Cups- Janus


this isn't to say that other choices aren't legitimate, but I believe that these are unlikely to change.

As far as imagery, I have lots of ideas for that. Here are some:

Chrono the Fool, on the verge of stepping through a Time Gate, with his cat in place of the dog.
Schala - High Priestess. she'd definitely be in her fine robes, maybe with the Zealian statues of a nude woman and beast on either side.
Ayla - Strength, and as I mentioned in the list she'd be closing a sabertooth tigers mouth.
Time Gate - Wheel of Fortune. It would depict a time gate of course, maybe with figures around it from the various time periods - a robot or mutant, a reptite or kilwala, an enlightened one, a mystic, etc.
Melchior - Temperance. since the original card has substances being mixed, you could have Melchior doing some sort of alchemy, or working on the Masamune or equipment.
Marle w/ Pendant - Star. I could see her wearing the Pendant at the Millennial Fair, with a glint of blue-white light visible in the jewel, like a star.
Lucca the Sun, holding the Wondershot, with a ball of golden energy at the muzzle. maybe with rays coming off of it like in the original card.

for the Ace cards, we might stick with the traditional illustration of a hand holding each object. Maybe with the Ace of Cups, waterfalls would come off of the Seed/Sapling, causing a forest to grow at the bottom.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on December 06, 2011, 04:20:12 pm
Okay, so I got bored working on my eProject, so I took some time to do this instead. Somehow, I feel like the "Page of Cups" definition fits me a lot. Here's a rough doodle / concept of Janus mourning the fall of his home and everyone he knew. What do you folks think?

(http://i.imgur.com/LWP52.jpg)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Mr Bekkler on December 06, 2011, 04:27:30 pm
That's awesome. I like where it's going.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: TheMage on December 06, 2011, 08:58:00 pm
agreed and even Alfador looks sad!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Lady Marle on December 07, 2011, 08:32:27 pm
I'll start my sketches this week. I'm doing two projects, this one and the artwork for CT: Prelude to a Dream so time to get to work!!  :kz
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on December 09, 2011, 03:40:21 am
Does anyone object to Janus wearing an indigo Zealian Sherwani (http://product-image.tradeindia.com/00659255/b/2/Groom-Sherwani.jpg) with a winter scarf (http://shaadivows.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/sherwani2.jpg) to preserve the "Royal / Enlightened" feeling?

...I mean, come on (http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/3/36/Janus.jpg)! :o

Here's my proposal (check the attachment). (Yes, to be a good artist you also have to learn Architecture, Photography and Fashion Designing sometimes; sucks, aye?)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on December 09, 2011, 08:09:34 am
Okay, I'm an impatient fellow. I went ahead and drew it anyway.  :P

One with scarf (can be redone), one without. Pick your best. (Darn, he looks older...)

Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: TheMage on December 10, 2011, 03:19:29 pm
I kinda like the scarf :D
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on December 20, 2011, 11:21:11 am
Sorry for my absence, mates. I'm actually waiting for Angerona. XD

Anywhos, for those of you who need inspiration, here's some art:

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/353/f/8/night_descents_by_sakimichan-d4jmbor.jpg) (http://sakimichan.deviantart.com/art/Night-Descents-274818987)
(http://th09.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2011/353/6/d/mushroom_girls_by_aiki_ame-d4jl2vw.jpg) (http://aiki-ame.deviantart.com/art/Mushroom-girls-274760924)
(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/353/0/8/087c0bcd324e4f356c48d304eda08ce6-d4jmmpp.png) (http://shirotsuki.deviantart.com/art/Shade-274833277)
(http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/353/6/9/underwater_dreams_by_emperpep-d4jmc7b.jpg) (http://emperpep.deviantart.com/art/Underwater-Dreams-274819655)
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/272/f/2/wings__3__by_michia_mira-d4bcduh.jpg) (http://michia-mira.deviantart.com/art/Wings-3-260918297)
(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/114/3/4/342ebf83116d0db24258c5674dda0c66-d3etenb.png) (http://shirotsuki.deviantart.com/art/WALK-THE-BOY-206285159)
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/291/8/9/89dea7e88f684a6c72ed12998ee4471c-d311dew.png) (http://shirotsuki.deviantart.com/art/Badder-Wolf-183142184)
(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/151/4/b/4b1ff68a0133a1151b157b0517d160cf.png) (http://shirotsuki.deviantart.com/art/Let-s-Play-Rough-166024017)
(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/304/2/8/happy_halloween_contest_by_michia_mira-d4ek3em.png) (http://michia-mira.deviantart.com/art/Happy-Halloween-Contest-266316862)
(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/280/2/f/elf_boy_by_hellobaby-d4c3nrj.jpg) (http://hellobaby.deviantart.com/art/Elf-Boy-262190863)
(http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs46/f/2009/236/8/0/Dream_Goddess_by_hellobaby.jpg) (http://hellobaby.deviantart.com/art/Dream-Goddess-134566454)
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Angerona on December 21, 2011, 09:25:09 pm
Sorry for my absence, mates. I'm actually waiting for Angerona. XD



I'm terribly sorry for the absence, Tushantin. I spent a couple days trying to make an alternate coloring of your Janus lineart. To make a longstory short, I ended up feeding my artistic blockage and now I can't seem to be able to draw a single line. Until the last day of the year I will get into reclusion until I manage to finish a secret santa piece I promised (and ideally the Kiriban I have been owing for over a year) and I will be back with some sketches during the first days of the next year (Fortunately I got a couple weeks of vacations after that so I should be able to come up with something valuable, hopefully). I will make sure to login during the following days and comment. Right now I'm heading to the Janus card post.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: TheMage on August 09, 2012, 04:07:06 am
How is this going?
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on August 09, 2012, 04:57:22 am
How is this going?
We're on hiatus for a bit -- I have my exams, and Angerona's got some of her stuff to do. Although, since we're a community project, anyone can join in and make a card!

