Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: OverlordMikey on June 06, 2008, 01:11:24 am
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Remove your personal Lavos feelings first then read on.
I was thinking, perhaps our "friend" Lavos isn't all s/he seems. I mean so many children, Lavos may reproduce asexually, perhaps it is the last female of its species, it just a good mother. It needed to go somewhere to gather a lot of energy for the spawns. It dug it's way into our world. So it began. Lavos cared for it's children, but soon humans began messing with it and Lavos decide to destroy them. It used Queen Zeal to this end then finally was enraged and popped up from the ground and killed the pests who bothered it. Tired it returned but kept Zeal as a way of protecting it's self using the black omen. (Originally it didn't need this of course as it didn't have pesky time travelers bothering it and Zeal might not have gone down with the Palace. Of course it then destroys the world and let's it's baby's go to space to find there own way. "Fairwell mother wishes you well." Lavos dies....It's known the after a certain point A children leave the nest. The spawns you do fight are just trying to perserve there existence and/or just runts of sorts who didn't manage to get off the planet yet.
As the it merge with "-------" into the Time Devourer Lavos is full of hate....why? Because s/he was defeated and it's children's existence erased, possibly ending the species....I'd be pi**ed to!
Just saying that maybe Lavos' choices were a maternal/paternail instinct, the desire to keep the species going. and protect it's children*. Who knows what's in the universe! There could be creatures the eat Lavos' species for all we know....
*Before you say anything Lavos most likely didn't think of us as it's children rather or not it help make us what we are.
Just saying it's a diffrent way of looking at it. Sorta a what if...survival of a species fits in Crono Trigger and Cross.
You may now return back to your original personal issues with Lavos, thank you.
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Um, well, it's not a new standpoint on Lavos...In fact, you might want to check out the old Compendium article called The Ethics of Lavos (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/The_Ethics_of_Lavos.html)...You might want to check out the other article Lavos - Points of Interest (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Lavos_-_Points_of_Interest.html) as well...although there are apparently some issues with the theory of Lavos' PD...*shrugs*
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Looking at Lavos as a creature of animalistic instincts, that makes sense. I just read those theorems for the first time.]
Now for inner assessment.
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I suppose it's possible, but I'm going to pull the over-analysis card on this one. The creators never gave any indication that Lavos was anything but evil and parasitic. Occams razor suggest that if there's a simpler suggestion (that Lavos is evil), that's probably it.
However that's not to say it's impossible, I just don't think it's at all canon.
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I don't know if you can pull Occam's Razor on this kind of theory though...It's not like it's grasping at straws or anything...We never "really" talk to Lavos, so all of the theorized information we get that it's evil are secondhand from people it screws over. We're theorizing reaction/motivation there, really...and I don't see how one theory is any more or less simple than the other...
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It is definitely open to interpretation. I have the feeling that he's supposed to be evil, but I doubt the developers thought this far. Or perhaps they did? Maybe they wanted it to be open-ended. A lot of the things in the Chrono series are. (Though some may be due to the developers overlooking certain things, it's still open-ended...) I like the idea that Lavos is a "varelse", that he's on a completely different plane of thought. We are like squares trying to perceive the depth of a cube. His thought process is so different than ours, so that's why we never hear him talk.
Curiously, we never hear the planet (the Entity; I like calling her Gaia) "speak" either. I have the feeling that Lavos and the planet are on the same plane of thought. (a.k.a. tons of times higher than ours. :p) This leads me to support the idea that Lavos is another "Entity" that has "gone bad", as someone suggested. It now only wishes to be a parasite that consumes the DNA of all planets, and lay them to ruins. It would explain why it's so powerful, and how the planet cannot fight it. She probably tried, but it was stronger.
Or something. I have no clue. Since Lavos is varelse, and we cannot communicate with it, we cannot see its higher motives. It's an interesting theory that Overlord proposed, but Lavos is definitely sentient, and I do feel that it is consciously making a choice to hurt the planet, a being I feel is probably on the same plane of sentience as Lavos. But, like I said, we can't communicate with him, so it's all open to interpretation.
My standing is that Lavos is evil, simple as that. But that's not to say there are other plausible theories floating around there.
P.S. Yeah, Occam's Razor can't really help us on this one, so that sucks. :( A word from the developers would be helpful, but I think that it's quite possible that it's meant to be open-ended, so they couldn't help in that case. But...
