Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: killercactus on July 02, 2009, 12:33:04 pm
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Wow, it's been a while since I've been around here....
I had some time today and started delving back into Chrono Cross, and I came across a conundrum. In the original timeline (i.e., before Kid travels back to 1010 and the dimensions split), Serge is killed in 1010 by Lynx. Apparently, Lynx killed Serge because he was an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, and FATE could not access it as long as he was alive, right?
I'm not so sure.
On the same timeline, in 1015, Lynx and Harle track down Lucca and murder her. The supposed reasoning behind this (per the Condensed Plot Summary here at the Compendium) is because they believe she has information that can help release the lock on the Frozen Flame.
What???? I thought Serge's death already unlocked the Flame...? Isn't that why he had to be killed in the first place? This brings up a couple of questions.
1) If Serge was killed in order for FATE to reaccess the Flame, why did Lynx need Lucca at all? Furthermore, during the playout of Cross itself, why does Lynx go through the hassle of switching bodies with Serge to get to the Flame? Does FATE believe or know that it cannot kill him?
2) If Serge's death did NOT release the Arbiter lock on the Flame, how did FATE continue to operate in Another World? How did it instruct the guy in Arni not to become a fisherman? And, why was Serge killed in the first place?
My guess would be that, if Serge's death didn't unlock the Flame, than Lynx killed him because FATE knew he would somehow bring about the end of the world if it didn't (we know this to be true thanks to Home World and the Dead Sea existing the way they do). As soon as he touches the Flame, he's destined to bond with the Time Devourer and help destroy the world, so Lynx/FATE kills him, even though it knows that it won't be able to access the Flame anymore. That still doesn't explain stuff like the fisherman though, and brings back the "Belthasar is an a-hole theory because he puts the world in jeopardy to save Schala."
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Well, IMO even if Serge was killed the lock wouldn't be ulocked.
FATE might have known that already or not. Maybe he killed Serge just because he hated him. But it is more likely he didn't know the result.
FATE: Wut, it is still locked up?! Well, I gotta find another way....
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It wasn't actually Serge the one who kept the Flame locked. It was actually the Prometheus Circuit. It locked access to the Flame once Serge became the arbiter, and will only allow access to him. Which is why Linx went after Lucca, since she could unlocked it without needing Serge.
Once that failed, FATE decided to use Serge as a backup plan, leading to the whole body switch thing for access and all what happens in the game.
The elimination of the
Prometheus circuit's lock
on the Frozen Flame was
everyone's top priority!
Lynx and Harle abducted
Lucca, who alone could
release the Prometheus lock
that guarded the Flame...
But the whole attempt only
ended in failure.
Then, they just waited for
you to appear instead!
You see, FATE calculated that
you would one day cross
the dimensions and try to
make contact with the Flame.
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It wasn't actually Serge the one who kept the Flame locked. It was actually the Prometheus Circuit. It locked access to the Flame once Serge became the arbiter, and will only allow access to him. Which is why Linx went after Lucca, since she could unlocked it without needing Serge.
Once that failed, FATE decided to use Serge as a backup plan, leading to the whole body switch thing for access and all what happens in the game.
The elimination of the
Prometheus circuit's lock
on the Frozen Flame was
everyone's top priority!
Lynx and Harle abducted
Lucca, who alone could
release the Prometheus lock
that guarded the Flame...
But the whole attempt only
ended in failure.
Then, they just waited for
you to appear instead!
You see, FATE calculated that
you would one day cross
the dimensions and try to
make contact with the Flame.
Right, but I was wondering why FATE would kill Serge if it knew that killing him wouldn't unlock the Prometheus circuit.
I suppose I assumed that FATE would have to know how the Prometheus circuit worked. I mean, it knew that it had to pass a DNA scan of the Arbiter to dupe it... do we really just accept that it didn't know that killing Serge wouldn't give it access back, so it went to Plan B (and then to C)? If it's smart enough to calculate that Serge will cross the dimensions one day, it has to know that killing him won't unlock the circuit, right?
Furthermore, that means that in the original timeline (before Kid's interference), FATE never regained access to the Frozen Flame. So, after getting Lucca didn't work, did it just give up? I mean, the dimensions weren't split yet so it couuldn't calculate that Serge would cross them until 5 years later. I just can't imaging FATE thinking "Huh - killing Serge didn't work, and catching Lucca didn't work. Man, I wish I didn't kill Serge so that I could copy his DNA and get back into the Flame again. Now what do i do?"
