Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Chrono'99 on June 25, 2009, 11:12:33 am
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A federal class action lawsuit has been brought against Square Enix by a Final Fantasy XI player, seeking more than $5 million for what is alleged to be "unfair business practices, false advertising and unjust enrichment".
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174941
Digg it: http://digg.com/gaming_news/Square_Enix_Sued_for_Deceiving_Customers
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Good. Keep their friggin' lawyers busy with something constructive to do for a while...
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Hahahaa...this is quite amusing. It seems like a frivolous lawsuit, but perhaps it could get more interesting as we see the suit progress...
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what are the odds to this! XD Wow...
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actually to me it seems kindof stupid.
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Wowzers, I don't foresee SE losing, but the fans really are starting to turn on 'em, eh? I wonder how this will all play out, will SE actually go to court on this or will there be an out of court settlement. Hell, are more fans gonna turn on the company too? What a wonderful world.
Here's a link (http://www.courthousenews.com/2009/06/24/SquareEnix.pdf) to the court filing, for those interested.
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I'm in support of SE on this one.
I mean, it is a perfectly good lawsuit... but seriously, 5 mil? uh-uh, not going for that.
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This........will be a pleasant thought for weeks to come.
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Gasp, SE's lawyers are engaged in frivolous legal actions?! That is so terribly unlike them.
<.<
>.>
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Looks like $150k won't be enough for them if the court takes this to trial. IF being the key word.
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Hehe, Karma. They give us a C&D, they get a lawsuit.
I mean, it is a perfectly good lawsuit... but seriously, 5 mil? uh-uh, not going for that.
Well, the report did say that SE cheated over 100,000 customers out of there money. Maybe they 5mil isn't just for the one guy but for everyone that was decieved.
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Could the C&D against CE be used as evidence of "unfair business practices?" Also, mav, is "unjust enrichment" related to the concept of "positive harm" as you understand it? It's pretty mindblowing to me.
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Hehe, Karma. They give us a C&D, they get a lawsuit.
I mean, it is a perfectly good lawsuit... but seriously, 5 mil? uh-uh, not going for that.
Well, the report did say that SE cheated over 100,000 customers out of there money. Maybe they 5mil isn't just for the one guy but for everyone that was decieved.
Well when it says the kid who's suing will be passing out checks to all those 100,000 customers, lemme know and I'll support.
Until then, what could be used as a great case against SE just seems to me like a greedy kid who just found his way in.
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Well when it says the kid who's suing will be passing out checks to all those 100,000 customers, lemme know and I'll support.
Until then, what could be used as a great case against SE just seems to me like a greedy kid who just found his way in.
A federal class action lawsuit...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action_lawsuit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_action_lawsuit)
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I noticed some of this when I was playing FFXI. I left for a few months and came back only to find out I had to pay extra to start my account back up :x. There was something else that they tacked on a hidden fee that I didn't see until I got my credit report that I can't remember right now... so this doesn't surprise me. I'm sure they had these fees mentioned in some legal thing you have to agree to when you make a payment.
as to the accuser not knowing FFXI was an mmo... thats their own dam fault, it mentions it right on the box.
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I just saw this and was like, What goes around comes around BITCH!
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Could the C&D against CE be used as evidence of "unfair business practices?"
I'm honestly not sure how it couldn't be. Chances are, people on the development team owned the original cartridge so possessing the ROM isn't illegal in any way. Plus, there was no plan for monetary gain, they were just messing with code in hopes to make a full-fledged sequel to share across the internet for free.
I really don't see why they would bother sending a C&D to begin with, all of the activity was harmless.
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I just saw this and was like, What goes around comes around BITCH!
Hah! Well put, ZealKnight.
Could the C&D against CE be used as evidence of "unfair business practices?" Also, mav, is "unjust enrichment" related to the concept of "positive harm" as you understand it? It's pretty mindblowing to me.