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It is rather unrealistic that someone or something has the intention of being evil or doing evil things and so I think Lavos is just as Mikey suggests going by it's own usual ways in order to keep it's species alive. It just so happens that one of the planets Lavos has landed onhas beings on it already and so instantly it is judged as being evil for eating something else on the food chain. It's like saying a cheetah is pure evil for attacking a gazelle and we need to sick a bunch of warriors on the Cheetah. That's how Lavos is judged, except by Zeal and Dalton whom just see Lavos for his aura of raw power. Which also makes me believe just as Draggy in CC at first believes the team that hatches him to be his parents, perhaps when Lavos first arose back in 12000 BC it assumed Queen Zeal to be it's mother which would explain why it followed all of her commands. Which in a way would just make Lavos a simple animal following the food chain, just trying to survive.
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Huh? No, Lavos controlled Zeal, not vice-versa. (Which is why I think he's consciously being evil... Try reading the "Lavos and Duality" thread, (It's something along those lines, I can't remember the exact title) it may shed some light) But still, like I said, there are a lot of theories going around. If Lavos is sentient, though, his morality is put into question.
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I just got through that whole bit of Zeal and Lavos at the ocean palace and noticed that sharp spiny attack that it has where it launches those whirlwind looking things. I'm thinking when Lavos fires off all those blasts, which can also be seen it rises, that's Lavos firing off it's children or the Lavos Spawns. Perhaps it was pregnant and as most animals do while pregnant, travel long distances, and hide from their enemies. So Lavos burrowed deep into the earth after flying through space and when it was ready to birth it's children, it rose. Zeal and Magus summoning it as well was just unexpected awakening, humans waking it up. Why else is it that even after Lavos rises, it doesn't go on with destroying the planet, it just stops and there are so many Lavos Spawn on Death Peak?
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I just got through that whole bit of Zeal and Lavos at the ocean palace and noticed that sharp spiny attack that it has where it launches those whirlwind looking things. I'm thinking when Lavos fires off all those blasts, which can also be seen it rises, that's Lavos firing off it's children or the Lavos Spawns. Perhaps it was pregnant and as most animals do while pregnant, travel long distances, and hide from their enemies. So Lavos burrowed deep into the earth after flying through space and when it was ready to birth it's children, it rose. Zeal and Magus summoning it as well was just unexpected awakening, humans waking it up. Why else is it that even after Lavos rises, it doesn't go on with destroying the planet, it just stops and there are so many Lavos Spawn on Death Peak?
I like to think that Lavos is intellegent, but our feelings never really came into our thoughts (it did grant Queen Zeal a sorta imortallity apon it's final awakening as taht was their deal, If she/he were evil then she/he would have just got rid of the Black omen with the rest of the planet).
I think the destruction of 1999AD was mearly something that happens as Lavos gives birth....the Planets energy is something needed inorder to essure the children are born healthy (Picture an egg type thing). Lavos gathers DNA inorder to ensure that the children become better the Lavos was (as bearing children without a mate doesn't allow for much genetic change) Lavos Spawn are just baby Lavos who didn't make it into outer space off the bat, and will attempt to launch later. Death Peak is wear lves rose from..then died after having children! (Some insects and aracnids die after give birth for a varitey of reasons....at least from what I saw on TV once...I'm not an expert) An Lavos has no real Grudge with humans! Zeal noticed Lavos as a power source, they used it...so it used them back! Magus would have died if not for your characters! In the end the real threat was Lavos would give birth in 1999AD and thus in the process kill the human race. (The Planet was just remembering what happend, it would have recovered, the pain was just so great it was like dieing!) Glad someone pretty much agrees
Huh? No, Lavos controlled Zeal, not vice-versa. (Which is why I think he's consciously being evil... Try reading the "Lavos and Duality" thread, (It's something along those lines, I can't remember the exact title) it may shed some light) But still, like I said, there are a lot of theories going around. If Lavos is sentient, though, his morality is put into question.
Also brought up, if Lavos is sentient doesn't mean he thinks like us! Lavos mearly attacks when attacked untill 1999AD. In our opinion EVIL in her/his opinion...annoying but interetsing flys! Chrono got in his way as well.. Lavos never used anyone out of pure amusment or something.
I mean Magus does the same thing as Lavos in taht way and everyone justifies him.
Magus- Revenge
Lavos- The Children
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Lavos has better justification!
Infact Chrono and group has nice justification to (future of humanity) but there justification isn't what this is about.
