Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: GrayLensman on January 24, 2005, 01:03:41 am
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An Elemental Model for Character Abilities
The members of the Chrono Compendium have developed a rigorous model describing the function of magic and elemental energy in the Chrono Series. The universe is controlled by the four elements, which act on a deeper level than the observable laws of nature. The power of the elements may be harnessed using magic or technology to produce indistinguishable elemental effects. The Elemental system of Chrono Cross is based off the four elements and produces non-elemental effects classified based on their physical properties.
However, some phenomena in the Chrono Series cannot be explained using this model.
- Lavos' apparent power is not consistent with the travelers' abilities. Lavos can withstand an impact with the surface of the earth with the same energy as 100 teratons of TNT, yet Crono's Luminaire damages it.
- Characters have physical abilities which appear to violate natural laws. “Normal” humans achieve supernatural strength and speed.
- Characters without magical abilities can produce elemental effects and have inherent defense against elemental attack. Ayla's Tail Spin attack produces non-elemental magical damage.
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I hypothesize that all supernatural abilities are based on elemental energy. Crono can become strong enough to fight Lavos as an equal in power because the makeup of the elemental energy in his body allows him to do so. In response to the stresses of his journeys, Crono's elemental energy adjusted to give him physical traits beyond the capabilities of his biological systems.
Physical energy (heat and light) is not the same as elemental energy. Physical effects only occur as a result of the interaction of the elements. Since the physical traits of powerful entities are predominantly determined by their elemental makeup, physical energy will not have a great effect. The impact of Lavos, though tremendous, did not necessarily have significant elemental energy. The type of energy which is released is more important than the quantity. A hydrogen bomb wouldn't hurt Lavos because negligible elemental energy is released, but Lucca's mega-bombs are based on elemental energy and have the potency to harm Lavos.
All supernatural physical or magical techniques are based on elemental energy. When Crono attacks Lavos with his sword, the force of the blow is defined by Crono's own elemental energy and elemental energy of his sword (forged by Melchior using magical means). Crono's attack is directed at Lavos' elemental energy in such a way as to cause damage. Any physical reaction is only a side effect.
The nature of a technique is determined by the form of the released elemental energy. The elemental effects of magic are based on a single element. Physical and non-elemental effects are based on a combination of all elements and are differentiated by how the elemental energy is directed.
Crono's Luminaire can damage Lavos because his attack is comprised of elemental energy and is directed at Lavos' elemental energy. The physical results (heat and light) are only insignificant byproducts. The other travelers can stand in the blast radius unharmed. Ayla can perform her Tail Spin attack because the elemental energy composing her body produces a non-elemental effect. Physical and Magical defense are two aspects of the same property, which is an innate resistance of all entities with significant elemental energy to elemental effects.
Physical death is meaningless. If Crono's physical body is damaged to the point that his biological systems fail, Marle can restore him while his elemental energy remains. Healing is simply the reinforcement of an entity's elemental energy.
Supernatural phenomena may also be elemental in nature. Magus can transcend death (with his necromancy) by magical means.
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Interesting stuff...I'll add my two cents I suppose...
For one, I agree with Ayla's Tail Spin being non-elemental Magic. In another thread there are some people bumping around the idea that it's Wind-based and that that somehow makes it Lightning Elemental because they think Crono's Slash is a wind-based attack. I don't think any of that's true because Spekkio would have said, like he said with Robo, that her attack could be considered Lightning Elemental, which it's not, which you can tell by using it against certain Lighting absorbing monsters.
Also, I think that Lavos's impact with the earth doesn't have to be that way. It could be, like with many newly born species, that Lavos simply has some kind of protective shell or barrier that protects it from the impact at that stage of it's development. Or, possibly, the "head" of the Lavos Shell is simply not there. It seems like, during the battle, the only thing that's really damages is the "head", and not the shell itself, perhaps this is because the shell is imperveous to attack.
I think that Magic and Innate Magical ability could effect someone's strength and speed in different ways. For instance, Lightning is obviously an energy-based Magic, the same is true with Fire, so you would think those inclined to those Magics would thusly be able to tap into that energy to become faster. This speed could also effect strength and muscle mass production.
Another way to look at it is, perhaps everyone on Chrono world has such strength and speed potential. The characters in Chrono Cross equally gain strength and speed. Cyrus seems both strong and quick (Nirvana Strike as an example of speed).
I don't see the difference between any regular bomb and a bomb that Lucca uses in her Techs. Unless you're theorizing that she creates them Magically rather than physically...I had always believed the latter myself, but I suppose anything's possible.
I also am not quite sure about the part where you say "Physical and non-elemental effects are based on a combination of all elements and are...etc", because, if they were a combination of all the elements, wouldn't that create a Shadow-type effect? I believed that since these effects were not created by either Fire, Water, or Lightning, that they were simply automatically non-elemental. They were just like the others, a wind attack, while still magical in nature, is just not Elemental.
Perhaps non-elemental attacks are more created by the force of the individual. Maybe that's how the people in that thread meant by comparing Tail Spin to Slash. Both Techs use the character's inner magic to create the magical effect. Although Slash becomes Lightning Elemental (or wait, is it Lightning Elemental?) because of Crono's Magical Innateness and Tail Spin does not, both are still inner, chi-like magical attacks.
Now what's up with Crono's Confuse attack not giving the Confuse status ailment? That one always...confused...me...:lol:
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The Elemental system of Chrono Cross is based off the four elements and produces non-elemental effects classified based on their physical properties.
So, wait, the elements are non-elemental?
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Thank you for the reply, V Trans. I took me a week to write out this theory after discussing it with Zeality and I expect it will require further refinement.
For one, I agree with Ayla's Tail Spin being non-elemental Magic. In another thread there are some people bumping around the idea that it's Wind-based and that that somehow makes it Lightning Elemental because they think Crono's Slash is a wind-based attack. I don't think any of that's true because Spekkio would have said, like he said with Robo, that her attack could be considered Lightning Elemental, which it's not, which you can tell by using it against certain Lighting absorbing monsters.
Tail Spin and Poyozo Dance cause non-elemental magical damage. Slash does cause lightning elemental damage.
Also, I think that Lavos' impact with the earth doesn't have to be that way. It could be, like with many newly born species, that Lavos simply has some kind of protective shell or barrier that protects it from the impact at that stage of it's development. Or, possibly, the "head" of the Lavos Shell is simply not there. It seems like, during the battle, the only thing that's really damages is the "head", and not the shell itself, perhaps this is because the shell is impervious to attack.
My estimate for the energy of Lavos' impact is based on the Chicxulub impact which exterminated the dinosaurs. Any impact which would cause this type of global climate change which lasts for millions of years would have to have a similar magnitude. No physical substance could withstand a 100 teraton explosion. “Over 200 thousand cubic kilometers of the Earth's crust was instantly vaporized, melted or ejected from the crater.” (http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/sharpton.html). This is what I mean by supernatural--if Lavos' shell protected it from the impact, its properties cannot be explained by natural laws.
I think that Magic and Innate Magical ability could effect someone's strength and speed in different ways. For instance, Lightning is obviously an energy-based Magic, the same is true with Fire, so you would think those inclined to those Magics would thusly be able to tap into that energy to become faster. This speed could also effect strength and muscle mass production.
Another way to look at it is, perhaps everyone on Chrono world has such strength and speed potential. The characters in Chrono Cross equally gain strength and speed. Cyrus seems both strong and quick (Nirvana Strike as an example of speed).
For this reason I was very careful about the language I used: supernatural and not superhuman. Crono is capable of moves that not only exceed normal human capability, but arguably violate the laws of physics. I am indeed theorizing that all beings can achieve these abilities, but also that the mechanism is based on elemental interactions which “break” the laws of physics.
I don't see the difference between any regular bomb and a bomb that Lucca uses in her Techs. Unless you're theorizing that she creates them Magically rather than physically...I had always believed the latter myself, but I suppose anything's possible.
What makes the Rainbow more powerful than a regular steel sword? It may be harder and sharper, but even then its physical properties are supernatural. It appears that Crono can run one enemy through with a steel sword and then run another enemy through with the Rainbow and do more damage. If penetration is not an issue, the mechanical properties of the sword will not significantly affect the damage. The Rainbow's power lies in its elemental properties, and how it reacts with the elemental energy of the target.
Lucca's Mega Bomb does more damage to Lavos than a 100 teraton blast. The power of Lucca's bombs cannot be explained through its physical properties alone. That is why I stated it is based on elemental energy. Lucca is not necessarily constructing the bombs using magic, but they have distinct elemental properties.
I also am not quite sure about the part where you say "Physical and non-elemental effects are based on a combination of all elements and are...etc", because, if they were a combination of all the elements, wouldn't that create a Shadow-type effect? I believed that since these effects were not created by either Fire, Water, or Lightning, that they were simply automatically non-elemental. They were just like the others, a wind attack, while still magical in nature, is just not Elemental.
Everything in the universe of the Chrono Series is based on the four elemental powers. A sword is fundamentally a combination of the four elements. Magic utilizes pure elemental energy. The combination of pure Lightning, Fire, or Water will produce Shadow elemental effects. Non-elemental or everyday physical phenomena are composed of a inseparable mixture of elemental power. I am essentially stating that magic produces pure elemental effects and non-elemental techniques include magical (indirect) and physical (direct) effects.
Perhaps non-elemental attacks are more created by the force of the individual. Maybe that's how the people in that thread meant by comparing Tail Spin to Slash. Both Techs use the character's inner magic to create the magical effect. Although Slash becomes Lightning Elemental (or wait, is it Lightning Elemental?) because of Crono's Magical Innateness and Tail Spin does not, both are still inner, chi-like magical attacks.
Ayla can produce a non-elemental effect because her body has increased elemental properties. A wind generated through ordinary means would not have any elemental effect. The tech causes a non-elemental magical affect because of the way the energy is directed at the target.
Crono's Slash attack causes a lightning elemental effect because his body has increased elemental properties and he has an innate element, which Ayla lacks.
Now what's up with Crono's Confuse attack not giving the Confuse status ailment? That one always...confused...me...:lol:
Ha ha, it does cause the confuse status.
The Elemental system of Chrono Cross is based off the four elements and produces non-elemental effects classified based on their physical properties.
So, wait, the elements are non-elemental?
Dragonian Elements do not produce effects directly related to the four primary elements.
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Yeah, yeah. The CC system doesn't quite work along the same lines (what with two more elements and all). Your theory should probably come up with some way to describe their functioning and connection to the CT elements (The Red and Blue innates would correspond to Fire and Water, but beyond that it's pretty hazy). Even if the elements themselves aren't tied to the... er CT elements, each character has an affinity to a certain color.
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Hm, I always thought that the physical techs the characters used were backed up by their element. Example: (assuming Wind is apart of the Lightning element) Crono uses the wind to accelerate himself into the air to perform Spincut. He may also use the wind to circle around the enemy continuously like a weak tornado to perform Confuse. But i guess that way of thinking falls apart when you look at Frog's Leapslash, which makes little sense with Water unless you imagine a wave crashing or something : ) Oh well.
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Yeah, yeah. The CC system doesn't quite work along the same lines (what with two more elements and all). Your theory should probably come up with some way to describe their functioning and connection to the CT elements (The Red and Blue innates would correspond to Fire and Water, but beyond that it's pretty hazy). Even if the elements themselves aren't tied to the... er CT elements, each character has an affinity to a certain color.
This has already been discussed here. (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=30)
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Yeah, yeah. The CC system doesn't quite work along the same lines (what with two more elements and all). Your theory should probably come up with some way to describe their functioning and connection to the CT elements (The Red and Blue innates would correspond to Fire and Water, but beyond that it's pretty hazy). Even if the elements themselves aren't tied to the... er CT elements, each character has an affinity to a certain color.
The Black and White correspond to Shadow and Lightning respectively... You can figure it by looking at the mail colors in CT. The lightning absorbing armor is White Mail while the Shadow absorbing one is Black Mail.
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And Yellow and Green are more like simple forces of nature. Wind, lightning, earthquakes, plants.
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Yeah, yeah. The CC system doesn't quite work along the same lines (what with two more elements and all). Your theory should probably come up with some way to describe their functioning and connection to the CT elements (The Red and Blue innates would correspond to Fire and Water, but beyond that it's pretty hazy). Even if the elements themselves aren't tied to the... er CT elements, each character has an affinity to a certain color.
The Black and White correspond to Shadow and Lightning respectively... You can figure it by looking at the mail colors in CT. The lightning absorbing armor is White Mail while the Shadow absorbing one is Black Mail.
...but electric attacks are seen in yellow, and black isn't a combination of the other colors.
Anyway, I read through the analysis, and it does make some measure of sense. However, I don't think that all Elements are completely non-elemental, but rather some are more closely tied to certain elements than others. For instance, any red Element is likely fire-elemental and would have similar effects to fire-resistant/-absorbant creatures. Same with Thundastorm being lightning. Others, like green Elements, are less tied to a certain element.
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Should we begin work on the Magic/Elements article? The only things lacking now are the in-depth analysis of Chrono Cross's techs, and perhaps analysis of monster spells.
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Anyway, I read through the analysis, and it does make some measure of sense. However, I don't think that all Elements are completely non-elemental, but rather some are more closely tied to certain elements than others. For instance, any red Element is likely fire-elemental and would have similar effects to fire-resistant/-absorbant creatures. Same with Thundastorm being lightning. Others, like green Elements, are less tied to a certain element.
I'm not so sure that a conventional fire, for example, would cause Fire damage. A Laser or Plasma Gun causes physical damage. Ayla's taill spin is composed of wind, but is non-elemental. The color system may be a compination of physical, non-elemental and elemental effects, but I don't think even Red and Blue are directly related to the primary elements.