I'll probably be back after October, though. ;) Although, I've reserved November for Nanowrimo.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on August 16, 2012, 08:08:30 am
How is this going?
We're on hiatus for a bit -- I have my exams, and Angerona's got some of her stuff to do. Although, since we're a community project, anyone can join in and make a card!

I'll probably be back after October, though. ;) Although, I've reserved November for Nanowrimo.

I made a post or two drawing attention to this project, but I don't want to spam. the main thing is to get artists on board who are willing to provide the content. the majority of the cards are set in stone at this point, so anyone could jump in and provide illustrations. For those who want to be a Tarot Doctor, there are still selection issues for a handful of the cards, as seen in the discussion thread.

I'm always willing to contribute, but I can't do this alone. whenever activity picks up, I'll be around.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on August 16, 2012, 11:58:08 am
In that case, we'll simply need to find artists to collaborate. I have exams till October, and November I'll be focusing on NaNoWriMo. However, I have recently converted a friend to play Chrono games (LMAO) and asked if she wants to help. XD Let's see what she says. I do say, though, she's an excellent artist.

In either case, I'll still be around whenever I get net access if anyone needs. Just hit me a mail, or post anything here (I'll receive a notification).

xcalibur, feel free to make rough sketch ideas for the cards! The artists can then adapt the art into a full-fledged card eventually. I'm personally not satisfied with the way Janus card came about, so I "might" redo.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on August 18, 2012, 03:40:13 pm
xcalibur, feel free to make rough sketch ideas for the cards! The artists can then adapt the art into a full-fledged card eventually. I'm personally not satisfied with the way Janus card came about, so I "might" redo.

I might take this up! I have an artistic sense, but not the technical skills to deliver. I can doodle and sketch though, so I'll see about creating rough drafts that suggest how I'd like the card to turn out.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on February 04, 2015, 08:32:10 pm
MAJOR ARCANA

Fool - Chrono/the Player
Magician - Norstein Bekkler OR Belthasar
High Priestess - Schala
Empress - Queen Leene
Emperor - King Guardia OR Azala
Hierophant - Mother Brain OR Belthasar
Lovers - Crono & Marle
Chariot - Epoch
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Hermit - Belthasar OR Gaspar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Hanged Man - Gaspar AND/OR Robo
Death - Lavos
Temperance - Melchior
Devil - Magus
Tower - Mammon Machine                                 
Star - Marle w/ Pendant                                       
Moon - Dreamstone (w/ Queen Zeal?)
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone                                   
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger
World - Nu/Entity

where there are two different possibilities, I put OR in bold. where OR is bold, underlined, and italicized, it relates to the whole Guru issue (I'll address that next). I attempted to draw an arrow between Death and Judgement, since a choice on one sets the choice for the other.

The Guru issue is the conflict between fitting the 3 Gurus and the 7 party members. Almost everything fits, but then we have to place Robo. It seems that Hanged Man is most applicable, but Gaspar is there. We could set Robo there, bump Gaspar to Hermit (since that also kinda fits), then move Belthasar in turn to Hierophant, Magician, or elsewhere.
An unorthodox alternative to this would be to split the Hanged Man card between Gaspar/Robo. Or make it Belthasar/Robo - this might be easier to pull off, at a moderate cost to proper choice.

also, we had some issues with Azala. her role doesn't seem to fit the nurturing Empress too well. But a female Emperor would also be an ill fit. She may have to be assigned to the court, although the King and Queen of Guardia aren't totally ideal for Empress and Emperor.


ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling/Future Seed
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell

no issues here, everything fits.


COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune 
Queen of Swords-
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands-
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Jetbike Johnny

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles- Crono's Mom
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra
Page of Pentacles- Gato

King of Cups- Cyrus
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Kino
Page of Cups- Janus

This is still open to interpretation, but this is as far as I was able to take it. possible queens I know of are Queen Zeal, Azala, and Cronos Mom. also Queen Leene and Mother Brain, if they're not Trumps.


time periods - I favor adequate representation of the major eras of the game in the selections. naturally there are limitations, such as the uneven distribution of important personalities throughout time. the Major Arcana have a lot of the present, since 3 of the main characters are from there. The Court Cards are dominated by 600 ad. but as long as no one is neglected, it should be fine.

