Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Philosopher1701 on April 26, 2005, 09:17:03 am
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I know this might sound like something that doesn't really have any proof to it, but I think I might be on to something. I'm sure that all of you have discussed everything there is to know about any reference to Janus made in Chrono Cross, so I will focus on something that you might not have considered.
At the ending of Chrono Trigger, Magus decides to search for Schala. We never find out if he succeeds or not in Chrono Cross, but there is an interesting parallel. At the ending of Chrono Cross, Schala (Kid), tells Serge that she will be searching for him, and she will travel through time and the dimensions until she finds him. This seems to be reminiscent of Magus' search for Schala. It is possible that "who is searching for who" has been reversed. This would mean that Serge could actually (somehow) be Janus.
I'll let you all elaborate on this, because I am pressed for time, but I do want to point something out. Schala, as she was falling through the Gate that sent her to the Darkness Beyond Time, heard Serge crying from across time. She felt compelled to save him, so she created a clone of herself to watch over him. My question is: Would she have done that for anybody? Could she have heard other people crying, and wanted to help them, too? If Serge didn't have some personal connection to Schala, it seems unlikely that she would have gone through all of that trouble to save him. Unless, it was her brother.............................
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I've actually considered this as well. In my current fan-fic (really just a script for the Chrono game I'm creating), it explains how Janus is Serge.
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I... don't think so. Hmm, it is interesting, but there is no evidence that Serge is adopted. If Marge is Serge's biological mother than that idea is out the window.
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Impossible. The only Janus able to Time Travel right now would be Magus, because the Time Bastard theory requires all new version of a Time Traveler to be cast into the DBT. I don't think you really want me to go into the differences between Serge and Magus, do you?
Magus was supposed to be in CC, as Guile. But when they had a brain fart, and decided to go the mass-boring-character approach, they cut that back-story from him, because they felt it would make people obligated to use him.
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And, beyond that, from a character perspective, there is absolutely no connection between the two, not between Serge and the Magus from CT, or between Serge and the Magil from RD (who is slightly less rough and more formal.) It is true that both are more quiet, but Janus (pardon me, I call him this as per Lucca's convention in her letter to Kid) at least speaks. Moreover, Janus is dark, has little use for fools. Serge is quite the opposite. Also, build. Janus is a huge man, 6'0 at least (all right, not that big; I'm 6'1, and my little brother is 6'6, but comparitively to Serge he's big); Serge is only 5'8 or something like that. Serge is of average build, Janus is a powerful man.
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Impossible. The only Janus able to Time Travel right now would be Magus, because the Time Bastard theory requires all new version of a Time Traveler to be cast into the DBT.
Kid's pendant and Marle's pendant both coexist though, Kid's one didn't get erased.
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I forgot to point out that Schala said that when they find each other, they may not know that she is Schala and Serge is Serge. This could have infinite possibilities as to how this could happen and how they wouldn't recognize each other. Maybe this is a possibility as to why Serge doesn't know who he really is.
I have even considered that Serge could have been the product of something similar to Kid (like Project "Serge", with some connection to Janus), but I haven't figured out a way to explain how that could be possible. I think it is interesting, though, that the picture that is shown at the end does not reveal exactly who is standing next to Schala. I mean, if it Serge himself, why not just show that it is Serge and not give it a second thought? Why would the developers "hide" the person standing next to her?
I have also always looked at the Chrono series as the story of the Zeal family (because most of the significant events of the whole series ocurred in Zeal and had a direct connection to the Royal Family), so it would make sense that Serge would have some underlying connection with Schala.
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Impossible. The only Janus able to Time Travel right now would be Magus, because the Time Bastard theory requires all new version of a Time Traveler to be cast into the DBT.
Kid's pendant and Marle's pendant both coexist though, Kid's one didn't get erased.
I'm not sure that Marle and Kid's pendant are even the same. Were not even sure if Schala's pendant is the same as Marle's.
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While it's an interesting theory, and it sounds fun, I think I distinctly remember the hair of the man beside Schala being blonde, because you could see the side of his head... Right? Maybe my memory's fuzzy.
Anyway, on top of that, Serge grew up in Arni, and was born to Wazuki and Marge. Wazuki looked a lot like him - I think it's safe to say the man who gave up his life for Serge is his REAL father.
I don't see a possibility.
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In the picture? Wasn't the entire thing in monochromatic anyway?
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I've heard several other reasons suggesting the connection. For one, the fact that they both have blue hair, a rarity in the Chrono series, not to mention green eyes. Both also gain etremely powerful magic, and have powerful effect on history.
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Magus doesnt have green eyes... Janus does, but of all the pictures of Magus i've seen, his eye color has changed to red.
Serge doesnt have any magical ablities that he can use.
I see no similarities between Magus and Serge.
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I forgot to point out that Schala said that when they find each other, they may not know that she is Schala and Serge is Serge. This could have infinite possibilities as to how this could happen and how they wouldn't recognize each other. Maybe this is a possibility as to why Serge doesn't know who he really is.
I have even considered that Serge could have been the product of something similar to Kid (like Project "Serge", with some connection to Janus), but I haven't figured out a way to explain how that could be possible. I think it is interesting, though, that the picture that is shown at the end does not reveal exactly who is standing next to Schala. I mean, if it Serge himself, why not just show that it is Serge and not give it a second thought? Why would the developers "hide" the person standing next to her?
I have also always looked at the Chrono series as the story of the Zeal family (because most of the significant events of the whole series ocurred in Zeal and had a direct connection to the Royal Family), so it would make sense that Serge would have some underlying connection with Schala.
Perhaps, or yet Lavos' tale. He is, after all, the only thing that is fully constant through all its incarnations.
But anyway, it really is quite impossible that Serge is Janus, and the connections are really only superficial. As someone pointed out, it is beyond doubt known who was to be Janus, and that was Guile. If you've ever played Radical Dreamers, it shows the distinct characters of Magil/Janus, Kid/Schala, and Serge. However, for whatever reasons - time constraints, I believe - they opted to cut that out, and we were left with a Guile being simple a wandering magician. It is not inconceivable, however, to my mind, that if CB is ever made, they will come back and prove that Guile and Janus were one in the same - they just didn't have the chance in CC. There is, after all, nothing that disproves them being so. And we must all remember the elusive shadow on the ground if you take along Guile to Viper Manor when Luccia gives Kid the letter...
Anyway, it is true that Serge was part of a project, but it was of a different sort - he was the trigger to initiate project Kid or, rather, allow it to be. You see, the whole idea of the project was that Belthesar, perhaps seeing Schala still as his princess, and thus owing oaths of fealty to her, attempted by very complex means to effect her rescue: this was project Kid. Schala herself aided in it in the creating of Kid; Serge did so by splitting the dimensions, and through that forging the requisite Chrono Cross, the only means by which she could be saved.
As for Serge being something similar to Kid... well, it is very plain that he is indeed the son of Wazuki, and no fatherless clone, as is Kid.
Really, one must look at how much the possible differences outweigh the similarities, and then take into account what the gamemakers intended. Serge shares almost nothing with Janus. Their moods are different. Their builds are different. Their hair is even different, in all likelihood (well, Janus' is light blue, and Serge's dark blue; it is possible, as they likely both dye it - Janus does so for a certainty, according to the game - that their natural hair colour is both black, but that's speculation.) And, if truth be told, Serge, in build and style of fighting and all, is most similar to Crono. Do they not both share Luminaire and slash-type attacks, and bear an innate colour of white and heavenly sorcery? And as for maintaining that he must be Janus because she would not care for a stranger otherwise.. Schala was ever-compassionate, that much is plain even in Zeal. She was likely only moved to pity by his cries that echoed to the Tesseract, sort of a strange love-at-first-sight.
As for your first comment regarding Schala saying they might not know each other... that's just bringing in reincarnation, and a shlocky thing that the player might be the reincarnation of Serge into the whole thing. Remember the end video where Serge is searching through the dimensions, even across the modern world, our world, for Serge? That's all it is, and really has no connection to Janus whatsoever.
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Remember the end video where Serge is searching through the dimensions, even across the modern world, our world, for Serge? That's all it is, and really has no connection to Janus whatsoever.
WTF? Don't you mean Kid searching for Serge?
I myself had thought of this once I first played through CC.
So here are my views:
1) Time Bastard is still only a theory since there is no confermation of it being true. Though I must admit that GL is a genius :)
2) People have reason to believe that Marle's pendant is Schala's from the original timeline. Schala's pendant did run out the second time, so it probably did the first time too.
3) Serge, if he was Janus, could be a reincarnate of the original time lines Janus/Magus once he was (probably) destroyed once he summoned Lavos in 600AD. This would be nice because Janus never got to grow up in a good surrounding. So in this reincarnate, he is the person who he could never be. Happy, Habe blue hair instead of blonde (i suppose) etc. It's like Buu in DBZ. He gets reincarnated is Uub, a totally different person, different in character but still keeps his great power, but opposite to his destructive side. This could be why Serge has white innate and not black.
And another thing. Isn't Janus the Roman God of like past and future? And had two heads? Like when one door closes, another one opens. This colour resemble Janus' life. If he was reincarnated, thats like another door opening once the other one had closed.
But then again, Janus is Jaki in th Japanese version meaning "Dark energy"... But in the Japanese version of CC, did Lucca refer to Janus as "Jaki" in the letter? That would sound really screwed when shes trying to make the letter seem warm, by having "Dark energy" written all over the letter. Lol.
Now on the side notes:
Belthasar did seem pretty helpful to Serge? What a perfect oppertunity it would be for Janus reincarnate to help out his sister :P
Also, when you do the Ozzie,Flea and Slash sidequest, does Ozzie say anything about Serge? I need to do that part :P
Enough rambling now ^.^;
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heh, the Time Bastard Theory is just a theory, but it a very well though out one.
In CT, people in Zeal at first mistake Marle's pendant for Schala's, but when they look harder, the acknowledge its different. Plus, Marle's pendant never did the thing's that Schala's pendant did for Kid.
