Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Crisis54 on January 22, 2005, 12:37:26 am
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sorry, im extremely new to the whole chrono universe. also new to this forum, but i love all the info here. its amazing.
anyways, i heard somewhere that miguel could be actually crono. i looked at miguel and crono and i can see simalarities between the two. is there any proof at all that they are the same person? any proof that they aren't? i'm really interested in this.
thanks guys.
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Taken from a section of my article:
There is a theory that Miguel is actually Crono.
Vaeran wrote: "I actually posted this back before the crash (or the crash before that), but I like to trot this theory out every now and then and see what people think of it. Back when I played the game, this idea seemed abundantly clear to me, but then talking to other people I found I was the only one left with this impression. Specifically, that Miguel is actually Crono.
There's no evidence in the game to prove this, but there's nothing to disprove it either, and a lot of circumstantial evidence points towards it being right. For example:
- Age. Crono was about 16 years old in 1000 A.D., and Chrono Cross takes place in 1020. Miguel is clearly middle-aged, so that works out.
- Appearance. Miguel has red hair and lots of it, though he wears it in a much tamer style than Crono did.
- Game mechanics. Miguel is ludicrously powerful, far more than a simple islander should be. In addition, he's an innate White. Crono could have been a Yellow in CC's system for all his lightning attacks, but his most famous technique was Luminaire, which in CC is a White element.
- Family. Leena looks a lot like what you'd expect Marle and Crono's daughter to; she's basically Marle with Crono's coloring. In addition, her name is very similar to Leene, a name from Marle's family. It's true that we see her "grandmother" and "sister" in Arni village, but they don't look a thing like her. After Miguel never returned from his voyage with Wazuki, an old woman in the village probably took Leena in as her own, as she no longer had any family.
The scene in which you meet Miguel is also very telling. He seems to know a whole hell of a lot about the whole Lavos situation, for one thing. And if you watch carefully, the little Crono shade is always standing nearest him, and is standing directly over (behind) Miguel as he dies.
But doesn't the Crono "ghost" mean that Crono's already dead, and thus isn't Miguel? No; I don't believe the three childlike apparitions are Crono, Marle and Lucca at all. While we're not clear on Marle's fate, we know Lucca at least lived to her early 20s; that's when Lynx kidnaps her (and presumably kills her when she refuses to help). If she died at that age, her ghost wouldn't appear as a little child; ditto for the other two.
(So if they're not ghosts, what are they? I think they're projections of the Frozen Flame, which is the essence of Lavos. The game assumes that your final party to fight Lavos in CT was Crono, Marle and Lucca, and that they would therefore be the last thing it saw. While they're not actually children, that's what Lavos saw them as; weak little human children who shouldn't have been a threat.)
Anyway, so what the hell would Crono be doing all the way down in the El Nido archipelago, anyway? Remember that Porre invaded and conquered Guardia. Like I said, we don't know exactly what happened to Marle, but it's pretty easy to guess: as then-queen of Guardia, she was either killed, taken prisoner, or is in hiding somewhere, possibly organizing a rebellion. Either way, not very pleasant. Knowing that things are going to get bad real soon, she entreats Crono to escape with their child. He gets as far away from Guardia as possible with Leena, settling down to a quiet life in a fishing village and changing his name.
So, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Miguel could just be some simple fisherman whose life ended up sucking beyond all reason. Or he could be the hero from the previous game, imprisoned in an dead future that he helped create, and forced to fight against the only people capable of preventing it. I think it adds an extra level of emotion to think he's the latter."
Further evidence that Crono may be alive:
ZeaLitY wrote: "I wish to point out that if Lucca's burning is correctly dated at 1015 A.D., Crono may very well be alive. A child's drawing of him hangs in the back passage way. Considering the age of children, it couldn't have been done before the fall of Guardia."
Ybrik Metaknight wrote: "Wow...good point. In fact, regardless of whether the date is correct, Crono would almost have to be alive. Consider the following: Kid, in 1020, is 16. She is able to talk to Serge coherently enough that she would have to be 6 or 7 at the youngest during the fire. Simple math dictates that the fire would have to have occured in or after 1010. The Fall of Guardia was in 1005.
Unless those were drawn in 1005, before the Fall of Guardia and Lucca simply left them up for memory, which is unlikely, given the fact that they did not appear to be framed or in any way protected from the elements, and even the inside of a house is not away from the elements enough to preserve something so unprotected for five years or longer. (Yay for runon sentences...as I write this I'm in the newsroom for TCU's newspaper...ironic...)
Also, since Robo and Ayla (and maybe Frog too? Can't quite remember) are depicted in the pictures as well, perhaps they continued to travel through time after the events of CT. Interesting how much a closer look at such a small detail can reveal...
I think that Guardia XXXIII might have still been king (unless, of course, he died because the Guardia line seems to have short life spans), and so Crono and Marle very well could have been spared. Indeed, they may not have even been in the area, or the era, at the time of the fall.
Of course, if they were in the castle, they most likely would have been executed, whether they were the rulers or not...see the Bolshevik Revolution (and the mystery of Anastasia) for a historical parallel."
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So, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Miguel could just be some simple fisherman whose life ended up sucking beyond all reason. Or he could be the hero from the previous game, imprisoned in an dead future that he helped create, and forced to fight against the only people capable of preventing it. I think it adds an extra level of emotion to think he's the latter."
Judging by Miguel's cloths, I am sure that he is not from Elnido.
Just compare Wazuki and the Arn Villagers cloths with miguel ones.
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So, maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Miguel could just be some simple fisherman whose life ended up sucking beyond all reason. Or he could be the hero from the previous game, imprisoned in an dead future that he helped create, and forced to fight against the only people capable of preventing it. I think it adds an extra level of emotion to think he's the latter."
Judging by Miguel's cloths, I am sure that he is not from Elnido.
Just compare Wazuki and the Arn Villagers cloths with miguel ones.
In this case, perhaps Miguel got those cloths in Chronopolis or the Dead Sea. I know that we see him with the same cloths in the flashback, but this could be just because the game makers didn't bother making a different looking Miguel. They also used the same Radius and Garai textures for the Masamune flashbacks, even though Radius was supposed to be about fifteen years younger and Garai couldn't have been that tall yet (ghosts are big, like Cyrus...).