good/evil - I also want to have a balanced mix between good and bad. This isn't too much of a problem in the Trumps, except that it leads me to favor Dreamstone over Black Omen for Moon. frequently maligned tarot cards should have something less negative. However, I may have to sacrifice that in the case of Death - Lavos.
This is more of an issue in the court cards. I'm aiming for balance in the 4 court cards for each suit. Naturally, Cups is going to lean towards positive, but assigning Janus as the page helps balance that. Gato also helps balance Pentacles, and if the Queen is positive then that will be fine. Even if 3 of the swords are negative, Masa&Mune as king can balance that imo.

checking back a few years later, this is where I stand:


MAJOR ARCANA

Fool - Chrono (the Player?)
Magician - Norstein Bekkler (Chrono instead?)
High Priestess - Schala (flanked by beast/girl zeal statues instead of pillars)
Empress - Queen Leene
Emperor - Azala
Hierophant - Gaspar (in red Zeal robes, with chrono/marle/lucca/robo instead of acolytes)
Lovers - Crono & Marle (under Leene's Bell)
Chariot - Epoch (white and black exhaust streams)
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth) (or riding one, holding a stone lemniscate)
Hermit - Belthasar
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate (w/ kilwala, bullfrog, poyozo doll, cat, nu, doreen/dream species)
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Hanged Man - Robo
Death - Lavos (crashing into tyrano lair or destroying zeal, but not 1999)
Temperance - Melchior (repairing the masamune w/ dreamstone)
Devil - Magus (Ogre and Naga-ette in chains)
Tower - Mammon Machine (w/ Ruby Knife in it, and lightning as seen ingame)
Star - Marle w/ Pendant
Moon - Dreamstone (w/ Queen Zeal's reflection)
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone (+Wondershot?)
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger (on the summit of Death Peak)
World - Nu/Entity (with guardian soldier, reptite, mystic (imp), enlightened one)


ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell


COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune 
Queen of Swords- Mother Brain
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands- Queen Zeal
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Jetbike Johnny

King of Pentacles- Ozzie
Queen of Pentacles- Crono's Mom
Knight of Pentacles- Yakra (and/or Chancellor?)
Page of Pentacles- Gato

King of Cups- Cyrus
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Toma (or Kino or Doan)
Page of Cups- Janus


I put a fair amount of thought into this, and I think this should settle the chrono tarot, unless anyone would like to take up the debate again.

this project has been inactive for awhile, but anyone can take up the chrono tarot deck idea. if so, I'd like my thought to be put to use.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on February 06, 2015, 03:40:43 pm
Actually, I like em! Considering most of the other artists may have gotten on with their lives elsewhere, I'll probably re-take this project once I finish my current commercial and fan ones. It should help re-vamp my digital arts portfolio, giving me some variety.

That said, considering I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to Tarot, you'll need to provide me some basic symbolism on each card, what it should look like, what it should FEEL like, etc. Based on that, I can make prototypes. :)

Also, would you like to make this a commercial project with sales? To do that, though, we'll need to proceed this as a Chrono card project, but will need to remove Chrono references in the final stages, making them a completely original deck (kinda like writing a fanfiction of Twilight, then renaming it "Fifty Shades of Grey").

P.S.: Considering I've been learning magic recently, I've also been wondering if I could use the same designs to make another deck of cards specifically for Cardistry (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tdjh-7rJjw). LOL
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on February 07, 2015, 02:03:40 am
yea, people get busy with stuff, such is life.

I'd be more than willing to advise you or anyone else who chooses to take this up. chrono trigger and tarot are two things I definitely know (along with a number of other topics). The Rider-Waite tarot deck is one of the most popular, and its illustrations should definitely give you a good sense of each card. As for meanings, Syna's link http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/meanings/ explains them in a succinct and effective way.

of course, there's also the question of how much a chrono deck would deviate from the traditional designs. in some cases, you'd have to design the card in a different way. for example, for Death, you couldn't really have lavos riding a horse in armor. it would make more sense to completely change it to Zeal getting destroyed. you could try to stay closer to the original with Lavos Core stepping over fallen Zealians, but that might look odd.

I haven't thought about sales. I'm sure many people would want this as a collector's item. but if squeenix makes legal threats over a not-for-profit fan work, I'm sure they'd jump all over anyone selling chrono-themed merchandise. lol @ twilight/50 shades of grey. problem is, how much would have to be changed? Could it still be recognizably a Chrono-themed tarot while side-stepping legal issues?

I'm confident in my choices. I pored over this stuff, and I can provide an argument for each one. Linking chrono trigger with tarot (making the characters match with tarot meanings) was a pretty large task, but I think myself and Syna have accomplished that. Most of the things I'm still unsure of are details of how the cards should be, like which characters appear in the corners, or whether the knight of pentacles should be the yakra monster, the chancellor, or incorporate both identities.

there are only two more open questions at this point imo: the fool/magician, and the knight of cups.

as Syna suggested, the fool could be the player (with a controller pictured) and Chrono be the magician. my issue with this is that Chrono is like a stand-in or avatar for the player, so placing him as the fool has almost the same meaning. then, Norstein Bekkler can stay on as the magician.