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I like to think that Lavos is intellegent, but our feelings never really came into our thoughts (it did grant Queen Zeal a sorta imortallity apon it's final awakening as taht was their deal, If she/he were evil then she/he would have just got rid of the Black omen with the rest of the planet).
I think the destruction of 1999AD was mearly something that happens as Lavos gives birth....the Planets energy is something needed inorder to essure the children are born healthy (Picture an egg type thing). Lavos gathers DNA inorder to ensure that the children become better the Lavos was (as bearing children without a mate doesn't allow for much genetic change) Lavos Spawn are just baby Lavos who didn't make it into outer space off the bat, and will attempt to launch later. Death Peak is wear lves rose from..then died after having children! (Some insects and aracnids die after give birth for a varitey of reasons....at least from what I saw on TV once...I'm not an expert) An Lavos has no real Grudge with humans! Zeal noticed Lavos as a power source, they used it...so it used them back! Magus would have died if not for your characters! In the end the real threat was Lavos would give birth in 1999AD and thus in the process kill the human race. (The Planet was just remembering what happend, it would have recovered, the pain was just so great it was like dieing!) Glad someone pretty much agrees
Yes, that's what I'm trying to say, it's just giving birth and humans are getting in the way! I just needed it summed up to think of how to say it in lamest terms.
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Like I said, there are many different theories, I just happen to believe in a more simplistic one. :/ And I didn't exactly say that if he was sentient, that meant he was EVIL, I just said his morality would be put into question. Sort of like being put on trial. We can never know for sure, though, since Lavos is varelse. That's something very unique and interesting about him. He/She/It might just want to look after its children, or it might be totally evil. Can we tell for certain? The planet possibly could communicate with it, maybe, (And it's a big maybe) but our puny human minds cannot possibly hope to grasp Lavos's intentions or mindset.
Like I said, we might as well be squares trying to perceive the depth of a cube. It is impossible.
So it's pretty hard to discuss... :/ These are all very big assumptions we're making, since we never talk to Lavos in-game. Hm. Your theories are quite interesting and out-of-the-box thinking, though. That's a good thing to do, so keep doing it! ;) It will doubtlessly help you.
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Like I said, there are many different theories, I just happen to believe in a more simplistic one. :/ And I didn't exactly say that if he was sentient, that meant he was EVIL, I just said his morality would be put into question. Sort of like being put on trial. We can never know for sure, though, since Lavos is varelse. That's something very unique and interesting about him. He/She/It might just want to look after its children, or it might be totally evil. Can we tell for certain? The planet possibly could communicate with it, maybe, (And it's a big maybe) but our puny human minds cannot possibly hope to grasp Lavos's intentions or mindset.
Like I said, we might as well be squares trying to perceive the depth of a cube. It is impossible.
So it's pretty hard to discuss... :/ These are all very big assumptions we're making, since we never talk to Lavos in-game. Hm. Your theories are quite interesting and out-of-the-box thinking, though. That's a good thing to do, so keep doing it! ;) It will doubtlessly help you.
I understand what your saying with the fact that we can't speak to Lavos, but think about it that is the very reason we can't say he's EVIL (of course we can't say it's GOOD either.)
Lavos is EVIL, but only in our human opinion, because he will destroy life as we know it (I'd like to note he devistates the human race...not destroys it....)
I don't believe anyone or anything is really evil. Except Hitler, but that's my opinion! However if you asked around you would find someone or even may how disagree. Evil is an opinion, not a state of mind!
It is rather unrealistic that someone or something has the intention of being evil or doing evil things
This is ver important. NOTHING thinks it's evil! Anyone we look at throughout history who we would say is evil will not agree with us.
Of course Lavos has more justification for his/her destruction in that he/she/it is giveing birth, not trying to take over the world or get revenge or something like that...GIVEING BIRTH! I think Lavos is intellegent, yes. Lavos evil, I don't think so. Lavos doing bad things, yes. Reason...self-defense. Then again as you said we can't speak to Lavos so we don't know fo certain, but I'd like to think Lavos...no everything is more 3-demensaional then Good and Bad (If the logic you use is true the Cross proves that the Planet is infact evil because it doesn't like us either because we hurt it, and same with the Reptites! We everything that hurts Humanity is evil!)
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This is very important. NOTHING thinks it's evil! Anyone we look at throughout history who we would say is evil will not agree with us.
V thinks he is evil...
