Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: leena_zeal on April 11, 2009, 11:54:35 pm
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So... I've read this a few times already while browsing through the different threads.
I keep reading that Frog can only go back to being Glenn after Magus dies. But where is this explained in-game?
I've never seen any reference to this in CT, so I don't get why Magus dying is a requirement.
I get that if you kill Magus instead of recruiting him you get to see Glenn in the end scene, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that he can't undo the spell if he wanted to, right?
Just a doubt, sorry if this has already been discussed in a different thread
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It is said before or after (can't remember exactly) the Magus fight on the North Cape, where Magus himself tells it.
In CT, that is. Can't remember of the retranslation or CTDS. And, that's only that his death breaks the curse.
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Hmmm... now that you mention it, the North Cape scene does ring a bell. Though I think it's only if you choose to kill Magus (which I never do, I love Magus).
Still, is it impossible for him to reverse the curse at will? I mean, if I'm right and he says that when he's about to die, that doesn't necessarily mean that he can't do it, right?
I know it's kind of a pointless question, but I can't help asking anyways :oops:
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Frog was kissed by Marle, and he became a human again. :|
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Frog was kissed by Marle, and he became a human again. :|
Maybe that really is the reason. In the PSX and DS ports, the ending cutscenes show a human Glenn being honoured by the King and Queen, regardless of whether or not you killed Magus.
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So Frog was just another victim of that curse?
I... don't think so...
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Frog was kissed by Marle, and he became a human again. :|
Maybe that really is the reason. In the PSX and DS ports, the ending cutscenes show a human Glenn being honoured by the King and Queen, regardless of whether or not you killed Magus.
He should travel to Final Fantasy Dimension, where Frog status can be cured easily.
:picardno
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Frog was kissed by Marle, and he became a human again. :|
Maybe that really is the reason. In the PSX and DS ports, the ending cutscenes show a human Glenn being honoured by the King and Queen, regardless of whether or not you killed Magus.
One theory is that since Magus went back to 12,000 BC at the end of the game, he's considered dead as far as Glenn in 600 AD is concerned. Of course, there were similar situations in the game and his curse wasn't broken then, so the theory is flawed. Though perhaps it was because the entity Gates were still active or something (they're shut at the end of the game).
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Frog was kissed by Marle, and he became a human again. :|
Maybe that really is the reason. In the PSX and DS ports, the ending cutscenes show a human Glenn being honoured by the King and Queen, regardless of whether or not you killed Magus.
One theory is that since Magus went back to 12,000 BC at the end of the game, he's considered dead as far as Glenn in 600 AD is concerned. Of course, there were similar situations in the game and his curse wasn't broken then, so the theory is flawed. Though perhaps it was because the entity Gates were still active or something (they're shut at the end of the game).
I beg to differ. Following your logic, Glenn should be human again at the end of the Moonlight Parade (after he goes back to his time), regardless of whether you killed Magus or not. But such is not the case. If you let Magus live, you can see Chrono & crew flying through 600 AD in the Epoch, and Glenn is standing there, on Zenan Bridge... As a frog.
If you did kill Magus, he'll be standing there as a human. I think we should just agree that the cutscenes, awesome as they may be, are full of sh*t. Because it also shows Glenn getting ("knighted?") by a bearded King Guardia, and if I recall, King Guardia in 600 AD didn't have a beard.
As for why the curse is only lifted if Magus is killed? I thought it made pretty much sense. Since Magus brought the spell upon him, it is lifted when he dies. And for the record, I don't recall Magus saying the curse will be lifted if you kill him on North Cape. He just says "...You wish to fight me?".
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I beg to differ. Following your logic,
Well, it's not mine.
If you did kill Magus, he'll be standing there as a human. I think we should just agree that the cutscenes, awesome as they may be, are full of sh*t. Because it also shows Glenn getting ("knighted?") by a bearded King Guardia, and if I recall, King Guardia in 600 AD didn't have a beard.
Mmh, this detail is very interesting, actually. King Guardia in 600 AD didn't have a beard, but who said this knighting ceremony takes place in 600 AD? It could be later, with the King being older. After all, the same cutscene shows Lucca finding Kid in the woods, and we know that this was in 1004 or 1006 AD (CC and the CC Ultimania are unclear; in any case, it was not in 1000 AD). Maybe Frog found a way to break the curse himself sometime after 600 AD.
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And for the record, I don't recall Magus saying the curse will be lifted if you kill him on North Cape. He just says "...You wish to fight me?".
Well...
Defeat me, and you will
break the curse on Frog.
English CT dialogue, but it's there anyway. Can't remember what he says in the other scripts.
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The Retranslation appears to have
Magus: If I die......
Frog's curse will dispel in time......
All we can imply from this, however, is that killing Magus is a method of returning Glenn to his human form. There may be others.
