Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => Polling => Topic started by: ONSLAUGHT on September 13, 2008, 12:23:35 pm
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I want to know if the game actually forced you to sacrifice one of your teammates, who would you choose?
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Every character in Chrono Trigger serves some distinct purpose. However, if I were to chose one character to go, I think it would be Ayla. Mainly because I hate Ayla. Although she did name Lavos and has the stealing tech, she really doesn't contribute much to the plot, or else her head go boom.
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Marle or Lucca, since both are annoying. But probably Marle, since she's a Mary Sue.
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Marle. Robo & even Frog are better healers & actually have decent magic & attack stats compared to her...and Marle's death would be quite the motivator for Crono as well...
Chrono 4: Crono's REVENGE~!!
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Alright, eliminate marle but who'd kill such a sweet lovable princess? Oh, wait a second...
AZALA
GIGA GAIA
GOLEMS
DALTON
QUEEN ZEAL
YAKRA
YAKRA XIII
ZOMBOR
OZZIE
SLASH
FLEA
HECKRAN
GUARDIAN
ATROPOS
LAVOS
MAGUS
MOTHER BRAIN
...Okay so she has a few not so friendly aquantinces...
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Well, when going by how useful they are to me in combat, it would be either Magus or Ayla. Most likely Ayla though. The main reason I might not get rid of her is because of the part on the black bird. But on the other hand, I like Magus so probably Ayla.
In character, probably either Marle or Crono.
Over all, probably Ayla.
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Everyone loves Frog too much, both in character and in play. :lol:
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Everyone loves Frog too much, both in character and in play. :lol:
Yeah pretty much. He's my first or second favorite character in personality, and I used him the whole game.
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Why does everyone hate Ayla? Ayla, along with Robo, was probably the coolest character ever.
But, Marle, because's she's completely obselete by the time you get Robo. Plus, she's annoying as fuck.
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Personally I liked Marle.
Ayla, just I dunno I liked her but not as much as the others.
Robo, badass. Nuf said.
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Yes, Marle would be more appropriate to kill off. She would drive the story. But then Crono would start angsting about how Marle gave him purpose in life and Lucca would just smile and nod and Ayla would steal all the Materia.
What I'm getting at is that the situation has been overdone and I wouldn't give a damn. Character deaths are meant to drive the story, both with the characters AND the players. If Magus got killed, no one would really care in game. He's a villain. You have the option of killing him! However, I would be devastated. (cue the squealing fangirl side of me)
Essentially, you kill a character, you need to have them be attachable to ALL players and still effect the story. Like Crono. Although I wasn't particularly sad when he died. I was kinda happy. ... albeit a little lost.
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Ayla, because she doesn't contribute much to the story... though, I do like her a lot (physical powerhouse much?) and she's the only character who feeds my rampant kleptomania. That said, I'm an educated man who loved dinosaurs as a child, so "lol dinosaur!" was never my favorite part of the story.
As a side-note, I'm somewhat of the opinion that Magus should never have been in the playable party. Even if Frog elects not to kill him, I'd rather Magus just show up at the end and try to one-up the players by killing of Lavos... failing of course, then maybe assisting the party as his last-ditch effort.
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Nah, after you see all his reasoning & realize why he is why he is, it's impossible not to have him join your party. Killing him with Frog never made sense to me. It won't bring Cyrus back and just makes Frog seem more like Magus than he should be...Magus is the revenger, not Glenn.
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Marle or Lucca but I say marle. Lucca is stronger!
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Tough call between Ayla and Lucca. One I like better in battles, the other in story. (respectively) I'd have to say Lucca, though, since Ayla's got Charm, which is pretty nifty in the Black Omen. (infinte Power Tabs anyone? ^_^ And you can charm some other tabs from monsters there as well, if I recall...) That's the only thing preventing me from getting rid of her, though. T.T And I never really used Lucca. I liked a Crono/Marle/Robo or Crono/Glenn/Robo party much better, and she's useless after you get Magus. I'd really prefer not to kill anyone, but if I had to choose... >.> And I don't see why everyone hates Marle. Cure 2's useless, yes, but I think she's a good character...eh. Have fun killing killing Marle, doesn't really matter to me. :p
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Flare is never useless...it's only behind Luminaire in Magical power.
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Lucca? Useless? I don't think so. Her magic power is one of the best, give her the gold stud, and Flare away.
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I said she's useless after you get Magus. She's a good black mage up until then, but Magus outclasses her in both physical and magical power, I'm pretty sure. (Dark Matter is stronger than Luminaire, for example) You only get Magus late in the game, though, so it's pretty much a trade off. Like I said, going off story alone, I'd dump Ayla without a second thought, but...
And of course, I'd prefer not to kill any of them at all in the first place...
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Just feel like saying, I've tested it before, Luminare is the strongest attack in the game, not Dark Matter. Not including physical attacks of course.