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He's not really debating Lavos' ethics so much as morality as a whole. He's not asking 'Is Lavos evil?' but 'What is evil?'...
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Let me rephrase:
V thinks himself as evil.
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I think another reason why it's so hard to judge what Lavos' intentions are is that human emotions get in the way, we think what we feel. Without them we'd be able to understand why lavos does what it does, like the people of the future. However like the peole from the future without those emotions we'd be driven into a cold desolate lifestyle. Emotion=Lavos is evil. No emotion=Lavos is just doing it's own thing.
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I think another reason why it's so hard to judge what Lavos' intentions are is that human emotions get in the way, we think what we feel. Without them we'd be able to understand why lavos does what it does, like the people of the future. However like the peole from the future without those emotions we'd be driven into a cold desolate lifestyle. Emotion=Lavos is evil. No emotion=Lavos is just doing it's own thing.
Hmmmmm actully I think it's quite possible that Lavos has emotions. I mean Lavos can feel anger and hatred (after Lavos is defeated Lavos feels these...note "after being defeated because it's future was prevented.")
I mean in sense we could argue that Chrono and co. did something evil because they killed a creature who in all sense was pregnet simple because it's existence was inconvinent to the human race! I mean it's nature though, destrony that which causes you harm.) but still that doesn't make Lavos evil....that doesn't make Chrono good. No such luck Chrono is good in the eyes of humanity, there is no one who thinks that way of Lavos so Lavos is never given such respect. Lavos did just what Chrono and co did. Tried to ensure it's future in a world where anything is possible.
Neither of them where good nor bad. Infact if you think about it there goals where verymuch the same....ensure a future for all (only diffrence is which species...much like Humans vs Reptites it was mearly the way things are. The diffrence is that the Planet would be hurt by Lavos' future so it was trying to ease it's pain.)
In my opinion Evil doesn't really exisit since something only becomes evil if something thinks it is. We make evil, evil itself isn't a real existence. In my opinion Lavos has feelings, Lavos put it's feeling above our because they were LAVOS' feeling. Lavos could didn't have empathy for us plain and simple, that doesn't make Lavos evil. How could Lavos possible empathise with us even if we have feelings and thoughts...the goals, there was only Lavos vs Planet and Humans...no Good vs Evil.
Look at the history of Chrono's World the conflict
Humans vs Reptites
then
Earthbound vs Zeal (mind you it would turn to Zeal vs Lavos after Zeal got to close)
then
Humans vs Mystics
then
Humans vs well no one reall peaceful huh...untill human vs human.
then
Humans vs Robots
None of the other enemies of humanity were really evil. They just cared more about there goals and race then they cared about getting along with humans. Mind you they sometimes took it to far (Zeal ensalves Earthbound and Motherbrain's Genocide) But they had the best of plans.)
Reptites: Survivel of the fittest.
Zeal: Immortality
Mystics: A world for Mystics/Demons
Mother Brain: an Age of Steel.
None of them were perfect, some went to extreams, but none were truely evil.
So why is it Lavos has to be evil. WHy can't it be the same way. The reasons, because unlike the other LAVOS WON, Lavos beat us!! So of course we see Lavos as evil!
Let me rephrase:
V thinks himself as evil.
Hmmmmm yes be we like V that way....right?
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In the end though, it all comes down to Lavos vs The Entity.
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In the end though, it all comes down to Lavos vs The Entity.
Yes that's true, however neither are evil, nor good. The Entity is fighting for its future and Lavos is fighting for it's. I see no Good or Evil there, only life. Heck the Planet isn't even fighting, really it's just haveing flashbacks and noticed "hey these guys might be able to help." it doesn't seem to care about us all that much either, only it's survival (or at least it's not suffering considering it would have mostlikey recovered after a long period of time).
On the other hand I accept to logic the the TD is a negitive force toward life and nature but I like to think that despite being a creature created from Lavos and Schala it is consumed with anger and hatred that it's original goal as Lavos (gather DNA,reproduction, ensureing it's future) means nothing to it anymore as it is no longer part of nature in anyway and due it's new twisted form only desires nothingness. (or so it seems, but even I would find it difficult to argue in the TDs favor.)
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In the end, Schala seems to say that the living beings of the planet are really a part of the planet, kind of like its offspring in a way...?
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In the end, Schala seems to say that the living beings of the planet are really a part of the planet, kind of like its offspring in a way...?
