Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Polling => Topic started by: ZaichikArky on August 27, 2009, 05:10:33 pm
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I tried to look to see if this poll was done in the past, and I didn't come across it.
Personally, I liked how Woolsey handled Frog's speech. It made sense to me considering Frog was from the middle ages, however I think that Woolsey should have taken it a step further and made EVERYONE from the middle ages speak like that! Woolsey seems to really love having characters in the games he translates speak Olde English. He made Cyan do it in FF6.
What does everyone else think? DISCUSS.
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Actually, ZaichikArky , Frog is speaking Modern English. I made a post similar to this one in the Shakespeare versus Crono thread about this sort of thing.
I think Woosley did a great at getting Frog's speech down. I didn't mind that he was the only one speaking Shakespeare's English. I thought it gave him a sense of pinache separate from the other characters.
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^ Yeah, I did notice that conversation about that. But it doesn't make much sense to call what he's saying "Modern English" does it? How about we just call it "Shakespearean English" then?
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Very well. "Shakesperean English" it shall be called.
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While Woolsey lost some important info in the translation, a lot of his decisions were pure genious IMHO. I mean, "Sara"? "Schala" is totally, totally where it's at. She would have seemed so generic had Woolsey kept the name "Sara." Same with Jaki/Janus, and Tina/Terra in Final Fantasy VI.
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I like the "plainer" names, myself. It adds subtlety to otherwise incredibly flamboyant characters (same deal with why blonde Tina>green sprite Terra).
I didn't really dig Frog's speech...and wasn't it a butchered version of w/e English he was using? That's what I keep hearing from people anyway, but regardless it seemed weird that 1) he has it & no one else does, 2) an accent like that would just suddenly occur & 3) just as suddenly go away...He's unique enough without making people think he's at fault for CC's accent system. :lol:
Artist's original intentions & such as well.
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I liked both versions. However, I will admit the plainer variant of speech suffices enough to make me very happy.
Only because such ways of speech are often cliche' and overused in that perspective of era, in any sci-fi or fantasy tale.
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I always liked the Tina-Terra ambiguity. In my personal interpretation of that universe, Tina is the privileged but ordinary girl who grew up in the Empire without knowing her heritage or her power. Terra is what she truly is.
Heh. I didn't play the DS CT so I don't know what Frog's new speech is like. I didn't even know he had a speech, so I presume you're talking about the scene where he splits a mountain in half.
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His speech is much how mine is. Formal, yet refined enough to be considered ordinary.
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Oh! Hah. The topic creator meant "style of speech," as in the way he talks. Not a delivered address. My bad...
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Haven't played DS, so that's out. But I liked Frog's speech. In a way it reminded me of Yoda, though being small and green must of aided to that somehow. I always find it strange that Glenn dosen't follow the same patterns in the cutscenes.
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While Woolsey lost some important info in the translation, a lot of his decisions were pure genious IMHO. I mean, "Sara"? "Schala" is totally, totally where it's at. She would have seemed so generic had Woolsey kept the name "Sara." Same with Jaki/Janus, and Tina/Terra in Final Fantasy VI.
Agreed. I always appreciated what he did with that. Schala sounds a lot cooler than Sarah, as does Janus rather than Jacky. Though to the Japanese, those names would have been exotic.
Oh! Hah. The topic creator meant "style of speech," as in the way he talks. Not a delivered address. My bad...
LOL it's ok. Reminds me of that one thread where I thought the creator was asking about who Ramsus was as opposed to where the name "Ramsus" came from.
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I prefer the DS. In Frog's case, I think the simpler would be better(I've tried teaching some of these kids about this stuff, and sadly most kids don't understand squats worth of Shakesperian English. Anything Shakesperian period.). Plus it's supposed to be the more modern civilization with Guardia.
However when it comes to the people of Zeal like Schala and Janus, Woolsey all the way. They deserve a more exotic feel to them and Schala's about as exotic as you're gonna get.
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Woolsey is the effing king! Where else would you have gotten as colorful a descriptor as "Spoony Bard?"
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Never said better, Truthordeal. *laughs*
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Woolsey is the effing king! Where else would you have gotten as colorful a descriptor as "Spoony Bard?"
And there it is.
