Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: ZeaLitY on January 25, 2005, 10:41:29 pm
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I've stickied all topics relating to magic and able to be included in an article about the elements and such. Before we actually construct the article, we need to finish Empiric's work on Magic and Characters, in which an in-depth analysis of every spell was proposed. We shall do this, as well as an analysis of monster spells. Actually I just moved them all to a separate forum for easier editing.
These threads lead somewhat to disorganization, however. Would anyone like to post a plausible outline for the article?
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Perhaps there should be a seperation of Characters by Magic and/or Element types, rather than "simple" Character seperation which would be absolute chaos to regulate. And maybe even seperate those by which Tech, in CC it would be by 3, 5, or 7 and in CT it would be 1-however many there were...8? 9?
This one sounds like it's going to be big no matter what though...jeezum...
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Great idea giving this its own forum. Maybe now, I'll actually read all the threads. Then again, maybe not, but it's still a good idea.
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A. Definition of Magic
B. History of Magic (Who taught in Zeal)
C. Spekkio Discourse
D. Definition/History of Elements
E. Character Abilities
F. The Magic Study (Magic and Characters in CT/CC)
How does that sound?
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A. Definition of Magic
B. History of Magic (Who taught in Zeal)
C. Spekkio Discourse
D. Definition/History of Elements
E. Character Abilities
F. The Magic Study (Magic and Characters in CT/CC)
How does that sound?
Pretty good, I would just like to make a few additions to see what we are specifically looking for. this isnt how i "think it should be done" Think of it as a question. For example: Spekkio Discourse, well i dont think trying to define exactly who he is is really important to the magic article, so i wouldnt think that would be in there. hopefully somebody understands what i mean:
A. Definition of Magic
1. What it is. (ex: 4 element manipulation etc)
2. How it is acquired/used (ex: Lavos, teachers: gurus, spekkio etc])
B. History of Magic
1. Zeal
2. Mystics
3. Time Travelers
C. Spekkio Discourse (speaks for itself)
D. Defintion of Elements
1. What they are. (ex: crystals, represent 'sounds' etc)
2. How they are acquired/used (ex: Hotspots on earth, easily traded)
E. History of Elements (fuzzy on this one...)
1. Dragonians
2. Chronopolis
3. El Nido
The last two (character abilities and magic study) seem sort of similiar. So i dont know what to do with those exactly.
I dont know if this was really beneficial to the article, im just trying to help by trying to find a better understanding.
:)
EDIT: just and additional thought: my whole angle here is to help us define exactly what we are looking for so we can ask those specific questions immediately and debate/discuss the answers. You said it yourself, ZeaLitY: These threads lead to disorganization.
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That's fine; Character Abilities = GrayLensman's Elemental Model, while the Magic Study would be a kind of appendix like the Name Origins section of RWI: a large listing of spells and analysis.
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I WANNA HELP TOO...I GOT ALL EXCITED NOW.... I KNOW LOTS OF MAGIC STUFF...I HOPE BEING USEFULL !!!
A.1.2.B.1.D.1...all seem to have a conection .... and you can't forgot bout dinopolis.... even tough it is a hard thing to discuss.... it got something to do with the dragonians ...i will take a look in my compendium later....
i'm talking too much.... i think that is all for now :lol:
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Crap, I completely forgot about the monster tech list. I knew there was something here I was supposed to be doing.
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I think you should be careful with something before you divulge into this article; that is, be careful. I have a feeling many people are going to be confused or incorrectly assume certain things in the differences between the battles in the game (battle system), and the actual events.
Which might be a reason to not go into detail "in which an in-depth analysis of every spell was proposed". IMO, that's screwing with something in the battle system, and not neccessarily in the story.
EDIT: if there isnt an articale already up, basically ignore this post. I didn't realize the original post was made almost two years ago. Wow
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Uh, could you give an example of wtf you're talking about DeweyisOverrated? Because you, like, totally just confused me. :?
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is he saying, this idea is stupid? or youre taking it way too far?
either way... what are ya talking about? its necessary to look at every single tech (well mainly the magical ones i guess) to give an idea of the magics going into them, if u get me?
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Uh, could you give an example of wtf you're talking about DeweyisOverrated? Because you, like, totally just confused me. :?
Surely.
Basically its the theory that things that happen in the battle system, don't neccessarily happen in the game, and that they are two separate entities.
For example, the question everyone seems to asks is "How come Crono can get to lvl 99 and do Luminaire for 9999 damage and have all of his dmg reduced to 1 or even 0, and then be knocked out by a puny guard before the throw him in jail?" The answer is, the battle system is separate from the actual events of the story. Understand?
