Chrono Compendium

Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: Chocobo_Fan on December 19, 2008, 07:43:57 pm

Title: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on December 19, 2008, 07:43:57 pm
If the TD, like Lavos is speculated to, runs on a time axis perpendicular to the normal flow of time (a Time-Error) and its defeat erases it from all timelines, then that means that Lynx would never have existed, and thus Lucca's orphanage would not have been burned and she would have survived, and also the Dimensional Vortices would never have opened, so Dalton would be trapped there, unable to cause the Fall of Guardia.

However, it would also mean that El Nido and Serge would never have existed, yet they clearly do, as we see in the short scene on Opassa Beach...

This kind of stuff makes my head hurt, so I'm not sure if I'm thinking about it wrong or not. :/ Opinions/facts to support/go against this theory?
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 19, 2008, 07:56:26 pm
Wrong, I believe. The Time Devourer doesn't cease to exist in all timelines, just in the new Ideal Timeline created at the end of Cross. Time in the chronoverse runs in both 4D and 5D directions. In the new timeline that results, the Time Devourer indeed does not exist, but all time travel events that happened in the original timeline would be preserved by TTI, so it's likely that Dalton still appears to destroy Guardia (especially since it happened in 1005 AD, 5 years before the dimensional split).

The Compendium has an extensive article on this - Chrono Cross Resolutions. You should check it out.

I don't think it's entirely accurate regarding what is preserved with TTI, however, and I have my own thoughts about it in this thread http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6439.0.

One thing seems incredibly likely, and that is that events related to time travel before the split in 1010 A.D. are preserved via TTI, including the appearance of Dalton and the Fall of Guardia and the formation and colonization of the El Nido Archepelago (even though Chronopolis no longer exists).

And besides, even without complicated TTI theory, the cutscene with Serge and Leena at the end proves that he still exists and so does El Nido, regardless of defeating the Time Devourer.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on December 19, 2008, 08:10:34 pm
I actually have read the Chrono Cross Resolutions article, but it didn't help very much... The ending is just left so open-ended...

Ah, TTI. That's an annoying problem. So the Fall still happens... But what about Lucca? Lynx never time traveled to get to her, so without FATE and Chronopolis, Lynx never existed and never killed Lucca...

The TD was created before the dimensional split, though, so I think that things before the split could still be affected... Still, though, Dalton's protected by TTI...

Gah, the Time, Space, and Dimensions forum always makes my head hurt. >.<
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 19, 2008, 09:16:33 pm
Well, I noted in my thread (in agreement with the Comendium's article) that Wazuki (corrupted by FATE) and Serge would still emerge from the Dead Sea protected by TTI before 1010 AD. It's likely that the electrical storm caused by Schala is protected by TTI as well. However, I believe that after 1010 A.D., the Records of Fate would likely spontaneously stop working because events covered by TTI that happened differently in the two dimensions could not be preserved. Otherwise you'd be left with major Time Bastard problems. (for example - if Home Vann time travels in Another World with Serge to save Kid in the orphanage fire, but Another World Vann does not time travel at all, then is the Ideal Vann in the unified timeline Time Bastarded out, or not?)

So if instances of TTI/TB that occurred differently in both timelines are not preserved in the unified timeline after 1010 AD, and if transmissions from FATE through the RoF were somehow necessary to transform Wazuki into Lynx, then it's possible that Wazuki never became Lynx. Even if he did, however, he was certainly guided in his actions by FATE, so without FATE Lucca's orphanage would not be burned down (happened after 1010 AD) and she would probably still be alive.

While the Time Devourer was created before the dimensional split, it was created in the Darkness Beyond Time which probably has some sort of perpendicular or transcendent time flow like the End of Time. It would still be subject to Time Error though, and so you can look at it like this:

At Time Error X - dimensions divided, Time Devourer exists in the DBT but is defeated by Serge unifying the dimensions, thus creating a situation at:

Time Error X+1 - unified timeline, Time Devourer no longer exists in the DBT.

Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on December 19, 2008, 09:27:02 pm
Does dimension crossing give you TTI though? In which case, it's possible Dalton doesn't have TTI... But it likely gives you some form of "Dimension Crosser's Immunity"...

Gah, talking about this kind of stuff always gets me confused. >.< I have a feeling that Square didn't look too deeply into time travel mechanics, instead just saying, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we made a game about time travel?"

So, bicker and speculate about TTI this and TB that as we may, I have a feeling the developers didn't create the game with those things in mind, which pretty much makes all of those arguments pointless... x_x
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 19, 2008, 09:53:05 pm
So, bicker and speculate about TTI this and TB that as we may, I have a feeling the developers didn't create the game with those things in mind, which pretty much makes all of those arguments pointless... x_x

They most certainly did not, I'm sure. But, they created a coherent story in which time paradoxes and time duplicates do not exist. So whether they intended to have TTI or TB or not, they (or something very much similar to them) have to be present to account for the lack of paradoxes.

Just for fun, try to create a simple time travel story yourself in which paradoxes and duplicates do not exist (using the canon explanation of sending futures to the DBT every time time travel occurs). You can't do it without TTI or TB or something very, very similar. Somehow past versions of time travellers have to be removed and present versions have to be preserved. Otherwise the entire story would fall apart.

So I think it's safe to say that we can have a good discussion about the ending of Cross with TB and TTI firmly in place. Otherwise we can't have a meaningful discussion at all.

That said, the question of whether or not dimensional travel is covered by TTI is a good one. But remember, Dalton came from 12000 BC and eventually ended up in 1000 (or so) AD. Regardless of whether or not he did dimensional travel as well, his appearance in 1000 AD should still be covered by TTI.

But just for fun let's try to figure out whether or not it would be necessary to cover dimensional travel by something like TB and TTI (DB and DTI perhaps?). I've never done it before so it should be interesting. I'll make a simple thought experiment and see if dimensional travel creates paradoxes. Here we go:

Two dimensions exist which are parallel to each other in time. In Dimension 1 a man called Dimensional Traveler exists in the timeline. In Dimension 2 he was never born. A person called Time Traveller was born in Dimension 2 and may or may not exist in Dimension 1 (doesn't matter).

Dimension 1: Time X: Dimensional Traveller goes to dimension 2 via some dimensional gate.

Dimension 2: Time X: Dimensional Traveller appears in dimension 2. Time Traveller meets Dimensional Traveller, decides he is an asshole, and travels first to Dimension 1 with the intent of going back in time to kill his grandfather so he never exists.

Dimension 1: Time X+1: Time Traveller arrives in dimension 1, goes back  in time to X-100.

Dimension 1: Time X-100: Time Traveller kills Dimensional Travellers grandfather, changing history in Dimension 1 so that Dimensional Traveller never crosses the dimensions to Dimension 2, then travels back to the present in Dimension 1 and goes back to his home dimension of Dimension 2 at Time X+2.

Dimension 2: Time X+2: Time Traveller returns to his home dimension anticipating that Dimensional Traveller wouldn't be there. Does he meet Dimensional Traveller, or not?


Quite a thinker, eh?

EDIT: I have reinstated my conclusion that dimensional travel is covered by "Dimensional Bastard" and "Dimensional Traveller Immunity". It would have to be, as in my example a paradox would occur. One might think that the paradox would be taken care off by the actions of Time Traveller being preserved by TTI alone, but his original dimensional crossing to Dimension 1 would have to be preserved as well.

Thanks for the thought provoking thread!
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on December 19, 2008, 10:18:34 pm
Hah, glad my stupid idea turned into a thought-provoking one. :)

Unfortunately, this will without a doubt start going over my head really soon, so perhaps I should leave this up to you and some of the Gurus of Time...
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 19, 2008, 10:30:47 pm
Unfortunately, this will without a doubt start going over my head really soon

Naw, it's not that complicated. You just have to think of what would create a temporal paradox, and then account for the fact that a paradox couldn't be created by introducing TB and TTI. It actually explains quite a bit about the story and endings of Trigger and Cross. To me, the ultimate triumph of TTI would be the existence of the El Nido archepelago at the end of Cross. The measure of a good theory is to actually make predictions based on the rules of the theory, and TTI predicts that El Nido would still exists even if Chronopolis was erased from the pages of history.

I take back my previous conclusion about Dimensional Travel being preserved. My example doesn't prove it one way or the other. All it demonstrates is that the instance of time travel by the Time Traveller is preserved. Upon returning to his home dimension, it would be perfectly reasonable for him to not meet Dimensional Traveller.

EDIT: Nevermind. I reinstate my conclusion and I think I was right after all. This is complicated and I think I might make a new thread devoted just to the concept of Dimensional Travellers Immunity.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: utunnels on December 20, 2008, 02:11:59 am
Another question, if Chronopolis never exists in HW, how could El Nido islands' civilization be there?
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 20, 2008, 04:19:23 am
Another question, if Chronopolis never exists in HW, how could El Nido islands' civilization be there?

In this case, I believe that Home World and Another World literally share their history before 1010 A.D., and if you were to look at the timeline it would look like a "Y", splitting at 1010 A.D. Evidence for this is that the Dead Sea doesn't appear in Home World until 1010 A.D. (rather than existing there all along), and that Miguel was there for 14 years and remembers the Sea of Eden changing to the Dead Sea.

Now, in the case of the Ideal Timeline, Chronopolis also no longer exists, but because the boundary of the Sea of Eden likely works like a Gate, the passage of the people in Chronopolis through the boundary of the Sea of Eden and the creation of the El Nido Archepelago would be covered by TTI - so the El Nido Islands would still exist.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: utunnels on December 20, 2008, 04:31:38 am
Quote
In this case, I believe that Home World and Another World literally share their history before 1010 A.D.
Yeah, that's what I used to think. But since the ghosts of the trio said they no longer exist in HW, for some reason they failed to save the world from Lavos(which caused the future destruction), unlike in AW, they did. So it doesn't seem the 2 worlds share same history before 1010...
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 20, 2008, 04:51:35 am
Quote
In this case, I believe that Home World and Another World literally share their history before 1010 A.D.
Yeah, that's what I used to think. But since the ghosts of the trio said they no longer exist in HW, for some reason they failed to save the world from Lavos(which caused the future destruction), unlike in AW, they did. So it doesn't seem the 2 worlds share same history before 1010...


Well, Lavos would likely have to be defeated in 1999 AD (despite that the Compendium supports Lavos being defeated in 12000 BC). But if you think about it, Lavos' arrival in 1999 AD would be covered by TTI, so even if they defeat Lavos in the past...he would still appear in 1999 AD.

So, I was always under the impression that in Home World where the ruined future has returned, that this was because of events that happened in the future. I was also under the impression that the three "ghosts" are not literally ghosts of Crono, Marle, and Lucca, but some sort of manifestation of the Entity. Or a cheap plot device. It really doesn't make sense otherwise.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: utunnels on December 20, 2008, 05:04:27 am
The Entity...yeah, that makes sense.

Hmm, I remember I read somewhere the world(not sure HW or NA) is not based on the fall of Guardia completely.
But, personally, I think that's just a possibility.

When Crono defeated Lavos and returned to his own era, did El Nido islands already exist(somewhere in the sea)? I've no idea, but I remember in DS version, you can't ride the Epoch anymore...strange.

 :picardno Forget it, I misremembered that...

--------------------

So there's no such change on the map at all.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 20, 2008, 06:02:24 am
Naw, there would have to be another intermediate timeline anyways when after Crono and co. first return to their time there is no El Nido Archepelago. It is in this timeline that Lucca and Belthesar would plan Project Kid, which would create another timeline in which El Nido exists.

Cross' plot is very complex. I don't think it's explicitly stated in the game that Guardia fell in both timelines (I may be wrong about that though) but the fact that the Masamune exists in both worlds and that Porre is a major military power and that Radius and Viper were somehow involved in "events on the mainland 15 years ago" in both worlds strongly implies it.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: utunnels on December 20, 2008, 06:15:24 am
Yeah, so as DBT Magus said, there're countless time lines as there are countless possibilities...