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I was just about to post those two pieces of dialog--anyhow, yes, somehow after defeating Magus, Frog will revert to Glenn. It's completely plausible for Magus to be able to cure Glenn at any time, but why would he? There's virtually nothing in it for him, right?
I think another important question in all this is why it takes so long for him to revert--are we going to dismiss it as in-game mechanics, or do you think there's a plot reason for Frog only being Glenn at the end of the game?
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Here's something else to ponder: perhaps Magus was doing Frog a favor by not lifting the curse. Think about it... Glenn was a frog for ten years. When his curse is lifted, what happens to his body? Is he the same Glenn as he was on Denadoro Mt the day he was cursed? Or does he keep all the muscles and skills he obtained as a frog? Unless they took a year or so to train Glenn's human body, it would be a lot better for him to continue fighting as a frog.
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Frog to Magus in his Castle:
Frog: I rather enjoy this form.
And I oweth it all to you!
Frog: I have something for you!
Frog: I'm grateful.
It's because of such a form......
Frog: That I have what I've got!
In the NA version, Frog notes that he loves his new amphibian form, and owes it all to Magus. In the Japanese original, Frog actually gave a reason for this, noting that because of his status as a Frog, he was able to obtain the Masamune.
After Magus' death, perhaps Frog consciously retains his form because he prefers it in battle? With Lavos defeated, perhaps he reverted to human form because it was not necessary anymore, as he would be living in a peaceful time?
In one of the main ending variation, Frog bathes in the Denadoro waterfall to revert to his human form. Is it just for kicks or is there's something notable to it?
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Here's something else to ponder: perhaps Magus was doing Frog a favor by not lifting the curse. Think about it... Glenn was a frog for ten years. When his curse is lifted, what happens to his body? Is he the same Glenn as he was on Denadoro Mt the day he was cursed? Or does he keep all the muscles and skills he obtained as a frog? Unless they took a year or so to train Glenn's human body, it would be a lot better for him to continue fighting as a frog.
But if you look at Glenn's body when he opens the door to Magus' Lair, you can see he's quite skinny. I don't know if a frog can even develop muscles. I don't think there would be much difference if he returned to his human form.
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I've always thought that he kept it till Lavos for battle's sake, but that point about the Masamune is quite noteworthy. And Zephira, I've often wondered that myself: how would Frog battle in human form? No slurp, no slurp cut, and I'd assume decreased agility and mobility; having grown so accustomed to fighting as a Frog, he'd be severely hampered by the transformation.
In one of the main ending variation, Frog bathes in the Denadoro waterfall to revert to his human form. Is it just for kicks or is there's something notable to it?
Hmmm, I can't exactly remember, how do you get this ending? What criteria do you have to fulfill to achieve it? I guess I'll have to go re-watch it...Anyway, Denadoro is a pretty mystical place, having housed the Masamune and a whole load of Mystics, and it's also got a certain historical element to it: Glenn became Frog there, maybe he had to return there to have the curse lifted?
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In the NA version, Frog notes that he loves his new amphibian form, and owes it all to Magus. In the Japanese original, Frog actually gave a reason for this, noting that because of his status as a Frog, he was able to obtain the Masamune.
I think that just a way of wording to express his hatred.
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I was just about to post those two pieces of dialog--anyhow, yes, somehow after defeating Magus, Frog will revert to Glenn. It's completely plausible for Magus to be able to cure Glenn at any time, but why would he? There's virtually nothing in it for him, right?
I'm glad someone said it. Magus may be many things, but nice he ain't.
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He does appear nice sometimes. He tells you to search for the Guru of Time to revive Crono, even if you kill him at North Cape (he says it just before dying). If you don't kill him, this can be seen as an opportunist move, but why does he say it even if you kill him?
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He does appear nice sometimes. He tells you to search for the Guru of Time to revive Crono, even if you kill him at North Cape (he says it just before dying). If you don't kill him, this can be seen as an opportunist move, but why does he say it even if you kill him?
Maybe he just wanted to do one positive thing before dieing
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He does appear nice sometimes. He tells you to search for the Guru of Time to revive Crono, even if you kill him at North Cape (he says it just before dying). If you don't kill him, this can be seen as an opportunist move, but why does he say it even if you kill him?
So you know what to do next in the game, whether you kill him or not.
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Or he thought the party was his last best hope for Lavos being defeated and in order to obtain his goal from beyond the grave, desired to help them.
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Right: he's about to die, he might as well leave these hopefuls with another key to defeating Lavos. I guess you could say Magus is only "nice" when Lavos is involved--in the case of lifting the curse on Glenn, it'd have no holding on Lavos, so he might as well leave the bloke as a frog.
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I still stand that as long as there is a link between Magus & Glenn, the curse will be there...If the Gates remain open, that means that link is still there, just flowing through the Gates themselves (or at least the possibility that Magus & Glenn could be in the same era would still be there)...Once they close, that means the curse can be lifted and thus we get new animated always-Glenn (but with stupid short hair) endings...
