Chrono Compendium

Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => History, Locations, and Artifacts => Topic started by: Thought on March 07, 2008, 07:10:38 pm

Title: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 07, 2008, 07:10:38 pm
This was discussed to a small extent over in the Ayla (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,3168.30.html) thread, but it seems like a topic that might need its own home.

To summarize the problem: In Chrono Trigger, humans exist in 65000000 B.C. in a mostly modern state, lacking only the ability to use magic. In Chrono Cross, it is speculated that Humans came about as a result of Lavos' influence. Presumably, Lavos' influences on human (or proto-humans) could only occur after he arrived on the planet, thus indicating that "humans" in 65000000 were not really humans but would start to evolve into modern incarnations in 3000000 B.C. (with contact with the Frozen Flame). On one hand, this implies that Ayla was not human (and indeed, Leah), but that is directly contradicted by observable evidence. Why is there such a discrepancy and can it be explained?

To extrapolate: The Early Human Diagram (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chronopolis_%28Early_Human_Diagram%29.html) displays humans before Lavos' contact. At best, this could only be as early as 65000000 (though possibly as late as 3000000). This does not match up with how Ayla or Leah appear, who both exist as, for all intents and purposes, fully functional humans prior to Lavos' fall. Furthermore, the ONLY evolutionary change that appears to be evident over 65000000ish years is that humans developed the ability to use magic. To put things in perspective, in the Real World mammals were new on the scene in 65,000,000, it would take another 30,000,000ish years before you'd see the first recognizable monkeys, with another 10,000,000 years before Apes. Australopithecus arrived on the scene around 3,900,000. In short, even if Ayla's people weren't perfectly human, huge spans of time passed with comparatively no human evolution (even the development of Magic can't account for it all).

This seems to be the result of a basic design flaw; Chrono Trigger wanted to link Lavos' fall with the impact that killed off the dinosaurs, in the Real World, and Chrono Cross wanted to present a more realistic version of human evolution. However, by putting Humans (that is, points of emotional connection for the player) in 65,000,000 the designers allowed for a contradiction.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 07, 2008, 07:28:59 pm
Okay, so the problem is out there now.  We understand the state in both Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, and most likely it was designer oversight.  What are our theories / thoughts on the plausible links concerning the events of evolution?

I stated in the Ayla thread that perhaps the Human in 65 Million BC hadn't involved; quite the contrary.  Somehow, perhaps they were the offspring of time travels who had traveled to pre-65 Million BC and had devolved into a primitive, cavemen like state.  This would be similar to the events concerning the Time Crash and Chronopolis.

However, we have no evidence to support this theory.  Also, taking this theory into perspective, one would have to wonder if the Humans circa 65 Million BC survived to form all later Humans, thus creating a complex paradox into the origin of humanity as being an endless cycle (and perhaps delving into Fatalism).

A beginner's theory, no doubt.  What does everyone else think?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 07, 2008, 08:22:52 pm
The Sun Stone.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 07, 2008, 08:29:09 pm
okay.  how so?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Kebrel on March 07, 2008, 09:22:30 pm
Translation error on the Dragonians perhaps, not the frozen flame but sun stone evolved them both objects of vast power, other then magic there technology is more advanced could the learn magic through tech. the dragonians the said there cursed by lavos not admitting they were weaker.

two minutes of thinking gave me that. :D
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: BROJ on March 07, 2008, 09:35:37 pm
Okay, this my opinion on a *possible* scenario:
First consider that Lavos is creature that can naturally bend/break the laws of time. Does that ability derive to every part of his body? (I am not sure this has been discussed in another topic or not...) If it does, that could possibly mean that the Frozen Flame could have traveled 235,000,000 years in the past on impact as a chaotic reaction to being broken off. Questions/Comments please, I am curious if you think my theory *could* solve the Frozen Flame paradox.

As V_Translanka said, the sun stone is a very possible scenario, even though there are a few inconsistencies; certainly not as many as the Frozen Flame paradox provides, though...


Kebrel:If I am making false conclusions due to translation errors, forgive I haven't read the retranslated CC text yet...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 08, 2008, 02:53:47 am
You could look at it as a non-literal meaning of the word "evolution"...so many people use it wrong these days anyways...The Sun Stone was an item of great power that allowed them to do great things. I could see them thinking of that as a kind of 'evolution'. There's a lot of open history there we just plain don't know about...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Kebrel on March 08, 2008, 04:58:24 am
You could look at it as a non-literal meaning of the word "evolution"...so many people use it wrong these days anyways...The Sun Stone was an item of great power that allowed them to do great things. I could see them thinking of that as a kind of 'evolution'. There's a lot of open history there we just plain don't know about...
thats kinda what I was getting at misunderstanding. Humans might not have been imbued with magic, but just simple learned it, that I think would also take longer wouldn't it.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 08, 2008, 06:07:45 pm
Yeah, and also there weren't very many people or groups that the humans were fighting after Lavos came, right? What with the Ice Age descending upon them...Perhaps they just had no real way of gaining Magic experience. If we take the battle system at more than face-value we can see that fighting experience is the majority of how one gains a mastery over the Magic arts in the Chronoverse.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Kebrel on March 08, 2008, 06:47:06 pm
that also helps explain the earthbound ones with out magic there weaker the halve less magic. what about say 600A.D there was lots of conflict. but know magic because the plain did know the had it.

Like math, any one an do it, and better the more they do it. But a kid won't know about it unless taught.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: satchel_dawg on March 08, 2008, 11:04:20 pm
a possible theory:
humans were weak during ayla's time, and could not sustain immunity to certain things. but upon the frozen flames arrival, it caused a second group of people to come in existence(magic using) who eventually populated zeal. so the earthbound could be the ones who were not changed by the flames power(therefore deemed inferior by magic users). but when zeal fell, and the two groups reproduced together, they created what would be deemed the modern human(elemental users, and more advanced). so when it is said that without lavos influenced humans, it could mean that without him, everyone would die off early in time and the planet wouldn't be able to sustain life.

that was jumbled. :(
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 09, 2008, 04:12:51 am
Ayla clearly wasn't weak though. She was superhuman, even. Tail Spin inflicts magical energy damage as well...and Charm & Kiss are also magical in nature...I think if anything the FF expanded upon their ability to use abilities with magical properties and that thus evolved into the usage of Magic itself...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 10, 2008, 01:20:05 pm
You could look at it as a non-literal meaning of the word "evolution"...so many people use it wrong these days anyways...The Sun Stone was an item of great power that allowed them to do great things. I could see them thinking of that as a kind of 'evolution'. There's a lot of open history there we just plain don't know about...