From my limited understanding, positive harm generally comes about from one organization getting a positive benefit due to the [unlawful] actions of another organization. I don't know if positive harm occurs outside of copyright cases, but that's where my understanding from. Let's say Crimson Echoes was released, if Square saw an increase in the popularity and demand for Chrono Trigger, Square would be getting the positive harm: they're harmed by the theft of copyright material, but are gaining something positive out the entire situation.
I believe unjust enrichment is when one organization or company is making expenses off another organization, company, or person through unlawful means or wrongful actions. Let's say you sign up for a service by a company and you later find out that the company was making inordinate money off you due to some mistake (on their part) or maybe even some kind of factual omission, that would be unjust enrichment.
The difference comes down to the fact that positive harm comes from a company benefiting because of the unlawful action of someone else (like copyright infringement), whereas unjust enrichment comes from a company using unlawful actions to benefit off someone else, without that person's knowledge. I hope that made sense--unjust enrichment is too overly elaborated for me to get a coherent understanding...
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Quick! Finish CE and release it while their lawyers are distracted! :lol:
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If the kid's got a good case, then good for them.
5 million/100,000=$50 gained for each member of the law suit. This one is actually not so frivolous as I had thought when I read this.
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Dipshits finally got what they deserved. Problem is, they'll probably win anyway. We'll see where it goes. I hope they lose. Looks like the lawyers there finally have something better to do than to get bored and send cease and desists.
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damn, you guys keep beating me to these news reports, i was just about to post this
but yeah, i couldnt think about whether the case is just or not, in my mind the only thing i was thinking was "take that SE"
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Really though, any large corporation is engaged in numerous lawsuits at any one time. This is probably just another speck on top of an already large docket.
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Hmm...this should turn out interesting....*chuckles*
Though I will admit that Square Enix is rather snobbish with these matters at times.
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Really though, any large corporation is engaged in numerous lawsuits at any one time. This is probably just another speck on top of an already large docket.
Figures. Facts always get in the way of a "booyah!" feeling when someone gets what they deserve. :(
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Really though, any large corporation is engaged in numerous lawsuits at any one time. This is probably just another speck on top of an already large docket.
Aye, but when was the last time such news got spread around so much?
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The term ' instant karma' comes to mind.
Even if it goes nowhere, it's satisfying to read.
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SE got busy with lawsuit drama recently eh? I doubt the person who sued SE can win in any way,
otherwise, 5M is nothing to SE but another throw of 50 gram for such big company. I still wondering what the victim of 100,00
people gonna do with the money if they win.
I hope this got nothing to do with Chrono Compendium event recently.
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Really, I kinda want square to win. The reason being, What will happen to them? What are the repercussions of this law suit? Delay of XIII? Delay of XIV? Nothing but FF now? I'm sure it won't be too big of a blow, but really this could be a major blow to their rep in the least. Also this will lie on the judge. You know Red Bull's Slogan is no longer it gives you wings because someone sued false advertising? SE may just lose.
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Sweet justice! I'm hoping the former FFXI fans will get their $50; considering all the BS Square-Enix has doled out to it's many fans, it's the least they could do. It hasn't been the same on any front since the merger...
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Really, I kinda want square to win. The reason being, What will happen to them? What are the repercussions of this law suit? Delay of XIII? Delay of XIV? Nothing but FF now? I'm sure it won't be too big of a blow, but really this could be a major blow to their rep in the least. Also this will lie on the judge. You know Red Bull's Slogan is no longer it gives you wings because someone sued false advertising? SE may just lose.
It is scary, because I just drink a tin of Red Bull....... WTF??
I think the chance of win for SE depend on whether the lawsuit brought up was a BS or not. Among the post in this thread, only 1 person prove the lawsuit is real *'point at Celdine's post* The chance for win is slim if it proved not BS.
I know not for the repercussion or consequences for such victory on the side of the lawsuit bringer to SE, but rest assured that any bad reputation they take responsible with will gradually fade away eventually and they become themselves, a money-grubbing company as usual :|
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The one thing I don't really like about this is the whole "Avenge CE!" attitude that is coming from here...