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Strongest attack in the game: Crono, maxed out, Rainbow specs, Rainbow sword, attacking with Confuse.
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Strongest attack in the game: Crono, maxed out, Rainbow specs, Rainbow sword, attacking with Confuse.
True, but is only against one enemy. But it deals mor damage than Luminaire.
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Luminaire deals more damage? You sure? At level ~50, Dark Matter was dealing about 1800 damage, Luminaire about 1700... Of course, Magus has higher stats at that point. I didn't get to level 99 and maxed out stats.
And yeah, with the damage cap, multi-hit attacks can do more damage. Confuse does pretty low damage per hit for me, (~550) but that's at level 50... At level 99 it likely tops Luminaire far more noticeably. The multi-target vs. one target thing isn't really much of an issue, though, since aren't you normally concentrating on one foe at a time anyway...? (Even with the Lavos fight, the right bit is the one you want to focus on...)
Edit: Whoops, confused DM with Luminaire once. >.<
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Luminaire>Flare>Shock>Dark Matter
I didn't even know there were people who didn't know this.
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Did anyone else notice that Robo Tackle is really useful throughout the entire game? It's what took out the Right Lavos Bit for me, only had to do it like, 5 times.
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None of them they are a very special group and everyone is super important and useful at various times, and the game isn't about having one super-powerful person do everything, it's teamwork ;_;
As for the "Marle dying would drive the plot"... Isn't Marle the one that moves the plot along anyway?
But probably Marle, since she's a Mary Sue.
The hell do you mean by that?
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She's a "Perfect Character". I really don't see Marle as being too MS-is, but I can see where Pyt is coming from.
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That's more a product of the times the game was made, isn't it? Most of the cast is Mary Sue by certain terms
[edit]Reading up on it more, Marle does seem very much a Mary-Sue like character...
But being a character in constant search of a true identity, deeper personality, and reason for being, being a Sue is her true tragic flaw! AHAHAHA!
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The only characters I ever used regularly were Lucca, Frog, Crono, and Magus. Marle and Ayla and Robo were rarely in my chosen parties. I liked Lucca in part for her genious character, and in part for her sightscope, so she became a natural addition. Likewise I liked the knight Frog, cliche as he is, more than the cliche princess (what am I saying? They're all cliche... so I guess it comes down to chosing one's favourite cliches!) As time went on, these three were my most powerful. They got their triple tech together. At that point, reverting to the others would have meant a serious decrease in my party's power, so I kept with them.
Until Janus arrived. And yes, I call him Janus. I insist entirely that Magus is not his name, merely a title, which by the Mystics was used as a name proper for lack of anything else. This man casts magic better than us... he is THE Magician, so that's what we'll call him. The Magus. But properly speaking, Janus is not only his true name, but far cooler. It has that old Roman air, and cements him as the second most important character in the series, next to his sister: is is the beginning and the end, and the changes of the story revolve around the fortunes of his family. Not to mention, as Kato said, his is the 'heroic' character. He is, in fact, the most Classical of the heroes of the story. For him to die would be like killing Odysseus at the Cyclops.
And let me add a few things on him. Janus is not dark, per say. He is melancholy, contemplatitive, and sharp, but he is not a dark character, per say. He has not real trace of villainy about him, but he does what must be done. He is not someone worried about popularity, and never cares to have fun times. And here is one thing I find funny about people who think to identify with him... most of the time it's teenagers who identify with him purely from the perspective of being misunderstood or outcast. But these are not the most important aspects of his character. Indeed, I would say his high maturity, ability, and also his incredibly seriousness (in addition self-seriousness), make him who he is. Ironically, these are character traits most young boys playing the game would entirely lack. Very few these days consider being self-serious a virtue, and for all that they may be misunderstood, are typically goofy and outgoing, even if just to mask insecurity. Janus, on the other hand, has not a whit of insecurity, and if he laughs, it's bitter laughs, or derisive ones... but never quite comic. He is gloomy unlike any teenager, but rather has all the melancholy of a scholar (which, indeed, he is!) Just had to say those things about Janus. They ran through my head the other day. I think he's amongst the most mis-appropriated character in video games. So many people consider themselves 'like' him just because it's fashionable to be 'dark'... but bloody rot, unless someone is acting like a fourty year old with a cynical edge, they do not share much in common with him.
Anyway, he's not to die, either. He cannot die. He is, I would argue, the most important hero to the saga.
So for all that, I voted Ayla for the death.
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Not to mention, as Kato said, his is the 'heroic' character. He is, in fact, the most Classical of the heroes of the story. For him to die would be like killing Odysseus at the Cyclops.
I think that there is a strong case to be made that Janus is the hero of Chrono Trigger, and the others simply stumble into his story, even if Magus was initially killed by Poly...by Lavos.
