Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 01:19:42 pm
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When replying in another thread I was reinformed that the Compendium holds that Lavos was killed in 12,000BC because going through the Black Omen was the most "canon" path.
But, how do we even know the Omen is from 12,000BC initially? If you watch the event in the game, there is no water splashing or any kind of animation like that. There is lightning and we see the Omen slowly being phased in.
Looking at youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oll8dMfGBQk&feature=related , we see that if you have Lucca in your party, she says:
We're getting some interference from an enormous gate!
It can't be! Lavos!!??
So, the Omen was either brought from the under the sea via some giant spatial portal (like Dalton) or it came from a different time period. I can argue for both:
Spatial portal:
1) It never appears before 12,000BC but appears onwards.
2) Zeal displays that it has this technology.
Time gate:
1) It would probably have been destroyed in 1999AD (if it had risen in 12000BC), so why is it there in 2300AD?
We see that Lavos can easily destroy it - nor does he have any use for it. No reason to spare it.
2) The creatures inside, no matter what time period you enter it from, are mostly mutant like creatures like the ones we see from the future.
3) In 2300AD it hovers right over Death Peak - where Lavos arose to begin with. Since continental drift in CT is ridiculously fast and weird, its strange that in 2300AD the Omen was on the right spot to absorb his power, but it would not have been in 1999AD or previous eras.
Yea, a little biased, but that's life :D
Any thoughts?
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Well I am one to believe that Lavos was not defeated in 12000bc...but I don't quite follow your points for the Spatial Portal. What technology does Zeal display? I'd assume that it doesn't appear before 12000BC because it was built on or after 12000BC, and by it I mean the Ocean Palace.
As for the other points, Lavos may not be out to destroy everything . Lavos may very well just burst through with a huge blast of energy, like a chestburster of sorts, killing its host. I don't think Lavos comes to absorb the DNA for millions of years with the final intention of destroying its host...its just happens to be a violent detachment...
This is an assumption but the creatures inside could be a gameplay issue as those monsters were some of the tougher ones at that point, IIRC...they didn't have space to make doubles of existing monsters with higher stats or new monsters for that matter...so it would make sense for the designers to put tougher baddies in, rather than some blue imps or rubbles etc...
I don't understand your last point there...
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Another thing could be why it isn't seen in 1,999 after it rose. It can easily be hit by those rising boulders when Lavos rises itself.
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You can see my response in the other thread about it having connections to every era, sort of like those that Chronopolis has. Also, I thought that somewhere in CT, the Black Omen is actually referred to as the Ocean Palace that has risen? Also, if it wasn't from 12000 BC, how could Queen Zeal come to be there?
I think it's from 12000 BC, and that you're transported to 12000 BC no matter which era you enter it from.
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At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.
The technology Zeal is shown to have is teleportation via the Skyways...Perhaps it's interesting to note that the teleporter you take down to the Ocean Palace from the Zeal throne room looks like a Gate...
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Well I am one to believe that Lavos was not defeated in 12000bc...but I don't quite follow your points for the Spatial Portal. What technology does Zeal display? I'd assume that it doesn't appear before 12000BC because it was built on or after 12000BC, and by it I mean the Ocean Palace.
As for the other points, Lavos may not be out to destroy everything . Lavos may very well just burst through with a huge blast of energy, like a chestburster of sorts, killing its host. I don't think Lavos comes to absorb the DNA for millions of years with the final intention of destroying its host...its just happens to be a violent detachment...
This is an assumption but the creatures inside could be a gameplay issue as those monsters were some of the tougher ones at that point, IIRC...they didn't have space to make doubles of existing monsters with higher stats or new monsters for that matter...so it would make sense for the designers to put tougher baddies in, rather than some blue imps or rubbles etc...
I don't understand your last point there...
The technology was teleportation. Like Dalton and the creatures inside the Black Omen. As for Lavos rising: I've always thought of it as the parent's way of destroying any threats to its spawn. He is done with his host - and he has to make sure the host's inhabitants cant threaten the spawn.
Yes the monsters could be just gameplay, you're right lol. I was just pointing it out.
As for my last point: The ocean palace tried to stay close to Lavos to be in touch with its power - it would make sense for the Black Omen to do the same. In 2300AD, the Black Omen hovers over Death Peak, where Lavos "reigns" aka probably where it rose and where its spawn are growing. The world map changes between time periods, but the Black Omen is always in the same spot (use Epoch). So its strange that in 2300AD, the Omen is close to Lavos - but in other periods it would be further away.