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They may not be related, but it seems to me that natural phenomena should be composed of the elements as well. If everything in the world is elemental in nature, then there's no reason to say a natural fire doesn't use the fire element.
Non-elemental magic is a tricky subject. Maybe there's a fifth, "Null" element that's responsible for all the non-elemental magic effects we see (such as Ayla's Tail Spin).
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I dont think that the dragonian elements should be seen as so important to element discussion rather than the four primary elements displayed in CT. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they arent "natural". Sure every character is innately one or another but then again, chess isnt a natural game, and yet somehow people are born with talent for it. The characters are good at harnessing one type of element, while poor at harnessing its opposite, like how people who are very used to hot climates in the south and can deal with them easily are easily damaged by colder climates found in areas of the north. The universe isnt dependent upon the balance of the dragonian elements, so I dont see why they would be extremely important to the discussion. But thats just me : )
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Or, they might be more natural as they come from the culture that evolved without Lavos' corruption. It's possible the Draconian elements are the way they were meant to be (at least on this planet), while the CT elements are unnatural, and due to Lavos' corruption.
This reminds me of another interesting point: the six elemental dragons. They seem to be the ultimate representation of CC's paradigm. To use the chess metaphor, if we were to find out that a "Chess God" existed, we may start to question whether chess is really so artificial.
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Or, they might be more natural as they come from the culture that evolved without Lavos' corruption. It's possible the Draconian elements are the way they were meant to be (at least on this planet), while the CT elements are unnatural, and due to Lavos' corruption.
This reminds me of another interesting point: the six elemental dragons. They seem to be the ultimate representation of CC's paradigm. To use the chess metaphor, if we were to find out that a "Chess God" existed, we may start to question whether chess is really so artificial.
But didnt the elements exist before Lavos? I thought only applied magic was created by Lavos (hence why Ayla cant use magic). In order to use magic in CT, you had to either be aware of your innate element, or had to have the ability to use applied magic unlocked. Also, the magic you used had to be of your own element, unless you paired up with someone else. The Draconian elements seem to have the "just plug it in and use it" attitude. Not to sound completely stupid, but it sounds like the Bulma (from dragonball) solution to harnessing elemental power
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Look at it along these lines: Elements are a natural phenomena of the world. Magic as seen in CT is artificial, as are its elements; they were brought to the planet by Lavos and it's his influence that enables it.
Here's why it makes more sense this way: Creatures evolve to make use of aspects of nature. We can see in CC that not only are humans able to use elements easily, but all monsters can as well. If elements were a part of nature, it would make sense that evolution would have caused creatures to be able to use them naturally.
In CT, however, nothing uses magic naturally, it has to be unlocked in one way or another. Magic is like a tool, you can't use it until you're taught how to use it (like a fork compared to ones teeth. One can use ones teeth instinctively, but will be puzzled by a fork until someone else teaches them how to use it).
Compare:
The Penguin is adapted to cold and wet climates.
The Camel is adapted to hot and dry climates. - Both are natural, and plausible.
The Penguin is adept at fighting with a knife.
The Camel is better with a club. - Both are artificial adaptations. They're ridiculous, and aren't part of reality.
Then why don't we see Element use in CT? <reality check>The programmers hadn't planned it yet.</reality check> Maybe Lavos had repressed the Elemental power of the planet when he erupted in 12,000 BC, and it was restored by the Dragonians when Terra Tower came to the world. Animals still had the ability to use Elements, as even 13,000 years (the unattainable maximum time) might not be enough to evolve it out of organisms.
Other evidence the Elements are natural: the mythology built up around them. Belthasar talks about the stars and moons representing the elemental dragons, which represent the elements. Given what he says with regards to the second moon, I infer that this is more than just a metaphor or myth; it's part of nature. We don't see the same thing with Lavos elements.
The point I'm trying to make is that the elemental divisions in CC are natural, while the divisions seen in CT are artificial simplifications (likely white and yellow combined to heaven, while green and blue combined to water, or something similar), brought by Lavos.
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Or, they might be more natural as they come from the culture that evolved without Lavos' corruption. It's possible the Draconian elements are the way they were meant to be (at least on this planet), while the CT elements are unnatural, and due to Lavos' corruption.
This reminds me of another interesting point: the six elemental dragons. They seem to be the ultimate representation of CC's paradigm. To use the chess metaphor, if we were to find out that a "Chess God" existed, we may start to question whether chess is really so artificial.
Have you reviewed the Magic in CT and CC (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=30) topic? It's looks like I have to repost Spekkio's dialog.
SPEKKIO: You are strong of will...!
That's why the Old One let you
through.
Long before you were born...
...there was a kingdom where magic
flourished.
Everyone there could use it!
But in time, people began to abuse
their powers. It got so bad that no
one was allowed to use magic except
wizards.
But you have it...determination, I
mean!
Magic needs power of the heart.
It needs inner strength.
Magic is divided into 4 types:
Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.
SPEKKIO: You, with the punk hairdo!
You're "Lightning."
SPEKKIO: The one with the ponytail is
"Water."
SPEKKIO: The one with goofy glasses is
"Fire."
SPEKKIO: That's the biggest toy I've
ever seen...
Hey, you're not alive, are you?!
You've got great strength, however,
since I can't measure your inner
character, I can't give any magic to
you.
But your laser weapons will suffice.
They can inflict "Shadow" type
damage.
SPEKKIO: Not just magic, but
EVERYTHING is based on the balance
of these 4 powers.
SPEKKIO: What a weird fellow.
Being a frog, let's give him "Water!"
SPEKKIO: All right!
Sweetheart!
Unfortunately, you were born before
magic existed! But you seem to have
other skills that will get you by.
SPEKKIO: ...Phew...!!
You hauled in a marlin here, kids!
He can use "Shadow"...
And he could probably teach me a
thing or two!
We can only assume Spekkio is telling the truth. The four elements form the basis for everything in the universe. This is a fact, clearly stated in the game.
Unless Lavos changed the laws of physics for the entire universe, it is not responsible for the existence of the magical elements. The elements existed in this form in 65 million BC before Lavos arrived, and in 2300 AD after Lavos was destroyed.
The Dragonian Elements and Color system cannot be more "natural" than the magical elements. The Elements were created by harnessing the planet's energy, rather than magically manipulating the fundamental forces of the universe.
The Language of Spekkio's statement is also clearly exclusive. There are no other magical elements. Any other physical property, including the Dragonian Elemental Colors, must be based on the four magical elements.
Lastly, we know the exact nature of the Dragons Gods, and they are far from Divine. They are the avatars of a multi-dimensional organic computer created by the Reptites. In other words, they represent the components of an artificial being.
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<reality check>Actually, the laws of physics did change. When the programmers wrote CC, they changed the elemental system to cover six colors. Now, even the Time Devourer (=Lavos) uses elements.</reality check>
Simple counter-point: So, you're saying the elements are Fire, Water, Heaven, and Shadow, right? Elements, by their nature, must be elemental--nothing can combine to form them. Then how come Fire + Water + Heaven = Shadow? It's like saying the primary colors of light are red, blue, green, and white.
Now, Spekkio may not have been lying, but he may have been wrong. If you'd asked an ancient greek scientist what made up the universe, they may have said:
Everything in the universe is made up of Earth, Air, Fire and Water.
He's not lying, but we know now that he's wrong. The evolution of science keeps leading us to lower and lower layers of reality. When atomic theory led us to believe that different atoms made up everything, we named different types of atoms "elements." Then we found out that atoms contained protons and electrons. Then we found out there were also neutrons. Then we find out protons and neutrons are made of quarks.
What's to say the same didn't happen in the CT/CC world? Spekkio thought that Fire/Water/Heaven/Shadow were elemental (why? Maybe because he only learned this from Gaspar, who only knew of Lavos-type magic. Maybe he's the embodiment of Lavos-type magic.), so he said this as fact. Now, in CC, the Dragonians have taught us that reality is actually made up of six elements, which mingle together to form the aforementioned four.
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And why CT/CC world must be same as ours? In CT/CC there may be other 4 main powers. And if Spekkio doesn`t know truth than ho knows? He probably seen evrything what happend or gona hapen. And we know that cc elements are older than ct magic, so maybe dragonians thought that there are 6 main powers so they created 6 colors of elements
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Are CC Elements older? I didn't think it specifically stated when the Dragonians found them, only when the Dragonians came into existance and the fact that they did find them.
There's another aspect of the CC Elements that people seem to look over. I believe that it's entirely possible that Lavos is responsible for them as well. We know that CC Elements come from power points from the earth, perhaps like how lava comes up from cracks in the tectonic plates? That said, since they come from somewhere deep in the earth, could they not have been effected by Lavos's presence?
Like it (Lavos) absorbs the earth's power, we saw that the earth also absorbed it's (Lavos's) power through Dreamstone. Perhaps the CC Elements are akin to Dreamstone.
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<reality check>Actually, the laws of physics did change. When the programmers wrote CC, they changed the elemental system to cover six colors. Now, even the Time Devourer (=Lavos) uses elements.</reality check>
The laws of physics did not change in the story. The programmer introduced a different magic system. Unless we throw the continuity of the Chrono series out the window, the Dragonian and Magical elements have to coexist.
Simple counter-point: So, you're saying the elements are Fire, Water, Heaven, and Shadow, right? Elements, by their nature, must be elemental--nothing can combine to form them. Then how come Fire + Water + Heaven = Shadow? It's like saying the primary colors of light are red, blue, green, and white.
When I use multi-techs in Chrono Cross, the elemental colors of the single-techs also combine to form another color. This is a property of both the Dragonian and Magic elements. However, any combination of magical elements produces shadow, which is different than how the Dragonian Colors combine.
Now, Spekkio may not have been lying, but he may have been wrong. If you'd asked an ancient greek scientist what made up the universe, they may have said:
Everything in the universe is made up of Earth, Air, Fire and Water.
He's not lying, but we know now that he's wrong. The evolution of science keeps leading us to lower and lower layers of reality. When atomic theory led us to believe that different atoms made up everything, we named different types of atoms "elements." Then we found out that atoms contained protons and electrons. Then we found out there were also neutrons. Then we find out protons and neutrons are made of quarks.
What's to say the same didn't happen in the CT/CC world? Spekkio thought that Fire/Water/Heaven/Shadow were elemental (why? Maybe because he only learned this from Gaspar, who only knew of Lavos-type magic. Maybe he's the embodiment of Lavos-type magic.), so he said this as fact. Now, in CC, the Dragonians have taught us that reality is actually made up of six elements, which mingle together to form the aforementioned four.
Ancient Greeks such as Aristotle were philosophers, not scientists. Scientists use the scientific method. The magical elements are not comparable to the Aristotelean elements because because the actually exist.
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.
The CC script never states that the six elemental colors ever form the basis for reality.
Are you changing your hypothesis? You originally stated that the magical elements were artificial. The Dragonian Elements are artifacts which utilize the planet's energy. The Magical Elements may be secondary to the Elemental Colors, but this requires Spekkio's ignorance. Spekkio is a self proclaimed god, and a being of great power. Also, no one discovered the existence of these elements pior to the arrival of the Dragonians.
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The laws of physics did not change in the story. The programmer introduced a different magic system. Unless we throw the continuity of the Chrono series out the window, the Dragonian and Magical elements have to coexist.
Why do you think I tagged it "reality check"? This is looking at it from beyond the fourth wall. The programmers needed a new system, so they changed it, so that even Lavos (or the closest equivalent we see) uses this system.
Ancient Greeks such as Aristotle were philosophers, not scientists. Scientists use the scientific method. The magical elements are not comparable to the Aristotelean elements because because the actually exist.
Are you changing your hypothesis? You originally stated that the magical elements were artificial. The Dragonian Elements are artifacts which utilize the planet's energy.
1. Back then, philosophers were as close as it came to scientists, and this point is completely irrelevant to our discussion.
2. Which actually exist? The Aristotelean elements are aspects of nature, but not in any way they thought. The magical elements of CT don't exist either.
3. Changing my hypothesis? Do you even know how the scientific method works? Once you've started an experiment or analysis, your hypothesis is set in stone, and it's also meaningless. While I'm in a discussion, I allow my theories to change based on available information and my developing thoughts on the matter; to do otherwise is unscientific. You might want to consider this yourself, rather than sticking blindly to one side of an argument.
4. Looking back on my posts, I don't see myself claiming the (CC) elements are artificial. I did theorize that the CT elements may be a simplification.
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.
How do you know any of this?
Spekkio is a self proclaimed god, and a being of great power.
"self proclaimed"
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This is in reply to a comment of the Chrono Shock message board.
Yeah, it all makes sense to me pretty much. I also had a theory of my own that all of the Magic attributes, if that is the right word for it, such as Heaven/Lightning, Fire, Ice/Water, and Shadow, all fit into different Element/Elemental attributes, again if that is the right word for it.
One thing concerns me though. The part about how...
If Crono's physical body is damaged to the point that his biological systems fail, Marle can restore him while his elemental energy remains. Healing is simply the reinforcement of an entity's elemental energy.
Does this only refer to when Crono dies, but his physical body is still pretty much intact? What if he loses some limbs or takes some damage to the brain that causes some brain damage or memory loss? And what if he is disintigrated like with the situation when he "died" at the Ocean Palace?
The Ocean Palace incident is a special case. There was no opportunity to resurrect Crono, and the blast that destroyed his body may not have been a standard magical attack.
Robo: If we're caught in that
energy field, our molecular structure
will be disrupted!
I think Lavos completely dispersed or absorbed Crono's energy.
The battle system doesn't offer any information on what injuries characters can sustain. I equate hit points with energy and not physical condition. Crono's physical state is determined by his elemental properties. As long as he has adequate energy, Crono's body will remain intact.
If Crono's physical body is disabled or destroyed, an information signature will be retained for a short time in his elemental energy. Healing will restore him to his natural state.
