Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Reality, Real-World Connections, and the Supernatural => Topic started by: Chrono'99 on December 07, 2003, 11:54:15 am
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Being a fan of greek mythology, I was surprised to read somewhere that the Giants weren't just giant humans, but tailed humans with serpents on their head... kinda like dinosaurs... or Reptites?
Whatsmore, the term Giant/Gegantes in greek means something like "born from Ge" (Ge/Gaia is the goddess of Earth).
So, I began to compare the greek cosmogony with CT and I've found that it matches in some ways CT AND CC storyline.
Gaia asks Cronos to kill Uranus
The Entity (Earth) guides Crono to make him kill Lavos
Cronos didn't kill Uranus, he just castrated him
Crono didn't kill Lavos, he just sent it into the DoT
The blood of Uranus shed on Gaia created the Giants
The non-destruction of the future by Lavos made the Dragonians in contact with this world
Cronos became the king of universe
Crono became the prince of Guardia
Cronos devoured his children
Crono, by erasing the original future, sort of "killed" the "children" of the present people
Cronos ate a rock instead of Zeus
Lynx/FATE killed Serge in Another World but not in Home World
Zeus beat Cronos and became the new king of universe
Errr... Serge is the Arbiter of Time eh?
Gaia sent the Giants to defeat Zeus and his folks
The Planet wanted to defeat Serge and the humans
Zeus even defeated the Gaia's champion, Typhon
Serge defeated the Dragon God
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Note : In the mythology there's also often a confusion between the names Cronos (with a kappa)and Chronos (with a khi).
The Titan Cronos is the just the father of Zeus, while Chronos is the representation of Time (with the sand glass and the scythe...)
Since it's very hard to remember every myths all at once, this comparison isn't complete and fully detailled... yet...
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Excellent. You know, since the Chrono series already represents a few myths, I may check out other famous mythologies and see if there are further similarities. It's amazing how this game matches up...
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Also, check out http://mythology.terrapolis.org/Mythology.htm for similar insight into Square's games.
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As for the religion aspect, Square often makes references to Kasmir Shavism (hinduism) with references to shiva and other deities. As soon as I can track down my stupid AD resource, I will elaborate further on this religion, and the beliefs surrounding Shiva. (I believe a request was made to do this on the old site)
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As for the religion aspect, Square often makes references to Kasmir Shavism (hinduism) with references to shiva and other deities. As soon as I can track down my stupid AD resource, I will elaborate further on this religion, and the beliefs surrounding Shiva. (I believe a request was made to do this on the old site)
Yes...are you going to finally give in and go to the Whitstapo for all of that?
(Note to others: The Whitstapo refers to my senior year English teacher, who was also our high school's Academic Decathlon sponsor...a bit of a Nazi--hence the nickname--but a good teacher.)
Well, back to writing my papers while getting over my own vodka-induced crapulence.
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All right, I apologize sincerely for posting on such a long dormant thread, but I hadn't seen it before, and it just now caught my interest.
Firstly, in regards to the religions and calenders (which, in topic, seems to cross over with the thread relating to real world influences), I would say that almost certainly Guardia is Christian, and thus so is Crono (or, at least, in name). As you have said, the calendar is based on the Christian one, the years being counted in AD, ie. Anno Domini, the Year of our Lord, which is a distinctly Christian measurement (at least in so far as measuring from the year 0 occurs). Thus in all of my own writing I portray that land as fundamentally Christian. I would generally agree with what is said here concerning the various religious affiliation that appear in Chrono Trigger/Cross. (Though I go so far as to hypothesise that the Chrono universe is, until about the year 100, little different from our own, save that a great continent lies in the mid-atlantic. During the time of Rome's persecutions a centurian, turned to Christianity, leads his legions across the sea to this island, which he then calls Guardia. This all makes Chrono Trigger more of a parallel universe to our own, and keeps many of the historical events of our world, such as Greece and Rome, and ancient Egypt. A true historical split would then occur at about 600 with the appearance of the Mystics, presumably in place of the Islamic religion which arose at around a similar time.)
However, I do have a comment or two in regards to Chrono'99. I would like to point out that the Giants being portrayed as lizards is likely a very localized myth, believed in only a small portion of Greece (as so often occurred); I, for one, have never read of the Giants being so, and I have read quite of bit of Greek myth. What I know is that very often the myths were multi-faceted, and varied from city-state to city-state, and region to region. Generally they were multi-armed and headed, but not lizard-like. Also, I did some checking on the spelling of Cronus/Chrono in my dad's Greek-English Lexicon, and I found something interesting. True enough, Cronus, the god of the golden age, is spelled with a kappa. However there is a verb form that comes from the name, and that verb is used to signify something that has passed, I believe (I'm guessing this comes from Cronus' reign having been completed and passed on to Zeus); so from that, I would assume, comes the word for time, spelled with a chi. Thus I think the idea of Zeus' father Cronus is actually a godlike manifestation of the concept of time. Janus actually bears passing resemblance to Cronus himself. For it is Cronus that weilds a sickle (with which he castrates the sky, at the behest of the Earth); later, in Roman myth, Cronus is identified with Saturn, that is father time, and he carries a scythe and hour glass. Janus, in the Roman myths, is the equivalent of Uranus in Greek, though there is no hostile takeover: he relinquishes his governship happily.
The myths seem to coincide at times, but the reason is not that it was intended that way, but rather the same reason that Tolkien's mythology is so similar to actual myths and events: he wrote his stories in an applicable way, and parallels, though he did not intend them, are easily made. He said so himself. In the same way Chrono Trigger, by drawing on the basic foundations of myths and legends in its stories often inadvertently parallels them. Though I would caution against the parallellisms that are brought up with Crono and Cronus; that is shaky, at the best. There is far more making Crono and Cronus different than similar. Cronus, for example, was not only a tyrant, but least of the Titans; yet it is in exchange for his facing of Uranus that the others make him their leader. He is fearful of losing his power, and not very wise.
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There are no "dead" forums on the Compendium.
I agree that Guardia in 600 and 1000 AD alludes to Christianity, or an organized religion of that kind. Considering that a god-like entity is demonstrated to exist, I wonder who or what the humans worship. We can see how the nature of the people's spirituality changes over time
65 million BC
There is no religion or perhaps religion in its most primitive and purest form. The humans and reptites live in harmony with the natural world. I suppose this era could be compared to the Garden of Eden (I should check the CT Testament). There is reference to “mother earth” which may mean the humans and reptites revere the planet, which we know has a life and power all to its own.
12000 BC
The Enlightened humans have turned their backs on the planet and consider themselves to be the pinnacle of existence. Zeal has definitely become a perversion of the natural order seen in the past. Lavos is the most important force in the lives of the Enlightened Ones. In Algetty, the Earthbound humans continue to live in harmony with the planet.
600 and 1000 AD
Humanity's faith has been reaffirmed, although it has changed from the primitive mysticism into organized religion. Formal places of worship as well as holy orders exist.
Due to the Magus' propaganda, the Mystics worship Lavos as a god of destruction which will eliminate the human race. After Crono's intervention this changes, but the outcome is unclear.
