Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Zephira on April 13, 2010, 02:14:33 am
-
As there are many intellectuals, historians, and artists here, I figured a discussion of mythology would be the best marriage of the three.
After reading the Sandman series, and noticing the similarities between this and certain video games, I realized just how rich the various bodies of mythology are. My interest had been piqued, so I took to studying Greek mythology, which most saturates our modern world. As expected, what I knew of Greek myths (especially what Disney has taught me) was completely wrong. I've studied quite a bit so far, but I know that I am missing quite a bit.
The point of this thread is to share resources for studying myths, legends, and poems (even modern ones), and hopefully to discuss our varied views one these subjects.
To get us started on the collection part of things, a few items of interest:
Theoi Greek Mythology, a very in-depth encyclopedia of the Greek gods. (http://www.theoi.com/) I have yet to explore it completely, but it's a great resource.
The River Styx. (http://www.theriverstyx.net/site_index.shtml) Nowhere near as professional as Theoi, but it contains nice summaries if Theoi proves tl;dr.
Homer's works, in various translations. (http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/homer.htm) I haven't read them yet, but they're on my list.
These are great beginning places, including a scan of google and wikipedia, and a trip to your local library.
Now that that's out of the way, the discussion part! I have a question for all of you, before you spoil your mind with the knowledge above:
What do you know of Hades, and what are your thoughts on the lord and his realms?
-
Well, to be honest. The first time I know Hades was when I was playing FF9.
The name, as how it is translated in the dictionary, only reminds me of the underworld.
-
Wow, now this is MY kind of thread!
There's this dude who often drops by at the cafe I work in and calls me Loki for my ingenious and dastardly creativity (although these days it seems my imagination has been waning as I learn more), he's taken up learning specifically about Greek/Norse mythologies as a hobby, especially since the culture has influenced the Indian ones greatly.
But the funny thing is that from all what I've researched so far, most of the folk tales from various places have quite horrifying similarities - with some uniqueness mind you - which can be explained by the extent of trade and travel, direct or indirect, between the continents at those times. But there were ALSO those which mark resemblance even before long distance migration of mankind had flourished, thus stating that most of the folk tales throughout the world may have but a few (or perhaps even one) source.
Even so, what perplexes me is mostly of the hidden Irish races of the Fairies/Faeries (Fae Spirits). The origins are widely varied yet I can't seem to find the very first of mentions of these mysterious fiends. Of course, initially they were never meant to be children's story telling elements, but despite that the origins have escaped into oblivion while the writers themselves invented their own suitable creations that at times seem illogical when seen pseudo-scientifically.
For instance, one of the legends speak of the fairies being the descendants of the Tuatha De Danan of the skies (they were also considered Fairies, but historically that was the title given to some Druid priests perhaps), driven out of Ireland by Demons and Humans alike, while another legend states that the fairies are actually a dead man's endless dream. And yet another that, when a first born baby laughs for the first time a fairy is born.
-
This is an awesome topic. I love mythology!
Most of what I know about Hades comes from that book of mine that you read, though, so at this point you're probably more knowledgeable about him than I am.
I spent quite a while studying the differences between Minerva and Athena; best as I could tell, none of the people who sculpted either of them recognized that they were left-handed. A common mistake!
I'm still waiting for the Intelligent Design people to get back to me on my recommendation that if we teach "all the alternatives" to evolution, we include a unit on Norse creationism. Now that's some tasty victuals right there!
-
Faerie is another interesting realm. The most I know of it is from various Neil Gaiman works. The concept of "fairy" has evolved quite a it over the years. Fairies used to be vile little creatures that played tricks on people and stole babies from their cribs. Somehow, they became these friendly little things that grant wishes and frolic through the woods. It's a very baffling jump. Myths and perspectives do change over time, but I'd like to know how such an extreme shift could happen.
Some reading on the subject: http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/rrfairies.html (http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/rrfairies.html)
-
I believe that shift in perspective on fairies is mostly a product of 19th-century romanticism--the people of that era seemed to be intent on filing the hard edges off a lot of things, and why should mythology be exempt? Mind you, there's some evidence that the Irish fairies, for instance, got their start as pagan deities, so the whittling-down has been going on for quite some time.
Still, some fairies always have been helpful to humans who paid them the correct wages and/or appropriate respects. Many British fairies were said to do agricultural work; the Heinzelmanchen of Germany preferred to help out tailors and other tradesmen, and the humble household brownie would clean your home for you in return for a bowl of milk.
(The book I have open by my elbow right now, in case you're curious, is The Vanishing People: Fairy Lore and Legends, by Katharine Briggs, ISBN 0-394-73740-7--there's no way I'd remember a name like "Heinzelmanchen" on my own. I read a lot of books of folktales as a kid, and managed to acquire a couple of more serious and scholarly volumes on mythology along the way, although I haven't re-read any of them in years. Now I'm off to look for more headache pills.)