I mean, it's not justice, because this group gets nothing out of it and is unrelated.
And vengance, revenge, etc, is not always a good mindset. I mean, its kindof like a double standard: they shouldn't be able to do it to us, but WE should totally do it to them!
HOWEVER I do support the idea of it being used as a mechanism of justice for the FF online people. I mean, as long as the FF online people get their cut. I don't like the idea of one guy getting it all.
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It's a class-action lawsuit, IAmSerge; no one person will be receiving the whole sum. If they win the trial, the money will be split amongst all the plaintiffs. Also, I think most people here aren't reacting in a way that would indicate they think this is justice for CE; just having some schadenfreude. :P SE doesn't have a good reputation with it's fans for numerous reasons, most of which extend way past the realm of what happened with CE.
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I mean, it's not justice, because this group gets nothing out of it and is unrelated.
Sure we get something out of it. That nice feeling in the pit of our stomachs about someone getting their comeuppance.
And vengance, revenge, etc, is not always a good mindset. I mean, its kindof like a double standard: they shouldn't be able to do it to us, but WE should totally do it to them!
We're happy because they did it first and someone else is doing it to them.
Also, I think most people here aren't reacting in a way that would indicate they think this is justice for CE; just having some schadenfreude. :P SE doesn't have a good reputation with it's fans for numerous reasons, most of which extend way past the realm of what happened with CE.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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As punishment they should be forced to complete Chrono Resurrection on Wii and DS and give it away for free!
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With FF14 SE's just prying open their buttholes begging us to stick it in there... I think FF11 in general was pretty lame. What'll be different about FF14?
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To be honest, I thought it was "SE sued someone" for a second when I saw that title.
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Anybody who doesn't agree with this lawsuit isn't really a Chrono Trigger fan on the inside and thus is a hypocrite to me.
I am glad the fans are standing up to those friggin Basterds who tried to take away our instrests.
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Anybody who doesn't agree with this lawsuit isn't really a Chrono Trigger fan on the inside and thus is a hypocrite to me.
I am glad the fans are standing up to those friggin Basterds who tried to take away our instrests.
There is no logic there. You really are just saying this is revenge. Who knows maybe it's dark serge trying to regain our respect :lol:. Tha'd be funny. No seriously we shouldn't care if the win. But I do agree they deserve this. They have abused the law too much, and this is karma. But us supporting them out of anger is no better.
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What do you mean, agree with this lawsuit, Triforce? Most of us don't know what this lawsuit is about--unfair business practices and unjust enrichment (which is a really awkwardly-worded concept) are meaningless to us. We as Chrono fans have nothing to gain or lose from this lawsuit, but perhaps as people with a vested interest in SE (whether it's a positive interest or a negative interest) we do have a stake in this case. But feeling that this lawsuit is impertinent doesn't make us a hypocrite. Claiming it's impertinent and then griping about SE winning may make us hypocrites.
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Mav, Unfair Business Practices means that they screwed their customers. More specifically, it means they lied or deceived their customers to get money from them.
Unjust Enrichment is more or less what it sounds like; they enriched themselves in an unjust way, i.e., stealing, insurance fraud, screwing their customers, etc.
These probably aren't the most specific definitions, but the true "legal" definitions vary from state to state and country to country, plus they can be about 300 pages long each.
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Right, those definitions are accurate, but have we, as Chrono fans, been a victim of unfair business practices? Some contend that the high price of their games is unfair, others contend that the C&D is an example of an unfair business practice. In my opinion, we haven't been hit with the brunt of their unfair business practices. As for unjust enrichment, isn't that just another example of unfair business practice?
Oh and, when I said we don't know what this is about I meant the specifics of the case, but yeah, I suppose it's not meaningless to all of us...just some of us.