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Remember that the Prometheus Circuit was programmed that in the case FATE could detect it, it would erase any sign of it's existence to kept it hidden. So, FATE didn't knew of it's functions for years.
Then, once Serge became the arbiter and access was locked, FATE at first thought that killing him would unlock the Flame and gain access again. Then, some time after 1010 AD and killing Serge, FATE was able to permanently be aware of the Prometheus Circuit and now knew what exactly did it had to do.
So, Linx went after Lucca as Plan A. Since the dimensions were split, and FATE was monitoring both, it learned that Serge survived in the other one, and so it became Plan B if Lucca didn't cooperated, knowing that Serge wouldn't cross to Another World until 1020 AD.
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Remember that the Prometheus Circuit was programmed that in the case FATE could detect it, it would erase any sign of it's existence to kept it hidden. So, FATE didn't knew of it's functions for years.
Then, once Serge became the arbiter and access was locked, FATE at first thought that killing him would unlock the Flame and gain access again. Then, some time after 1010 AD and killing Serge, FATE was able to permanently be aware of the Prometheus Circuit and now knew what exactly did it had to do.
So, Linx went after Lucca as Plan A. Since the dimensions were split, and FATE was monitoring both, it learned that Serge survived in the other one, and so it became Plan B if Lucca didn't cooperated, knowing that Serge wouldn't cross to Another World until 1020 AD.
OK - I remember the bold quote now, and that explains the killing of Serge and then the subsequent abduction of Lucca. However, if we're assuming a Y shaped dimensional split, the dimensions haven't split yet when FATE first abducts Lucca - it will be 5 years until Kid travels back in time to split them. How can FATE calculate that Serge will eventually cross the dimensions if the dimensions aren't yet split? Does that question make sense?
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I thought that Wazuki killed Serge because he went a bit insane, not because he was under orders from FATE to do so.
I don't know how to break
this to you, but...
Lynx was actually your
father, Wazuki!
Drawing closer to the Flame
caused him to become unstable,
and the image of you dying in
terror changed him completely!
Finally, after having his
psyche totally eroded,
he lost his soul and was
easily integrated by FATE...
FATE turned Wazuki into a
biological interface, modelling
him after your worst fear at
the time -- a panther.
Although Wazuki managed to
escape from Chronopolis with
you, he later completely
succumbed to FATE.
Humans are such fragile,
disjointed, imperfect things.
Love and hate...
Life and death...
Lynx might have even been trying to protect Serge by killing him.
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Right, but I was wondering why FATE would kill Serge if it knew that killing him wouldn't unlock the Prometheus circuit.
I suppose I assumed that FATE would have to know how the Prometheus circuit worked. I mean, it knew that it had to pass a DNA scan of the Arbiter to dupe it... do we really just accept that it didn't know that killing Serge wouldn't give it access back, so it went to Plan B (and then to C)? If it's smart enough to calculate that Serge will cross the dimensions one day, it has to know that killing him won't unlock the circuit, right?
Furthermore, that means that in the original timeline (before Kid's interference), FATE never regained access to the Frozen Flame. So, after getting Lucca didn't work, did it just give up? I mean, the dimensions weren't split yet so it couuldn't calculate that Serge would cross them until 5 years later. I just can't imaging FATE thinking "Huh - killing Serge didn't work, and catching Lucca didn't work. Man, I wish I didn't kill Serge so that I could copy his DNA and get back into the Flame again. Now what do i do?"
First, from what I remember, FATE DIDN'T kill me. I drown on opassa beach, just a natural accident, with a 50/50 chance. If Lynx had killed me, that would have been 100% me dying. However, the two timelines were created as a result of Kid coming back in time and saving me, after the current timeline had already killed me.
Second: Fate didn't even know of the prometheus circuit. "Or, more correctly... ...the circuit was programmed so that the moment FATE did detect it, it would erase all record of its detection."
I'm not sure where I am goign with this, but I'm sure someone can pick up the rest of my trail... right?
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OK - you guys are all right. It seems Serge's death does not release the Prometheus circuit's lock on the Frozen Flame, which gives FATE a good reason to go after Lucca. In trying to follow all of my thoughts through to fruition on this, I'm going to ask a question that takes this thread in a completely different direction.