-
I feel woefully under-informed in venturing a suggestion, but nevertheless my suggestion is that a few pivotal works at the dawn of the age of the mass media helped popularize a different breed of faerie to a new generation of people. From the Tooth Fairy to Tinkerbell! I wonder if the increase in urbanization allowed faeries and other magical spirits to transition away from being threats (to vulnerable rural people) to instruments of nostalgia (the magic of the countryside).
-
I have "Mythology" by Edith Hamilton. It's one of my favorites and a well-known classic. I recommend it for anyone wanting to learn about Greek Mythology in a fun way because Hamilton's writing style makes the stories really come to life.
-
One thing I love about mythology in general, as it applies to almost all polytheist religions, is the distinct lack of a good vs. evil among gods.
Zeus slept around, Odin was starved for knowlege and drank from that damned fountain, Hades got lonely and trapped Persephone in his home (which he named after himself) Ha! These are very human urges, for the most part.
It wasn't the good god vs. the bad god/devil. There were beasts who were supposed to represent true evil at times, but the gods themselves were not perfect, in fact they were VERY flawed in the Greco/Roman, Norse, and Egyptian religions in particular.
Whereas Hell in Christianity is supposed to be a bad place where people go when they die, Hades(Greek), Pluto(Roman), Hel(Norse), and Tuat(Egyptian) didn't have such a "bad" connotation. These were simply thought of as the underworld, the place you go after you die here, regardless of your actions while alive.
It's interesting, then, that Christianity actually uses the concept of Hell as a fear-spreading device, recruiting people into the religion by choice because they fear what would happen if they were to go to Hell.
I'm sure the aforementioned religions/bodies of mythology were mandatory in their respective societies, but it's still really interesting.
-
The thing that best sets Hades apart from the Christian hell is that it also contains the Greek equivalent of Heaven.
The Underworld is a vast place where all souls go to be judged by three sons of Zeus; the Judges Minos, Rhadamanthys and Aecus. These three determine the worth of a soul, and where they will ultimately end up. Good souls and heroes go to Elysium, also called the Elysian Fields and the Blessed Isles. This is a paradise where virtuous souls came to rest as long as they wished, before they reincarnated. The specifics on the Island of the Blessed vary greatly between myths, but a search of Theoi for Elysium can explain in greater detail.
Next is the Asphodel Plains. This area is much like Purgatory, or Homer's notion of a condensed Underworld. Here go the souls who weren't evil, but also weren't remarkably good. There is no punishment, but neither is there paradise or pleasure. Asphodel is an area of contemplation, where a soul can study his life, see where he went wrong, and learn lessons for his next reincarnation.
Third, and most notorious, is Tartarus. This is the area most like hell, where truly vile souls are sent to be tortured, and where the Titans and Giants who did not bow to Zeus are imprisoned.
It's hard to use your religion's hell to spread fear when it also encompasses heaven, yet people still fear this region most of all.
What would things have been like if Hades and Zeus, while keeping their respective personalities, got eachother's realms when they drew lots?
-
Check out Hesiod's Theogony and Works and Days. These are quite possibly the best compilations of Greek mythology from the pre-Golden Age to the Iron Age, coming from the era of Homer.
As for Hades; what I know of him is his duty to watch over the dead souls, titans and dissenters of Zeus, his kidnapping of Persephone, Demeter's daughter, his helmet of invisibility (later possessed by Perseus) and his 'dog' killed by Herakles in his twelve trials. Beyond that, all I know of him is random genealogy trivia.
Zeus is a much more interesting character, to be sure. Nothing quite like an ungodly, powerful, power-hungry, egomaniacal (nb not omniscient, though) god running the show. He led the onslaught against his elder generations, ate his first wife because he didn't want his son to be born, took the lion's share of power after the defeat of the titans (leaving* virtually nothing to his sisters, the sea to his brother Poseidon and the underworld to his other brother Hades; keeping the heavens, the earth, the smoking bolt, and all other things all to himself. Because of this most, if not all, power and prognostication in Greek myth is said to derive from Zeus) as well as single-handedly defeating Typhus, the last of the 'titans' to be born.
Truly, if there is to be a 'God', it'd be more likely to be the selfish, non-omniscient, hypocritical Zeus than the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good Judeo-Christian counterpart. Though to note, they both seem to have the mentality of 'no gods before me.' :P
*Because Zeus 'became' the first born after freeing his siblings and a rock from the stomach of Kronos, his father, he was the one to delegate the powers of the defeated titans.