He is not someone worried about popularity, and never cares to have fun times.
This characterization is directly contradicted by the game:
OZZIE: How about it, Magus?
Can't you give him a more fitting
form?
Magus: All right, why not?
There's always time for a little fun.
While I grant that he's not interested in being a popular figure (although he certainly doesn't seem to mind), we have a clear example of where he does something for fun.
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Good point. I stand corrected, in part. However, I might argue that sort of fun is rather a bit of cruel humour, a cynical mark, as is instilled by his upbringing. At any rate, however, I suppose my statements were too strong in light of that.
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You could also argue the point that Ozzie kind of paints him into a corner there. If he didn't change his form, he might have lost face...I think it's most important to him to keep his standing within the ranks of the Mystics so that he can carry on with his eventual summoning of Lavos...It's more than likely that Magus just wanted to kill him to get him out of the way (though it's also possible that he simply didn't think he was enough of a threat especially without the Masamune).
Then again, with a name like Kaeru, he was practically asking for it.
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Kaeru also means "Hero", doesn't it?
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Does it...? I think it's just "frog" & "change"...I'm no Japanese translatatronix machine or anything, though...
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Yeah, I was under the impression that Kaeru meant Frog and change, but if it means hero, then he's totally the greatest named character ever.
And holy crap, I didn't realize there were so many Marle haters until I came to this forum. I suppose killing her off could drive Crono and by extension, the story, but Marle is what got him into this mess. Until he met her, he was just some spiky-haired kid at the fair.
I've never been a fan of Lucca or Ayla, if anyone should be offed it'd be one of them two. Of course, I'm speaking merely from the parts of the story I liked...Both characters have their advantages in battle, but CT was never challenging enough for me to get over my in-game sexism (I rarely used any of the girls in the game: my team would be Crono, Frog, and Robo, until I got Magus, thus Robo gets the boot).
And did someone mention that Magus may just simply be a title? I've always agreed with that, and I believe the re-translation supports that theory: at one point Ozzie introduces his fort as "the Great Magus Vinnegar's place" or something.
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Maou is his untranslated name & it means, like Demon King...So, yeah, that certainly sounds like a title...I don't know if I'd say it's "simply" a title, though as he uses it primarily as his name. Janus/Jaki probably didn't strike the fear or impress very much...or possibly it could be seen as him shedding his prior life by getting rid of his name (which he seems to do again in Radical Dreamers)...
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All the mystics were snickering behind his back about Jaki so he told them "Fine! From now on I am Maou!!!!"
"Maou? What the f*** kinda name is that?"
Magus incinerates them in a fire.
"That kind of name."
And so, he didn't feel the need to change it again because Maou/Magus actually caught on instead of Jaki/Janus. Plus, anyone who'd dare to question his title became Medina's next meal.
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Yeah, I agree that Magus or Maou are far more intimidating than Janus or Jaki, but both Maou and Magus can be titles, which he then took up as his name. I always assumed Ozzie and co. bestowed the name Magus on him, but the idea that he was just shedding his prior life, as V said, sounds pretty Magus-like to me.
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I stand by he just got fed up with them and then when they still made fun of hm he tortured them without end.
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He takes them as names and titles. Nobody called him Bob the Prophet in Zeal, it was always "Prophet" or "The Prophet". He's referred to as "The Magus" in the original localization a couple of times.
He doesn't really go into his own identity so much...
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That sounds pretty accurate--I don't recall every line from the game word-for-word, but now that I think about it, I think I recall them calling him The Magus, and that being his title, up until you met him. Or maybe they referred to him as "the great Magus", or something.
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[Young Man]
The Magus's army destroyed Zenan
Bridge, so the south continent is
inaccessible.
FIONA: Many trees were destroyed in
the war with the Magus's Army.
I try to maintain the forest by
replanting trees, but they all die.
These are in a script I downloaded though, so unless anyone has a save state to confirm, this is speculation...
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Well...there are the Compendium's scripts (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Scripts.html)...
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It's interesting that in the Japanese script and retranslation, Magus loses some of his nasty sense of humor (or, more accurately, it was put into the NA script). The line "There's always time for a little fun" replaced "No act of defiance goes unpunished."
Referring to someone by title only is not uncommon in Japanese, where there are about half a dozen ways to say "you" and they're all rude when talking to a superior so titles are the only recourse.
Another significant change in the Japanese version is that when Magus and Ozzie meet for the last time at Ozzie's Fort, Ozzie said that he wanted to create a "world of the Mystics," not a "world of evil." After reading that, I wondered what Magus gets out of his own sidequest. I doubt he's much of a human/Guardian patriot, and he could have just gotten his gear and left.
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I voted on Magus. Yeah!
He may be an incredible badass character and stuff, but still seems like a useless brat to me.
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I voted on Magus. Yeah!