Serge cannot be Janus reincaranted because of their innate color. Serge is white. Janus would be Black.
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WTF? Don't you mean Kid searching for Serge
Just a typo. Don't mind it too greatly.
And another thing. Isn't Janus the Roman God of like past and future? And had two heads? Like when one door closes, another one opens. This colour resemble Janus' life. If he was reincarnated, thats like another door opening once the other one had closed.
One closes, another opens, exactly. Not a god of past and future but, as I said, one of change, of doorways, etc. The gods of past and future would have been whatever equivalent the Romans had for the Fates - I cannot now remember what that might be, though. The Hellenes had Clotho, Lachiseis, and Atropos, but I cannot remember what the Romans did. Perhaps they just borrowed them. They did that often enough, after all.
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Serge cannot be Janus reincaranted because of their innate color. Serge is white. Janus would be Black.
How can you assume that? A reincarnation isn't a direct link of the previous character -- Janus was more of a black-innate type. Serge's personality, however, was more "white." If Serge was Janus, then of course, he's have to be a black innate. However, since we're talking about a reincarnated form, that doesn't even apply.
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Magus was Shadow element. Shadow element would be black color. elements (colors) dont change based on personality. When Serge is Lynx, Lynx is still black color, even though Serge is not evil.
a reincarantion would have the same soul, thus, the same innate color. It shows what sort of magic they would be most able with.
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Although I don't believe Serge is Magus for many reasons...I have to say that just because your CT Magic is one thing (Fire, Water, Lightning, Shadow), that doesn't mean that it will take on a corresponding CC Element Innate...Mainly because the two systems are different and based on different principles.
For one, it's clearly stated that Serge is from Arni. It's in his bio thingy bopper. Magus is from Zeal. End of story to me. Anything else just seems too rediculously far-stretched (not to mention has no concrete basis) to even want to believe...
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Just if anyone acctually bothered to read my post, they'd realise what I was on about the Serge/Janus innate thing >.>
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your post referenced DBZ, and the situation was different with the Buu-Uub situation. Uub wasn't a simple reincarnation, he was Buu born good and human. I think thats what Goku's wish was, more or less. And the power and such in DBZ isn't based on one's mental state. Everyone uses the same type of energy, they just use it differently, in different amounts.
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i would like to point out what the bottom of Serge's gravestone says in Another World:
"What came from the sea
Has returned from the sea"
Is it ever stated as a fact that Serge is Marge and Wazuki's real child? The gravestone does seem to point to Serge's being found washed up on the shore. I don't think this necessarily makes Serge's being Janus any more possible, since Janus' somehow showing up as a baby (or at least under the age of 5, since i think Serge gets bitten 2 years before Wazuki tries to drown him, and he dies at the age of 7) in El Nido is also just as farfetched.
Maybe serge was found around the time of Porre's conquering Gaurdia, and that for some reason a resident of Gaurdia sent his/her child to the sea for protection (Moses?), which also makes a good metaphor (Moses' splitting the water, Serge's splitting time..?)
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Shadow_Dragon where it says
"what came from the sea has returned to the sea"
it is talking about life one of the villagers in Anri makes this clear i is also mentioned in fort dragonia when your returning Serge to his original form it is said by the pictures on the wall thing there that all life cam from the sea so really what the grave stone is saying is that the life that came from the sea has returned to the sea. its not implying that serge was found on the beach plus its stated numerous times that Wazuki is Serge's father.
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can you find exactly what the villager says?
Fisherman: Zzz…Zzzzz…Hwaah!!! The tranquil sound of the waves does it to me every time. It makes me so sleepy. I bet the lullaby we heard in our mothers’ wombs was kinda like this. One day, we will all return to the Mother Sea…Embraced by her lullaby…
Fisherman: In due course, your time will also come to return to the sea, young man…
is that what you're referring to?
i think that the fisherman is referring to a normal life (and a normal, natural, death), not being drowned. However, Serge didn't simply die of a natural cause, he was physically returned to the sea, so I think something needs to balance it out, Serge's actually coming from the sea..
But the pictures and stuff refer to evolution, and unless the entire race reverts back to fish, i don't think the analogy holds
And although Wazuki and Marge are said to be Serge's parents constantly, is there any evidence that would go against their finding Serge as a baby and raising him as if he were their child? And, of course, no one in the village (if they knew), including Marge, would want to tell Serge since it would devasate him
I really wanna see a pic of Wazuki, to see if he really does resemble Serge; does anyone know where I can find one?
edit: I was trying to say this before, but I couldn't find words for it:
The language of the gravestone, to me, definitely makes it seem like he was found; "What came from the sea", 'what' makes it seem like, literally or in w/e analogy it's using, not everyone comes from the sea and that Serge was special. It had to make a big deal that Serge came from the sea, when, if it's the analogy of which the fisherman speaks or which the thing at Fort Dragonia tells, then everyone would've come from the sea, and saying 'what came from the sea' would be unneeded, meaning that it can only be there to specifically mean something else.
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why do you keep putting forth crazy theories with little to no backing? his grave stone means nothing. life in Arni village was tied to the sea. CC says that life came from the sea. you read too much into it. if Marge wasnt his real mother, then why would she die from grief after Serge dies in Another? Not to say adoptive parents dont love their kids, but I can garantee you that its not the same as flesh and blood kids.
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The grave stone DOES mean something, and although I don't fully believe that Serge was found instead of born by Marge/Wazuki, I don't think that they would've put those two lines into the gravestone if they didn't want the player to think of it at the back of their mind, but without sufficient evidence pointing to one direction I'm not going to choose a side
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ah so thats what you meant shadow dragon
i was just trying to disclaim the serge coming from the sea thing the whole life thing i probally took too far but since that is what the villagers talk about and such they meant that on the grave stone not that serge came from the sea
and wazuki does look like serge
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I agree that the sea thing is merely a product of Arni's being tied in with the sea, but isn't there a better way to phrase it without making Serge seem special?
Maybe, although I don't remember it, I thought that Serge was adopted when I first saw the gravestone, so I can't get the idea out of my head and am thinking illogically because of it
Besides the scene where Miguel talks about his and Wazuki's coming to Chronopolis, are there any other scenes that show Wazuki? I've already passed that scene (and I didn't care to notice) in my replay, and I don't wanna have to go through the game again to see him
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(http://www.rpgplanet.com/chrono/images/cc/icon-73.gif) (http://www.rpgplanet.com/chrono/images/cc/icon-01.gif)
Very much alike, indeed. That thing upon the stone is a simple epitaph; they are written in that style, sometimes. I think everyone that has said that it is because of Arni's close connection with the sea is right on. These are a sea-people. They probably worship a sea-god. They probably see their children as coming, in some manner, from the sea. The Greeks, I think, thought that all children came of Gaia, and touched the children to the earth when they were born in respect. It is no different here, and I don't think there was any alterior motive at all.
I really think that arguing that Serge is in ANY way Janus is absurd, really. The game-maker himself has said that this was meant to be Guile, but it was cut. There is, in fact, nothing at all connecting Serge to Janus. Kid's affection to him is certainly not brotherly, as it would be for Janus; it is meant to be a love story (though, personally, I don't think Serge should betray Leena so lightly, but that's another matter entirely...) Serge and Janus probably both have black hair, but that's just speculation; for the time being we can say that one has dark blue, and the other pale blue hair. They act in absolutely different manners, have different ways of dealing with things, and are of different body types. Really, if Serge is Janus he has been changed in character so much he has ceased to actually BE Janus, and thus no matter which way one looks at it, he is Serge and distinct from that child of Zeal.
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Wow, Wazuki in the pic looks like Janus :D
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Just because the game makers deny something, that doesn't mean that they could've put what they denied into the video game subconsciously... however, I don't think this is the case with Serge/Janus, since, besides Kid's obsession with Serge, there's no evidence (and I've given up my theory of Serge's being found).
I think that Serge is actually the opposite of Janus... I think that Janus wouldn't want Schala to move on and find other people and selfishly would want her to only have feelings for him... I dunno if that made sense, but I get annoyed when my sister would rather spend her time while she's home with her fiance than me (she goes to college with him)
By the way, what happened to Wazuki in Home World? Fate no longer existed, so did Wazuki never turn into Lynx? I forget if he turned into Lynx before or after drowning Serge
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He turned into Lynx in both worlds, I believe. the Sea of Eden was turned into the dead sea after Lynx's point of creation was.
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Yeah, he became Lynx, and ended up taking the entire Acacia Dragoon Outfit into the Dead Sea to become frozen in time. The prevailing theory is that since Chronopolis lost control over Home World, it wanted to eliminate the most volatile forces that could change history, and thus directed Home Lynx to get them out of the picture.
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that makes sense, but then what became of Lynx? and of Kid, for that matter... Lynx must've attacked the orphanage sometime after the dimensional split, or else he wouldn't have been Lynx, so did he do it in both worlds?
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not sure about Kid, but you see the frozen images of Lynx and the Dragoons in the Dead Sea.
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not sure about Kid, but you see the frozen images of Lynx and the Dragoons in the Dead Sea.
Really? I don't remember seeing Lynx.
As for Home Kid, I believe Masato Kato said somewhere she's hanging around in Zenan. Someone in Arni also mentions the Radical Dreamers I think (maybe it's in Another World though, I don't remember).
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i know the dragoons are there, but i might be wrong about Lynx.
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Yeah, I never saw Lynx there either.
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not sure about Kid, but you see the frozen images of Lynx and the Dragoons in the Dead Sea.
Really? I don't remember seeing Lynx.
As for Home Kid, I believe Masato Kato said somewhere she's hanging around in Zenan. Someone in Arni also mentions the Radical Dreamers I think (maybe it's in Another World though, I don't remember).