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In Miguel case the Cloths are correct because Fate conserve him as such since that day.
If you look well Miguel look like tourist or someone from a expedition.
mybe his a archeologist who came to Elnido to study the dragonians artifact and settled in Arni. But it's is just another fanfic idea.
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the though never crossed my mind when I got to that part of CC. All I could think was "Woah, this guy is tough for a fisherman!" Its been so long, I forgot this, but what weapon did he use agianst you? A Katana? And my final point is that Luminare was a lightning (or yellow) attack in CT, and Crono would have been yellow in CC's system. I'm not quiet sure why they made Luminare white, but it sure didn't remind me of the old one.
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If Crono was in CC then his color would've been white. In CT, his innate was Heaven--it was changed to Lightning when the game came to the US.
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Wouldn't Miguel have completely annihilatted you if he was actually Crono? Crono was able to hurt Lavos, I doubt he could be beaten by your party at the time, even if he hadn't fought in years. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't Miguel seem to like the dead sea? I could be wrong on that, my memory of that scene is fuzzy.
Someone please find a way to poke a hole in what I have said, because I really like the idea of Miguel being Crono.
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the though never crossed my mind when I got to that part of CC. All I could think was "Woah, this guy is tough for a fisherman!" Its been so long, I forgot this, but what weapon did he use agianst you?
He doesn't have any physical weapon as far as I remember, but he uses the Holy Dragon Sword (a kind of elemental "light-saber") in his special attack. That always surprised me, the keeper of FATE's Dead Sea using a Holy Dragon stuff.
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He was in Fate`s control. Well because FATE controled all region she could done something with miguel DNA or something like that so he became very strong for fisherman
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look at Crono's magic. we got Lightning 1 and 2, and Luminare (described as a lightning attack), in various dual techs, crono calls down bolts of lightning... He would be yellow element.
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Well, Crono's element was originally "Heaven" in the Japanese version (lightning comes down from the heavens, light (Luminaire) is associated with heaven, and Life uses holy energy). If we look at CC, heaven is definitely white.
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Plus, the Elements in CC are really more about colors than physical phenomenas. For example, wind is involved both in Yellow and Green Elements, and lightning is involved in Yellow, Black and White Elements. They are either yellow ashy wind, green leafy wind, yellow-colored lightning, dark-elemental lightning (see Dario's techs), heavenly lightning etc.
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And if you want to get super specific, they're not even just about colors. They're more about the harmonies and sounds that each specific Element produces. Ta-da!
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If miguel is crono, why he changes names?
to escape from the Guardia? i dont picture crono escaping of a fight !
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its just people trying to tie CC to CT more... i dont give it weight for a second.
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Who knows.. If Crono is really Miguel, he could have taken the name from his Father who we never know if he even exists (thats supposing that his fathers name was Miguel)
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i dont picture crono escaping of a fight !
He already escaped some fights though : when he escaped from the Guardia prison & castle (he didn't want to kill humans), and when he refused to battle Magus at North Cape (he didn't want to kill him even though Magus' army had a war against Guardia).
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i dont picture crono escaping of a fight !
He already escaped some fights though : when he escaped from the Guardia prison & castle (he didn't want to kill humans), and when he refused to battle Magus at North Cape (he didn't want to kill him even though Magus' army had a war against Guardia).
Crono, Lucca and Marle ran because the entire Guardia Army was after them. Remember that Crono was not present at North Cape. Don't try to read so much from Crono's actions. Crono will kill humans and otherwise sentient combatants when necessary.
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This stems from a debate a long time ago. The Zealian guards of Dalton were humans, so it seems Crono has killed members of his species.
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i dont picture crono escaping of a fight !
He already escaped some fights though : when he escaped from the Guardia prison & castle (he didn't want to kill humans), and when he refused to battle Magus at North Cape (he didn't want to kill him even though Magus' army had a war against Guardia).
Crono, Lucca and Marle ran because the entire Guardia Army was after them. Remember that Crono was not present at North Cape. Don't try to read so much from Crono's actions. Crono will kill humans and otherwise sentient combatants when necessary.
Still, Crono isn't the holy honorable knight type. He's a generous person, is loyal to his friends and has a sense of duty, but he doesn't have a honor code that prohibits him from running away and doing what is necessary to do what he thinks is right. He will escape if the other probable happening is the death of his friends. He will not, however, escape alone, leaving his friends behind.
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yea, i dont see anything wrong with killing during a "war", in this regards.
there is no murder in war.
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i dont picture crono escaping of a fight !
He already escaped some fights though : when he escaped from the Guardia prison & castle (he didn't want to kill humans), and when he refused to battle Magus at North Cape (he didn't want to kill him even though Magus' army had a war against Guardia).
Crono, Lucca and Marle ran because the entire Guardia Army was after them. Remember that Crono was not present at North Cape. Don't try to read so much from Crono's actions. Crono will kill humans and otherwise sentient combatants when necessary.
Ah yeah Crono was dead during North Cape... I knew I had forgotten something >_<
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Inquiry
Might Miguel be a person from Chrono Trigger?
Theories
Crono
Vaeran
Miguel is Crono, based on a few factors.
*Age. Crono was about 16 years old in 1000 A.D., and Chrono Cross takes place in 1020. Miguel is clearly middle-aged, so that works out.
*Appearance. Miguel has red hair and lots of it, though he wears it in a much tamer style than Crono did. He does not wear tribal clothes like the others of El Nido.
*Game mechanics. Miguel is ludicrously powerful, far more than a simple islander should be. In addition, he's an innate White. Crono could have been a Yellow in CC's system for all his lightning attacks, but his most famous technique was Luminaire, which in CC is a White element.
*Family. Leena looks a lot like what you'd expect Marle and Crono's daughter to; she's basically Marle with Crono's coloring. In addition, her name is very similar to Leene, a name from Marle's family. It's true that we see her "grandmother" and "sister" in Arni village, but they don't look a thing like her. After Miguel never returned from his voyage with Wazuki, an old woman in the village probably took Leena in as her own, as she no longer had any family.
*The scene in which you meet Miguel is also very telling. He seems to know a whole hell of a lot about the whole Lavos situation, for one thing. And if you watch carefully, the little Crono shade is always standing nearest him, and is standing directly over (behind) Miguel as he dies.