I used to have a feeling that, you never change the future, instead, you only go into anther branch.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Chocobo_Fan on December 20, 2008, 08:49:54 am
Does anyone realize that the whole plot of CT is pretty much pointless, since if Lavos is protected by TTI, no matter what they do, they won't be able to stop him?

This is why I think Square thought about the story itself more than the mechanics of time travel. I'll bet they said "Oh, hey, how about we make a game with time travel? That would be cool, right?" then focused on the story itself, without really paying attention to time travel mechanics...

(Or should I make another thread about that? Hm)

But yeah, this is confusing. >.< Whenever I read stuff in the Time, Space, and Dimensions forum, I struggle to understand maybe the first few posts or so, but then my eyes cross and everything starts going over my head. x_x

Well, the point is, (I think) that Lucca doesn't die, yet Dalton is still protected by DTI, so the Fall of Guardia still happens, and Marle and Crono may or may not still die... So we will still need a third game to resolve this. (If it even talks about the Fall at all, grumble grumble...)

Is that correct? Or did I read something wrong?

(Also, does anyone notice that "Brake" means "to stop"? Perhaps the episode with the Chrono Trigger and reviving Crono is foreshadowing something in Brake. Perhaps someone prevents the Fall by travelling on a Time-Error-Error, by stopping or reversing time... That's what some people think, anyway)
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: utunnels on December 20, 2008, 09:14:48 am
TTI/TD/whatever are just fan theories...
 Yeah, square might not think them too hard. In CT, Marle just disappears when Leene is in danger, and the end of the game, Lucca states that Robo probably won't be produced in the new future.
Those reveal that they didn't consider multiple time lines, at least before CC or CTDS.
Everything is simple and clear, you change something in the past so the future is changed as well(and all those side quests are all such things...).
 :picardno
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 20, 2008, 12:35:24 pm
Quote
In this case, I believe that Home World and Another World literally share their history before 1010 A.D.
Yeah, that's what I used to think. But since the ghosts of the trio said they no longer exist in HW, for some reason they failed to save the world from Lavos(which caused the future destruction), unlike in AW, they did. So it doesn't seem the 2 worlds share same history before 1010...


The do share the same history but... In 1000AD there was only one dimension. So, only one version of Crono and Co. could appear to defeat Lavos in 1999AD.  Another world represents the original timeline in which Schala did not intervene and Serge died.  So, Crono and Co. only appeared through the gate to 1999AD in Another World, leaving Home World for dead.   Even better is that because of this, we know that no version of Crono ever ended up in the bright future - making a small case for Time Bastard, if you think about it.
Does anyone realize that the whole plot of CT is pretty much pointless, since if Lavos is protected by TTI, no matter what they do, they won't be able to stop him?
This is why I think Square thought about the story itself more than the mechanics of time travel. I'll bet they said "Oh, hey, how about we make a game with time travel? That would be cool, right?" then focused on the story itself, without really paying attention to time travel mechanics...

(Or should I make another thread about that? Hm)

But yeah, this is confusing. >.< Whenever I read stuff in the Time, Space, and Dimensions forum, I struggle to understand maybe the first few posts or so, but then my eyes cross and everything starts going over my head. x_x

Well, the point is, (I think) that Lucca doesn't die, yet Dalton is still protected by DTI, so the Fall of Guardia still happens, and Marle and Crono may or may not still die... So we will still need a third game to resolve this. (If it even talks about the Fall at all, grumble grumble...)

Is that correct? Or did I read something wrong?

Lavos's last instance of known time travel is when he permanently breaks PD at 1999AD when he rises.  So, TTI or not, those moments between his arrival and his destructive attack on the world  are when he can be killed to create a bright future.  We indeed see that Crono and Co. arrive on the scene just as he is rising, so everything checks out.

TTI only protects the instance of time travel, not the events that occur immediately afterward.

So, bicker and speculate about TTI this and TB that as we may, I have a feeling the developers didn't create the game with those things in mind, which pretty much makes all of those arguments pointless... x_x

They most certainly did not, I'm sure. But, they created a coherent story in which time paradoxes and time duplicates do not exist. So whether they intended to have TTI or TB or not, they (or something very much similar to them) have to be present to account for the lack of paradoxes.

Just for fun, try to create a simple time travel story yourself in which paradoxes and duplicates do not exist (using the canon explanation of sending futures to the DBT every time time travel occurs). You can't do it without TTI or TB or something very, very similar. Somehow past versions of time travellers have to be removed and present versions have to be preserved. Otherwise the entire story would fall apart.

So I think it's safe to say that we can have a good discussion about the ending of Cross with TB and TTI firmly in place. Otherwise we can't have a meaningful discussion at all.

That said, the question of whether or not dimensional travel is covered by TTI is a good one. But remember, Dalton came from 12000 BC and eventually ended up in 1000 (or so) AD. Regardless of whether or not he did dimensional travel as well, his appearance in 1000 AD should still be covered by TTI.

But just for fun let's try to figure out whether or not it would be necessary to cover dimensional travel by something like TB and TTI (DB and DTI perhaps?). I've never done it before so it should be interesting. I'll make a simple thought experiment and see if dimensional travel creates paradoxes. Here we go:

Two dimensions exist which are parallel to each other in time. In Dimension 1 a man called Dimensional Traveler exists in the timeline. In Dimension 2 he was never born. A person called Time Traveller was born in Dimension 2 and may or may not exist in Dimension 1 (doesn't matter).

Dimension 1: Time X: Dimensional Traveller goes to dimension 2 via some dimensional gate.

Dimension 2: Time X: Dimensional Traveller appears in dimension 2. Time Traveller meets Dimensional Traveller, decides he is an asshole, and travels first to Dimension 1 with the intent of going back in time to kill his grandfather so he never exists.

Dimension 1: Time X+1: Time Traveller arrives in dimension 1, goes back in time to X-100.

Dimension 1: Time X-100: Time Traveller kills Dimensional Travellers grandfather, changing history in Dimension 1 so that Dimensional Traveller never crosses the dimensions to Dimension 2, then travels back to the present in Dimension 1 and goes back to his home dimension of Dimension 2 at Time X+2.

Dimension 2: Time X+2: Time Traveller returns to his home dimension anticipating that Dimensional Traveller wouldn't be there. Does he meet Dimensional Traveller, or not?


Quite a thinker, eh?

EDIT: I have reinstated my conclusion that dimensional travel is covered by "Dimensional Bastard" and "Dimensional Traveller Immunity". It would have to be, as in my example a paradox would occur. One might think that the paradox would be taken care off by the actions of Time Traveller being preserved by TTI alone, but his original dimensional crossing to Dimension 1 would have to be preserved as well.

Thanks for the thought provoking thread!

chrono eric, you sir - are correct-ish.   TTI gets rid of the paradox yes, but if the original crossing was not preserved, he would meet his double in his own dimension who chose to never traverse dimensions.   Since we hate doubles, Dimensional Bastard needs to exist.

DTI like TTI, however, would only cover the instance of dimensional travel and the "gate's" contents, so events could be changed.  But your example doesn't really necessitate it.  Because...

Just like TB, the "travel" never needs to happen for counterparts.  Once they reach Time X where the original did "travel", the counterparts will simply vanish.  So while we have a case for "DB" ,  the first instance of dimensional travel doesn't technically have to be preserved, as long as doubles are done away with.
This means that DTI doesn't need to exist, looking at this example at least.

EDIT: spelling haha  :D
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 20, 2008, 05:51:35 pm
 TTI gets rid of the paradox yes, but if the original crossing was not preserved, he would meet his double in his own dimension who chose to never traverse dimensions.   Since we hate doubles, Dimensional Bastard needs to exist.

Ah I was so hung up on the paradox problem and preserving Time Travellers original crossing into Dimension 1 and subsequent Time Travel that I forgot about the double in Dimension 2! Yes, that makes perfect sense.

As for DTI however, would it not have to exist as well to preserve Time Travellers original crossing? It seems rather counterintuitive that it wouldn't, but that Time Traveller would still appear in X-100 protected by TTI anyways. But I suppose there is nothing that requires it to be so.

My entire example revolves around using time travel to create both a paradox and a duplicate of Time Traveller. Dimensional Travel alone would not create a duplicate or a paradox. But since DB is still required to prevent dimensional duplicates in the case of Time Travel, I wonder if DTI is still required to preserve timeline information in the case of time travel as well.

So let me make another example (just off the top of my head again). This example is slightly more complicated. In this example I call one person "Dimensional Traveller" and the other "Time Traveller" for sake of simplicity even though they both travel through time and the dimensions:

There are two dimensions, Dimension 1 and Dimension 2 that are parallel to each other in time. In Dimension 1 a terrible event happens in 600 AD that also happens in Dimension 2 in 600 AD. A Time Traveller from Dimension 2 first travels back in time to 600 years ago in Dimension 2, altering Dimension 2's future by his presence, and then crosses over to Dimension 2 (likewise at 600 years ago), where he stops the terrible event in Dimension 1 but not Dimension 2 - thus altering Dimension 1's future. A Dimensional Traveller from Dimension 1 then crosses to Dimension 2 and travels back in time 600 years 1 minute before Time Traveller arrives due to TTI and kills Time Traveller. If DTI does not exist, then the future in Dimension 1 should not be altered because Time Traveller would not appear there. Let's see:

Dimension 2, Time X: Time Traveller goes back to 600 years ago.

Dimension 2, Time X-600: Time Traveller crosses over to Dimension 1.

Dimension 1, Time X-600: Time Traveller stops the terrible event from happening in Dimension 1, altering it's future in the process.

Dimension 1 (new future timeline), Time X: Dimensional Traveller crosses over to Dimension 2 and travels back in time 600 years - 1 minute.

Dimension 2 (new future timeline), Time X-600-1 minute: Dimensional Traveller appears and awaits Time Travellers arrival by TTI. When he arrives, he kills Time Traveller. Does this action alter the future in Dimension 1, or not?

Well, if DTI does not exist then the future of Dimension 1 will be altered. Dimensional Traveller may still appear in X-600-1 minute because of TTI (DTI may not be required even though he appears in another dimension). If DTI does exist then the future in Dimension 1 is preserved and the only way to change it would be to kill Time Traveller in Dimension 1. So what's the answer?

This is a very interesting situation. I can't find a reason why DTI would have to exist at all because TTI accounts for the appearance of time travellers in other dimensions regardless of their original crossing of that dimension. It's the act of appearance that is preserved. Hell, if time travellers can appear out of nowhere from dead timelines as is the case with TTI, then I see no reason why DTI would be required in this case.

The only thing I could think of is that the Conservation of Energy rationale applies here too, and that DTI would have to exist on those grounds. But since dimensional travel doesn't seem to create paradoxes by itself, I see no reason why it DTI would have to exist in that light.



Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 20, 2008, 08:46:20 pm
Dimension 1, Time X-600: Time Traveller stops the terrible event from happening in Dimension 1, altering it's future in the process.

Dimension 1 (new future timeline), Time X: Dimensional Traveller crosses over to Dimension 2 and travels back in time 600 years - 1 minute.

Dimension 2 (new future timeline), Time X-600-1 minute: Dimensional Traveller appears and awaits Time Travellers arrival by TTI. When he arrives, he kills Time Traveller. Does this action alter the future in Dimension 1, or not?

Well, if DTI does not exist then the future of Dimension 1 will be altered. Dimensional Traveller may still appear in X-600-1 minute because of TTI (DTI may not be required even though he appears in another dimension). If DTI does exist then the future in Dimension 1 is preserved and the only way to change it would be to kill Time Traveller in Dimension 1. So what's the answer?