I always thought that they were just paranoid of the Radical Dreamers (like they were against Dark Serge), and thought it was some eleborate organization when it was just Kid.. but it could be that, in Home World, Kid actually has a large following of Radical Dreamers
So what happened to Lynx in Home World after he told the Dragoons to go to the Dead Sea and hinted to the Porreans about the Frozen Flame?
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I want to point out that in the secret room in Kajar in Chrono Trigger, the book lying on the table (supposedly written by Belthasar) states:
"All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.
That is the truth....
That is my belief....
At least for now...."
I remember reading the article at this site titled "The Secret of Nu", and somebody said that in Egyptian and ancient Greek, Nu was supposed to mean water. If this is true, then it seems that Chrono Cross has continued this statement from Chrono Trigger. Maybe there is more of an importance to that book than we realize.
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i wish whoever came up with the translation (or if it's the same sound in japanese, then whoever first wrote it) of Nu, because it can mean new in dutch, naked in french, and water in ancient egyptian/greek if what philosopher heard was true
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He heard wrong. I checked it out on Encyclopedia Mythica, and Nu is indeed an ancient water-deity. However, due to its obscurity, I would wager that it has absolutely no connection to those in Chrono Trigger. What he heard wrong is that it is Greek for water. I checked it up in the Liddel and Scott Lexicon, and nu (vu) appears to be a variant on the second case form of vuv, which is an adverb basically equivalent to our 'then' or 'thereafter.'
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Oh, darn. These will be good notes for the revision of that article.
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Nu is also Yiddish for "so" (as in So?) although that is clearly not the definition most applicable to C.T.
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Oh, darn. These will be good notes for the revision of that article.
Well, if you ever need to look up anything ancient Greek, the Liddell and Scott Lexicon is really good, although one would need to know the Greek alphabet. Most people don't have one, but fortunately there's a wonderful site, perseus or something to that effect (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/enggreek?lang=greek is the English to Greek translator), that has the entire Lexicon in its database, and you can cross reference words to usage and all that. Very nice site, and it can answer any question about an ancient Greek word, I should think.
As for the meaning of 'nu'... it's two letters. There are 21 consonants and 5 vowels in the English language. That makes for a total of 105 (210 if you reverse them) different vowel-consonant combonations. Not that many. Truly, I think it's just jibberish that the writer took a liking to. 'Rohan' in Lord of the Rings is the name of a French noble family - Tolkien just liked the word and borrowed it. Even he, who so often has thinly veiled allusions in his names (ie. Atalantë) uses names that have no further meaning. I don't think it far-fetched here.
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'then' or 'thereafter.'
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu.
"Then and thereafter." :)
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No, it means the direct occurance of one event after another. Nothing whatsoever with beginning and ending.
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I just remembered something.
Schala gave Janus an amulet.
Kid gave Serge the Astral Amulet.
:) 8)
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That really means absolutely nothing, and is but a grasping at straws. Glenn and Glenn share the same name, but they aren't connected at all, for example. Serge is not Janus, and that is truth. This has been proven through the course of this factually, and it is misguided to continue, I think.
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I just remembered something.
Schala gave Janus an amulet.
Kid gave Serge the Astral Amulet.
:) 8)
Except that Janus' amulet is an actual amulet and Serge's "Astral Amulet" is just a Medicine Bag (according to the original Japanese version).
And Serge already wears some kind of amulet around his neck, but it doesn't play any role in the game.
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Is that thing around Magus' neck the amulet that Schala gave him?
I haven't seen Serge's original amulet, but it does seem coincidental that he'd already have one (it could be the one Schala gave Janus...) since the game doesn't really overlook amulets and makes them seem really important
Then again, I don't really thinks that this means Serge is Janus, but it shouldn't be ignored completely
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Yes, it should be. Magus has an amulet on his left leg, too, but that means nothing, either. The fact that two characters wear an amulet isn't all that odd, especially when one is an optional character, and another the main one. Moreoever, it may be intended that the amulet Serge has is the shark-tooth given to him near the beginning. Regardless, I highly doubt what he wears is the work of old Zeal.
Why are we even arguing this anymore? There is no connection, the evidence proves it. This is like arguing that Tolkien based LOTR on WWII or that Legolas' hair colour is gold. Both are by evidence false, yet people still seem to argue for them...
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Legolas' hair color...?
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Well, yes. It's one of the big issues of Tolkien debate, or so I've heard. There are these people that insist its golden (ie. blond, but I hate that word.) I'm not exactly sure where they get that idea or their evidence from, really...
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Serge's deal just looks like a necklace made of leather string that's tied funny...I don't think it looks like an Amulet...Plus, we've already seen what Magus' Amulet looks like, it's the little silvery metal thing hanging from his side on the pics of him.
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They probably just refer to the movies. Legolas was blonde there, but i forget what color his hair was in the books.
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It's traditional to make it gold. LOTR artists have been doing it since the books came out, likely because, to their minds, Elves have fair hair. However, it never actually says what the colour of his hair is, which is what left open the debate. What answers it with 99% surety is the Silimarillion. You see, Thranduil of Mirkwood, Legolas' father, is almost surely a Grey Elf... just checked and the Silmarillion says he's a Sindarin, ie. Grey Elf. This means beyond doubt that he is one of the Teleri. Now, there were three major groups of Elves: Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri. Of these, only the Vanyar had golden hair, and all of these went West 20,000 years before Lord of the Rings. The reason some like Galadriel have golden hair, even though she is a Noldorin Elf, is that her father, a prince of the Noldor, had Indis of the Vanyar as a mother. But that's a rare thing, and only a few like Glorfindel and she have such light hair. But that's the Noldor; they were in the West with the Vanyar. The Sindarin Grey Elves, a subgroup of the Teleri, remained in the East. Thus unless some gold-haired children were born to them before this sundering, or unless Thranduil or his kin married into a golden haired house (both greatly unlikely), Legolas must have dark hair, as a Sindarin Grey Elf.
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I think someone mentioned it a little while ago, but I took it as a joke; Magus equips a scythe with shadow magic, and Wazuki/Lynx equips a scythe with black-innate... interesting to think about
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I dont remmber Thranduil in the Silimarillion, although there were alot of people in there. I figured Legolas was Sindarian though. And I don't remmber that the Vanyar were the only ones with Golden hair... Meh, I need to go re-read that book.
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He was mentioned off-hand in the 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age' segment. The index, however, names him a Sindarin Elf. Probably, like Celeborn, a lord of the court of Thingol of Doriath.
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Wow.
We are discussing Tolkien's mythology in a thread about a theory at Chrono Compendium.
Who would have thought? :) 8)
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Christianity and Judaism have a story about how God made man from the dust of the ground. Because of this, "Dust to dust" is a commonly heard at funerals.
Arni village talks about life coming from the sea. It seems to me that "What came from the sea has returned to the sea", or whatever the varian on that was, is simply another form of dust to dust.
Someone said they think serge is Janus. Someone else refuted that. Then it was said he's Janus reincarnated. Someone pointed out that the innate is completely wrong for that. Then it was said that that wouldn't matter if he were reincarnated...
That argument is entirely circular. it states that He's Janus simply because that would be nifty, and that anythig contradcting that in the story doesnt mater because its a reincarnation so he can be very different... but then why should he be consitered Janus? It doesnt work if every point denying the possibility is thrown away but every point affirming it (blue hair and an amulet) is accepted as evidence.
(I'm not attacking anyone here. It just seems like the argument is a bit falacious.)
IF it was Janus reincarnated, its with more than enough differences for him to be an entirely diferent person and therefor, from a practical standpoint, the speculation seems like pointless complication.
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Christianity and Judaism have a story about how God made man from the dust of the ground. Because of this, "Dust to dust" is a commonly heard at funerals.
Arni village talks about life coming from the sea. It seems to me that "What came from the sea has returned to the sea", or whatever the varian on that was, is simply another form of dust to dust.
Exactly right. People tend to connect things in such ways. The reason the Judeo-Christian traditions follow Man being created from dust is that in the Enuma-Elish, the creation account of Babylonia, the high god Marduk defeats the godess of chaos, Tiamat, and her battle-commander Qingu. The victorious gods set the defeated gods to work digging irrigation, but to alleivate this work, the gods take the blood of Qingu, mingle it with earth, and create Man, to fulfill this task of digging so that crops may grow. Plants growing from irrigated mud and dust was extremely important in that culture - thus, I think, people connected their origins with coming from the fertilized earth. Floods and excess of water were a fear, however, thus the godess of chaos is Tiamat, the personification of the underwater ancient seas. Further west in Egypt, the water of the Nile and its flooding, however, was seen as a symbol of life. People that live directly on the sea and depend on it no doubt see it as their life... contrast to those from inland who would be in great fear of it and see it as death. Anyway, as you said, this is likely just showing Arni's connection with the sea.
Oh, and as for the Tolkien thing... most of modern fantasy, and certainly its existance in its current form, owes itself to Tolkien. It is the pillar upon which the foundations stand, and the form from which most else of that type is derived, however loosely. More than that, however, he brough fantasy from out of the realms of child-tales, and allowed it to be commonly accepted. Thus to speak of Tolkien in this is to look at the basic fantasy archetype, which I think is permissable.
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Good point, Daggart! 8)
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Well, does anybody see any real potential in this theory?
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You mean the theory that Serge is Janus? No, it takes way to much assuming, and disregarding.
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I have just always felt that Serge was supposed to be a much more important character than the way he was presented.
It seems to me that the script suggests that he has a personal connection with Kid/Schala.
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That can kind of depend somewhat, depending on how exactly you deal with the problems regarding Kid (from the poisoning to recruiting her).
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Here is an idea that is somewhat farfetched:
Janus: One among you will shortly perish.
Janus predicted the death of Crono.
Serge "predicted" his murdering of Kid.
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Here is an idea that is somewhat farfetched:
Janus: One among you will shortly perish.
Janus predicted the death of Crono.
Serge "predicted" his murdering of Kid.