So what would Crono be doing all the way down in the El Nido archipelago, anyway? Remember that Porre invaded and conquered Guardia. We don't know exactly what happened to Marle, but it's pretty easy to guess: as then-queen of Guardia, she was either killed, taken prisoner, or is in hiding somewhere, possibly organizing a rebellion. Either way, not very pleasant. Knowing that things are going to get bad real soon, she entreats Crono to escape with their child. He gets as far away from Guardia as possible with Leena, settling down to a quiet life in a fishing village and changing his name. The only problem with this theory is that Crono uses a katana, and was powerful enough to defeat Lavos (let alone a boy from Arni).
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I still don't think it's him. He wouldn't leave her.
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And how they look nothing alike. Miguel's power and knowledge could easily come from being in the Dead Sea all this time. Also, if you assume that Crono is Miguel, you make the Ghost Crono situation MUCH more difficult to explain than it needs to be.
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Yea, it would make no sense for there to be a Crono ghost if Crono himself is standing right there.
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And I totally doubt that FATE would be able to stop Miguel and keep him prisoner all these years if Miguel frickin' killed LAVOS. Unless you really believe that FATE is stronger than Lavos, and if so, you should by all means be banned from this forum.
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And I totally doubt that FATE would be able to stop Miguel and keep him prisoner all these years if Miguel frickin' killed LAVOS. Unless you really believe that FATE is stronger than Lavos, and if so, you should by all means be banned from this forum.
Just because Crono beat Lavos does not mean that he is as strong. Lucca's death validates that.
Do not forget - a battle is not always won just by strength alone. Cunning could have had a factor in it, and the literal sence of as Gaspar said - Them being embeded with the hopes and energy that powered them up (makes me think of the DBZ Spirit Bomb).
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Crono has been killed by Lavos once already...
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I don`t really think that Crono`s luminaire, lvl99, all ** stats or his rainbow would help him much in getting out of the dead sea, if he ever went there... :roll:
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And I can see Crono(Miguel) sacrificing himself to save his son (Serge) He sacrificed himself before to save his friends.
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Miguel isn't Serge's father -_- Wazuki is.
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Seriously now, this discussion is becoming weird...
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Says the guy who tried to claim Schala was Crono's father.
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Simply put why would Crono not use his magic. Also since when did Crono talk? I mean in long long monologues. Leena is 16 during CC meaning she was born in 1004, 1 year before the fall of Guardia. That means Miguel was with her mother during 1003 or early 1004. Besides I doubt Crono would goto el nido to cheat on Marle.
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Zaper... Just no, we don't need to argue about your ideas about Crono's supposed death here...
The idea that Crono is Miguel is crazy. They have simalarities, so what? What the hell happend to his swordsmen ship? Why would he use a fishing pole to nearly beat Serge to death rather than a Sword? Where is his magic? I'll pass on this theory, because its nearly as crazy as "Janus=Serge".
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Zaper... Just no, we don't need to argue about your ideas about Crono's supposed death here...
The idea that Crono is Miguel is crazy. They have simalarities, so what? What the hell happend to his swordsmen ship? Why would he use a fishing pole to nearly beat Serge to death rather than a Sword? Where is his magic? I'll pass on this theory, because its nearly as crazy as "Janus=Serge".
Haven't said anything about his death.
If you want me to, then fine.
Masato Kato already stated that Marle and Crono were involved in some "accident", which sounds pretty malicious to me.
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Zaper... Just no, we don't need to argue about your ideas about Crono's supposed death here...
The idea that Crono is Miguel is crazy. They have simalarities, so what? What the hell happend to his swordsmen ship? Why would he use a fishing pole to nearly beat Serge to death rather than a Sword? Where is his magic? I'll pass on this theory, because its nearly as crazy as "Janus=Serge".
Haven't said anything about his death.
If you want me to, then fine.
Masato Kato already stated that Marle and Crono were involved in some "accident", which sounds pretty malicious to me.
Not "accident", he said "incident". Sometimes (more than others), I wish that Chrono Break would come out to answer our questions on this.
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Why SHOULD Crono be involved in this whole thing? I mean, he's so obviously in Zenan (or was) that it's stupid to think otherwise.
Want proof? Lucca's Orphanege, 1015 AD. You can see a drawing of Crono and Marle there. Now, those kids are no older than 12 years. So, to sum it up:
1. The drawing hints that Crono and Marle remained alive, as the Kids coulden't remember someone they met so long ago, they would be too young. This could mean they're either in hiding and planning a rebellion of sorts, either Guardia is still somewhat soverign.
2. Crono COULD NOT BE MIGUEL, because he had to have stayed in the Dead Sea for ten years at least, and escort Wazuki and Serge to the Sea of Eden. Unless Crono can use some sort of astral projection power ( :roll: ), there is NO WAY HE COULD BE MIGUEL.
Besides, Crono is so powerful he could simply crush Serge in battle when Serge was at his current level of strength. Even with Holy Dragon Sword, Miguel clearly failed to kill Serge.
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Besides, Crono is so powerful he could simply crush Serge in battle when Serge was at his current level of strength. Even with Holy Dragon Sword, Miguel clearly failed to kill Serge.
Miguel is failed because it's plotwise. He has to be defeated. Same with Crono and Lavos. Lavos had to be defeated for the story to finish. Otherwise seeing from all the other evidence, Crono should have died too, but the game makers wanted him to win, so he did. No character is ever godlike, game makers don't do that.
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Zaper, Crono and co were appearently able to kill Lavos. Thats why they killed him. Serge was able to defeat Miguel. Thats why they defeated him. If Serge was able to defeat Miguel, and Miguel=Crono, then Serge defeated someone who was able to defeat Lavos. And we know Serge isn't that powerful. Were not saying Crono is a god-like entity, were saying hes extremely powerful, and we got in game evidence to support it.
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Zaper, Crono and co were appearently able to kill Lavos. Thats why they killed him. Serge was able to defeat Miguel. Thats why they defeated him. If Serge was able to defeat Miguel, and Miguel=Crono, then Serge defeated someone who was able to defeat Lavos. And we know Serge isn't that powerful. Were not saying Crono is a god-like entity, were saying hes extremely powerful, and we got in game evidence to support it.