Very good point. One of the annoying things about "evolution" is that it changes meaning if one capitalizes it or not. Capital E "Evolution" requires genetic change of one species to another, but lower case e "evolution" can just mean change (as in one species changing into another, or the same species "changing" by developing culture, magic, etc, or it could mean the extraction of a root from a quantity, in mathematics).

The problem is, however, that the Earthbound seem to lack the genetic trait, not just the knowledge, of how to use magic. If magic is merely knowledge, then there would be absolutely nothing separating a year old Earthbound child from a year old Enlightened Child. Indeed, if it were knowledge alone then Robo should be able to learn magic easily enough. Indeed, if magic is knowledge then any individual should be able to learn to use any time of magic. Likewise Ayla, despite living prior to the development of magic, should still be able to use it (she lived before the development of Time Travel too, but that doesn't stop her from using that knowledge). Rather, magic seems to be a combination of genetic ability and knowledge (sort of like the World-Walking ability/W* heterozygote gene of the Merchant Princes series, by Charles Stross).

It is curious that over the course of 65,000,000 years the Reptites evolved into a different species (the Dragonians) but humans did not. This establishes, if nothing else does, the expectation that Humans should not exist both in 65,000,000 and 2300 A.D as a single, unchanged species.

So, give that, if I might try to methodoligically review things.

1) Humans should have evolved into a different species over 65,000,000 (as illustrated by the change of Reptites to Dragonians over that time period).

2) Evolution need not necessitate physical charge; the development of magic required the development of knowledge of how to use it.

3) However, magic ability is still in the realm of one's genes (as illustrated by Ayla and Robo being unable to use it, as well as the separation of the Enlightened Ones and the Earthbound).

I just realized that we might actually see the different species that humans were to evolve into; the Mystics.

From that, if I may extrapolate wildly (and I do mean wildly); humans did evolve and separate into various species in the 65,000,000 years between when we first see Ayla and when Chronopolis conducted its research. However, the species evolved into the Mystics (thus solving why there is no significant genetic change over such a long period of time). Even among humans we see what might have eventually led to separate species; the Enlightened Ones and the Earthbound. To note, evolution doesn't necessitate that the previous species be replaced; Coelacanths, for example, were note replaced, whole hog, by more "evolved" species.

Thus the Frozen Flame might be said to have three possible influences on Evolution; it could speed it up (but we don't see actual evidence of this in the game, only the indications from Chronopolis), or it may have no effect whatsoever on evolution, or it may slow it down (as humans remain largely unchanged over the course of 65 million years in game). This later possibility seems to conform to the "physical" evidence of the game and only contradicts Chronopolis.

This also then allows for the lines in Chrono Trigger about a "strange red rock" to still mean Dreamstone (which I believe was the original intent, rather than the later retconning it as more analogous to the Frozen Flame). To quote both the NA and ReTranslation versions of the book:

Quote from: NA Book in Zeal
It all began aeons ago, when man's ancestors picked up a shard of a strange red rock...
Its power, which was beyond human comprehension, cultivated dreams...
In turn, love and hate were born...
Only time will see how it all ends.

Quote from: RT Book
Tens of millions of years ago, the ancestors of humans happened to take a fragment of a mysterious red rock in hand...
Everything started from there.
A power that surpassed human knowledge gave rise to dreams and gave birth to love and hate...
What manner of ending will that see...?
Perhaps only time knows the answer.

If the above is not total bunk, this would then help develop the dichotomy displayed in the series (Human/Reptite, Lavos/Entity, and Frozen Flame/Dreamstone). The biggest argument against Dreamstone causing human evolution is the argument that Dreamstone existed in human hands long before Zeal. While true, that doesn't indicate that evolution didn't occur. Human intelligence existed in 65,000,000 and thus may have already been the result of dreamstone.

Second to Last Note: Boo, there actually is some evidence for your theory that humans in 65000000 were transported there from the future; Kino came from the Mystic Mts, possibly through a gate. And Leah, likewise, traveled to the future and stayed there for an extended period of time. It is quite possible that Kino was from the future, and if Leah could travel to and live in the future, a future individual could travel to and live in the past.

Final note: While the Sun Stone may have also had some influence on this ďchange,Ē such an influence isnít even hinted at.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 10, 2008, 02:50:28 pm
Magic also has to be unlocked. Like how Spekkio does for Crono & Co. So, that means that the ability is there, but that it's just blocked (dampened might be a better words since, like w/Tail Spin & Slash there are still Magical abilities). Perhaps the Sun Stone was what originally unlocked their latent ability and the higher ups kept this away from certain individuals in order to keep power over them. Or just out of selfishness...we get to see what became of the Zealians after all...

Or maybe it was just that the FF only passed on a genetic unlocker that only affected some (and eventually faded through the generations).

I think the Reptites were FORCED to change though because of 1) being decimated by Humans & 2) drastic eviromental changes...both their lair was destroyed and the Ice Age came about in one (red star) fall swoop. Humans evolved in how they lived, of course. No more Hunting Range...no competition or harassing from the Reptites...both villages came together...all of these things factor in for a more laid back evolution, not unlike the course we're currently on due to similar factors, I believe...

Speaking of Laruba...I think they obviouslly influenced Zealian physical attributes...but perhaps, as I was saying, they too were the most prone to become selfish and such probably it was them and not the Iokans who found the Sun Stone (or the FF or w/e)...

Quote from: Thought
The biggest argument against Dreamstone causing human evolution is the argument that Dreamstone existed in human hands long before Zeal. While true, that doesn't indicate that evolution didn't occur. Human intelligence existed in 65,000,000 and thus may have already been the result of dreamstone.