You must be joking. Premonitions are hardly a unique circumstance! True, Serge has some foresight, as does the child-prince Janus, but the ability to read and feel omens being a commonality is hardly grounds for them being the same.
Can this theory not simply die once disproven? The fact of the matter is simply this: Serge looks different, thus his bone structure and DNA is inherently different. On the physical side, they are surely not the same. Likewise, mentally: Janus is swift to angry speech, Serge is silent and compassionate. The only caring Janus shows is for his sister, whereas Serge cares for everyone in his group and, indeed, if the path goes differently, spurns her company upon first meeting. If he was truly Janus, and had any trace of such a mindset, that is not a very caring or brotherly way to act, considering they had been seperated by millennia. Thus their emotions differ as well. So what then remains? The soul? Perhaps, but nothing can be proven either way for, if the soul does not make its presence apparent, neither then would it have any influence on their caring for Schala, thus it may be discounted.
So there we have it, and I hope finally. Even if Serge WERE Janus, he is so changed that he is inherently a different person, and his caring for Schala is no different than that which any other would give to her, had they known her as well as he did. In fact, his love of her is far more amorous, and if he is truly her brother, that would be a strange thing. If Serge is Janus, Janus is dead. But to even assume this, one must raise only the loosest connections possible. And are we not forgetting Guile in this? Yes, there was an intent for someone to be Janus: Guile. Why then would they, if they lacked the time to tell his story, covertly mean another to be Janus? It is quite the absurd stretch.
It's as simple as that.
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They decided not to make Guile Janus because that would have made Guile too imporant not to have in your party.
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I was under the impression that in the interview they decided to cut it for reasons of space and time: they really didn't have the resources to add another such an important character.
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Well, here is the question conserning it.
Is there any connection between Guile in CC and Magus in CT? Both use black magic, have purple hair, and float. The only difference that I can tell is their dress and the fact that Guile uses a staff. I was thinking that they could both be different adult versions of Janus (from CT). Of course, it's been a while since playing CC, so I could be totally wrong. There are some other character connections (I.E. Frog and Glenn) but Guile and Magus raises the most questions. Thanks for the great game.
Masato Kato: To let the cat out of the bag, in the early stages of development, Guile was indeed meant to be Magus. In our original plan, the true identity of Guile was supposed to be Magus after the events in Trigger. (At the end of Trigger, Magus [a.k.a. Janus in Trigger and Magil in Radical Dreamers] disappeared into a Time Gate to go searching for his big sister, Schala, who was lost somewhere in time.) However, as the game's development progressed and we decided to use such a huge number of playable characters, we decided not to make him be Magus. We thought it was impossible to portray the relationship between Magus and Schala adequately in this game. So we changed tracks, made the colors of the Magus character design paler, and turned him into Guile, the magician. In a way, it's a pity, as I really would like to have seen the valiant figure of Magus come to life again.
I've been flamed to much on GameFAQs for arguing this a proof of the mass character approach hurting development of at least one character. Its really annoying when you have explicit proof like that, and people still flame you and call you a fanboy.
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Alright, my memory must have been messing with me. Thanks for clearing that up.
On a side note, it's always interesting to see that, and how he refers to Janus as a valiant figure. Too often, I think, his dark and gloomy side overshadows this. Perhaps the intent really was that he was redeemed after CT - RD seems to show a stern and shadowy, yet not evil, character... and Guile himself, though not Janus, does have enigmatic but not evil ways about him.
On a further sidenote, I'm not sure how anyone could really brand you as a fanboy for maintaining that. Strange people...
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Its because I think a ton of CC suffers from characters that suffer from lack of development, and many of them could be done away with. And that I think CT is better. I don't really take those guys seriously anymore though. Anyway, I don't want to bring that over here.
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Here is an idea that is somewhat farfetched:
Janus: One among you will shortly perish.
Janus predicted the death of Crono.
Serge "predicted" his murdering of Kid.
You must be joking. Premonitions are hardly a unique circumstance! True, Serge has some foresight, as does the child-prince Janus, but the ability to read and feel omens being a commonality is hardly grounds for them being the same.
Can this theory not simply die once disproven? The fact of the matter is simply this: Serge looks different, thus his bone structure and DNA is inherently different. On the physical side, they are surely not the same. Likewise, mentally: Janus is swift to angry speech, Serge is silent and compassionate. The only caring Janus shows is for his sister, whereas Serge cares for everyone in his group and, indeed, if the path goes differently, spurns her company upon first meeting. If he was truly Janus, and had any trace of such a mindset, that is not a very caring or brotherly way to act, considering they had been seperated by millennia. Thus their emotions differ as well. So what then remains? The soul? Perhaps, but nothing can be proven either way for, if the soul does not make its presence apparent, neither then would it have any influence on their caring for Schala, thus it may be discounted.
So there we have it, and I hope finally. Even if Serge WERE Janus, he is so changed that he is inherently a different person, and his caring for Schala is no different than that which any other would give to her, had they known her as well as he did. In fact, his love of her is far more amorous, and if he is truly her brother, that would be a strange thing. If Serge is Janus, Janus is dead. But to even assume this, one must raise only the loosest connections possible. And are we not forgetting Guile in this? Yes, there was an intent for someone to be Janus: Guile. Why then would they, if they lacked the time to tell his story, covertly mean another to be Janus? It is quite the absurd stretch.
It's as simple as that.
I said that it was a farfetched idea. :wink:
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One thing I've noticed is how people in this thread keep saying that Magus and Serge are far too different to be the same person. Personally, I've never even thought of this possibility before, and really don't intend to persue it anymore than I will here.. But I must say some things before I forget.
If Serge was a clone, reincarnation or whatever of Janus then it should be obvious why they differ so much. First off, both were raised in different time periods under different circumstances. Janus was raised as a prince for the first half of his life, and lost the only person he held dear. Serge on the otherhand was raised entirely differently as the son of what? A simple fisherman? Eitherway, this would easily explain the differences in personality. Secondly, the source of their magic itself.. If I remember right.. [ And please do correct me if I'm wrong. ] Zealians seemed to have come to rely on Lavos's power. Therefore I'm assumeing that in a way, Magus and all Zealians drew their power from Lavos in a way. Perhaps if Magus hadn't been drawing from this source he may have had a different innate. Or perhaps magic is based on ones personality itself and therefore through the different upbringings they were able to have two seperate types of magic.
Anyways, just to make this clear, I do NOT support this theory at all, however I do think its a bit interesting and wanted to put my two cents into it.
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There is a difference between Innate Magic, and Lavos Magic. The people of Zeal used their magic via the Mamon Machine, and thus Lavos Magic. Without the Mamon Machine, the people of Zeal lost their Lavos Magic. Magus has no need of the Mamon Machine to use his magic. We know that innate colors are not decided by personality, because when Serge becomes Lynx, Serge/Lynx is still Black Color.
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We know that innate colors are not decided by personality, because when Serge becomes Lynx, Serge/Lynx is still Black Color.
But when Lynx becomes Serge, Dark Serge is also black. What gives?
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Hmm...That seems like something that needs it's own thread...Almost plot-holish if I do say so myself...
Perhaps, uh...You can gradually change your Innate? Or it can change? Perhaps in a way like Pip changes it's Innate?
No idea...
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SilentMartyr said
I... don't think so. Hmm, it is interesting, but there is no evidence that Serge is adopted. If Marge is Serge's biological mother than that idea is out the window.
I agree with this because there is no proof that Serge is adopted, and it is stated that he was born to Marge and Wazuki. There are many characters in the game that make references to these people as Serge's parents, such as Leena, Miguel, and Marge herself. Janus's mother would be Queen Zeal, if he was really Schala's brother, and nothing ever hints that Serge and Queen Zeal are related. In addition, if Serge is Janus, then wouldn't he also be Magus? If Kid is really Schala, and Serge is Janus wouldn't it be kind of weird that neither of them knew who the other was? Though it is an interesting theory, there isn't enough evidence to prove Serge is Janus.
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OMG,
With this theory, ISN'T IT HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT MAGUS DIED AND HE WAS REBORN INTO SERGE! It isn't that hard to understand.
Even if Marge and Wazuki are his parents, it doesn't mean he can't be a reincarnation of anything. Like my past reference to Buu in DBZ. He was wished and reincarnated into a kid called Uub, but some of his power he kept.
Magus had powers to predict or foretell death, right? So did Serge. Theres one thing down. They both have blue hair.. Okay.. Both have something to do with Schala or Kid....
Also, if you're reincarnated, you won't turn out the same way. Like they say, a child i based 25% on their parent and 75% on their environment. If Serge is Janus, then we see that he grew up as a nobody with a peaceful life, away from magic and something controlling what he does. Even though FATE controls people, it just puts an idea into their mind.
I won't go any farther, but you can see that it's possible that Serge was based on Magus, but not him.
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OMG,
With this theory, ISN'T IT HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT MAGUS DIED AND HE WAS REBORN INTO SERGE! It isn't that hard to understand.
Even if Marge and Wazuki are his parents, it doesn't mean he can't be a reincarnation of anything. Like my past reference to Buu in DBZ. He was wished and reincarnated into a kid called Uub, but some of his power he kept.
Magus had powers to predict or foretell death, right? So did Serge. Theres one thing down. They both have blue hair.. Okay.. Both have something to do with Schala or Kid....
Also, if you're reincarnated, you won't turn out the same way. Like they say, a child i based 25% on their parent and 75% on their environment. If Serge is Janus, then we see that he grew up as a nobody with a peaceful life, away from magic and something controlling what he does. Even though FATE controls people, it just puts an idea into their mind.
I won't go any farther, but you can see that it's possible that Serge was based on Magus, but not him.
Whoa there sunshine, no need to yell. Firstly, how and why did Magus die? There is nothing to argue that. Secondly, he couldn't predict who was going to die, he could just sense and understand what the black wind is. He didn't say that Crono was going to die, he said one of them was going to die. So again, Segre based on Magus is a big no.