2300 AD
Humanity has lost all hope. No religious beliefs exist. How this changes in the new timeline is unknown.
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The faith in Zeal is simply that...zealous...
Their god is Lavos, and Lavos performs the functions of deity perfectly for them. It's not that the Zealians didn't have faith, it's simply that they had faith in Lavos rather than the Planet. While Guardia is clearly analagous to a Christian kingdom, it's unclear what is worshiped by the people of Guardia. The Cathedral is abandoned in 600 A.D. and never restored.
To what holy orders do you refer?
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There are nuns in 600 AD and 1000 AD.
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But in 600 A.D. they turn out to be Nagas and in 1000 A.D. they don't show up until Fiona's Shrine, although that does give more cerediblity to the thought that the religion in Guardia is a form of nature worship.
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There is one in San Dorino.
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Don't know if we can generalize this to the whole El Nido or even Zenan, but General Viper sometimes say "Good Lord! and "God be with you!", so he seems to worship a monotheistic God.
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The politics of the main Zenan continent, from the look of the knights to the existance of an order of knighthood, is very much like any European power between about 800 and 1500. Thus the religion was almost certainly Christian (with scattered people still with old beliefs, and some Christian holidays and traditions and such merged with the Celts and Norse). Anyway, it is likely a state religion. Manoria cathedral is a relic, an old place of worship that might hearken back to the days of people like the old Celts; note that there is no cross in it, thus it has been out of use for a long time. From what the PSX cutscenes show, this was likely due to a newer cathedral nearer Truce. That cutscene also shows that the wedding is very Western styled, supporting the idea of the Christian belief in Guardia (and presumably the south continant as well). In this I include both 600 and 1000AD. Medina is likely of a similar sort, though we never really have any true picture of their belief system; by their takeover of the cathedral, it is inherently different from Guardia, but beyond that all we see is the legend-worship associated with their mythical Lord Magus.
In the West, I would agree with whoever said more Native, or perhaps Polynesian, beliefs. They are certainly shamanistic, that is for sure. At least those on Marbule and Guldove. The main isle is a bit of an unsurity. Porre, in connection to Zenan, might be Christian, though being militaristic might have abandoned all connection with religion. Viper and the Dragoons are not native to the islands...as the last post said, they appear monotheistic. Perhaps they, when they took over the islands, brought that with them; maybe another reason of conflict between the humans and demi humans.
In the future, as has been said, and I agree with, hope is lost. Religion might remain somewhat scattered, I think (it being one of the most basic of human thoughts), but not to the high extent of earlier times. Perhaps only a few still cling to it.
In the time of Zeal...someone has said Lavos, but I respectfully disagree. Lavos is a Power, a means to an end. But the very name of Zeal clues us in to their god, and in their ambition their beliefs are made manifest. They see themselves as gods, and think themselves accountable to no-one. Thus comes the quest for immortality, hearkening back to the first sin in the Garden of Eden (the outcome and quest differs: knowledge of good and evil as opposed to immortality, but the desire to "be like God" or "be gods" is no different, and is the cause of the downfall). Thus the religion of Zeal is a deifying of one's self.
Earlier on...this is a quandary. Most common thought would lead me to say a polytheistic animal and nature worship society, but I lately have my doubts as to that being the most primitive. I generally assumed that the most basic form of religion was polytheistic, and in time conglomerated (very suddenly at around 2000BC with Abraham; and no, I am not going by the Biblical dates, I know full well those are figurative. I am going by archeological evidence and assumption, and the comparison to various civilizations in existance at the time). But it appears I might be wrong. I've come now to understand that it's very possible that the oldest form of religion is monotheism, and that polytheism only came about to avert revolts and such. For in every culture there is a "great creator", and all the other gods after appear lesser. Whether this god manifests itself as a tangable aspect or not, it nonetheless exists. The Egyptians appear polytheistic, but the sect at Thebes held Amun to be a high and omnipotent god above all the others, and not unlike the Christian monothesitic god. Thus all the others, Ra included, would not be true "gods", but rather servants. For in the end, a polytheistic religion can never answer the basic question of "why?". Polytheism demands gods with finite powers that are a PART of creation; thus they cannot be the cause of creation. That cause is then the true god of the culture. Anyway, I didn't explain that all clearly; I was just enlightened as to it a few days ago by my dad, who told me it is very likely that the oldest form of worship is monotheism, contrary to common thought though it might seem, and that through time it fragmented into various sects and gods, representing emotions or animals that people saw (people being innately superstitious). Anyway, this leaves the time period of "65,000,000BC" up to debate; if it is true to this world, then it might be a monotheistic/polytheistic/shamanistic mix, but I'm not sure.
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Anyway, it is likely a state religion. Manoria cathedral is a relic, an old place of worship that might hearken back to the days of people like the old Celts; note that there is no cross in it, thus it has been out of use for a long time.
I disagree with your interpretation of the lack of crosses. While Guardia is certainly like a Chrisitian kingdom, it is doubtful that it is literally Christian. That world had no Christ, the switch from A.D. to B.C. was the result of the foundation of the Guardia kingdom, those lables used merely for the convenience of the player. The cross probably didn't exist as a symbol of religion, as there was no reason for it to. In the Cathedral, there is a stained glass window of an angel and some roses. Not sure what that is symbolic of in Guardian religion.
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Well, I can assure you it must literally be Christian. AD and BC have no meaning without Christ (AD being Anno Domini, in the year of our Lord, and BC being Before Christ). I believe there is a Latin form for "in the year of our land", but it isn't AD. The only other explanation might be that AD is in the year of the lord of Guardia...only the first lord's been dead a long time, so that wouldn't exactly hold true. And BC is irreconcilable. I realize you say that it is merely for the convienience of the player, but many of the other theories regarding Chrono Trigger that are held to be true could be interpreted as such as well. To make a long story short, Guardia was modelled on a midieval, European kingdom. Those were always Christian, and even the idea of knighthood and the style of swords hearkens to a Christian era. Furthermore...no other religion has Cathedrals that I can think of. It is purely Christian; they are temples, or Mosques, or something else, but the name "Manoria Cathedral" makes the religion of Guardia being Christian a neccessity.
Furthermore, I have always maintained that the Chrono world did indeed have a Christ. The timeline skips very suddenly from Zeal in 11,000 BC to 600AD. Recorded history in our world goes back to approximately 3,000 BC. The oldest walled city, Jericho, is only about 9,000BC. Thus it would not be incongruent to say that the Chrono universe has the same timeline as does ours; there is nothing to contradict it. Uruk, Assyria, the Hittites, Babylonia, Egypt, the Greeks and Romans...all these could exist in the Chrono universe (granted, there are only small islands shown, but I seriously doubt that that is the whole Chrono world...after all, it never shows El Nido on there, nor even a region where El Nido could be created). I always take the history of the Chrono universe to be parallell to our own till about the year 40, with the only difference being that there is a large island, the Zenan continent, in the mid-Atlantic. But up until about the year 40 (a somewhat arbitrary number, actually; it's what I chose in my writing to be the founding of Guardia, actually. But it's somewhat reasonable), there is no real difference between our world and that world; then it splits, and takes on its history, while we go to the empires of Europe and the crusades.