Lucca states in the end of Cross that Belthasar built Chronopolis and orchestrated Project Kid all to empower Serge to defeat the Time Devourer. Part of this plan was the Time Crash. The Time Crash caused Chronopolis to be sent back into the past, in which it defeated Dinopolis in a war, terraformed an archipelago and populated it with inhabitants from both citiets, and avoided contact with the mainland, right? That means all the people of Termina (and all of El Nido) are ancestors of the Chronopolis workers, or the Dinopolis survivors. This includes Serge.
Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet. In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration. How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed? Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....? Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?
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First, from what I remember, FATE DIDN'T kill me. I drown on opassa beach, just a natural accident, with a 50/50 chance. If Lynx had killed me, that would have been 100% me dying. However, the two timelines were created as a result of Kid coming back in time and saving me, after the current timeline had already killed me.
Are you sure Serge? But indeed, it was an ''accident'' caused by Wazuki/Lynx.
But anyway...
Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet. In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration. How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed? Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....? Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?
Maybe he didn't exactly had set people in his plan, more like just the roles. Like for example, he has it like this: 'The ruler of El Nido will do this and that', and not: 'General Viper will do this and that'. But that's just what I think.
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And Belthasar was incredibly lucky. Lynx didn't find him in Viper Manor! Or else, the big cat might have squeezed all the useful information out of him. :lol:
Well, I don't know whether Belthasar knew Lynx was FATE at that time, he didn't run for his life...
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Maybe he didn't exactly had set people in his plan, more like just the roles. Like for example, he has it like this: 'The ruler of El Nido will do this and that', and not: 'General Viper will do this and that'. But that's just what I think.
I could probably accept that for General Viper, or the Devas or the other secondary characters, but not Serge. Belthasar would have to say "Eventually Schala will hear someone crying, and hopefully they'll be in such a place that she can get them to the Frozen Flame". That one is tough.
Now, if Belthasar did some kind of experiment where he put a trace of the Flame into a couple humans (or something similar), and he waited until their first decendant after Crono was born, he might've known Schala could hear his crying, because of his lineage. Then he just sends a panther demon and the rest is history.
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Wasn't it a Panther that killed Serge not Lynx? And...
FATE attempted to track down Lucca so that she may deactivate the Prometheus Circuit, which was preventing Chronopolis from accessing its source of power, the Frozen Flame.
She wouldn't do it. So OFF WITH HEAD!
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Wasn't it a Panther that killed Serge not Lynx?
That was when he got poisoned, but not killed until some years later. The actual murder attempt was indeed made by Lynx.
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Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet. In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration. How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed? Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....? Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?
You just make another interesting point, let us assume CE is canon, and there are some Zealians staff of Chronopolis. There is good chance that Serge is a descendant of the Zealian staff of Chronopolis, and his father and Serge's blue hair which I consider an anomaly from normal human nature might further prove this more. Perhaps that also answer why he possessed Crono's Luminaire, which is one of Zealian magic.
Sorry for being off topic, but this indulge me to point it out :P
I support the idea that perhaps Serge's creation is one of Project Kid plan, why? Keyword: Chrono Cross.
As far as I concern, Serge is the only one who can allocated Chrono Cross to his Element Grid, among over 40 characters.
I fully aware that I have entered world of gameplay, which isn't really canon nor part of a character's role. However, this may be one of plot that developer intended to be.
Anyway, if this is true, then Belthasar must use the only pawn that could use Chrono Cross, or Project Kid isn't working as planned.So, without any other choice, he has to create a person that could use Chrono Cross to save Schala through his project. Perhaps that might answer some of your question featuring his important role in survival of Home World and whether his creation is part of the plan or not.
And one more thing, I don't think Project Kid consist of linear plan. Perhaps the plan change from A to B by considering the suitable method and tactic for best possible outcome. Maybe he don't know the existence of Chrono Cross, then planned to create Serge by altering the timeline and the pre-accomplished plan so that he has authority of Chrono Cross power.
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I think that the CC only being usable by him goes back to the two dragon tears:
He used (or took part in the use of) the dragons tears, so after he used them, they were eternally "soul bound", to quote WOW, or atleast in a way that only those who have had a connection to the tears, who have experienced them, can use the CC.
And can someone please point me to the quote saying that Lynx took part in Serge drowning?