You can easily make a case for that, I think. Since Ayla was a superhuman...and also since she was Chief & thus had that large hunk of Dreamstone, perhaps it affected her most...Though they also made weapons & armors out of it...though to obtain it other than those that made it (perhaps they didn't actually use their warez though) you'd need to be out fighting monsters gathering fangs, petals, horns, & feathers...Also, perhaps Dreamstone has to be really tempered to be of such significant use. Like the Sun Stone powering up, so too does Dreamstone by absorbing Magical energies...or perhaps the armors made of Dreamstone finally absorbed enough fiery blows from those dinosaurs...

Speaking of the dinosaurs...is it not odd that one Iokan points out the Reptites weakness towards Lightning? How would they know that unless they have someone who has some Lightning elemental Tech? Something ala Crono's Slash at least? In Chrono Cross we see that a lot of people have Techs w/elemental properties...though how even those would fit into the overall Magic system is still kind of vague...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 10, 2008, 02:57:37 pm
i always assumed that cc's tech system stemmed from the dragonian elements...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 10, 2008, 02:59:07 pm
Yeah, but not all CC Techs are equipped. Some are naturally learned.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 10, 2008, 03:25:14 pm
Magic also has to be unlocked. Like how Spekkio does for Crono & Co. So, that means that the ability is there, but that it's just blocked (dampened might be a better words since, like w/Tail Spin & Slash there are still Magical abilities).

Unlocked possibly, or just made aware of. If an individual had no idea how to use magic, yet had the talent, would they have displayed it? Sort of like Clark Kent in Smallville; he can fly, but the character doesn't know how so he doesn't. (note, I am only referencing Smallville and the Merchant Princes to illustrate concepts that I am not sure I am actually conveying properly; Iím not trying to argue from such things).

I think the Reptites were FORCED to change though because of 1) being decimated by Humans & 2) drastic eviromental changes...both their lair was destroyed and the Ice Age came about in one (red star) fall swoop. Humans evolved in how they lived, of course. No more Hunting Range...no competition or harassing from the Reptites...both villages came together...all of these things factor in for a more laid back evolution, not unlike the course we're currently on due to similar factors, I believe...

But I thought Lavos never fell in the Dragonian Dimension. Thus, no drastic environmental change. Without Crono and Co, it is debatable if Ayla would have been able to defeat Azala (or if events would have even conspired to have her attempt such a confrontation). Besides, humans were decimated by the Reptites and had to survive drastic environmental changes too. If those forced the Reptites to Evolve, why not humans?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 10, 2008, 03:46:18 pm
Oh, I wasn't talking about the Dragonians in the Dragonian Dimension. In that case, it'd just be the opposite. They would have evolved similar to how the humans did w/o the Reptites...I was talking about the Mystics...

I think Ayla would have done fine w/o Crono & Co. Kiss is one of her earliest Techs, so she'd be able to recover whenever she needed to...Plus, since she wouldn't have needed to share experience, she'd be even more powerful, right?

But either way, what does that have to do w/anything...? The Reptites were still gonna get the kaibosh from Lavos, right?

Humans woudn't be as prone to the environmental changes as the cold-blooded Reptites. Also, since the two villages came together, they'd have actually flourished...besides having to scavenge for food.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 10, 2008, 04:59:08 pm
But either way, what does that have to do w/anything...? The Reptites were still gonna get the kaibosh from Lavos, right?

Right, but I thought you were saying that the Reptites in the Dragonian dimension (where they do not get the kaibosh from Lavos) were devestated by the humans (which helped them evolve). Sorry for the mistake.

But I doubt Ayla alone could have taken on all the Reptites with certainty. Azala and the Black Tyranno could have probably outdone her; Imagine sleep followed up with Tyranno Flame and finished with a nice Teleports a Rock. Ayla would be kissing herself stupid the whole time; Azala and the Tyranno could just outlast her MP.

But none of that is really hither nor thither.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 10, 2008, 07:43:12 pm
Oh...mebby...Azala gets squashed pretty early though (might depend on which Techs Ayla would have at that point if she was training alone), so I was thinking she'd just have to withstand the fire attacks from the Black Tyranno...easy w/the right armor, which are readily available for her...but yeah...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 11, 2008, 04:25:54 pm
keystone timeline:  maybe ayla never went to tyrano lair in the keystone timeline...  and azala just got powned by the meteorite-lavos.

wait.  i think i'm not following the conversation well.  i think my mind is elsewhere.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 11, 2008, 06:20:50 pm
Okay, so theories thus far:

1) Humans in 65,000,000 BC are really from the future (Boo, reply #1 on 1st page).

2) The sun stone evolved humans in some fashion (V_Translanka, reply #2 on 1st page, expanded by Krebel, reply #4 1st page)

3) Frozen flame was actually sent into the past on impact and already had evolved humans to a 65,000,000 state and they then stayed fairly constant to modern times. (BROJ, reply #5, 1st page)

4) The Frozen Flame only evolved half of humans, creating the Enlightened One and Earthbound, who then rejoined the species and produced modern humans (Satchel_Dawg, reply #10, page 1)

5) Humans diverged and evolved into Mystics (Thought, reply #12, page 1)

6) Human evolution was stunted, not sped up, by the frozen flame (Thought, reply #12, page 1)

A side discussion then followed as to if Ayla could have defeated the Reptites, among other things. This seems to have been largely the result of a confusion and seems to be generally unimportant to the thread topic.

In order to work, one of these theories (or another theory, or an amalgamation of these theories) but explain the following:

I) It must explain why humans do not appear to significantly evolve (apart from the apparent introduction of magic) between 65,000,000 and 12,000 BC. (Some large scale evolution should be expected)

II) It must explain why Chronopolis indicates that the Frozen Flame evolved humans when the "physical" evidence (humans in 65,000,000 and 12,000 appearing as the same) contradicts this.

III) It must offer a coherent chronology for human evolution (what evolved into what, why, and when).

Did I leave anything out? If not, then we might be able to solve this riddle by systematically addressing the theories presented so far and evaluating their merits and shortcomings (which may either necessitate discarding those theories entirely or merging them into one Grand Unification Theory... thingy).