Hmmm yes that's true. Lavos' is not a being from the panet so the planet dislikes him (mind you Lavos is a Parasite, but so are a lot of things). The TD lack an natural existence and has become non-exsitence. If Lavos is the enemy because he is not of the Planet, but he is still part of nature, just on a more universal scale. Hmmmmm still that desn't make Lavos evil. Unless you pile all the facts together in a way that ignores Lavos' side you can't say he's evil. heck you can barely say he's malevolent.
-He crashd into the planet. (Because Lavos wanted to feed then give birth, time to hide and rest right)
-Zeal got used by him and he destroyed Zeal Kingdom (The found out about him and began useing him as an energy source, they had to be removed, heck in the Chrono Timeline he honor his deal with Queen Zeal!)
-600AD he would have killed Magus because Magus summons him!
-1000AD, Lavos does nothing...no one bothers her!
-1999AD Lavos finishes her/his feeding, time to give birth and then mostlikly die!
-2300AD Lavos is dead, a few straglers are left behind they will mostlikely leave on there own when they are strong enough, Planet will most likley recover, in Chrono Timeline Black Omen still floats in the sky!
Where in this proves Lavos is Malevolent or Evil (in the case of Zeal Kingdom he had to ensure they were removed forever! They where draining his energy! and he still honored his deal with Queen Zeal!).
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If it kept his part of the bargain with Queen Zeal, then it's not a parasite. I can't remember what it's called but I remember from school(never thought I'd have to use something from there in something like here)that there's a scientific term for a being that uses and takes from it's host, th planet AND Zeal and gives something in return. So is it possible it's giving something back to the planet in return for using it since it did that with Queen Zeal?
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You're talking about a symbiote, ONSLAUGHT...
-1000AD, Lavos does nothing...no one bothers her!
Lavos is the cause of the earthquakes in 1000AD.
-2300AD Lavos is dead, a few straglers are left behind they will mostlikely leave on there own when they are strong enough, Planet will most likley recover, in Chrono Timeline Black Omen still floats in the sky!
I don't think we know one way or the other if Lavos is actually dead at that point...and either way, the Mother Brain's nation of steel would destroy humanity.
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Symbiote, thank you. Forgot the word.
And yeah, there really is no proof of whatever happened to Lavos after 1999 AD.
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You're talking about a symbiote, ONSLAUGHT...
-1000AD, Lavos does nothing...no one bothers her!
Lavos is the cause of the earthquakes in 1000AD.
-2300AD Lavos is dead, a few straglers are left behind they will mostlikely leave on there own when they are strong enough, Planet will most likley recover, in Chrono Timeline Black Omen still floats in the sky!
I don't think we know one way or the other if Lavos is actually dead at that point...and either way, the Mother Brain's nation of steel would destroy humanity.
Yes your right, I just think that Lavos died then, it seems quite possible that Lavos might die apon giving birth.
and as for Mother Brain, She's got nothing to do with Lavos so ignoring her genocide is disturbingly easy for me to do, the stagerlers I mentiond where the Lavos Spawn, and finally the planet will eventully recover, rule by a nation of steel, tragic to humans...yes...tragic to robots...not so much.
There's no real proof that Lavos caused the earthquakes of 1000AD (It seems odd that Lavos would be restless 999 years before) that may have been the planet itself reacting (the planet becomes more active as it reaches the point) so Lavos may be inavertable causeing the earthquakes, they could also just be large earthquakes.
and I suppose Lavos has some symbitoic ways, but mostly she/he is a parasite. Wouldn't it be funny if Lavos did leave something for the Planet, and the planet never noticed (that wuld be funny)
(did they say Lavos caused the earthquakes? I don't remember seeing that in the game)
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I'm actually starting to think on that if it left anything for us... Because it is always possible that the Lavos Spawn might have given something, it's just that they were killed almost immediately.
Or perhaps lavos is giving something in return to the humans? Because think about it, everytime humans(normal humans)have had to fight against something, Reptites, Enlightened, Mystics, every single time Lavos has always been the cause for their wipe out. When Lavos landed on the planet, it took down the reptite palace this killing off the reptites for the most part.(Giant's claw, more so buried them but they were still gotten rid of) Then when the enlightened practically had the earthbound enslaved, Lavos destroyed the Kingdom Of Zeal(Save the Queen of course). And after that when battling with the Mystics Lavos destroyed Magus' castle resulting in the Mystics having no leader and absolutely no purpose to fight, they were beaten(since lets face it at the time, the mystics weren't exactly the smartest beings, how else is it that Yakra became a commander for them? Or OZZIE?!). Then humans had no quarrels or wars in the present era and so Lavos simpy slept(maybe a yawn since people do that in their sleep as well as animals)could have caused the earthquakes or maybe slight movement like when you toss and turn at night. then, Lavos erupted onto the planet and gave birth. After that since Lavos had gotten what IT wanted, there was really no reason to assist the humans in the future against the robots, hence their obvious and inevitable victory.
