Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Shadow_Dragon on April 30, 2005, 01:57:16 am
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I'm at the point in my replay of CC where i have to get the dragon plates, and i though about how lynx keeps kid around (kid should've realized that dark serge/lynx STABBED her)
there's one line in CC aruond the time in which Lynx and Serge 'switch' bodies that implies that Serge and Lynx didn't SWITCH bodies, but that Serge's memories were sent to Lynx's body and vise-versa. Thus, when you play in Lynx's body you ARE playing as Lynx, but Lynx now feels as if he has been Serge for all his life, and Serge feels as if he has been Lynx.
I don't think that Lynx has any real reason to keep Kid around, I mean that he could've just killed her to hurt Serge. Maybe, somehow, Serge (as Dark Serge with Lynx's memories) hasn't forgotten his feelings for Kid, and wants to remain around Kid and instead controls her
I'm searching the CC Script that's on gamefaqs, but i'm downloading something so it stops loading (and the first time it stopped loading right at the place where it should be, when Harle talks to Lynx in that tower in the painting-like dimension)
I've always hated the Kid-Serge relationship, since I've always thought of Leena as Serge's true girlfiend, but if only they had decided to let Serge talk I think I'd be more accepting of Kid... my theory, however, makes it seems that Serge and Kid are 'destined' to be together, even if Serge is possed by 'fasle' (to him) memories
EDIT: i found it:
Harle: Ooh la lah... So, you still insist zat you are Serge, oui? Regardless your memoire az zis Serge... You may be able to rewrite it if you use ze Dragon Tear. In realite, you died 10 yearz ago in ze odder world. How can you say for sure zis iz ze real you? Maybe for you it is evident, but... I wonder if you ever really were Serge...? Furthermore... what waz zis Serge? A figure, a shape? A spirit? A soul? Where waz zis Serge?
It may be a minor detail, but i think it's important
and also, i think that it's important to note that Dark Serge implies that he's going to kill Kid while they're in the fort (he says that he's going to send her to meet Lucca), so something must've happened to change his mind
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I'm almost completely sure that Serge and Lynx didnt transform into each other, but their minds simply switched.
And why would Dark Serge keep Kid around? Well, Lynx(Serge) was still alive for all they knew, and Kid wants revenge on Lynx. Lynx was basically just using her, playing on her hatred towards someone she thought she hates.
now, as for Dark Serge stabbing kid, shouldnt Kid remmber that, and put two and two together? The game said that her pendant rewinds time a bit, and puts her into safety. I'm pretty sure that she forgets everything that happens in the time prior to being pulled to safety, forgeting the short term memories.
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I guess there's really no difference between their memories' being switched and their minds' being switched
I just don't see why Lynx would want to have Kid around when he could simply kill her and she wouldn't bug him again, but maybe he was forced to use her after trying to kill her several times... that makes more sense
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why kill what you could exploit?
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because she's stupid, annoying, quick to fall to vengence, and talks with a weird accent
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dark serge used her because after serge and lynx switched bodys she thought that dark serge was serge and as Sentenal said why kill what you can exploit and Shadow_Dragon I believe you played the american version she may not have had the accent in the japanese version and as for stupid and quick to vengance so its just her personality you'd be quick to vengence if lynx killed your family
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Dark Serge kept Kid by his side so that she wouldn't learn that he was actually Lynx. Think about it, all the time after Lucca's orphanage was destroyed Lynx had this teenage girl trying to kill him. And she was a pretty good fighter. Now if you had the chance to keep a mortal enemy on your side instead of trying to kill you AND have them kill your other enemy would you take it? Hmm, thats a mystery.
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now, as for Dark Serge stabbing kid, shouldnt Kid remmber that, and put two and two together? The game said that her pendant rewinds time a bit, and puts her into safety. I'm pretty sure that she forgets everything that happens in the time prior to being pulled to safety, forgeting the short term memories.
Where exactly is this explained in the game? By rewinding time do you mean just her memory or what? I forget...
I also thought it was silly that Lynx/Dark Serge kept Kid alive, because she figured out the trick right before being stabbed. But if she forgets that moment...