He may be an incredible badass character and stuff, but still seems like a useless brat to me.
Whoa. Now that's honesty.
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Actually, Magus is more of a liability in your party until he gains some of his final techs. Low attack, and his non-dark magic attacks aren't all that.
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Yeah, but unless you've been power leveling, Tech Point whoring, or managing to steal a lot of Magic Tabs he's going to have the highest Magic stat right away...Plus, his best equipment is pretty easy to get (and he doesn't really have to share with anyone either) & fairly early after you get him...
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Magus, although he was essential for the plot, he just sucked in general for me...Even at max lvl, all techs, max stats. He's just blah.
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Magus, although he was essential for the plot, he just sucked in general for me...Even at max lvl, all techs, max stats. He's just blah.
Quoted For Truth
Not only that, but the game actually gives you this option (by having Frog kill him).
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He has a decent attack, a good enough critical, access to every element and has a good final Magic Tech with Dark Matter, which is only bested by Luminaire, Flare & Shock...Plus, Omega Flare is one of the most powerful Triple Techs (when he works with someone, it's only for maximum damage it seems)...At max stats & all he's the magician middle of the road to Robo's physical & healing middle of the road...
And I still don't think that it really makes any sense for anyone (it doesn't have to be Frog) involved to fight Magus on the cape...even neglecting the fact that him living is canon...
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Magus, although he was essential for the plot, he just sucked in general for me...Even at max lvl, all techs, max stats. He's just blah.
Quoted For Truth
Not only that, but the game actually gives you this option (by having Frog kill him).
Frog only kills him if he's in the party. Plus, he's harder since it's one-on-one. If he's not the party all three fight him.
As for who I would kill off, it would have to be Frog for that damn Shakespeare accent. Give the Grandleon to Crono.
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As for who I wouldn't kill off, it would have to be Frog for that damn awesome Shakespeare accent. Let him keep the Grandleon.
There, fixed your mistake.
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As for who I would kill off, it would have to be Frog for that damn Shakespeare accent. Let Crono keep the Grandleon.
There, fixed your mistake.
Dammit, stop ripping off my moves! :evil:
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I'd get rid of Crono. I get tired of having to use him and hearing how great he is (in the game). After he dies, I revive him and never use him again. I would say he is the (Gary) Sue of the game. The other characters talk about how great he is. He has the strongest single tech magic attack in the game, and now with the new DS game, it seems (based on Chrono Compendium's weapon information) he has the strongest weapon in the game.
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So basically you don't like how everyone's right that Crono is great?
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I gave three reasons, and they don't boil down to only one of the reasons. Also, depending how you play the game, other characters can be just as productive in saving the world...even more so, depending on what you do after Crono dies. In that case, he wouldn't be any greater of a hero than the other character(s).
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Notice that anyone can notice: Marle isn't the most voted on anymore but AYLA now. Shift eh?
Will it shift back?
Will it shift to someone new?
Will it stay with Ayla?
Will a new character be added?
Will a character be removed?
Will this thread hold any extreme significance on the opinions of Square Enix and the next Chrono related game?
Tune in to your local Life Channel and stay tuned to find out!
Also, lookign back at that last post didn't he already(Crono) have the strongest weapon in the game?
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I'd get rid of Crono. I get tired of having to use him and hearing how great he is (in the game). After he dies, I revive him and never use him again. I would say he is the (Gary) Sue of the game. The other characters talk about how great he is. He has the strongest single tech magic attack in the game, and now with the new DS game, it seems (based on Chrono Compendium's weapon information) he has the strongest weapon in the game.
You're pretty much saying, "I don't like Crono because he's the central protagonist and therefore plays the largest role in the story." And also, the main character is more than usually the one towield the strongest weapon.
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Also, lookign back at that last post didn't he already(Crono) have the strongest weapon in the game?
I thought the powered up Masamune was, but I could be wrong.
You're pretty much saying, "I don't like Crono because he's the central protagonist and therefore plays the largest role in the story." And also, the main character is more than usually the one towield the strongest weapon.
No, that's not basically what I'm saying. For one, I never said I didn't like him. I listed three reasons as to why I like him least out of the playable characters. The reasons are...
(1) Through much of the game, I have to use him. I would have preferred being able to pick any team I want. Some of the non-Crono triple techs would be fun to use earlier in the game.
(2) A lot of people within the game talk about his greatness. I know the game isn't really bad with this, and the other characters do get credit from time to time. It still bugs me though.
(3) He has the strong magic attack (and now in the DS, possibly the strongest weapon as well). Personally, I think Magus should have the strongest magic attack and Lucca should have the second strongest. The reason is that they are stronger in magic than with physical weapons. I see Crono as a swordsman first and a magician second, so I think his biggest attack should have to do with the sword. At the very least, if he is suppose to be a magician as much as he is a swordsman, then he should be strong in both, but not the strongest in either of them.