knight of cups: this could be either Toma or Kino. Toma is a cool dude who roams the world drinking beer and giving useful advice. there are no negatives there.
Kino is known mainly for using poor judgment in swiping the gate key, which makes me want to demote him to page (but I'm not going to bump Janus from that spot). on the other hand, he's not all bad, he represents prehistory, and he could be riding a dactyl on his card which would be pretty cool.
Toma is my first choice but it could go either way.
eta: Doan could fit there too.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on April 21, 2017, 09:26:06 am
Shit, I don't understand why I no longer get notifications from the forums for responses and shit. I'll try enabling notifications again just in case, but if not I'll just bookmark this page so I can get back to it every time I get. Shoot me in the head for responding two whole years late. :/

I don't want anyone's hard work here to go in vain (and those two years have given me plenty of time to improve as an illustrator (http://tushantin.deviantart.com/art/One-Wild-Light-608708245)). Even if, say, we can't sell these cards despite allowing it to be available for free of cost, we need to figure out a business model that can compensate for the time and effort put in — not just mine, but everyone who's been greatly involved here.

Currently I was speaking with a friend who is a marketer who mentioned that art, in itself, can be a great marketing tool to sell other products that aren't associated with that art specifically. Perhaps fan-works can also work in a similar way?

So the question is, what are we willing to offer to the people who also want the Rider-Waite Major Arcana cards? :P
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on July 08, 2017, 12:58:45 am
not a problem.

I could see a Chrono Tarot Deck being included in a grab bag of merchandise, e.g. those subscription boxes where you sign up and they periodically send you a bunch of assorted cool stuff. That would definitely work for Chrono Tarot.

As I said earlier, I think the card selections and concepts are ideal or close to it. This project can come back to life at any time if there are artists willing to illustrate. My main concern is that my (and Syna's) ideas should be put to use and not disregarded.

Perhaps Fangamer could take over manufacturing/distribution.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on July 08, 2017, 08:35:29 am
Finally received your notification! I'm so happy.  :)

Yeah, that's actually a good idea. I had forgotten that fangamer existed. But before we can contact them, we might need to create a portfolio of the Major Arcana to see if they are willing to manufacture it. If that become successful, we could make a collectible series in different packages — such as Court cards and such.

I'll also try to utilize the illustrations I make for each of the cards to drive traffic to my Facebook page (to attract more clients) (https://www.facebook.com/cyanlos/). IF we get more traffic, we could upsell something else along with it, something original. XD I just have no idea what that would be.

Anywho, I've been hard at work trying to refine my artistic skills constantly. Once my current animation projects are finished (which should hopefully be done by mid-August), I'll take this one once again. Once I start, I can hopefully estimate it all to finish by Christmas.

P.S.: Thanks for all the work you, Syna and others have done so far! I'm sorry for not being so active, and will make sure they don't go in vain.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on July 09, 2017, 12:45:18 am
We should definitely have a complete portfolio of the Major Arcana before we reach out.

With the current popularity of retro gaming, there's definitely a niche for this sort of merchandise. It's just a matter of figuring out the business aspect.

and no prob. As much as I enjoyed speculating in Enhasa, I always wanted to get involved in Kajar and do something productive. The Tarot project gave me the opportunity to do so.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on July 09, 2017, 03:37:59 am
while I'm at it, more polish:

MAJOR ARCANA

Fool - Chrono (entering the Millennial Fair gate)
Magician - Norstein Bekkler
High Priestess - Schala (flanked by beast/girl zeal statues instead of pillars)
Empress - Queen Leene
Emperor - Azala (seated in her reptite throne)
Hierophant - Gaspar (in red Zeal robes, with chrono/marle/lucca/robo instead of acolytes)
Lovers - Crono & Marle (under Leene's Bell)
Chariot - Epoch (white and black exhaust streams)
Strength - Ayla (closing a sabertooth tigers mouth)
Hermit - Belthasar (in the future)
Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate (w/ kilwala, bullfrog, poyozo doll, cat, nu, doreen/dream species)
Justice - Frog w/ Masamune and Hero's Medal
Hanged Man - Robo (in Fiona's Shrine)
Death - Lavos (destroying Zeal or Tyrano Lair, definitely not 1999)
Temperance - Melchior (repairing the masamune w/ dreamstone)
Devil - Magus (Ogre and Naga-ette in chains)
Tower - Mammon Machine (w/ Ruby Knife in it, and lightning as seen ingame)
Star - Marle w/ Pendant
Moon - Dreamstone (w/ Queen Zeal's reflection)
Sun - Lucca w/ Sun Stone (+Wondershot?)
Judgement - The Chrono Trigger (on the summit of Death Peak)
World - Nu/Entity (with guardian soldier, reptite, mystic imp, enlightened one)


ACE CARDS

Ace of Swords - Ruby Knife
Ace of Wands - Gate Key
Ace of Cups - Zeal Sapling
Ace of Pentacles - Rainbow Shell


COURT CARDS

King of Swords- Masa & Mune 
Queen of Swords- Mother Brain
Knight of Swords- Slash
Page of Swords- Dalton

King of Wands- Spekkio
Queen of Wands- Queen Zeal
Knight of Wands- a winking Flea
Page of Wands- Jetbike Johnny