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Therefore, at the time of Belthasar's "orchestration", Serge has never even existed yet. In fact, Serge is a descendant of the people working with Belthasar during the orchestration. How can Belthasar orchestrate a plot to empower a person that has never yet existed? Unless, creating Serge was part of the plan too....? Could this help to answer why Serge is so important (or detrimental) to the survival of Home World, and why Schala could hear him crying?
The ending of the game shows that even in other dimensions, Schala Kid is looking for her "Serge". They're basically soulmates. CC's Schala was probably bound to hear/see/meet Serge too just like in the other dimensions.
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And can someone please point me to the quote saying that Lynx took part in Serge drowning?
Here you go...
Ten years ago, it was Lynx
who tried to kill you at
this beach.
After Prometheus broke the link
between FATE and the Flame,
FATE tried to eliminate any
obstacle that stood in its way!
Remember that FATE first thought that killing Serge would unlock the Flame, not being aware of the Prometheus Circuit yet.
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k!
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Regardless of who tries to kill Serge, we're still left with Belthasar concocting a plan to empower a person that has never existed. There has to be something special about Serge that was at least manipulated by Belthasar, causing him to want to empower that specific person, and also causing Schala to feel empathy for him instead of one of the millions of people dying in the Porre/Guardia war (like Crono, for instance). I doubt genetic engineering is beyond Belthasar's capabilities.
Do we know anything more about Serge's, Wazuki's or Serge's mother's lineage?
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Do we know anything more about Serge's, Wazuki's or Serge's mother's lineage?
We don't. From what the game tells us, that is a common fisherman's family.
Crono in CT is not a noble man or even important person, right?
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Do we know anything more about Serge's, Wazuki's or Serge's mother's lineage?
We don't. From what the game tells us, that is a common fisherman's family.
Crono in CT is not a noble man or even important person, right?
Right, but no one (besides the Entity) was pulling the strings for Crono. For Belthasar to do this, he had to know Serge (or a person like him, possessing whatever it was that Schala empathized with) would not only exist, but be hurt in such a way that Schala would sympathize with him and desire to save him by using the Frozen Flame. Only then can his whole plan be put into motion.
And, if Belthasar opened a history book just before he constructed FATE, Serge wouldn't be in it. Not just because he wasn't famous, but because he was never born, and in fact the entire set of islands on which he lives has never even existed.
I'm saying that, since Serge's oldest descendents were probably from Chronopolis, is it too much to assume that Belthasar influenced his existence? Could he have empowered a Chronopolis worker or two with something special that would pique Schala's interest (or her heart), then watched over them throughout history in the Neo-Epoch after the Time Crash, waiting for Schala to contact one of them? I think it's at least possible...
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Well, to answer that question, we must know what was Project Kid's original plan, but it seems the game doesn't contain enough direct information.
* Belthasar learnt that Schala and Lavos merged into a new being.
* Belthasar knew that a ChronoCross could free Schala from Lavos.
* The ChronoCross's creation needs 2 copies of Dragon Tear, thus 2 dimensions are needed.
So Belthasar must know how to cause dimension split.
* The person uses ChronoCross must have made contact with Schala herself.
So Belthasar knew the whole thing about a Schala clone(later Kid).
* The experiments in Chronopolis involved parallel worlds somehow. For example, the Radical Dreamers reports.
So 1. they could watch events happened in parallel worlds. OR 2. They just simulated those events.
That answers how Belthasar knew a man called Serge?
* If 2 is true(see above), the experiments might be inaccuracy, that's why Belthasar needed to time travel to make sure his plan not ruined by some random events.
...
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Well, to answer that question, we must know what was Project Kid's original plan, but it seems the game doesn't contain enough direct information.
* Belthasar learnt that Schala and Lavos merged into a new being.
* Belthasar knew that a ChronoCross could free Schala from Lavos.
* The ChronoCross's creation needs 2 copies of Dragon Tear, thus 2 dimensions are needed.
So Belthasar must know how to cause dimension split.
* The person uses ChronoCross must have made contact with Schala herself.
So Belthasar knew the whole thing about a Schala clone(later Kid).
* The experiments in Chronopolis involved parallel worlds somehow. For example, the Radical Dreamers reports.
So 1. they could watch events happened in parallel worlds. OR 2. They just simulated those events.