I know there is an explanation for each of those, and I know the explanations. However, they don't change my mind.
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IMO Crono should have the strongest weapon, Magus the strongest spell, and Glenn the best fusion of both.
I want Glenn to have the best fusion b/c of the Grandleon, since it gives me a reason to take him into the Black Omen and use him to pwn the Mammon Machine.
That reminds me. Did they change the name of the Mammon Machine?
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No, they kept the name.
Wish they'd keep Arc Impulse.
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I know. Frost Arc is BS IMO.
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Well, I voted Robo. He does have some pretty hilarious moments, and he is the one that started that whole Entity discussion, but he just isn't as appealing as the rest of the characters.
Honestly, I'm confused as to why Ayla, Marle and Magus have so many votes.
I was five when this game came out. Ayla seemed like the best mother figure in the group, especially after her talk with Marle over the rainbow shell.
As for Marle, RPGs just seem wrong to me without a good supporting caster. Storywise she's loud, forceful, not afraid to help anyone and everyone, and she grows a lot over the course of the game. Add to that the fact that she seems to instigate a lot of the pivotal moments in the game, and you get a character who's too important to whack off.
And as for Magus, well, he seems pretty obvious to me. He is The Magus. He duped the Mystics since childhood and managed to get a psuedo-religion built around him. He made Glenn into the hero the world needed (face it, Glenn would still be a marshmallow if it weren't for the loss of Cyrus). And after the party spent so long trying to kill Magus, he still offers up information to revive Crono. Besides, if you don't take the time to grind to level ** and farm tabs, Magus dishes out more damage than anyone at 2000+ per monster per attack. No faster way to beat the game than popping on a Gold Stud and Dark Mattering your way through the Black Omen.
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After their roles in the story are complete, Frog, Ayla and Magus are all fairly expendable.
The original three should definitely stay. Robo's sensors and scientific ability make him pretty useful. The rest are just sort of there.
And I'd probably want to keep Ayla around because she's part of my ultimate fighting teeeeam.
I only used Magus when Crono was deaded, and I like Frog more...So I think I'll vote Magus.
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Magus- he's boring with his lack of Dual-techs.
But as fun and challenging as it is killing him with Glenn alone at North Cape, it doesn't make sense and doesn't suit Glenn's character either.
On second thought, Crono is also a bit boring, seeing as he doesn't talk. He's however been too firmly engraved in my heard as a central Avatar of the Chrono-series.
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I chose Lucca. I never use her so....
Frog vs. Magus one on one is the only way to do that battle, if you're silly enough to do such a thing.
But yeah that battle is pretty epic.
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I like what they're doing in Kajar with Glenn at Magus' death in the Schala hack. Where he finds that the joy he was chasing in killing Magus wasn't there to begin with.
The Other Promise from Kingdom Hearts 2 comes to mind.
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I chose to kill Ayla, As I used her all of once in the whole game. Well, twice if you count the time she's forced upon you. Although if you kill Ayla, it's entirely possible half of the Charecters would disapeer from existense, so... I like Marle, simply because Crono likes her, and Crono is cool. Without Marle, we have an Angsty Crono, and Final Fantasy did that so many times I hate angst. Like Teaflower said.
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Angst sucks. 'Nuff said.
People think Marle's all that bad, and Crono's only liking her out of pity. I say she has a good head on her shoulders, and that she and Crono made a good king and queen during their reign (assuming they reigned at all).
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I chose to kill Ayla, As I used her all of once in the whole game. Well, twice if you count the time she's forced upon you. Although if you kill Ayla, it's entirely possible half of the Charecters would disapeer from existense, so... I like Marle, simply because Crono likes her, and Crono is cool. Without Marle, we have an Angsty Crono, and Final Fantasy did that so many times I hate angst. Like Teaflower said.
If you get rid of Ayla, who's gonna Charm stuff from people? And w/o Marle, Lucca'd finally get her time to shine! :lol:
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CT is so easy I don't NEED To charm stuff from people. If this was following common Sense, the party would just kill the enemy and take the item that would of been charmed, anyways.
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Need=/=fun! LLG practically require it, too! And too bad your common sense doesn't apply to magic worlds and disappearing monster bodies...:lol:
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I always did wonder about that disappearing body thing. At least it makes sense with Magus' spells (best example; Cyrus catching on fire!)
You 'kill' Slash and Flea once in Magus' castle and they disappear, just like any other monster. Yet you face them later in Ozzie's Fort and they disappear, this time (supposedly) for good. Course, the main characters never disappear when they die. Discrimination, I tell you!
And I still think it sucks that Magus has so many votes here. Without him, there'd hardly be any story!
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Need=/=fun!
QFT.
Presence of Spoilers =/= No point in playing/reading
Also QFT, while at it.