>.>
<.<

Boo the Gentleman Caller, what's the matter with you?
You don't theorize like the other forumites do.
You hypothesize about those human guys.
But they're not men, they're monekys, Boo.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: BROJ on March 11, 2008, 09:04:16 pm
You don't theorize like the other forumites do.
HEY! What's that supposed to mean!?  :lol:
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 12, 2008, 03:29:51 pm
i didn't understand the type-1 text...  i am going to WISH that that was a compliment, but for now, let me think on it...

PS - at this point in the analysis i am doubting the potential awesomeness of a unification theory.  just not enough info from the sources (CT and CC).
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 12, 2008, 04:05:25 pm
That was just the result of a somewhat famous song  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu0taBOtM04) (lyrics here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_Boo#Theme_and_Voice)) running through my head almost constantly over the last two days. Boo just had the proper name for the variation. Anywho, silliness aside:

But even if there isn't quite enough information in the series to create a single grand unification theory, we should be able to come up with what such a theory might look like, if more information is ever provided.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 12, 2008, 04:26:25 pm
Agreed.  Perhaps we should start fleshing out each theory soon?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on March 12, 2008, 04:32:04 pm
I think it's also important to note the differences in the interpretation of the word 'evolution'.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 12, 2008, 07:22:33 pm
that's true, too, translanka.

the word evolution means, 'a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form,' http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evolution (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evolution), but due to attachments of darwinian evolution we should probably find a different word to use to avoid confusion.

human development?  human deepening?  human process?

Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 13, 2008, 11:30:41 am
Well, what specifically is the non-Synthetic Model of Evolution meaning of the word supposed to represent?

There is the genetic Evolution of the species that seems to need to be addressed,
The cultural evolution of human society that might need to be discussed,
And the evolution of magic (which seems important enough to separate from the other two).

Is there another type of change that we should be considering?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 28, 2008, 05:05:11 pm
Well, so as to not let the thread die for want of effort on my part, I suppose I'll see about addressing some of the theories and weed a few out (mind, final conclusions however would really need to wait until the respective proponents extrapolate the original theories.

So, Theory #1: The humans in 65,000,000 BC, as seen in Chrono Trigger, are really from the future. Simply put, Humans are so evolved in that time period because evolution already took place. This does get around the problem of the seemingly different models of evolution displayed in CT and CC. It is not without some circumstantial in-game evidence either, particularly in the Mystic Mts., at which Kino was apparently found by the village chief (curiously, it is indicated that Ayla was probably chief at around 5 yrs old, 10 at best). As that is where Chrono and Co appear, it might be that Kino is like Leah, a time orphan.

While a very interesting theory, it doesn't have much going for it. It requires a fairly large supposition (that humans traveled back in time to found humanity) and doesn't deliver on equally significant justification. With more proof, I think we have to discard this one for now.

Theory #2 is that the Sun Stone evolved humans in some fashion, thus replacing the Frozen Flame as the agent of evolutionary change. This is supported by the fact that the stone radiates a significant degree of power (and that power could probably cause genetic mutation), however the Sun Stone is never presented as anything but a power source (and importantly, a power source that is not present in 65,000,000). Thus this theory necessitates that attributes be applied to the stone that aren't indicated in the games and that the stone be present in a time period where it appears to be absent. Without further extrapolation, I think we have to discard this theory as well.

Theory #3 specifically addresses a single problem; IF the Frozen Flame is part of Lavos, and IF humans are almost totally "evolved" when Lavos lands, then the Frozen Flame must have gotten to earth before lavos (hence, it was sent into the past and evolved humans then). Even assuming that this were a possible explanation, it doesn't address another problem that is equally critical and makes this one slightly nonsensical; humans didn't evolve from 65,000,000 to 12000. Even if the Frozen Flame traveled into the past, there should have still been some form change during those many years. Indeed, Chronopolis humans should be even more unlike the image of -pre-frozen flame "humans" than the 65,000,000 humans are.

Theory #4 is more satisfying in that evolution does occur during this period; the Enlightened Ones evolve. However, this still indicates a very small change (magic power) and it doesn't address why the Earthbound did not evolve at all (thus returning to the problem of the Chronopolis scientists not conforming their theories to the reality that we the players see).

Theory #5 only addresses the magnitude of Theory #4; humans evolved into Mystics and the ones remaining as humans were actually comparatively un-evolved; therefore the Chronopolis scientists were assuming a degree of evolution happened that didn't actually happen to the given subject (but this should have been revealed by studying human DNA). This theory really only addresses part of #4 that was weak but it really has the same weaknesses.

And finally Theory #6 has the problem of assuming that Chronopolis scientists were fundamentally wrong; the Frozen Flame didn't help evolution, it prevented it. Unfortunately this is not very satisfying as it requires the source to be considered wrong and the theory to be considered correct. However, humans would still be considered evolutionarily aberrant like gets mentioned in Chrono Cross.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can get away from the fact that the Chronopolis scientists must have been fundamentally wrong in some way; the time scale of change must be off, or the degree of change, or some such.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: BROJ on March 28, 2008, 06:53:15 pm
[Reference]
Quote from: BROJ
First consider that Lavos is creature that can naturally bend/break the laws of time. Does that ability derive to every part of his body? (I am not sure this has been discussed in another topic or not...) If it does, that could possibly mean that the Frozen Flame could have traveled 235,000,000 years in the past on impact as a chaotic reaction to being broken off.
[/Reference]

Quote from: Thought
...and IF humans are almost totally "evolved" when Lavos lands
I don't remember even alluding to that... :wink:

Quote from: Thought
then the Frozen Flame must have gotten to earth before lavos (hence, it was sent into the past and evolved humans then).
On a 5-D(Time Error scale) it arrived *after* Lavos showed up.

Quote from: Thought
Even assuming that this were a possible explanation, it doesn't address another problem that is equally critical and makes this one slightly nonsensical; humans didn't evolve from 65,000,000 to 12000.
No they "evolved" from 300,000,000 B.C.(theorized Frozen Flame location in time; note the 235,000,000 years bit in my previous post.) to 65,000,000 B.C..