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The laws of physics did not change in the story. The programmer introduced a different magic system. Unless we throw the continuity of the Chrono series out the window, the Dragonian and Magical elements have to coexist.
Why do you think I tagged it "reality check"? This is looking at it from beyond the fourth wall. The programmers needed a new system, so they changed it, so that even Lavos (or the closest equivalent we see) uses this system.
I don't think Chrono Cross breaks continuity with Chrono Trigger. Dragonian Elements were introduced as part of the story, not a purely game play mechanism. If there is no continuity between the games, then this discussion is pointless.
Ancient Greeks such as Aristotle were philosophers, not scientists. Scientists use the scientific method. The magical elements are not comparable to the Aristotelean elements because because the actually exist.
Are you changing your hypothesis? You originally stated that the magical elements were artificial. The Dragonian Elements are artifacts which utilize the planet's energy.
1. Back then, philosophers were as close as it came to scientists, and this point is completely irrelevant to our discussion.
True, but I wanted to make the distinction.
2. Which actually exist? The Aristotelean elements are aspects of nature, but not in any way they thought. The magical elements of CT don't exist either.
The magical elements of CT absolutely do exist. The magical elements are real physical forces which can be harnessed to produce various effects in the Chrono universe. The power of the elements may be easily demonstrated. The Aristotelean elements constitute a flawed model to describe nature. Fire, Air, Water and Earth are not actual physical properties.
3. Changing my hypothesis? Do you even know how the scientific method works? Once you've started an experiment or analysis, your hypothesis is set in stone, and it's also meaningless. While I'm in a discussion, I allow my theories to change based on available information and my developing thoughts on the matter; to do otherwise is unscientific. You might want to consider this yourself, rather than sticking blindly to one side of an argument.
This is uncalled for. I know perfectly well what the scientific method is. You did change your hypothesis. You originally stated that the magical elements were created by Lavos.
Elements are a natural phenomena of the world. Magic as seen in CT is artificial, as are its elements; they were brought to the planet by Lavos and it's his influence that enables it.
You then stated that the magical elements were natural physical forces, but secondary to the Dragonian elemental colors.
Now, in CC, the Dragonians have taught us that reality is actually made up of six elements, which mingle together to form the aforementioned four.
If you change the premise of your argument, you should be clear about what you changed and why to avoid confusion.
4. Looking back on my posts, I don't see myself claiming the (CC)[CT?] elements are artificial. I did theorize that the CT elements may be a simplification.
Yes, you did.
Elements are a natural phenomena of the world. Magic as seen in CT is artificial, as are its elements; they were brought to the planet by Lavos and it's his influence that enables it.
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.
How do you know any of this?
Since magic works in 65 million BC before Lavos arrives, I conclude that it functions without Lavos' influence.
Prophet: Oh, my name is Belthasar... In the ancient, magical Kingdom of Zeal, I was
known as a sage of reason... Well, that was up until the Queen of Zeal attempted to
harness the power of Lavos... Let's just say, things got out of control and Lavos
created a dimensional vortex that threw me far into the future! There, I seized the
opportunity to study the science of the future... I was then able to apply to that
the knowledge I brought from my own era, including magic, which was long lost in the
future.
Belthasar can use Magic in 2300 AD after Lavos is destroyed.
Spekkio is a self proclaimed god, and a being of great power.
"self proclaimed"
Regardless of whether Spekkio is actually a god, he is a very wise and powerful being.
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I don't think Chrono Cross breaks continuity with Chrono Trigger. Dragonian Elements were introduced as part of the story, not a purely game play mechanism. If there is no continuity between the games, then this discussion is pointless.
I once again raise the point that the Time Devourer (Lavos) uses CC Elements. If, as your theory goes, CC Elements are purely artificial technology, then how did he gain access to them in the DBT? Also, how come every monster in the game is able to use them, plus has their own stockpile?
Now, if CC Elements are natural, it makes sense that animals would have evolved to use them. In fact, this is the point that leads me most strongly to believe that CC Elements are the natural form of magic, while CT magic (which no monsters use) is more artificial.
The magical elements of CT absolutely do exist. The magical elements are real physical forces which can be harnessed to produce various effects in the Chrono universe. The power of the elements may be easily demonstrated. The Aristotelean elements constitute a flawed model to describe nature. Fire, Air, Water and Earth are not actual physical properties.
Well, the Aristotelean elements do exist, just not in the elemental way he theorized. This could be analogous to the CT elements, they do exist in the CT universe, but they're not quite as elemental as Spekkio believes.
This is uncalled for. I know perfectly well what the scientific method is. You did change your hypothesis. You originally stated that the magical elements were created by Lavos.
I call 'em as I see 'em. Never enter a scientific discussion unprepared to bend.
Now, you seem to have trouble differentiating a hypothesis from a theory.
A hypothesis is a proposition made at the beginning of an investigation. One intends to verify whether the hypothesis is accurate by gathering evidence.
A theory is a proposition made after heavy analysis in an attempt to explain reality. Theories change often, and I never set my theories in stone.
Then we get into a bit of confusion about whether we're talking about the CC Elements or CT elements...
What I meant by saying that the CT elements are artificial is that these elements were created as a basis for CT-type magic, and are not purely natural as the CC colors are.
My discussion of Lavos enabling the CT magic and stuff is just a possible explanation of why we don't see CC-style magic in CT. We can use CT-magic at any point as the basic CC-elements permeate the world at any point in the timeline, and these are the true building blocks needed for any form of magic.
Now: Spekkio. This analysis depends heavily on what his true nature is. If we take him to be...
A creation of Gaspar: He'd know no more about magic than Gaspar, who came from the age of Lavos-powered magic. It would make sense that Gaspar would have "programmed" his theories on magic into Spekkio, right or wrong.
The embodiment of CT magic: His perception of the universe would be limited entirely to the CT elements. He doesn't notice--and isn't harmed by--Crono's sword as it isn't made of the CT elements. Without delving too much into the metaphysical, if he only knows the elements as the universe, he would say that everything is made of the elements.
A true god: Everything he says is fact. Well, unless he's capricious or just crazy, and would lie on purpose. Maybe even a god's knowledge is limited.
A nu: Who the hell knows what's up with nus.
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Spekkio does say that everything is based on the balance of the CT elements. However as Leebot was saying, if Spekkio has any sort of creation connection to Gaspar, his knowledge is limited as such. Spekkio, therefore, would be able to harness the CT elements like all humans influenced by Lavos and wouldnt know any better. And now that I think about it, what monsters do use the CT elements? well wait, many of them. Their magical attacks cause elemental damage dont they? You can prove that by wearing the elemental absorbing armors. If they didnt use elements, those armors wouldnt absorb anything.
So all I'm saying is: (1) Spekkio's words probably dont relate to the issue as he may have some sort of "creation connection" to Gaspar, so his knowledge may be skewed. and... (2) Monsters in CT do harness CT elements as element absorbing armors prove.
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The monsters in CT that use magic/CT elements generally fall into one of the following two categories:
1. Somehow related to Zeal. The place is flooded with elemental energy, it's not surprising that it would seep into monsters. It might mutate them and allow them to harness it.
2. Mystics. Mystics are somewhat sentient, and they can use CT magic naturally.
This is unlike CC where the common lizards you find around the beach can harness elements.
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The monsters in CT that use magic/CT elements generally fall into one of the following two categories:
1. Somehow related to Zeal. The place is flooded with elemental energy, it's not surprising that it would seep into monsters. It might mutate them and allow them to harness it.
2. Mystics. Mystics are somewhat sentient, and they can use CT magic naturally.
This is unlike CC where the common lizards you find around the beach can harness elements.
As I recall (correct me if i'm wrong), humans can use magic because of the evolutionary effects brought upon us by Lavos. I dont remember other monsters being affected by the FF or hearing anything similar.
Also i have a thought: the elements in chrono cross are interchangable between characters, however their special skills are not. Using your example of forks and teeth from earlier, isnt it more natural to unlock an ability inside of you rather than use a tool from the outside? You can buy sell and trade elements, but those inner abilities are yours and yours alone. Perhaps some of those skills, such a Luminaire and ForeverZero, are magic based only on the CT elements. As for the TD using CC elements, I'm not sure how to explain that, other than it being a game mechanic, but Lavos uses CT elements. Magic based on CT elements seem to emphasize individuality. Then again, i could always be wrong.
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I don't think Chrono Cross breaks continuity with Chrono Trigger. Dragonian Elements were introduced as part of the story, not a purely game play mechanism. If there is no continuity between the games, then this discussion is pointless.
I once again raise the point that the Time Devourer (Lavos) uses CC Elements. If, as your theory goes, CC Elements are purely artificial technology, then how did he gain access to them in the DBT? Also, how come every monster in the game is able to use them, plus has their own stockpile?
The Dragon Gods were originally a singular plasma life-form... ...A living accumulation of
the planet's energy! Originally it was a biological machine used to control the powers
of nature in the future society of the Reptites. In order to control the natural energy
itself, FATE divided the one Dragon God entity up into 6 weaker plasma life-forms...
Then scattered them across the land and sealed them away. Their dragon-like appearance
are just pseudo-guises... ...Temporary forms they take so that they can appear in this
dimension.
Belthasar: That thing... the "Dragon God"... is only a quasi-existence... ...A
temporary form that the real Dragon God uses in order to appear within this dimension.
The actual Dragon God was consumed long ago, in the distant past... Integrated by the
entity known as Lavos in a time on the other side of the dimensional darkness.
The Dragon God was integrated into the Time Devourer, so it stands to reason that it can use Elements.
El Nido is a small artificial archipelago with an isolated population. Elements are clearly abundant. The wildlife had thousands of years to adapt to using Elements. I wouldn't be surprised if the creatures were engineered to use Elements by FATE or the Dragonians.
Now, if CC Elements are natural, it makes sense that animals would have evolved to use them. In fact, this is the point that leads me most strongly to believe that CC Elements are the natural form of magic, while CT magic (which no monsters use) is more artificial.
There is some confusion about terminology.
Magical Elements: four fundamental forces of the Chrono universe (says Spekkio). Natural in that they are definitely physical properties of the universe. Numerous living things and machines have abilities and resistances based on the elements.
Magic: a technique to harness the power of the elements to produce various effects. Its use is limited to living things with an innate ability. Not natural because magical ability was probably introduced by Lavos.
Dragonian Elemental Colors: a classification system of elemental effects based on the natural energy of the planet. Natural, because all entities have an innate elemental color.
Dragonian Elements: equipable artifacts which can produce an elemental effect. Natural? We're not sure how they are manufactured (or what they look like), but they are obviously related to the Dragon Gods. Elements do not represent an innate ability of living things to harness natural energy.
The magical elements of CT absolutely do exist. The magical elements are real physical forces which can be harnessed to produce various effects in the Chrono universe. The power of the elements may be easily demonstrated. The Aristotelean elements constitute a flawed model to describe nature. Fire, Air, Water and Earth are not actual physical properties.
Well, the Aristotelean elements do exist, just not in the elemental way he theorized. This could be analogous to the CT elements, they do exist in the CT universe, but they're not quite as elemental as Spekkio believes.
OK. Air is a mixture of gases, Fire is a combination of gas, particles, heat and light produced by a chemical reaction. Water is a chemical substance in liquid form. Earth is a mixture of chemical substances in solid form. Is anything actually made up of these components?
This is uncalled for. I know perfectly well what the scientific method is. You did change your hypothesis. You originally stated that the magical elements were created by Lavos.
I call 'em as I see 'em. Never enter a scientific discussion unprepared to bend.
Now, you seem to have trouble differentiating a hypothesis from a theory.
A hypothesis is a proposition made at the beginning of an investigation. One intends to verify whether the hypothesis is accurate by gathering evidence.
A theory is a proposition made after heavy analysis in an attempt to explain reality. Theories change often, and I never set my theories in stone.
Now see here, I complained because you were making it difficult to follow your argument. There is no reason to insult my intelligence. I might add that this is not a scientific investigation because there is no way to test our predictions through experimentation. We are analyzing a creative work using logic.
Then we get into a bit of confusion about whether we're talking about the CC Elements or CT elements...
What I meant by saying that the CT elements are artificial is that these elements were created as a basis for CT-type magic, and are not purely natural as the CC colors are.
My discussion of Lavos enabling the CT magic and stuff is just a possible explanation of why we don't see CC-style magic in CT. We can use CT-magic at any point as the basic CC-elements permeate the world at any point in the timeline, and these are the true building blocks needed for any form of magic.
Who "created" the magical elements?
Dragonian Elemental usage involves activating an equipable artifact. These devices are so widespread in El Nido that nearly every entity you encounter can use them.
Now: Spekkio. This analysis depends heavily on what his true nature is. If we take him to be...
A creation of Gaspar: He'd know no more about magic than Gaspar, who came from the age of Lavos-powered magic. It would make sense that Gaspar would have "programmed" his theories on magic into Spekkio, right or wrong.
Magic is powered by the elements. The Mammon Machine is the only magical connection to Lavos, and before it was constructed, the Zealians used the Sun Stone's energy.
The Queen has sealed the Elemental
Weapons in the north palace.
You can see its entrance on the
northern continent, but no one is
allowed there.
Combine the ancient Rainbow Shell and
the Sun Stone to create incredible
weapons and items.
But now, only the Guru of Life has the
skill.
Elemental power usage is forbidden.
That's the Sun Keep you see on the
southern continent. A Sun Stone, once
the source of this world's power, was
kept there.
But when we began using our new
energy source, it was sealed up just
like the north palace.
They claim we don't need the energy
of this tired, old planet.
Zeal's advances stem from a new
energy source. Its power surpasses
that of the elements.