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its a fact that her pendant is what saves her from near-death situations, be it stabbing by dark serge, the orphanage fire, and so forth. I says that it rewinds time a bit. So, maybe that's why she seems to loose her short term memory...?
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First off, I'm seeing it here for the first time so, saridon, BITCHIN avy & sig banner man!
Regardless your memoire az zis Serge... You may be able to rewrite it if you use ze Dragon Tear.
That first part doesn't sound right...Are you sure this is an accurate script? Or did you type it wrong? Well, anyhoo...The second part seems like she's just saying that he can change things back to the way they are (ie get his form back).
As to why Lynx would keep her around...Aside from what's already been mentioned, FATE (& thusly Lynx) are on a balancing act between sanity and insanity as far as I can tell...Take all the whacked shit Dark Serge says after he obtains Serge's form...Too many Mother Brain circuits.
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First off, I'm seeing it here for the first time so, saridon, BITCHIN avy & sig banner man!
:D thanks
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First off, I'm seeing it here for the first time so, saridon, BITCHIN avy & sig banner man!
Regardless your memoire az zis Serge... You may be able to rewrite it if you use ze Dragon Tear.
That first part doesn't sound right...Are you sure this is an accurate script? Or did you type it wrong? Well, anyhoo...The second part seems like she's just saying that he can change things back to the way they are (ie get his form back).
As to why Lynx would keep her around...Aside from what's already been mentioned, FATE (& thusly Lynx) are on a balancing act between sanity and insanity as far as I can tell...Take all the whacked shit Dark Serge says after he obtains Serge's form...Too many Mother Brain circuits.
It's definitely a mostly acurate quote, if not completely, since I do specifically remember it from the game
Recently, I haven't thought of FATE as insane to any degree, but that she was completely set on ensuring Lavos' defeat even if it meant taking away the world's (or at least El Nido's) free will, but that once she found out that she was created for a goal, she went through eveyrthing to try and break free from it and to do it she tried to take the frozen flame, which she had in her grasp, although she was never able to get it because her being 'controlled' and destined prevented it... I haven't played the part of the game in Chornopolis, so some of my theories may be based on false memories
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If possible, refer to Sheamon's transcript located on GameFAQs when quoting from the game. GameFAQs doesn't allow direct linking to the faqs, but you will find it under Chrono Cross FAQs.
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Well, for one, the game does suggest that FATE is a tad bit nutso because of it being based around the old Mother Brain program.
As for the accuracy of that script...I asked because I thought 'memoire' wasn't the right word...but now I think it is...
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"memoire" is a french word for memory too and I think Harle has a french accent (wierd eh? why?) so it wouldn't surprise me that she said memoire
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She only has a French accent in the English version, I forget what she sounds like in the Japanese version.
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Less like a retard. I'm fairly sure she has no accent at all...
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Maybe she'd have a Kansai accent? You know like the fuedal age japanese merchant type one. With slang, or would that be Kid.
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Okay, maybe a dumb question. It's been awhile since I've played CC...
If Kid's pendant rewinds time a bit to save her from death, why the whole poison-knife/hydra humor incident/quest. Shouldn't she be just fine and forget getting stabbed on the balcony? Or did she not have her pendant at that particular time? And where exactly in the game are the pendant's properties explained?
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Okay, maybe a dumb question. It's been awhile since I've played CC...
If Kid's pendant rewinds time a bit to save her from death, why the whole poison-knife/hydra humor incident/quest. Shouldn't she be just fine and forget getting stabbed on the balcony? Or did she not have her pendant at that particular time? And where exactly in the game are the pendant's properties explained?
That's a good question. Another one : is it really time which is rewinded or just Kid's health?
Anyway, perhaps the pendant rewinds stuff only when Kid is actually killed (like at Fort Dragonia), not before.