Quote from: Thought
Even if the Frozen Flame traveled into the past, there should have still been some form change during those many years. Indeed, Chronopolis humans should be even more unlike the image of -pre-frozen flame "humans" than the 65,000,000 humans are.
To elaborate on my theory: Human may not have been Homo Sapiens(to put it in earth terms), but rather they may have been closer to Cro Magnon; where the 'Earthbound' did not come into continuous contact with the Frozen Flame; evolving into the standard 1.0 modern humans; while the 'Enlightened' did; evolving into the 2.0 post-modern(Magic capable) humans. Because of the continued exposure the two human races became *so* different that they eventually separated themselves from each other; one race created Zeal, another became enslaved to the former.  Most of the enlightened died during the Zeal disaster; as a result 1.0 humans became dominant and the magic trait, from 2.0, possibly bred into the actual modern humans(of at least 600 A.D.+) became dormant; only to be awakened by Spekkio and those who created the 'Elements' in Chrono Cross.


Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 28, 2008, 07:13:44 pm
I don't remember even alluding to that... :wink:

That is one of the reasons I waited so long before reviving this thread; I knew that if I tried to represent other people's theories I'd get something wrong. But in this case, humans being "almost totally evolved" is more of a state of the game rather than what anyone alluded to (or are you referring to that entire part of the if/then statement?). Ayla is capable of abstract concepts, her tribe is in a Neolithic stage of progress, physical features are on par, and if I had to guess I'd say crossbreeding would be possible and successful (one of the definitions of a species is that two members of that species can have sex and produce a fertile child; if the child is sterile, then they aren't actually a single species). Other than speech patterns (and the series needs to be stabbed for the poor use of accents throughout it), there is nothing that indicates Ayla's people are less "human" than those in 2300 AD


No they "evolved" from 300,000,000 B.C.(theorized Frozen Flame location in time; note the 235,000,000 years bit in my previous post.) to 65,000,000 B.C..

Which is actually enough time for an entire separate Kingdom to be developed. But the point was, from 65,000,000 BC to 12,000 BC there still should have been some evolution. While your theory establishes why when Chrono and Co are in 65,000,000 the "humans" are "human," there should still be a very drastic change in form between 65,000,000 and 12,000.

Of course, a fundamental potential flaw with that criticism is that I am assuming evolution in the Chronoverse is comparable to evolution in the real world (to note, if I recall my anthropology courses correctly, the Order of Primates was becoming defined, in the Real World, around 65,000,000 BC)

Anywho, Iíll need to consider your various points more before making real comments regarding it (these were more of reactions).
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 28, 2008, 07:43:09 pm
What about this...

The Frozen Flame is a catalyst used by Lavos.  It is sent to a barren, lifeless world, albeit, it is sent to one that has the elements that COULD make up life.  So billions of years ago the Frozen Flame crashes into the planet and thus jumpstarts the creation process - starting with primordial ooze.  Then, when enough time has elapsed (billions of years), Lavos can show up and do what a Lavos does.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: BROJ on March 28, 2008, 07:43:54 pm
there is nothing that indicates Ayla's people are less "human" than those in 2300 AD
Sorry, you lost me there; '2300 A.D.'?

Edit: oh, I see; what I meant was after the Zeal disaster the Earthbound became the dominant race and the Enlightened were assimilated into the collective(human) bloodline.

Which is actually enough time for an entire separate Kingdom to be developed. But the point was, from 65,000,000 BC to 12,000 BC there still should have been some evolution. While your theory establishes why when Chrono and Co are in 65,000,000 the "humans" are "human," there should still be a very drastic change in form between 65,000,000 and 12,000.
Quote from: BROJ
Because of the continued exposure the two human races became *so* different that they eventually separated themselves from each other; one race created Zeal, another became enslaved to the former.

Of course, a fundamental potential flaw with that criticism is that I am assuming evolution in the Chronoverse is comparable to evolution in the real world (to note, if I recall my anthropology courses correctly, the Order of Primates was becoming defined, in the Real World, around 65,000,000 BC)
Actually that's when the dinosaurs went extinct. (source from Walking with Dinosaurs (http://www.docuwiki.net/index.php?title=Walking_with_Dinosaurs#Death_of_a_Dynasty_-_65.2C000.2C000_BC); Azala would be ashamed!  :lol:)

Anywho, Iíll need to consider your various points more before making real comments regarding it (these were more of reactions).
Very well...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 31, 2008, 01:26:43 pm
The Frozen Flame is a catalyst used by Lavos.  It is sent to a barren, lifeless world, albeit, it is sent to one that has the elements that COULD make up life.  So billions of years ago the Frozen Flame crashes into the planet and thus jumpstarts the creation process - starting with primordial ooze.  Then, when enough time has elapsed (billions of years), Lavos can show up and do what a Lavos does.

Boo, that is a nice theory but, unless I am misunderstanding you (and that is always a likely option), that would then imply that all life is a result of Lavos' influence, not just humans. I certainly got the impression from the games that the Frozen Flames influence was supposed to be limited to just humans.

Sorry, you lost me there; '2300 A.D.'?

Edit: oh, I see; what I meant was after the Zeal disaster the Earthbound became the dominant race and the Enlightened were assimilated into the collective(human) bloodline.

Yes, but what I meant is that between 65,000,000 BC and 2,300 AD there should have been a great degree of evolution taking place in the "human" genome. While there is a cultural distinction between the people in the Ioka village and the people in the Earthbound Village (or the people in the Arris Dome), there is no apparent genetic distinction (except for the apparent ability to use magic). Sans any theory, we should expect to see a significant degree of evolution between these two time periods (and indeed, between 65,000,000 and 12,000).

However, I misrepresented what you had meant, it seems, in that you are maintaining that 65,000,000 people are not humans (putting aside for the moment that Cro-Magnon's were still Homo Sapiens; same species, different sub-species, if even that). Sorry about that. Would you say that your theory, then, is similar to how I represented theory #4?

I suppose part of the disconnect might also be to what extent we see "magic" as being a significant step in evolution. That the Enlightened individuals and Earthbound are still capable of interbreeding indicates to me that magic is not a significant step; it alone cannot account for the entirety of the evolution that the Early Human Diagram (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Chronopolis_%28Early_Human_Diagram%29.html) in Chrono Cross suggests. At least, I am taking the Early Human Diagram as an indication of the degree of change, even if the specific instances of that change are not accurate.