So, Lynx overpowered Lucca, later killed her (most likely), and Serge and co defeated the Time Devourer..
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Wake up, Zaper, saying 'It's supposed to happan in the plot' ain't gonna help, because it's not actually PROOF. Miguel CAN kill Serge if you're not careful enough and Lavos can kill Crono and co if they're not cautious enough. We can guess the world will still go on.
Now, Lynx could overpower Lucca because he's got power from FATE to backup-With a power like Forever Zero and a partner like Harle, the two of them could easily overpower Lucca. Serge can kill the Time Devourer (And note it being a very hard boss, unless you've finished the game a second time), but then again the Time Devourer isn't matured. You can't put the unmatured (and possibly incomplete) Time Devourer in the same level as Lavos- Lavos had millions of years to absorb DNA and power AND mature. The Time Devourer had, in the most, 13000 years, more than a houndred time less than Lavos, and it was umature.
Put things in perspective of their power-Miguel, for all his might, failed to beat Serge and co, just as Lucca failed to beat Lynx and Harle, and just as Lavos failed to beat Crono and co because they were OUTPOWERED AND OUTMATCHED, and not because the plot demands it.
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Also, according "to the plot" Serge isn't supposed to be able to defeat the Time Devourer anyway, he's supposed to cast some song of life with the Chrono Cross...
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Zaper, Crono and co were appearently able to kill Lavos. Thats why they killed him. Serge was able to defeat Miguel. Thats why they defeated him. If Serge was able to defeat Miguel, and Miguel=Crono, then Serge defeated someone who was able to defeat Lavos. And we know Serge isn't that powerful. Were not saying Crono is a god-like entity, were saying hes extremely powerful, and we got in game evidence to support it.
So, Lynx overpowered Lucca, later killed her (most likely), and Serge and co defeated the Time Devourer..
Lynx vs. Lucca:
-Lynx's attack was a suprise attack.
-Lucca's orphanage was on fire, thus nullifing Lucca's Fire magic (would otherwise make the fire worse).
-Since Lucca was taken by suprise, she didn't have her armor, nor her gun (which is her only means of non-magic fighting).
-Lucca must have been preoccupied with the safety of the orphans running around.
These conditions lead to a being of lesser power kidnapping one of greater power.
And the TD was still developing, and was asleep. Otherwise, it would have been Game Over.
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Zaper, Crono and co were appearently able to kill Lavos. Thats why they killed him. Serge was able to defeat Miguel. Thats why they defeated him. If Serge was able to defeat Miguel, and Miguel=Crono, then Serge defeated someone who was able to defeat Lavos. And we know Serge isn't that powerful. Were not saying Crono is a god-like entity, were saying hes extremely powerful, and we got in game evidence to support it.
So, Lynx overpowered Lucca, later killed her (most likely), and Serge and co defeated the Time Devourer..
Lynx vs. Lucca:
-Lynx's attack was a suprise attack.
-Lucca's orphanage was on fire, thus nullifing Lucca's Fire magic (would otherwise make the fire worse).
-Since Lucca was taken by suprise, she didn't have her armor, nor her gun (which is her only means of non-magic fighting).
-Lucca must have been preoccupied with the safety of the orphans running around.
These conditions lead to a being of lesser power kidnapping one of greater power.
And the TD was still developing, and was asleep. Otherwise, it would have been Game Over.
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We don't know that the orphans were running around. For all we know, once the fire erupted, they went into those hiding spots, and Lucca went to get the ice gun but saw Lynx and the confrontation started.
Also, You don't have any proof that Lucca's magic would be nullified. That fire was most likely elemental. Lucca's is magical. Magical fire > Elemental Fire. And I don't remember the last time when Lucca's fire attacks ever burned down anything. Say - The Ocean Palace, Zeal, Etc..
And I'm pretty sure Lucca would have guns somewhere in the house.
As for the TD, it's pretty awake if it's fighting back. It hasn't matured into the devestating power that it can unleash. But nether the less, It's Lavos with the Dragon God's power and a bit of Schalas.
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- Lucca used fire magic to burn the hammers from the hands of Orges in the Denardes mountains. Thus it would not be smart for her to use her Fire magic.
- The orphans must have ran to get to their hiding spots. They probably spent time looking for places to hide.
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We don't know that the orphans were running around. For all we know, once the fire erupted, they went into those hiding spots, and Lucca went to get the ice gun but saw Lynx and the confrontation started.
Irrelavant.
Also, You don't have any proof that Lucca's magic would be nullified. That fire was most likely elemental. Lucca's is magical. Magical fire > Elemental Fire. And I don't remember the last time when Lucca's fire attacks ever burned down anything. Say - The Ocean Palace, Zeal, Etc..
And I'm pretty sure Lucca would have guns somewhere in the house.
Shes in a BURNING HOUSE. You make big fire there, the BURNING HOUSE gets more on fire. Thats common sense. And she probably had guns somewhere, but not on her. Thats why she lost.
As for the TD, it's pretty awake if it's fighting back. It hasn't matured into the devestating power that it can unleash. But nether the less, It's Lavos with the Dragon God's power and a bit of Schalas.
Its subconciously thrashing around in its sleep. You ever roll over at night, sleep walk, or anything like that? Anyway, its irrelavant as the TD wasn't fully matured.
Give up, Zaper, you have lost.
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We don't know that the orphans were running around. For all we know, once the fire erupted, they went into those hiding spots, and Lucca went to get the ice gun but saw Lynx and the confrontation started.
Irrelavant.
Also, You don't have any proof that Lucca's magic would be nullified. That fire was most likely elemental. Lucca's is magical. Magical fire > Elemental Fire. And I don't remember the last time when Lucca's fire attacks ever burned down anything. Say - The Ocean Palace, Zeal, Etc..
And I'm pretty sure Lucca would have guns somewhere in the house.
Shes in a BURNING HOUSE. You make big fire there, the BURNING HOUSE gets more on fire. Thats common sense. And she probably had guns somewhere, but not on her. Thats why she lost.
As for the TD, it's pretty awake if it's fighting back. It hasn't matured into the devestating power that it can unleash. But nether the less, It's Lavos with the Dragon God's power and a bit of Schalas.
Its subconciously thrashing around in its sleep. You ever roll over at night, sleep walk, or anything like that? Anyway, its irrelavant as the TD wasn't fully matured.