-
By most accounts of Heracles' trials I've read, he asked Hades if he could just take the dog. Hades gave his blessing, but only if Heracles' could defeat Cerebus without any weapons. Heracles won, so he was allowed to lead Cerebus out alive, and then return it.
I'm going to have to check out these books. Thanks!
-
Hey, dude, can you go to the Compendium and tell all those theorizing on myths that Hades is going to cast them all to Tartaros for being so impious as to dare debate the nature of the gods?
Why me?
Because I kicked myself off the Compendium?
And you're the only one that posts on here that I know?
And because it'll be awesome, like a ghost from the underworld, since I'm effectively dead on there?
Ah, nevermind, if you don't want to, just thought it would be amusing.
(Not to mention, you're the harsh one, heh.)
You're welcome.
-
Luckily, Hades isn't a jerk. The only people he cast into Tartarus of his own initiative were the man that tried to steal his wife, and the man who resurrected the dead and emptied his domain. Most others are sentenced by the Judges, or ordered down by Zeus. Hades doesn't care about anything of that nature, but he would acquiesce should Zeus condemn someone.
Besides, is it so impious to honor Hades? I'm still trying to find an instance of him ever abusing his powers. Still no luck.
-
Bekkler, Norse mythology varies quite a bit by region and era, but it is generally incorrect to say that Hel is where the dead went. There were, oddly enough, four potential places for the dead to go. Valhalla, of course, being one of the more famous. Half of the dead in a battle were dedicated to Odin in that regard. The other half, however, were sometimes said to go to Frigg/Freya. Then those who died a "straw death" (that is, died in bed of old age) might go to Thor's hall. And some people did in fact end up in Hel's halls, which weren't very nice, being constructed of snakes.
The curiosity here, however, is that the dead in Hel's halls would, at the end of the world, fight against the gods, while the dead in Valhalla would fight with the gods. The afterlife could be a punishment or reward, but it was also a waiting place.
As for Odin and the Aesir in general, they differ from the Greek/Roman gods in that a lot of their actions ties back to a general purpose (which isn't always apparent and probably wasn't always included in the original tales). That is, Ragnarok. Odin sacrificed his eye to drink from the well in order to gain knowledge, which allowed him to be one of the few people to know how the end of the world would happen. Tyr lost his right hand in order to bind Fenris, giving the gods (and mortals) time to prepare for the end (and he marked himself as untrustworthy; he lost his hand since he had lied to Fenris). Thor was double-marred; his hammer was imperfect due to the influence of Loki (and Loki was malicious, in some tales, due to the gods rejecting him), while he had a nail in his forehead, which he received in a battle against giants. The only major male god to have not been harmed in some way defending or preparing for Ragnarok was Frey, who sold his sword for a wife, yet he too would fight and die at Ragnarok.
Norse mythology wasn't exactly good vs. evil, but it was "The Home Team vs. The Visitors."
And finally, speaking of mythology, I highly recommend godchecker.om
It tends to present technically correct but humorous information regarding various pantheons, deities, and Christian Saints.
-
I was being vague because it's been a while since I studied Norse mythology. It is, however, one of the most "flavorful" I think, along with some African and Aztec mythology.
By flavorful, I mean very distinct and elaborately set-up, with meticulous details that for some reason don't catch mainstream popularity like Roman and Egyptian mythologies do.
Even Greek mythology doesn't get enough play. When a movie or TV show is made that includes Heracles, for example, they use the Roman name Hercules, which immediately mixes the two and kills the joke about how much Hera hates the guy. Her husband cheated on her AND had a kid with a lowly mortal woman, AND named him after the wife! That was lost in (Roman) translation, and takes some of the fun out.
Kind of like how Christian mythology took the parts of Judaism they liked and changed a little around *ducks for incoming bricks* :lol:
-
I guess I'll make a few more recommendations:
The Epic of Gilgamesh--racy, violent and thought provoking. Has interesting tie-ins to Christian lore and Greek myth.
The Saga of the Volsungs--lotta Norse myth in this one--quintessential even. Humorous, dramatic and violent. Very episodic, if you don't notice at first.
-
XD But what about the most anime-used mythologies? What of our beloved Japanese cultures? Hah!
The legend of Susanoo, the Shinto God of Sea and Storms, brother to Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi.
Yamata no Orochi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamata_no_Orochi)
-
I figured this was on topic. Has anyone read Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods? It's a great book with a unique take on mythology.
Without giving anything away, it's about ancient gods and mythological figures trying to survive in a country that doesn't have any native gods. When people moved to America they brought over their beliefs, but these became bastardized or forgotten over the years. It's interesting to see the American aspects of these gods. For instance one of the few reminants of Norse mythology in the U.S.A. are the names of the days of the week.