That answers how Belthasar knew a man called Serge?
* If 2 is true(see above), the experiments might be inaccuracy, that's why Belthasar needed to time travel to make sure his plan not ruined by some random events.
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I always thought that these experiments weren't done until after the Time Crash, and subsequently after 1010 AD. That should be the only time that Chronopolis could observe Home and Another world.
However, the Radical Dreamers dimension is interesting. I wonder where Serge came from in that dimension...? Observing that dimension could have let Belthasar know that Serge and Schala were "soul mates", for instance. However, if Belthasar was able to observe it before he orchestrated Project Kid, it would've had to have come into existence before the Time Crash. Or how bout this....
1) Belthasar sets up the Time Crash, and then departs for ~1010 AD.
2) Belthasar / Schala sends Kid to 1004 to be found by Lucca.
3) Belthasar goes to Chronopolis in ~1020 AD and observes the Radical Dreamers dimension, now made possible because the Time Crash has already occured and El Nido is formed. He observes Kid, Serge and Magus interacting, and realizes the attraction between Kid and Serge.
4) Belthasar travels back in time to 1006 AD and sets a panther demon on Serge. This event causes the events in Chrono Cross because Schala senses her "soul mate" is in danger when she hears him crying, and blows him to safety. Had the demon not attacked, he would've become the musician we knew in RD.
5) Belthasar watches Serge grow up and sees that he isn't the musician, and that he is the Arbiter of the Flame. He lets FATE kill him.
6) Belthasar then waits until 1020 AD, after Serge would have been old enough to handle the job he needs done. He sends Kid back to save him. Blah Blah Blah
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Problem there, Killercactus, is that letting Serge live destorys the future somehow (the exact process is never stated, but if Serge lives past 1010, the future's crap). The more original, less altered timeline appears to be that Serge dies before he grows up. Perhaps this was originally via the Panther Demon, and so FATE actually did have Lynx seek out and kill Serge so that Chronopolis would remain and the Frozen Flame could be unlocked.
But if Serge's dies in a comparitively unaltered timeline, that means Belthasar couldn't have gone to 1020 to observe how Kid, Serge, and Magil interacted. His knowledge that Serge had the potential to reach Schala had to have come before Serge's original death.
Perhaps we should prioritize Belthasar's priorities? First and formost, to save Schala he needed the ChronoCross. It does no good to get a powerful warrior into the DBT if they weren't armed with that to separate Schala from the TD. Thus, splitting the dimensions was of fundamental importance. Serge's importance to the plan may be entirely contained in the fact that he is the key that caused the dimensions to split and so he was the only one who could easily travel between dimensions to retrieve the dragon's tear.
Of course, Belthasar would need to have been aware of the Dragon's Tear in the first place, which implies that either he studied the reptite dimension or he traveled to 12,000 BCish to study Dinopolis, or that he had some way of searching entire dimensions for artifacts with that potential (the Dragon's Tear might not be unique in its ability but rather practicle). Given that the Dragonians created a shrine to create the Chrono Cross, it seems that Belthasar might have influenced them as well.
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Problem there, Killercactus, is that letting Serge live destorys the future somehow (the exact process is never stated, but if Serge lives past 1010, the future's crap).
I don't think we know this for sure. We know that if Serge lives past 1010 as an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, the future's crap. The exact process is never stated, but I've always assumed it had to do with the plotline that didn't totally make it into Cross, about Serge being consumed by the TD since he is an Arbiter. If he never becomes an Arbiter, the future may be safe after all - there's just no way to save Schala.
And you're right - Belthasar's first priority was to save Schala, for which he needed a Chrono Cross. To get a Chrono Cross, he needed two dimensions that had a Dragon Tear in them. The thing is though, there were already two dimensions with a Dragon Tear (Another World and the Radical Dreamers dimension), but he didn't have anyone that could traverse them (possibly besides FATE, but FATE has no need for it). What he needed was someone that could traverse two dimensions and obtain two Dragon Tears to create a Chrono Cross. He then probably decided just to use this person to defeat the TD as well, since the person would need to fight through hell just to create a Chrono Cross.