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Presence of Spoilers =/= No point in playing/reading
Also QFT, while at it.
Spoilers don't mean no point in playing, but it does take away a lot of the fun and magic in playing a new game. It ruins the suspense and suspension of disbelief. Some stories are just meant to be told in a certain sequence. Take the story out of sequence, and it just isn't as fun.
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I like what they're doing in Kajar with Glenn at Magus' death in the Schala hack. Where he finds that the joy he was chasing in killing Magus wasn't there to begin with.
The Other Promise from Kingdom Hearts 2 comes to mind.
Oh, that sounds really out of character. It never seemed to me like Frog was under the illusion of having the "thrill of the hunt". He pursued Magus to avenge his best friend, and to defend his Queen, King, and homeland- all of which should still have meaning later on. Once you find out about Lavos and Magus' motivations, it doesn't make much sense to kill him.
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Precisely. And, the "no joy" thing comes after he has killed Magus. I follow canon and recruit him.
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So you mean you like it in the sense that if you did kill Magus, it would indicate that Glenn's character was actually petty and shortsighted and the Schala hack explores realistically this version of Glenn? Hmm...
It would have been funny if could choose not to fight Magus, and then also choose not to let him in your party.
"Let me come with you"
"No."
"Why not?"
"Because we don't like you"
"But you need my knowledge, I can help you save Crono."
"Nah, we'll figure it out somehow. Later"
"...!"
And he just stands there lonesomely on the cape, thinking about what to do next...
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Just because Magus wasn't filling out some personal vendetta doesn't make his action any less reprehensible: Frog was haunted by Magus's actions, to kill him solves nothing in the end, but Frog's guilt can essentially be squandered away. If Frog realizes the futility of killing Magus, then he really shouldn't bother killing him--it's a combination of guilt, vengeance, and justice that drives Frog...I really don't know why we used the word joy, it doesn't seem to fit Frog's character.
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So you mean you like it in the sense that if you did kill Magus, it would indicate that Glenn's character was actually petty and shortsighted and the Schala hack explores realistically this version of Glenn? Hmm...
It would have been funny if could choose not to fight Magus, and then also choose not to let him in your party.
...
And he just stands there lonesomely on the cape, thinking about what to do next...
Actually, they follow the script, but he never offers to accompany if you chose to have Schala use Marle's pendant to warp everyone out. He just stays there, and leaves after you do. Then you get the opportunity to recruit Schala.
You can find it, as I have said, in Kajar. The thread is Chrono Trigger - Schala Project (Community Project)
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Eh, we replaced joy with justice--because you both brought up some good points. Like Shadow said, he realized that there was no "joy" in defeating Magus, but he only noted it after he already defeated him. But like Phantasm said, why would Frog be in it for the hunt? Ultimately, I think it came down to the joy of "justice" being served through Magus's death...since that'd sound kinda shitty in a script, Frog just notes that the justice is ruined.
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After Magus tells his story, there's really no good reason to fight him. In the end, he was fighting for the greater good, regardless of his own personal reasons for doing so. His actions in 600AD were of small consequence compared to his ultimate goals. If looked upon in that way, Cyrus & Glenn were the ones in the wrong for all of humanity, though they couldn't have known, they were merely fighting for their kingdom. If you choose to fight him on the Cape, you're basically only doing so because of his words against Crono...and that too I don't think is good enough reason. Magus is basically condemning Crono for his failure to defeat Lavos and dying at his hands...but I think that it's also Magus not wanting to admit that he too failed (and perhaps even realizes that he would have failed in 600AD) and is simply lashing out in anger. In fact, at that point, it's easy for the party (Glenn included, if not especially because of his empathy), to pity him somewhat...
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Sorry for being off topic here, but what the Hell SHADOW? We can never tell with you. You hate people who don't like spoilers, but you agree with the guy who doesn't like spoilers? What the hell man??
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Er?
After Magus tells his story, there's really no good reason to fight him. In the end, he was fighting for the greater good, regardless of his own personal reasons for doing so. His actions in 600AD were of small consequence compared to his ultimate goals. If looked upon in that way, Cyrus & Glenn were the ones in the wrong for all of humanity, though they couldn't have known, they were merely fighting for their kingdom. If you choose to fight him on the Cape, you're basically only doing so because of his words against Crono...and that too I don't think is good enough reason. Magus is basically condemning Crono for his failure to defeat Lavos and dying at his hands...but I think that it's also Magus not wanting to admit that he too failed (and perhaps even realizes that he would have failed in 600AD) and is simply lashing out in anger. In fact, at that point, it's easy for the party (Glenn included, if not especially because of his empathy), to pity him somewhat...