Frog's speech and lines like "Spoony Bard" gave those games their quirks. In an environment as serious as Chrono, you need someone who just says wacky things. Yoda fills this void in the Star Wars universe (brilliant comparison Shee) and look how beloved he is. Sure a serious and stern frog makes more sense for a hefty story, but a frog with his own quirks makes a game that much more enjoyable. Though we don't need a million quirky characters--you hear that Chrono Cross?!
I think it helps that I was five or six when I first played CT...
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"Spoony Bard"? Sounds more like the name of a tavern (for you role-playing geeks out there).
Bartender: Ahoy, there! Welcome to the Spoony Bard, where:
a) ye enter sober as a priest and leave with yer pants on your 'ead!
b) the air be ripe with ale and the floors be splattered with urine of the ages!
c) ye can indulge in the spoilin' of yer kidneys and liver!
d) the happy hour actually lasts an hour!
Take your pick; there's no wrong answer!
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Yeah, but the bad thing about that Star Wars analogy is that no one translated Yoda into speaking like that, that's just how he spoke originally. Frog is beloved for the creators making him who he is more than a quirky translator's choice of speech pattern.
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True, but does the fact that the speech pattern was "translated" that way make it any less appealing? It doesn't, for me at least. That argument comes down to whether you prefer a properly translated script, an adapted script, or a localized script, or etc, etc.
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A character's speech pattern is a choice made by the creator. So I think how its presented, as opposed to that, makes it less appealing. But anyway, I still wouldn't really like it...I never understood exactly what about Magus' Frog spell made him suddenly speak like a tard.
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"OH no! I'm turning into a frog!"
*transformation complete*
"What hast thou donest to mine body?!!!!"
I didn't wonder that at first but after the DS version then replaying the SNES version, yeah, it DOES make you think, what was in that spell? ...
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i always imagined that magus tossed that in there for comedy, given that his choice in a frog form is pretty hilarious in itself. he should make it totally laughable.
part of the nostalgia i get from playing chrono trigger is from reading 'lower thine guard and thou art letting the enemy in' (or whatever it is) line. i havent played the ds version because my ds is in the repair shop, but i kind of lost that feeling when i played the retranslation. so i prefer the snes version.
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I like the way Frog talks in the DS verison more.
In the Super NES verison it seemed kind of silly that Frog talked in Shakespearean English, since he talked in normal English before he was transformed.
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I can't remember where I saw this, it was either a fan game or a fan fic or a comic or something, but definitely non-canon explanation of Frog's Shakespearean speech that I really liked.
What if it's easier for him to speak in the archaic dialect? His mouth (among other things) was severely warped during the transformation, and pronunciation of the English (or any human) language requires a specific setup, so to speak. Perhaps the more formal pattern displayed more positive results as far as other people being able to understand him.
And if not, maybe that's what Woosley was thinking.
Anyhow, I remember when I was like 8-9 and thought it was cool then, kind of made him feel more like a Middle Ages knight. My friend Joe (with whom I played a bunch of RPGs "back in the day") and I would voice-act while playing, and doing Frog's voice was the most fun of all! If not for Woosley, things would have been very different. That's for sure.
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Woolsey is the effing king! Where else would you have gotten as colorful a descriptor as "Spoony Bard?"
Well actually, "Spoony Bard" is NOT a Ted Woolsey term. The guy was hired by Square Enix right after Final Fantasy IV (or II, as it was initially released). His first full translation project was Final Fantasy Legend III, which came out in 1993. Oh, and I like the DS script better, because not only did they make his Shakespearean English slightly less outward, but they matched up the rest of the NPCs from 600 A.D to speak with the same mannerism.
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Frog just doesn't feel like Frog without it IMHO. It may be just rabid fanboy nostalgia, because he's perhaps my favorite character in Chrono Trigger(tied with Robo), but I didn't liked the way he spoke in Crimson Echoes. I totally understand their choice of giving him the dashy hero attitude, as I understand this was the original intent by the creators(I could be wrong), but it just didn't felt like the Frog I loved.
Don't own a DS so haven't played CT DS, again... it may be the nostalgia talking, but I like Frog with the Old Speech far better.
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I greatly prefer Glenn's Shakespearean pattern of speech. It gives him a distinctive feature other than his amphibian appearance.
Personally, I felt Glenn's more conventional speech pattern in Crimson Echoes did the character a disservice. Since Crono had a speaking role in the game, having Glenn speak the same way made no sense.