The embodiment of CT magic: His perception of the universe would be limited entirely to the CT elements. He doesn't notice--and isn't harmed by--Crono's sword as it isn't made of the CT elements. Without delving too much into the metaphysical, if he only knows the elements as the universe, he would say that everything is made of the elements.
If Spekkio's perception were this limited, how could he even interact with the time travelers? I don't believe that Spekkio could be this stupid. You are also assuming that the Magical Elements are not physical components of the universe.
A true god: Everything he says is fact. Well, unless he's capricious or just crazy, and would lie on purpose. Maybe even a god's knowledge is limited.
A nu: Who the hell knows what's up with nus.
There really is no reason to assume Spekkio is incorrect. Where do the Dragon Gods stae that the six elements are the basis for reality?
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Are CC Elements older? I didn't think it specifically stated when the Dragonians found them, only when the Dragonians came into existance and the fact that they did find them.
There's another aspect of the CC Elements that people seem to look over. I believe that it's entirely possible that Lavos is responsible for them as well. We know that CC Elements come from power points from the earth, perhaps like how lava comes up from cracks in the tectonic plates? That said, since they come from somewhere deep in the earth, could they not have been effected by Lavos's presence?
Like it (Lavos) absorbs the earth's power, we saw that the earth also absorbed it's (Lavos's) power through Dreamstone. Perhaps the CC Elements are akin to Dreamstone.
Ok maybe they apeared later than ct magic. But there is no diference because i doubt that Spekkio or someone from crono & co said to all world that there are 4 main elements.
Another interesting thing is that ct magic is not usable by robots and cc elements are usable by them and they got their initianal color.
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This is starting to get circular, so a few new points:
Evolution of major traits (such as the ability to use Elements) doesn't work on the scale of thousands of years, it takes millions of years. It doesn't seem likely that the animals of El Nido would evolve this quickly. Additionally, we see robots of the Dead Sea's Chronopolis using Elements, and from the way the Tragediennes speak, it sounds like they were programmed to use them (how else would they be able to? They're not going to evolve). Now, there's no one left in the Dead Sea to program them, so they must have known to use elements in the future the Dead Sea was drawn from.
The same thing happens in Chronopolis: Its automated defense systems use Elements. Given their stated goal of allowing history to proceed naturally, they would not have allowed the knowledge of Elements to leak out. Even if this was inevitable, they wouldn't have allowed Elements to become a part of their own design. Therefore, they must have
a. been using Elements before the Time Crash, and thus before the Dragonian interference.
b. decided to reprogram their entire defense systems to use the Elements they'd found. Why? So GrayLensman would be happy.
Now, an alternative theory:
What if the laws of physics did change? This would have happened during the Time Crash, when Chronopolis and Terra Tower were pulled back to 9000 BC. The travel of Chronopolis wouldn't have these results, but the planet's pulling in Terra Tower just might. If the Elements were the natural way in the Dragonian dimension, pulling Terra Tower over could have caused the laws of physics that governed that dimension to leak over and alter the keystone dimension.
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Evolution of major traits (such as the ability to use Elements) doesn't work on the scale of thousands of years, it takes millions of years. It doesn't seem likely that the animals of El Nido would evolve this quickly. Additionally, we see robots of the Dead Sea's Chronopolis using Elements, and from the way the Tragediennes speak, it sounds like they were programmed to use them (how else would they be able to? They're not going to evolve). Now, there's no one left in the Dead Sea to program them, so they must have known to use elements in the future the Dead Sea was drawn from.
And why are you forgeting about fate? It had full control over El Nido. Yes evolution takes a long long time, but what about variuos expiriments? And if i`m not mistaken in the future there were no monsters in Dead Sea and again why are you forgeting about fate? Can`t it program? Fates AI is astonishing so it would easily learn such things as programing.
The same thing happens in Chronopolis: Its automated defense systems use Elements. Given their stated goal of allowing history to proceed naturally, they would not have allowed the knowledge of Elements to leak out. Even if this was inevitable, they wouldn't have allowed Elements to become a part of their own design. Therefore, they must have
a. been using Elements before the Time Crash, and thus before the Dragonian interference.
b. decided to reprogram their entire defense systems to use the Elements they'd found. Why? So GrayLensman would be happy.
and c. elemental defence is more useful than their previuos defence
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Well, that, and there's a quote in Chronopolis that reads:
The El Nido Archipelago is purely
artificial, created by FATE. It was a remodeling plane that took place 10000 years ago.
A plan to include island, blessed with nature, in the sea of El Nido. The main island of
El Nido, Earth Dragon Isle, Water Dragon Isle, Black Dragon Isle... The development of
Elements, using the energy of the natural world...
This suggests Chronopolis had a role in fostering and developing those manufactured Elements. Since they created them, I don't believe it would be too hard to equip themselves with it, since they apparently do have the capacity for immortality (although in reduced form; those ghosts still aren't entirely figured out).
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With Lavos crashing into the Earth, maybe it's something that Lavos, under normal Lavos circumstances, wouldn't survive. A bird learns to fly on instinct. So, baby Lavos gets old enough to leave the planet it's born on, crashes into the Earth, and on instinct uses a form of Magus's Magic Wall spell on a large, powerful scale.
As for the CC Elements, I always thought of them similar to FF7's materia. As in, artificially created from places where the planet's energy is close to the surface and can be harnessed, and thereby not the natural elements of the world, like those Spekkio stated, but rather physical effects of the world imbued into whatever the Elements are. By this I mean Magic is the 'elemental energy' or the world, but Elements produce physical energy effects based off of the four elements.
It would be helpful if we had actually seen any Elements in CC, but meh, what can ya do?
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It would be helpful if we had actually seen any Elements in CC, but meh, what can ya do?
We do see the Chrono Cross. The Chrono Cross is the combination of 2 Dragon Tears, which are some kinds of crystals.
Maybe the huge colored crystals in Terra Tower are also Elements (they look like Mega-Materias anyway...).
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Evolution of major traits (such as the ability to use Elements) doesn't work on the scale of thousands of years, it takes millions of years. It doesn't seem likely that the animals of El Nido would evolve this quickly. Additionally, we see robots of the Dead Sea's Chronopolis using Elements, and from the way the Tragediennes speak, it sounds like they were programmed to use them (how else would they be able to? They're not going to evolve). Now, there's no one left in the Dead Sea to program them, so they must have known to use elements in the future the Dead Sea was drawn from.
Adapt not evolve. Elements are equipable artifacts and animals only have to learn how to use them. Elemental usage is not an innate ability like Magic.
The Dead Sea is a reflection of the future. Since the arrival of Porre, Elements have been available to the outside world. It stands to reason that Elements would be in widespread use on the mainland in the far future.
The same thing happens in Chronopolis: Its automated defense systems use Elements. Given their stated goal of allowing history to proceed naturally, they would not have allowed the knowledge of Elements to leak out. Even if this was inevitable, they wouldn't have allowed Elements to become a part of their own design. Therefore, they must have
a. been using Elements before the Time Crash, and thus before the Dragonian interference.
b. decided to reprogram their entire defense systems to use the Elements they'd found. Why? So GrayLensman would be happy.
FATE created a chain of artificial islands. FATE wanted El Nido to remain isolated, but it had other priorities as well.
What if the laws of physics did change? This would have happened during the Time Crash, when Chronopolis and Terra Tower were pulled back to 9000 BC. The travel of Chronopolis wouldn't have these results, but the planet's pulling in Terra Tower just might. If the Elements were the natural way in the Dragonian dimension, pulling Terra Tower over could have caused the laws of physics that governed that dimension to leak over and alter the keystone dimension.
If the laws of physics did change it would cause a complete reordering of the structure of the universe, most likely killing everyone. Since there is no evidence to support this, I think it is very unlikely.
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Well, that, and there's a quote in Chronopolis that reads:
The El Nido Archipelago is purely
artificial, created by FATE. It was a remodeling plane that took place 10000 years ago.
A plan to include island, blessed with nature, in the sea of El Nido. The main island of
El Nido, Earth Dragon Isle, Water Dragon Isle, Black Dragon Isle... The development of
Elements, using the energy of the natural world...
This suggests Chronopolis had a role in fostering and developing those manufactured Elements. Since they created them, I don't believe it would be too hard to equip themselves with it, since they apparently do have the capacity for immortality (although in reduced form; those ghosts still aren't entirely figured out).
That could be due to the effects of Terra Tower described in Leebot's alternate theory, I believe.
What if the laws of physics did change? This would have happened during the Time Crash, when Chronopolis and Terra Tower were pulled back to 9000 BC. The travel of Chronopolis wouldn't have these results, but the planet's pulling in Terra Tower just might. If the Elements were the natural way in the Dragonian dimension, pulling Terra Tower over could have caused the laws of physics that governed that dimension to leak over and alter the keystone dimension.
Evolution of major traits (such as the ability to use Elements) doesn't work on the scale of thousands of years, it takes millions of years. It doesn't seem likely that the animals of El Nido would evolve this quickly.
That's true. However, (1) The enemies in CT harness the 4 primary elements discussed in that game, its a fact. (2) The monsters on El Nido look nothing like any of the monsters found in CT, so perhaps these natural elements found in CC are harnessed only in El Nido. (3) Its true that evolution usually does not work that fast in the real world, but El Nido was artificially created and is relatively young, so where did all of those land based monsters live before El Nido was created, I'm sure they didnt evolve to live on the land and I sure dont see them on the Zenan continent. In fact, they wouldnt be taken from the Zenan continent either if it could be helped; Chronopolis could not interfere with the world because it had to preserve itself.
Something interesting not yet noticed: Because the monsters of CT and CC are completely different, its hard to compare them. It would be nice if we had a few monsters who carried over from CT to CC. Lavos seems to be the only example, but hes not really the same as he was in CT. But what about Slash, Flea, and Ozzie? In CT they harnessed the 4 primary elements, but in CC they use Draconian elements. So, what could that mean? Again, I say that in CC, characters and enemies use a mixture magic based on CT elements (individual, non-exchangable techs) and the CC elements (exchangable, common).
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It would be nice if we had a few monsters who carried over from CT to CC.
Perhaps the Pterodacts are supposed to be Dactyls, and the "Tyrano" the same kind of dinosaurs than the Black and Rust Tyranos were?
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Adapt not evolve. Elements are equipable artifacts and animals only have to learn how to use them. Elemental usage is not an innate ability like Magic.
Go teach a monkey to use a hammer, then I'll give this argument some weight. Better yet, leave a hammer by a monkey, and see if it learns to use it on its own.
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Alright, maybe I can buy that FATE engineered them, but this begs the question of "Why?" Same question with the elements used in the Dead Sea and Chronopolis.
Now, for the changing laws of physics: What if it's as simple as two new elements (For point of argument, Yellow and Green) seeping into the world? Over time (again with the time-scale...), new organism may develop an affinity to one of these elements, which is why in CC we see people with Yellow and Green innates.
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Adapt not evolve. Elements are equipable artifacts and animals only have to learn how to use them. Elemental usage is not an innate ability like Magic.
Go teach a monkey to use a hammer, then I'll give this argument some weight. Better yet, leave a hammer by a monkey, and see if it learns to use it on its own.
Apes make and use their own tools. Elements come pre-packaged and are easy to use. After thousands of years of trial and error, Elemental usage would become part of the animals' natural behavior. Also, most of the creatures encontered in combat are highly aggressive and intelligent. I wouldn't count out the influence of the Dragonians either.
Alright, maybe I can buy that FATE engineered them, but this begs the question of "Why?" Same question with the elements used in the Dead Sea and Chronopolis.
Now, for the changing laws of physics: What if it's as simple as two new elements (For point of argument, Yellow and Green) seeping into the world? Over time (again with the time-scale...), new organism may develop an affinity to one of these elements, which is why in CC we see people with Yellow and Green innates.
[list=1]- The use of Elements in Chronopolis and the Dead Sea has already been explained. Elements are a superior technology. Chronopolis adopted and further developed them after the Time Crash, and the Dead Sea reflects the far future where Elemental usage has become commonplace outside of El Nido.
- You are suggesting altering the fundamental forces which govern the universe. Life as we know it depends on a very fine balance of physical relationships. Even the slightest change to one of the physical constants would make the universe hostile to life. There is absolutely nothing to suggest such a change occurred.[/list:o]
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I said "monkey," not "ape."
Do you understand evolution at all? Even if one animal lucks into figuring out how to use an element, this knowledge will not be passed on to its offspring, and short of Chimps and Orangutans, no animals are smart enough to teach their offspring these skills.
Where do you get that these animals are intelligent? Agressive, yes, that's a given. Intelligent enough to figure out that elements can be used as tools? Not likely.
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I said "monkey," not "ape."
Do you understand evolution at all? Even if one animal lucks into figuring out how to use an element, this knowledge will not be passed on to its offspring, and short of Chimps and Orangutans, no animals are smart enough to teach their offspring these skills.
Where do you get that these animals are intelligent? Aggressive, yes, that's a given. Intelligent enough to figure out that elements can be used as tools? Not likely.
Various creatures, including non sentient animals, use Elements in Chrono Cross. Serge can kill these animals and take their Elements. What is the basis for your argument?
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Let's rewind to the point.
Evolution of major traits (such as the ability to use Elements) doesn't work on the scale of thousands of years, it takes millions of years. It doesn't seem likely that the animals of El Nido would evolve this quickly.
Hmm, guess I didn't spell it out well enough there.
If elements were new, (introduced at most 10,000 years ago), the animals wouldn't have enough time to evolve to use them.
If elements were natural, animals would have had millions of years to evolve to use them, which would explain why we see animals using them in Chrono Cross.
The possible flaw in this theory is that we never use of elements in CT. Perhaps they were used, but Crono's party didn't recognize them as such. Or, there's that wierd "Lavos sealing the Elements theory" that doesn't even make much sense to me... Crono & Co. not identifying them seems more likely.