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What I find rather amusing is the fact that even if Serge = Janus, it doesn't do a thing what do we care if he's Magus reincarneted he has no point in common with Janus and why if MAGUS died it would be JANUS that reincarned? (I'm talking about personality now)
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Well, unless Magus mastered time travel which I can't remember if it said he appeared to Lucca and handed her the letter or not... [ Could be like Back to the Future where he sent a letter to a place he knew Lucca would be. Or left it somewhere she would find. ] Then he most likely would of died a long long time ago. However, if he can time travel then well.. Its doubtfull he died sime time seems to move equally no matter what time it is. It could be the past and a minute passes but in the future that same minute will pass. >>; So basically what I'm sayin is he wouldn't die from old age then. As for the blue hair.. O.o Well wasn't it said that they dye their hair? IT could be natural for Serge.. Maybe even Janus for whatever reason.
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Magus didn't hand Lucca any letter... Lucca wrote it, and in case Kid had meet up with 'Janus', she wanted to say 'Hello.'
As far as we know, Magus is in some time period, looking for Schala.
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The dyed hair line is no more than myth.
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The dyed hair line is no more than myth.
I was under the impression it existed in the original Japanese.
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Oh? I thought the Compendium never figured out where it came from...
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If it wasn't for Schala's hair being blonde in Cross there would have never been an arguemnt.
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If I recall, the dyed hair thing was one of the first questions proposed when this whole community was little more than a few threads at OCR.
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We know that innate colors are not decided by personality, because when Serge becomes Lynx, Serge/Lynx is still Black Color.
But when Lynx becomes Serge, Dark Serge is also black. What gives?
Lynx is a biological interface of FATE, which is black innate.
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Still, the fact remains that Serge changed innates while Lynx didn't.
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Maybe Lynx did something afterwards to change it artifically? If I recall correctly, right after Serge first becomes Lynx, and your fight the Lynx-as-Serge, Kid, and whoever, Lynx-as-Serge was white. Or maybe I'm not remmbering right.
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Doesnt Bunyip also change innates? First he is like red or something and then he becomes a black after transformation.
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Maybe Lynx did something afterwards to change it artifically? If I recall correctly, right after Serge first becomes Lynx, and your fight the Lynx-as-Serge, Kid, and whoever, Lynx-as-Serge was white. Or maybe I'm not remmbering right.
No, you're right. Good catch.
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I think that Lynk-as-Serge kept his element too, he even had his INNATE element (bash & dash) if I remeber correctly
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Lynx-as-Serge (Lynx in Serge's body) was white element, just like Serge, with Serge's techs (I think), and Serge-as-Lynx (Serge in Lynx's body) was black, with Lynx's techs.
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Lynx-as-Serge (Lynx in Serge's body) was white element, just like Serge, with Serge's techs (I think), and Serge-as-Lynx (Serge in Lynx's body) was black, with Lynx's techs.
but later on Lynx-as-Serge is black with Lynk's tech (that I'm sure)
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Thats why I said he must have artifically changed it somehow.
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Thats why I said he must have artifically changed it somehow.
Maybe, as an agent of FATE, Lynx-as-Serge can still morph himself (using the Records of FATE?) like when Wazuki changed himself into a panther Demi-Human. The original Wazuki might also not have been Black innate.
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I do belive that Serge is Janus from a certain universe.
Check out my "Shadows of the past..." part.
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=588&start=15
Especially notice the "promise" part (and that also relates to the song 'far promise'.....).
Also, I have to mention the 'entity' from Chrono Trigger (I'm quoting something I wrote to someone a long time ago).
Also, do not confuse the term 'fate' with any character from Chrono Cross, because that is not the case:
That "entity" mentioned in 'Chrono Trigger' is in fact "Fate".
To those of you who played "Radical Dreamers" -
Remember the old lady who appears at the Clocktower/Storeroom inside the Viper Manor?
(The one who heals Serge and apprently is aware of Kid's past and their quest for the Frozen Flame).
That was Fate.
She was the one who gave Lucca the option to save her mother from the accident and created that time gate.
She's the one responsible for the reincarnation of Schala as Kid.
Schala wanted to be forgotten and lost in the vast flow of time after she felt responsible for the destruction of Zeal.
She went to death peak with no will to live any longer.
She wanted to commit suicide.
Fate had other plans for her, and chosen to give Schala another chance.
She brought her back to life as mere infant (later on, Lucca finds a baby girl with a pendant and adopts her, which is in fact Kid).
Fate is an entity which can see the past, present and future.
She is in fact what some may reffer to as a "god".
The godess of Fate.
If you really want an answer you have to think of 'Chrono Trigger' as what it is. A game which was developed years before 'Chrono Cross'.
There are many clues to suggest that in 'Chrono Trigger' and in it's direct sequel 'Radical Dreamers'.
Let me quote, if I may:
Serge: "Why bring us here, Kid? Is it fate?"
Kid: "...... Fate...? Life...? I don't even know anymore. But with Lynx, nothin's set in stone. But... sometimes, it feels like there's somethin' inside me, guidin' me... no matter what I do, it won't matter because I know it'll be showin' me what to do next..."
Anyway, there are many other clues.
Some are just suggestive and some are a bit more clear.
Personally, I always belived that it was pretty obvious in RD that the entity was in fact Fate (who could appear and disapear before their eyes, knew about the quest for the Frozen Flame, about Kid's past, etc.).
Chrono Trigger has a lot of mythology elements in it (as well as in a lot of other SquareEnix games).
Spekkio, the master of war, is actually the "god" of war.
Fate is, obviously, the godess of what we call fate or destiny.
In 'Radical Dreamers' we encounter Fate, and we also encouter another god. The god of death - Lilith, and Magil also summons the Goddess of the Moon.
Just as Magus (aka. Magil in RD) was supposed to be Guile in CC until it was decided that the realtionship between Kid and Guile won't be the same as in RD due to the large number of playable characters so magil's characters was replaced with Guile's.
'Radical Dreamers' answers a lot of questions which remained unanswered in 'Chrono Trigger':
What happend to Schala? what happend to Magus? What happend to Lucca? Who was the 'entity'? What happend to Crono? etc.
More about 'Fate' from 'Radical Dreamers':
With the stealth of a cat yet so valiantly composed, Kid follows behind in stride.
Drifting in and out of the shadows, the macabre figure of Magil looks out from behind.
The Weaver of Fate has surely by now taken notice of us, cradling us carefully in her arms...
*********************************************
"What do you want?"
I look around, startled. That was definitely not any of our voices.
Kid and Magil immediately take position, focusing their attention towards the source of the voice.
"Who's there!?"
A figure suddenly appears out of the darkness. It seems to be a short old woman with a large hood over her head. Although fully covered, it's obvious she's quite old.
"Aw, It's just some old hag," Kid says.
Magil's sharp gaze on the woman remains unchanged, however.
"Heh, heh... what an energetic young lady. You haven't come here this late in the evening to drop in on some friends, I'd imagine..."
I glance at Kid.
"Perhaps you have some score to settle with Master Lynx...?"
My heart jumps...
This is definitely not good. Will she warn the rest of them about us?
Kid's eyes narrow. "If we did have a score to settle with that bastard, what's it to you?"
"Heh... just as I expected."
The old woman cackles in amusement.
"Children... they're always so interesting like that. So imaginative, yet so predictable."
...???
"What're you talkin' about, old lady?"
"Oh, it's already been four or five years, I would gather. According to what I was told, one night a young thief came to the manor, looking for trouble... The thief was a little girl, about ten years old."
Surprised, I glance at Kid. There's a trace of an ice-like radiance in her eyes. Staring at her makes me feel like it's suddenly dropped below freezing in here.
Unfazed, the old woman continues her story...
"The girl was an orphan. She set off to face Master Lynx all alone, hoping to avenge the girl who had cared for her like a big sister.
But, after all, she was all alone. Outnumbered and overpowered, she was eventually defeated and captured by Master Lynx's henchmen...
As an ally, Master Lynx can be quite an asset. However, as an enemy, he can be one of the most fearsome men alive. If not for a friend who sneaked in and secretly rescued her, she surely would have perished.
From what I've heard, this mysterious figure who could allegedly slip in and out of the shadows was the subject of many whispers throughout the manor, long after this incident had come to pass."
Not moving a muscle, I try to look for Magil. He's nowhere to be seen. I can only guess he's sporting one of those trademark expressionless faces, somewhere off in the darkness.
"The inhabitants of Viper Manor don't condemn the unfortunate, because no one can win all the time. However, from time to time, the Goddess of Fate has been known to cast down those who have too much good luck, throwing the cogs of time out of order. It's not wise to try and stand against fate, continuing to repeat one's mistakes time and time again."
The old woman continues, staring straight at Kid, smiling sweetly. "If you want to steal the jewel, and if you really want to beat him, you too must give up your most valued possession, Kid. As long as you cling to it, the hands of your clock will never budge. They'll stay frozen, trapped in the distant past..."
"...Who the bloody hell is this old hag...!?"
"Me? Oh, just an old lady... pay me no mind. Thank you for listening to this old maid for such a long time. I certainly hope I haven't delayed you at all. But before you leave, which one of you..."
With that, the old woman looks in my direction.
"Ah, yes. You look like you've got a bit of a scrape there. Won't you let me have a look at it?"
What should I do? I don't know whether to be petrified or comforted by all this...
The old woman clasps her hands together. Bowing her head, she mumbles a few words in a low tone.
Suddenly, a gentle pale blue light surrounds my body, filling me with a strange warmth!
"Wow... look at that!"
My wounds are being healed before my eyes! It feels as though there's some sort of soft music being played all around me, putting me into a strange serenity.
When I come around, the woman is gone.
"Hello? Lady?" says Kid, relentlessly looking around. However, there's no trace of her. All signs of her presence are gone.
"Wonder what was up with that old hag..."
Looking around, I can't help but wonder what she was talking about, with all that talk about a prized possession and everything...