King of Pentacles- King Guardia XXI
Queen of Pentacles- Crono's Mom
Knight of Pentacles- Ozzie
Page of Pentacles- Gato

King of Cups- Cyrus
Queen of Cups- Fiona
Knight of Cups- Toma (or Kino or Doan)
Page of Cups- Janus

while the Major Arcana, Court, and Aces are mostly settled, the rest of the Minor Arcana is still wide open to interpretation. If we go for a complete deck, I think we could depict various scenes from the game on the remaining 36 suit cards. There's more than enough content in CT to do this, but filling in all the blanks would be a challenge. However, we can cross that bridge when we come to it.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on July 11, 2017, 08:54:59 am
For future reference, I'll provide a rationale for my choices.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Fool - Chrono. The Fool represents the querent. He is the protagonist of the journey, striking out boldly into the unknown. Likewise, Chrono is the avatar of the player. He doesn't hesitate to leap into the unknown and take on challenges, even if this turns out to be unwise. We considered making the Player the Fool (and Chrono the Magician), but I think Chrono is enough of an avatar that it works. Besides, Chrono's character is a better fit for the Fool, with his potential, courage, and (at times) recklessness.

The Magician - Norstein Bekkler. The Magician uses creative energy to unlock potential and make things manifest. Chrono could fit here, but Norstein Bekkler is a better choice. He plays the part, and he creates the clone which is vital for bringing back Chrono. His ability to manifest something as strange as a clone, his power to solve the party's dilemma, and his role in resurrection all point to the Magician. This is especially true because the Magician acts as a conduit between the heavens and the earth, and Chrono's resurrection alludes to this.

High Priestess - Schala. The High Priestess represents female divinity, the esoteric, and intuition. Schala certainly looks the part, she has great magical power, and she's enigmatic. She is directly connected to Magus' mysterious past, and her fate is one of the few loose threads at the end of the game.

Empress - Queen Leene. The Empress represents growth and nurturing of life. Queen Leene fits this role, especially since she is key to continuing the Guardian royal line.

Emperor - Azala. The Emperor represents male authority, order, rule of law, discipline, and power. Likewise, Azala is absolute ruler of the Reptites; capable of constructing fortresses, leading armies, controlling a Tyrannosaur, and governing her race. Her ability to enforce order on primal strength makes her an almost ideal fit. The one problem is that Azala is female, while the Emperor is male. However, this one contradiction can be permitted, since in all other regards she is definitely an authoritarian Emperor. She is certainly not a nurturing Empress, especially since her race went extinct.

Hierophant - Gaspar. It took me a long time to make this connection, but it is the correct choice (and it finally unraveled the Guru knot). The Hierophant represents spiritual leadership and communal traditions. While Gaspar looks like a Hermit, in fact he plays the Hierophant role to the hilt. He presides over the End of Time, which is a home base for your party. Throughout the game, he provides leadership, guidance, and information on what is happening and what to do next. He is the spiritual leader of the party, thus the Hierophant.

Lovers - Chrono & Marle. The Lovers is about relationships and desire. The whole adventure begins with a chance encounter between Chrono & Marle, Chrono risking himself to save her, and Marle defending his innocence. Throughout the story, we are given strong hints that there is chemistry between the two. They're not the only relationship -- there's also Lucca/Robo, Magus/Schala, Ayla/Kino etc. -- but theirs is the most prominent.

Chariot - Epoch. The Chariot is about motivation, decisiveness, and achieving victory. The fact that it is a vehicle is an obvious parallel with the Epoch, but there is more. The Epoch overcomes the obstacle of the sealed gate to continue your adventure, and it can crash right through Lavos' shell. Likewise, the Chariot can run over obstacles and break enemy ranks. The enhanced ability to travel through time and space fits well with ambition and energy of the Chariot.

Strength - Ayla. Strength, also known as Fortitude, is about taming one's primal energy and passions. By tapping into that raw energy in a disciplined way, you can get much more out of it. Ayla is primal energy par excellence, but she's not completely wild and out of control. She combines her raw power with discipline, morals, and a philosophical outlook. This can be seen at many points, such as her punishment of Kino, her leadership of the Iokans, and her frank views on the human/reptite conflict: "Win and live. Lose and die. Rule of life. No change rule." which is one of the best quotes from the game.

Hermit - Belthasar. The Hermit is about withdrawal from society, pondering, reflecting, and eventually re-emerging with new insights. Likewise, Belthasar lives a solitary life in the bleak future, with only a cybernetic Nu for company. While you can meet him in person, you cannot get much out of him. It is only later, after he succumbs to madness and/or death, that the party can reap the rewards of his solitary work and research (the Epoch, Poyozo dolls, insights into Lavos, etc.)

Wheel of Fortune - Time Gate. The Wheel of Fortune is all about luck and change. Likewise, the Time Gates send you on your adventure, and you have no idea when and where you'll end up. The card has several figures around the wheel, which should be replaced by the iconic characters I mentioned.