So basically what I'm saying is, they would ahve to be careful. The fact that in CC people can USE magic is actually part of the story, and therefore useful to the article. The fact that Grobyc can summon a huge freaking Grim Reaper that tears up the the entire ground is NOT part fo the story. It's part fo the battle system, and obviously ridiculous to include in the article.
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but the article is ABOUT the magic is it not? so its highly important to include the magic techs in the article that is about them is it not? :roll:
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The answer is, the battle system is separate from the actual events of the story. Understand?
Ah, so the battles against Lavos are seperate from the story?
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why yes, in the story the crew go to lavos, and it mystically dies, then we carry on and the world is saved, the whole idea the crew use magical spells to destroy lavos is propostrurus and could never of worked for it is impossible for these spells to ever of existed, the crew didnt use awesome inteligence and skill to only affect the area they intended with their magicness, o no.
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At this point, one would invoke the Aeris rule. However, I posit and always have that no such rule exists. In fact, it doesn't even apply to Aeris herself; at the time she was killed, none of the AVALANCHE crew was anywhere near Sephiroth's power level. He would have done the same thing to any one of them, except maybe Cloud.
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Cloud was always stronger than Sephiroth.
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dont forget all the levels you learn them at.
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I think Items mostly only apply in battle...Or...at least Pheonix Downs? If you get killed out of battle, perhaps you're just outta luck.
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dont forget all the levels you learn them at.
?? you learn the spells depending on how many skill points you have, or are you talking about CC and innate elements decided by your star levels.
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The answer is, the battle system is separate from the actual events of the story. Understand?
Ah, so the battles against Lavos are seperate from the story?
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, or just don't understand.
Thank you Hadriel for saying the Aeris rule, I couldn't think of what it was called.
No, the battles actually happen, but what happens INSIDE of them doesn't neccessarily. Basically, the battle system is the only thing that really makes RPG's a "game" rather than "an interactive story". Now, any of us know Cloud's sword would EASILY cut through, say, an enemy flower. But, this obviously wouldn't make a great battle system. So, the game creators essentially exagerrate the played out battles in order to put gameplay experience into it.
Another example. Let's look at Antipode 3, a personal favorite of mine. Now, could Marle and Lucca use Ice and Fire magic, respectivly? Yes. Could they time it so they hit an enemy with it at the same time? With practice, yes. Could they summon up a huge amount of fire and ice? Yes. Could they use their powers so effectively that the entire 1 mile radius around them blows up, enshrouding their enemies with fire and ice, and hurt only their enemies, and not themselves or anyone else? Seems a little farfetched to me... seems like just something used for gameplay and visual fx more than anything.
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w/Magic, nothing is farfetched :wink:
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and dewey if your going to quote how some spells are absolutely crazy you should look more at CC, blackhole, forever zero, and if youve ever played golden sun for GBA, their are numerous summons that involve obliterating the world, but what you forget is the real power of the magic and the people who wield it, they clearly have the ability to control the magics how they wish, which is how they only harm the enemys, the wielders are immensely skilled. as for how blackhole and forever zero manage to just do damage to enemies, i would say all life has a resistance to magic, so being turned into nothing by magic would actaully just ... hurt... because of their defense against it. :roll: hehe yeah right.
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1. Elements are not magic.
2. Those are only visual effects to show where they might come from.
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and dewey if your going to quote how some spells are absolutely crazy you should look more at CC, blackhole, forever zero, and if youve ever played golden sun for GBA, their are numerous summons that involve obliterating the world, but what you forget is the real power of the magic and the people who wield it, they clearly have the ability to control the magics how they wish, which is how they only harm the enemys, the wielders are immensely skilled. as for how blackhole and forever zero manage to just do damage to enemies, i would say all life has a resistance to magic, so being turned into nothing by magic would actaully just ... hurt... because of their defense against it. :roll: hehe yeah right.
I did, in fact I talked about the Grim Repear summon as my first example. You're absolutely right, no one can survive a black hole, and that's basically my whole point.
and secondly,
2. Those are only visual effects to show where they might come from.
Pretty much exactly what I'm talking about.
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That just seems like so much oversimplification..."Oh, it's just part of the game system, it has no real meaning"...It seems, I dunno, somewhat against what the Compendium is about...But w/e...
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That just seems like so much oversimplification..."Oh, it's just part of the game system, it has no real meaning"...It seems, I dunno, somewhat against what the Compendium is about...But w/e...
ill agree with you there. you guys are just looking at this and seeing the only logical explanation, look outside the box :wink: .
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I agree that's what the Compendium is about, but after a point, it can get ridiculous.