"Let's get our arses outta here! This place is givin' me the creeps!" says Kid all of a sudden, already heading for the door.
"Hey, wait up."
As I catch up with Kid, she gives me a friendly poke in the ribs. "Hmph, ain't no fair you were the only one who got healed."
Fate is watching them. Guiding them.
She can see the past, the present and the future.
When she speaks of the 'Goddess of Fate' she's reffering to herself.
*********************************************
I sit and look at my trusty knife collecting dust on the mantle above my fireplace, and think to myself, my days of traveling can't be over just yet. That old, familiar feeling of wonderment ensnares me as I vow to pack my bags tomorrow and set out for some new, exotic land, letting fate once again guide me wherever it wishes.
*********************************************
Why bring us here, Kid? Is it fate?
...... Fate...? Life...? I don't even know anymore. But with Lynx, nothin's set in stone.
*********************************************
The Weaver of Fate has surely by now taken notice of us, cradling us carefully in her arms...
****************************
More quotes from 'Chrono Trigger':
Azala: Red star... Fall!!!!! Stain the earth... RED! Though it may be our
fate to perish, we will not simply hand this world over to you! Mwa ha ha!
With this Black Tyrano I can finally exterminate those filthy apes!
A battle ensues.
Azala: No... It can't be...! Could the heavens truly have sided with the
apes? Listen, primates, and let it be known. We Reptites fought bravely to
the bitter end!
[/color=violet]
*********************************************
And from Chrono Cross:
Fate has no forgiveness for those who dare stand against it.
*********************************************
"What was the start of all this?
When did the cogs of fate begin to turn?
Perhaps it is impossible to grasp that answer now,
From deep within the flow of time..."
[/color=violet]
Now, first you have to understand 'Fate'.
Fate controls everyone's destiny.
Fate also posses the powers of a god.
She can see the past and the future, and she can create time gates as well.
In 'Chrono Trigger' Lavos was causing the time gates to appear.
Though it's all a part of Fate's plan.
She wasnt creating the time gates, though she was allowing this course of events to happen.
The time gate that she did create, was the time gate Lucca went through in order to save her mother from the accdient which caused her to lose both of her legs.
Here's the exact dialog (as you can see, Robo didnt claim that 'Fate' suffers. Actually, none of them isn't fully aware of her exsistence) :
Robo: After 400 years of experience, I have come to think that Lavos may not be responsible for the Gates.
Marle: What do you mean?
Robo: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all this. The different events over time, that we have witnessed. It is almost as if some entity wanted to relive its past.
Ayla: Ayla know! When people die, elders say, see whole life pass by!
Frog: 'Tis true that morals do relive their most profound memories before death claimeth them. Yet those memories are often sad ones.
Robo: Think things like, "If only I had done this," or, "I shouldn't have done that..." triggers unpleasent, old memories.
Marle: Will that happen when our time comes?
Lucca: Probably... who knows?
Marle: Is there a point in time you'd want to return to, Lucca?
Lucca: No... not really...
Marle: I'm sorry, was that something I shouldn't have asked?
Lucca: It's ok, it's just something I don't like to think about too much.
Frog: Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of the Entity...
Magus: .. so who is this Entity?
Robo: It is unknown, whose memories these are. It may be something beyond our comprehenseion. Our journey may come to an end when we finall discover the identify of the Entity. ... ... shall we turn in for the night?
Anyway, my point is that Janus / Magus / Magil / Serge / Lynx and Schala / Kid are bounded forever by fate and and a promise which was made long ago...
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That whole thing about Fate is off topic. Serge is not Janus, not even in any of the RD universes, whatever they may be.
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How can Fate be the Entity? That makes no sense. The main theme in Chrono Trigger is DEFYING fate. Heck, even a Poyozo in Zeal tells you there's no such thing as fate. I mean, why would Fate change things? That's backwards...Fate also isn't a dying thing, which is a requirement for something to be thought of as the Entity...I mean c'mon, you yourself quote the 400-Year Reunion! Get w/it... :P
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FATE cannot be the entity because it did not exist during the events of Chrono Trigger.
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Radical Dreamer wasn't talking about the super computer of destruction thing FATE, but some kind of personification/manifestation (w/e) of the idea of fate as a kind of god...
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I rather think that the ENTITY control Fate, no?
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Well, if it could control fate, why not veer Lavos off course in the beginning instead of waiting until it destroyed everything and made a big mess?
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BTW the way I see it the entity doesn,t control fate was only claering some things up and I think the entity couldn't touch/alter much so it did what it have to do in order to save itself with the less move possible
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The idea behind CT and CC was that you can change Fate, that it doesn't control everything. In CT, you change the future, avoiding the Lavos destroying the world. In CC, its a bit more literal, but similar.
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FATE cannot be the entity because it did not exist during the events of Chrono Trigger.
Again, please, do not confuse the super computer FATE with Fate (the godess / entity).
Radical Dreamer wasn't talking about the super computer of destruction thing FATE, but some kind of personification/manifestation (w/e) of the idea of fate as a kind of god...
Thank you. ^^
The idea behind CT and CC was that you can change Fate, that it doesn't control everything. In CT, you change the future, avoiding the Lavos destroying the world. In CC, its a bit more literal, but similar.
You are right to some extent.
In CT, RD and CC you are able to change events becaue fate allows you to do so.
Do not forget that fate has no forgiveness for those who dare stand against it...
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Changing fate always bring memories of Legend of Dragoon and I think that the is no "unchangeable" fate
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FATE cannot be the entity because it did not exist during the events of Chrono Trigger.
Again, please, do not confuse the super computer FATE with Fate (the godess / entity).
Radical Dreamer wasn't talking about the super computer of destruction thing FATE, but some kind of personification/manifestation (w/e) of the idea of fate as a kind of god...
Thank you. ^^
The idea behind CT and CC was that you can change Fate, that it doesn't control everything. In CT, you change the future, avoiding the Lavos destroying the world. In CC, its a bit more literal, but similar.
You are right to some extent.
In CT, RD and CC you are able to change events becaue fate allows you to do so.
Do not forget that fate has no forgiveness for those who dare stand against it...
... No. The idea behind Fate is that everything is predetermined, everything that happens can't be changed. The idea of changing history is saying that there is no fate, you decide yourself what will happen.
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... No. The idea behind Fate is that everything is predetermined, everything that happens can't be changed. The idea of changing history is saying that there is no fate, you decide yourself what will happen.
Or maybe the choise itself is merly an illusion?
Maybe the choise that is made is pre-determinated?
The change of history is also pre-determinated in some universes.
In other universes, it never occurs.
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Okay so if the entity that control Fate would create a world where humans get killed in 1999 AD then give the illusion to Crono and co. that they modified human's Fate? That would be wierd
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Okay so if the entity that control Fate would create a world where humans get killed in 1999 AD then give the illusion to Crono and co. that they modified human's Fate? That would be wierd
No................
You got me completly wrong.
Let me exmplain what I ment by illusion.
Have you seen the movie 'The Matrix'?
I hope so.
Anyway, there's a sence in which the Oracle tells Neo: "Don't worry about the vase".
So he asks "What vase?" looks around him while accidently pushing and breaking a vase.
Then she tells him that the next thing he's going to wonder is if she hadn't told him 'not to worry about the vase', would he still break it.
A lot better example is the Quantom Theory.
But I'll stop here. ;P
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yes I saw the matrix and I remeber that part.
I thinkt of the oracle in that part like a timeless being she can see various possibilities in time, so she knew that he would hit the vase what we don't know is what Neo was wondering
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yes I saw the matrix and I remeber that part.
I thinkt of the oracle in that part like a timeless being she can see various possibilities in time, so she knew that he would hit the vase what we don't know is what Neo was wondering
EXACTLY!!!
She is a lot like fate in the Chrono series, in my opinion.
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she never set Fate to anyone while yous aid that the Entity control Fate and write it somewhere where no one can modify while giving to illusion of modifying it.
It seems liek there is no way to see if they modified Fate like the story tells us or are given the illusion of modifying something that has already been set to be modified
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Alright, using the 400 year reuinion, I will try and explain why I do not believe that Fate or any "God of Fate" (or w/e you call it)...
Robo: I have come to think that someone, or something wanted us to see all this. The different events over time, that we have witnessed. It is almost as if some entity wanted to relive its past.
Ayla: Ayla know! When people die, elders say, see whole life pass by!
Frog: 'Tis true that morals do relive their most profound memories before death claimeth them. Yet those memories are often sad ones.
Robo: Think things like, "If only I had done this," or, "I shouldn't have done that..." triggers unpleasent, old memories.
Okay, this part clearly tells us that the Entity is a dying thing. The gates are created and are seen as it's "memories". How does this apply to Fate? It doesn't.
Frog: Lavos playeth an integral role in the fortunes of the Entity...
Magus: .. so who is this Entity?
Robo: It is unknown, whose memories these are. It may be something beyond our comprehenseion. Our journey may come to an end when we finall discover the identify of the Entity. ... ... shall we turn in for the night?
Now, at this second juncture, from what Frog says (and from what we already know about the plot), how the heck does Lavos suffer Fate at all?
The fact of the matter is that it's not just the most accepted because so many people believe it, but because there is so much proof collaborated to support it: THE PLANET IS THE ENTITY.
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... No. The idea behind Fate is that everything is predetermined, everything that happens can't be changed. The idea of changing history is saying that there is no fate, you decide yourself what will happen.
Or maybe the choise itself is merly an illusion?
Maybe the choise that is made is pre-determinated?
The change of history is also pre-determinated in some universes.
In other universes, it never occurs.
No, I don't think thats the case. Lets just toss out the whole meanings and purpose of the games if we take that even changes are pre-determined :/ We can even take the 'ending' in CT, where you get killed, with the screen "And the future refused to change" as proof the game is about changing your destiny, that there is no fate.