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If you want to take the Chrono world's history as parallel to our own, the analogy falls apart in the prehistoric era...Humans never coexisted with dinosaurs. Early humanoids didn't even begin to show up until about 7 million B.C., long after the extinction of the dinosaurs, and modern man is less than half a million years old.
I agree whole-heartedly that Guardia is modeled after a European, Christian kingdom. However, I cannot make the leap that it is actually Christian. The Mystic Empire is modeled after a Muslim kingdom. Are you also suggesting that there was a Mohammed in the Chrono Trigger world? And if you are assuming a Christ and a Mohammed, we must also assume all the ancient figures of Judaism are represented. That's a lot to base off of the modeling of Guardia after a Christian kingdom.
The switch from B.C. to A.D. is the foundation of the kindom of Guardia. This is clear in the game. A.D. could refer to "Anoitment of the Dominator" and B.C. could refer to "Before the Coming". Also, there is no reason to believe that there was a Christ figure at that time, or that there was any mighty emipre to perform a crucifixtion. For all we know, the first king of Guardia could have simply united a bunch of tribes.
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AD and BC mean what they mean; if you give them another meaning, then you could do the same to any number of things (I have enough issue with the accursed CE and BCE that arises now). There would be no Islamic religious figures because Islam did not rise till the year 640 some, at which point the paralell would have ended (though, yes, I would maintain that all the ancient figures of Judaism would exist, from Abraham/Abram, to Isaac, to Jacob, Moses, Joshua, the Judges, Saul, David, Solomon, Reheboam and Jereboam, and all the kings of Judah and Israel; just as the kings Sargon and Hammurabi exist as well. And does not the folly of Zeal echo of the folly of Babel itself? Or, perhaps, of the myth of the garden of Eden (note that myth is not innately untrue; it is merely a story of explanation). Is there not a flood in CT when Zeal falls? Are not a small remnant saved? Are not the wicked of Zeal wiped out? But as complex and detailed as CT might be, it is beaten every time by true history. Tolkien new this aspect of fantasy when he wrote Lord of the Rings, which is why he ties it in to the real world innately; I thought it wise to apply the same to CT, because doing so would provide far more breadth than a game could ever have). Next: true enough there is no evidence for human interaction with dinosaurs (or, rather, there was none; I don't think that is a matter of speculation), so perhaps it is a temporary alignment.
Let's put it this way, though. The game has several names that could not exist without certain cultures, unless you take them to be translations (but then why not into English?). Chronopolis is a Greek name, and thus Greeks must have existed. Else the city would merely have been called Time City. This breaks down with, as I have read here, Alfador havin a Norse meaning. But I have more solid proof. More telling, Miguel in no uncertain language says "Res Nullis". That is, without a doubt, Latin; no quirk of translation can get around it, as it is not a name but a spoken phrase. Also, I think, is Angelus Errare; a name, yet a phrase in a sense. How, then, do you explain the existance of Latin without the Latin tribes, and the Etruscan history that gave birth to Rome? There must be Rome; it is mandatory. Thus, in scientific terms, some history at least must coincide. And if it may, there is chance for others. Rome rises partially through Greek influence, and so then is Greece mandatory. It, in turn, is interconnected with other societies, returning to the origin of written history. Hydras are also a comminality with our own world. And as far as the ancient history in 65,000,000 goes... that's a little extreme, and perhaps wrong, because CC itself contradicts it (setting it closer to 3mil). But returning to the later times...again I say that the wedding tradition is typically Western, inspired by Christianity. Also, as a final capstone to the argument, the term of cathedral is meant to be the church where a bishop sits; bishops are a Christian concept, and thus too are cathedrals, echoing down to Guardia itself.
Now, here is my take on it (purely my own), but could be used without problem as an feigned explanation. In the year 40 a Roman commander, turned to Christianity, flees the persecution of the Emperor Caligula. Taking with him a few of his legions (and thus several thousand men), he colonizes the great continent that lies to the West of Europe: Zenan. Over the years the kingdom flourishes, though through some quirk of fate things occur differently (perhaps the influence of Lavos?). A race of Mystics, the very creatures that populate our real world myths (imps, fairies, elves, giants, trolls, and the such), arise from forgotten woods and shadows (this would be at the same time as our King Arthur tales take place, and would be analagous, perhaps; though in our world those things never existed, in the Chrono world they did). They arise and attempt to drive out the humans, at around the year 600. The rest is as we know. The reason, I say, that the foundation of Guardia is set to 0 is a thing that would not be unlikely in such a Christian culture; they feel that the kingdom is a land of guard (hence Guardia) for believers, and thus feel that the true foundation of their kingdom is none other then the birth of their High Lord, which is traditionally set to 0. So too, then, is the foundation of Guardia set to 0.
It is purely my own invention, but I cannot think of what might contradict it.
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So if you have a Moses, then you have a Pharoh...and pyramids and a sphynix. Can't recall seeing any of those on the map.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't bishops a specifically Catholic institution? If so, shouldn't there be a church heirarchy, complete with pope? In the medeival era, popes were more important than kings, surely we would have heard of a pope if one existed. But there is no mention whatsoever of a pope or pope-like figure.
Since the game takes place all (or mostly) in English, are we to assume that there was in fact an England? Or since the game was orginally in Japanese, are we to assume that there was in fact a Japan, and that Japanese had been around, mostly unchanged, for 65 million years?
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Of course they aren't on the map. Neither is El Nido, nor is the area where it is eventually created. Also Bishops are specifically Catholic, but not specifically Roman Catholic. The Eastern Orthodox split with the rest a long time ago, yet unless I'm mistaken they still have magnificent cathedrals, as well as bishops. Also, I would like to point out, that any church that follows the protestant reformation (such as the Lutherans) consider themselves to be the true Catholic church; there is a distinction with the Roman Catholics, based in Rome. They are the only ones that still hold to the papacy.
And yes, I do assume there was an England, and a Japan. The language of the game means very little. After all, the people of Zeal speak a common language with the people of modern times, a near impossiblitity. Communication difficulties were likely left out. What I based my assumptions on was the line of Miguel's in Latin. Were it simply a phrase not in Latin, and just whatever language that was being spoken in, it should have been translated to English. But it was not. Thus Latin does exist. And thus so does all the rest of history, from Zoser and Gilgamesh to Marcus Aurelius and Alaric.
Consider it as a broadening of the CT world. As complex as it is, it can never really compare to the real world. As I have said, this was one of Tolkien's best moves when he wrote his stories, to parallell them, and place it in the real world to some degree. It lends history and realism, and thus greater feeling, than could be accomplished through simple fantasy.
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And which branch of Catholicism did the kingdoms that Guardia was based on fall under? If I recal my history, that would be Roman Catholicism.
Are you suggesting that the Chrono series does in fact take place in our world, that it is a divergent history from the history that our world in fact has experienced?
I'm not buying it. Sorry, the histories are contradictory. It's a different world, with a different history, and different religions.
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Bishops aren't specifically Catholic. Mormon wards have bishops, too.
I really doubt Catholicism exists in the Chronoverse.