You can see my response in the other thread about it having connections to every era, sort of like those that Chronopolis has. Also, I thought that somewhere in CT, the Black Omen is actually referred to as the Ocean Palace that has risen? Also, if it wasn't from 12000 BC, how could Queen Zeal come to be there?
I think it's from 12000 BC, and that you're transported to 12000 BC no matter which era you enter it from.
The last time we see Queen Zeal, shes with Lavos, not in the Ocean Palace. Also, if you destroy the Black Omen in 1000AD or 600AD, Lavos will destroy the Omen but you can still go through it again. So it can't directly transport you to 12000BC, because in this example, the 12000BC version remains intact.
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I seem to recall that in the animation, first you see the "modified" Ocean Palace light up below the sea in 12,000 B.C., and then you see it phase into existence above the sea. I always figured the Black Omen was a modified Ocean Palace via Lavos' awesome power, and that it used a massive spatial gate to appear above the sea. I think that makes the most sense.
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At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.
I don't get it. Using the Epoch lets you skip the battles against the shell. Why defeat it, go back, and use the Epoch to force your way in if you have already done it?
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At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.
I don't get it. Using the Epoch lets you skip the battles against the shell. Why defeat it, go back, and use the Epoch to force your way in if you have already done it?
Because blowing shit up is cool?
I always wondered why that Epoch animation of blasting through the shell looks like they are flying through the freaking grand canyon, while the actual animation of Lavos' size isn't that big.
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At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.
I don't get it. Using the Epoch lets you skip the battles against the shell. Why defeat it, go back, and use the Epoch to force your way in if you have already done it?
i think you are able to back out before the shell battle, after Zeal...could be wrong though
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As I recall, that same spot is crucial to lavos in every period. In Prehistory, it was the tyrano lair. Antiquity gets a little weird. There's a cave at that spot, but Lavos shows up in the ocean to the far east, but this new spot also happens to be where the Black omen appears (this is the exception.). Warp from Tyrano lair to the middle ages. You won't come out over Giant's Claw - You'll come out over Magus's Castle. (AHA!!! So that's why he built it there). Now let's take it to the present. Melchior's hut, nothing particularly interesting about it... ...until you look at the 1999 map in Chrono Trigger DS. This "West medina" spot right here is where Lavos is coming out of the ground in that "day of Lavos clip" we all see.
2300 AD. Let's go from say Magus's Castle to 2300 AD. You should come out around Death Peak, and lo and behold, Black Omen is right there.
So why doesn't the epoch take you to Magus's castle before it has wings? Well that wouldn't be very convenient, don't you think? But it does take you pretty close, with that peninsula.
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Maybe the distance between Magus's Castle and the peninsula is the same as in Death Peak and Keeper's Dome?
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I seem to recall that in the animation, first you see the "modified" Ocean Palace light up below the sea in 12,000 B.C., and then you see it phase into existence above the sea. I always figured the Black Omen was a modified Ocean Palace via Lavos' awesome power, and that it used a massive spatial gate to appear above the sea. I think that makes the most sense.
You don't see the Ocean Palace light up in that cutscene - its a cutscene way before it when the Zeal continent is still intact.
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Ah that's right it's just some sort of lightning bolt or something. I could have sworn I remember seeing a sillouette of the Omen below the sea at least though...maybe I'm mistaken.
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It's actually the silluoette of the Omen.
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It doesn't appear to be below the sea. We just see "space wobbling" where the Omen is appearing.
Why would Lucca mention an "enormous gate" if its just rising from the ocean?
We see the outline, lightning appears, the Omen starts to flicker, then the camera switches to a close up of the top where we see the Omen as it fully phases in.
If that is supposed to be "rising from the water", then I'm confused as to why they would use such animation. No splashing, no whirlpool, no text like "omg what's that in the ocean!" - instead we have: "omg a big gate."
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Of course, it is not under the sea. So then, why bother with it, move it to the sky?
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Of course, it is not under the sea. So then, why bother with it, move it to the sky?
I'm not exactly sure what that means. But if you are asking "why move it to the sky?" then I would speculate that in the future, because Lavos is no longer deep within the earth, another undersea construct would be inefficient for absorbing his power. Also, if the Black Omen was built on land, and simultaneously appeared in all eras after 12000 BC, it would phase in inside buildings and mountains, oceans, people, etc all throughout different eras because continental drift in CT is rapid. So, the air makes more sense. Less chance of phasing into big objects.
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I see.
Although...
Simultaneously appeared in all eras after 12000 BC.
I don't think that's how the Omen appeared in the other eras.
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I see.
Although...