Well put, well put. Looking at it from Frog's point of view, the only reason to kill Magus was because of an honor code: killing Magus would be retribution for Cyrus's death ("Cyrus, I hath avenged thee"). I'm sure Frog realizes the futility of this action at this point because, like you said, Magus had a goal that encompassed a far greater consequence than anything Frog had. A lot of Magus's statements sounded quite bitter: "You got whacked, 'cuz you're weak", "Play with fire and you get burned", etc, and I personally believe it's all out of some personal guilt...
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Magus: Play with fire and you get burned!
A lesson learned sooner than later.
The weak go quickly to their graves.
It's funny how they kept the "play with fire and you get burned" line.
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Of 48 votes presently, 30 are for the three female characters and 18 are for the four male ones. That's 63 percent, when, if all the characters were equal (which they are obviously not), it should be closer to 43 percent. Additionally, this community is overwhelmingly male. Anecdotally, the most derogatory comments in this thread were almost invariable directed against either the female characters or Magus. Quite fascinating. I think this poll has inadvertently sampled an undercurrent of sexism among the members of this community.
For what it's worth, I voted against Magus. Going by the story, it's the only choice. Crono himself would probably be next on the list. None of the others could be sacrificed without completely changing the nature of the game.
Lastly, somewhat casually, I think that "mary sue" does not mean what many of you think it means...
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Anecdotally, the most derogatory comments in this thread were almost invariable directed against either the female characters or Magus. Quite fascinating.
Could it actually be that Compendium members have something against long hair? The "which Chrono character would you date?" thread has Lucca in top place, showing that there's quite a bit of respect for women with brains. Either that, or there's a lot of fetishizing of brainiacs. Whichever of those two is most likely to be invoked in a dating poll I guess.
Separating this poll from the rest of your observations for a moment, would there not also be a subtle sexism in holding back criticism of female characters, essentially giving them a privileged "pass" precisely because they're female? So long as the character was booted for real character flaws and her gender didn't factor into the decision, I wouldn't consider it sexist.
On the contrary, I'd propose that if the female Chrono Trigger characters are perceived as being more flawed than the male characters in general, this may be a reflection of sexism on the part of the scenario writers and not the fans. As a hypothetical example, suppose the writers imbued Marle with misconceived notions of femininity, making her screamy, physically weak and a healer (...oh), so that she could contrast a muscle-bound, silent love interest capable of immense destruction. Players might dislike Marle precisely because they, having been raised in an environment shaped by the feminist movement, think Marle is a poor role model for women.
That example aside, I do think the CT developers did fair job writing the women given the production team's technical and design restrictions. Lucca was especially fantastic. My only complaint would be that Ayla is oversexualized; but even then, her strength made the player respect her, and she displays pretty deep wisdom given her origins.
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That example aside, I do think the CT developers did fair job writing the women given the production team's technical and design restrictions. Lucca was especially fantastic. My only complaint would be that Ayla is oversexualized; but even then, her strength made the player respect her, and she displays pretty deep wisdom given her origins.
It's all good fun to have an oversexualized character in some stories. It's not anything sexist, the "Sexy Scantily-Clad Asskicker" archetype is actually moreso putting women above the level of men, if anything.
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Things that sell well.
Sex
Asskicking
Simple
A blend of dim and bright
Bloody
Ayla fits most of that(just not the last one). No one's sexist against Ayla at all! She's pimped out!
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Anecdotally, the most derogatory comments in this thread were almost invariable directed against either the female characters or Magus. Quite fascinating.
Could it actually be that Compendium members have something against long hair? The "which Chrono character would you date?" thread has Lucca in top place, showing that there's quite a bit of respect for women with brains. Either that, or there's a lot of fetishizing of brainiacs. Whichever of those two is most likely to be invoked in a dating poll I guess.
Separating this poll from the rest of your observations for a moment, would there not also be a subtle sexism in holding back criticism of female characters, essentially giving them a privileged "pass" precisely because they're female? So long as the character was booted for real character flaws and her gender didn't factor into the decision, I wouldn't consider it sexist.
On the contrary, I'd propose that if the female Chrono Trigger characters are perceived as being more flawed than the male characters in general, this may be a reflection of sexism on the part of the scenario writers and not the fans. As a hypothetical example, suppose the writers imbued Marle with misconceived notions of femininity, making her screamy, physically weak and a healer (...oh), so that she could contrast a muscle-bound, silent love interest capable of immense destruction. Players might dislike Marle precisely because they, having been raised in an environment shaped by the feminist movement, think Marle is a poor role model for women.
That example aside, I do think the CT developers did fair job writing the women given the production team's technical and design restrictions. Lucca was especially fantastic. My only complaint would be that Ayla is oversexualized; but even then, her strength made the player respect her, and she displays pretty deep wisdom given her origins.
Now this is very well, taken. Specifically I refer to your suggestion that it is the people who created the game who were sexist and that the Compendiumites voting in the poll were merely reacting to that. It occurred to me before I wrote my last post. Is it perhaps the fact that Marle and Lucca are terrible physical fighters, or that Ayla has a stupid dialect, or that Marle spends most of her time going on about Crono, that in fact has lead to their poor performance in the polls?