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because she's stupid, annoying, quick to fall to vengence, and talks with a weird accent
But she's Schala reincarnate :D
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No one has addressed the real issue here. If Kid's pendant rewinds time so she does not remember being stabbed, and also does not remember that Serge and Lynx switched, when she wakes up later it should be very clear to her something is very wrong with Serge. He dresses completely differently, he ACTS completely different (I think he goes around terrorizing people in the cities with his shadow cats - at least Arni is afraid of him), and his goals would have changed a lot since the last memory of him. Yet she doesn't question any of this and continues to follow him around? I don't understand at all. You could say Dark Serge altered her memory using FATE, but if that's the case then the whole pendant part holds no relevance since FATE un-did her memories.
I never understood why Dark Serge became all mean anyway. He just suddenly goes around terrorizing people? I wonder why that is.
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Regardless your memoire az zis Serge... You may be able to rewrite it if you use ze Dragon Tear.
She is not literally saying that Lynx has inherited Serge's memories. They most definitely have switched bodies by switching consciousnesses, and even if they just switched memories, as you suggested in an earlier post, this would not be the same thing as switching consciousnesses. Think if you lost your memories through amnesia, would you suddenly be a different person? No.
What Harle is doing here is trying to "psyche" Serge out. She taunts him by asking him how he knows he's really Serge, when he clearly looks like Lynx. It is noteworthy that for the majority of the time that Serge is in Lynx's body, Harle refers to him as "Lynx", but by the time she leaves the party, she has started calling him "Serge".
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Okay, maybe a dumb question. It's been awhile since I've played CC...
If Kid's pendant rewinds time a bit to save her from death, why the whole poison-knife/hydra humor incident/quest. Shouldn't she be just fine and forget getting stabbed on the balcony? Or did she not have her pendant at that particular time? And where exactly in the game are the pendant's properties explained?
It doesn't actually rewind time or something like that. She forgets about it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The wounds still remain regardless of her memory.
As for the whole body switching... They switched bodies or they switched minds. It's pretty much the same. As for Dark Serge keeping Kid around, not only did she not remember the stabbing, he also used a mind spell on her. Obviously, otherwise she wouldn't have gone along with it.
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Okay, maybe a dumb question. It's been awhile since I've played CC...
If Kid's pendant rewinds time a bit to save her from death, why the whole poison-knife/hydra humor incident/quest. Shouldn't she be just fine and forget getting stabbed on the balcony? Or did she not have her pendant at that particular time? And where exactly in the game are the pendant's properties explained?
It doesn't actually rewind time or something like that. She forgets about it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. The wounds still remain regardless of her memory.
As for the whole body switching... They switched bodies or they switched minds. It's pretty much the same. As for Dark Serge keeping Kid around, not only did she not remember the stabbing, he also used a mind spell on her. Obviously, otherwise she wouldn't have gone along with it.
Supported. Replay the attack by Dark Serge on Hermit's Hideaway. He refers to Serge-Lynx as Serge openly right in from of Kid, and she doesn't even flinch. Clearly she is not herself.
When you complete the Hydra Humour quest, and you talk to Kid, she says that she would have been fine anyway. I don't remember the exact phrase used, but she implies that she knows she is immune to death somehow.
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It is ineresting they even switch skills, but not weapons...
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They don't switch skills, Dark Serge keeps Glide, FeralCats and ForeverZero. My guess is that Serge just can't get used to Serge's body so he can't use his own skills effectively.
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Ah, that's even stranger. So Lynx(or we say real Serge) mastered those skill at once, does that means they are parts of the body?
Never mind, I'm not too curious about that.
Since they have designed a Lynx, if you can't use the new skills, what's the point?
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Harle: Ooh la lah... So, you still insist zat you are Serge, oui? Regardless your memoire az zis Serge... You may be able to rewrite it if you use ze Dragon Tear. In realite, you died 10 yearz ago in ze odder world. How can you say for sure zis iz ze real you? Maybe for you it is evident, but... I wonder if you ever really were Serge...? Furthermore... what waz zis Serge? A figure, a shape? A spirit? A soul? Where waz zis Serge?