Now, in the defense of the altered laws theory (which is starting to seem like a reasonable way to wave away the difference in game mechanics between CT and CC). Given our lack of understanding of the true laws of nature of this world (we lack the ability to experiment as I'd prefer), we can't really say what's going on, but imagine this model:
We have two "Planes" to the world: The Material Plane and the Mana Plane. The real world exists in the Material Plane. The Mana Plane is mostly a miasma of elemental energy (originally Fire, Ice, Heaven, and Shadow). When someone uses magic in any way, they draw the element(s) they need from the Mana Plane, and do whatever with it. These elements pervade the Material Plane, and slowly seep back into the Mana Plane to maintain equilibrium.
What would happen if new elements were released into the Mana Plane according to this model? Well, the Mana Plane's only contact with the Material Plane is when magic is cast, so it would have no initial effect. When Dragonians use their Yellow and Green Elements, Yellow and Green elemental energy is released into the Material Plane. As I said before, eventually, its concentration in the Material Plane will build up enough that people with Yellow and Green innates appear.
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It would be nice if we had a few monsters who carried over from CT to CC.
Perhaps the Pterodacts are supposed to be Dactyls, and the "Tyrano" the same kind of dinosaurs than the Black and Rust Tyranos were?
Yes thats possible. I also just remembered that when you are in chronopolis and look at the map of El Nido before the extra continents were added, Gaea's Navel (where those monsters reside) was already there. Thanks for pointing that out to me, Chrono'99.
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What about the personal techs used by the CC character?
They are Artifacts or what?
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What about the personal techs used by the CC character?
They are Artifacts or what?
What do you mean by artifacts? Well I believe that the personal techs are skills based on the CT system (no exchange of magic), not dragonian elements at all.
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I don't see what the problem is. Magic in CT is stated to be the basis of the universe. Magic in CC are something you equip that the Dragonians or Chronopolis made. What's the difference? All Element use can be explained fine. The games are in harmony with each other.
Furthermore...ah, hell, I had another thought, but it just slipped away. Damned long nights at work.
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The two main problems with that theory are:
1. Animals can use Elements. This is where we got into that whole evolution/teaching a monkey to use a hammer discussion.
2. Elements have two extra colors. If the CT elements were the basis for the universe, wouldn't it make more sense to build Elements to be based on them, rather than creating a new layer of complexity on top of them?
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What about the personal techs used by the CC character?
They are Artifacts or what?
What do you mean by artifacts? Well I believe that the personal techs are skills based on the CT system (no exchange of magic), not dragonian elements at all.
Some Level 7 Techs do appear as Elements in your inventory before you "equip" them on the appropriate character. That would remind me of the colored rocks from CT (which granted Triple Techs), except that you can't unequip those Lvl7 Techs-Elements once they are equipped, unlike the rocks... It's really confusing.
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The two main problems with that theory are:
1. Animals can use Elements. This is where we got into that whole evolution/teaching a monkey to use a hammer discussion.
2. Elements have two extra colors. If the CT elements were the basis for the universe, wouldn't it make more sense to build Elements to be based on them, rather than creating a new layer of complexity on top of them?
I will repeat myself
1. Fate "evolved' all monsters in El Nido region, why? Maybe to test her power?
2. Peoples which founded elements thought that evrything consists of 6 colors.
Why are you looking for such complicated answers?
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The two main problems with that theory are:
1. Animals can use Elements. This is where we got into that whole evolution/teaching a monkey to use a hammer discussion.
2. Elements have two extra colors. If the CT elements were the basis for the universe, wouldn't it make more sense to build Elements to be based on them, rather than creating a new layer of complexity on top of them?
I will repeat myself
1. Fate "evolved' all monsters in El Nido region, why? Maybe to test her power?
2. Peoples which founded elements thought that evrything consists of 6 colors.
Why are you looking for such complicated answers?
1. The method is possible but the motive is suspect. Doing this makes El Nido a lot more hazardous to its human inhabitants, which would work contrary to FATE's interests.
2. Not plausible.
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sorry, didn't mean to double post. Can someone delete that top one?
Perhaps FATE didn't mean for the monsters to even reach El Nido. They could have been lab animals from Chronopolis who happened to escape at some point, and then breed to create the species of monsters we see. It's been pointed out that none of them were seen in Chrono Trigger, so perhaps this explains it. Or perhaps FATE put them in El Nido as an experiment, and kept them there in a similar way as they did the humans. Who's to say the monsters had no records of fate?
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History of points
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Body and Revival
Status: Resolved
Yeah, it all makes sense to me pretty much. I also had a theory of my own that all of the Magic attributes, if that is the right word for it, such as Heaven/Lightning, Fire, Ice/Water, and Shadow, all fit into different Element/Elemental attributes, again if that is the right word for it.
One thing concerns me though. The part about how...
If Crono's physical body is damaged to the point that his biological systems fail, Marle can restore him while his elemental energy remains. Healing is simply the reinforcement of an entity's elemental energy.
Does this only refer to when Crono dies, but his physical body is still pretty much intact? What if he loses some limbs or takes some damage to the brain that causes some brain damage or memory loss? And what if he is disintigrated like with the situation when he "died" at the Ocean Palace?
The Ocean Palace incident is a special case. There was no opportunity to resurrect Crono, and the blast that destroyed his body may not have been a standard magical attack.
Robo: If we're caught in that
energy field, our molecular structure
will be disrupted!
I think Lavos completely dispersed or absorbed Crono's energy.
The battle system doesn't offer any information on what injuries characters can sustain. I equate hit points with energy and not physical condition. Crono's physical state is determined by his elemental properties. As long as he has adequate energy, Crono's body will remain intact.
If Crono's physical body is disabled or destroyed, an information signature will be retained for a short time in his elemental energy. Healing will restore him to his natural state.
Lavos Shell
Status: Resolved
Also, I think that Lavos' impact with the earth doesn't have to be that way. It could be, like with many newly born species, that Lavos simply has some kind of protective shell or barrier that protects it from the impact at that stage of it's development. Or, possibly, the "head" of the Lavos Shell is simply not there. It seems like, during the battle, the only thing that's really damages is the "head", and not the shell itself, perhaps this is because the shell is impervious to attack.
My estimate for the energy of Lavos' impact is based on the Chicxulub impact which exterminated the dinosaurs. Any impact which would cause this type of global climate change which lasts for millions of years would have to have a similar magnitude. No physical substance could withstand a 100 teraton explosion. “Over 200 thousand cubic kilometers of the Earth's crust was instantly vaporized, melted or ejected from the crater.” (http://www.agu.org/sci_soc/sharpton.html). This is what I mean by supernatural--if Lavos' shell protected it from the impact, its properties cannot be explained by natural laws.
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Nonelemental Problem
Status: Resolved
Perhaps non-elemental attacks are more created by the force of the individual. Maybe that's how the people in that thread meant by comparing Tail Spin to Slash. Both Techs use the character's inner magic to create the magical effect. Although Slash becomes Lightning Elemental (or wait, is it Lightning Elemental?) because of Crono's Magical Innateness and Tail Spin does not, both are still inner, chi-like magical attacks.
Ayla can produce a non-elemental effect because her body has increased elemental properties. A wind generated through ordinary means would not have any elemental effect. The tech causes a non-elemental magical affect because of the way the energy is directed at the target.
Crono's Slash attack causes a lightning elemental effect because his body has increased elemental properties and he has an innate element, which Ayla lacks.
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CT vs. CC Elements
Evolution of thought:
I dont think that the dragonian elements should be seen as so important to element discussion rather than the four primary elements displayed in CT. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they arent "natural". Sure every character is innately one or another but then again, chess isnt a natural game, and yet somehow people are born with talent for it. The characters are good at harnessing one type of element, while poor at harnessing its opposite, like how people who are very used to hot climates in the south and can deal with them easily are easily damaged by colder climates found in areas of the north. The universe isnt dependent upon the balance of the dragonian elements, so I dont see why they would be extremely important to the discussion.
CT still universal, CC artificial elements created by the Dragonians/Chronopolis.
Or, they might be more natural as they come from the culture that evolved without Lavos' corruption. It's possible the Draconian elements are the way they were meant to be (at least on this planet), while the CT elements are unnatural, and due to Lavos' corruption.
This reminds me of another interesting point: the six elemental dragons. They seem to be the ultimate representation of CC's paradigm. To use the chess metaphor, if we were to find out that a "Chess God" existed, we may start to question whether chess is really so artificial.
Difficulty:
But didnt the elements exist before Lavos? I thought only applied magic was created by Lavos (hence why Ayla cant use magic). In order to use magic in CT, you had to either be aware of your innate element, or had to have the ability to use applied magic unlocked. Also, the magic you used had to be of your own element, unless you paired up with someone else. The Dragonian elements seem to have the "just plug it in and use it" attitude. Not to sound completely stupid, but it sounds like the Bulma (from dragonball) solution to harnessing elemental power
Now let us get into statements and refutations:
Look at it along these lines: Elements are a natural phenomena of the world. Magic as seen in CT is artificial, as are its elements; they were brought to the planet by Lavos and it's his influence that enables it.
Here's why it makes more sense this way: Creatures evolve to make use of aspects of nature. We can see in CC that not only are humans able to use elements easily, but all monsters can as well. If elements were a part of nature, it would make sense that evolution would have caused creatures to be able to use them naturally.
In CT, however, nothing uses magic naturally, it has to be unlocked in one way or another. Magic is like a tool, you can't use it until you're taught how to use it (like a fork compared to ones teeth. One can use ones teeth instinctively, but will be puzzled by a fork until someone else teaches them how to use it).
Then why don't we see Element use in CT? <reality check>The programmers hadn't planned it yet.</reality check> Maybe Lavos had repressed the Elemental power of the planet when he erupted in 12,000 BC, and it was restored by the Dragonians when Terra Tower came to the world. Animals still had the ability to use Elements, as even 13,000 years (the unattainable maximum time) might not be enough to evolve it out of organisms.
Other evidence the Elements are natural: the mythology built up around them. Belthasar talks about the stars and moons representing the elemental dragons, which represent the elements. Given what he says with regards to the second moon, I infer that this is more than just a metaphor or myth; it's part of nature. We don't see the same thing with Lavos elements.
The point I'm trying to make is that the elemental divisions in CC are natural, while the divisions seen in CT are artificial simplifications (likely white and yellow combined to heaven, while green and blue combined to water, or something similar), brought by Lavos.
Difficulties: Spekkio states that four elements balance everything, not just magic. Chrono Trigger predates Chrono Cross, establishing this as the first system.
We can only assume Spekkio is telling the truth. The four elements form the basis for everything in the universe. This is a fact, clearly stated in the game.
Unless Lavos changed the laws of physics for the entire universe, it is not responsible for the existence of the magical elements. The elements existed in this form in 65 million BC before Lavos arrived, and in 2300 AD after Lavos was destroyed.
The Dragonian Elements and Color system cannot be more "natural" than the magical elements. The Elements were created by harnessing the planet's energy, rather than magically manipulating the fundamental forces of the universe.
The Language of Spekkio's statement is also clearly exclusive. There are no other magical elements. Any other physical property, including the Dragonian Elemental Colors, must be based on the four magical elements.
Lastly, we know the exact nature of the Dragons Gods, and they are far from Divine. They are the avatars of a multi-dimensional organic computer created by the Reptites. In other words, they represent the components of an artificial being.
<reality check>Actually, the laws of physics did change. When the programmers wrote CC, they changed the elemental system to cover six colors. Now, even the Time Devourer (=Lavos) uses elements.</reality check>
Difficulty: The Time Devourer consumed the Dragon God, giving him access to the ultimate elements, as well as probably they're entire arsenal.
Now, Spekkio may not have been lying, but he may have been wrong. If you'd asked an ancient greek scientist what made up the universe, they may have said:
Ancient Greek Scientist wrote:
Everything in the universe is made up of Earth, Air, Fire and Water.
He's not lying, but we know now that he's wrong. The evolution of science keeps leading us to lower and lower layers of reality. When atomic theory led us to believe that different atoms made up everything, we named different types of atoms "elements." Then we found out that atoms contained protons and electrons. Then we found out there were also neutrons. Then we find out protons and neutrons are made of quarks.
Difficulty: Since there is no real discovery science when dealing with fantasy worlds, one must take unchallenged statements to be real, unless they are later contradicted by the plot. The questioning of one statement unravels the validity of all the others. The only clear exception to this is the Marle paradox, in which Lucca seems to be lying, but this is reconciliable.
What's to say the same didn't happen in the CT/CC world? Spekkio thought that Fire/Water/Heaven/Shadow were elemental (why? Maybe because he only learned this from Gaspar, who only knew of Lavos-type magic. Maybe he's the embodiment of Lavos-type magic.), so he said this as fact. Now, in CC, the Dragonians have taught us that reality is actually made up of six elements, which mingle together to form the aforementioned four.
Difficulty: Spekkio is the God of War, quoted as "[seeing] all kinds of battles from here." It stands to reason that if the Elements were suppressed by Lavos according to Leebot's theory, they are assumed to have existed for some period prior. Spekkio, at the End of Time, would be able to see all time periods. Thus, he would have been able to see and understand Elements before Lavos would have repressed them under this structure.
Ancient Greeks such as Aristotle were philosophers, not scientists. Scientists use the scientific method. The magical elements are not comparable to the Aristotelean elements because because the actually exist.
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.
The CC script never states that the six elemental colors ever form the basis for reality.
Are you changing your hypothesis? You originally stated that the magical elements were artificial. The Dragonian Elements are artifacts which utilize the planet's energy. The Magical Elements may be secondary to the Elemental Colors, but this requires Spekkio's ignorance. Spekkio is a self proclaimed god, and a being of great power. Also, no one discovered the existence of these elements pior to the arrival of the Dragonians.