I plan to address the question of speech in 600 G.D. (Guardian Date) in a fan-fic I've been working on. Most of the common people in Guardia, or at least in North Zenan, speak in a fashion similar to the tavern speech Genesis mentioned:
a) ye enter sober as a priest and leave with yer pants on your 'ead!
b) the air be ripe with ale and the floors be splattered with urine of the ages!
c) ye can indulge in the spoilin' of yer kidneys and liver!
d) the happy hour actually lasts an hour!
Wheras the nobility or high-born speak in Shakespearian English (or Old Guardanian, as I call it). Knights can come from high or low, but once they enter the King's service, they are expected to speak in the formal dialect. I suspect Woosley made everyone else from the middle ages speak normally out of fear that a Shakespearian populace would have turned off most gamers. He was probably right.
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I thought it was fairly well known that Frog's funky Woosleyized speech was, in fact, NOT truly Shakespearean...or that even if it is some form of it, he still flubs it up a lot...
Preferences aside, I still strongly believe that such choices should be the creator's decision above all.
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I liked his SNES-speak better, even with...some crazy grammatical errors. My take on the situation was, "Why doesn't every one else talk like this? If they're gonna go stereotypical Middle-Ages with Frog, they should do it with everyone else..."
Well, they did, to an extent, in DS, but they toned Frog down.
Part of this is that I'm a sucker for 'Shakespearean English;' it just sounds cool. The SNES is kind of botched, but it's good enough for me.
part of the nostalgia i get from playing chrono trigger is from reading 'lower thine guard and thou'rt letting the enemy in' (or whatever it is) line.
Agreed. First he saves Lucca, and then he's all chivalrous about it... <3
Frog: Here, I've saved you. Be more careful in the future. Oh by the way, I'm coming with you!
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Agreed. First he saves Lucca, and then he's all chivalrous about it... <3
Frog: Here, I've saved you. Be more careful in the future. Oh by the way, I'm coming with you!
Is that the actual line from the DS version? :shock: I've never played it, being a proud owner of the original cart and PS1 versions. What a lack of personality and depth! :x Why would they change it into something worse? I mean, that line is so bad it's going to give me nightmares tonight!
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It's not. She's probably just joking for the fact Frog lacks the accent in the DS version.
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OK. I just looked at the DS translation notes to confirm what I've heard by word-of-mouth in the community. Frog/Glenn really does lose something important in the new translation. It's not as cringe-worthy as I feared, it just feels so... blah. Noble Glenn deserves better.
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Agreed. First he saves Lucca, and then he's all chivalrous about it... <3
Frog: Here, I've saved you. Be more careful in the future. Oh by the way, I'm coming with you!
Is that the actual line from the DS version? :shock: I've never played it, being a proud owner of the original cart and PS1 versions. What a lack of personality and depth! :x Why would they change it into something worse? I mean, that line is so bad it's going to give me nightmares tonight!
LOOOOOOOOOOL no! That was just a quick synopsis of hte scene! SD Sorry for the confusion!
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Let's try and look at this from a different angle. I'm going to compare Frog to another belov'd character of RPG mythos:
This guy
(http://inserirelamemorycard.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/ff7-barret.jpg)
Now, as you can recall, that's another character who is fairly memorable for his speaking patterns. It was the intent of the original creators for him to speak in a certain dialect, but imagine for a moment that the translating team decided that his style of speech didn't fit the character and made him speak in quasi-Shakespearian English.
We all have our views on the characters and nostalgia tends to play a part in it, but I prefer the Snes/PS1 translation of the character. I think making him, a Frog creature, more noble and chivalrous than the rest of humanity defined the character. I think that having him curse almost takes him a notch down, and I was liked that whole "noble" aspect of his character. His theme is positively epic and heroic and noble and I think fits that speech pattern better than what the original translation was meant to be. Does the original writing deserve to have its integrity kept intact? Yes. But, I feel like the changes made the character MORE memorable and added to the character rather than detracted from him.
Frog is actually my favorite character in the whole Chrono saga, and that particular translation has something to do with it. He's a true hero. Yeah, the dialect is botched, but I think that's all part of the wacky SNES RPG charm, back when they'd have stuff a little bit corny that was still awesome. So for me, I feel like Frog, if not speaking "Shakespeare's English", should at speak of higher nobility than the rest of the cast.