Note, the Encyclopedia gets around this by assuming that the diagram is comparing an even-earlier-version of "humans" (or human ancestors) than is seen in Chrono Trigger to modern humans. This, however, makes the diagram utterly meaningless as it no longer illustrates Lavos' influence alone, but Lavos' and nature's, making it impossible to determine what is and is not the result of Lavos' influence.

Actually that's when the dinosaurs went extinct. (source from Walking with Dinosaurs (http://www.docuwiki.net/index.php?title=Walking_with_Dinosaurs#Death_of_a_Dynasty_-_65.2C000.2C000_BC); Azala would be ashamed!  :lol:)

That too. More than one thing happens at a time, however. Even in the real world, mammals were around when the dinosaurs went extinct. To illustrate, the Class Mamalia developed between the Permian Period and the Jurassic Period (thus, very roughly, between 275,000,000 and 175,000,000). So, as mentioned, if I am remembering my anthropology course correctly, the Order Primate was developing during 65,000,000. That is significant as this is too early for even Australopithecines (indeed, the split between old world and new world monkeys wouldn't have occurred yet!). If we compare real world evolution to Chronovolution (as the Early Human Diagram seems to imply that we should), Lavos' influence on humanity should be on par with changing proto-primates into Homo Sapien Sapiens. Yet the games also indicate that Ayla's people, who are at the best a subspecies (Homo Sapien Iokien?), were already present at the time period (thus indicating that real world evolution shouldn't be applied).

However, looking over the script again, perhaps the entire discussion of "Evolution in the Series" is a misguided one. To quote the Dragonian Record from CC (emphasis added):

Quote from: Dragonian Record
However, the timid '"apes"'
who had lived hidden in
the forests...
   
...came into contact with
the crimsom flame
that fell from the sky,
and evolved into '"humans."'

Or perhaps it was
not '"evolution,"'
but '"transformation."'


In this way, humans
increased in number
and filled the earth...

The fearsome '"progeny of Lavos"'
who, like their progenitor,
began to devour our mother planet.

Humans changed between 65,000,000. Perhaps, then, the implication is that if humans were the dominate species on the planet and if Lavos never fell, they'd have "evolved" (or changed) more along the lines of the Reptites, as beings close to the planet (which then implies that there might be a Apeopolis in an alternate dimension with a plasma lifeform called the Gorilla God).

Certainly, a hallmark of the Reptites and Mystics (two species presumably not tainted by Lavos) is their diversity. They aren't species that act independently but in tandem with other creatures (Imps, Gargoyles, Naga-Ette, bats, and all sorts of "monsters" on one hand and Reptites, Winged Apes, Volcanos, etc on the other). Indeed, we see the early humans possibly starting this behavior (through there use of the Dactyls). Even Zeal, having recently switched to Lavos' power, interacted with the Dreamspecies and the Nu, whereas after that point Humans are a solitary species, not interacting willingly with the other lifeforms of the planet.

And to quote one of the Chronopolis Ghosts:

Quote from: Ghost
Beginning with a cerebral
neocortex, which only
exists in higher mammals...
The anthropod brain enlarged
at an accelerating pace until it
became the human brain we know.
Could the reason for the
abnormal development of the
human brain be the biological
contamination caused by Lavos?

This could be taken as an indication that the human brain's size is abnormal (and it could also be taken as an indication that the Reptites are either mammals or do not have a neocortex), or it could be taken as an indication that the size is proper but the actual function of the various parts of the brain are flawed (the PVN, or the brain stem, or the hemispheres, etc). The difference intellectually between Ayla and Lucca, then, might not be in the nature of the size or potential of their brains but rather how they are hardwired.

And finally:

Quote from: prisoner, Terra Tower
In the eyes of the Dragons,
we humans are the foes...

A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...

We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...

In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring...

We humans are extraneous to this planet...

This last quote, then, is the troubling one that implies we should apply real world evolution to the series. I would propose, then, that it might be best to assume that this is the result of dragonian propaganda and the individual's own misconceptions and errors.

This isn't to say that we can't apply some degree of evolution to humans, but rather real world evolution doesn't fit and the stated period of that evolution are nonsensical so they can be discarded as sources of valid criticism.

We can still have that humans, under Lavos' influence, developed into Zealians (with the Earthbound being influenced by not to the same extent), which then re-converged into modern humans (a fine and commendable interpretation, if real-world evolution is not held to). Or even that humans evolved into Mystics as well (I do like that theory).

And even in discarding the restrictions of real world evolution, we are still conforming to many instances of "evolution" as presented in the game.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 31, 2008, 01:33:10 pm
actually, i was referring to ALL life being a byproduct of lavos or the frozen flame.  after all, lavos DID assimilate all the DNA on the planet to create his final form.

granted, i don't totally buy into the theory myself.  just analyzing!
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: BROJ on March 31, 2008, 01:49:15 pm
Quote from: Thought
However, I misrepresented what you had meant, it seems, in that you are maintaining that 65,000,000 people are not humans (putting aside for the moment that Cro-Magnon's were still Homo Sapiens; same species, different sub-species, if even that). Sorry about that. Would you say that your theory, then, is similar to how I represented theory #4?
Kinda, except the frozen flame is the cause of the evolutionary disconnect.

Quote from: Thought
While there is a cultural distinction between the people in the Ioka village and the people in the Earthbound Village (or the people in the Arris Dome), there is no apparent genetic distinction (except for the apparent ability to use magic). Sans any theory, we should expect to see a significant degree of evolution between these two time periods (and indeed, between 65,000,000 and 12,000).
There was an 'extra' village in the Pre-Release (http://ryoga.heypoorplayer.org/chrono/comp_time.php). Perhaps that was intended to be for the tribal ancestors of Zeal...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on March 31, 2008, 02:22:05 pm
actually, i was referring to ALL life being a byproduct of lavos or the frozen flame.  after all, lavos DID assimilate all the DNA on the planet to create his final form.

Ah, meaning the exact thing that I thought you were over looking. Very clever (and for some reason that now has given me the image of Lavos being a pokemon... must be the animated plant aspect of his nature).