There is that possibility, and the safest thing to say would be to acknowledge that that may be a partial explanation. Nevertheless, I am wary of giving the Compendium such a generous benefit of the doubt when I see real sexism pervade nearly every community in which I have had any exposure. Furthermore, Internet communities comprised mostly of teenage males are particularly prone to sexist attitudes. Given the sheer ignorance of this community in other matters, I find it not at all unreasonable a deduction that sexism is why the female characters are held in such lower regard here. I give you kudos for pointing out another possible component to the equation.
Things that sell well.
Sex
Asskicking
Simple
A blend of dim and bright
Bloody
Ayla fits most of that(just not the last one). No one's sexist against Ayla at all! She's pimped out!
Ayla is also the character doing the worst in this poll. I think the facts do not support your opinion. Also--and very significantly--from among the people who have bothered to write about their choice in a post, Ayla consistently draws the most criticism, apathy, and disdain.
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I voted Crono.
What? We already know how to get him back afterwards. It's no biggie.
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Things that sell well.
Sex
Asskicking
Simple
A blend of dim and bright
Bloody
Ayla fits most of that(just not the last one). No one's sexist against Ayla at all! She's pimped out!
Ayla is also the character doing the worst in this poll. I think the facts do not support your opinion. Also--and very significantly--from among the people who have bothered to write about their choice in a post, Ayla consistently draws the most criticism, apathy, and disdain.
People are jealous of her goods.
But, Ayla mainly since that was toward the start of the poll before anyone took into account the whole plot driven thing V brought up. Ayla just doesn't quite as much for her character is what it is. If that's a fault on anybody's part, creators since they added less things for Ayla. The least backstory(not to mention story altogether). Her character keeps changing with design(club to fist WTF) and she's the only one who has no special story for herself. It makes sense for her to be in last when you consider no one had thought of plot driven yet.
And when you take the plot driver into account, Crono and Marle make the most sense. Crono just doesn't have quite as many votes for 2 reasons.
A.) He's the main character.
B.) People already dealt with him dying so it couldn't be found as quite as interesting as one of the other party members dying(which sounds kinda gruesome).
Marle fits the ticket.
As for the others, not really as many votes. People either don't see any reason for the loss of Lucca, Frog, or Robo, or they just get a lot of love.
Magus, i don't know. There isn't any plot driving and he's got everything I mentioned Ayla lacking and more. So why he suddenly is gaining a huge amount of votes is beyond me.
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I am with the majority on this one I would get rid of Ayla.
I realized its not so much as I dislike her character I just wouldn't be able to get rid of any of the others.
I also enjoyed the era she lived in the least out of any of them in the game.
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Ayla had the least baggage and issues to deal with (besides Crono), so I think that players have the most trouble relating to her.
Crono is the silent protagonist, and more than any of the other Trigger characters the player personifies him or herself as Crono. Crono is that extension that allows the player to immerse themselves into the game.
Frog has the whole heartrenching heroism, death of a best friend, finding acceptance of the past, finding inner strength storyline(s) to grasp hold of.
Lucca has the "science vs. faith", "my mom is paralyzed and I couldn't save her," and "machines can be used for good or evil" concepts.
Marle has the daddy issues.
Magus has the dysfunctional family, only one person loves me, etc.
Robo had the whole "machine vs humanity" and "what it takes to be alive" to deal with.
Ayla didn't have as much. Her scenario dealt moreso with surviving.
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Crono is the silent protagonist, and more than any of the other Trigger characters the player personifies him or herself as Crono. Crono is that extension that allows the player to immerse themselves into the game.
Tssh, hardly. Everytime there is a silent protagonist, I think to myself "talk, you fucking emo bitch!" Silence does not immerse me. having well thought dialog options what immerses me in a game, as i can define how I want to be and see the reactions.
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All in all, I feel Ayla is troubling for relating to the audience cause everyone has at least one bad thing in their life. And sure, she DID have the Reptites, but like all her other problems she handled that easily. Generally humans are jealous whether we realize it or not and so when we see someone who has everything, most of the time we don't like that. Ayla has everything going for her. The only problem she had was the Reptites, but that was solved. All the other problems in the game happen too far off in the future to effect her at all so she's good no matter what!
Not only did I mean it in a joking manner but in a serious manner too...
People are jealous of her goods.
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Tssh, hardly. Everytime there is a silent protagonist, I think to myself "talk, you fucking emo bitch!" Silence does not immerse me. having well thought dialog options what immerses me in a game, as i can define how I want to be and see the reactions.
I actually agree with you, here... However, that is the reason for it and I understand it, although, like you, I would rather see it the world through a specific characters already derived worldview.