Let's think sports here. I am a HUGE baseball fan. But sports show can get WAY too overanalytical from time to time. Take Dontrell Willis. The big thing about him is that, while he has had a spectacular first half, everyone was weary on saying he would win the Cy Young because stastistically, he always seems to have a bad second-half of the season. Ok, that's understandable. But then people start getting way too into stats so much, that it takes away from it and starts making no sense. For example, an actual stat I heard the other night:
"David Wright has the highest batting average in the National league, this year, with bases loaded, 2 outs, so long as he is playing at home, and batting in either the 5th or 6th slot." (And they also might have added "among 3rd basemen, nto sure though)
Wow, see, too in-depth, and that's looking at too much stuff, and in the end, doesn't really mean ANYTHING. I mean, its only a matter of time before someone brings up the fact that "x enemy is a better fire-user than Lucca because her fire spell only shoots out 6 balls fo fire as opposed to some enemy who has 7 balls of fire, but Lucca's does more damage so the fire is more powerful, but that's only because she has a higher level and you shouldn't be at that level at that point in the game, but yeah but she also has weaker armor on so it makes up for it, but you also used shield...." etc, etc.
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thats all a fair point, but i forget, wasnt the point of the article their suposed to be writing to be about the magic of the chrono series, theres not much more magical than the magic they use is there? corect me if im wrong.
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Whereas you're talking about something a little closer to being unreasonable (sorry if i missed anything, but after you said "baseball" i just sorta zonked out...baseball=most boring sport ot watch...including golf), the only thing that was being discussed previously was that the magic users could control the targets with which their magic attacks effected, even though their surroundings changed in impossible (MAGICAL!!!) ways, which isn't unreasonable at all. Especially since we KNOW they can and do have to target which enemy or teammate must be targeted before they use a spell.
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I'm with dewey on this one. I think its just to make the game more exciting. I dont believe that spells of such magnitude like luminaire, antipode 3, forever zero, etc. etc...are able to be that acurate.
I'll use Lavos' eruption as an example. He launches his spikes (the name of the attack is on the top of my toung right now, rain from the heavens or something like that i think) to destroy the world yet some of them hit lavos' shell. An attack that strong would severly weaken him if you ask me. This also happens in the battle when he uses the spike attack.
And lets look at FFVI. Plenty of attack cannot be controled. Even by Terra who was born in the world where magic was created and is half an esper (I'm referring to attacks liek Metron, W Wind, and Quake.) It's just exaggeration for good battle systems. I don't really understand how it isn't something like that.
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I just think that something like Ultanova or Safer-Sephiroth's SuperNova, or Forever Zero are not really happaning, but are to represnt the amount of energy that hits you\the enemy.
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It could also be that the things that you see are simply part of the Magic spell, it's just an illusion that the world is destroyed or w/e, but the results unto the enemy are real.
Also, I don't think Lavos' eruption wouldn't matter. Even if his Destruction Rains From the Heavens were to touch down on his shell...For one, we know that Lavos survives his impact onto the planet in the first place, which would be expressed in tons and tons of energy right there. Secondly, based solely on Lavos' Spawn, we know that their Shells are nigh-indestructable, wouldn't it then be plausible to say that Lavos, being fully grown and fully powered, wouldn't bat an eye at his laser attacks that hit his shell? I mean, heck, Crono & Co. don't even bother trying to target the shell, yeah? I think there's your reason...
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I actually agree about the Rain of Destruction spell... I'm sure Lavos is getting hit by it, but his shell is able to withold the damage.. just my personal opinion. But my overall statement about spells being exagerrated for fx purposes and giving flavor to the battle system remains the same.
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Thinking back to this topic, I realize why you can't take anything you see in the battle system that seriously:
It's "turn" based. You're not going to have Crono cast a spell, then wait for an enemy to attack him before he casts again.
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I'm with dewey on this one. I think its just to make the game more exciting. I dont believe that spells of such magnitude like luminaire, antipode 3, forever zero, etc. etc...are able to be that acurate.
I don't so much agree with Dewey as I already believe the same as Dewey.
I just tried explaining something to Sentenal regarding something that only happens in-game, but not particularly part of the plot, and thus doesn't make it canon; the instance probably only arose out of the fact that the programmers could only fit such a limited amount of code into the game.
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Anyone have any ideas as to how it even exists? My guess is the in the "chronoverse" free-energy is abundant, and magic is just the manipulation of it.
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Such a phenomenon would probably prevent life as we know it from existing, yet it exists.
No...it's drawn from within. Perhaps occasionally they can tap sources of energy, but only sources that would be thusly drained. For example, Marle could draw energy from a blizzard and while doing so it would be reduced to a light snowfall.