Justice - Frog. Justice is about fairness and impartiality. It's also about making painful adjustments to right wrongs and restore balance. Frog represents chivalry and fights for what is right. More importantly, he makes the difficult decision to let go of all his regrets, rejoin the party, fight Magus, and eventually make peace with Cyrus -- this definitely fits with making difficult adjustments to set things right. Frog wields the Masamune/Grandleon, and this is another powerful connection to Justice. The Masamune tests you in battle to see if you are worthy of it, regardless of who you are. And of course, there's that famous line -- "it's not who owns the sword, it's how you use it" which is concurrent with the concept of Justice.

Hanged Man - Robo. The Hanged Man is a card of introspection, inversion, suspension, and epiphany. It is about one's perspective being dramatically altered. Robo fits this to a T. When he is first activated, he is asked what he wants to do, and this comes as a shock to Robo. He spent his entire pre-1999 existence carrying out orders and following programming. Suddenly, his world is toppled, and he is in the paradoxical situation of being a robot with free will. He chooses to join the party as an assertion of his new identity. He breaks free of his old programming, even though he is viciously attacked by the R series and Mother Brain for doing so; likewise, the hanged man has an inverted perspective compared to everyone else who is upright. Another example is the Fiona's Forest sidequest. Robo spends centuries growing the forest, and is found in stasis in the shrine. He is suspended in limbo during this stretch of time, and this gives him unprecedented insights into the Entity.

Death - Lavos. Death is misunderstood. Yes, it can mean death and destruction, but it can also have the meaning of 'destroy and rebuild'. One has to burn away the dead wood so new shoots can grow. That's why I insist that this card not depict 1999 and its all-out destruction of the world. Instead, it should depict Lavos' fall in prehistory, or his intentional destruction of Zeal. In both of those cases, one way of life & civilization had to fall so a new one could take its place. The Reptites were destroyed so that humans could inherit the earth. Zeal was destroyed so the modern world could take its place. In either case, there is an ending which leads to a new beginning. Since Lavos plays this role in the world's history, he should be the Death card, notwithstanding the fact that Lavos is the villain and Death is not necessarily evil.

Temperance - Melchior. Temperance is about moderation and combining opposites to achieve synthesis. Melchior is a renowned smith of weapons and armor. There's also the juxtaposition between the fact that he's the Guru of Life, yet he makes weapons and equipment for battle. However, if you use weapons for the right cause, you can defend life, which is a synthesis between seeming opposites. His repair of the Masamune/Grandleon is another example of synthesis through careful work and the right proportions.

Devil - Magus. The Devil is another misunderstood card. He's not about being evil -- rather, he's about losing restraint, going to extremes, giving in to excess. The Devil is about power, carnal desire, and so on. Likewise, Magus seems like an evil villain at first, but he's more of an antihero. He leads the Mystics because he wants power, and he'll go to any extreme to save Schala and defeat Lavos -- even if that means joining the party who tried to destroy him. Magus' power, unorthodox methods, and extreme choices clearly identify him as the Devil. Besides, they match on an intuitive level.

Tower - Mammon Machine. The Tower is about tearing down falsehoods and punishing hubris. It is a dramatic downfall for overreaching arrogance and lies. The Mammon Machine is an ideal fit here. The Zealians deluded themselves into believing that living off of Lavos' power was a sustainable path. They were already on top of the world, and tried to siphon off even more power from Lavos in an attempt to attain immortality. For this overreaching hubris, their entire civilization was destroyed. The Mammon Machine, and the fall of Zeal in general, reflects the Tower.

Star - Marle w/ Pendant. The Star is a symbol of hope and guidance. Things may not be good now, but there is potential for the future. As long as you stay on the path, there will be help along the way. The pendant is the trigger that starts the whole adventure, and it becomes a boon later on, opening doors that previously blocked your path. It's like a guiding light, which is why it fits as the Star.

Moon - Dreamstone. The Moon represents the subconscious, imagination, intuition, the world of dreams, visions, and nightmares. Likewise, dreamstone has strange, enigmatic qualities. It can harness and store magical energy, including that of Lavos. It was used to forge the Masamune/Grandleon and the Pendant, but also the Mammon Machine. There's also that text in Zeal that describes the "strange red rock" with "powers beyond human comprehension" which created love and hate (implying that it caused humans to evolve or gain knowledge, like the pomegranates of the Garden of Eden). A substance with such dangerous power fits well with the Moon. I'd recommend Queen Zeal's reflection in the stone, so that 1) she gets referenced in the Major Arcana, and 2) to hint at the dark side or "lunacy" of the Moon.

Sun - Lucca. The Sun is about science, reason, clarity, and optimism -- the opposite of the Moon. Lucca has a strong affinity for science, technology, and reason. She is the mastermind of the party, and approaches problems with vigor and intellect. She is an ideal fit. In addition, the card could include the Sun Stone, or maybe the Wondershot charging up a bright ball of energy.

Judgment - Chrono Trigger. Judgment is about forgiveness, making amends, moving on from the past, resurrection and healing. The Chrono Trigger/Time Egg is a perfect fit for this. It brings you back to the lowest point, and allows you to change things for the better. Once Chrono is back, the party can finally move forward and complete their quest. There is also a literal sense of judgment in that you must earn the Chrono Trigger's intercession by putting in the effort (getting the clone, climbing death peak, etc.) to prove your dedication.