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I really don't like the idea of Fate, like radical dreamer thinks of it, the fate in CT is that Lavos destroy the world, but it is changeable (does this word exist?) in CC it's the time devorer, those are fate if you're weak and don't abttle through.
Let's say that "Fate" is not written anywhere, but it can only be change by the "Chrono Trigger"
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while yous aid that the Entity control Fate
No. I say the entity *IS* fate.
The fact of the matter is that it's not just the most accepted because so many people believe it, but because there is so much proof collaborated to support it: THE PLANET IS THE ENTITY.
Actually, since the planet doesn't have a mind of it's own, I belive that the "gods" of the planet are part of it.
If the planet was to be destroyed, those entities would be destroyed as well.
We can even take the 'ending' in CT, where you get killed, with the screen "And the future refused to change" as proof the game is about changing your destiny, that there is no fate.
Do not confuse the terms fate, destiny and future because there are all variables.
If you changed the future doesn't mean that you've change your fate / destiny, because if you did, it was probably part of your fate/destiny.
Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to do so.
the fate in CT is that Lavos destroy the world, but it is changeable
Is it?
Or maybe that future still exsists in many other universes....?
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So, then...Your idea of a God of Fate is limited to one world??? So, basically it's just the God of Fate of Crono's World? It only controls the fate of what happens on that one specific planet?
Also, the Planet is multiple times hinted at being a sentient, living thing.
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Azala: Red star... Fall!!!!! Stain the earth... RED! Though it may be our
fate to perish, we will not simply hand this world over to you! Mwa ha ha!
With this Black Tyrano I can finally exterminate those filthy apes!
A battle ensues.
Azala: No... It can't be...! Could the heavens truly have sided with the
apes? Listen, primates, and let it be known. We Reptites fought bravely to
the bitter end!
[/color=violet]
Well, this is what Azala says in the Japanese, uncensored, version :
<scene with Azala, right before heading outside to Black Tyrano>
Azala: You still came..... This is the final round.
Fast or slow, (the victor?) will be decided.
Us Dinosaur People, or you damned apes? [which] Side will survive on
this land? [is an unfinished sentence]
Ayla: That determine by Mother Earth's descision. Ayla fight!
Azala: Can you hear that voice? Hu hu, [can't translate rest of line]
Azala: Red Star.... fall... and stain Mother Earth red!
[can't translate next line]
Hu hu hu.
This Black Tyrano will erase you apes eternally from history!
*after battle*
Uu.... Have the heavens chosen you apes.....?
Ku--, Listen, Apes, and spread the word.
We Dinosaur People fought to challenge (our) fate of (our) proud and
lordly people being wiped out.......
Ayla: Understood.
Azala: In the beginning, a giant rock of burning flames falls....
The red hot fireball scorches everything.
Mother Earth is consumed. Before long, cooling begins. Ice settles in,
and a long era of intense cold will come.....
Ayla: Come! Azala! Come!
Azala: No good! Mother Earth has decided!
Azala: The future.....
Ayla: Future? What about future?
Azala: The future is/will.... [speech ends here]
No mention of fate (except one, but as a common word and not as a being) and several mentions of Mother Earth. The Planet is hinted at being a sentient being many times in CT and CC, while fate is never mentioned as a being. Actually, RD is the only episode in which fate is spoken as a sentient, real god, who actually does something.
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So, then...Your idea of a God of Fate is limited to one world??? So, basically it's just the God of Fate of Crono's World? It only controls the fate of what happens on that one specific planet?
Also, the Planet is multiple times hinted at being a sentient, living thing.
First of all, people, stop using the term 'world'!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's not 'world' it's 'universe'!!!!
And regarding your question - no.
Fate isn't limited to one universe.
She is the most powerful entity in the Chrono Series.
She can see the past, present and future in ALL of the dimensions.
[quote="Chrono'99"
No mention of fate (except one, but as a common word and not as a being) and several mentions of Mother Earth. The Planet is hinted at being a sentient being many times in CT and CC, while fate is never mentioned as a being. Actually, RD is the only episode in which fate is spoken as a sentient, real god, who actually does something.
[/quote]
I've already wrote about the connection between the gods of the planet and the planet iteself.
Fate *IS* mentioned as a being (see my quotes) and you actually get to meet her in 'Radical Dreamers'.
Please read my previous posts if you havn't done so already....
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We can even take the 'ending' in CT, where you get killed, with the screen "And the future refused to change" as proof the game is about changing your destiny, that there is no fate.
Do not confuse the terms fate, destiny and future because there are all variables.
If you changed the future doesn't mean that you've change your fate / destiny, because if you did, it was probably part of your fate/destiny.
Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to do so.
the fate in CT is that Lavos destroy the world, but it is changeable
Is it?
Or maybe that future still exsists in many other universes....?[/quote]
Okay, @first point: Incorrect. In the original timeline, Crono never time traveled. Also, fate=destiny.
@second point: No, CC confirms that the Lavos destruction future was cast into the DBT. It doesn't exist anymore. There are not infinite dimensions. The creation of alternate dimensions are special cases, ones that we do not know the reason for.
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Okay, @first point: Incorrect. In the original timeline, Crono never time traveled. Also, fate=destiny.
Please noticed that I ment fate / destiny versus future.
I even wrote a sentence later "fate / destiny".
@second point: No, CC confirms that the Lavos destruction future was cast into the DBT. It doesn't exist anymore. There are not infinite dimensions. The creation of alternate dimensions are special cases, ones that we do not know the reason for.
So how do you explain 'Radical Dreamers'?
I do think that there are infinite number of universes.
Bascilly, my assumption is that all the cases in a certain point in time have happend in diffrent universes.
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Since RD is not part of the main continunity, I can explain it this way: The only reason people assume that RD takes place in yet another dimension is that computer in Chronopolis, and the remarks by a character after seeing it. This is not my idea, and you could probably find the original thread here, but what if RD was simply Belthasar's way of simulating his Project Kid before he began it? I believe the entire game is a 'game' to Belthasar as well, simulation of different scenario's that might happen in his project Kid. While this isn't hard proof, just theory, there isn't any hard proof that RD is part of the main continunity.
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No, when I said world I meant world as in one planet and one planet alone.
I've already wrote about the connection between the gods of the planet and the planet iteself.
This is what I mean...You say that...but by that reasoning, your 'god of fate' is limited to Crono's planet...
It doesn't make sense to have a future where Lavos destroys the planet the 'god of fate' inhabits if the 'god of fate' can simply stop it from happening beforehand.
Live by the rule of the Poyozo: There is no such thing as fate.
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No, when I said world I meant world as in one planet and one planet alone.
I've already wrote about the connection between the gods of the planet and the planet iteself.
This is what I mean...You say that...but by that reasoning, your 'god of fate' is limited to Crono's planet...
It doesn't make sense to have a future where Lavos destroys the planet the 'god of fate' inhabits if the 'god of fate' can simply stop it from happening beforehand.
Live by the rule of the Poyozo: There is no such thing as fate.
are you talking about this?
[Poyozo Doll]
Do you believe in Fate?
Which means our lives are all
predetermined?
Well?
Yes, of course.
No such thing as Fate.
I don't have time for this!
So!
You're a believer!
Yes, it is useless for us to fight destiny!
You're right!
We're the masters of our own
destinies!
Speaking of which...
I believe there may be a doorway of
destiny somewhere around here!
......
?
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I think that CT and CC are going against fate.
Also doesn't CC mention that the planet is alive?
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I've already wrote about the connection between the gods of the planet and the planet iteself.
Fate *IS* mentioned as a being (see my quotes) and you actually get to meet her in 'Radical Dreamers'.
Please read my previous posts if you havn't done so already....
I have read them, and I already said that there are no god "of the" planet in the series, there is just and simply put "the" planet. I also noted that fate was took as a being only in RD. In CT and CC, fate is just a concept (as in our real world).
Also doesn't CC mention that the planet is alive?
Yes, and not just CC. Some Enlightened One in CT also mentioned this (the one who says that you could go to the Sun Palace in the future because the planet's shape changes over time).
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Must of missed it in CT then.
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There are no stated Gods in the Chrono Universe. It's more of a phrase saying like "Have the heavens sided on these apes?", it's like saying "When I die, I want to go up there". It's more of a phrase to say that a higher power made you lose.
Fate is not a god in the Chrono Unvierse. Fate is an entity, like the Planet.
Fate is more of a term saying that Serge and crew are going against a more powerful force, which I acctually think is just the ideal time line.
Fate could not be the planet because the planet has been known to want to save itself.
FATE as in the computer was a physical Fate that manipulated people into doing what it wanted, knowing what would happen from the records of its own time, and then from 10,000BC +.
Serge was some error in the whole way that the world should have run, the unseen Fate entity did not want him truely, this is why "And so Serge was never born.... Fate has no forgivess for those who opposite it".
Lavos should have always reigned. It was because of the Planet (the entity's) mingling that that CT and CC happened.
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Oh and to the person who was saying that there is not an infinite number of dimensions:
00025 (L:00232.H:00004)
+-----------------------------
Doc:
As gnarly as it seems,
this is reality.
Let me just say that
there are many
alternate worlds...
Even in different worlds,
you are you, and I am me.
Just remember that. Take care
of the other doctor for me...
A few other characters also say that there is more than 1 alternative dimension. Now this is game evidence.
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Which is more knowledgable on the subject, Miguel, or those characters who have no idea whats going on?
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There are no stated Gods in the Chrono Universe.
*cough*Dragon God*cough*
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isn't a god by defenition immortal and invincible?
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Uh, I don't think so. Different religions see their Gods differently. Take the Greek & Roman gods for example.
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Uh, I don't think so. Different religions see their Gods differently. Take the Greek & Roman gods for example.
they weren't immortal?
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I don't think so...I mean, there's also the Norse Gods, which, I believe all die during Ragnarok...Or at least a lot of them...Odin gets eaten by Fenrir, doesn't he? Someone gets eaten by it...