Give up, Zaper, you have lost.
It is not irrelevant. Your so arrogant, it's pathetic. You must have not be very popular in real life, really with that tone =.=
1) Don't bring up the orphans if you think it's not relevant. If the orphans ran around, and Lucca mysteriously went to Kid, then she was already fighting Lynx.
2) The fire may have been started by Lucca herself fighting Lynx, but it seems more like those monsters caused it.
3) Lucca being the genious that she would realise that ending the battle faster (as in using any method such as magic) would give her even more time to save the children if neccessary.
4) We don't know if it's subconsious or anything. We know that it's attempting to mature. Lavos is very awake, especially when it consciously pulled back Chronopolis to try and give itself another chance etc.
5) I already said, since her fire magic never affected the surrounding area ever before, it wouldn't affect the house since it's magical, not elemental.
6) Lucca does have hypnotec, do not forget and many other tricks up her sleave.
The fact that she was knocked out, her glasses thrown off etc. kind of shows that there was a struggle, and she lost. Even Kid remembers it. She's avenging her because Lucca lost and was later killed, and I'm not sure how Kid knows, unless Kid thinks Lucca died since she was beat up so bad anyway. And don't forget, if Lucca can resist an attack from Lavos by your logic, then she can resist his axe thingy stricking her.
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Zaper, okay? Don't take this to personal areas. If you keep this up, you'll lose more than just the discussion.
Now, agree with me that if your house is on fire, you ain't gonna go around throwing more torches. That'll just make the house EXPLODE, killing ANY hope of ANYONE inside the house to survive. Sure, she might kill Lynx and Harle, but who cares about that as far as Lucca's concerned, if she killed herself, Kid and all her orphans? Thus, NO FIRE MAGIC.
NO GUNS because she's hidden the guns, somewhere the little kiddies coulden't reach it, and seeing as how it's hidden and Lynx probably cornered her...
The kids won't be running around, but they would still be quiet a cause for concern. I want to see you try and contradict them hiding. Just try. That'll just prove you're so caught up in your ideas you're ignoring the game. Lucca knows her kids. She knew they'd be hiding but didn't know where. If she'd of shot a gun (If she could of gotten it) it would scare the kids even more, causing them to run around where Lynx can use them for A. meat shields and B. tools for blackmail.
Your magic\elemental theory is just a thoery, so imagine a situation where this theory doesn't effect.
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I've read your little online journal, Zaper. And you say that to me? HA!
1) Don't bring up the orphans if you think it's not relevant. If the orphans ran around, and Lucca mysteriously went to Kid, then she was already fighting Lynx.
Your point was that orphans may not have been running around. My point was that Lucca would have been conserned for them. If they were in the actual action of running is an irrelavant point.
2) The fire may have been started by Lucca herself fighting Lynx, but it seems more like those monsters caused it.
Good job Lucca! You burned down your own orphanage, and probably killed all your kids inside. Your smart.
3) Lucca being the genious that she would realise that ending the battle faster (as in using any method such as magic) would give her even more time to save the children if neccessary.
Lucca being the genious that she [was] would realize that using magic would make the fire much worse, and probably burn the wood so much that the house would colapse, and everyone would die.
4) We don't know if it's subconsious or anything. We know that it's attempting to mature. Lavos is very awake, especially when it consciously pulled back Chronopolis to try and give itself another chance etc.
Lavos != Time Devourer.
5) I already said, since her fire magic never affected the surrounding area ever before, it wouldn't affect the house since it's magical, not elemental.
Wood+Fire=Burning. Because, you know, her house wasn't made of wood or anything.
The fact that she was knocked out, her glasses thrown off etc. kind of shows that there was a struggle, and she lost. Even Kid remembers it. She's avenging her because Lucca lost and was later killed, and I'm not sure how Kid knows, unless Kid thinks Lucca died since she was beat up so bad anyway. And don't forget, if Lucca can resist an attack from Lavos by your logic, then she can resist his axe thingy stricking her.
Yes, struggle because Lucca couldn't user her magic, and didn't have her weapon or armor on her. Lynx himself is strong enough to smack someone who can't defend themselves around long enough to knock them out.
Give up Zaper, you have lost.
EDIT: Oh yeah, to disprove your "Magical Fire doesn't burn stuff" theory, I have some in-game evidence to prove it (I can hardly believe I have to argue this...). The Ogres on Denadaro Mts. They have wooden hammers. Use fire magic on them, and their hammers catch on fire, and burn away.
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Aslong as you still say Lucca is so strong etc etc, then you can't deny her defence capability. If she is as you say she is, eveni f Lynx hits her with his axe thing, she should come out unharmed from the impact >.>
Also, when I meant Magical Fire doesn't burn stuff, I meant it doesn't burn stuff without the will for it to be burned. Elemental Magic burns anything since it's the element of that. Lightning, Fire, Water and Shadow are the vital parts that hold the universe. If it's magical, it's channeled in to burn the thing. Did we ever see the ground be destroyed around Crono when he used Luminaire, or the ground to be squashed thanks to Frog's Frog Squash? Did the whole Black Omen get sucked into the black hole of Magus' if you used it there? Did Lucca's fire ever start a fire which she didn't want? NO! So even if the fire is there, it should only make her own spell that much greater to finish of Lynx and such. Lucca is a smart woman, and would know how to defend herself, maybe even throwing a chair or such.
And you don't think its weird that Lucca would be by herself in that room, and Kid comes in to later view the fight. If Lucca was really truely worried, she'd have tried to escape. Desperate times call for desperate measures, so she would have used her magic to her advantage. She did not, and whatever happened, Lynx was able to beat her. And even after that, the fact that Lynx later killed Lucca (probably in Chronopolis) would raise questions as to why she did not use her magic once inside there, since it was safer to use a fire spell and such.
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No one said it was Lynx who killed Lucca-FATE herself could of killed her. A strong enough shock could cook her alive.
Regardless of anything- Lucca was as powerful as stated, but was helpless due to worry for her kids. That sort of emotion, and Lynx's relative emotionless self, was what got Lucca killed, eventually.
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No one said it was Lynx who killed Lucca-FATE herself could of killed her. A strong enough shock could cook her alive.