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I think you're stretching it a bit with that. The only real way that prices can be deemed "unfair" is through provable collusion, i.e., if Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft got together and said that they wouldn't charge anything less than $70 for a new game. Since those three companies more or less run the console and handheld industry, it would be Unfair Business Practices and Unjust Enrichment, since there's no alternative.
As for the C&D, well, I've never been a big fan of companies using police-tactics against their fans who create derivative works, but they were within their legal rights.
Here is some info from the EFF:
"Courts have previously found that a use was fair where the use of the copyrighted work was socially beneficial. In particular, U.S. courts have recognized the following fair uses: criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, research and parodies."
So, the only real ROM hacks that would be considered legal are the spoof hacks that we all know and love. There was a link here earlier that led to someone hacking the rom to criticize Square-Enix's crackdown on Crimson Echoes, which was pretty funny and technically legal under this definition.
But enough about that; the point is whether or not Square used Unfair Business Practices in this case.
My understanding is that they used a loophole in the FFXI subscription service to overcharge their customers, which might be deemed illegal unless Square can prove that the wording of the "contract" was not misleading.
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Just to be clear, I don't really agree with people who considered both the high prices and the C&D unfair business tactics, I just brought 'em up as possible examples as to how this affects the Chrono community (hell, I think they were mentioned in this topic). You're right though--the unjust enrichment in this case isn't about hiking prices, this case probably has to do with undue influence and some failure of consideration.
But tell me, how does this particular case affect the Chrono community at large? Does it at all or are we still holding a grudge against this company?
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But tell me, how does this particular case affect the Chrono community at large? Does it at all or are we still holding a grudge against this company?
We're holding a grudge. But we're human, and a bit of schadenfreund from bystanders never hurt anyone.
Besides, its human nature to support the little guy unless the little guy is a complete bastard.
The only way I can see it affecting us(and this is a joke scenario) is if the loss of 5 million dollars cripples Square so badly that they have to release a new game really quickly and really cheaply, thus turning to Crimson Echoes which is 98% with no loss of money to them.
Hehe. Dreaming is fun.
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Isn't it also human nature to pursue perfection? I'm pretty sure revenge makes us imperfect.
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Isn't it also human nature to pursue perfection?
Only if you're Gendo Ikari.
But then again, I'm extremely pessimistic about mankind's nature, so don't mind my grumblings on the matter.
Revenge makes it seem childish, as does calling this Square Enix's comeuppance or just desserts, I'll agree. But screw it, if they can hold on to their paranoia regarding fan made derivative works, then I can hold on to my silent glee at watching something bad happen, even if its this small, to them.
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Isn't it also human nature to pursue perfection?
What we want to pursue is individual, i.e. you might pursue a carrier as a scientist while I pursue a job as a musician. It is human nature to want. If someone wants to pursue prefection, they will. But then there are people that don't care for it, so they won't pursue it.
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Well, I for one look forward to seeing if this goes anywhere. I discovered about this before it was even mentioned here, through an online bud who told me that he's one of the folks that got screwed. :shock:
Revenge is nasty, 'nuff said. But there's no harm in the joy of karmic backlash on a bully. I'm slightly hoping that S-E will lose this lawsuit, so the ripped-off customers can get some semblance of justice.
Hey, for all we know this really could effect our community somehow... might bring up other unfair business practices that S-E's conducted, like those C&D's be brought to light as an odd twisting of the law. I've often wondered if they do that to make us stop loving CT/CC so we'd get more into FF - has anyone ever thought of such a bizarre tactic being a possibility? Certainly wouldn't put it past them, since they've already shown that they care more for FF games than any other series they're in charge of.
So, enough bickering amongst ourselves and whatnot - let's see if the lawsuit happens & see its results...
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I for one know this to be true, I cancelled my ff11 account for 2 months and they still charged me for those 2 months...I dont know what proof this kid is gonna show but I sure hope at least some investigation is done on the subject.
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I wish SE would just disappear...
FFXI on the 360 just fucking blows.