For the most part, I think this is Harle just taunting Serge. Since he arrived in Another World, he had been protesting that he was Serge, and in reality, he wasn't. He was a Serge, but in Another World Serge was long dead. Now Harle is making fun of him because he's still saying he's Serge, and she's kind of saying, "but are you really?" Has he ever really been Serge? After all, the real Serge was supposed to die.
I think the "mind control" over Kid must have something to do with this. Serge "becoming Lynx," so to speak, was the first real substance Another World gave him, and maybe he was even beginning to wonder if he was Serge. It's not like anyone in Another World gave him any validation up to that point in the game. In fact, he garners more acceptance from the demi-humans as Lynx. It isn't until near the end of the game that he starts learning more about himself and who he really is. Maybe that's why Harle finally starts calling him "Serge."
Not that a simple mind control spell seems out of Lynx's realm of power, but it's just to easy a solution for me. I like to think of it as, no one really knew Serge. He didn't exist in that world; his companions were following a ghost. So if someone shows up looking like Serge, even he is acting weirder than when they first met him, who are a group of people who just met him to claim that this isn't the person Serge was all along?
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I don't follow your reasoning... You're saying Kid wouldn't know because she didn't know who Serge was to begin with? I think they know quite a lot about his character... And Serge stabbing Kid and talking about how he'll send her to see Lucca, whose name she never mentioned to Serge... Sorry, that's too far fetched imo. Serge may have had no place in Another World, but that doesn't mean he has no substance or that he's a ghost. He's still a guy of flesh and blood but simply in a place where he doesn't belong.
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It is far-fetched. Actually, I didn't think anyone would respond; it's just how I think of the situation in my head. I don't really think that's what the game is trying to convey. I, personally, just don't like the idea of a mind-control spell. Even though I'm sure that's what it is.
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Another strange thing about this by the way
If you lose the battle against your party as Lynx, after Dark Serge stabs Kid, the third party member you had with you (in my case Guile) will say: "Serge... Why???". But after you get out of the Temporal Vortex that party member still won't recognize you as Serge even though he or she was present when he got Lynx's body. It's weird. Did Dark Serge erase their memories or something? You also don't see the party member in the scene where Karsh, Zoah, and Marcy enter the ritual room, which means he or she has to have gotten out of there pretty fast. This leads me to believe Dark Serge may have teleported him or her out of there.
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That doesn't mean he doesn't know Lynx is Serge.
Guile:
You are alive...!?
But that body of yours will
not return to normal, eh...
Unfortunately, I will not be
able to help you at this time...
Please understand.
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Woops, so he does know. Guess I overlooked that.
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But it's still strange he won't join you.
Please understand, understand what? Because Guile doesn't like cats?
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Hmm it's possible he has something else he needs to do. I wonder what the other characters tell you who you've previously recruited.
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Well, you can check the script.
[Kiki's House, Arni (Another)]
Mojo:
......?
What happened-om
to yoou?
My body will turn-om
into jelly if I doon't
start-om working out.
[The Dragon's Tail (Another)]
Guile:
You are alive...!?
But that body of yours will
not return to normal, eh...
Unfortunately, I will not be
able to help you at this time...
Please understand.
If you didn't recruit him before, IMO
Guile:
I feel that I might have met
you before...? Sorry, but
I cannot remember.
[Magical Dreamers Ship (Another)]
Nikki:
Serge....!!!
You made it out alive..?
I almost had to sing
a requiem for myself,
before I realized I
somehow made it out alive...
I still see and hear images
from that place in my dreams
all the time... Sorry man, I don't
want to go out for a while.
If you didn't recruit him before
Nikki:
Who are you?
[Shrine Area, Termina (Another)]
If you didn't recruit him before
Greco:
Who might you be...?
Strange... I sense that I
have felt your presence before.
Hmm, I can't remember...
Greco:
Serge....?
You got away safely!!!
I managed to escape from
the fort somehow and
worked my way back here.
But it's going to be a
while before I recover
enough to help you.
Forgive me, amigo...
[Glenn and Dario's House, Termina (Another)]
Glenn:
You are...!?
But that body of yours is not
going to return to normal...
I am sorry, but please leave.