This is a very interesting situation. I can't find a reason why DTI would have to exist at all because TTI accounts for the appearance of time travellers in other dimensions regardless of their original crossing of that dimension. It's the act of appearance that is preserved. Hell, if time travellers can appear out of nowhere from dead timelines as is the case with TTI, then I see no reason why DTI would be required in this case.

The only thing I could think of is that the Conservation of Energy rationale applies here too, and that DTI would have to exist on those grounds. But since dimensional travel doesn't seem to create paradoxes by itself, I see no reason why it DTI would have to exist in that light.





Well,  TTI needs to exist because if it didn't,  one could go back in time and change the past so that the time travel event would never occur.  Dimensional travel wouldn't work the same way in these examples because you are only changing where you are located in terms of space and not time. However...

lets see:

I will call Time Traveller "A" and Dimensional Traveller "B".

A travels back from D2: Time X  to D2: Time X-600
A's appearance there is locked and will always happen no matter what.
A then travels from D2: Time X-600 to D1: Time X-600.
A's appearance there is NOT locked and can be overwritten.
In D1: Time X, Time Error Y+1 , B goes back to D1: Time X-600-1min,
B's appearance there is locked and will always happen no matter what.
B kills A.
D1's future will change back to how it was before A's original intervention.

Why?  No DTI involved.   A appears in his own dimension 600 years in the past no matter what.  With the same intentions he always had, he crosses dimensions to prevent the tragedy.  In Time Error Y+1,  B  will kill A before A can change the future (again), thus sending the bright future to the DBT.  So from Time Error Y+1 and onward, the bright future of Dimension 1 will never exist because B will always emerge from the gate to kill A   and A will always emerge from the 600AD gate in Dimension 2 with conviction to enter Dimension 1.   Even if a third party was involved - say to go to Dimension 2: X-600 to stop A from traversing Dimensions,    B (under TTI) would still always appear and would simply wait for someone who would never show.

I've thought about a few examples, and I can't find one that creates a paradox, mostly because dimensional travel only leads to the same Time X, so no paradox can ever be created -  and any time travel issue is countered by TTI.

We need an example where time travel + dimensional travel creates a situation where even TTI would not avoid a paradox.   


EDIT: Alright I think I've got it.


Professor A invents a Time Travel "gate key" and can open time gates anywhere.
Then, 10 minutes later, he invents a machine that creates a Dimensional Vortex that exists in all time periods (like CTDS) and is fixed in place, and can only exist if the machine is operational.
Professor A can lay time gates perfectly on top of the Dimensional Vortex to use both simultaneously.
Professor A indeed uses his devices simultaneously, immediately after both are invented.

From Dimension 1, Time X,   Professor A travels to  Dimension 2, Time X-10.
There, he tells a resident, Person B, to traverse dimensions  to Dimension 1 and kill Professor A before all means of extra/other spatial travel were invented.   

Person B at D2: Time X-10 travels  to     D1: Time X-10 and kills Professor A just seconds after Time Travel is invented.  Dimensional Travel is never invented.

Now lets add  "1" to Time Error and play this through again.

A (time) gate will open in Time X-10 no matter what.   But where?     Time portals will always open no matter what because of TTI.  So if no dimensional travel can exist, the second time things happen, the will portal open in Dimension 1, instead of Dimension 2.  Which means Professor A (who, by TTI, will always remember inventing dimensional travel as well) will appear 10 minutes into the past, meet the counterpart of Person B and tell him to cross dimensions to kill Professor A.  Professor A will be shocked to see that the dimensional vortex no longer exists.   (If the machine is rendered inoperable, the vortex ceases to exist in all time periods.  like how the CTDS  portals only exist in all time periods for Time Error Y+1 after they are created at Time Error Y.)

That means that no version of Person B crosses dimensions (NOT time) to kill Professor A.  If DTI did not exist  this would create a loop because if Person B can't kill Professor A, then dimensional travel will exist --  but then Person B would now be able to kill Professor A, negating the existence of dimensional travel - and so on.

Good call chrono eric,  Dimensional Traveller Immunity exists.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 21, 2008, 05:39:13 am
Yes, that was a much better example. Interesting though that the paradox only arises because the dimensional vortexes (vortices?) exist in all time periods simultaneously. With basic dimensional travel across dimensions without time travel, it's impossible to create a paradox, and then all paradoxes that are created can be accounted for by TTI except in your example.

I've found nothing on the Compendium site in articles and nothing in previous threads in the forum that demonstrate a 'proof' of DTI and DB. Perhaps we should suggest updating the "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel" article?
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 21, 2008, 01:16:23 pm
Yes, that was a much better example. Interesting though that the paradox only arises because the dimensional vortexes (vortices?) exist in all time periods simultaneously. With basic dimensional travel across dimensions without time travel, it's impossible to create a paradox, and then all paradoxes that are created can be accounted for by TTI except in your example.

I've found nothing on the Compendium site in articles and nothing in previous threads in the forum that demonstrate a 'proof' of DTI and DB. Perhaps we should suggest updating the "Principles of Time and Dimensional Travel" article?

Sure, it was a pretty fun discussion.   8)   I saw some people up there talking about "if TD is killed, dimensional stuff will cease to exist so how does lynx do what he does"  etc.  and we can now try to plug this idea into those examples and see what happens.

I, myself, haven't played CC in years so my knowledge is too low to actually apply it.  So I hope you can  :D
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 21, 2008, 06:13:15 pm
Yeah this discussion was definitely the most fun one that I've participated in on the forums. Thanks Eske!

Well, I think the Compendium's article on "Chrono Cross Resolutions" is highly flawed anyways. I made up my own ending theory which is much more concise in this thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6439.0

But now I'll have to modify it slightly to account for DB and DTI. Basically, I concluded that TB and TTI would not be preserved in the unified timeline after 1010 A.D. if a time travel event happened in one timeline but not the other, because hopeless complications would arise. I imagine DB and DTI would be the same thing (ex: Another Vann never dimensionally travelled, but Home World Vann did. So does Ideal Vann disappear at the time of Another Vann's travel across the dimensions, or not?). If we go by the Compendium's classic conservation of energy rationale, then in the new Ideal Timeline after 1010 AD individuals would disappear and not reappear if DB was kept in place, but only if the travel took place by an individual in one dimension but not the other.  So you're left with energy actually being destroyed and not conserved (even if DTI makes that individual appear later on, that energy still isn't conserved in the interval). Quite a lot could be elucidated about the potential ending of Cross and the nature of the Ideal Timeline if this is correct.

Maybe we could debate this now for fun?  :D
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 12:28:21 am
Yeah this discussion was definitely the most fun one that I've participated in on the forums. Thanks Eske!

Well, I think the Compendium's article on "Chrono Cross Resolutions" is highly flawed anyways. I made up my own ending theory which is much more concise in this thread:

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6439.0

But now I'll have to modify it slightly to account for DB and DTI. Basically, I concluded that TB and TTI would not be preserved in the unified timeline after 1010 A.D. if a time travel event happened in one timeline but not the other, because hopeless complications would arise. I imagine DB and DTI would be the same thing (ex: Another Vann never dimensionally travelled, but Home World Vann did. So does Ideal Vann disappear at the time of Another Vann's travel across the dimensions, or not?). If we go by the Compendium's classic conservation of energy rationale, then in the new Ideal Timeline after 1010 AD individuals would disappear and not reappear if DB was kept in place, but only if the travel took place by an individual in one dimension but not the other.  So you're left with energy actually being destroyed and not conserved (even if DTI makes that individual appear later on, that energy still isn't conserved in the interval). Quite a lot could be elucidated about the potential ending of Cross and the nature of the Ideal Timeline if this is correct.

Maybe we could debate this now for fun?  :D


When the dimensions split, Home World does not receive the benefit of Crono and Co.'s time travel exploits.  In other words, Lavos still rises in 1999AD to destroy the world.   Only Another World preserves TTI.   This is  because only one copy of Crono and Co. could travel to 1999AD to destroy Lavos.    So we see that splitting dimensions can take away TTI/TB but... I would still think that putting dimensions back together in an ideal timeline would result in ALL TTI events being preserved.   

DTI/DB..... don't know.

I don't recall CC well enough to give examples, unfortunately.  I need to work off an example that someone else presents   :D
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: killercactus on December 22, 2008, 09:27:21 am
I will add something to your guys' discussion on this - we aren't sure Lavos is killed in 1999 AD.  In fact, I thought the site was now supporting the "Lavos is killed in 12000 BC" theory, as the Black Omen path to Lavos seemed to be the most canon.  If that is true, we don't know that the dimensional split preventing Crono from appearing is what causes the ruined future, since Lavos is killed before the split.  All we know is that Serge's survival causes Home World's future to be ruined, and that Kid's time travel to save Serge (not Schala's intervention) causes the split.  Remember, Schala intervenes in 1004 or something - the dimensions split in 1010, when Kid saves Serge.  Serge is only significant because he is the Arbiter, and I can only think of two reasons why his survival would cause a dimensional split instead of a normal new timeline.

1) When Serge contacted the Frozen Flame, it created a bond between himself and the TD (much like Schala's, but far weaker, since he only touched a piece of Lavos).  Since the TD's mind is half bent on destroying the world and half bent on saving it, and something connected to the TD survived, the dimensions split into one that was saved, and one that was destroyed.

2) Normally, FATE has the ability to keep time under control.  However, since Serge is alive in Home World and is the Arbiter of the Flame, FATE cannot control it's impact on past events.  Therefore, when FATE arrives in 12000 BC from the Time Crash, it can't control the effect it has on future events and somehow prohibits Crono & Co. from killing Lavos in that dimension.

I'm not quite sure what that says about DTI and DB, but it might mean that Home World's existence doesn't prove it..
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 22, 2008, 11:50:26 am
2) Normally, FATE has the ability to keep time under control.  However, since Serge is alive in Home World and is the Arbiter of the Flame, FATE cannot control it's impact on past events.  Therefore, when FATE arrives in 12000 BC from the Time Crash, it can't control the effect it has on future events and somehow prohibits Crono & Co. from killing Lavos in that dimension.

Actually, FATE 'arrived' in 7,600 BC, not 12,000 BC. Being in 2,400 AD at the Time Crash, and 'sent' 10,000 years back in time:

10,000 - 2,400 = 7,600
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 12:52:04 pm
I will add something to your guys' discussion on this - we aren't sure Lavos is killed in 1999 AD.  In fact, I thought the site was now supporting the "Lavos is killed in 12000 BC" theory, as the Black Omen path to Lavos seemed to be the most canon.  If that is true, we don't know that the dimensional split preventing Crono from appearing is what causes the ruined future, since Lavos is killed before the split.  All we know is that Serge's survival causes Home World's future to be ruined, and that Kid's time travel to save Serge (not Schala's intervention) causes the split.  Remember, Schala intervenes in 1004 or something - the dimensions split in 1010, when Kid saves Serge.  Serge is only significant because he is the Arbiter, and I can only think of two reasons why his survival would cause a dimensional split instead of a normal new timeline.

1) When Serge contacted the Frozen Flame, it created a bond between himself and the TD (much like Schala's, but far weaker, since he only touched a piece of Lavos).  Since the TD's mind is half bent on destroying the world and half bent on saving it, and something connected to the TD survived, the dimensions split into one that was saved, and one that was destroyed.

2) Normally, FATE has the ability to keep time under control.  However, since Serge is alive in Home World and is the Arbiter of the Flame, FATE cannot control it's impact on past events.  Therefore, when FATE arrives in 12000 BC from the Time Crash, it can't control the effect it has on future events and somehow prohibits Crono & Co. from killing Lavos in that dimension.

I'm not quite sure what that says about DTI and DB, but it might mean that Home World's existence doesn't prove it..

Don't forget that the Black Omen did not "rise from the sea" in 12,000BC.  It phased in from an enormous gate, as mentioned in the game.  It also displays some PD-like qualities.  We have no idea when it initially rose or what time period it truly connects to, if any.