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Look, don't confuse Catholisism with Roman catholisism. The time period of about 600AD had only one schizm in the church, and that was between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox. The Western Church was still called the Catholic church. What I'm saying with Bishops and all is, is that it is almost exclusively a Christian institution, or at least was so at such an early time. The evidence I have for this parallellism is just as solid as any of the other scientific ones that have been thought of and taken true on this site. If you wish to speak of "intent" and what "it was based on", then 95% of what ZeaLitY has thought up would be wrong, because even the original designers didn't think that far. But he has made logical inferences based on what is shown, and his theories are considered acceptable and true, as there is nothing in either game to disprove them. Even so, this historical theory of mine, though it might be considered far fetched by you, has no basis to be rejected. Just because no mention is made of Christ does not mean that in that He does not exist in the Chrono universe (and, again, if you wish to bring up intent of the designers, being Eastern and such, then many of the things that have been so painstakingly been charted out would need to be dismissed, for they were not intended originally, either.). Even so, I would beg you to dismiss my theories based on evidence in the game (in which case I will revise my theories; not for my story, though, for that is simply literary style to further the story, but in regards to this thread, I will revise it.), rather than just opinion, for in that matter the only thing that you have going for you is that it likely was not the designer intent (which has often been overlooked, anyway). As any true theory, it must at needs change if contradictory matter is found. Yet I have found little of that, save in some of the areas that CT and CC themselves are at odds on.
In the end, to your question, I would say, yes, the Chrono universe is somewhat of an alternate split future, save perhaps with the exception of Lavos. That is an interesting quirk, which is likely the splitting trigger; however, as his arrival is very early on, the true split then does occur at about in prehistoric times. However, based on the hibernation of Lavos for such lengths of time, no great change occurs for a great period of time, or at least none readily noticeable. Some will maintain that Zeal and the Dreamstone are products of Lavos, but that to that I have two replies: firstly, I still maintain for lack of ironclad evidence to the contrary that the Dreamstone is a thing of this world. The second is that Zeal is so ancient that its existance hardly affects the ancient world as we know it; even as we hear of Atlantis as but a myth, and it hardly affects us, so too is it with Zeal (which is perhaps that dimensional equivalent of the Atlantean civilization). What I'm basically saying is that, even as Tolkien's Middle Earth can be taken as a prehistory to this world (circa. 5000BC), as he intended, so too can Zeal be looked at in such a light, filling in the shadows of history, though having no absolute bearing on later generation, save in unnoticable echoes of history. Now, not to say that at all points the development of the real world and the Chrono world coincide (as I have said, the true split is likely a prehistoric time), but the similarities even in the differences come together to forge a similar "middle age" as it were. We have Atlantis (the Theran civilization), they have Zeal; in the end, both amount to the same end. They have a flood due to the fall of Zeal, we have a flood attributed, in the Christian tradition (and many others) to the wrath of God. Both events wipe clean civilization. Both bring about a dark age. Thus the state of our world and the Chrono world circa 9000BC is not that different, and I can fully see those who remain in the last villages banding together to build a walled city such as Jericho. And from then...an equivalent, or nearly equivalent, history. People will invariably band together into cities, and then into empires. Now, I understand that in our world, as there never was a Zeal, the birth of different people would result, effictively changing the names of the kings of empires, and perhaps dictating the empires themselves.*(see below)Again, there is no absolute way of refuting that the history of the Chrono universe is all that different than our own. What I say is that there is insufficient factors to greatly change the course of history in a general sense; it only manifests itself in certain eras. The first is at the time of Zeal. The second, with the rise of the Mystics at about 500AD.
Thus I still maintain my thoery, and beg you to, in true scientific fashion, disprove it with data (which, in all liklihood, is very possible; I'm not maintaining that mine is without flaw correct. Only that, at this moment, I have seen insufficient data to revise my thoery of this).
*note at this point: this is perhaps my only faltering point in the theory. The existance of Zeal and its subsequent fall scatters the seeds of history in a somewhat different manner than in our timeline. My theory is dependent on the non-interference of the survivors of Zeal with the common timeline, which may be somewhat difficult to reconcile. Yet here is my proof that, unlikely as it is, history continued in the same way: Miguel's Latin. It makes the appearance of Rome a neccessity, and the pre-existing absorbtion of Latin and Etruscan tribes by, perhaps, the survivors of Troy (though this last part may simply be fiction created by Virgil). Whatever way it might fall, Rome, in the Chrono Universe, was significant enough to spread influence far to the West, and into common culture. If such a late event is there, then it makes the earlier kingdoms important as well. Thus, unlikely as it may seem, this appears to be the solution: history became unravelled in prehistoric times, but the effects were not apparent. For a time they could be seen in the rise of Zeal, but it came and went without lasting effect, for Rome rises. Thus, scientfically through historical hypothesis, I would maintain that there is a great accordance between the two timelines, Chrono and ours, and that the first standing change is not until circa 400AD.
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When you mention these dates, do you mean them as being the same for both worlds? There were no refrigerators or gas stoves 1000 years ago. There were no humans 65 million years ago, and there were no great civilizations 12 thousand years ago. The apocalypse did not occur in 1999, nor were the cities of the world domed. There has not been a single language, shared by both man and dinosaur, that has remained mostly unchanged in that time span. Even if our worlds began the same, the split long before the earliest time periods seen in the game.
Zeal is easily symbolic of Atlantis. I've also heard suggestions that Zeal is a symbol for Babylon, although I hardly would suggest that any islands floated over Iraq at any point in history. Also, understanding that you lack ironclad evidence, what suggests to you that Dreamstone may be a thing of this world?
The reason I see the absence of any mention of Christ as being evidence of his absence is that Christianity has had a huge impact on our world. Most places in the Western world (and many places that aren't) you can't walk 100 feet without feeling the influence of Christianity. Ask anyone, regardless of their religion and beliefs, who Jesus was. You'll get the same answer from 99% of them. In fact, some won't even wait for you to ask, they'll come up and ask you. Certainly nuns and others who devote their lives to those teachings think in those terms, and would respond to many questions using Christian thinking (by which I mean thinking derived from Christian teachings) I would expect that kind of response from devotees of any faith in any world. Yet there is not one single mention of any messianic figure, of any empire between Zeal and Guardia, and certainly no crucifixtion of the one by the other. The only mentions of deities are Lavos (who may as well be a god), the Entity (which for all intents and purposes is a god) and "God" specifically, which very well have meant the Entity. You'd think someone would have mentioned Jesus. That is why I find the absence evidence for nonexistence.
As for Miguel's Latin, remember that language did not devlop in the same way in the Chrono world as it did in hours. Neither English nor Japanese was spoken by the dinosaurs. Words that we would find to be in a foreign language needn't be in the Chrono world, as the languages clearly did not devlop in the same way.
A thought...the Epoch (and gates) are said to move those that travel through them through time, but not space; they arrive at the same where, a different when. The kindom of Guardia is founded in the year Zero. At this time, there would have been no Christianity, even if there was a Christ, so how could it be a Christian kingdom? If it was not founded as such, surely the conversion of an entire kingdom would have been a historic event, mention at least once; no doubt there would be celebrations honoring the conversion.