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Sure I'd be pissed too if I were Lavos. But the dude (or lady) just can't expect to rush into our Earth and destroy it just for it's own selfish purposes. So because Lavos has to reproduce and survive and protect it's children our future has to be ruined? The planet's inhabitants have more reasons to be pissed off then Lavos imo.
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Sure I'd be pissed too if I were Lavos. But the dude (or lady) just can't expect to rush into our Earth and destroy it just for it's own selfish purposes. So because Lavos has to reproduce and survive and protect it's children our future has to be ruined? The planet's inhabitants have more reasons to be pissed off then Lavos imo.
If you paid attention I already said Chrono and his group where justified in there actions.
And you consider giveing children a future "selfish"? Okkkk I feel bed for you first kid. I think surivival is kinda a thing most creature (even humans) put first. Lavos didn't have a stake in our future so obviously it didn't care about that.
Much like if you wnat a promotion, your not gonna spend all the time pitying the others who didn't get the promtion. Lavos needed a planet, Chrono's planet fit the bill. I admit Lavos is intellegnt but I doubt he cared much about the planet considering it wasn't the one she/he is from(if the planet even still exists).
but I never acted like the Entity or Chrono was wrong! I'm just considering Lavos motive in this all. I mean nothing in the natural universe is "just trying to be evil" Lavos would either be dead or gone after 1999AD so she never thought "I shouldn't leave this place a mess.
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Well sure Lavos has it's reasons, but I never really cared about that really. For me it was always just "It's f*cking up our planet, so it must die"
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I think the evil comes from the idea that it doesn't need to lay the ultimate smackdown on the planet in order to spawn. I mean, it's such an all-powerful being, right? Why the need for such ultimate destruction to rain from the heavens like that? It just seems like such a, "Okay, I'm done with you, so eff off" kind of move that it's easy to interpret its actions as "evil".
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I think the evil comes from the idea that it doesn't need to lay the ultimate smackdown on the planet in order to spawn. I mean, it's such an all-powerful being, right? Why the need for such ultimate destruction to rain from the heavens like that? It just seems like such a, "Okay, I'm done with you, so eff off" kind of move that it's easy to interpret its actions as "evil".
That could be part of the act. I mean maybe it just happens when it gives birth. Oh course the only way to know would be to understand how it gives birth. Like I said Lavos can be depicted as evil by us because he harms us. It would be like being attacked by an animal then claim that animal is evil because it doesn't care about you (of course Lavos is much more intellegent, but the idea still works)
Either way it's actions towards us were evil in our minds, but I highly doubt Lavos was trying to be evil or cruel.
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Evil. Such a strong word in some cases. I can discuss this forever! *chuckles*
But Evil, much like the human aspects of Time, is only a persception of a being. One who views something as Evil is only viewing it in their perspective. What is Evil to one, might not be considered Evil to another. Of course, in most cases, Evil is harmful is some way, but on rare occassions is is either a misunderstanding or a helpful cause to the enviroment, Time, History, or other such thing. Of course, such Good Evils are rarely documented, so thus they are not part of History. Only the Evil Evils are documented, because they influence us the most.
Take Lavos for instance. If Lavos were meerly reproducing, it was doing Evil with good intention for itself with bad results for the host planet. If Lavos meant to destroy the planet by some diabolical plot (the fact that it is very intelligent), then it would commiting a Evil action with Evil intention for itself or possibly some other higher aspect with bad results for the host planet.
Either way you look at it, both intentions are bad in any way. For us that is.
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Is it just me, or does it just seem like Lavos....Didn't intentionally end up on earth? Seriously, how much control would one have flying through space without the use of a rocket or something? My best guess is that the planet that it was previously on blew up, and it was on a random collision course with earth. So it's not like it intentionally CHOSE earth as a new place to rest and respawn. It just latched on and started doing what overgrown... parasites do. :lol:
But the real credable reason that Lavos had to be stopped was because, well, humans fight to survive too. So both creatures really aren't all that different.