Also, even if the Compendium holds that 12,000BC was when Lavos was killed - Lavos's appearance in 1999AD outside of his PD will be spared by TTI no matter what.   No version of Lavos killed before or after 1999AD has anything to do with the Lavos who does appear in 1999.   The Compendium can't hold 12,000BC without giving up features of PD and/or TTI.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: killercactus on December 22, 2008, 01:46:03 pm
2) Normally, FATE has the ability to keep time under control.  However, since Serge is alive in Home World and is the Arbiter of the Flame, FATE cannot control it's impact on past events.  Therefore, when FATE arrives in 12000 BC from the Time Crash, it can't control the effect it has on future events and somehow prohibits Crono & Co. from killing Lavos in that dimension.

Actually, FATE 'arrived' in 7,600 BC, not 12,000 BC. Being in 2,400 AD at the Time Crash, and 'sent' 10,000 years back in time:

10,000 - 2,400 = 7,600

I can't find on the site right now where it explains this, but I know that it's at least discussed in the Salt for the Dead Sea article - it's been proposed that the Time Crash actually threw Chronopolis back to 12000 BC instead of 7600 BC.  I believe it had something to do with Lavos being awoken during the Ocean Palace disaster, which is when he was supposed to have done the pulling.

EDIT:  I also think it's mentioned somewhere that Lavos did it specifically to mess up Crono and Co., who were present in 12000 BC.

Imagine then Crono and Co. arriving in 12000 BC to board the Black Omen, and seeing Chronopolis there.  I'm sure they would go to investigate it.  FATE, being locked out of the flame, cannot stop them.  Something happens to them there, and they die or are trapped like Miguel. 

Also, Eske, I've always thought of the Omen like the Sea of Eden - an entire 3D area of space-time connected to the same geographical points in the other eras.  We know that it was built in 12000 BC, and no matter where you enter it, it is the same.  Perhaps the geographical area that the Black Omen hovers over in 12000 BC is connected to that same area in each subsequent era and, whenever someone enters it, they are transported back to 12000 BC. 

EDIT: Also, I don't think Lavos' emergence in 1999 AD is protected by TTI or DTI.... we aren't Time Traveling within Lavos' PD, we're traveling within Crono's dimension.  If we go back in time in Crono's dimension, then enter the PD and kill Lavos, Lavos hasn't time traveled at all.   So, I don't know if he's granted TTI
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 22, 2008, 02:53:04 pm
I don't recall CC well enough to give examples, unfortunately.  I need to work off an example that someone else presents   :D

Here's a hypothetical example for you  :D. Try to reconcile it with what we know about TB and TTI. You'll see that the same problems arise with TB and TTI after 1010 AD as they do with DB and DTI after 1010 A.D.

Two dimensions exist, Home World (x) and Another World (y). When they fuse together at the end of Cross we get Ideal World (xy). The present date is 1020 A.D. and the split occurred in 1010 A.D. Presumably the timeline is shared before then in both dimensions, and both dimensions share all TTI/TB instances before then as well.

In Home World exists a Time Traveller X, in Another World exists his doppelganger, Time Traveller Y. Due to certain circumstances beyond his control, in Home World Time Traveller X goes 5 years back in time but in Another World he does not time travel at all. Some independent event then happens which alters the future of Home World again, but not Another World. Now, within the self-contained timeline of Home World, you have an event wherein Time Traveller X vanishes due to TB in 1020 A.D. and appears due to TTI in 1015 A.D. In Another World Time Traveller Y does not vanish or appear at all.

Now we know from the script of Chrono Cross that the Chrono Cross literally fuses the dimensions and fuses the consciousness of the inhabitants of those dimensions. That means that in the Ideal Timeline you now have a third individual, Time Traveller XY, that is different from the previous two.

So what happens now in the Ideal Timeline history? Does Time Traveller XY disappear in 1020 A.D. and reappear in 1015 A.D. as Time Traveller X did before him? Or does he not disappear as Time Traveller Y did before him? I propose that he does not disappear due to TB and reappear due to TTI because he is literally a different person than Time Traveller X. The TB and TTI events involved Time Traveller X. Time Traveller XY, despite looking identical, is as different from Time Traveller X as Time Traveller Y is.

By this reasoning, I deduce that TTI and TB events are not preserved after 1010 A.D. in the Ideal Timeline if they happened differently in both dimensions. If the same time travel event happened in both dimensions after 1010 A.D. (ie: if both Time Traveller X and Y time travelled and in the same fashion), you'll notice that this problem doesn't arise.

And the most enticing part about this theory: If you make the assumption (based on logical reasoning) that TTI, TB, DTI, and DB are not preserved after 1010 A.D. in the Ideal Timeline, it actually creates an "ideal" sequence of events! Try to do it yourself or look at my timeline in the other thread. Furthermore, it passes Occam's Razor far, far better than does the Compendium's Chrono Cross Resolutions article.


Imagine then Crono and Co. arriving in 12000 BC to board the Black Omen, and seeing Chronopolis there.  I'm sure they would go to investigate it.  FATE, being locked out of the flame, cannot stop them.  Something happens to them there, and they die or are trapped like Miguel. 

Yes, but remember that this exists in an intermediate timeline before the dimensions split in a Time Error sense. What I mean is that Chronopolis is first sent back in time, and then when 1010 A.D. rolls around the first time the dimensions do not split but Serge still dies. Then, Kid is sent back in time to save him, which only then creates the split in 1010 A.D.

Thus, the two dimensions likely share an identical history before 1010 A.D., and this demonstrates that Chronopolis' appearance is not enough to stop Crono and co. from saving the world.

And besides, Lavos exits his pocket dimension in 1999 A.D which means he would be subject to TTI there. While the Black Omen is the canon path, they are probably transported to 1999 A.D. at the end of it where they fight Lavos.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 03:35:24 pm
You are right in that Person XY will not be subject to Time Bastard in 1020AD. He is literally a different entity now. But I still think that Person X will appear in 1015AD.

It sounds strange, but take a look:

If I go back in time and kill Crono before he can ever go to the Millennial Fair, he will still appear in 600AD no matter what.

If I go back in time and kill Crono's mother before Crono is born, he will still appear in 600AD no matter what.

If I go back in time and destroy the world in 50000BC.  Crono (poor guy) will appear in space in 600AD no matter what.

In 1020AD, Person X and Person Y will have their consciousnesses merged, as the game suggests - so Person X, as we know him, ceases to exist.

But Person X should still appear from the gate in 1015AD, no matter what.

Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 22, 2008, 03:42:01 pm
Hmm interesting point. I'm not sure if it applies fully though since the Crono examples all have to do with an individual timeline.

I think that if person X appears in 1015 AD, and person XY does not disappear due to Time Bastard in 1020 A.D., that we will have a violation of the conservation of energy, which is used partially as rationale for TB and TTI by the Compendium.

But even better: I have to drive to the airport right quick but when I get back I'll edit this post or post again a suitable scenario that would create a paradox if person X did not appear in 1015 A.D. That should prove that TTI would still be preserved but that strangely enough TB would not be.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: killercactus on December 22, 2008, 04:45:29 pm



Imagine then Crono and Co. arriving in 12000 BC to board the Black Omen, and seeing Chronopolis there.  I'm sure they would go to investigate it.  FATE, being locked out of the flame, cannot stop them.  Something happens to them there, and they die or are trapped like Miguel. 

Yes, but remember that this exists in an intermediate timeline before the dimensions split in a Time Error sense. What I mean is that Chronopolis is first sent back in time, and then when 1010 A.D. rolls around the first time the dimensions do not split but Serge still dies. Then, Kid is sent back in time to save him, which only then creates the split in 1010 A.D.

Thus, the two dimensions likely share an identical history before 1010 A.D., and this demonstrates that Chronopolis' appearance is not enough to stop Crono and co. from saving the world.

I think you're missing my point, which is OK because my point is very hard to grasp I think...

When the Time Crash first occurs (lets call that Time Error C, for Crash) and Chronopolis is sent back to 12000 BC, it has full use of the Frozen Flame.  Therefore, it can easily prevent Crono and Co. from investigating it, and manipulate them to preserve the history it has known, which is (in a nutshell) the destruction of Lavos.

Now, fast-forward to Time Error C+13004.  It's now 1004 AD, and Serge is bitten and being taken to Marbule by Wazuki and Miguel.  Schala hears him and blows them to Chronopolis.  Serge is made into an Arbiter, Miguel is trapped and Wazuki corrupted.  Remembering also that FATE has temporal links to itself in other time periods, I'm theorizing that the presence of an Arbiter not only locks the present 1004 AD FATE out of the Flame, but ALL versions of FATE present during any time - even 12000 BC.  So, what do we have now?  Time is in chaos, because FATE has existed for 13000 years and now lacks the ability to keep people oblivious to it.  That in itself could cause a dimensional split if you ask me - one dimension in which FATE keeps everything under control, and one in which it doesn't.  But, then Serge is killed and it doesn't matter anymore - FATE regains access and can keep things cool again.  Maybe Serge's death unified the dimensions?

Now, fast-forward again to Time Error C+13020.  Kid travels back in time to save Serge and, instead of Another World going to the DBT, Home World is just created as an alternate dimension.  Now we have the same situation as before, except that Serge isn't gonna die this time.  FATE is locked out of the Flame all throughout time, so in 12000 BC, it is powerless to manipulate the happenings around it and shield its existence.  So - two dimensions exist - one where Serge is dead and FATE has always been able to control the past, and one where Serge is alive and FATE can't do crap.  That would actually make the histories of Home and Another World different, and thus allows for Crono to fail killing Lavos in 12000 BC only in one dimension.  So, if Serge died, the dimensions would be unified once more, probably just resulting in Another World.  But, the Chrono Cross is used to that Serge can live AND FATE can somehow preserve history.  It's a crazy theory I know, but at least attempts to explain why there was a dimensional split and not just a new timeline.

And besides, Lavos exits his pocket dimension in 1999 A.D which means he would be subject to TTI there. While the Black Omen is the canon path, they are probably transported to 1999 A.D. at the end of it where they fight Lavos.

Maybe - I'm still not convinced Lavos gets TTI when coming from his pocket dimension to 1999 AD.  Is that really a form of time travel?
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 22, 2008, 05:06:03 pm
I still think Chronopolis appears in 7,600 BC.

Quote from: Chronopolis Ghost
It was a remodeling plan that took place 10,000 years ago.

Okay, at the very least, El Nido was created in 7,600 BC.

Well, 8980 BC, if the 10,000 years time is from the moment they are right now, which would be 1,020 AD for the outside world, 11,020 AD to Chronopolis.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 05:16:07 pm
And besides, Lavos exits his pocket dimension in 1999 A.D which means he would be subject to TTI there. While the Black Omen is the canon path, they are probably transported to 1999 A.D. at the end of it where they fight Lavos.

Maybe - I'm still not convinced Lavos gets TTI when coming from his pocket dimension to 1999 AD.  Is that really a form of time travel?

The PD is supposed to be perpendicular to our timeline - so in a sense Lavos has access to all eras.  Its like how whenever Crono and Co. go to face Lavos, he is always fully mature.  That is the only way we will ever see him.  So if he ever leaves the PD, he inserts himself into the timeline.  That is a 5D move right there, so it should be protected by TTI. 
And if anyone would prefer to see it in terms of dimensions rather than time, I've already shown that DTI would have to exist - because in one of my examples above, a paradox would occur if it did not.

The way Crono and Co. time travel is similar - they go through gates that allow them to enter and exit the timeline.  Everytime they do so, they create an event protected by TTI.  Lavos just does things his own way:  instead of creating a gate and going through it, he disables something around him and then re-enables it when he is finished.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: killercactus on December 22, 2008, 06:07:36 pm
I still think Chronopolis appears in 7,600 BC.

Quote from: Chronopolis Ghost
It was a remodeling plan that took place 10,000 years ago.