But assimilation of all DNA doesn't imply creation of all DNA; though it would be in lines with panspermia. Yet if the Entity is analogous to the Gaia Hypothesis, then that would imply that even the Entity is created by Lavos (potentially interesting still, as the Entity is more like a cow that is raised for its meat).

There was an 'extra' village in the Pre-Release (http://ryoga.heypoorplayer.org/chrono/comp_time.php). Perhaps that was intended to be for the tribal ancestors of Zeal...

The Pre-Release is eternally fascinating, but if that other village was to be the ancestors of the Zealians then wouldn't that mean that there would be even less change in the years between 65,000,000 and 12,000 (and thus, even more at odds with expectations)?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 31, 2008, 10:32:02 pm
oooh!!!  but wouldn't THAT be interesting?!?!  the entity - the very planet itself - and all of it's various lifeforms, all created by lavos, rise up to fight their very creator.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on April 01, 2008, 05:33:58 am
But that would mean turning Lavos into 'god' basically, and then we'd just be working w/a BoF rip-off...>_>
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Anacalius on April 01, 2008, 02:32:16 pm
But that would mean turning Lavos into 'god' basically, and then we'd just be working w/a BoF rip-off...>_>

Yeah, I think we can all agree that lavos is not "God".
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on April 01, 2008, 02:59:12 pm
Well that sort of depends on how much dualism the designers wanted in the series. Lavos is a physical being, thus he could be equated with the dualistic concept of the material (which is evil in Dualism, and under some forms of gnostics sects is the same as God in the Torah), while the Entity is an abstract being with no apparent form, thus representing the spiritual (which is good and associated with Jesus in the Bible).

So in dualism, Lavos could be a "god."
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Anacalius on April 01, 2008, 03:21:03 pm
Well that sort of depends on how much dualism the designers wanted in the series. Lavos is a physical being, thus he could be equated with the dualistic concept of the material (which is evil in Dualism, and under some forms of gnostics sects is the same as God in the Torah), while the Entity is an abstract being with no apparent form, thus representing the spiritual (which is good and associated with Jesus in the Bible).

So in dualism, Lavos could be a "god."

Good point. Let's put it this way:
Lavos is not a "god" that created life in the Chronoverse. Did it have a large influence on life? I'd like to think so, but I think to say it's responsible for life is farfetched.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on April 01, 2008, 03:57:47 pm
Ah, but it could be responsible for trapping the spiritual in the material, if we run with the dualistic traits of the series. It didn't create life, it might have just imprissoned it in a form that we recognize.

...

And I don't really know what I am arguing this point as I don't think that it a valid extrapolation. On well.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: BROJ on April 01, 2008, 09:46:59 pm
There was an 'extra' village in the Pre-Release (http://ryoga.heypoorplayer.org/chrono/comp_time.php). Perhaps that was intended to be for the tribal ancestors of Zeal...

The Pre-Release is eternally fascinating, but if that other village was to be the ancestors of the Zealians then wouldn't that mean that there would be even less change in the years between 65,000,000 and 12,000 (and thus, even more at odds with expectations)?
Not necessarily; notice the small forest in the upper left of the village.
(http://ryoga.heypoorplayer.org/chrono/images/pre_village.png)
It's likely there is a Dactyl nest or something similar nearby; I mean how would they get there in the first place, the cliffs are certainly too high to be traveled by boat. It's also possible that this tribe could be an aggressive tribe trying to gather resources in far off lands through whatever means possible (notice the lack of resources in this isolated region compared with the rest of the world...); coupled with the influence of the frozen flame, this could *easily* drive evolution and technology as well as develop a sense of superiority in relation to the rest of the tribes, as it were. This is just speculation, of course. :wink:

Well that sort of depends on how much dualism the designers wanted in the series. Lavos is a physical being, thus he could be equated with the dualistic concept of the material (which is evil in Dualism, and under some forms of gnostics sects is the same as God in the Torah), while the Entity is an abstract being with no apparent form, thus representing the spiritual (which is good and associated with Jesus in the Bible).

So in dualism, Lavos could be a "god."
So could Google... (http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html)
But, then again they say "God is in the details."

Ah, but it could be responsible for trapping the spiritual in the material, if we run with the dualistic traits of the series. It didn't create life, it might have just imprissoned it in a form that we recognize.
Like Deus and the Zohar Modifier, in Xenogears?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Anacalius on April 02, 2008, 12:06:22 am
Actually, this is a kind of a dumb theory, maybe, but:

Recall in 65,000,000 B.C. -
There really is no "evil" in humans, or really the world. The closest thing I can think of that is "evil" is Kino stealing the Gate Key. The reptites don't qualify as "evil" in my book, they're just a species fighting for survival, same as the "apes". What I'm trying to say is, what if Lavos was responsible for the "evil" in the Chronoverse, kinda like we're talking about with him being a God, I guess he would play the role of the devil in this one. I get my theory here from the fact that no true evil is expressed in humans in 65,000,000 B.C. (at least that I can remember) and the first point in history where "evil" pops up is in 12,000 B.C. and the Zeal episode, which is completely fueled by Lavos.


Did any of that even make any sense? o.o;


Actually, come to think of it, this kinda reminds me of Chrono Testament. In the Bible, Satan is cast from the heavens (recall that Lavos comes from the heavens), forever tainting the Earth. I guess Azala would be the first noted "evil" in the world then, with her act of calling Lavos (Which may or may not have actually been triggered by her, she could have just thought she was summoning it when it was already coming, note the Red Star was in the sky already). So is the "Entity" the God figure and Lavos the devil figure? Hmmm.

Again, I'm not sure if any of this is even making sense. x.x
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: VincentGAU8 on April 02, 2008, 03:55:19 am
I don't think Azala was summoning Lavos..
Why would you summon something or someone that would eventually wipe out your whole race? Lavos
caused the ice age that wiped out the reptites, right.. :?
although your theory makes some sense to me, Lavos being the root of all evil in the Chronoverse..
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on April 02, 2008, 06:05:06 am
I don't think we're given enough information on the humans of 65,000,000 BC to say that there's no evil there at all...I mean, we're only really introduced to one main character, Ayla, who's a hero and very un-evil and her boy-toy, Kino, who's jealous, but certainly not evil...everyone else in the village just sorta has quips & we never really get to know their personalities enough to determine anything about their affinity for evil or not...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on April 02, 2008, 10:54:23 am
It's likely there is a Dactyl nest or something similar nearby; I mean how would they get there in the first place, the cliffs are certainly too high to be traveled by boat. It's also possible that this tribe could be an aggressive tribe trying to gather resources in far off lands through whatever means possible (notice the lack of resources in this isolated region compared with the rest of the world...); coupled with the influence of the frozen flame, this could *easily* drive evolution and technology as well as develop a sense of superiority in relation to the rest of the tribes, as it were. This is just speculation, of course. :wink:

But some very fun speculation.