I do not want to see that
face of yours for now.
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Wow, Glenn's response is heart warming :? Always knew he was an asshole. Anyway, very interesting. Most of them at least have a reason why they don't wanna come. Very interesting indeed.
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That's very interesting. Greco is the only one who seems to have a reasonable excuse. The others seem like they're avoiding him, like they've lost trust in Serge for the time being.
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Wow, Glenn's response is heart warming :? Always knew he was an asshole. Anyway, very interesting. Most of them at least have a reason why they don't wanna come. Very interesting indeed.
Yeah, he's quite honest.
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Why they can't be like Pip? The little guy rejoins Serge despite being Lynx, yet the others don't seem to want to be near him.
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That's another thing. Pip is okay with joining you; I thought it was because, while he's not a demi-human, is not human either, but Mojo isn't human, and he doesn't want to rejoin you either.
I'm thoroughly confused now. Clearly, Serge's companions recognize him, but because he looks like Lynx they snub him.
As for Kid, the only thing I can come up with is that if her amulet really does protect her from death, maybe that's why she follows Dark Serge around. Perhaps following Serge as Lynx would have gotten her killed since he does spend a lot of time around demi-humans during that period, and demi-humans aren't too keen on humans. Maybe it's the same for Serge's other companions, too. They feel joining him as Lynx would be dangerous, or maybe they just harbour a secret prejudice for demi-humans.
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That doesn't really bother me. If you think about it, it makes sense. If one of your friends suddenly transformed into the spitting image of Adolf Hitler, wouldn't you be a bit hesitant to start walking around with him? I'd at least tell him to shave the stache or something.
What I'd like to know is how the fuck Serge's skin got so dark after Lynx possessed his body. It looks like he's been hitting the tanning salons. Unfortunately, I can't seem to remember there being any.
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What I'd like to know is how the fuck Serge's skin got so dark after Lynx possessed his body. It looks like he's been hitting the tanning salons. Unfortunately, I can't seem to remember there being any.
Well, there's the hot tropical sun above the El Nido Islands... :picardno
Let's see, he's hanging around a scantily clad chick all the time, he has plenty of time to cause general mayhem since Serge/Lynx is outta the picture temporarily - so yeah, I'd be hittin' the beaches too to say the least.
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It kinda conflicts with his mugshot when you bump into him at both Fort Dragonia and Chronopolis. It shows him pale, but the model has him with dark skin. WTF?
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That doesn't really bother me. If you think about it, it makes sense. If one of your friends suddenly transformed into the spitting image of Adolf Hitler, wouldn't you be a bit hesitant to start walking around with him? I'd at least tell him to shave the stache or something.
Well, if I joined Serge, watched the whole Fort Dragonia events, and then he comes back to Another World in Lynx's body, I would have rejoined him. I know he is really Serge as having witness the whole thing, so why would I hesitate?
Although that is what I would do. I understand if they hesitate, but I still don't like that they do. At least, the ones who were with him in Fort Dragonia.
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You wouldn't know it was Serge, though. You're basing your view on what you would know as someone who knows what went down in there. For all they know, Serge did go bad, only Kid discovered the truth, and she got brainwashed into going with Lynx.
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You wouldn't know it was Serge, though. You're basing your view on what you would know as someone who knows what went down in there. For all they know, Serge did go bad, only Kid discovered the truth, and she got brainwashed into going with Lynx.
Actually, they did found out.
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:picardno
Answer me this. Why do they not recognize him when he comes for them after getting out of the Temporal Vortex with Sprigg and Harle?
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I haven't played that far, but there's certainly text in the game script for it.
Example:
Pierre:
You are Serge.
Oh, what have you done to
incur god's wrath, to be
transformed into a beast
with such poor fur...
Ohh, how can this be...
Yet there is nothing that
moi can do for you...
Oh, what a crying shame...
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WTF? Why don't they try to help him get his body back?
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That's why I don't like it. Only if they were in Fort Dragonia would they know he is really Serge. Yet, they won't help him. Only Pip rejoins, even if he wasn't in Fort Dragonia.