Okay, at the very least, El Nido was created in 7,600 BC.

Well, 8980 BC, if the 10,000 years time is from the moment they are right now, which would be 1,020 AD for the outside world, 11,020 AD to Chronopolis.

I wish I could find where on the site it talks about this... I think they also postulated that that quote from the ghost was just an estimate, not an actual length of 10,000 years.  Like when someone says "The dinosaurs lived a million years ago" or somethin.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 22, 2008, 06:14:51 pm
Now, fast-forward to Time Error C+13004.  It's now 1004 AD, and Serge is bitten and being taken to Marbule by Wazuki and Miguel.  Schala hears him and blows them to Chronopolis.  Serge is made into an Arbiter, Miguel is trapped and Wazuki corrupted.  Remembering also that FATE has temporal links to itself in other time periods, I'm theorizing that the presence of an Arbiter not only locks the present 1004 AD FATE out of the Flame, but ALL versions of FATE present during any time - even 12000 BC.  So, what do we have now?  Time is in chaos, because FATE has existed for 13000 years and now lacks the ability to keep people oblivious to it.  That in itself could cause a dimensional split if you ask me - one dimension in which FATE keeps everything under control, and one in which it doesn't.  But, then Serge is killed and it doesn't matter anymore - FATE regains access and can keep things cool again.  Maybe Serge's death unified the dimensions?

Now, fast-forward again to Time Error C+13020.  Kid travels back in time to save Serge and, instead of Another World going to the DBT, Home World is just created as an alternate dimension.  Now we have the same situation as before, except that Serge isn't gonna die this time.  FATE is locked out of the Flame all throughout time, so in 12000 BC, it is powerless to manipulate the happenings around it and shield its existence.  So - two dimensions exist - one where Serge is dead and FATE has always been able to control the past, and one where Serge is alive and FATE can't do crap.  That would actually make the histories of Home and Another World different, and thus allows for Crono to fail killing Lavos in 12000 BC only in one dimension.  So, if Serge died, the dimensions would be unified once more, probably just resulting in Another World.  But, the Chrono Cross is used to that Serge can live AND FATE can somehow preserve history.  It's a crazy theory I know, but at least attempts to explain why there was a dimensional split and not just a new timeline.

OK you have worded this much more clearly now. However, I think there are some things wrong with this. The first thing would be the idea that the Arbiter locks out all versions of FATE from all time periods. It's a clever concept to be sure, but we know from Chronopolis that the Frozen Flame has had multiple Arbiters. If every Arbiter locked out all others across multiple time periods, then there could only be one possible Arbiter. And there were many, so I don't think this is what happened unfortunately.

Secondly, the histories in Home and Another World appear to only diverge after the time of the split in 1010 A.D. Due to circumstantial evidence from the game, every significant event that made the two dimensions different occurred after 1010 A.D., and events before 1010 A.D. are mentioned as having occurred the same in both worlds (such as the Fall of Guardia and the Acacia Dragoons having some sort of involvement in that, for example).

This second point is supported and perhaps solidly confirmed by the fact that the Sea of Eden transforms into the Dead Sea only in 1010 A.D., and that Miguel remembers being in Chronopolis for 4 years before that. If the dimensions had been fully split before then (having separate and not shared pasts) then the Dead Sea would have existed all along in Home World's past.

Now on to this:

Going off my original assumption that keeping TTI intact (Eske's idea) while doing away with TB after 1010 A.D (my idea that Eske agrees with) would create a duplication problem. We've already established that TB is likely not preserved in the Ideal Timeline after 1010 A.D. for time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other. Eske proposed that TTI is still kept intact in the Ideal Timeline (see our discussion above). Now my example will attempt to prove why this produces a duplication problem.

Hypothetical example: Two dimensions, Home (X) and Another (Y) fuse to make one Ideal dimension (XY), and two time travellers, person X from Home World and person Y from Another World that are doppelgangers of each other fuse to create person XY in the Ideal timeline.

In Home World, person X first travels 5 years into the past to Time X-5, Time Error 0. Then he makes another time travel trip to time X-5-10 minutes, Time Error 1. Then he makes another time travel trip to time X-5-20 minutes, Time Error 2, ten minutes earlier.

In Another World, person Y (his doppelganger) never time travels at all.

At Time Error 3 the dimensions fuse to create the Ideal (XY) timeline and as per the script of Chrono Cross the individuals fuse in the two dimensions to create a new individual, person XY. We have already established in a prior post that TB would not be preserved for person XY in the new timeline.

If TTI is still preserved, then at Time X-5 person X will emerge due  to TTI and he will not disappear due to TB. At Time X-5-10 minutes person X will emerge due to TTI and once again he will not disappear. At Time X-5-20 minutes person X will appear again and he will likewise not disappear. Now you have 3 copies of person X and one copy of person XY (whether or not he can be treated as the same individual is irrelevant).

So you see, TB and TTI are like two sides of the same coin. If you have one, you have to have both, and if you do away with one for whatever reason, you do away with both.

So I stand by my original assertion that after 1010 A.D. in the new timeline, time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other will not be preserved by TB or TTI or DB or DBT (see reasoning from a previous post).

Your thoughts, Eske?

EDIT: On second thought I don't see a reason why Person X couldn't still be subject to TB (the reason why person XY isn't is obvious), so I'm not too sure about my conclusion now. I'll still leave my example up for discussion though. Regardless, if person X and person XY can be the same person speaking in terms of matter and energy, then this would still create a duplication problem even if person X only appears once.

Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 22, 2008, 06:36:30 pm
Sorry for the double post, it keeps screwing up whenever I try to edit my post for some reason.

I've thought a little bit about this, and the problem is analagous to normal instances of TTI and TB in that a version of a time traveller that appears due to TTI and the one that disappears due to time bastard are not the same person at all. In a single timeline (X), they can be thought of as person X (the one that appears from the original timeline due to TTI) and person X' (the one who exists in the new timeline X' that is shafted because of TB).

The difference in this case is that when the dimensions fuse to become XY it creates a conundrum for time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other. Person XY is not the same person as person X, but person XY couldn't disappear due to TB. But does person X still appear then? This problem cannot be answered in terms of thinking about duplicates or paradoxes because person X and person XY do not necessarily have to be considered matter-energy copies of each other.

The only way to answer this is by thinking about a TTI event as a preservation not just of an individuals appearance in time but also in space and in a particular dimension.

In my original example, person X from Home World (dimension X) will never appear due to TTI in Another World (dimension Y) because he never crosses the dimensions. The TTI event is associated with a particular space and time and dimension. Now, dimension XY (Ideal World) is as different a dimension from dimension X (Home World) and dimension Y (Another World) and the Keystone dimension that it came from. It has a Time Error axis different from all three.

So in that respect, TTI would not be preserved for person X in the new dimension. I think that's the answer, and that you must think of TTI events as having an association to a particular time, space, and dimension. I don't think he would appear as per Eske's proposal. Thoughts, Eske?
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 07:02:05 pm
Hypothetical example: Two dimensions, Home (X) and Another (Y) fuse to make one Ideal dimension (XY), and two time travellers, person X from Home World and person Y from Another World that are doppelgangers of each other fuse to create person XY in the Ideal timeline.

In Home World, person X first travels 5 years into the past to Time X-5, Time Error 0. Then he makes another time travel trip to time X-5-10 minutes, Time Error 1. Then he makes another time travel trip to time X-5-20 minutes, Time Error 2, ten minutes earlier.

In Another World, person Y (his doppelganger) never time travels at all.

At Time Error 3 the dimensions fuse to create the Ideal (XY) timeline and as per the script of Chrono Cross the individuals fuse in the two dimensions to create a new individual, person XY. We have already established in a prior post that TB would not be preserved for person XY in the new timeline.

If TTI is still preserved, then at Time X-5 person X will emerge due to TTI and he will not disappear due to TB. At Time X-5-10 minutes person X will emerge due to TTI and once again he will not disappear. At Time X-5-20 minutes person X will appear again and he will likewise not disappear. Now you have 3 copies of person X and one copy of person XY (whether or not he can be treated as the same individual is irrelevant).

So you see, TB and TTI are like two sides of the same coin. If you have one, you have to have both, and if you do away with one for whatever reason, you do away with both.

So I stand by my original assertion that after 1010 A.D. in the new timeline, time travel events that happened in one dimension but not the other will not be preserved by TB or TTI or DB or DBT (see reasoning from a previous post).

Your thoughts, Eske?



*takes gloves off* lol.

X in D1 = Y in D2
Y remains stationary
X, at TE 0 remains stationary. Dimensions split and reunify and nothing happens differently.
X, at TE 1 enters a time gate to Time X-5.
X, at TE 2 enters a time gate to Time X-6
X, at TE 3 enters a time gate to Time X-7
X, at TE 4 is eliminated because dimensions reunify.

Alright, I just simplified it for myself there, now lets see:

All I said is that XY was not subject to TB.  But that doesn't mean the others aren't.

At Time Error+5:
X will appear in X-7.  He will vanish when he is combined with Y --  7 years later.
X will appear in X-6.  He will vanish when he does or should have entered the gate to X-7. (TB'ed)
X will appear in X-5.  He will vanish when he does or should have entered the gate to X-6. (TB'ed)

Why?   At Time X, when the dimensions reunify, X and Y will combine if they are available.  If only one is there, only that one will be in the ideal timeline. If neither are there, they will both remain dead.

The problem arises when X travels to the future.  He can only travel to the future of his dimension (much like how Crono could only travel to Another World's future).   
But that's all I have so far.  I need some more time, haha

I will find a way   8)



Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 22, 2008, 07:13:26 pm
Yeah you always simplify my examples to make them better  :D.

I think, however, that my proposal in my second post that TTI events are associated with a particular time, space, and dimension is very important and likely will answer this problem.

To use your format:

At TE 0 there is one dimension (Keystone for simplicity, or dimension K)

At TE 1 there are now two (split from the one) - Another World (dimension Y) and Home World (dimension X)

At TE 2 there is now one dimension again (Ideal Timeline) - dimension XY, not dimension K again.


When the dimensions fuse they become a completely new dimension because they are associated with a different TE axis. ie: dimension K does not equal dimension XY.

I believe this is important in the case of time travel events that occurred individually in either dimension X or dimension Y.

I'll restate my example from my above post in a simpler format like this:

A TTI event is associated with a particular time, space, and dimension. When person X time travels to the past in dimension X, he never appears due to TTI in dimension Y because X is a different dimension from Y, and because TTI events are associated with a particular dimension.

By that reasoning, dimension XY is a different dimension from both X and Y and the TTI event should not be preserved there either.

Note that this holds ramifications only for dimension XY (Ideal World) after 1010 A.D. since the nature of the split suggests that the two dimensions share their history with Keystone (dimension K) before 1010 A.D., thus preserving TB and TTI events before then and Crono and co.'s time travelling adventure.

Also note that the nature of the split suggests that Crono and co's future time travelling events (appearing in 1999 A.D, 2300 A.D) are probably preserved in Another World since the future is still saved, and so Another World can potentially be viewed as the same dimension as dimension K (keystone), not a separate dimension Y, and Home World (dimension X) is an offshoot of it.

Either way you want to look at it (this way is slightly better as it explains why time travel events are preserved in one dimension but not the other after the split), my example still works.

EDIT: Shit! I just realized that this concept has huge ramifications for unravelling parts of the plot of Chrono Cross. This could be an entire thread by itself! It directly explains why Crono and co. can't save the future in Home World - because it's impossible for them to appear there due to TTI being associated with a particular dimension!
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 08:18:01 pm
Yeah you always simplify my examples to make them better :D.

I think, however, that my proposal in my second post that TTI events are associated with a particular time, space, and dimension is very important and likely will answer this problem.