Regardless of anything- Lucca was as powerful as stated, but was helpless due to worry for her kids. That sort of emotion, and Lynx's relative emotionless self, was what got Lucca killed, eventually.
If Lucca can get shocked and killed, but resist Lavos from your standpoint of view, then she should not have died. And as I already said, being in Chronopolis, she has the advantage of using magic now. Heck, if she was tied up, she could burn through rope or whatever.
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Cause you know, it's not like heroes ever sacrifice themselves for the people they care about. "Do whatever you want; just don't hurt the kids." Etc. And it's not like Lucca could've been KNOCKED OUT or something. Lucca is not a god. She is a human being with human flaws and weaknesses. Even if she defeated Lavos, she did it with all her friends behind her, had all her weapons, had a will to fight, and had nothing holding her back.
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Aslong as you still say Lucca is so strong etc etc, then you can't deny her defence capability. If she is as you say she is, eveni f Lynx hits her with his axe thing, she should come out unharmed from the impact >.>
No Armor+helplessness+Lynx being one of the more powerful beings on the planet=Lucca getting beat up.
Also, when I meant Magical Fire doesn't burn stuff, I meant it doesn't burn stuff without the will for it to be burned. Elemental Magic burns anything since it's the element of that. Lightning, Fire, Water and Shadow are the vital parts that hold the universe. If it's magical, it's channeled in to burn the thing. Did we ever see the ground be destroyed around Crono when he used Luminaire, or the ground to be squashed thanks to Frog's Frog Squash? Did the whole Black Omen get sucked into the black hole of Magus' if you used it there? Did Lucca's fire ever start a fire which she didn't want? NO! So even if the fire is there, it should only make her own spell that much greater to finish of Lynx and such. Lucca is a smart woman, and would know how to defend herself, maybe even throwing a chair or such.
Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look when you argue that Lucca's fire doesn't burn things because its MAGICAL?
And you don't think its weird that Lucca would be by herself in that room, and Kid comes in to later view the fight. If Lucca was really truely worried, she'd have tried to escape. Desperate times call for desperate measures, so she would have used her magic to her advantage. She did not, and whatever happened, Lynx was able to beat her. And even after that, the fact that Lynx later killed Lucca (probably in Chronopolis) would raise questions as to why she did not use her magic once inside there, since it was safer to use a fire spell and such.
I don't think I'm following you... Lucca was by herself. If she was worried, she would have tried to excape? Worried about her safety? Well, obviously, she cared enough about her children not to abandon her in a blaze. Or worried about her kids? I've been argueing THAT!
Do you think that after Lynx kidnapped Lucca, that he wouldn't tie her up, or something like that, to prevent her from using her magic?
If Lucca can get shocked and killed, but resist Lavos from your standpoint of view, then she should not have died. And as I already said, being in Chronopolis, she has the advantage of using magic now. Heck, if she was tied up, she could burn through rope or whatever.
Are you even listening to yourself anymore? Personally, I don't think Lucca alone could take Lavos. With the help of the others, yes. No one is argueing that the Time Travelers are immortal; you only think we are because you don't listen to reason. FATE is a powerful being. Lynx is a powerful being. As strong as the Time Travelers? No. Enough to give them a fight? Yes. Get out of that mentality where you think were arguing that the Time Traveler's are immortal.
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No Armor+helplessness+Lynx being one of the more powerful beings on the planet=Lucca getting beat up.
There is no helplessness. Lucca already knows that someone is after her, and she watches all her corners, as written in the Letter that she is expecting people to go after her. And sorry, i'm not the one who still thinks that just because Lucca killed Lavos - that it has to make Lucca = Lavos in strength.
Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look when you argue that Lucca's fire doesn't burn things because its MAGICAL?
If you were reading what I said, I said that magic fire needs a will. Just like in Harry Potter, Magical Fire is different to elemental fire, and though Magical Fire is more dangerous than elemental, it doesn't spread unless they will it that way.
I don't think I'm following you... Lucca was by herself. If she was worried, she would have tried to excape? Worried about her safety? Well, obviously, she cared enough about her children not to abandon her in a blaze. Or worried about her kids? I've been argueing THAT!
Do you think that after Lynx kidnapped Lucca, that he wouldn't tie her up, or something like that, to prevent her from using her magic?
I'm not saying that she isn't worried for the kids. She'd try to escape from Lynx to go and put out the fire. But she couldn't. And being smart and knowing that someone is after you, Lucca would have protected herself and finished the battle as fast as she could to go after the kids. She did not, and it seems very un Lucca-like to not be prepaired for things even when she told Kid in a letter that she was watching out.
Also, tieing up people has not been shown to cause magic to be nullified. If Crono was tied in a rope, he'd Luminaire through it. Lucca, as seen in the battle scenes starts flying whenever she wants a spell. It wouldn't matter if shes tied, she can still cast it as it doesn't seem like they do hand movements. All they do is either chant or release the energy. And Lynx wouldn't mouth up Lucca since he needs her to TALK.
Are you even listening to yourself anymore? Personally, I don't think Lucca alone could take Lavos. With the help of the others, yes. No one is argueing that the Time Travelers are immortal; you only think we are because you don't listen to reason. FATE is a powerful being. Lynx is a powerful being. As strong as the Time Travelers? No. Enough to give them a fight? Yes. Get out of that mentality where you think were arguing that the Time Traveler's are immortal.
No, from what a lot of people have said, everyone is thinking that Lucca was only defeated because she was surprised, but at the same time saying that since she beat Lavos, just like Crono, she should be as powerful. And the fact that everyone is saying that Crono could take out an army.
I'm saying that with the evidence that we see with Lucca's situation, Crono could not take on an army simply because of the thing that happened with Lavos.
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There is no helplessness. Lucca already knows that someone is after her, and she watches all her corners, as written in the Letter that she is expecting people to go after her. And sorry, i'm not the one who still thinks that just because Lucca killed Lavos - that it has to make Lucca = Lavos in strength.
I've already gone over how she was helpless, if you still don't understand, maybe you will learn some day. There is hope. I mean, it took you a year to understand TTI, hopefully it will take you less time to understand this.
If you were reading what I said, I said that magic fire needs a will. Just like in Harry Potter, Magical Fire is different to elemental fire, and though Magical Fire is more dangerous than elemental, it doesn't spread unless they will it that way.