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What I'd like to know is how the fuck Serge's skin got so dark after Lynx possessed his body. It looks like he's been hitting the tanning salons. Unfortunately, I can't seem to remember there being any.
Well, there's the hot tropical sun above the El Nido Islands... :picardno
Serge has lived on El Nido all his life, and goes from pale to orange overnight after Lynx takes his body? Rubbish. Methinks those Beach Bums from Opassa Beach start up their own tanning salon, called...Beach Bum Tanning! It all makes sense now.
Keep your whining out of my posts, V_Translanka.
~The Black Wind
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Seriously, dude.
He was obviously joking. Not a very good joke, but still.
I think most of the other characters don't rejoin him as Lynx because a part of them doubts that it's really Serge. Some of the characters change their dialogue if you had taken them to Fort Dragonia. Korcha for example says that he won't rejoin Serge because he can't forget what happened back there just yet, and can't bear to look at him in that body.
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Simple explanation is game mechanics. Many characters weren't present during the body swap, so yeah it made sense that they wouldn't trust Serge walkin' around in Lynx's body. Now the characters that were present do know that Serge is trapped in Lynx's body now, but to individually make exceptions to the game script and allow them to be playable prior to Serge getting his real body back would be a pain in the ass.
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Simple explanation is game mechanics. Many characters weren't present during the body swap, so yeah it made sense that they wouldn't trust Serge walkin' around in Lynx's body. Now the characters that were present do know that Serge is trapped in Lynx's body now, but to individually make exceptions to the game script and allow them to be playable prior to Serge getting his real body back would be a pain in the ass.
I don't think that would be so difficult. As there is a variable to recognize that they were there at the Fort Dragonia incident, and play a different text based in it, they could just put in a event to reinsert that character into the party. So I think that the reasons were more plot-based, in that, besides the fact that they know who is really there, they can't put aside his appearance.
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I don't think that would be so difficult. As there is a variable to recognize that they were there at the Fort Dragonia incident, and play a different text based in it, they could just put in a event to reinsert that character into the party. So I think that the reasons were more plot-based, in that, besides the fact that they know who is really there, they can't put aside his appearance.
Maybe, but in addition to that I think the programmers wanted you to try out a bit of the other characters introduced in the second half. Many would just stick to whoever they used through Viper Manor and Fort Dragonia if they had the chance.
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Not entirely sure, since not everybody would rejoin you, just the ones who saw the whole thing in Fort Dragonia. One at least, three at maximun I think.
And you still have used the ones who join you for some time. And then you still have the time fighting the dragons and Home's Fort Dragonia.
And as a last thing, they wouldn't rejoin immediatly, you'll still have to find them and talk to them.
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Not entirely sure, since not everybody would rejoin you, just the ones who saw the whole thing in Fort Dragonia. One at least, three at maximun I think.
And you still have used the ones who join you for some time. And then you still have the time fighting the dragons and Home's Fort Dragonia.
And as a last thing, they wouldn't rejoin immediatly, you'll still have to find them and talk to them.
Two at maximum, actually, as the third spot would be Serge.
And before you could go back to another, you would get only two old members, and only if they joined AND were at fort Dragonia: Razzly and Home Poshul.
But that only something that we can dream about...
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Doesn't Glenn appears on the scene even if he is not in the current party? If he does, and he joined the party, then he would be the third. Need to comfirm this.
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He does not appear on the scene during the stabbing... I don't know when else he'd appear.
Anyway, I think I can explain the reason why the other party members chose not to join Serge (as Lynx) is because Lynx maybe a character to fear or dislike. Consider what he has done to El Nido. Lynx keeps on talking about enmity (hostility) between Serge and the world. This may have been a part of the enmity he was talking about: rejection and hostility from Serge's very own allies. He was also talking about his and Serge's reversal of roles. Like, Serge'll have to be Lynx for now.
Remember what Marge (Serge's mom) said: (inaccurate) There are people who will not judge you by your looks. Keep your head up.
I think it was merely because they judged Serge by his looks, even if he claims to be Serge, not Lynx.