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"part of the wacky SNES RPG charm" is just seeing things through rose-tinted nostalgia glasses (patent pending). As Chrono Cross taught us, actions speak louder than accents. Frog isn't noble because we perceive a certain dialect (or in this case not even that) to mean class & dignity, but because of who he is as a character, how he grows and what he actually does. Since it IS nostalgia you're talking about than the opposite more than likely would have been just as true (if not more-so) : i.e. if his speech was originally translated more accurately/literally and then in a subsequent re-release they suddenly gave him a fake "Shakespearean" accent, surely people would say WTF kinda messed up ess is that!? Just look at DQIV DS...>_>
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I like DQIV DS, for the record.
I do understand your argument, but I don't agree that "wacky SNES charm" is "just rose-tinted nostalgia glasses".
You act as though nostalgia is a tainted thing that gives you leprosy and ebola, and as though anything considered memorable is actually just nostalgic, but this is not the case.
I submit that Frog's dialect was changed by Woolsey to further distance his personality from Magus. Frog as a "bad-ass mofo" speaking normally doesn't really solidify him in the mind as a chivalrous knight. And everything he says could just be flipped and turned into something Magus says instead. The creative choice made Frog seem like he held himself to higher ethical standards than most of the world thought necessary.
In the X-Men movie, the first one, Gambit was almost included in the cast of characters, but he was left out because his personality was too close to Wolverine and his powers would look too similar to Cyclops. This would have resulted in the core characters being less memorable of their own accord.
The CT:DS script tackles this problem by making just about everyone speak the same, causing all the dialogue to feel washed out like a photo with too much flash. This is arguable, but it is my opinion.
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I have nothing but respect for DQIV DS. The original stands as the best 8-Bit RPG alongside FFIII & the original Mother...but those accents they put in were beyond annoying and I'm glad they got rid of them for the subsequent DQ DS remakes.
No, I don't think nostalgia as simply memory is bad, but it represents an idealized memory. I don't think things should be judged based on altered perception. Since Chrono Trigger IS an older game now, it's something that's bound to happen, but it can stand on its own w/o nostalgia even though, or perhaps because, it is based around a strong sense of nostalgia & cliché in RPGs already.
I didn't really get "badass mofo" from the CTDS translation of Frog (perhaps because I only played through once and didn't use Frog much)...But I'm really more pro-literal anyway, so I more liked seeing him as completely selfless in his flashback when he wouldn't fight back because he has a deep empathy for others even as a child...
As for that Gambit thing...I remember hearing that and thinking it was a crock decision made by producers who had only casually glanced at who Remy LeBeau was...Oh, he has a romantic interest? Can't have that if we want to focus on the Jean triangle (which to me was really only that interesting in Ultimate because he bagged her so quickly. lol)...and only rarely do artists render his throwing of cards to be anything close to an optic blast...and he can do more than just throw charged cards. But w/e, I understand the need to cut the X-Roster w/o lame excuses like that...
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...but those accents they put in were beyond annoying
:-) I thought it was quirky, kind of made me like the game more, but it REALLY made it more confusing.
No, I don't think nostalgia as simply memory is bad, but it represents an idealized memory. I don't think things should be judged based on altered perception. Since Chrono Trigger IS an older game now, it's something that's bound to happen, but it can stand on its own w/o nostalgia even though, or perhaps because, it is based around a strong sense of nostalgia & cliché in RPGs already.
Fair enough, given that the game is fifteen years old, nostalgia simply IS part of the equation. I just wanted to clarify the distinction between memorable characters and gimmicks that induce said nostalgia.
I didn't really get "badass mofo" from the CTDS translation of Frog
I didn't get "badass mofo" from the CTDS translation either. But that's more of what the Compendium translation and CE portray, which makes him as a character thematically more like Magus. The dynamic between the characters is interesting, because despite their very obvious differences, and the fact that they're rivals, they really have a lot in common, but that's besides the point.
What I got from the DS version was more watered down and... I don't know... polite? boring? I'm sure there's a better word.
As for that Gambit thing...I remember hearing that and thinking it was a crock decision made by producers who had only casually glanced at who Remy LeBeau was...
...and only rarely do artists render his throwing of cards to be anything close to an optic blast...and he can do more than just throw charged cards.
He was the only one I wanted to see (on film) anyway, and they made Cyclops such a bitch that they may as well have just cut him instead. I would have loved to see a little Gambit/Wolverine/Rogue semi-triangle going on like in the old cartoon series but the decision didn't destroy the movie. I did not like what they did to him in the Origins movie, but again, it wasn't so bad that I wouldn't watch it.