So, in order to make a dimensional-traveler, he knows he needs that person to touch the Flame. He installs Prometheus so that when that happens, FATE will challenge this person enough to be empowered by the end of the journey, and also to originally kill the person so that Kid can change the past and split the dimensions (he may also know that FATE will obtain one or both Dragon Tears to try and override Prometheus). In order to have that person touch the Flame, he needs to shut down Chronopolis' defenses. In order to do that, he needs Schala's power. In order to get Schala's power, he has to find someone she believes is worth saving, and the only available option to Schala to save that person must be the Flame.
So, if he observes the RD dimension in which Serge is not attacked and not made an Arbiter, and notices Kid and Serge's possible romantic attraction, he could decide that Schala would believe Serge is worth saving by using the Frozen Flame. That could be why Serge is chosen for all of this in the first place, and Belthasar could have set the panther demon on him to begin all of this.
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Nice observation, although I foreseen the romantic attraction as being simplistic excuses. I doubt she choose Serge to be saved over his brother who has gone through hell and devote to save her life. If you want to talk about possible love affair, choose Serge-Kid (clone) over Serge-Schala. Beside, it take the whole Radical Dreamer's duration before the love affair between Serge and Kid to bloom, that I assume last for a week. But in Chrono Cross, it only take 5 minute for Schala to contact with Serge temporarily. I assume she doesn't have adequate time needed to survey Serge merit of touching the Frozen Flame (beside she even could leave Serge alone, because he can be cured by Sage of Marbule anyway, did you remember that point in the storyline?), or even to be fanatical by his mysterious attraction.
Anyway, there are another possibility. Maybe Schala already acknowledge the Project Kid plan beforehand, and want to comply with them to save her life because not even her life in danger, but the whole time space continuum are under threat of defeated Lavos and Schala fusion aftermath, Time Devourer. It may be possible during the process of Schala contacting to Serge's era. Or probably between the duration of after fused with Lavos and obviously before Serge attacked by panther demon. Although the DBT feature and nature are still being discussed. It is comparable to End of Time feature that allowed any person to observe any possible era because its nature of being perpendicular to timeline.
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Magus doesn't need saved though, so Schala has no reason to save him. Plus, I'd think Belthasar would have a far tougher time mortally wounding Magus than a 3 year old Serge.
Secondly, I'm saying Schala would save Serge from the idea of them being soul mates, not necessarily because they just happened to fall for one another. By observation of the Radical Dreamers dimension, Belthasar could've postulated that Schala/Kid and Serge were indeed soul mates, and that Schala, with her now immense power, would be able to sense her soul mate was in danger and save him. I'm really just searching for a reason that Serge is important enough for Schala to waste her time on.
I tend to doubt that she, in her Time Devourer form in the DBT, has any idea about Project Kid. However, it is curious that she decides to clone herself and send her clone to that year.... I suppose it could've been in an attempt to be with her soul mate, Serge...?
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I don't think we know this for sure. We know that if Serge lives past 1010 as an Arbiter of the Frozen Flame, the future's crap.
True. But for that to have not been the more-original timeline, there would have needed to have been additional changes to the past. That is, in the more original timeline, Chronopolis gets sent to 12000ish B.C. The future changes because of that. From what the game seems to indicate, Serge's born in the first new-timeline after the Time Crash, gets bitten by a panther demon, comes in contact with the flame, and eventually gets offed by his father. For that to not be the timeline Belthasar would observe, there would need to be an intermediate timeline in which Serge did not come in contact with the FF and that the timeline was then changed to bring about the screw-serge timeline. Possible, certainly, but I'm not aware of any evidence.
The exact process is never stated, but I've always assumed it had to do with the plotline that didn't totally make it into Cross, about Serge being consumed by the TD since he is an Arbiter. If he never becomes an Arbiter, the future may be safe after all - there's just no way to save Schala.
It isn't even known if that was an plotline at all. For one, the game uses the term "Arbiter" in two different contexts. In Chronopolis, it appears to be nothing more than a security clearance: Serge wasn't the first and he might not be the last. The other use comes in the infodump at the end of the game, where Serge is designated as a mediator between lavos and the rest of the world (what he mediates, and why the FF would give serge power OVER lavos, isn't explained and may just be poetic).
The thing is though, there were already two dimensions with a Dragon Tear (Another World and the Radical Dreamers dimension)...
While I haven't played Radical Dreamers, I find no information in the encyclopedia that the Radical Dreamers Dimension had a Dragon's Tear.
So, in order to make a dimensional-traveler, he knows he needs that person to touch the Flame.