Magic is the manipulation of elements, nothing more. Anything else is baseless theory used to support a crackpot theory.
I'm not saying that she isn't worried for the kids. She'd try to escape from Lynx to go and put out the fire. But she couldn't. And being smart and knowing that someone is after you, Lucca would have protected herself and finished the battle as fast as she could to go after the kids. She did not, and it seems very un Lucca-like to not be prepaired for things even when she told Kid in a letter that she was watching out.
I see you have this new idea in your head that Lucca became paranoid. No, Lucca feared that someone my take revenge on them. You know what? I fear that I might get into a wreck on the way to class tommorow. Does that make me paranoid, and be super-cautious, driving under the speed limit, etc etc? No. Its the same thing here. Lucca wasn't so paranoid that she would spend every moment looking under desks, checking behind curtains, looking for possible attackers. THATS un-Lucca like. And as said before, Lucca could not finish the battle, thats why she lost. I've already told you why. If you don't understand yet, thats your problem. Nearly everyone else does.
Also, tieing up people has not been shown to cause magic to be nullified. If Crono was tied in a rope, he'd Luminaire through it. Lucca, as seen in the battle scenes starts flying whenever she wants a spell. It wouldn't matter if shes tied, she can still cast it as it doesn't seem like they do hand movements. All they do is either chant or release the energy. And Lynx wouldn't mouth up Lucca since he needs her to TALK.
Tieing Lucca up was just an idea of how to prevent Lucca from doing magic. Lynx must have taken some measure to stop her from using it, as there is no way Lynx could combat that. Also, we don't know how magic is perfermed in CT. But thats a mute point. Also not that whenever Crono and co were imprisioned in CT (like on the Black Bird), they didn't use magic to free themselves.
No, from what a lot of people have said, everyone is thinking that Lucca was only defeated because she was surprised, but at the same time saying that since she beat Lavos, just like Crono, she should be as powerful. And the fact that everyone is saying that Crono could take out an army.
Your hopeless.
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Do you have any idea how stupid you make yourself look when you argue that Lucca's fire doesn't burn things because its MAGICAL?
If you were reading what I said, I said that magic fire needs a will. Just like in Harry Potter, Magical Fire is different to elemental fire, and though Magical Fire is more dangerous than elemental, it doesn't spread unless they will it that way.
The fire spells in CT don't burn the battlefield, because of the game mechanics. The field doesn't burn because the developers didn't make it able to. But if CT was an animé or a movie, the field would obviously burn. Fire + wood or whatever = burn. There's no such thing as "magical fire" or "elemental fire". In the Chrono world, Fire is a core component of the universe whether it's produced by magic or by a matchstick. You want proof? Lucca's Flame Toss. It's not a magic spell, yet it's still Fire and it appears to "not burn" the field due to gameplay mechanics.
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Hi, long time lurker, first time poster.
I agree with the poster above me who discounted the idea that magical fire is any different than normal fire. To add to what the person above me said, if you're going to use the fact that the scenery in CT never caught on fire as some sort of proof that magical fire is different than non-magical fire, then I can retort with the idea that maybe one of the water innate people put out the fires after battles before they could cause damage to the surrounding areas. Both are the results of flawed reasoning, and, quite frankly, add nothing to the discussion.
The idea that she was ready to fight because of her paranoid suspicions is also asinine. First, no matter how paranoid she was, she still had to sleep. If I remember correctly, the orphanage scene took place pretty late at night, suggesting it was at least at a time where the kids were asleep and she was probably too tired to fight at her best. Secondly, it was a surprise attack. Even if she was sure someone could be after her, there would be very little she could do. What, she'd patrol the orphanage every night, all night long? Unlikely. No matter what, she was vulnerable, particularly with all of the children in harm's way. The game makes this abundantly clear.
So, it comes down to her strength vs. his strength. I have no doubt that Lucca could've defeated Lynx if all things were equal. Things, however, were definitely not equal. Lucca was, despite her best efforts, caught by surprise. She also felt the need to ensure the orphans' safety to the best of her ability. Engaging in a full-out fight near the children, with gun and magic blazing would've been the last thing someone as intelligent as Lucca would've attempted. And that's what makes her disappearance (and, presumably, death) so tragic. She willingly, knowingly, sacrificed herself because of her own kindness. This is storytelling 101 and, again, the game makes this clear.
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So, it comes down to her strength vs. his strength. I have no doubt that Lucca could've defeated Lynx if all things were equal. Things, however, were definitely not equal. Lucca was, despite her best efforts, caught by surprise. She also felt the need to ensure the orphans' safety to the best of her ability. Engaging in a full-out fight near the children, with gun and magic blazing would've been the last thing someone as intelligent as Lucca would've attempted. And that's what makes her disappearance (and, presumably, death) so tragic. She willingly, knowingly, sacrificed herself because of her own kindness. This is storytelling 101 and, again, the game makes this clear.
Kinda like what Crono did in Trigger. See the simlarity Zaper?
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What about Harle, she was there, too. A 2on1 would mean even less chance for Lucca.
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Look up. Do you see that star? That's where this topic went. THE SUN. Let's try to stay on topic by more than a tiny strand, eh.
Anyways: 1) No matter how you look at it, Lucca was at a serious disadvantage. Ergo, the entire argument over Lucca being defeated is pointless.
2) Just for the sake of argument, let's assume that Miguel is Crono. Now, he's been in the Dead Sea for 10 years, and aged considerably. Crono would become noticably weaker through 10 years of little or no training. Even if he had been training in the Dead Sea, it certainly would be a little tougher to fight an actual battle, especially with no warm-up. The point is, Crono couldn't possibly be fighting at full capacity. He wouldn't be strong enough to totally decimate Serge.
3) Miguel not using a sword proves nothing. Why? Because there's no reason for him to have a sword in the first place.
Until Miguel actually says, "I'm actually Crono! What a twist!" I won't believe it, though.
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So, it comes down to her strength vs. his strength. I have no doubt that Lucca could've defeated Lynx if all things were equal. Things, however, were definitely not equal. Lucca was, despite her best efforts, caught by surprise. She also felt the need to ensure the orphans' safety to the best of her ability. Engaging in a full-out fight near the children, with gun and magic blazing would've been the last thing someone as intelligent as Lucca would've attempted. And that's what makes her disappearance (and, presumably, death) so tragic. She willingly, knowingly, sacrificed herself because of her own kindness. This is storytelling 101 and, again, the game makes this clear.