Killing Magus isn't canon anyways, so idk how much we're supposed to put into what happens when you go down that path...
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It's because they didn't have battle sprites for Glenn they only had them for Frog that is why he does not revert to human form till the ending. It appears the only way to break the curse is by killing Magus.
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Interestingly, in Lucca's house in CC there are pictures of every CT PC except Frog and Magus (well, if I recall right, there's a green blob that might have been a nod to Frog, but who knows). It is almost like even the designers weren't sure if Frog was still cursed (and they didn't know if Magus was supposed to be alive or dead). So there it is possible that not even Kato knows if Frog has a human form and if Magus has to die to obtain it.
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And why wouldn't? Kato, after all, was responsible alone for all the 12,000 BC events.
Unless the dialogue was someone else's job.
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I don't think the kid's pictures are from actually seeing them though...Or else it's just from seeing that one pic (that apparently Magus took?) from the intro anime cut-scene. Otherwise I think they're just going off of descriptions from Lucca, so any pictures wouldn't be of human Glenn anyways...and maybe Lucca just left out mentioning Magus as not to scare the kiddies? :lol:
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And why wouldn't? Kato, after all, was responsible alone for all the 12,000 BC events.
Unless the dialogue was someone else's job.
Because the designers, Kato included, were more concerned with making a compelling and interesting video game, rather than creating a coherent mythos. How the curse is broken, if Magus has to be alive or not, etc, doesn't particularly matter to that goal, and so it wasn't bothered with.
V, my point was just that its amusing that the pictures in the orphanage could have cleared this matter up nicely, but didn't, leaving it open to interpretation. As CT could have gone both ways, they might have been trying to leave it open to both possibilities in CC.
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He does appear nice sometimes. He tells you to search for the Guru of Time to revive Crono, even if you kill him at North Cape (he says it just before dying). If you don't kill him, this can be seen as an opportunist move, but why does he say it even if you kill him?
Maybe he just wanted to do one positive thing before dieing
He doesn't think he's a badguy. Nobody thinks "I'm so bad and I love it!" except crybaby goth/emo/some types of metalheads and the occasional unbelievable boss from a game. Hitler even thought he was doing the right thing.
So, maybe he was just helping because it was necessary, maybe Magus just saw the bigger picture, and wanted the whole plan to pan out. He wanted Lavos dead, and if these people are strong enough to kill he who would have taken Lavos alone, then perhaps these people could do it for him.
And as for Frog staying Frog in-game: Motivation. Would he stick around and risk his life fighting aliens and traveling through time if he were accepted as a human in his own time? Or would he go home and protect Leene all night long? Maybe he needed his frog form to want to help, maybe he thinks he has to prove himself?
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Magus doesn't necessarily view himself as a bad guy, no, but certainly not a good guy. He recognized that the things he did as the Fiendlord were evil, and the experience was obviously bad enough for him to refer to it as "THE DARKNESS", but he was also consumed by revenge so much that he didn't do the "right" things when the options were there. The dude regretted focusing on killing Lavos more than grabbing Schala and some choice Zealians, getting in the magic getaway buggy and blowing that popsicle stand.
I still think of him talking about how to bring back Crono as his first nice thing to do, especially since he does it even if you kill him, but more importantly it gave a believable reason for him to be allowed in the party in the first place. If he just tagged along to fight Lavos without providing anything else, they wouldn't have let him in the Epoch, many gamers would think. Even if you kill him, it gives you a clue where to go next.
AS FOR FROG'S MOTIVATION... he's too heroic to ditch the gang mid-adventure even if he becomes human again. And through the course of the game, the people of his time accept him as a frog anyway. He's about proving he has his own will, and I think part of that will is sticking around with Crono and co. to save the world. I mean, he sticks around after you recruit Magus, that's gotta say something.
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the people of his time accept him as a frog anyway.
After 10 years in self-exile
he sticks around after you recruit Magus, that's gotta say something.
True, he's not flighty.
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I don't see any Epoch ending as canon anyways...Balloon or nothing else matters. And I also don't think the curse can be broken until the Gates close and there's just no way for Magus, the cause and the link to the curse, to be connected to Glenn...I see the spell as acting like a chain between them that can travel just as freely through time as Crono & Co., but only IF they can...
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the people of his time accept him as a frog anyway.
After 10 years in self-exile
Just how long and solitary was this exile if he was the Queen's bodyguard at the start of the game?
In any case, yeah, the "self" part is true. Frog's appearance is a little shocking at first, but it's not the sole reason he's an outcast of sorts. His own guilt and lack of confidence did that more.
Fixed your quote tag (you forgot the backslash for the closer & I hate seeing messed up ones :lol:)...
~V_Translanka