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Twice now have my posts been cut off before I could submit. I am in no mood to rewrite a third time. I will only say this: the dreamstone is with Ayla pre-Lavos, thus is with surity of this world. The explanation for the Christianity of Guardia may be found in the Work in Progress under my thread "Feigned history" as the third article. Sufficed to say I have worked out a way that places the founding of a Christian Guardia at 40AD during the reign of the emperor Caligula, and yet does not conflict with any CT facts so far as I can tell. I have based my theory on certain findings, and it is no less valid than any of the other numerous theories that have sprung up before on this site. There is nothing to truly disprove it, as the Latin must be Latin when Miguel speaks it. I understand that the language of that world is perhaps not English (even as Tolkien's "common tongue" is not, and "Hobbit" is just an author's word for "Kuduk"); yet if that were not Latin, it too would be translated, or else left in original form as were the words of Magus' spell in his fortress. Also it is unadvisable to refute something based on insufficient supporting evidence: ie. you cannot claim Guardia is not Christian because they do not mention Christ. That is not a scientific method. If you were to speak to me on the street, I would not mention Christianity in all liklihood, but I would be no less a Christian. I have written these same things for a third time now (though in briefer form); I am dead tired of writing them.
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Guardian_of_Ages:
NO.
Now that I've had my fun impersonating the judges at OCR (don't take offense, GoA, I just felt like messing around a little)....
In all seriousness, you need to think outside the box.
Of course all those things like B.C. and A.D., Chronopolis, European-like kingdoms (i.e. Guardia), Angelus Errare, all these things can be around with names and apparent visual significance and whatever else without those cultures existing. And of course B.C. and A.D. can mean something entirely different, and Angelus Errare might be, hell, who knows, Zealian. These things are used so that the player can be familiar with objects, terms, people or institutions in the game.
Take Final Fantasy, for example. Would you also have us believe that the Gilgamesh we fight repeatedly in Final Fantasy V is THE Mesopotamian hero? Or that the Excalibur found in damn near every Final Fantasy, in some form or another, is literally King Arthur's legendary sword, the scimitar lobbed at him by some watery tart (sorry, really couldn't resist the Monty Python reference there)? Or that Shiva, is the Hindu god of destruction rather than the mistress of ice? Or that Odin is the father of Thor, who is rarely even referenced in the series? Or that the sword Ragnarok (or the space/air ship in FFVIII) is the Norse war at the end of the world? I think I'll stop now, although there are many, many more examples.
Of course not. These things are put in the games by the developers to evoke a sense of familiarity within the player.
Yes, I agree that Chrono Trigger is supposed to be much more like our own world than any Final Fantasy (one might call FFVII an exception to this; I wouldn't, but some would). But it is definitely not the same world as our own. Therefore, all these things that are obvious references to cultures in our world are merely that: References. They are, most likely, not intended to be direct evidence of the existence of those cultures in the Chrono universe.
There is not enough specific evidence to conclude that the Chrono universe is a direct parallel to our own, as if it was a variant where Lavos landed in our world. You are making an extreme leap in logic, a lot of speculation.
You want some specific refutation? A Masamune is a type of katana. Yet the Chrono series's Masamune is very clearly a broadsword. That makes no sense by your logic (hell, I think it makes no sense anyway, and yet there it is all the same). And Melchior, Gaspar and Balthasar? They're only named that in the English version of the game.
I wasn't the main story writer for Xenogears, so I can't say much on it, but as for Chrono Trigger, I didn't especially think of the Bible when I was writing the story. "Three wisemen who carry the same names as the Biblical wisemen...?" Oh, I see... So, that's how they were named in the English version? In the original Japanese version, the ancient sages were named GASSHU, HASSHU, and BOSSHU. Regarding the other things you pointed out, I didn't consciously have anything in mind, biblical or otherwise, when I wrote the story.
Hey, look at that, one of the primary creators of our favorite video game universe (or at least one of them) directly refutes an intention of the existence of Christianity. I know you said we shouldn't bring in intent, but I don't care. And yes, I know that he didn't say he wrote the scenario with the intention of Christianity NOT existing, but there just isn't enough evidence to support the existence of Christ in Crono's world as a fact.
Also it is unadvisable to refute something based on insufficient supporting evidence: ie. you cannot claim Guardia is not Christian because they do not mention Christ. That is not a scientific method.
Nor is it a scientific method to insist a theory is a fact with as little evidence as is present. The only evidence we have supporting the existence of Christianity in the Chrono universe is B.C./A.D., the Cathedrals and nuns and such, the parallels to our own history that I DO agree are there (albeit not in as literal a sense as you suggest), and the basing of Guardia on European nations. No explicit proof.
Your idea is a theory with minimal support at best. You at least MUST respect that others' theories might be right. If you can't do that, you're just being as stubborn and simple-minded as people on many, many other forums out there. And I have reason to believe, based on many of your previous posts, that you're smarter than that, and at least occasionally a little more open-minded.
If it is not your intention to posit your theory as the only viable theory, I apologize, for that is how it appears to me. Perhaps you should try supporting it a little less vehemently, maybe write your posts in a manner that show that you're a little more open to others' ideas.
All that said, this thread is a goddamned gold mine for the section of the planned real world article that I'll be writing, the historical parallels to our own world. Good job on giving me lots of support for that article, even if it is rather inadvertant.
Anyway, my intention with this post is not to alienate anyone, but rather only to show that we have reasons for our opinions (by "we" and "our" I mean those who, like me, agree with what Radical_Dreamer has said).
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I'm curious -
BC and AD are, as it was pointed out, terms created and used by Western Judeo-Christian culture.
Japan, and for that matter Asia, did not emerge under such a system. What is the traditional method of dating in these cultures, and what was used in the Japanese version of Chrono Trigger?
BC and AD could have easily been subistuted in for some Japanese equivalent, right? (Unless the Japanese now use BC/AD and used this in the game.)
You don't need Christ to use those terms. They could have used "Before Common Era" or whatever the more recent scientific idea of dating uses. As stated already, BC and AD are terms everyone is familiar with and thus make easy ones to adapt for the game's purposes.
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BC and AD are specifically Christian terms, the Christian calendar is simply the most used. There is a seperate Jewish calendar that is Lunar based. The current year according to that calendar is around 576X (It's been a while since I've checked the exact date)
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To Ybrik:
My crappy computer again messed up my post. In essence, what I had said in lengthy words was this. Firstly, contrary to the foolish way in which I presented it, it seems, I hardly think mine to be the only theory, nor even the best (the best would be that which the designers would favor, and certainly is not mine). I merely thought myself to be in a state of defence regarding it, so was attempting to show that it has no true flaws as far as the facts are concerned. Also, I rehashed a lot of what I have said, further proving (I assure you) the validity of the Latin factor (minor though this might truly be). I replied to each of your points, saying that I am indeed thinking far outside the box, for my theory is different than 99% of ideas; mine truly is outside the box. Also I brought up that even as you say the names give familiarity, so too does the real world history, for in such detail the Chrono universe is decidedly lacking. I felt that a real history would add a familiar, and therefore more touching, element to the Chrono universe. It is a literary choice. But more on that some other time, maybe.