Sorry, you lost me there. How does he know he needs a person to touch the FF in order to make a Slider?
In order to get Schala's power, he has to find someone she believes is worth saving, and the only available option to Schala to save that person must be the Flame.
Huh. The impression I had was that the magenetic storm caused by Schala trying to reach serge was accidental; an unintended side effect. Certainly, that isn't definate. But are there any indications in the game to point to the magnetic storm being intentional?
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Huh. The impression I had was that the magenetic storm caused by Schala trying to reach serge was accidental; an unintended side effect. Certainly, that isn't definate. But are there any indications in the game to point to the magnetic storm being intentional?
Princess Schala traveled ten
thousand years in time to try
and make contact with this
dimension!
This caused a raging magnetic
storm that resulted in FATE's
system malfunction, which led
Serge to the Frozen Flame.
No, it was accidental.
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True. But for that to have not been the more-original timeline, there would have needed to have been additional changes to the past. That is, in the more original timeline, Chronopolis gets sent to 12000ish B.C. The future changes because of that. From what the game seems to indicate, Serge's born in the first new-timeline after the Time Crash, gets bitten by a panther demon, comes in contact with the flame, and eventually gets offed by his father. For that to not be the timeline Belthasar would observe, there would need to be an intermediate timeline in which Serge did not come in contact with the FF and that the timeline was then changed to bring about the screw-serge timeline. Possible, certainly, but I'm not aware of any evidence.
Unfortunately, the things I'm saying are loaded with assumptions. We know Belthasar had the Neo-Epoch, and at least traveled back to 1020. I'd be willing to bet (and am assuming here) he did a little bit more than that.
While I haven't played Radical Dreamers, I find no information in the encyclopedia that the Radical Dreamers Dimension had a Dragon's Tear.
I'm just going from pure logic here, though it's possibly flawed I suppose. In RD, El Nido exists (I think..right?), therefore the Time Crash has already happened, therefore Dinopolis was introduced, therefore Dragon Tear.
Sorry, you lost me there. How does he know he needs a person to touch the FF in order to make a Slider?
Yet another assumption, but considering that Lynx seems to be able to traverse the dimensions it seems logical that the Flame's power can do that.
Huh. The impression I had was that the magenetic storm caused by Schala trying to reach serge was accidental; an unintended side effect. Certainly, that isn't definate. But are there any indications in the game to point to the magnetic storm being intentional?
We don't. Here's what Lucca says:
Edited thanks to Acacia Sgt. posting it on the page before
Lucca seems to imply that the storm was caused by Schala merely trying to contact this time period. However, there's also this from Miguel's flashback:
Wazuki:
What is this place?
Miguel:
I don't know...
but I don't think we're
supposed to know about it...
[Schala]
That child...
That wounded child...
Bring him to me...
Schala, presumably through the Flame, is talking - wanting the child to be brought to her / it. If she caused the storm by accident, but she wanted the child to come to the Flame, did she just get incredibly lucky?
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I thought it was mentioned somewhere that dimensional splits were rather rare circumstances in the Chronoverse. If that's the case, I have a theory I find somewhat interesting.
If dimensional splits are rare, the best place to create one is where a piece of another dimension already exists. That is to say, Belthasar initiated the Time Crash having calculated that not only would Lavos pull Chronopolis back in time but that the planet would do the same with a piece of another dimension; Dinopolis. It was then a matter of terraforming the El Nido Archepelago so that, at a calculated time, causing a dimensional split would be possible. That said, orchestrating the event would be, in my opinion, the tricky part. So here's how I think it could have possibly went down.
Unless a dimensional split occurs, most 'discarded' timelines end up in the DBT. This would be the case of the events in Radical Dreamers. Given the case, Schala would have been able to see these events thus giving her not only a reason to create a clone of herself but a connection to Serge as well. This could be why Schala attempted to somehow save Serge.
How does Belthasar play into this? If he kept in contact with Lucca, he would have learned about Kid and as smart as he is, deduced that Schala had created her as part of a plan to save herself. Indeed, Project Kid could have easily been designed for Kid herself and not Serge. It wouldn't matter to Belthasar either way. Whether it was Kid or Serge who eventually made contact with the Flame, events would have played out that would have lead to a dimensional split and the creation of the ChronoCross.