I mean, who's to say that humans didn't fall from space from a rock and just developed overtime either? for all we know, humans and lavos could be the same type of beings; parasites.
Just a thought.
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Just random? idk about that...it seems that in order to spawn properly that Lavos needed a planet with life on it...and we're told that Lavos' spawn are going to repeat the process...Do you mean to think that Lavos will simply blow up the planet somehow & fling his spawn randomly throughout the cosmos, hoping that they just might end up landing on a planet with life? After all of that time? Besides, I'm fairly sure Lavos is powerful enough to direct itself through space.
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I think the evil comes from the idea that it doesn't need to lay the ultimate smackdown on the planet in order to spawn. I mean, it's such an all-powerful being, right? Why the need for such ultimate destruction to rain from the heavens like that? It just seems like such a, "Okay, I'm done with you, so eff off" kind of move that it's easy to interpret its actions as "evil".
I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak. I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet. Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables. Its just a preventative measure.
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I think that Lavos intentionally ended up on earth, as Azala seemed to know it was going to fall. Though just because it used Queen Zeal as a puppet doesn' suggest that it's evil. The kingdom of Zeal used it's power, so it used her to pull
the kingdom over the edge.
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I think that Lavos intentionally ended up on earth, as Azala seemed to know it was going to fall.
Uh yeah...because a giant friggin' red object was in the sky getting closer and closer each day :D. It doesn't necessarily mean Lavos ended up there intentionally, however.
But logically speaking, Lavos would have to be able to direct where it wanted to go. Reproduction just wouldn't be that efficient otherwise.
I always thought a cool (although completely made up by myself) possibility was that time travel technically equals space travel if you want it to. Think about it. If you were to really time travel to even 10 years in the past to relatively the same point in space (universal expansion notwithstanding), you wouldn't end up on earth but somewhere out in space. The earth moves around the sun and the sun orbits the center of the galaxy and the galaxy is speeding through the universe at an enormous rate. Since time and space are necessarily equivalent time travel could take you lightyears away. Since Lavos clearly has control over time, I always thought that this was a plausible way for him to travel through space in a short period of time and find planets containing life.
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Yeah, that's what bugs me about most instances of time travel in literature (or whatever), unless they say that their machine/device/portal defies time and space...in Chrono Trigger, though it seems as though time travel is related in some way to the life force of the planet (and/or the beings of the planet).
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I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak. I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet. Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables. Its just a preventative measure.
I will agree with you. When Lavos destroyed things in 1999 it was just to ensure that the locals would not harm its offspring. Also, I do not see Lavos as evil, but just as an animal doing what it needs to survive. The Entity is doing the same thing during the game. Opening the gates to allow something the possibility to destroy Lavos.
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I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak. I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet. Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables. Its just a preventative measure.
I will agree with you. When Lavos destroyed things in 1999 it was just to ensure that the locals would not harm its offspring. Also, I do not see Lavos as evil, but just as an animal doing what it needs to survive. The Entity is doing the same thing during the game. Opening the gates to allow something the possibility to destroy Lavos.
I would give the Entity more credit though. During the Fiona forest scene Lucca expresses that she regrets a memory she'd rather not talk about. The Entity also recalls this memory, sympathizes with her, and gives her an opportunity to change it. I would say that the Entity and Lavos are somewhat like us: instinctual with that "something" extra. The Entity's case for intellect can be argued with the example I used but what about Lavos? I guess it depends on your perception - did Lavos ever manipulate Zeal for some purpose, or was it a one-way parasitic connection to harvest his power?
Lavos did let them get really close...
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I think Lavos is rendered quite inactive after he erupts in 1999AD and then gets buried by rubble creating Death Peak. I think part of its nature is to significantly reduce the chances of its spawn being destroyed by life on the planet, so he wipes out life on the planet. Like how we, to a smaller extent, lock our doors to protect our children and valuables. Its just a preventative measure.
I will agree with you. When Lavos destroyed things in 1999 it was just to ensure that the locals would not harm its offspring. Also, I do not see Lavos as evil, but just as an animal doing what it needs to survive. The Entity is doing the same thing during the game. Opening the gates to allow something the possibility to destroy Lavos.