Lastly I had taken issue with my using of a shaky theory, pointing out that the evolution theory taken as near fact nowadays (in opposition to the scientific creed that denies true fact), is very shaky itself (on a scientific, certainly not religious, ground). I am loath to repeat it all, especially as it is somewhat of a tangent to this discussion. But I assure you there is sufficient evidence to counter it, and yet it is still heartily taken as theory. Thus my own theory, though it may seem shaky, is not truly unscientific, or at least not if you consider evolution to be scientific (I have no desire to start an argument based on this; I assure you it is on scientific grounds that I say this. Please take it on this generic basis, for I have little will right now to engage in a debate regarding the validity of evolution. It is foreign to this discussion anyway.)
Finally, I must say that I do not have any desire to continue this further. I am stubborn in my own theory only so far as it affects my writing, and it was from that that this was initially sprung. Once again, I maintain that it is a viable theory, though I am sure that it is undoubtedly not the best or most accurate as far as the scientific scope of these discussions go. Thus, I bow out now, having said my words and opinions to a full extent.
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While your theory is very interesting, and I'd love to read a work of fan fiction based on it, to me that's all it is. I understand you come at the games from a different perspective (Fantasy vs. Sci-Fi) and you are clearly influenced by your love of Tolkein (and there is no fault in that) but Chrono Trigger is clearly not a work of Tolkein. I have already made clear what I see as flaws in your theory, but I'd like to reiterate that I'd like to read a more in depth look at it in the fan fiction section (This may be what the Feigned History is, I haven't had time to really look at it as I've been very busy lately).
Good luck.
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Yes, sorry for my ill-explained rantings. It's a sub-theory, and that's all. Oh, and forget about my posting in the Work in Progress; that Feigned History topic is really not very good on its own, and only makes sense in comparison with the rest of my writing. In fact, my final note is this, and it pretty much sums up how my story relates to the Chrono universe:
"This is my own account of Serge in the year that followed the eventful days of the fall of FATE and the destruction of the Dragon Gods. Of what I have written, it may be said that little truly happened in the future that is most often spoken of. Even so, in some thread of time, some future in which things occurred otherwise, this may indeed hold true. Let it serve as an account of events that may have been, or have been, through other choices."
Thus I excuse any continuity flaws with this. Some day I will finish it and will post it in a myriad of places for people to consider (and I think that on this site it will receive the most interesting opinions). But such a time is yet months off. But in regards to how my style affects my rendering of the Chrono universe, in this respect I would consider my liking of Tolkien's works a flaw, for it make me unable to write something in the true style of CT, and makes me angry at myself for ever attempting such a fanfiction in the first place. I should have attempted something more truly mideaval.). So may my "theory" be then be discounted only as misguided ramblings; my apologies.
I, for one, will be interested in seeing what will come of this entire topic. Ie. what the final Compendium theory (and thus, effectively, the most accurate theory) regarding this particular subject as it relates to the Chrono universe will be.
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First off: Let it be known that the Compendium's purpose is to find as close to absolute truth as possible, but it is not necessarily for the sake of merely "knowing" the truth. Rather, it is something much more akin to what your theory serves for you, GoA: Many of us--myself and Zeality included--are doing this so that we might write fanfics that are as close to the true spirit of the Chrono games (and can therefore be read as complements to the games); finding theories that the majority of Chrono fans, or at least Compendium users, can agree upon helps us toward this. So in other words, we won't be promoting your theory because it's far from what we would want to use, not because we think it's just absolutely wrong. You're right, we can't prove it wrong, but you can't prove it right either.
That said, I would very much like to see you expand upon it in a fanfic. It might even be one that I read, as it sounds interesting. You see, "rewritings" of the game, or telling it with a somewhat different or highly interpreted--the latter of which yours would be--plot aren't usually up my alley; I prefer to read fics which take place after the game and try to tell a new story in the feel of the original, or stories which either fill in holes--like what happened to Guardia, what happened to Lucca after she was kidnapped, etc.--or expand upon individual scenarios, maybe adding a little--like the FFVI fanfic I've been wanting to write for a long, long time expanding on the whole Crescent Island scenario in the World of Balance--to be among my favorite types of fanfics. Sometimes I also like crossovers or fics that retell stories from a different perspective than the game follows (like my two fics that are posted--in their beginning stages--at http://www.icybrian.com/fanfic/ybrikmetaknight ), but only if they're done well. In other words, I'm not sure I would read your fic just based on my personal taste in fanfics (although I might, because it intrigues me), but I certainly think many others would like to read it. Hell, it's been a long time since I've really read any fanfics; I'm somewhat ashamed of myself in that regard. *hangs head in shame*
With regards to my statement that you need to think outside the box, I believe you interpreted it slightly differently than I meant. I meant that you've been taking things very literally, specifically that the presence of A.D./B.C., a European-styled kingdom, and religious institutions or symbols like churches and nuns to mean that Christianity literally exists. And so on and so forth with some of the other things, like Latin, Greek, etc., which is why I used Final Fantasy games to make a point, and why I brought the Masamune into discussion (it still blows my mind that CT/CC's Masamune is clearly a broadsword whereas the Masamunes in other games, along with the real-life namesakes, are katanas). I meant that your theory took a lot of things very, very literally (it's now obvious to me that that's on purpose), and that's what I meant when I said you need to think more outside the box. A little miscommunication on my part there.
You should type out longer posts in notepad, or at least copy and paste them into notepad before you submit. Helps save yourself from frustratingly having to retype them.
And I would like to debate the scientific validity of evolution in another thread, perhaps in general discussion, if you wish; I'll let you make the first comments and start the thread. I would just personally like to see your thoughts on the matter.
Finally, I think your theory is viable (if for no reason other than that we cannot truly, absolutely disprove it), although farfetched.
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Many of us--myself and Zeality included--are doing this so that we might write fanfics that are as close to the true spirit of the Chrono games (and can therefore be read as complements to the games)
Well, then you're doing a good job for sure. I skimmed over ZeaLitY's Gaspar part II story, and I must say that, all told, it was easily one of the best fanfics I have ever seen.
That said, I would very much like to see you expand upon it in a fanfic. It might even be one that I read, as it sounds interesting. You see, "rewritings" of the game, or telling it with a somewhat different or highly interpreted--the latter of which yours would be--plot aren't usually up my alley; I prefer to read fics which take place after the game and try to tell a new story in the feel of the original, or stories which either fill in holes--like what happened to Guardia, what happened to Lucca after she was kidnapped, etc.