Kinda like what Crono did in Trigger. See the simlarity Zaper?
So basically, Lucca didn't bother resisting, so the kids stayed in their hiding spots and got burned alive whilst Lucca got taken out of there, and Kid was simply rescued by Magil or whomever.... Yup, great Sacrafice.
What about Harle, she was there, too. A 2on1 would mean even less chance for Lucca.
Harle probably just stood there and watched Lynx do it. It's kind of the fact since Kid did and does not go after Harle, but does go after Lynx since he was the one. Heck, maybe he even killed Lucca at the orphanage when she wouldn't tell him.
BTW, in RD, Lucca knew Lynx for a long time, so he finally came burnt it down and killed her there. She dies in both dimensions :O No Harle there either, probably not that many orphans and either way she still looses.
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So basically, Lucca didn't bother resisting, so the kids stayed in their hiding spots and got burned alive whilst Lucca got taken out of there, and Kid was simply rescued by Magil or whomever.... Yup, great Sacrafice.
I got an idea, lets try reading. I'm so nice, I'll help you. Here is what they were saying Lucca didn't do, and why; "She also felt the need to ensure the orphans' safety to the best of her ability. Engaging in a full-out fight near the children, with gun and magic blazing would've been the last thing someone as intelligent as Lucca would've attempted."
Harle probably just stood there and watched Lynx do it. It's kind of the fact since Kid did and does not go after Harle, but does go after Lynx since he was the one. Heck, maybe he even killed Lucca at the orphanage when she wouldn't tell him.
Lynx doesn't tell us he kidnapped Lucca. He just claims to have killed her. We learn that Lucca was kidnapped from the Ghost Children.
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I think there's something which hasn't been considered yet: Miguel's dominant arm. We know that Crono is left-handed.
Can someone check what hand Miguel uses when he draws his "holy dragon" sword? this may be a decisive factor.
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I wish it were in an FMV.
However I think my sister might have some save data near there...
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Want a pic? As you wish. Got enough saves in CC to get everything, so just ask.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Want a pic? As you wish. Got enough saves in CC to get everything, so just ask.
HE'S RIGHT-HANDED!! W00T CRONO IS LEFT-HANDED GAME OVER THE THEORY IS SHOT DOWN! Mwahaha, erm. It's as clear as mineral water now, Miguel can't be Crono, Miguel is not Crono, CyberSarkany just proved it (thanks!).
*victory fanfare*
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Want a pic? As you wish. Got enough saves in CC to get everything, so just ask.
HE'S RIGHT-HANDED!! W00T CRONO IS LEFT-HANDED GAME OVER THE THEORY IS SHOT DOWN! Mwahaha, erm. It's as clear as mineral water now, Miguel can't be Crono, Miguel is not Crono, CyberSarkany just proved it (thanks!).
*victory fanfare*
He also can't be as badass.
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HE'S RIGHT-HANDED!! W00T CRONO IS LEFT-HANDED GAME OVER THE THEORY IS SHOT DOWN!
W00t w00t wut wut!!! Eat it, Zaper.
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HE'S RIGHT-HANDED!! W00T CRONO IS LEFT-HANDED GAME OVER THE THEORY IS SHOT DOWN!
W00t w00t wut wut!!! Eat it, Zaper.
I don't care about Miguel, and neither do I think that he ever was Chrono. And I can't believe you're still flaming me on this half a year old thread.
By the way, if you can't remember half of it, I was saying that Chrono and co aren't omnipotent, they can die and if Miguel was Chrono, who cares, he can still die. Beating Lavos was one feat, but so was beating the TD. I think Daniel also believes with me that the TD, as the game already implies and logic would say so, is stronger than Lavos and everything in CT put together. Hello, you don't get weaker by absorbing the accumulation of all of the planets energy, hanging onto a very powerful mage and retaining your own past power.
Oh, and you just posted on another topic telling someone not to spam. Posts that add nothing to a discussion are regarded as spam aswell..
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I don't care about Miguel, and neither do I think that he ever was Chrono. And I can't believe you're still flaming me on this half a year old thread.
Yea, and it's funny to watch you squirm :D
By the way, if you can't remember half of it, I was saying that Chrono and co aren't omnipotent, they can die and if Miguel was Chrono, who cares, he can still die. Beating Lavos was one feat, but so was beating the TD. I think Daniel also believes with me that the TD, as the game already implies and logic would say so, is stronger than Lavos and everything in CT put together. Hello, you don't get weaker by absorbing the accumulation of all of the planets energy, hanging onto a very powerful mage and retaining your own past power.
Point = Missed.
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Aura, please just shut up spamming, or have your fun with whoever in Private Messages. Thanks.
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As if Miguel's dominant hand really means anything. Furthermore, it's highly likely that the artists would pay such close attention to hand dominance, considering some art discrepancies in the game, as was mentioned previously in the thread.
I don't think Miguel's Crono, but he does look similar, and it is an interesting theory. I would bet his character was influenced by Crono, sort of like Guile (perhaps Miguel was being proposed to be Crono, but then they scrapped the idea, or decided not to elaborate on it).
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As if Miguel's dominant hand really means anything. Furthermore, it's highly likely that the artists would pay such close attention to hand dominance, considering some art discrepancies in the game, as was mentioned previously in the thread.
I don't think Miguel's Crono, but he does look similar, and it is an interesting theory. I would bet his character was influenced by Crono, sort of like Guile (perhaps Miguel was being proposed to be Crono, but then they scrapped the idea, or decided not to elaborate on it).
Of course they payed close attention to hand dominance, this information even appears on the status menu for all the playable characters, along with their height and weight. Plus, in video-games, left-handedness is always a sign of badassness.
And don't forget that there is a depiction of Crono holding a weapon in CC: on a drawing in Lucca's orphanage. There, Crono is clearly shown to hold his katana in his left hand. Earlier in the game, Miguel is shown to hold his "holy dragon" sword in his right hand.
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It was mentioned earlier about possible laziness concerning the size of Garai's model and Radius' (though it looked like he had more hair to me). It could possibly something they overlooked.
But your post has pretty much convinced me otherwise.