To use your format:

At TE 0 there is one dimension (Keystone for simplicity, or dimension K)

At TE 1 there are now two (split from the one) - Another World (dimension Y) and Home World (dimension X)

At TE 2 there is now one dimension again (Ideal Timeline) - dimension XY, not dimension K again.


When the dimensions fuse they become a completely new dimension because they are associated with a different TE axis. ie: dimension K does not equal dimension XY.

I believe this is important in the case of time travel events that occurred individually in either dimension X or dimension Y.

I'll restate my example from my above post in a simpler format like this:

A TTI event is associated with a particular time, space, and dimension. When person X time travels to the past in dimension X, he never appears due to TTI in dimension Y because X is a different dimension from Y, and because TTI events are associated with a particular dimension.

By that reasoning, dimension XY is a different dimension from both X and Y and the TTI event should not be preserved there either.

Note that this holds ramifications only for dimension XY (Ideal World) after 1010 A.D. since the nature of the split suggests that the two dimensions share their history with Keystone (dimension K) before 1010 A.D., thus preserving TB and TTI events before then and Crono and co.'s time travelling adventure.

Also note that the nature of the split suggests that Crono and co's future time travelling events (appearing in 1999 A.D, 2300 A.D) are probably preserved in Another World since the future is still saved, and so Another World can potentially be viewed as the same dimension as dimension K (keystone), not a separate dimension Y, and Home World (dimension X) is an offshoot of it.

Either way you want to look at it (this way is slightly better as it explains why time travel events are preserved in one dimension but not the other after the split), my example still works.

EDIT: Shit! I just realized that this concept has huge ramifications for unravelling parts of the plot of Chrono Cross. This could be an entire thread by itself! It directly explains why Crono and co. can't save the future in Home World - because it's impossible for them to appear there due to TTI being associated with a particular dimension!

The do share the same history but... In 1000AD there was only one dimension. So, only one version of Crono and Co. could appear to defeat Lavos in 1999AD.  Another world represents the original timeline in which Schala did not intervene and Serge died.  So, Crono and Co. only appeared through the gate to 1999AD in Another World, leaving Home World for dead.   Even better is that because of this, we know that no version of Crono ever ended up in the bright future - making a small case for Time Bastard, if you think about it.

Yep I know lol ( just had to be a jerk  :lol: )

But if you add dimension to time traveling coordinates that means that Crono and Co. never defeat Lavos in 1999AD in the Ideal Timeline.

--

RU = Reunification

My idea is this:  When the dimensions reunify, what do they do with the extra information?  Only parts of Persons A and B will be kept when their consciousnesses merge, so what happens with the rest?   Matter cannot be created or destroyed, so when the dimensions fuse together, some information must be sent to the DBT.  Personality traits, scars, memories, etc.

If Person B remains stationary and Person A travels to the past - whether or not Person A dies in the past or lives to the RU point is inconsequential, as I stated in my previous post.

If Person A travels before the RU point and ends up in the future after the RU point, they will be sent to the DBT as they arrive in this future.

why?

I say that when the dimensions combine, counterparts combine and some value (say 50/50) is preserved from each.
In the above case, Person A is missing during RU and only Person B becomes the new entity  Person AB.

Person AB = Person A (0%), Person B (100%)

So when Person A appears in the future, he will literally be extra information.  That violates Conservation, so I propose that like the "splicing" that goes on during RU,   Person A will be sent to the DBT simultaneously as he arrives in the future.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 22, 2008, 08:55:23 pm

Yep I know lol ( just had to be a jerk  :lol: )

But if you add dimension to time traveling coordinates that means that Crono and Co. never defeat Lavos in 1999AD in the Ideal Timeline.


Well at least I think my explanation gives a solid theoretical reason why he wouldn't appear, instead of just "there's only one copy of them" which I've always felt was lacking.
 :D

You raise an interesting point here though. I didn't think that through all the way (that's the good of discussions!). My explanation would certainly mean that Crono and co. would not appear in 1999 A.D. to defeat Lavos if that is truly when it happens. But interestingly, if Lavos is protected by TTI, then it means that Lavos himself wouldn't even emerge in 1999 A.D. to destroy the world if you think about it! The only way he would still destroy the world in my scenario is if he re-emerged from his pocket dimension as a new time travel event. Which adds another layer of complexity to things...especially if placidchap is correct from another thread around here that the pocket dimension doesn't even exist anymore in the current timeline. If that is so, then Lavos would not emerge and the future would still be saved!

But the concept itself is solid I think. There would have to be a dimensional coordinate to TTI events.

Think about that in the meantime. As for the rest of what you said...I'll comment on that after I think about it and grab some much needed grub.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 09:22:55 pm
Ah but if Lavos can't appear in 1999AD then Home World's future wouldn't be threatened either.

As for my example earlier let me make it more clear.

Every point on the timeline is like a completed puzzle.  Every piece has to be accounted for eventually.
At the RU point, Person A was in the midst of travelling to the future, so one piece of the puzzle is missing. Thus the new Person AB is now made up of entirely Person B.   The structure of the puzzles from this point on change to only support Person AB and not the counterparts that create him.
So, every subsequent moment marches on and with each moment new, completed puzzles are created.
Finally, in the future, a puzzle is created with an extra piece. This piece is Person A.  This piece is no longer needed and is thus discarded - but now all puzzle pieces from all puzzles are accounted for again.

Its like TB/DB, in that it prevents extra information.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: killercactus on December 22, 2008, 10:48:57 pm
I can't remember exactly what happens in Cross, but are we sure that Belthasar doesn't appear in 2300 AD Home World?  He's the only other person I can think of that would be protected by TTI in the future.  I don't seem to remember him in Home World - only Another World.

And, about Arbiters - we don't have proof that anyone was an Arbiter to the Frozen Flame besides Serge.  There are theories that Schala and even Belthasar were, but nothing else.  It's the only special thing I can come up with about Serge - other than that, he's just some kid.  There must be a connection between his Arbiter status and the dimensional split beyond that it was the reason he died.  His survival only means one thing - that FATE is locked out of the Flame again at least in the present in Home World, and that leads to the destruction of the world by Lavos.  But, I guess that discssion is for another thread.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Acacia Sgt on December 22, 2008, 10:54:07 pm
Look at the Dead Sea. Would Belthasar will be able to do something in that near-frozen place?
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 22, 2008, 10:54:39 pm
I can't remember exactly what happens in Cross, but are we sure that Belthasar doesn't appear in 2300 AD Home World?  He's the only other person I can think of that would be protected by TTI in the future.  I don't seem to remember him in Home World - only Another World.

And, about Arbiters - we don't have proof that anyone was an Arbiter to the Frozen Flame besides Serge.  There are theories that Schala and even Belthasar were, but nothing else.  It's the only special thing I can come up with about Serge - other than that, he's just some kid.  There must be a connection between his Arbiter status and the dimensional split beyond that it was the reason he died.  His survival only means one thing - that FATE is locked out of the Flame again at least in the present in Home World, and that leads to the destruction of the world by Lavos.  But, I guess that discssion is for another thread.

I haven't played the game in awhile so I don't know where Belthasar appears.  But if its only in Another World, it supports chrono eric's theory:  No TTI events after 1010AD were preserved in Home World/Ideal Timeline.    If Belthasar appears in Home World, then we have more issues.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 23, 2008, 01:48:14 am
I haven't played the game in awhile so I don't know where Belthasar appears.  But if its only in Another World, it supports chrono eric's theory:  No TTI events after 1010AD were preserved in Home World/Ideal Timeline.    If Belthasar appears in Home World, then we have more issues.

Belthesar only appears in Another World, and only three times - first when you meet him in Viper Manor and then later on in the "illusion" manor in Terra Tower, and then right after that atop Terra Tower. However I don't necessary think it supports my theory, as any number of things could have happened to Home World's Belthesar.

Now, moving on:

Clearly there are some problems with the concept of TTI/TB when working with creating new dimensions, we just have to work out the reasoning behind it. It's clear now that my example was flawed, but the fact remains that one would have to explain why the TTI events would be present in a new dimension. But first let's address Eske's theory as it's less troublesome.

I'm going to try to simplify it even more so that it's easier to work with. The reason why I'm doing this is because I'm not so sure the conservation of energy rationale even applies to this in the first case. So let me greatly simplify the problem with the following hypothetical example of creating two dimensions from one and then unifying them again. In my example is a hypothetical universe composed of only three parts that exist in time.

There is one dimension, composed of a timeline that contains only three parts (for simplicity). Call them Part A, Part B, and Part C. It exists at Time Error 0.

At Time Error 1 the dimension (dimension K) is split at a point SP (Split Point). Before the split point the dimensions share the same timeline and after the split point the timelines diverge into two dimensions - X and Y. Dimension X is really just a continuation of K, and Part's Ax, Bx, and Cx = Parts A, B, and C but have been renamed for simplicity later on. Everything is duplicated after the split point, such that you have the following case:

                                                                                       -----> Dimension X (continuation of dimension K): Part Ax, Bx, Cx
At Time Error 1: Dimension K,  Parts A, B, C -------> SP ---->
                                                                                       -----> Dimension Y: Part Ay, By, Cy



In this example, matter and energy have not been conserved at all. Everything has been duplicated. This indicates that in the Chronoverse, the problem of conservation of energy and matter isn't really that important - only when dealing with time travel in a single dimension. Each dimension is like a self-contained universe, and matter-energy conservation is important within it but not between it. So, the major reason why DB and DTI exists is not because of conservation of mass/energy but solely to prevent paradoxes.

Now, at Time Error 2 the dimensions are reunified at the reunification point (RP), which for comparison's sake (to Chrono Cross) necessarily equals the split point (SP). So RP=SP in time and you have this situation. Notice that the two dimensions only merge after the RP and before then can still technically be viewed as belonging to Dimension K.


At Time Error 2:  Dimension K,  Parts A, B, C --------> RP ------> Dimension XY: Parts Axy, Bxy, Cxy


Notice that in this case energy and matter have not been conserved either. The multiverse is back to the original amount of matter and energy it had, but it is still half as much as what existed at Time Error 1. The only thing that is different is that after the point RP the composite parts of the universe undergo a transition. They literally become different.

So, this clearly shows that matter/energy composition is not important when you are talking about multiple dimensions and probably not even for dimensional travel. It's only important for time travel within the dimensions. So I'm not so sure it's that important for Eske's example, but Eske may still be 100% correct.

This should help make both mine and Eske's theories easier to interpret. Let's do Eske's first and I'll do mine in a later post. Both theories attempt to understand what happens to TTI in the case of a dimensional reunification around the RP:

Eske's theory (schematic represenation, simplified to have the same format as above):

                                                                                              Dimension X:  Part Ax, Bx, Part C emerges at time x (only in this timeline)
Dimension K,  A + B, Part C time travels to the future  ---> SP ---->
                                                                                              Dimension Y: Part Ay, By (Cy is missing)

Here you have an example where Part C time travels to after the SP. Since dimension X is a continuation of Dimension K, Part C emerges there. Since everything was doubled after the SP, Part Cy is missing from dimension Y. You can see that matter/energy is conserved in Dimension K/X (the continuation of K), but not in Dimension Y as it has already been deemed unnecessary.

Now for the reunification:

Dimension K,  Parts A + B, Part C time travels to the future ---> RP ---> Dimension XY: Parts Axy, Bxy, Part C emerges due to TTI

Now, since the RP = SP in  this example (and in Chrono Cross), the dimensions are reunified at the original point of the split and the Parts of the two dimensions that exist at that point become merged. Part C was not present in either dimension X or dimension Y at the SP so it does not merge. In the future dimension XY, part C emerges due to TTI.

In this example, dimension XY is not the same dimension as dimension K (this is what is implied in Cross). So the dimension actually undergoes a dimensional shift in identity per se at the Reunification Point. But this is a unique case in which dimension K and dimension XY appear to occupy a continuity on the same timeline. I think it's likely then that TTI and TB would be preserved in certain cases in accordance with the conservation of matter/energy.