I would give the Entity more credit though. During the Fiona forest scene Lucca expresses that she regrets a memory she'd rather not talk about. The Entity also recalls this memory, sympathizes with her, and gives her an opportunity to change it. I would say that the Entity and Lavos are somewhat like us: instinctual with that "something" extra. The Entity's case for intellect can be argued with the example I used but what about Lavos? I guess it depends on your perception - did Lavos ever manipulate Zeal for some purpose, or was it a one-way parasitic connection to harvest his power?
Lavos did let them get really close...
(Wow it's been awhile since I posted.)
Hmmmmm The Entity gave Lucca a chance to save her mother out of sympathy maybe......Lavos gave Queen Zeal Immortality (technically....as long as no one killed her she didn't age) as s/he promised her. Lavos is obviously capable of understanding things. The question is if it was natural for a human to kill someone inorder to give birth then would that be evil. It's quite possible that the rain of fire is just part of the process. Pay attention! It's nature! Lavos vs the Planet! One must die (or at teh very least suffer....whiney planet) in order for the other to live! It's tragic but true, they are playing there natural roles...they just happen to be alot more...powerful then us. I don't think good and evil crossed either of them in this case.
I mean sometime it seems like people think Lavos was targeting this planet just to make us angry or a personal reason (other then feeding, giving birth, and dying). Lavos isn't gonna say "Oh I should pass that planet cause the people might get upset" One healthy planet is the same as another. People don't say "I don't want this lot of land, I might upset the ants!"
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I think it really comes down to if Lavos is a higher life form mentally or if he runs on instincts as some people believe. If he is an animal following his reproductive instincts then no, he is not evil in that he doesn't have the mental function to understand the difference between good and evil.
If he IS sentient I would argue committing genocide of another intelligent species (and he is aware of our intelligence, due to his corruption of Queen Zeal) for it's own ends is evil. Doing it as a 'precautionary measure' to prevent harm to it's offspring is akin to me carpet bombing everything within a 50 mile radius of my house just in case a wild dog might exist to hurt my child. But I wouldn't be doing it to combat wild dogs, I'd be doing it to combat another sentient species with self-awareness.
The separate species argument never held up with me, if we traveled to another planet and found another species at their equivalent of the middle ages and we started killing them since it didn't matter, they 'arn't human' I would definitely call that an evil act on our part. Heck maybe we needed the planet to settle on or we would die, murdering the sentient lifeform simply for that reason is intolerable. There are other methods to try before genocide, a whole mess of them.
People throw around these terms that Lavos's mental state is either so far higher then ours as to be incomprehensible, or so low as to be an animal running entirely on instinct. I believe those arguments are merely theories which, in many cases, lack substance and mainly are used just to justify Lavos's actions.
Can't anyone simply be evil anymore?
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Villians in most RPG's are either
Evil because they want revenge, Evil because they used to be good, and turned evil for no apparent reason, Evil because they are crazy(Sephiroth), or just plain evil(Kefka.).
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Don't forget:
Evil, because although they are actually doing something good, they are the villains for doing it through evil acts.
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Don't forget:
Evil, because although they are actually doing something good, they are the villains for doing it through evil acts.
That would be a variant of the "the ends do not justify the means" quote I take it?
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I think that Lavos intentionally ended up on earth, as Azala seemed to know it was going to fall.
Uh yeah...because a giant friggin' red object was in the sky getting closer and closer each day :D. It doesn't necessarily mean Lavos ended up there intentionally, however.
But logically speaking, Lavos would have to be able to direct where it wanted to go. Reproduction just wouldn't be that efficient otherwise.
I don't think Lavos and Efficient are two things that fit together, he sat on his duff for 65+ Million years collecting DNA when Humanity Hasn't changed all that much from the time of Zeal and there weren't that many variants in the evolution of Fiends to explain why he waited as long as he did to reproduce.
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Don't forget:
Evil, because although they are actually doing something good, they are the villains for doing it through evil acts.
That would be a variant of the "the ends do not justify the means" quote I take it?
Yes, although I always find it interesting the irony present when the heroes realize they just finished with the only hope many other people had, like in Tales of Phantasia. Where there is a big, "Oh no, what have we done?" situation.
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Don't forget:
Evil, because although they are actually doing something good, they are the villains for doing it through evil acts.
That would be a variant of the "the ends do not justify the means" quote I take it?
Yes, although I always find it interesting the irony present when the heroes realize they just finished with the only hope many other people had, like in Tales of Phantasia. Where there is a big, "Oh no, what have we done?" situation.
Ah yes... Dhaos... I totally did not see that coming when I had finished that game. It was indeed ironic.