Okay, misinterpretations seem to run rampant around me. I'm sorry if I mistakenly left the impression that my fanfic was a rewriting of the Chrono history; what I actually meant is that such history serves as a background to the story to which the characters, such as Schala, refer. Once or twice there are chapter notes that consist of such historical renderings, only to give the story a somewhat historical feel, if that is possible. However, the main part of my story is precisely one that take place after the ending of Chrono Cross. About...6 months or so after the ending. The main plot of the story, going to the most general possible, is actually the efforts of Guardia, and Crono in particular, to throw off the oppression of Porre; to that end, because his efforts are proving fruitless over the 15 or so years that he has been waging a guerrila war, he enlists the aid of other heroes. Specifically Janus and Schala, but the latter admonishes him to sail west to El Nido and seek out yet another, this being Serge. Thus it is a story that continues where Cross left off. The difference in tone from the games is such that Crono speaks in a more formal tongue, and so do Janus and Schala; Serge does not, and that is where I falter, so his speaking lines are few. More noticeable is the style of the larger scale battles against Porre, that are done in a more omnicient grandeous style. (for example, during the battle at the Fields of Truce: "Then Janus flung down his shield, and drew his sickle. And men fled from the twofold fear of his sickle and scythe, which he wielded one in each hand. A grim image of death incarnate, but perhaps even more terrifying for he was no myth to freeze the heart on dark nights, but a manifest terror that walked abroad in the daylight; a sorcerer prince of old the likes of which the world had long since forgotten, he came with all the might of the ancient world out of times past. And men ran from his onslaught rather than face him, crying that the King of Death had been set loose upon them, or that the power of Zeal was reborn. Few there were that would openly essay to match arms with him, and those that did were for the most part worthy magicians in their own right. But what power of latter days can compare to that which was Zeal the Magnificent? That might lived now only its two children, Janus and Schala."...that's pretty typical of the style of my battles.) Anyway, my real flaw is that I can't quite capture the CT feel; I intended to do so at the beginning, but could never quite. Thus, feeling that it would be even worse to have a bad attempt at it, I write in the way most natural to me. But in the end, I can assure you, near to all of the story is not historical, but rather meant as a sequel. The history is meant to provide a colorful backdrop, and as such is part of the setting rather than plot. I cling to CT as much as I can, but will sacrifice accuracy in a heartbeat to further the story from a literary perspective; this includes somewhat loose interpretation of the facts. For example one of my earliest ideas like that was to make Zeal seem far more magnificent than it is shown in the game; I describe it as a land with an army one hundred thousand strong, arrayed in gilded armor and appearing as legions of angels, with eyes burning as stars. In some ways the "eyes as stars" idea is borrowed from the Tolkien's descriptions of the Numenoreans, who seem to have many commanalities with Zeal. Thus the Tolkienish influence in my writing becomes apparent. In essence I am trying to lend a very legendary feeling aspect to as many of the things as possible, even as they would have been done in old myths and legends; I know of no other way of doing this than incorporating such a style. I'm not sure if that makes sense or if you understand what I mean; I have trouble putting my motivations and feelings on the matter into words. But sufficed to say, it is merely born from a desire to lend a certain northern saga or legend feel to certain matters which are not normally treated so; because, of course, the west and the east have a different view on what makes legend, myth, and heroes. I am attempting to reconcile my deepest understandings of those matters with the wonderful story contained in the Chrono games.
And I would like to debate the scientific validity of evolution in another thread, perhaps in general discussion, if you wish; I'll let you make the first comments and start the thread. I would just personally like to see your thoughts on the matter.
When I get around to it (and feeling like making a long post) I'll do that.
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GoA
All of your posts are long posts.
Well at least in relation to this one and most others.
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If you are knowledgable in the Hindu religion, please post on Crono's two blades, the Shiva Edge and Kali Blade.
Shiva and Kali are forms of God that represent Destruction. That is to say, the Destruction of Ignorance. Hindus hold that this world is created, preserved, destroyed, and reborn in cycle.
Hinuds hold that this world is an illusion, and that the purpose of "living" in this "world" is to refine oneself to be reunited with God. If a human is unable to refine themself at the end of a life, they liveanother life...humans live a number of lives, being reincarnated over and over again, until they have refined themselves to the point that they can reunite with God.
Ignorance is the Ignorance that this "world" is "real." Shiva and Kali, who is actually a small part of Shiva, shatter the delusion that this world is real, and destroy this "world" in cycle.
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Shiva and Kali are forms of God that represent Destruction. That is to say, the Destruction of Ignorance. Hindus hold that this world is created, preserved, destroyed, and reborn in cycle.
Hinuds hold that this world is an illusion, and that the purpose of "living" in this "world" is to refine oneself to be reunited with God. If a human is unable to refine themself at the end of a life, they liveanother life...humans live a number of lives, being reincarnated over and over again, until they have refined themselves to the point that they can reunite with God.
Ignorance is the Ignorance that this "world" is "real." Shiva and Kali, who is actually a small part of Shiva, shatter the delusion that this world is real, and destroy this "world" in cycle.
I was under the impression that Hinduism was polythesitic, and Shiva and Kali are seperate entities in that pantheon. Certainly I don't know much of anything regarding that religion, but I had thought that the idea of escaping from the cycle of life was Buddhist, not Hindu (though perhaps it is both; as I've said, I hardly know anything about eastern religions). I thought that Brahman was reality and truth, and sat behind the creation of the whole universe. Then again, all I know of Hinduism I read in a book of mythology (which for the most part has struck me as quite accurate, at least in the segments regarding Norse and Greek, which I know far better). Now, I cannot remember exactly, but I do think that Shiva and Kali are seperate beings. Damn, I'll look in the book. Norse I can do from memory for the most part, but this stuff escapes me. This isn't current Hindu, though, I think it's the old myth and Vedic age stuff, unless I'm mistaken. Let's see... this stuff is hard to sort out. Much more complicated than Norse. From what I can tell, Kali is a grave haunting avatar of Devi (and apparently Devi means Godess, and is the feminine of Deva...interesting. I didn't know that...). Devi is also known as Sati, Parvati, Lakshmi, Uma, and Durga, in different incarnations. According to this book, Parvati (and thus I would assume Kali to some extent) is the wife of Shiva. But I'm somewhat confused in this as well, because it also says that Rama, and incarnation of Vishnu, was married to Lakshimi, who is said to be Vishnu's heavenly wife (which seems to contradict that Parvati, being Shiva's wife, is the same being). I assume that these are varied myths from different ages and believed both at different times and by different sects that held certain gods as higher than others. I do know that in some sects Shiva is held as supreme over both Vishnu and Brahma, though others might place Brahma higher.... this stuff is beyond me. There are far too many names and avatars and incarnations for me to be able to sort it out. In addition, each god seems to have so many different personalities that I'm finding it near impossible to figure out who is who, and what they do.
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I have heard Hinduism refered to as "polytheisim on steroids" and "essentially monotheistic." Since the first came from a loud mouth jack-ass who knew little of anything, I'll elaborate on the second.
All of the gods of Hinduism are just "avatars" of the one main god (Brahma, I believe) and he uses those different forms at different times. Although the teacher who gave that explanation wasn't the most reliable either, so take that with a grain of salt.