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.
How do you know any of this?
Since magic works in 65 million BC before Lavos arrives, I conclude that it functions without Lavos' influence. Belthasar can use Magic in 2300 AD after Lavos is destroyed.
Magic is powered by the elements. The Mammon Machine is the only magical connection to Lavos, and before it was constructed, the Zealians used the Sun Stone's energy.
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Why can little monsters use Elements?
El Nido is a small artificial archipelago with an isolated population. Elements are clearly abundant. The wildlife had thousands of years to adapt to using Elements. I wouldn't be surprised if the creatures were engineered to use Elements by FATE or the Dragonians.
Evolution of major traits (such as the ability to use Elements) doesn't work on the scale of thousands of years, it takes millions of years. It doesn't seem likely that the animals of El Nido would evolve this quickly. Additionally, we see robots of the Dead Sea's Chronopolis using Elements, and from the way the Tragediennes speak, it sounds like they were programmed to use them (how else would they be able to? They're not going to evolve). Now, there's no one left in the Dead Sea to program them, so they must have known to use elements in the future the Dead Sea was drawn from.
And why are you forgeting about fate? It had full control over El Nido. Yes evolution takes a long long time, but what about variuos expiriments? And if i`m not mistaken in the future there were no monsters in Dead Sea and again why are you forgeting about fate? Can`t it program? Fates AI is astonishing so it would easily learn such things as programming.
Adapt not evolve. Elements are equipable artifacts and animals only have to learn how to use them. Elemental usage is not an innate ability like Magic.
The Dead Sea is a reflection of the future. Since the arrival of Porre, Elements have been available to the outside world. It stands to reason that Elements would be in widespread use on the mainland in the far future.
Go teach a monkey to use a hammer, then I'll give this argument some weight. Better yet, leave a hammer by a monkey, and see if it learns to use it on its own.
Apes make and use their own tools. Elements come pre-packaged and are easy to use. After thousands of years of trial and error, Elemental usage would become part of the animals' natural behavior. Also, most of the creatures encontered in combat are highly aggressive and intelligent. I wouldn't count out the influence of the Dragonians either.
Chronopolis seemingly populated El Nido with organisms; if this is able to be accomplished, engineering them to have Element Grids and other mechanisms of defense is not out of the question. The Chronopolis computer is stated to contain an entire record of the planet's history until 2400 A.D. As for the question of why FATE would do any of this, consult the Analysis forum thread on FATE/Mother Brain; it had ambitions of becoming its own species and life force, and was quoted as wanting to create a paradise. Intelligent humans, such as those from Porre probably do not have too much trouble figuring out how to use an Element Grid.
The reason the Chrono Compendium has been the best site since it opened in July 2003 is conservative, strict adherence to what is given to us. While we can make our own terms, the concepts behind the names are usually clearly operating in the series, and even referenced. This has allowed us to explain the Dead Sea, while bubblebobby2000's FAQ failed because his pool of theorists had no policy, vision, or adherence, concocting complex solutions that were often baseless. Meanwhile, our restriction, through hours of hard deliberation (I have those AIM chats archived), granted us and continues to deliver a working model and testament to the Chrono series.
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Meh, I guess I can accept the theory of FATE messing with the animals of El Nido. Why? Gods are crazy; just look at Q. Now, there are still the robots in the Dead Sea to worry about; FATE doesn't have much of a hand there.
The other outstanding problem is the new color system in Chrono Cross. If a race is making powerful magical artifacts that store energy, it would seem to make more sense to base them off of elemental forces rather than trying to combine them in complicated ways (as would be the case for Green). Now, if we go back to my most recent theory (different elemental make-up in the Dragonian dimension), we could just say that these were the basic elements in their dimension.
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Meh, I guess I can accept the theory of FATE messing with the animals of El Nido. Why? Gods are crazy; just look at Q. Now, there are still the robots in the Dead Sea to worry about; FATE doesn't have much of a hand there.
The other outstanding problem is the new color system in Chrono Cross. If a race is making powerful magical artifacts that store energy, it would seem to make more sense to base them off of elemental forces rather than trying to combine them in complicated ways (as would be the case for Green). Now, if we go back to my most recent theory (different elemental make-up in the Dragonian dimension), we could just say that these were the basic elements in their dimension.
Wait, the dragonian dimension? Ok so the timeline where Lavos never landed on earth right? The way it was "supposed" to happen. As I recall GreyLensman saying elsewhere, the party's techs can be used in the prehistoric era even before Lavos landed. So the CT elements must have existed and governed before then. So even if Lavos had not landed, the primary elements would still be the basic elements of of the Dragonian dimension. So the reason for the existence of the color Green and the like in the elemental system is still hidden.
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Now, where does it say in the games that the only difference in the Dragonian dimension is that Lavos never landed? This is just an assumption that most seem to make.
Besides, this dimension (according to my theory) also has the four CT elements, but it also has two more. There's nothing that prevents these elements from being used.
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Hmm, while reading Rabid Joe's topic about the Chrono Cross, I came up with a theory. It has probably already been mentioned more or less from time to time, but I'm going to rephrase it clearly.
First, here are some quotes about the the "song of life" and the Chrono Cross Element :
--DNA-- -The Seeds of Life- The human body is made up of 50 to 60 million cells. Each of these cells contains genes in the form of DNA. These are the fundamental building blocks that exist inside the cell's chromosomes. They store genetic information that can be passed on from parent to child. The structure of DNA is common throughout all life, throughout all universes. Through DNA recombination, life-forms take on differing forms with variable abilities.
The DNA records are poems and music... Adenine and Thymine... Guanine and Cytosine... Rythm and Melody... Perhaps the DNA of the ones who made contact with the Flame is recomposed by the sound they generate within? I wonder if life-forms are just dreaming in and endless flow of music?
Hey, mister! Is that the Chrono Cross you guys have there? The Chrono Cross... The melody and harmony... It has the power to cross space and time and unify people's thoughts and feeling... It has the power to transfer memories... By using it as an Element, it has the power to draw on the sounds of the six colored Elements to produce a healing harmony... It has the power to combine the sounds of the world into one melody...
The Chrono Cross... It alone can combine the sounds of the planet that the six types of Elements produce! The melody and harmony that brim within all life-forms... Use the "song of life" to heal her enmity and suffering... We entreat you, Serge! Please save Schala...
As Spekkio says, Lighting, Fire, Water and Shadow are the core components of the universe. But perhaps the living beings are themselves made up of colors which are White, Black, Red, Blue, Green and Yellow. These colors would be based on the 4 first elements, but could be the primary components of life-forms as far as life is concerned. They could be the core units/colors/sounds of cells or something in the body, as the ghost in Chronopolis does describe DNA with 6 stuff : A,T,G,C, plus Rythm and Melody (note the capital letters on those 2 last stuff).
The normal Techs in CC would be colored because they involve living beings using their "living force" (mana? will-power?). The physical Techs in CT would also have to be "colored" with "life force", but maybe nobody noticed it back then since the term "living force" is not an actually deep concept. It is noticed in CC only because it was a religious concept for the Dragonians (it isn't much talked about in Chronopolis for instance).
As for Elements, they would just appear to be some kinds of materialized (or not?) life force.
(Side note : who knows, maybe Elements were used to instill life into robots, so that they on the one hand use Elements, and on the other hand never run out of energy even in the Dead Sea?).
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Hmm, while reading Rabid Joe's topic about the Chrono Cross, I came up with a theory. It has probably already been mentioned more or less from time to time, but I'm going to rephrase it clearly.
First, here are some quotes about the the "song of life" and the Chrono Cross Element :
--DNA-- -The Seeds of Life- The human body is made up of 50 to 60 million cells. Each of these cells contains genes in the form of DNA. These are the fundamental building blocks that exist inside the cell's chromosomes. They store genetic information that can be passed on from parent to child. The structure of DNA is common throughout all life, throughout all universes. Through DNA recombination, life-forms take on differing forms with variable abilities.
The DNA records are poems and music... Adenine and Thymine... Guanine and Cytosine... Rythm and Melody... Perhaps the DNA of the ones who made contact with the Flame is recomposed by the sound they generate within? I wonder if life-forms are just dreaming in and endless flow of music?
Hey, mister! Is that the Chrono Cross you guys have there? The Chrono Cross... The melody and harmony... It has the power to cross space and time and unify people's thoughts and feeling... It has the power to transfer memories... By using it as an Element, it has the power to draw on the sounds of the six colored Elements to produce a healing harmony... It has the power to combine the sounds of the world into one melody...
The Chrono Cross... It alone can combine the sounds of the planet that the six types of Elements produce! The melody and harmony that brim within all life-forms... Use the "song of life" to heal her enmity and suffering... We entreat you, Serge! Please save Schala...
As Spekkio says, Lighting, Fire, Water and Shadow are the core components of the universe. But perhaps the living beings are themselves made up of colors which are White, Black, Red, Blue, Green and Yellow. These colors would be based on the 4 first elements, but could be the primary components of life-forms as far as life is concerned. They could be the core units/colors/sounds of cells or something in the body, as the ghost in Chronopolis does describe DNA with 6 stuff : A,T,G,C, plus Rythm and Melody (note the capital letters on those 2 last stuff).
The normal Techs in CC would be colored because they involve living beings using their "living force" (mana? will-power?). The physical Techs in CT would also have to be "colored" with "life force", but maybe nobody noticed it back then since the term "living force" is not an actually deep concept. It is noticed in CC only because it was a religious concept for the Dragonians (it isn't much talked about in Chronopolis for instance).
As for Elements, they would just appear to be some kinds of materialized (or not?) life force.
(Side note : who knows, maybe Elements were used to instill life into robots, so that they on the one hand use Elements, and on the other hand never run out of energy even in the Dead Sea?).
I see this: The specific balances of the CT elements are what make up all that exists in the universe. The CC elements are physical representations of the "sound" given off by the living or 'living' (machines) beings in the universe. This manifestation of "sound" can be found at certain hotspots around the world and are able to be harnessed. As suggested before, these elements seem to be in crystal form, the same crystal form we see towards the end of CC inside Terra Tower.
So both elements can co-exist because their purposes for existence are independent of eachother.
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Q, though powerful and quite funny, isn't a god. Gods can't be outwitted, and yet both Picard and Janeway have defeated him on these grounds several times, but I digress.
Anyway, I hope it's not too late to add my two credits to this. As GrayLensman has said, the systems must work together for the series to make any sense. Therefore, I have come up with a theory that I believe accommodates both systems. It contains some ideas that have already been presented, but there are some modifications.
I tend to lean more towards the CT elements forming the basis for the universe, as they are analogies -- heaven and shadow represent the popular belief of light vs. darkness, God vs. Satan, etc. Fire and what should more correctly be termed Cold represent the activities of physical energy -- entering and leaving objects, redistributing itself through atomic motion. Those are the basic universal constants -- order, disorder, light, and darkness. But CC does not deal extensively with the metaphysics of the universe at large. Rather, it is more the story of this one planet, and objects interact differently with the nearby influence of an object as large as a planet -- especially if one takes planets, and the life that inhabits them, into account. The green and yellow elements consist of phenomena that only occur on a planet -- lightning, wind, nature-based powers, and the like. They are the colors that make up a planet's individuality, while the other four are universal constants that apply to that planet. Combining all of these ingredients produces the song of a planet -- our fair world has a melody which it sings to the life that can hear it, but it is but one of an uncountable number in the universe, all of which have their own voices to lend, hence the harmony metaphor. As Lavos wishes to consume all of the universe, it seems fitting that the combined power of the universe would stand against him.
So, basically, it boils down to this:
Heat, Cold, Heaven, Shadow -- Universal physical constants, the basis for all of physics and metaphysics in Chrono
(Green, Yellow) -- Strictly planetary phenomena, manifestations of a planet's spirit usable by "lesser" lifeforms
As far as the animals using elements go, these are likely simply denoted as Elements under the CC battle system, when in fact they are, to the animals, natural Tech skills -- the animals, as Leebot has pointed out, must have evolved or been evolved to use these abilities. The most likely explanation for humans using some of the same element abilities is that the Dragonians took the techniques from the animals -- they are extremely connected to the natural world, after all. Seeing as Chronopolis may be at least partly responsible, I move that they would use anything that would increase their power, regardless of its origin. Yes, some of the animals are extremely dangerous, but the Element resources to combat them have been made available to humans one way or another.
Part of this theory is, admittedly, poetic license based on story themes utilized in the series, but in this case, the case of dealing with a fictional universe possessing magic and spirits as one of its variables, that it is at least semi-permissible. Not only that, I do not believe that there is any piece I have left unaccounted for.
On the issue of the Lavos Shell, his facility with magic likely had something to do with the fact that he survived the impact.
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Perhaps Lavos basically turned his whole shell into Frozen Flames when he crashed on the planet (he did appear as red and fiery, before even entering the atmosphere), so that he either didn't sustain damages or managed to heal them using the Frozen Flames' properties (the healing/reversal stuff they speak about in Chronopolis, which may be magic or some time rewinding ability). That could have been during this crash or the falling into the atmosphere that one of the Flames broke off and formed "the" Frozen Flame we know about.
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Nice theory, but I still say Q is a god (or at least the Sci-Fi type of god). Being outwitted does nothing to prove one isn't a god. Look at Odin: He was outwitted by Fenrir in the events leading to Ragnarok (the end of the world). Only recent, monotheistic religions use the idea of gods being perfect. In almost all polytheistic religions, gods have their own flaws.
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I suppose Q would be much more like the Nordic or Greek gods than any monotheistic god, but yes.
I doubt that there were five thousand Frozen Flames that chipped off Lavos -- he wouldn't have a shell left.
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Well, spaceships entering Earth's atmosphere come equipped with a heat shield that's meant to burn away in the atmosphere. Maybe Lavos has something similar, which also handles the crash into the ground.