So in this case, I don't think Part C will be shafted to the DBT, I think it will still emerge due to TTI after the RP. Thoughts, Eske?

PS: Let's try to keep this same format unless you can think of a better one. It seems to make things a lot easier, at least to me anyhow.

EDIT: I'll make another post illustrating my example of TTI/TB and DTI/DB not being preserved after the split using this format. I can already tell it will be a lot easier to figure things out this way.

***What is very important about this example is that it clearly shows two important things about the story of Cross: 1) Home World's future is destroyed because Crono and co.'s time travel event is not preserved in that timeline by TTI and 2) When the dimensions are re-unified Crono and co.'s time travel event is reinstated, thus saving the future again! It's perfect. The only minor problem with it is that Lavos' time travel event would not be preserved in Home World either, but if the pocket dimension theory falls apart (seems like it's going to), Lavos could be viewed as existing physically within the planet's core, in which case he would be duplicated at the split point and still emerge in Home World's future.

Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 23, 2008, 01:36:56 pm
Cool.

Alright if Conservation doesn't reeeeallyy matter, then yes, Part C's appearance would have TTI. 

And yes, PD just doesn't work - it seems like its just there to explain a few gameplay quirks that aren't really an issue to begin with.

But, while TTI is preserved, I still think Conservation would be preserved.  That is the point of TB.  TB doesn't prevent a paradox (maybe it can but you cant have a paradox in the Chronoverse anyway), it prevents your double approaching Time X from meeting you in the newly arrived Time X-400. 

In CC, even though people traverse dimensions, Conservation still works, just in a more overall system. (like how Conservation works across time periods to reconcile Crono adding himself to 600AD - he is "missing" in 1000AD.)   When someone "adds" themself to another dimension they "subtract" themself from this dimension.

In the above example, Part C appears to subtract himself from both Dx and Dy, but that is not the case - look at what happens in Home World/Another World with Crono:  Crono never appears in HW's future.  If he appeared in both, it would be creating a new Crono, adding new information.  lets continue...

Now you said above that creating a copy of a dimension is like adding matter, so it doesn't preserve Conservation.  Yet, Kato has hinted through the games (especially now with CTDS with Eclipse Magus's quote) that:

"There are as many worlds as there are possibilities."

Its a Multiverse.     So here we see that something new can created with each possibility.

However , in each universe (or between each universe) Conservation should still be kept (as in the Crono HW example)

If we were to break down TB into really simple numbers it would be like this:

At Time Error 0   Time X-Y (+0),  Time X (+0)     No time travelling
At Time Error 1   Time X-Y (+1),  Time X (-1 )     Unit travels into the past

Unit A travels to Time X-Y.  Balance is preserved.  As his counterpart, Unit B, approaches Time X   Unit B will cease to exist.  This is because he would not bring the value to -2 because he is supposed to disappear at Time X and appear at Time X-Y.  But Unit A is STILL at Time X-Y, so sending both there would create:

At Time Error N   Time X-Y (+2),  Time X (-1)   No Time Bastard.        <---- Wrong

So anything that would make the universal balance a positive number will be banished to the DBT.

Now lets apply it to dimensional RU:

                                                                                                           
                                                                                                             Dimension X:  Part Ax, Bx, Part C emerges at time x (here)
At Time Error N: Dimension K, Parts A+B, C time travels to future -> Sp ->
                                                                                                             Dimension Y: Part Ay, By (Cy is missing)

So we have:   DX: (-1), DY: (0)    There is no Cy, there never was.

Now the balanced is restored in the future for Dx at Time Error N,  but if the RU happens at Time Error N+1, the balance is then restored in a different fashion:

Dimension K,  Parts A + B, Part C time travels to the future ---> RP ---> Dimension XY: Parts Axy, Bxy, Part C emerges due to TTI

^^ What you have now is different from the earlier example where Person X time travels after the split.  So it works out a different way.

When the dimensions come together they reconcile Conservation by taking some unknown value from components X and Y. 
It must do this because in the example:  Person X lost an arm in Dimension 1, but lost nothing in Dimension 2, in Dimension 1+2, is there an arm?      So assume it just takes the traits of whatever is considered "ideal", who cares. 
The rest of the unnecessary information is discarded (DBT style).

In Dimension XY, the RU process took  0% of Cx, and 0% of Cy.    So there was a hole there:  C is up for grabs.
   
The (-1) in Dx and the (0) in Dy come together to form a single (-1) for Dxy

So when C emerges in the new timeline, he will become the new Cxy.

BUT if we go to the example in your earlier post where  X time travelled AFTER the split and Y remained stationary, there is a different result.

At the RU point, there will be no hole.   the dimensions will reconcile   Dx (-1), Dy (0)  by accepting all of component Y.

That means that Y's traits are 100% apart of XY and that   X's traits are "discarded"

X is not yet here to discard, but when he arrives at Time X+N..... bam! DBT because he is now extra information.

TTI preserves the event of the gate opening with X inside, it does not preserve X himself.


Think of the Melchior example.....  He already exists in 1000AD so when the 12000BC one enters the gate, he will be TB'ed.  There is NO place for this new information, its slot is already taken up.

This is like being TB'ed, but at arrival instead of upon entry.

Person X was outside of 4D space when the dimensions reformed - its his problem now  :D




Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 23, 2008, 04:46:13 pm
Ah yes assigning numerical values to things makes things even easier than my example! Great job, Eske.

You actually posted in a numerical fashion exactly what I was going to post about time travel after the split. I concluded the exact same thing that you did (it's so much easier to see with the format I made). TTI would not be preserved after the split because it would create extra information. TB would be preserved in a strange sense in that people that emerge due to TTI as extra information will be TB'd away to the DBT. TB in the traditional sense would also not be conserved because it will cause a subtraction of matter and energy that is not balanced since TTI is not conserved.

So it basically confirms my original assumption that TTI and TB would not be conserved after the split, at least not in the traditional sense that we are so used to thinking of. The numerical value system helps explain things a lot and make them easier to work with.

DTI and DB is an easy case after the split. It will not be conserved because a person can't disappear and reappear in the same place at the same time. It creates no problems here, only TTI and TB does.

When I get back I'm going to think of some more examples that might further explain the ending of Cross.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 23, 2008, 05:07:44 pm
Ah yes assigning numerical values to things makes things even easier than my example! Great job, Eske.

You actually posted in a numerical fashion exactly what I was going to post about time travel after the split. I concluded the exact same thing that you did (it's so much easier to see with the format I made). TTI would not be preserved after the split because it would create extra information. TB would be preserved in a strange sense in that people that emerge due to TTI as extra information will be TB'd away to the DBT. TB in the traditional sense would also not be conserved because it will cause a subtraction of matter and energy that is not balanced since TTI is not conserved.

So it basically confirms my original assumption that TTI and TB would not be conserved after the split, at least not in the traditional sense that we are so used to thinking of. The numerical value system helps explain things a lot and make them easier to work with.

DTI and DB is an easy case after the split. It will not be conserved because a person can't disappear and reappear in the same place at the same time. It creates no problems here, only TTI and TB does.

When I get back I'm going to think of some more examples that might further explain the ending of Cross.

Yep  :D  As long as the following are true, I see no problem with your ideas:

Time X = the time when dimensions split
Time Error Y+1 = time error when dimensions split

As long as Person A travels before Time X at Time Error Y  to the future, he will be reinstated, purely as Person A, in the new dimension at Time Error Y+1
If Person A travels after Time X at Time Error Y to the future, he will not be reinstated. Person B will be the only entity to represent the both of them at the time of reunification and Person A will be sent to the DBT upon arrival in the future.

^^ And that's all.  TTI is preserved technically, but no longer creates any issues.  If the above are true, nothing is violated and your theories fit in with TTI/TB    8)
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 23, 2008, 05:59:43 pm
I think that you made a slight error right here though:

If Person A travels after Time X at Time Error Y to the future, he will not be reinstated. Person B will be the only entity to represent the both of them at the time of reunification and Person A will be sent to the DBT upon arrival in the future.

^^ And that's all.  TTI is preserved technically, but no longer creates any issues.  If the above are true, nothing is violated and your theories fit in with TTI/TB    8)


The reunification occurs at the RU which = Time X which = the split point SP. The dimensions are reunified only at that point and then the new future extends from there. At Time X, both Person A and Person B still exist. Person A only exits the timeline after Time X. So, at Time X = RU the dimensions fuse and Person AB is created (50% A/50% B). But at a certain time when Person A originally emerged in the timeline, you would end up with this situation:

Person AB (50% A/50% B) plus Person A exiting due to TTI (100% A) which would create an imbalance. Person A would be TB'd away at that moment, leaving only Person AB.

It's a minor difference to what you originally said, however it has importance for what I'm about to consider.

The Ending of Chrono Cross:

So now we can truly apply these ideas to come up with a very plausible ending scenario for the Ideal Timeline in cross. So let's recap what we've proven in this thread already:

1) DB and DTI exist but they will not be preserved after the RU.

2) TTI and TB will not be preserved after the RU in a traditional sense when a time travel event happens in one dimension but not the other. Individual unusual cases have to be evaluated. Any extratemporal counterparts to the "fused" counterparts in the Ideal Timeline are shafted to the DBT upon re-entering the timeline.

3) TTI and TB will be preserved after the RU if the time travel event spans either side of the RU point.


In light of these three facts, you can see that the Compendium's article "Chrono Cross Resolutions" is deeply, deeply flawed. It makes a huge number of assumptions without attempting to prove anything about the mechanics of time and dimensional travel as we have. There is not even a single hypothetical proof of DBT and DB on this site except for the discussion we have had here.

So let's try to figure out what happens at the end of Cross. Now, as I stated above, the dimensions are reunified at the RU which = the split point SP. They aren't reunified like a "zipper", but rather the original act of splitting them is undone and a new future stretches out from the RU point.

All the hard parts have already been done by us. The following logic is very simple and I don't think it requires a diagram of any kind:

At the SP point, almost every single character of Cross has both an A and a B version. None of them have undergone their dimensional adventure yet. So at the RU point, almost every single character of Cross will fuse to create an AB version in the Ideal Timeline. This is fine, except for the two characters at the DBT and Serge.

Serge's case: At the RU point Serge A is dead and Serge B is alive. Serge AB will be composed of (0% A/100% B). The Serge B at the DBT is 100% B. If Serge B attempts to return from the DBT at any time on the timeline you would have an imbalance of 200% Serge B. Serge B that we all know and love from the story would therefore be wiped from existence. But this isn't so bad as we find out in a bit!

Companion's case: The companions with Serge at the DBT face a similar dilemma. Their counterparts after the RU point are Companion AB (50% A/50% B) and they are either Companion A or B 100%. They would likewise be wiped from existence upon trying to return from the DBT.

What is awesome about the predictions made by our theory is that this is completely in line with what Schala tells them at the end of the story.

All of the characters would forget their adventure. For Serge and co. it is as if it never existed. But wait! There's hope still. This is ghost Crono's line from Cross in Terra Tower when talking about how the Chrono Cross actually works:

Quote
   

   Crono:

   It has the power to cross
   space and time and unify
   people's thoughts and feelings...

   It has the power to
   transfer memories...


So, Serge remembers his adventure at the end of the story - we know this. But why? The Compendium states that the version of Serge on Opassa Beach is TB'd out (it's actually DB'd but no biggie) - however, we have proven that this cannot be the case. So how can the new Serge AB remember the adventure of Serge B? I propose that it was a function of the Chrono Cross. It transferred Serge B's memories to Serge AB at the original time of the dimensional crossing. Hell, it may have done that with Kid and all of his other companions as well.