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Well, I think in the myths that I read (again, I think these are myths, thus very old beliefs that might not be current anymore), Brahman (seperate from Brahma in some way, though I'm not sure what) represents reality, from which all else comes, the gods included (thus not being gods in the western Christian sense of omnipotent, but the gods of polythesim which have power over certain aspects of the world). Thus in that way I suppose it could be monotheistic, with Brahman at the top. I think from Brahman which is reality comes Brahma, though from what I glanced at today there might be certain divisions in the religion, which attribute Brahman to the creative power of Vishnu, and thus placing Vishnu as the all-powerful god (in a similar way the Egyptians at Thebes placed Amun above and beyond all gods, and the source of all reality, even of the gods Ra and such. This was a regional belief.). Anyway, I do suppose that some might then consider Hinduism in some form monotheistic, in the same way that in Christianity God is seen as the source of everything, and yet has angels that he has created that are above humans (a side note: in Tolkien's works these angels, the Ainur, are very prevalent. Gandalf, Sauruman, Sauron, even the Balrog, are all in this class of beings. The mightiest, which are the Lords of the West, are called the Valar, but on occasion Tolkien calls them the gods. Now through this all Tolkien's world is fully monotheistic, with the creator Eru (or Illuvatar in Sindarin Elvish) being the source of all, and yet his angels are on occasion referred to as gods. And they, too, have specific lordship over certain parts of the world, even as polytheistic gods tend to have.) An interesting note, also. It seems to be common sense that religion began shamanistic and polytheistic and eventually evolved in places into monotheism. But I have heard it said that that might actually be false, and that in every religion there is some hint of an absolute creator, hearkening back to an older view, that became touched with polythesim. The reason for this, I have heard, is that people are naturally superstitious, and tend to believe polytheistic things, seeing spirits in emotion and such. Thus to keep order and peace in the land, the rulers and priests incorporated such worship into the older monotheism.
...
Though I suppose that this doesn't answer the question of Kali and Shiva, though...
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The reason for this, I have heard, is that people are naturally superstitious, and tend to believe polytheistic things, seeing spirits in emotion and such. Thus to keep order and peace in the land, the rulers and priests incorporated such worship into the older monotheism.
It works both ways. Christianity, a new religion at the time, incorperated the winter solstice festival from the older Roman religion (Sol...something, I don't exactly remember the other word) in order to create Christmas.
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Well, not that Christianity was particularily new. It could easily be considered a branch of Judaism. But that's a good point you bring up, and exactly what I mean. As Christianity moved into the northern countries, in an effort to peacefully convert the northern tribes (which it did, for the most part), it melded certain aspects into its own. Christmas, at least the traditional day of the 24th, was certainly a pagan holiday. But to appease the people that it was converting, the converters I suppose decided to keep the special day, and change the reason for the celebration. This sort of cross religion meld still occured later, with God being referred to in the Church as Jove.
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Just noting that this has been finalized in the form of the Real Worlds Influence article, so I'm de-stickizing it. Say that outloud.
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i believe that much of the chrono trigger history is muslim. the most obvious is medina. period. than comes lavos, which could represent the antichrist in islamic religion which is different to the christian belief (i am going to make a thread of this later) but wat is strange is that if the mystics are muslims, than why are they still such a low level in 1000 ad, when in real life they controlled most of the world by 1000? than lost it after being vain... also, trying to be far from racist is that in our belief the jewish people back in the old days a long time ago were very proud and "mocked" god, which turned to their demise. so yea, hopefully no one was offended. im a noob here so please tolerate me
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That's in the Christian Bible, too; the Jewish people would always go "hay d00d gawd isnt looking lets worship false gods n shite lolz!"
And then they got pwn3d in their FACE.
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And Y'know, Lavos is most probably a metaphor for Shiva than the Islamic Antichrist. I'll just fall back on that article with all the christian metaphors for Chrono Trigger, thank ya!
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That's in the Christian Bible, too; the Jewish people would always go "hay d00d gawd isnt looking lets worship false gods n shite lolz!"
And then they got pwn3d in their FACE.
And yet, we're the oldest living culture on the Earth, and the cultures of our foes are all dead or dying. Funny how that works out.
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That's in the Christian Bible, too; the Jewish people would always go "hay d00d gawd isnt looking lets worship false gods n shite lolz!"
And then they got pwn3d in their FACE.
And yet, we're the oldest living culture on the Earth, and the cultures of our foes are all dead or dying. Funny how that works out.
Quite.
Lavos isn't really a metaphor for anything; he isn't a destroyer, but a builder. People just resent being manipulated.
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He's a metaphor for Shiva :O and he's based on a Lovecraftian Elder God, I can guarantee.
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He's a metaphor for Shiva :O and he's based on a Lovecraftian Elder God, I can guarantee.
No, I really don't think so; you should refrain from guarenteeing it, most especially when you contradict yourself. So, firstly he's a metaphor (make that rather allusion) to Shiva, the destroyer/creator in Hindu religion. But then in the next half of your sentence, you claim him to be connected to a fictional tale. The problem with the former is that Shiva is not, so far as I know, malefic (if I remember right, though I honestly know very little about Hindu religion) that rather belonging to Kali, who is I think an incarnation of Devi, or something to that effect. In no story I ever read does Shiva wish to orchestrate the destruction of the world for his own empowerment. If anything, that would be the demons, the mortal enemies of the Hindu gods. Now, the problem with the Lovecraft allusion is that, while there may be similarities in some regards (I cannot say too much directly, as I do not know those particular tales) there are other similarities with other stories as well. The acts and ways in which Lavos acts can be seen similar to Sauron, especially as he appears in the Akallabeth - whence came my theorizing on the idea of Lavos as a dark lord in the Tolkien tradition of the term. Now, that said, IS he an alllusion to Sauron? Is Lavos' destruction of Zeal analagous to that of the fall of Numenor? Though parallells can be drawn, in truth it is mere coincidence, a retelling of a common theme (which happens time and again when people tell myths; themes are repeated, even amongst those who have no contact with each other.) Likewise I think any Lovecraft inspiration is mere chance, and Lavos is rather a unique thing that happens to bear resemblance to these other beings of legend.
Hadriel wrote:
That's in the Christian Bible, too; the Jewish people would always go "hay d00d gawd isnt looking lets worship false gods n shite lolz!"
And then they got pwn3d in their FACE.
And yet, we're the oldest living culture on the Earth, and the cultures of our foes are all dead or dying. Funny how that works out.
Not only that, but the Israelites were incredibly less advanced than the people about them, whether those of Babylonia and Assyria, Egypt, or even the Caananites who were in near proximity. The sea-people descended Caananites, especially, were iron-age people of quite significant power in the region, the last echo of the turmoils of the end of the Mediterranean Dark Age. These are the people that fought at Troy, a very warlike race. But here came these people, nomads and scattered tribes, out of Egypt, and settled in amongst them, adopting the language of Caanan, but quite unlike the practices of the time, retaining their own God - for the most part, that is. Now, in the days of David and the rise of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, the Jews were very technologically backward - they did not even know how to use chariots properly, I have heard. Neither could they forge their own weapons of iron, going to the people of Gath and the like to have their plows made into swords. By all accounts, the Israelites, as a very weak power for the most part, should have faded into obscurity in the face of the rise of Assyria and Babylon. But they were invaded, conquered, and survived, in one of the strangest fates in history. Assyria fell, likewise Babylon; Rome came and went; and through it all, the Jews survived, in despite of history's merciless hand. Personally, I think it was their religious insularity that kept them united and unconquerable (showing the strength of religion and ideals over that of technology and weaponry) that effected this, but nonetheless, it is a fascinating thing that goes against most historic reason. I take it as a sign of the existance of God, and that He indeed has a grand plan, but maybe that's just me.