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Heat, Cold, Heaven, Shadow -- Universal physical constants, the basis for all of physics and metaphysics in Chrono
(Green, Yellow) -- Strictly planetary phenomena, manifestations of a planet's spirit usable by "lesser" lifeforms
Green and Yellow. Masa e Mune show theses colors and one say that he is the wind(green).
the pannels in the Black Omen show theses colors too, along with Zeal crest.
Maybe in Zeal they use the same elemental model as CC. Even because Zeal is Masato Kato idea, whithout changes by the rest of Ct developers.
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I'd say his magic enables him to project a head shield of some sort. Either way, he's got a fail-safe. A special layer of shell would work, but given that Lavos can engineer lifeforms, he'd probably have modified it to where it at least grows back so he can maintain maximum resistance against attack. However, I don't think he'd like the wait time, which is why I think a magic shield is more likely.
Good point about Masa and Mune. Should've remembered that myself. They're dream beings representing life. I don't think Zeal used the CC model, though, because Chronopolis, and in turn, Dinopolis, weren't around until 7600 B.C. as opposed to Zeal's fall 4400 years earlier, and in no case do Elements exist before the advent of those two forces.
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I'd say his magic enables him to project a head shield of some sort. Either way, he's got a fail-safe. A special layer of shell would work, but given that Lavos can engineer lifeforms, he'd probably have modified it to where it at least grows back so he can maintain maximum resistance against attack. However, I don't think he'd like the wait time, which is why I think a magic shield is more likely.
Wait the time...hes going to be there for millions of years, he has time. Perhaps the only purpose the Spawn have for having a super dense shell (try damaging it, sheesh) is so they can survive their initial impact on a planet and burrow into its surface. Afterwards, they begin absorbing the power of the planet, make genetic manipulations to achieve greater evolution, etc. and grow another hard shell to help them burrow back to the surface and begin reproduction.
Shouldnt we put this in a "Life Cycle of Lavos" or "Evolution of Lavos" topic thing instead of discussing it here?
EDIT: didnt feel like double posting, so im going to add this.
You are strong of will...!
That's why the Old One let you
through.
Long before you were born...
...there was a kingdom where magic
flourished.
Everyone there could use it!
But in time, people began to abuse
their powers. It got so bad that no
one was allowed to use magic except
wizards.
But you have it...determination, I
mean!
Magic needs power of the heart.
It needs inner strength.
Magic is divided into 4 types:
Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.
Ok, so at some point, somebody restriced the use of magic to only a certain few. I believe the people after the fall of Zeal decided that magic can only lead to more segregation of individuals, so they abandoned it.
Be that magic you use?
I hath heard only magicians wield it
now.
The only magicians we see in Frog's time are mystics (excluding Magus). I have come up with two reasonings as to how the mystics acquired magical abilities: (1) After the fall of Zeal they became free of servitude. As the humans abandoned magic, they embraced it as a way to eventually overrun their former masters.
(2) When Janus arrived in the Middle Ages, he taught Ozzie how to use magic to save his own life, promising that the mystics would be able to defeat the humans with ease. Eventually his fully developed powers allowed him to assume leadership of the mystics.
That's the biggest toy I've
ever seen...
Hey, you're not alive, are you?!
You've got great strength, however,
since I can't measure your inner
character, I can't give any magic to
you.
But your laser weapons will suffice.
They can inflict «Shadow» type
damage.
Apparently, assuming Spekkio could measure his inner character, Robo would be able to use magic. Unforutately I cant find the conversation between Spekkio and Ayla, but Spekkio states that Ayla cannot be given magic because she was born before it existed.
Not just magic, but
EVERYTHING is based on the balance
of these 4 powers.
Luckily this quote (and the fact that Crono and co can use magic in 65 mil BC) shows that magic was not created or brought to earth by Lavos, but the ability to harness the four elements without any physical device (such as a crystal like in CC) did come to earth with Lavos in that no creature on the planet had this ability until afterward. (dont be confused though, the power could be harnessed, which is why Crono and co are able to do it)
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Q is pretty much a god. The only reason anyone has really stopped him is because of the self-inflicted rules he puts on his power and what-not. As he's proven, if he wants, he could simply kill anyone if he wanted.
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That's the biggest toy I've
ever seen...
Hey, you're not alive, are you?!
You've got great strength, however,
since I can't measure your inner
character, I can't give any magic to
you.
But your laser weapons will suffice.
They can inflict «Shadow» type
damage.
Apparently, assuming Spekkio could measure his inner character, Robo would be able to use magic. Unforutately I cant find the conversation between Spekkio and Ayla, but Spekkio states that Ayla cannot be given magic because she was born before it existed.
SPEKKIO: All right!
Sweetheart!
Unfortunately, you were born before
magic existed! But you seem to have
other skills that will get you by.
Basically what you said.
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You are strong of will...!
That's why the Old One let you
through.
Long before you were born...
...there was a kingdom where magic
flourished.
Everyone there could use it!
But in time, people began to abuse
their powers. It got so bad that no
one was allowed to use magic except
wizards.
But you have it...determination, I
mean!
Magic needs power of the heart.
It needs inner strength.
Magic is divided into 4 types:
Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.
Ok, so at some point, somebody restriced the use of magic to only a certain few. I believe the people after the fall of Zeal decided that magic can only lead to more segregation of individuals, so they abandoned it.
That "somebody" who restricted magic was more likely than not Lavos. And instead of the word 'restricted', I'd say it's more fitting to call it 'locked'. As in, Lavos took away their ability to use magic when he realized how much of a threat it was to him, but he obviously couldn't take it away completely, more like he locked it away, seeing how Spekkio could unlock it. Wizards and Mystics and Magus could still use it because they could use in naturally, as in without the aid of the Mammon Machine or Sun Stone. I don't think that the former Enlightened Ones would have stopped using magic if they still had the ability to, because none of them knew what happened at the Ocean Palace, all they knew was that their world fell apart, literally. Considering that the sudden turn of events most likely madee life harder for everyone, if they could have used their magic to help out, they would have.
On a bit of a side note (sort of), I kept wizards and mystics separate because I don't think that when Frog or anyone else mentions wizards that they mean mystics. We know mystics use magic; as for wizards, we didn't see any wizards besides Magus in CT, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist, since in CC there are several wizards, like Guile (I can't remember any others at the moment).
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"Wizards" is a mistranslation.
According to Arc Impule's retranslation (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?p=5141#5141), Spekkio states that only the Mystics are able to use magic after the fall of Zeal.
A zillion years before you brats were born... There was a kingdom where magic thrived. In that world, everybody could use it.
But that kingdom drowned in its own power...
Since then, people haven't been able to use magic. Well, except for the Mystics, right?
But you guys have it. Your hearts are strong. Magic is the strength of your heart -- your power.
Magic consists of four powers: Heaven, Dark, Fire, and Water.
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Hmm, I wonder what makes the Mystics so special. Must be influence from Lavos. "Lets see which genes are stronger..."
The only magicians we see in Frog's time are mystics (excluding Magus). I have come up with two reasonings as to how the mystics acquired magical abilities: (1) After the fall of Zeal they became free of servitude. As the humans abandoned magic, they embraced it as a way to eventually overrun their former masters.
(2) When Janus arrived in the Middle Ages, he taught Ozzie how to use magic to save his own life, promising that the mystics would be able to defeat the humans with ease. Eventually his fully developed powers allowed him to assume leadership of the mystics.
So i guess (1) is closer-ish to being correct. Modified: (1) After the Fall of Zeal, Lavos, seeing the humans as a failure, began his gene experiments on the Mystics, giving them also the ability to use magic.
(2) Mystics could already use magic, after the fall of Zeal Lavos, seeing the humans as a failure, increased this ability (or let it evolve on its own overtime). This evolution could not be impeded as the humans had little power to stop it. Eventually the Mystic population increased and true rivalry began between the the mystics and humans. Only Lavos could really benefit from any outcome of the war.
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"Wizards" is a mistranslation.
According to Arc Impule's retranslation (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?p=5141#5141), Spekkio states that only the Mystics are able to use magic after the fall of Zeal.
A zillion years before you brats were born... There was a kingdom where magic thrived. In that world, everybody could use it.
But that kingdom drowned in its own power...
Since then, people haven't been able to use magic. Well, except for the Mystics, right?
But you guys have it. Your hearts are strong. Magic is the strength of your heart -- your power.
Magic consists of four powers: Heaven, Dark, Fire, and Water.
Ah. Well then, only Mystics and Magus could use magic then.
And about Mystics retaining their magic after the fall of Zeal, the magic they used probably wasn't drawn from the Mammon Machine or Sun Stone, so they used 'real' magic, like Magus's. By 'real', I mean born with the magic power; they didn't need an external source to gain their magic abilities from, how most of the Enlightened Ones did. Lavos either couldn't lock the Mystics' magic, or didn't for some reason, but considering the intellegence level of many of the Mystics, I think Lavos couldn't lock their magic. If he could, he would have, since magic was a great threat to him.
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Magic is a threat to Lavos, but he does not perceive it as such. He allows humans to hold magic for a long period of time, its all about attaining perfect evolution for Lavos, to use a planets living resources, find what is best, and give that to itself. If the mystics ever did acquire magic from a source outside of themselves, it was most likely Lavos.
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Good point about Masa and Mune. Should've remembered that myself. They're dream beings representing life. I don't think Zeal used the CC model, though, because Chronopolis, and in turn, Dinopolis, weren't around until 7600 B.C. as opposed to Zeal's fall 4400 years earlier, and in no case do Elements exist before the advent of those two forces.
Yes but I talk about how the Zealians see the elements that made the universe in theyr cosmology.
Another thing is those elementals books used in the puzzles in Kajar: Water, wind ,Fire
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Magic is a threat to Lavos, but he does not perceive it as such. He allows humans to hold magic for a long period of time, its all about attaining perfect evolution for Lavos, to use a planets living resources, find what is best, and give that to itself. If the mystics ever did acquire magic from a source outside of themselves, it was most likely Lavos.
If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.
Good point about Masa and Mune. Should've remembered that myself. They're dream beings representing life. I don't think Zeal used the CC model, though, because Chronopolis, and in turn, Dinopolis, weren't around until 7600 B.C. as opposed to Zeal's fall 4400 years earlier, and in no case do Elements exist before the advent of those two forces.
Yes but I talk about how the Zealians see the elements that made the universe in theyr cosmology.
Another thing is those elementals books used in the puzzles in Kajar: Water, wind ,Fire
About the books, Water and Fire, both in CT; but Wind seems to represent Crono's element (Lightning/Heaven) since he has some wind-ish attacks. Think about it: there are 4 elements in CT, with books for 3, where Shadow element is a combination of the other 3. I think that further represents that the 4 elements make up the universe, not the 6 CC Elements.
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If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.
I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.
I don't really see many (if any) of Crono's Techs as being really "wind"-based at all...Slash is obviously a chi-like attack, and the rest are either regular physical attacks or are lightning/heavenly.
The books I saw as just being a little Nu puzzle (wasn't it a Nu that tells you the "secret"?). Water summons Wind. Wind makes Fire dance. Wait...that's something I never really understood...Why the heck does Water summon Wind???
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If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.
I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.
I don't really see many (if any) of Crono's Techs as being really "wind"-based at all...Slash is obviously a chi-like attack, and the rest are either regular physical attacks or are lightning/heavenly.
The books I saw as just being a little Nu puzzle (wasn't it a Nu that tells you the "secret"?). Water summons Wind. Wind makes Fire dance. Wait...that's something I never really understood...Why the heck does Water summon Wind???
Could be some odd understanding that waves make the wind. Besides giving you the answer to the puzzle, it is probably meant to show the relationship between the elements.
EDIT: «The Mystery of Life»
Vol. 841, Ch. 26
All life begins with Nu and ends with
Nu...
This is the truth!
This is my belief!
...at least for now.
Remember when the topic "what if Nu refers to water" came up? Perhaps Water is the first element, the most important. Its a stretch, but considering it is primarily a curative element, it makes sense that it would be the element involved in the creation of the universe or the creation of life or something.
Just a thought.
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If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.
I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.
The only time where Lavos was really summoned was when Magus summoned him in 600 AD. Lavos didn't destroy the world in 600 AD after summoned, so that proves that Lavos does not destroy genetic material without a reason. Waking up cranky has nothing to do with it.
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If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.
I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.
The only time where Lavos was really summoned was when Magus summoned him in 600 AD. Lavos didn't destroy the world in 600 AD after summoned, so that proves that Lavos does not destroy genetic material without a reason. Waking up cranky has nothing to do with it.
The way I see it Lavos destroyed Zeal becuase they were sucking too much of its power. Like the Queen said they would become immortal once the ocean palace was complete. Not before when the Mammon machine was in Zeal palace. They were using Lavos's power then, but not enough of it. But once they activated the Machine in the Ocean Palace Lavos realized/decided that thier time of using it was up and it decimated the place.
As for when Magus summoned him, he teleported them away because it knew that if they all fought it together they had a chance of destroying it. So instead of instigating a fight he moved Magus back to 12,000 B.C. knowing fully that he could take him on by himself, back then he would have no other help. Sending the group to 65,000,000 B.C. was to hope that they would be killed in the crash. Lavos could not forsee the entity making the gate where it landed. Most likely the entity knew that they needed Magus's help in conquering Lavos, after assimilating Ayla into the group getting Magus was the last peice of the puzzle.