This is the same conclusion that I reached in the other thread I made but now we have the hard evidence to back it up. Our theory also supports the text and evidence from Chrono Cross 100%. The only thing not accounted for is Serge's memories, which can easily be explained by the function of the Cross (text provided in-game) rather than complicated TB/TTI situations (not provided in-game) :D

This also leads directly to the creation of an "Ideal Timeline", which I will address in the next post after Eske has a chance to point out any areas that I went wrong at so they can be addressed.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 23, 2008, 06:27:57 pm
Ah yes, you're right, I was assuming that the Sp and Ru points were different lol.  But it does work out the same way   :D

Well, everything checks out as far as I can see, I guess its time to present it to the Compendium - I'll let you handle that  8)
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 24, 2008, 04:43:52 am
Well, everything checks out as far as I can see, I guess its time to present it to the Compendium - I'll let you handle that  8)

LoL, I don't even know how to go about that. Or even how I will organize all this together. You helped tremendously so I say it's your responsibility too, dammit  :D.

Now for the grand finale of our discussion, a much more concise sequence of events for the "Ideal Timeline" in Cross than that given by the Chrono Cross Resolutions article:

To reiterate the three points we have proven already-

1) DB and DTI exist but they will not be preserved after the RU.

2) TTI and TB will not be preserved after the RU in a traditional sense when a time travel event happens in one dimension but not the other. Individual unusual cases have to be evaluated. Any extratemporal counterparts to the "fused" counterparts in the Ideal Timeline are shafted to the DBT upon re-entering the timeline.

3) TTI and TB will be preserved after the RU if the time travel event spans either side of the RU point.


Character fates:

Serge - Serge XY is created at the RU point. Serge from the DBT does not re-emerge in the timeline as per our theory. He is eliminated. Serge XY does not disappear due to TB as per our theory. He regains his memories because of the Chrono Cross.

Belthesar - Our theory predicts that Belthesar will emerge in 2300 AD and see a bright and shiny future as usual. He would not find that Schala is bound to the Time Devourer and he would not start the sequence of events to initiate Project Kid (even though everything associated with Project Kid is still preserved under TTI in the past). However, the Belthesar from during the game could possibly have escaped to the End of Time to watch the events unfold and still exists as well.

Robo - Robo would never partake in Project Kid and would presumably live out his life with Atropos in 2300 AD.

Misc. characters - According to our theory, everyone would become fused with their counterparts at the RU point and would not remember the adventure as Schala predicted. However, it's possible that the Chrono Cross could transfer their memories to at some point. It would seem a shame that they would miss out on the personal development they underwent during their quest.

Dragon Gods - The Dragon Gods are a mysterious case. It's possible that the Dragon Gods would all exist within the El Nido archepelago until 1010 A.D. FATE's power over them is transferred across the boundary of the Sea of Eden, and this is normally protected by TTI. But after 1010 A.D. TTI events that happened in one world but not the other are not preserved. So presumably the Dragon Gods would be free to become the fused Dragon God once more after the RU point and Terra Tower would reawaken. This is what is most predicted by our theory. What significance this has for the fate of the El Nido islands is unknown.

Harle - Harle was created in 1004 A.D. before the RU point. At the RU point she becomes Harle XY. (50% Harle X/50% Harle Y). Harle Y in Home World dies in the Dead Sea in the game, but this does not happen in the Ideal Timeline. Since all TTI/TB events after the split are not conserved, our theory predicts that Harle XY continues on living her life freely. An ideal situation, if you will.

Kid - Kid is an interesting case and requires further analysis. When Kid travelled back in time to save Serge it was a time travel event that spanned the RU point but it also assisted in creating the dimensional split. Let's see what happens to Kid in the ideal timeline:

                                                                                                                            Dimension X:  Kid (X) time travels to the past to save Serge
Dimension K,  Kid (X) Emerges at Time X, young Kid (X) exists in the past  ---> SP ---->
                                                                                                                            Dimension Y: Kid (Y) does not time travel

To slightly modify Eske's numerical example. Dimension K/X has a value of +1, -1 = 0. Dimension Y has a value of 0. All matter is conserved.

After reunification:

Kid XY exists after the RU point but does not disappear due to TB as per our theory. That means that Kid X appears before the RU point, but she is not extra information until the RU point. This means that at the RU point is when she would be TB'd away. Depending on the true origin in time of the dimensional split, which Cross is hopelessly ambiguous about, this could mean that Kid does not save Serge from drowning, which is important for the next character - Wazuki/Lynx.

Dimension K,  Kid X appears due to TTI but is sent to the DBT and does not save Serge ---> RP ---> Dimension XY: Kid XY does not disappear due to TB as per our theory

Dimension K/XY numerical value - 0. Matter is conserved.

Wazuki/Lynx: So, because Kid does not appear to save Serge from drowning, and because Serge is obviously still alive in the Ideal Timeline, this means that Wazuki/Lynx never attempted to kill Serge by drowning in the first place. This means that either Wazuki never transforms into Lynx, or he does but is not guided by the RoF. The transmissions of the RoF would stop transmitting at around the time of the original split due to TTI not being preserved after the RU point. This leads to the following sequence of events.


Predicted sequence of events for the "Ideal" timeline:


- All story-related events up until the split would be subject to TB/TTI, including Serge and Wazuki re-emerging from the Dead Sea.

- After the RU point in 1010 A.D., the Records of Fate would suddenly become inactive, because their transmissions are not preserved by TTI/TB. Events pertaining to the lives of normal people would presumably proceed similar to Home World.

- After 1010 A.D., Wazuki would presumably not turn into Lynx as a biological terminal for FATE because FATE no longer exists, or he might but would not be controlled by FATE since the RoF transmissions don't exist. He would not attempt to kill Serge. Lucca would not be abducted and the orphanage would not be burned.

- It was Lynx that manipulated the Porrean government and the Acacia Dragoons, not the Records of FATE. Without Lynx around, Porre would not invade El Nido and the Acacia Dragoons would still rule the islands.

- In 1020 A.D., Serge regains the memories of the adventure. The Kid/Schala that is probably on the mainland likely also remembers the adventure, and seeks Serge out in El Nido. This would explain why they would get married in the future, because why would they if she didn't remember as well?


Some said it was impossible, some said the ending was too vague. But there you have it, an interpretation of the ending of Chrono Cross that is 100% in line with our new theories on time and dimensional travel and even more importantly the Ideal Timeline is 100% predicted by our new theories on time and dimensional travel. It is much more concise than the Compendium's analysis. All in all, I think it is a great success!

Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 24, 2008, 12:06:50 pm
I feel so productive haha.   This is great, I reread the Compendium analysis just now and I feel that this is a little more airtight.
Most of what we say is based on balancing equations based on the events in the game, which, for me at least, gives off a feel of more credability.
We aren't saying things like "well Person A probably thought this, so he did some things like this to piss off Person B, hence Time Crash!!!"
And that's why I think it survives  the Razor  (you know which one...)    :)       
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 24, 2008, 04:29:33 pm
Yes, what I find particularly awesome is that the "Ideal Timeline" was always assumed to exist because people want happy endings. But such a thing is never mentioned in the script of Chrono Cross. But our analysis actually predicts an "Ideal" sequence of events from the perspectives of the characters. Indeed even from the perspective of the Entity since the Crono and co. time travel event in 1999 A.D. is reinstated via TTI and the future is saved once more.

So now what is the proper way to formally present our ideas to the Compendium for review?

Also, maybe me and you can tackle the Pocket Dimension thing now (perhaps in the other thread that placidchap posted? here http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=4999.0 ) and firmly settle that once and for all. It seems we have a knack for this. Our theories, which are pretty damned good, actually predict that Lavos' pocket dimension does not have true perpendicular time flow like the End of Time does, because our theory predicts that his pocket dimension will be duplicated at the time of the dimensional split. Why? Perhaps we can figure this out.
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 24, 2008, 04:36:44 pm
I don't know how its presented... I was here in 04 and onward under another username when Leebot and Greylensman were still around  - thats when all these articles started coming up as  I recall.  I was even credited for something with Spekkio (under the username Faulce)  :D  but I don't really know how its done.

I'll visit that thread and see what I can pitch in...
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 24, 2008, 04:58:02 pm
Don't be afraid to draw upon our new theories if it requires it  :D. I'm still not convinced that placidchap is correct, something seems...off to me about the theory. But I admittedly haven't given it the thought it deserves.

EDIT: Actually, I see what is bothering me. His theory doesn't really change anything except that time-flow in Lavos' PD is not perpendicular when it makes contact with the time line, which is actually something I have always assumed and it makes 100% sense. But if Lavos exits the PD in 1999 AD permanently, and you destroy the shell there, it should not dissappear in the PD. The PD is like a self-contained timeline. So this doesn't invalidate the PD theory either...

As for the PD duplicating at the dimensional split in Cross, even that makes sense if the PD is considered to be a physical sphere-like object, the surface of which is discontinuous and connected to all points in time. If the entire universe were destroyed, would the PD be destroyed too? This suggests that it would. If the entire universe is duplicated, would the PD be duplicated too? Yes. It's not truly separate from the timeline in the sense that a separate dimension is, even though time flow can be *somewhat* perpendicular for it.

Here's another strange example:

Time X: Person A enters pocket dimension -----------------> Time X+2000: Person B enters pocket dimension

But at what time do each of them appear in the PD? 2000 years apart, or at the same time in the PD?

Drawing from our analysis of the Marle paradox in the other thread, if the PD can be viewed as it's own separate timeline that is still a part of the universe, lets try to answer this question:

The PD is perpendicular to the timeline in the sense that if you fight Lavos in the future and damage him, and then fight him in the past and damage him, the previous damage from your first fight is maintained. Even though you are fighting him in your timelines past, it is still the future for the PD.

So it can be viewed as proceeding along Time Error:

Time Error 0: Fight Lavos at Time X and stick a sword in him. Travel back in time to X-1000

Time Error 1: Fight Lavos at Time X-1000. You find that the sword is still there.

From Lavos' perspective time is flowing along the axis of Time Error. But from what we've been talking about in the Marle paradox thread, two time travellers from the same timeline but at different times can end up at the same point in Time Error. So modifying this example:

Time Error 0: Time X: Person A enters PD. Time X+2000: Person B enters PD.

When do they arrive?

Time Error 1: Both Person A and Person B arrive at the same moment in the PD!

Every moment that passes for them in the PD is like progressing through Time Error. Inside the Pocket Dimension, it is like they are continually time travelling all of the time. This is different from the normal concept of perpendicular time flow in the PD, and I believe it may answer a lot of questions.

Thoughts Eske? Or perhaps we should move this discussion to the other thread?

Edit #2: Is it me, or does looking at time in the PD this way predict that Eclipse Magus is actually from the same timeline as that of Crono and co., and not from a different dimension?
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: Eske on December 24, 2008, 06:23:30 pm
Okay lets get this PD thing straightened out.  First of all lets list all the access points to Lavos and which Lavos they lead to:

1. New Game+ gate on right pod of telepod   Unknown version of Lavos
2. Ocean Palace.         12000BC Lavos
3. Black Omen.          Unknown
4. Bucket at EoT.   Leads to 1999AD Lavos
5. Epoch.    1999AD Lavos


If the shell is destroyed in 1999 and you fight Lavos post-Black Omen, the shell is still destroyed
But he is always intact during the Ocean Palace incident.
Of course, its a gameplay cutscene - but c'mon - its not the ATB meter or numbers over monsters' heads - we can take this as serious indication of something.

The Compendium holds that fighting Lavos through the Black Omen in 12000BC is the most canon path.... where does it say this?

If the Omen sends the party to 1999AD - then we really dont need a pocket dimension, do we?
Title: Re: Time Devourer's defeat undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's death?
Post by: chrono eric on December 24, 2008, 06:38:08 pm
No we don't need one, and I think I have proven this in the other thread. Let's just move the discussion over there for simplicity.

I basically came to the same conclusion as placidchap but using Time Error. There's no way the PD exists in the current timeline. It's impossible. He was right.