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I could see how that would work with Chrono's, Lucca's, and Magus' magic the would redirect the energy from one location to another. But Frog and Marle requires the transportation of objects in there case water, and the amounts used in their spells would require something to transport it. A slip gate would could explain as to why it just appears.
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Well, it's possible they could be using energy from within to manipulate water vapor without?
This presumes of course that they need to manipulate their environment at all, which they might not. They could be transforming their energy into whatever they need. After all, matter and energy are the same thing, so if you had a process that could do it, it shouldn't be that hard.
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But then it also requires a lot of energy...I think...
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If all of the universe is made up of the fundamentals of magic, like Spekkio states, couldn't they just draw said magic from anything anywhere at any time?
I don't think they draw anything from an external force though, especially since we're not told this nor do we see it occur. Their magic comes from their concentration of their own internal energies, which when calculated and given to the player, is translated in the form of MP, or Magic Points/Power.
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The entire universe made up of the fundementals.. Standard magic drawn from teh body's stores((mp)) the bigger the spell the more the cost, except in the case of the studs which I believe take a small amount of mp and focus it more strongly than the body can naturally.
Now that is just standard spells. your big spells... summonings.. dead raising ((all sorts of magus mischeif)) would require a ceremony which indicates an outisde draw of power. with no circle((see small undead making ceremonies)) making undead is a perversion of the magic and the enviroment((the undead making not hte lack of circle)) ((theoretical real world effect inserted here)) making hte summoning location corrupted and infertile...
Most situations with a circle are meant to draw from the area and ley lines in balance so the right amount is drawn without causing undue harm to the surrounding area
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I think that might depend on your idea of Summoning. There are at least two types of Summoning in the Chrono world: Elemental Summoning and what could be thought of as Tech Summoning. Another might be debated depending on how you believe Dalton summoned the various Golems. We know that anyone who first fills the Elemental Field of their surrounding area with the same Element as the Elemental Summon they wish to use can then summon the same Elemental Summon of that Element. We also know that it's possible to summon spirits & the dead. Magus shows this in the first battle against him with his (Water elemental) Tech Geyser (these at least appear to be ghosts) and Steena is able to summon Direa, a Hydra, and even Garai in her various Techs. Also, the dead seemingly arise at Ozzie's command on Zenan Bridge.
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very true.. but I also think that the mystics variety of magic is innately different.. For instance in a game Ive been running(( lost an admin so everything has at the moment ground to a halt)) I disallowed mystics at first because they have no limiter keeping them from accesing innate magic from the start like most of the humans((outside of el nido)) do. however it would also seem that at least 75% of mystics((not to be confused with the el nido demihumans)) use shadow. and the elemental summons are dragon magic so also vewry differnt from the innate magic of chrono and crew.. although frog...... summoned that frog.... but that may very well have been a creation rather than a summon...
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I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying outside of you think the Mystic's abilities are different from Crono & Co's...and I still don't understand your reasoning...and dragon magic???
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Such a phenomenon would probably prevent life as we know it from existing, yet it exists.
No...it's drawn from within. Perhaps occasionally they can tap sources of energy, but only sources that would be thusly drained. For example, Marle could draw energy from a blizzard and while doing so it would be reduced to a light snowfall.
Oxygen was poisonous to early life because it reacts so readily with so many other chemicals, yet some life survived and evolved to take advantage of the massive energy potential of the very thing that killed most other life billions of years ago...
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Oxygen was poisonous to early life because it reacts so readily with so many other chemicals, yet some life survived and evolved to take advantage of the massive energy potential of the very thing that killed most other life billions of years ago...
That's completely different. We're talking about something that violates the currently understood theories of physics when it comes to conservation of energy, not a noxious chemical that can be adapted to.
I'm not saying that there couldn't be life of some kind, simply not "as we know it." There wouldn't be human equivalents because humans--like everything else right now--rely upon living in an environment where energy is not just perpetually free.
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Okay then how about "loose energy" not "free energy". What I am think is that in the Chronoverse(I like that name) there is energy just floating around willy-nilly, But unlike "free energy" there is a finite amount that is manipulated and that manipulation is magic. The only hole I have is how the energy is replenished.
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Oxygen was poisonous to early life because it reacts so readily with so many other chemicals, yet some life survived and evolved to take advantage of the massive energy potential of the very thing that killed most other life billions of years ago...
That's completely different. We're talking about something that violates the currently understood theories of physics when it comes to conservation of energy, not a noxious chemical that can be adapted to.