Anyway it's an amazing read and fantastic for mythology buffs. I was really enjoying figuring which characters were which gods...etc. They never explicitly state which god the main character is, but I have my guess. If you haven't read it, please do.
-
If we're noting sources, then "Forty Old Icelandic Tales" translated by W. Bryant Bachman are fantastic. They're actually fragments taken from a variety of other sources, but they are often short, witty, educational, and amusing, all at once. And a few of them are good if you ever need to tell a ghost story.
-
I figured this was on topic. Has anyone read Neil Gaiman's novel American Gods? It's a great book with a unique take on mythology.
Without giving anything away, it's about ancient gods and mythological figures trying to survive in a country that doesn't have any native gods. When people moved to America they brought over their beliefs, but these became bastardized or forgotten over the years. It's interesting to see the American aspects of these gods. For instance one of the few reminants of Norse mythology in the U.S.A. are the names of the days of the week.
Anyway it's an amazing read and fantastic for mythology buffs. I was really enjoying figuring which characters were which gods...etc. They never explicitly state which god the main character is, but I have my guess. If you haven't read it, please do.
That sounds RIGHT up my alley! Buying on Amazon now.
-
Norse mythology wasn't exactly good vs. evil, but it was "The Home Team vs. The Visitors."
A lot of mythology falls into that category, although it's generally presented as "gods from Heaven vs. gods from Earth," and generally the ones from Earth get horribly shafted. Zeus and co. massacred the Titans, the Egyptian gods descended to rule as pharaohs, the far east pantheons conquered the earth spirits, etc. The one main thing that does separate Norse myth from the others is that the Norse gods are fated to have revenge taken upon them in Ragnarok. Of course, this wraps Norse mythology around Ragnarok like a vine, which does make for some epic and sometimes humorous tales.
Also, totally behind any American Gods hype.
-
Let me again be the lone voice shouting into the hurricane of popularity: I didn't like American Gods. Neil Gaiman has always been hit or miss with me; I keep wanting to give up on him, and he keeps coming up with something to just barely scrape and peck his way into the fringes of my appreciation. But American Gods was one of those works of his that laid pretty cleanly on the side of "Yecch."
Then again, that doesn't amount to a suggestion from me that you not read it. I'm rarely against people reading stuff. Mostly I'm just being crotchety at the near-universal praise of yet another overhyped piece of "mainstream alternative" fiction.
-
Let me again be the lone voice shouting into the hurricane of popularity: I didn't like American Gods. Neil Gaiman has always been hit or miss with me; I keep wanting to give up on him, and he keeps coming up with something to just barely scrape and peck his way into the fringes of my appreciation. But American Gods was one of those works of his that laid pretty cleanly on the side of "Yecch."
Then again, that doesn't amount to a suggestion from me that you not read it. I'm rarely against people reading stuff. Mostly I'm just being crotchety at the near-universal praise of yet another overhyped piece of "mainstream alternative" fiction.
That's a fair opinion. I don't like everything he does, but I love his ability to humanize gods. It's not an original concept by any means (something Gaiman himself admits constantly), but in my opinion no one does it better.
-
Let me again be the lone voice shouting into the hurricane of popularity: I didn't like American Gods. Neil Gaiman has always been hit or miss with me; I keep wanting to give up on him, and he keeps coming up with something to just barely scrape and peck his way into the fringes of my appreciation. But American Gods was one of those works of his that laid pretty cleanly on the side of "Yecch."
Then again, that doesn't amount to a suggestion from me that you not read it. I'm rarely against people reading stuff. Mostly I'm just being crotchety at the near-universal praise of yet another overhyped piece of "mainstream alternative" fiction.
Any other suggestions, then?
-
It doesn't directly cover Earth deities, but The Silmarillion is my favorite mythological work and one of my favorite books overall. When I was at the height of my crush on Celtic history, I read Táin Bó Cúailnge which is still among my favorite mythological works. Going back to the era of children's stories, and tackling one of the world's major religions as "myth" (which is my wont), one of my favorite mythological works from youth is The Cat Who Went to Heaven. As an adult I think you would find it a quick read--quite unlike the other two--and still meaningful.
-
http://us.macmillan.com/zeuskingofthegods (http://us.macmillan.com/zeuskingofthegods) Comics! The series is fairly new, the first book only released this January. The second, following Athena, was released last month. There are supposed to be ten more.
Probably not the most accurate accounts, but the series is aimed at junior high students, with study guides floating all over the place. It should be good as a refresher, or at least an entertaining read. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to obtain a copy of either book, but the excerpts are pretty awesome.
-
I finished reading "The Red Pyramid" last weekish and I must say that it was quite enjoyable. I am pleased that mythology is making a return and even more so that it this time it is Egyptian mythology. Greek and Roman may be my least favorite, since it gets so much attention. I'm bitter that way.