Simultaneously appeared in all eras after 12000 BC.
I don't think that's how the Omen appeared in the other eras.
True. It makes more sense for the Omen to have made a single trip in time.
Though it creates somewhat of stalemate between the ideas that
(idea 1)it was created/teleported to the sky in 12000BC
(idea 2)it was created somewhere in the future and time travelled to 12000BC
because... (idea 1) if we destroy the Omen in 1000AD or 600AD we can fight it again in 12000BC because, as we know, killing a future version of something won't destroy a past version of it.
and, (idea 2) destroying the Omen in 1000AD or 600AD, even if the Omen is in a PD, wouldn't destroy the Omen in 12000BC because of TTI.
So I guess my idea now is something that I hope you guys will find reasonable: (though I'm not claiming anything)
Omen is created/made fully functional in ~2300AD to absorb more energy from Lavos right above Death Peak.
Omen warps back to 12000BC from Time X > 2300AD to prolong how much energy it can absorb from Lavos.
Omen has TTI for its appearance in 12,000 BC.
Omen is destroyed on the Day of Lavos 1999AD.
Omen Crono and Co. see in 2300AD is the Omen pre-time travel.
Speculation, of course. But I don't think its ridiculous. I think it makes more sense than the entire undersea palace being severely reconstructed, having a whole bunch of new technology, and very strong mutants seemingly out of nowhere - all in a relatively short amount of time.
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Problems arise:
1) In a destroyed world, how will the Omen be built? Who will be capable of doing it? And, why would he/she will want to absorb Lavos's energy?
2) Why it isn't present in the Pre-Ocean Palace-Incident-With-Crono 2,300 AD?
3) The Omen always disappears of 2,300 AD no matter which past version is cleared first.
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An additional problem (sorry Eske I usually agree with you!): Crono and co. are supposed to be the most recent versions of the time travellers, speaking from a Time Error standpoint. I'm assuming you are saying that the Black Omen was created in the future for some reason as a result of the direct intervention of Crono and co. in the Ocean Palace in 12,000 B.C? This would make sense since the Omen is not already there in 12,000 BC before they intervene.
But, since Crono and co. are the most present versions of the time travellers, there would have to be an intermediate timeline in which Lucca, Marle, etc. don't see the Omen rise in 12,000 B.C. Only when the point rolls around in the future that the Omen is built does it go back in time, sending that future to the DBT.
That's the primary reason why I think this is incorrect.
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Problems arise:
1) In a destroyed world, how will the Omen be built? Who will be capable of doing it? And, why would he/she will want to absorb Lavos's energy?
2) Why it isn't present in the Pre-Ocean Palace-Incident-With-Crono 2,300 AD?
3) The Omen always disappears of 2,300 AD no matter which past version is cleared first.
1) We don't see any workers in the Black Omen anyway, just monsters, Queen Zeal and some two Nu fellows.
2) Time Error, things don't happen until they happen
3) And despite the above arguments here is where I fail haha.
back to the drawing board...
Well, looking at the alternative name for the Black Omen, the Black Dream, I suppose that Queen Zeal used Lavos's power to "will" it into existence. Its like her personal playground. The gateways that the mutants spawn from are probably just her willing more creatures into existence. Also, we see no workers, or anything that could really qualify as a worker to reconstruct the ocean palace that fast.
The damned thing didn't rise from the ocean, or that cutscene is just really messed up.
But yes, I concede that one way or another, the Black Omen was originally from 12,000BC. :(
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2) Time Error, things don't happen until they happen
Exactly, so there would be an intermediate timeline in which Marle and co. wouldn't see the Omen rise. It has to be from 12,000 B.C. for this reason alone.
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2) Time Error, things don't happen until they happen
Exactly, so there would be an intermediate timeline in which Marle and co. wouldn't see the Omen rise. It has to be from 12,000 B.C. for this reason alone.
Yep. At least Time Error proves it. So the phasing in means something else.
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I'm beginning to think that the original translation of "Black Dream" sheds light on this. Perhaps it really is a literal manifestation of Lavos and Queen Zeal's "dream", maybe called forth from Zurvan, the sea of dreams?. We know next to nothing about that place. It's only mentioned by Schala once but there is certainly reason to believe that the "dream beings" like Masa and Mune could have come from there. It could be a completely extra-temporal place like the DBT.
So, my idea is: The Black Omen is called forth from Zurvan, probably like Masa and Mune are, in 12,000 B.C. The inside of it works somewhat like a pocket dimension and has connections to all time periods (although probably just the door of the Omen is the connection point). It probably isn't shown in the 1999 A.D. animation for simplicity and game mechanics (why make two nearly identical animations to take up space?), and the Omen in 2300 A.D. is the same as the one in all other time periods.