World - Nu/Entity. The World is about the universe, of course. It's also about completion and coming full circle. The Entity, the spirit of the planet, fits with this, as does the Nu. In particular, there is the famous line: "All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu." That sense of alpha and omega, the complete circle, fits well with the World card. There are also figures in the corner, representing the varied aspects and qualities of the universe. For Chrono Tarot, I chose representatives of four major cultures from different eras: guardian soldier, reptite, mystic imp, and enlightened one.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A final note about the Major Arcana: we wanted to fit all 7 party members and all 3 gurus, while still making selections that suited the meaning and style of each. The difficulty of this is what I mean by the "guru knot". Assigning Gaspar to Hierophant was the breakthrough.

As for the Minor Arcana, I won't discuss it in detail now. I will mention the qualities of the suits:
Swords: air, intellect, debate, nobility/military
Wands: fire, energy, ambition, creativity
Cups: water, emotion, faith, love
Pentacles: earth, body, possessions, wealth

Aces represent each suit in its quintessential form. The court cards are self-explanatory.

From this, hopefully you can see the logic behind all the choices I made. I strove for some amount of moral balance -- Janus as page of cups makes that suit a little darker, while Masa & Mune bring a positive note to Swords. I debated a bit over Queen of Swords and Queen of Wands, but the correct choices became clear: the power and ambition of Queen Zeal fits Wands; the militancy, logic, and persuasiveness of Mother Brain fits Swords.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on April 13, 2018, 07:47:01 pm
So maybe after Dream Splash, I would actually LOVE to tackle this project! I will go through the threads after I'm done with my Dream Splash work as I think this looks like a blast to do!If anyone wants to join me, just let me know!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on April 13, 2018, 10:40:34 pm
Hah, what a coincidence! I was just about to ping xcalibur (a year late rather than half... my bad, sorry) given that I've finished everything I needed to, and I have a few days free so I can finally give this a project a shot again.

PrincessNadia78, feel free to take it on as you like! The more the merrier. I'll start some sketches today myself.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: Kodokami on April 13, 2018, 11:03:11 pm
Tushantin! You're back! Hope you stick around for a bit :)

Yeah, it'd be great to see this project finished.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on April 13, 2018, 11:19:29 pm
Tushantin! You're back! Hope you stick around for a bit :)

Yeah, it'd be great to see this project finished.
Haha good to see you, Kodo!

Yeah, sorry about the disappearance. In case I don't stick around, feel free to email me and drag me back in. xD I can be a pretty lazy these days.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on April 14, 2018, 01:26:28 pm
All right, I'll start on the Strength Card, because that seems clearer and easy to start with.

I have a suggestion to make for anybody that wishes to contribute: Given how stringent copyright and trademark laws are, especially in countries like the US and UK, even if this is project is about the Chrono series, let's not call it that when you're actually submitting your entries.

Instead, we could call it something els. Like... Timekeepers' Tarot, perhaps? (I'm trying not to be too blatant by suggesting Time Trigger.)

The art could also reflect that. It doesn't have to have an exact likeness to the original characters -- try to subtly redesign them appropriately to something more modern -- that would make anybody believe they are original characters, and yet any Chrono fan would INSTANTLY notice that they are exactly the same characters as the ones in the games.

 8) Of course, that doesn't stop you from mentioning off-handedly that the art was inspired by the Chrono series.

The reason I'm saying this is because I've been having a lot of flagging against my own art, even "original" art, for the most ridiculous reasons. I made a poster design called Hero's Journey with completely original art and design, and yet it kept being removed without explanation. The only assumption I have is, perhaps (which I did not know before), is that Hero's Journey is a trademark protected by the Joseph Campbell Foundation, and they need to enforce their trademark by removing my art and other people's uses of it or else they risk losing it. That's not a risk any company can afford.

So is everyone okay with Timekeeper's Tarot?

EDIT: Just wanted to mention that I've found my previous template design for the back and front of the card to be stale and... pretty bad, tbh. Don't use it. Just make the card-art as you want, and we'll figure something out for the back design later.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on April 16, 2018, 01:18:30 pm
I love the name Timekeeper's Tarot!

It's ridiculous these days. You can't name anything without someone having a stick up their butt about it. Could you re-name the piece and repost it? It's the only solution I could think of. Also, thanks for the warning as I'm just starting out posting art online and that's good to know.

So right now I'm working on a piece for a coworker and it's difficult (she wants me to draw a pic of her grandson for her and wants to give it to her daughter as a Mother's Day gift) so once I'm done with that (I would say 2 weeks max) I'll be good to go, even with working on Dreamsplash. This project might help me get some ideas for it, because right now all I have is my fanfic that I'm planning on finishing and submitting. I need more ideas!! LOL

So I will definitely be going through the threads and such to get myself caught up on everything. I was wondering if we could actually get these printed at a place like Kinko's when we're done?

I'm so happy that other people want to join me on this! This project is going to be a BLAST!!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on April 16, 2018, 05:46:39 pm
Off-topic, but I have a question for you Tushantin...