I'm not saying that there couldn't be life of some kind, simply not "as we know it." There wouldn't be human equivalents because humans--like everything else right now--rely upon living in an environment where energy is not just perpetually free.
Why would it have to break any laws and be somehow perpetually free? How would it be different from light? Obviously something could just emit this magic radiation in small amounts from the planet, but mobile, active creatures wouldn't use it for their primary energy source because it's not powerful enough. At best, they could use it to produce and store energy that could then be released in bursts as elemental effects -- which would account for some strange monster creatures. Humans could still develop in such a world as the use of oxygen allows much more consistently powerful energy production for use in movement and life processes, because movement has such an advantage over other life forms. Then such beings could slowly evolve organs to store and release magic power over the course of millions of years of competition and struggle.
How is it completely different?
Anyway, the real basis of magic shouldn't be the idea of some "energy" since that wouldn't even relate to the effects. Instead, try using as the model a new force based around the interaction of new types of elementary particles.
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the elements in cross are considered dragon magic because of where they came from. but if you notice that in both 60 and 100 ad the mystics are capable of using magic... did all of them go visit spekio? no mystics seem to be born with the ability to use magic.
Okay then how about "loose energy" not "free energy". What I am think is that in the Chronoverse(I like that name) there is energy just floating around willy-nilly, But unlike "free energy" there is a finite amount that is manipulated and that manipulation is magic. The only hole I have is how the energy is replenished.
doesnt have to be replenished.. the energy isnt destroyed when used in a spell.. the spell happens and the energy disperses after whatever effect it was supposed to have for instance chrono uses lightning. the energy gathers the bolt goes off and the energy dissipates after its done its damage. even if the target absorbed some of it it would be released back into the "ether" eventually((I used the word ether as a possible place where the magic energy would originate from))
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Magic is probably innate, rather than drawing on outside forces. Of course then you might ask, "Well how do water and ice spells work then?" Might as well ask "How does ANY of it work then?" I mean, a guy generating a lightning bolt is just as far fetched as a Frog generated a giant wave. As much as we must disregard certain battle elements in their relation to the physics of the Chronoverse, the point about MP makes sense. Alternatively, it could be the energy one exudes in order to manipulate a specific element (CT, not CC) that lies outside of the person's being. But then that doesn't explain why Shadow users can use the other three Elements (even if you accept that Lightning+Fire+Water=Shadow, how does one use all of these if the Element of Shadow itself is not a fundamental part of you).
To keep in mind an important point, let us not forget Zeal. They all could use magic innately, though after the kingdom fell, magical ability began to be present only in the Mystics (according to the retranslation). Which suggests the need for a catalyst. The Zealians (zealots?) had the Frozen Flame, the Mammon Machine, and artifacts like the Sunstone. Crono's & Company had Spekkio (the God of War). Another fun thing to consider is Spekkio's specific statement that you needed a certain something in order to use magic. He said strength of heart in the NA translation, but I can't remember just what the Retranslation states. Anyway, he suggests its a specific potential you have on the inside.
I think the line should be drawn between Elements from CC and magic from CT. While the Elements are probably based at least somewhat on CT's four element system, its largely a separate thing. I believe that the mechanics are somewhat different if not entirely different. For instance, CC Elements seem to allow for that Energy grid to fill, allowing certain attacks to be stronger and others to be weaker. CT doesn't make any mention of such a thing so I assume its primarily a feature of the Elements.
More ramblings later.
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Do the Mystics actually use Magic? Or just magical Techs ala Flame Toss & Crono's Slash (Slash uses Techs a lot like this Tech, ironically enough)...I think that's all the Mystics use, unlike the monsters, say, on the Black Omen who actually use Magic Techs like Lightning & Dark Bomb.
The Zealians seem to say that their Magic is different than Crono & Co's...I thought their Magical prowess came from being close to the Mammon Machine & thus, Lavos' Magical power.
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Well, I think it was already answered but people kinda talk about the ice and water magic stuff. The usual "Water 2" and "ice 2" thing could be explained. Since there's always moisture in the air, they could manipulate it to be braught together and thus cause Water 2, while Ice 2 does the same thing but somehow lowers the temperature of it and causes it to freeze. That's my belief there.
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Why is that different than just saying that they pull the energies of the universe, which is based on the four elements as Spekkio says, and turn that into w/e Magic they're using? I still think that it's an inner power, since they are a part of the universe after all, why and how would they take the power of an outward source, which we don't really have any proof of, when we know they use MP, an inner source...Or I suppose you could say that MP is the power necessary to draw and/or bend the power of the universe.
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Sorry for the "triple post" but maybe can "enlight" a bit :)
http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Bending_arts