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The last time we see Queen Zeal, shes with Lavos, not in the Ocean Palace. Also, if you destroy the Black Omen in 1000AD or 600AD, Lavos will destroy the Omen but you can still go through it again. So it can't directly transport you to 12000BC, because in this example, the 12000BC version remains intact.
When Zeal calls upon Lavos, regardless of which era you entered the Black Omen, you can clearly see that you're in 12,000BC...Also, I highly doubt that multiple runs through the Black Omen is canon.
At the very least you end any Black Omen run in 12,000BC...I personally believe you're supposed to go through the Black Omen, but then back out before Lavos' 2nd form & then punch into him with the Epoch because I see the Balloon Ending as the most canon.
I don't get it. Using the Epoch lets you skip the battles against the shell. Why defeat it, go back, and use the Epoch to force your way in if you have already done it?
I figure that the more damage against Lavos the better...and that Epoch also wants to help Crono & Co. against Lavos. I also figure they might think that if they go through the bucket that they'd have to defeat Lavos' 1st form again...
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But why go back? If they are already there, why not go and fight the inner core than pull back and keep damaging the shell?
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To further collect yourself & otherwise you wouldn't get to see what Gaspar says about Zeal...!
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I'm beginning to think that the original translation of "Black Dream" sheds light on this. Perhaps it really is a literal manifestation of Lavos and Queen Zeal's "dream", maybe called forth from Zurvan, the sea of dreams?. We know next to nothing about that place. It's only mentioned by Schala once but there is certainly reason to believe that the "dream beings" like Masa and Mune could have come from there. It could be a completely extra-temporal place like the DBT.
So, my idea is: The Black Omen is called forth from Zurvan, probably like Masa and Mune are, in 12,000 B.C. The inside of it works somewhat like a pocket dimension and has connections to all time periods (although probably just the door of the Omen is the connection point). It probably isn't shown in the 1999 A.D. animation for simplicity and game mechanics (why make two nearly identical animations to take up space?), and the Omen in 2300 A.D. is the same as the one in all other time periods.
That works. It ties in with my idea that Queen Zeal "wills" it into exitence. But relates better to the series, good job :D
The Compendium holds that the Omen is "ageless", which, if it were a dream, would make sense.
You said earlier that there has to be an intermediate timeline for my old example to work. But by that model we could never see anyone time travel besides ourselves (or our group) or a group of people who time travelled to the same "time" before we did in Time Error.
Time Error 0 nothing
Time Error 1 A travels from X to X-10
Time Error 2 B travels from X to X-10
A won't see B time travel until the "second" time around. This makes sense.
But
That would mean that every time something is added or taken away from the timeline, the remaining timeline needs to reset from that point. That normally wouldnt be a problem but - what about when Lavos sends the gurus away via time gates?
That is a 5D change, so it should send a future where the gurus do NOT vanish to the DBT, right?
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Yes, but this situation involves sending individuals into the future and so it is different from your original scenario of sending the Omen into the past.
Note that in the game (because you represent the most recent versions of the time travellers) you never see a future "you" or any future "event" coming from the future into the past (unless I'm forgetting something).
Look at it from the perspective of a person on the timeline. At Time X exists person A. Crono and co. enter the timeline at Time X, sending the previous future in which they didn't exist there to the DBT. In this new future, the Black Omen is created at Time X + 3000 (for sake of argument) and then travels back in time to Time X+10. Does Person A see the Black Omen appear at Time X+10?
He does not, because the 5D change to the timeline doesn't occur until it occurs. Meaning that first the Black Omen must be created in the future before it can travel to the past, making a 5D move and sending that future to the DBT.
ie: There are two futures. One in which the Black Omen is created in the future and travels to the past but doesn't exist at all points before that. This future is sent to the DBT when the Black Omen travels to the past. The new future has the Black Omen in all time periods after Time X+10. Since Marle and co. are the most recent versions of the time travellers, they couldn't see the Black Omen the "first" time around if it came from the future.
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That makes sense. So, assuming that the original Ocean Palace incident happens on Time's "first run through", lets add something.
On the first run through, time travel to the future can occur without "pushing" up Time Error to a higher value.
So if everything happens in Time Error 0, lets add an event and say it was also apart of Time Error 0.
During the Ocean Palace incident Gaspar, Belthasar, Melchior, Janus, and Bill (a palace worker) are all sucked into time gates.