So I've noticed people selling Chrono Trigger art on Etsy. Is that legal? I mean I'm assuming not but I wanted to know because it would sure be awesome to sell some of my Chrono Trigger art once I get good at it. I'm figuring it's not but I wanted to ask for sure.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on April 17, 2018, 03:41:01 am
So I will definitely be going through the threads and such to get myself caught up on everything. I was wondering if we could actually get these printed at a place like Kinko's when we're done?

So long as we're not infringing upon anybody's rights, I think we can safely get it printed anywhere. Besides, I also would like people to fund me on Patreon through this, so it works as a great advertisement material, even if it's free.  :wink:

So I've noticed people selling Chrono Trigger art on Etsy. Is that legal? I mean I'm assuming not but I wanted to know because it would sure be awesome to sell some of my Chrono Trigger art once I get good at it. I'm figuring it's not but I wanted to ask for sure.

Most likely it isn't... I'm not entirely sure just to what degree it's possible to sell stuff based on somebody else's copyright material, but I'm definitely certain that selling stuff based on somebody's Trademark is absolutely illegal and there's no grey-area about it. It's not necessarily always because they want to, but mostly because they have to by law. But all that depends on each country's laws and regulations; what's legal in your country might not be so in mine, and vice versa. This is also why Crimson Echoes was shut down, methinks.

So if there are lawyers who work at Square Enix who discover this and find this to be a problem, you'll likely find them shutting those sales down. Although, a lot of times small shops that create materials like these don't really get noticed until way later.

Although, I have seen artists like Nathan Sharp who sell fan-based products like original music based on an IP they don't own (like, video games -- Legend of Zelda, for instance). They do this by being clever with their approach to copyright and trademark laws: They don't actually infringe on the company's copyright or trademark rights, and instead just claim that this "original song" was "inspired by" that IP.

That's where I got the Timekeeper's Tarot idea from. Not exactly sure how effective it might be when it comes to a visual derivative, compared to an audio one, but we can take a tiny bit of gamble with that.  :P
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on April 17, 2018, 01:05:15 pm
Ooooo yay! I would definitely love a printed set when we're done, which is where I got the idea from. They will be my luckiest deck! LOL

Hey, free is the best. Ha ha!

That was what I was thinking. Don't get me wrong, I found some cute stuff, but personally, I wouldn't want to take that chance. It's different IMO if you do something for free as you are not making any money off of it. But when you're trying to sell stuff... methinks that's not a good idea.

I absolutely love the Timekeeper's Tarot name. It will be perfect!!
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on April 22, 2018, 11:37:03 pm
Timekeeper's Tarot sounds great.

I just made a big change to the court cards. until now, I had Ozzie as King of Pentacles, with Slash and Flea as Knights of Swords and Wands, and Yakra/Chancellor as Knight of Pentacles. My reasoning was that with Ozzie's coup d'etat and ability to establish a ruling line, he could outrank the others as a King, but now I'm not so sure. Ozzie/Slash/Flea are collectively known as the Mystical Knights, so it would also make sense to have all three as Knights. while I don't underestimate Ozzie's capabilities, he's a comic character for much of the game, so I'm not sure if he should be King. And by demoting Ozzie, that makes room for another character as King.

Thus, I've assigned Ozzie as Knight of Pentacles, bumped off Yakra/Chancellor, and crowned King Guardia XXI as the King of Pentacles.

I realize the other Tarot Doctors haven't been around lately, but if you have any thoughts or criticisms on my decision, feel free to let me know.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on April 23, 2018, 03:30:07 am
Sounds good to me! Nah, I don't have any opinions on the matter. I can't really speak much on something I know jack-shit about. XD So I'll leave this to your expertise, and I'm afraid you're on your own on this one. I'll just handle the illustration side.

Tell you what: Make a separate thread of your own, outlining everything you have in mind (with some posts reserved for yourself in case of necessity), detailing everything that an illustrator ought to know. I'll pin it.

Feel free to list everything you like, though take your time on the court cards. For now, we'll just be focusing on completing the Major Arcana, so that we can finally proclaim the project as "complete" once that's done. Everything else will be add-ons, in case we also find other illustrators.
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on April 23, 2018, 06:11:55 pm
So what I'm wondering is do we have a list of who is taking what? Because I don't want to start a card someone else is doing. Also, is there is a list and I missed it, I'm apologizing now.  :D
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: tushantin on April 23, 2018, 06:47:00 pm
So what I'm wondering is do we have a list of who is taking what? Because I don't want to start a card someone else is doing.

Just pick a card and go for it! Doesn't matter which. You can even take Ayla, the Strength card, which I'm recently doing, if you feel like it. We can always have multiple versions of the same card.

Here's xcalibur's list (although I do wish he'd create a formal thread for himself and everybody else for me to pin it): https://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=8974.msg224792#msg224792
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: PrincessNadia78 on April 23, 2018, 07:54:04 pm
Thank you! The first one I'm going to tackle is The Lovers, as, in case you didn't know, I'm a huge Crono/Marle fan.  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Chrono Tarot cards project. Any ideas?
Post by: xcalibur on April 23, 2018, 07:58:19 pm
(although I do wish he'd create a formal thread for himself and everybody else for me to pin it)

I'm capable of taking a hint. I'll get on it.