Imagine if Kid had been the one to find the Flame and become the Arbiter. FATE would have still sought her out to kill her in order to reconnect with the Flame. All Belthasar would have to do then is go back in time, save her, and the dimensional split would be created. He would have then directed her on her journey to create the ChronoCross and save Schala. Instead, Schala chose Serge to become the Arbiter (intentionally or not is open to debate) and events played out as they did in the game. (Side note: Reaching Chronopolis, overcoming its defenses and coming into contact with the Flame would have been easy enough for Kid given that she was protected by that conundrum of an amulet she posessed. It wouldn't have been a breeze, but possible.)
Why was the future doomed if Serge had lived? Simple enough really. Had Serge lived, Project Kid wouldn't be able to reach a conclusion. The Time Devourer would have matured and then game over. One could almost say that Serge was destined to die once becoming the Arbiter.
As long winded as all that was, its my two cents on the whole thing.
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I'm just going from pure logic here, though it's possibly flawed I suppose. In RD, El Nido exists (I think..right?), therefore the Time Crash has already happened, therefore Dinopolis was introduced, therefore Dragon Tear.
It doesn't. Since that dimension's Schala was sent directly to the early 1000's and the TD never came to be, Belthasar had no reason to create Chronopolis. Serge is from the mainland and Viper Manor was also made there, meaning the Dragoons never left since there wasn't an El Nido to go to.
Lucca seems to imply that the storm was caused by Schala merely trying to contact this time period. However, there's also this from Miguel's flashback:
Wazuki:
What is this place?
Miguel:
I don't know...
but I don't think we're
supposed to know about it...
[Schala]
That child...
That wounded child...
Bring him to me...
Schala, presumably through the Flame, is talking - wanting the child to be brought to her / it. If she caused the storm by accident, but she wanted the child to come to the Flame, did she just get incredibly lucky?
Yes, she was lucky they made it to Chronopolis. Had they been able to reach Marbule despite the storm, things would have gone very differently. Which makes me wonder, did Belthasar knew the storm would happen? Or at least something that would cause them to go where he needs them to?
Or you could say that even before that, he anticipated a panther to poison Serge in order for Schala to hear him? Or replace panther and poison with anything that would get the same result.
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Schala, presumably through the Flame, is talking - wanting the child to be brought to her / it. If she caused the storm by accident, but she wanted the child to come to the Flame, did she just get incredibly lucky?
That labeling/attribution in the script might be wrong.
Question: In Miguels' flashback, whose voice did Wazuki and Miguel hear in Chronopolis?
Answer: The Frozen Flame's voice. Or, the thoughts of the Frozen Flame converted into human's language in their own minds. That would perhaps be the more appropriate answer.
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I see, it was just the flame. Still, it was lucky for them to end up there. They could have as easily ended up in any of the three surrounding islands, totally ruining the whole thing.
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I see, it was just the flame. Still, it was lucky for them to end up there. They could have as easily ended up in any of the three surrounding islands, totally ruining the whole thing.
Right, which is kind of why I assumed that someone meant for them to turn up there. It's definitely part of Belthasar's plan to have FATE go after an Arbiter, so someone has got to touch the Flame for that to happen.
Also, thanks for the RD correction - I had forgotten Schala was teleported straight to 1000 AD and that Serge was from the mainland. That's very interesting though, if we try to wrap Radical Dreamers into all of this... is Serge's family possibly from the mainland in Chrono Cross?
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Well, technically, yes. But remember that is because the ones to first live in El Nido were the people of Chronopolis, which mostly were from the mainland, and it took thousands of years for the people of the mainland to discover and travel to El Nido.
Serge's family comes from the former group.
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Well, technically, yes. But remember that is because the ones to first live in El Nido were the people of Chronopolis, which mostly were from the mainland, and it took thousands of years for the people of the mainland to discover and travel to El Nido.
Serge's family comes from the former group.
Right, but I guess what I'm saying is that if Serge in CC is the same Serge from RD, just in a different dimension, Serge can't be a descendant of the Chronopolis workers because Chronopolis wasn't there in the RD dimension. If he isn't, it takes away any "genetic engineering" Belthasar could've done to Serge's descendants.
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Well, there you go, they aren't exactly dimensional counterparts.
Which makes me wonder if that Serge (RD's) was also in the CC time line, back there in the main land. I don't see why not, but who knows?