Lavos first targets Bill, and then the others in the order that we see in the game.
Bill is sent to 1000AD.
So does Bill see Melchior appear from the same gate moments later? or is there a timeline where Bill lives out his life never seeing Melchior?
If its all at Time Error 0, Bill should see Melchior. If not, things are different.
For my example in an earlier post, I'm hoping that Bill will see Melchior.
A similar question would be: If Magus was immortal, would he see Melchior appear from the gate 400 years later?
If so it means that you can see other entities time travel as long as its within the same Time Error....
EDIT: added the following...
Okay, so I think I'm confused about something.
Say we have two entities, A and B
A - at Time X, Time Error Y, travels 10 years into the future.
A - at Time X+10, Time Error Y+1, will appear, of course.
B - at Time X+1000, Time Error Y+1, travels 989 years into the past.
B - at Time X+11, Time Error Y+2, will appear there.
When A first travels to the future, he will not see B a year later in this time cycle. Once time cycles again into the next Unit of Time Error (2), A will see B one year later. Also, for B at TE = Y+1, A will have always appeared at X+10.
So by conventional thinking, the above model shows that my idea of the Black Omen being from the future does not make sense.
If its from the future, there must be an intermediate timeline, as chrono eric suggested, before the Omen would be visible to Crono in 12000BC.
But let's try this:
Crono - at Time 2300AD, Time Error N+100, is now in the future to get the new Epoch. Some years later on this timeline...
Black Omen - at Time 23XXAD, Time Error N +100, vanishes, bound for the past. But before that....
Crono - at Time 2300AD, Time Error N+100, vanishes, bound for Antiquity via Epoch. (12000BC) Resulting in.....
Crono - at Time 12000BC, Time Error N+101, appears in Antiquity.
Black Omen - at Time 12000BC+ X amount of time, Time Error N+101, appears in front of Crono and Co.
When Crono defeats Lavos and creates a new future, the fact that he travelled in the old future to the past is preserved through TTI, even if all of that information has now been replaced. A future Omen would work the same way. Even if Crono time travelling first would "push" Time Error, the entire timeline will play out and come full circle for Crono's arrival - preserving any time travelling done by anyone (or thing) after him.
If something leaves the timeline at the same point on Time Error as you, and then reappears on the same Time Error point you reappear on, but AFTER you on the timeline, you can see their entrance.
If you think about it... look at what happens when Marle goes into 600AD at the beginning of the game:
From the 600AD onward, the timeline should be discarded and there should be a new timeline where Marle is never born in 1000AD.
But that isn't what happens -- the old 1000AD and onward still plays out. That means we are still in the same Time Error. Even crazier is that Crono time travels from there! That means, from Marle's perspective, Crono eventually comes for her. There is no Marle who lives out her life in 600AD to old age, or even a 600AD where the Queen is never saved.
Now, the game conveniently gives the opposite perspective. While the player is in 600AD, Lucca travels into the past, changing the timeline yet again, but still there is no Crono who lives out to old age or one that rescues the Queen on his own. All 3 of them travel from the same point on Time Error, and end up on the same point because each one travelled/arrived after the other and the timeline continued to run its full course before resetting.
In conclusion, it is possible for the Black Omen to have travelled from a very distant future to the past, appearing in Antiquity X amount of time after Crono and Co.
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Ah yes you are correct with the Marle situation. I always assumed there would have been an intermediate timeline there, but your analysis is right.
You're also right about the Black Omen situation, even though it's likely that the Omen was just summoned from a "dream space" anyways. But it would still work just fine time mechanically speaking.
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Ah yes you are correct with the Marle situation. I always assumed there would have been an intermediate timeline there, but your analysis is right.
You're also right about the Black Omen situation, even though it's likely that the Omen was just summoned from a "dream space" anyways. But it would still work just fine time mechanically speaking.
I don't really think the Omen came from the future anymore, I agree with your idea. But I just wanted to show it was possible. Its all leading to something...
I'm thinking about something that would challenge Time Error, and I think I solved the Marle Paradox...... lol 8)
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No I know that, I was actually agreeing with a hypothetical example that it would be possible for them to see the Omen on the "first" run through the timeline.
Man, it seems like this Time, Space, and Dimensions forum has become the most productive since me and you started discussing things Eske :D.
As for the Marle Paradox, you are right that it is a unique case. I'm not sure about it yet. But since we proved in the other thread that TB can certainly work in an "abnormal" fashion, it would be interesting to see what else we could apply this to. However, I suspect that in a normal timeline that the instances of TB acting like it does in the "fused" timeline are rare if they exist at all.