1. You have to pay for TWO accounts (XBOX and SE)
2. You have to play for months YEARS to get the achievements (Level 75 in all jobs, people who've played understand how almost impossible that is)
The point of number 2 is that Microsoft's Achievement Policy states that an XBOX 360 game must have at least 1000 points and that 1000 points cannot require extra content/more money to be achieved. What does that mean? You can't have an achievement that requires you to download and use a map/gun/etc. to earn it, you can download DLC to earn it, but you also must be able to earn the achievement WITHOUT it. The extra points afterwords (up to 750 now) are DLC only, but that's not what we're talking about.
FFXI VIOLATES this with number 1, on top of paying Microsoft's membership fee, you must pay SE's fee as well. SE's fee violates the policy since it is an extra fee that is required to earn all the achievements.
I wonder if I could sue with that, hmm...
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Now this just makes me happy. :D
Now if only there was a way for game companies to make money without alienating the fanbase. But until that day comes...
It's called karma, Sqeenix. If you're gonna keep acting like pricks, then you'd better get used to it. :P
And that's enough for me.
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I'm 100% sure you can have a Silver Live account and still play FFXI.
Here (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/envi/xbox/xbox01.html?pageID=xbox)
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I'm 100% sure you can have a Silver Live account and still play FFXI.
Here (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/envi/xbox/xbox01.html?pageID=xbox)
Still violates the policy with their membership.
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The expansions don't count as DLC. No DLC to see here. (http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/games/media/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d802535107d5/)
The total possible gamerpoints from FFXI is 1250. The original 1000 can be earned with the 1st game released for the 360 which included all expansions to date.
The additional 250 is from Wings of the Goddess. Achievements (http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/final-fantasy-xi/achievements/).
New policy states you can add 250 with an expansion or dlc Here (http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2007/02/01/540575.aspx)
That was back in '07.
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The expansions don't count as DLC. No DLC to see here. (http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/games/media/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d802535107d5/)
The total possible gamerpoints from FFXI is 1250. The original 1000 can be earned with the 1st game released for the 360 which included all expansions to date.
The additional 250 is from Wings of the Goddess. Achievements (http://www.xbox360achievements.org/game/final-fantasy-xi/achievements/).
New policy states you can add 250 with an expansion or dlc Here (http://gamerscoreblog.com/team/archive/2007/02/01/540575.aspx)
That was back in '07.
No, you see, you're paying them extra via their membership. It doesn't matter if it's not DLC, you can't get the achievements without paying them to play the game.
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Isn't that the point of 90% of MMO's? Microsoft still has to OK all 360 games. So it is really a moot point.
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Really, I kinda want square to win. The reason being, What will happen to them? What are the repercussions of this law suit? Delay of XIII? Delay of XIV? Nothing but FF now? I'm sure it won't be too big of a blow, but really this could be a major blow to their rep in the least. Also this will lie on the judge. You know Red Bull's Slogan is no longer it gives you wings because someone sued false advertising? SE may just lose.
Some people are just plain stupid... More likely SE will make a "terms of usage" form stating that you ;;may;; be charged extra, and claim that it was present at the time of the release of FFXI.
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No, you see, you're paying them extra via their membership. It doesn't matter if it's not DLC, you can't get the achievements without paying them to play the game.
Even if there is no exemption for MMOs, paying the monthly fee is part of the cost to play the game. There is no game you can get achievements for without paying to play it. Most of them you just pay up front.
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No, you see, you're paying them extra via their membership. It doesn't matter if it's not DLC, you can't get the achievements without paying them to play the game.
Even if there is no exemption for MMOs, paying the monthly fee is part of the cost to play the game. There is no game you can get achievements for without paying to play it. Most of them you just pay up front.
QFT. That is a great way to look at it. I didn't even think of it like that.
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Hmm, so does anyone know any details of when it will begin?
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Hmm, so does anyone know any details of when it will begin?
No idea, but the news has now reached GameSpot:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6214710.html
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I don't think it really matters. SE did put all that stuff in the terms of play, and she had to hit agree.