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Yea, everything dies in Norse Mythology, as do some gods in Greek.
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I'm pretty sure Thor gets eaten, or at least killed, by Fenrir.
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In some Asian Mythologies they have to be graced by Divine Objects to renew their immortality. Like in Chinese Mythology, they have to eat golden peaches for 1000 years of immortality or something like that.
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ok I believe you now, lol
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There are no stated Gods in the Chrono Universe.
*cough*Dragon God*cough*
The Dragon God is just a biological machine used and made by the Dragonians...
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Meh, it's still 'stated' as a god...
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Hey even man, err I mean dragonians, made stuff can be concidered a god.
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When I said "Stated Gods" I ment like entitys. The Dragon God's are not.
And I'm pretty sure all Greek God's were immortal forever, and could not even die by a weapon. Norse God's were capable of dying. The Greek's had the river Styx to bathe in (like Achellies, but he was the Son of a God and a human, so he had to be bathed in it to have immortality). The God's were born with immortality, but I'm just guessing that only their parents could destroy them, in other word's the Titans and Kronos, but even then they still did not die, only Zeus had to kill Kronos and then Hades/Posideon came out.
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No even the Greeks had legends about stuff that could kill the gods.
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They could only kill Demi-Gods, since they were only half immortal. Prometheus was a fully mortal god who had to suffer the same fate everyday, chained to a mountain for giving the humans fire, and live a painful life.
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Prometheus was a Titan....
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But a God, he was born of two gods.
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Firstly, as to Odin dying in Ragnarok, yes, he does. The Fenris Wolf (and I much prefer this less common spelling of the name) devours him, but he is avenged by his son Vidar the Silent. But whoever said it is wrong in saying that all perish in Norse: Baldur, Hodur, Magni, Modi, Vali, Vidar, and a man and a woman, at least, outlive Ragnarok and see the new earth... or so says Odin's vision of the future.
When I said "Stated Gods" I ment like entitys. The Dragon God's are not.
And I'm pretty sure all Greek God's were immortal forever, and could not even die by a weapon. Norse God's were capable of dying. The Greek's had the river Styx to bathe in (like Achellies, but he was the Son of a God and a human, so he had to be bathed in it to have immortality). The God's were born with immortality, but I'm just guessing that only their parents could destroy them, in other word's the Titans and Kronos, but even then they still did not die, only Zeus had to kill Kronos and then Hades/Posideon came out.
Norse... yes and no. Baldur died, as did his brother Hodur to Vali the Avenger, it is true, but were they not fated to be amongst the few to arise after the fiery doom of Ragnarok? The others who actually die, as opposed to simply being cast into Helheim for the ages of the world, do so in Ragnarok itself, which is an extrodinary circumstance where most everyone, gods, men, and giants, die.
As for Akhilleus (this is my preferred way of spelling it, as it is most true to the actual way), I think, if I remember right, he was never immortal in Homer. He was simply the greatest warrior whom none could overcome, and it took later writers to invent the whole tale of immortality, and his dip in the Styx - by whom the Gods swear unbreakable oaths - which bestowed upon him his charméd life.
As for the immortality of the Greek gods, see the next reply of mine.
No even the Greeks had legends about stuff that could kill the gods.
As far as things and weapons, none per say that I can think of. The nearest is the very sickly by which Kronos castrated his father Ouranos, usurping his place of heavenly command, but this did not utterly destroy Ouranos. Likewise Zeus overcoming Kronos did not destroy him, and some even have Kronos being the lord of paradise, in exchange for his heavenly throne. Atlas, also defeated, bears the world on his shoulders. And so forth. You see, the gods are in command of death (Thanatos, or the Grim Reaper as we would know him) and the underworld Hades, or more properly the realm ruled over by Hades, which consists of several areas. What these are vary from myth to myth, but some take an anvil falling from Olympos to take seven days to fall to the earth, and from earth to Hades seven days, and from Hades to the pit of Tartaros seven days. Thus Tartaros is the deepest, and that is hell, where the evildoers are punished, and some of the Titans (the 'Strechers') imprisioned. But as I said, no weapon I can think of per say can do it, save that in some myths the gods may indeed be harmed.
Homer, however, does allow for the gods to be injured, yea even by mortal heroes. Diomedes, near my favorite of the warriors of the Trojan war, wounds first Aphrodite, spilling her blood (that is, ichor, for she is a goddess), and later that bloodthirsty butcher Ares himself. In fact, when Aphrodite complains about Diomodes and his arrogance in injuring her, she is told that at whiles all of them have been in danger of injury, and it even seems that Ares was at one point imprisioned in a bronze pot (or something like that), and was in danger of death. Interesting, indeed.
Overall, though, one must remember that the Greek myths are not one set saga. Rather, they are the collective tales of many disparate regions and peoples over a period of almost a thousand years. Not only do they change, but different areas have different views (who was Zeus' wife? Hera? Metis? Leto? Most modern retellings make them successive, to clear the confusion that comes about from these different regionalities.) So it cannot be conclusively known how immortal they were, as different areas and times have different ideas.
And finally, as for Prometheus... yes he was a Titan. But one must remeber, what makes a Titan, and what makes a god? Are not the Olympians the sons and daughters of Titans? Titan simply means 'Stretcher', for to Ouranos, when he was usurped by Kronos, it seemed that his offspring were over-reaching their power and authority. Thus that generation of gods were known as Titans, but in inherent make-up, they are no different than each other. All these, whether it is Hades or Zeus or Erebos or even Styx, they are all gods of a similar sort, and almost always related.
By the way, Prometheus means 'forethought'; his brother's name, Epithemus, means 'after-thought'.
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No even the Greeks had legends about stuff that could kill the gods.
I think Greek gods are mortals, not mortal as in "human", but mortal as in "not immortal"). They can die but they don't just because they eat and drink stuff that rejuvenate them (ambrosia and nectar).
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Well I don't study myths. I just read something about Greek gods and O thought I saw someting about them being able to die.
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From what i know, Greek Gods cannot be killed: Think of Cronos, devouring his children because he was prophetized that they would overthrow him. He ate them all except for Zeus, who was saved through trickery by his mother. When the Zeus came back to wage war on Cronos, he opened his father's belly and his brothers came out fully formed.
The titans who opposed Zeus, couldn't be killed either, so they were banished to the Tartarus (Hell) in life.
Even Zeus, while being sort of married with Metis, he was prophetized his son with her would dethrone him. So he tricked her, already pregnant, to become a fly and swallowed her. Metis went on alive inside of him, giving him advice. But 9 months after, Zeus began to have terrible headaches, and they opened his head to relieve him. From the whole, Athena sprouted. So, even a godly embryo is hard to kill lol :D
As for Prometheus, thankfully his punishment was not eternal: good old Hercules freed him. ^_^ Prometheus didn't deserve such punishment.
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'Have patience, my child, and endure it, though you be saddened.
For many of us who have our homes on Olympos endure things
from men, when ourselves we inflict hard pain on each other.
Ares had to endure it when strong Ephialtes and Otos,
the sons of Aloeus, chained him in bonds that were too strong for him,
and three months and ten he lay chained in the brazen cauldron;
and now might Ares, insatiable of fighting, have perished,
had not Eëriboia, their stepmother, the surpassingly lovely,
brought word to Hermes, who stole Ares away out of it
as he was growing faint and the hard bondage was breaking him.
Hera had to endure it when the strong son of Amphitryon
struck her beside the right breast with a tri-barbed arrow,
so that the pain he gave her could not be quieted. Hades
the gigantic had to endure with the rest the flying arrow
when this self-same man, the son of Zeus of the aegis,
struck him among the dead men at Pylos, and gave him to agony;
but he went up to the house of Zeus and to tall Olympos...'
Homer's Iliad, Book 5, lines 382-398.
I rest my case.
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oh... ok, so then there is the possibility of killing them... but at least, none of them ever was. It's a funny thing you know ^_^ they can be killed, somehow, but noone was actually able to.
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Haven't you guys played God of War? You can kill a god, durr :wink:
Obviously I was being sarcastic, calm down Dan. :)
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Haven't you guys played God of War? You can kill a god, durr :wink:
Obviously I was being sarcastic, calm down Dan. :)
Did I say anything? I've never played the game, so I don't know. All I know is the general premise, and I feel inclined to point out that it was an extremely poor choice mythologically to make Pandora's Box some kind of god-killing weapon. The Sickle of Kronos would have been a far superior choice.
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Pandora's box would really only effect humans since they were pure till it was open. The only thing I see about the box is that all the God's emotions were poured into it. Hate, Violence. Since Humans didn't have any of that, only the Gods could. But the only thing that the God's envy is how precious each mortal life is, for the God's will never die and because mortals will, it makes them even more dear.
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Pandora's box would really only effect humans since they were pure till it was open. The only thing I see about the box is that all the God's emotions were poured into it. Hate, Violence. Since Humans didn't have any of that, only the Gods could. But the only thing that the God's envy is how precious each mortal life is, for the God's will never die and because mortals will, it makes them even more dear.
That last, though, really isn't a theme in old myth. In fact, the only place I can ever remember hearing of it is in Troy, which itself used very late traditions for its story (ie. not Homeric), spanned a time far exceeding the Iliad (thus is not based upon the Iliad), and even took it upon itself to alter the fates of main characters, such as Menelaos, which is something not even Homer did.
Anyway, as far as I can remember, the gods never envied humanity in such a fashion.
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Haven't you guys played God of War? You can kill a god, durr :wink:
Obviously I was being sarcastic, calm down Dan. :)
Did I say anything? I've never played the game, so I don't know. All I know is the general premise, and I feel inclined to point out that it was an extremely poor choice mythologically to make Pandora's Box some kind of god-killing weapon. The Sickle of Kronos would have been a far superior choice.
I was joking, I knew that the story was far from the canon.
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I would like to announce that I'm not EVEN going to skim over this thread as part of the analysis drive.
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Pwned.