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But in original timeline Lavos killed Magus when he summoned it. Imho it was Lavos some kinda automatic self defense like V_Translanka said or Lavos was shoked that one man was aviable to summon him and probably seen his power so decided to destroy him or probably most logical version is that Magus immediately attacked Lavos, so Lavos was defending himself. About zeal i think that Lavos was angry that quen wanted to get much more power from him than he was wiling to give
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I don't think Lavos's attack on Zeal and killing Magus in the original timeline could be automated self defense like some suggest. If it was, ok, Lavos destroyed Zeal when they intruded on his personal space. But then, when Magus summoned him, that would also be intruding on Lavos's space, so why did Lavos only kill Magus, as opposed to destroying 600 AD? It must have been a conscience decision by Lavos, because if Lavos's attack in 12000 BC was automatic, then he would have done the same exact thing in 600 AD. Therefore, Lavos destroyed Zeal because they were a threat, and, in the original timeline, killed Magus. Because of the interference of Crono & Co. when Magus was summoning Lavos, the summoning spell went awry, randomly sending Crono & Co. to 65 million BC, and, either Magus used his magic to direct himself thru the impromtu portal to 12000 BC, or he just randomly ended up there.
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So maybe in original timeline Lavos thought that all zeal is potencial enemy to him and in 600AD he though that magus is potencial enemy, but not mystics, just magus
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Magus had no control over the portal that took them out of Magus's castle. He said something along the lines of "Don't wake up on me now". So that portal was either the handywork of Lavos or the entity, but definetely not Magus.
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I wasn't saying Magus controlled the portal, I'm just saying that Magus could have used his magic while in the portal to direct himself to 12000 BC, otherwise he would have ended up at 65000000 BC too. Since Magus was in the process of summoning Lavos when Crono & Co fight him, the spell most likely went wrong when they beat him. A spell of such magnitude that could summon Lavos across space and time would need a lot of concentration I'd think. It even says during the battle after fighting Magus for a bit, "Magus risks casting a spell!" The portal was a result of the Lavos summoning spell messing up, whether caused by Lavos waking up or otherwise.
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I'll go over a few of the newer things...
The Water=Nu Theory is kind of interesting, since, in CC, we see the Nu represented by the Beach Bum sprite. Food for thought anyways.
Also...Zeal summons Lavos after she's defeated on the Black Omen, where he then seems to absorb the Black Omen and then fights the party.
I don't think that Lavos was completely summoned at all in 600 when Magus uses his spell. We see no evidence at all that he was during or after (if you come back to Magus's Castle). Lavos simply opens the gate and flings Magus off in one direction and the party in another. The gate itself is enormous in magnitude. We never see anything like it in the game. The only two things we know can create gates are the Entity and Lavos (when he sends everyone every-which-way during the Ocean Palace scene in the original timeline). While it's possible that Magus could have used magic to 'direct' his way, he says during the scene on the Cape that it was a surprise to him to be sent to that era. Plus, we never see anyone capable of directing where a gate goes...Nor do we see Magus having any sort of control over them (heck, Schala's the one who seals the gate when he throws you out).
And speaking of the original timeline and Magus...We do not know concretely if Magus was killed in the original timeline during his summoning of Lavos. It's entirely possible that Lavos STILL used a portal to fling Magus off into who-knows-when.
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I forgot about Magus saying that(on the Cape)...
on Lavos being summoned in 600 AD and Magus in the original timeline...
Belthasar: Lavos disappeared briefly when he was summoned away by a mighty wizard who lived in Guardia, in the year 600.
Lavos was successfully summoned by Magus in the original timeline, because Belthasar pretty much knows everything. The word 'disappeared' does not leave room for the possibility of a partially summoned Lavos.
something else I noticed...
In Enhasa, Janus tells the party that the black wind is blowing, and one of them will die soon.(couldn't find the exact quote)
Then in Zeal before Crono & Co get captured:
Janus: The black wind...
Schala: You feel it too?
Both Janus and Schala can sense this black wind, which seems to mean that someone's gonna die. Crono dies, so Janus's prediction about the party came true. Also, it can be said that Zeal dies(the place, not the queen).
When you go to fight Magus in his castle...
Magus: Ah... The Masamune!!! I bet you're just dying to use it! The black wind begins to blow... Okay... give me your best shot... If you're prepared for the void!
Since Magus is a no-nonsense-let's-get-this-over-with kinda guy, I doubt he was mentioning the black wind in an effort to be ominous, I think he really did feel the black wind. Now, here's where it gets interesting...
At the Ocean Palace, when the Prophet reveals himself to be Magus...
Magus: I’ve been waiting for you, Lavos. I swore long ago... that I'd destroy you! No matter what the price! It is time to fulfill that vow. Feel my wrath, Lavos!!
Magus attacks Lavos...
Magus: Wh, what...? It doesn't work?! Aughhh!!
Magus was shocked to discover that he could not hurt Lavos. After Crono dies...
Magus: I can't... beat him. Lavos...!
Magus summoned Lavos with the full intention of defeating Lavos, not knowing that he could not take Lavos on by himself. From what Belthasar said, we know that Magus successfully summoned Lavos in the original timeline, and Magus had no idea that he could not hurt Lavos. Magus felt the black wind in the changed timeline, and the black wind has a pretty good track record. Since the interference of Crono & Co at the castle were not part of the original timeline, and since Magus cannot hurt Lavos at that point, the black wind Magus felt must have been for himself. Therefore, after successfully summoning Lavos, Magus was killed by Lavos in the original timeline.
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Magus summoned Lavos with the full intention of defeating Lavos, not knowing that he could not take Lavos on by himself. From what Belthasar said, we know that Magus successfully summoned Lavos in the original timeline, and Magus had no idea that he could not hurt Lavos. Magus felt the black wind in the changed timeline, and the black wind has a pretty good track record. Since the interference of Crono & Co at the castle were not part of the original timeline, and since Magus cannot hurt Lavos at that point, the black wind Magus felt must have been for himself. Therefore, after successfully summoning Lavos, Magus was killed by Lavos in the original timeline.
I don't know about that reasoning, We don't know if Magus felt the black wind in the Lavos Timeline. There is nothing in the game to portray that. But you do bring up a good point. I forget about him feeling the black wind, that pretty much garuntee's that the gate was the entities doing and not Lavos. The wind was most likely for everyone, Lavos was probably going to fustigate them once he teleported in. By the entity said no sir and teleported everyone away. I guess it sent the group to 65,000,000 B.C. first so it could witness Lavos's arrival on earth. Then after the landing it sent the to 12,000 so they could get the necessary tools and personel to defeat Lavos. So scratch the whole Lavos making that gate theory.
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Okay, even if I buy into what Belthasar's saying about Lavos being summoned...That's only about the original, Lavos, timeline. At the very least, when Crono & Co show up, they throw that out the window. The summoning is disrupted and Lavos obviously doesn't appear. In Lavos's place? A giant gate. And also, I don't think the Black Wind is so focused. It isn't something that's just about someone about to die. When he feels it in his castle, who dies there? Himself? Not really...But he is defeated. I don't think that Black Wind=Death. I believe it's more a forwarning of some kind, depending on who senses it and how they sense it.
In Chrono Cross, a 'wind' is mentioned to be around Serge...Damn if I don't have the quote though...It's from the old woman Direa? Well, it's around Serge because he's supposed to be dead in that timeline, but he's not. I don't think there's enough on the Black Wind to be so concretely defined...Or at least, not from just what you're saying of it.
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I think it's interesting that Magus can't hurt Lavos right then, but he can later. What changed? Perhaps it was the fact that he had Queen Zeal to leech off of, but you can beat Lavos without destroying the Omen. If, on the other hand, it is true that Lavos was getting pissed off that the Zealians were leeching his power, then he shouldn't have been as strong as normal, and you should have been able to hurt him easily. Either way, something's wrong here.
Perhaps this Black Wind is involved?
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Was magus aviable to kill Lavos with one attack later? imho he was hurting Lavos back then but not seriously. Well if you hit oponent and he doesn`t fall, isn`t bleading and similar things then you think that you wasn`t aviable to hurt him.
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Okay, even if I buy into what Belthasar's saying about Lavos being summoned...That's only about the original, Lavos, timeline. At the very least, when Crono & Co show up, they throw that out the window. The summoning is disrupted and Lavos obviously doesn't appear. In Lavos's place? A giant gate. And also, I don't think the Black Wind is so focused. It isn't something that's just about someone about to die. When he feels it in his castle, who dies there? Himself? Not really...But he is defeated. I don't think that Black Wind=Death. I believe it's more a forwarning of some kind, depending on who senses it and how they sense it.
In Chrono Cross, a 'wind' is mentioned to be around Serge...Damn if I don't have the quote though...It's from the old woman Direa? Well, it's around Serge because he's supposed to be dead in that timeline, but he's not. I don't think there's enough on the Black Wind to be so concretely defined...Or at least, not from just what you're saying of it.
I was unaware of the wind being mentioned in CC. But I have yet to finish the game, so I can't help you with that quote. Okay, I can see how the wind isn't directly related to dying, but it does have to do with death in general. You can not deny that. And I am pretty sure that Lavos does show up at the castle, you can hear it's scream before you are teleported if I am not mistaken.
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The 'wind' mentioned in Chrono Cross is not necessarily the same as the Black Wind.
And about Magus attacking Lavos, he may have hurt Lavos superficially, but it's pretty obvious that at that point that Lavos can kill them with just one attack(Crono).
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The 'wind' mentioned in Chrono Cross is not necessarily the same as the Black Wind.
And about Magus attacking Lavos, he may have hurt Lavos superficially, but it's pretty obvious that at that point that Lavos can kill them with just one attack(Crono).
I'm sure that it hurt Lavos, but not to the extent that Magus wanted it to. I think he was expecting more of a extreme attack kind of thing.
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The 'wind' mentioned in Chrono Cross is not necessarily the same as the Black Wind.
And about Magus attacking Lavos, he may have hurt Lavos superficially, but it's pretty obvious that at that point that Lavos can kill them with just one attack(Crono).
I'm sure that it hurt Lavos, but not to the extent that Magus wanted it to. I think he was expecting more of a extreme attack kind of thing.
Yes, he probably thought that he would seriuosly wound Lavos with one or two spells.
And about wind, imho black wind = something terible might happen. And yes in Chrono Cross someone mentioned that strange wind surrounds Serge
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The 'wind' mentioned in Chrono Cross is not necessarily the same as the Black Wind.
And about Magus attacking Lavos, he may have hurt Lavos superficially, but it's pretty obvious that at that point that Lavos can kill them with just one attack(Crono).
I'm sure that it hurt Lavos, but not to the extent that Magus wanted it to. I think he was expecting more of a extreme attack kind of thing.
Yes, he probably thought that he would seriuosly wound Lavos with one or two spells.
And about wind, imho black wind = something terible might happen. And yes in Chrono Cross someone mentioned that strange wind surrounds Serge
I don't think the Black Wind and Serge's Wind are the same thing.
It makes sense that the Black Wind could be a 'might, but I would say it's more of a chance than 'might'. Like a sort of 'this bad thing has a 95% chance of happening'.
And Serge's Wind, well he's dead in the world where his 'strange wind' was sensed, so that could just be because he wasn't supposed to exist in Another World.(That was someone in Another World who mentioned it, right?)
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The fortune teller in termina I think mentioned the wind thing.
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The fortune teller in termina I think mentioned the wind thing.
NOW I remember. Yeah, since Serge was essentially dead in that world, he didn't have a future, so she(the fortune teller) couldn't read it.
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No, I wasn't talking about the fortune teller, I was talking about Direa...Damn myself for not bringing my thing of quotes with me! It sounds essentially like the Black Wind though, and it seems like a bit of a coincidence if it's not...Ah hell...I'll get to it sometime...
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But the Black Wind is only mentioned in CT when there's a really good chance of someone (or many someones, in the case of Zeal) dying. In CC, Serge is technically already dead in Another World.
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No, I wasn't talking about the fortune teller, I was talking about Direa...Damn myself for not bringing my thing of quotes with me! It sounds essentially like the Black Wind though, and it seems like a bit of a coincidence if it's not...Ah hell...I'll get to it sometime...
How far into the game is that part? I am right after defeating Miguel, and If it is coming up I'll look for the quote for you.
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No, I wasn't talking about the fortune teller, I was talking about Direa...Damn myself for not bringing my thing of quotes with me! It sounds essentially like the Black Wind though, and it seems like a bit of a coincidence if it's not...Ah hell...I'll get to it sometime...
How far into the game is that part? I am right after defeating Miguel, and If it is coming up I'll look for the quote for you.
Direa says it when you first meet her I think. So you might have already passed this event, I don't know.
But the Black Wind is only mentioned in CT when there's a really good chance of someone (or many someones, in the case of Zeal) dying. In CC, Serge is technically already dead in Another World.
The Black Wind blows because someone is gonna die, and Serge's wind blows because Serge died... The two winds seem really too close to be just a coincidence...
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Hmm? There is an odd wind that is whirling about. I have heard that such wind-bearers appear at times, but...
Ta-da! I brought my damn quotes with me this time! Yeah, it's pretty vague...But nothing in CT clearly states what the Black Wind is, does, or is for really...
And, just for kicks, here's an alternate translation from when Magus confronts Ozzie later on in Ozzie's own castle...
Do you hear that sound around you? It's the sound of the Black Wind...
Now, here's the changed version from the regular translation that uses "The Reaper" instead of the Black Wind...
Say, can you hear that? It's the sound of the Reaper...
I think the English translation implies that the Black Wind is a messanger of death, but the original really still sounds as if it's a possibility of death...Although, in the end, Ozzie doesn't die...
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We don't know whether Ozzie dies at his own castle...he may have already had a kid.
Although he shows up at the Bend of Time in CC, but I don't think that proves he's still alive, since that place is screwy anyway.
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Yeah, I wasn't taking into account their CC appearance, but an NPC in CT, after you fight Ozzie says that they all got away or some crap even after you beat them...Plus, you know where the hole he drops down goes to (after having dropped down it yourself), and there's no sign that he's there afterwards...