Though, in all likelihood that village was just meant to be a stopping point on the way to or from the Singing Mountain (for whatever purpose that was... possibly that was where the party was dropped after the battle with Magus or some such), like how the other village was really just a stopping point on the way to the dactyl nest.

As for resources, that area might actually be rather fertile. Scale is, unfortunately, not exact. Chrono Cross, for example, takes place and a scale that would barely show up on the Chrono Trigger map (and the CT map may not, therefore, itself be the whole world). There could easily be resources we just aren't seeing.

Like Deus and the Zohar Modifier, in Xenogears?

Um... yes. Exactly like that...
<.<
>.>
Never played Xenogear, actually.

There really is no "evil" in humans, or really the world.

Well that really depends on how we want to define "evil" in Chrono Trigger. Is Lavos evil, for example, or just amoral? After all, he is just trying to survive. Is Magus evil? He uses foul means but desires to rid the earth of a blight (indeed, he fits as an anti-hero). Or in 1000 A.D., is there evil? If we don't see it there, does that mean it doesn't exist?

But there is also a question of if people had time to be evil in 65,000,000. Presumably, survival is hard; if you don't cooperate with the group, the group can't be bothered with you and your out on your own, where you probably can't make it on your own.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Anacalius on April 02, 2008, 12:32:34 pm

<.<
>.>
Never played Xenogear, actually.

That's too bad, Xenogears is my favorite RPG for the PS1 (And one of my favorites overall). If you ever get a chance, somehow, definitely give it a try.

Well that really depends on how we want to define "evil" in Chrono Trigger. Is Lavos evil, for example, or just amoral? After all, he is just trying to survive. Is Magus evil? He uses foul means but desires to rid the earth of a blight (indeed, he fits as an anti-hero). Or in 1000 A.D., is there evil? If we don't see it there, does that mean it doesn't exist?

But there is also a question of if people had time to be evil in 65,000,000. Presumably, survival is hard; if you don't cooperate with the group, the group can't be bothered with you and your out on your own, where you probably can't make it on your own.


As for Lavos being evil, that's what we're discussing, I don't really know, but under this theory, yes, he would be.
Magus would also be evil under this theory, since all humans would be tainted with some kind of evil after Lavos' influence.
True point on the 1000 A.D. and 65,000,000 B.C. statements. Yes, we don't "see" any signs of evil, that's what leaves it up to speculation on here.
As for this theory... I kinda gave up on it already. It was interesting to think about, but I highly doubt that it's what was in mind when the series was made.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on April 25, 2008, 12:30:35 pm
Just occured to me that we have in-game confirmation that the Mystics are a branch of humanity, specifically a magic using branch (and if magic, then presumably effected by Lavos and the frozen flame).

Spekkio, when you first meet him, says the following (with the retranslation next to it):

Quote from: Spekkio
You are strong of will...!                 /    Hm?
That's why the Old One let you       /    You guys have it.
through.                                       /    Power of the heart......
                                                   /    I get it, that's why the old man outside let you
                                                   /    in here.

Long before you were born...         /    Long before you guys were born......
...there was a kingdom where        /    There was a kingdom that prospered by magic.
magic flourished.                          /
Everyone there could use it!          /     Everyone in that world used magic.
                                       
But in time, people began to abuse /    But that country grew addicted to magical power
their powers. It got so bad that no  /    and was destroyed......
one was allowed to use magic         /    After that, people became unable to use magic.
except wizards.                             /    Except for the Demons anyway.

But you have it...determination, I   /    But you guys've got it. Strength of the heart.
mean!                                          /
Magic needs power of the heart.     /
It needs inner strength.                 /    Magic's the heart's strength, power.

I bolded the important part. After the fall of zeal, no one who had been able to use magic was subsequently able to use magic... except for Demons/Wizards (which we know as Mystics).

Mystics are counted among people, which is a label usually applied only to humans. This very strongly implies that mystics aught be counted among humans. I'd propose the label Homo Enigmus or Homo Sapien Engimus, depending on if we count Mystics as a separate species of the same order or a subspecies of Homo Sapiens.

Given there behavior, I'd actually argue that they may have been effected more by the frozen flame than the Enlightened Ones. For one, they seem to be a rather violent lot (achieving a peaceful coexistence only with the help of the Entity via Chrono and Co). They have a close association is abominations such as the undead. The Mystic creature Retinite is in some way responsible for Fiona's forest dying out (and Fiona's Forest itself is strongly tied to the Entity, so Retinite is playing a lavos-like role). And it is by manipulating the Mystics that Magus was able to attempt to contact Lavos (thereby, offering a circumstantial connection between the Mystic and Lavos).

So, then, from that we might be able to actually propose a model of "human" evolution

                                / -----------Mystics
Prehistoric Humans ---
                                \       /-----Enlightened Ones ----\
                                  \----                                        --------- Modern Humans
                                        \-----Earth Bound ----------/


Or possibly:

                                 /-----------Earth Bound -------------------------\
Prehistoric Humans ----                                                                  --------- Modern Humans
                                 \                           /---- Enlightened Ones ---/
                                   \----Magic Users---
                                                             \----- Mystics


Or even:

                                 /-----------Earth Bound ----\
Prehistoric Humans ----                                        --------- Modern Humans
                                 \                                     /
                                   \---Enlightened Ones-----
                                                             \
                                                               \----- Mystics


Personally, I am inclined towards model 2 and 3, as an earlier deviation might also reduce the significance of Spekkio's "except" comment.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on April 25, 2008, 07:01:53 pm
Hmmm...then could we use that to assume that Magus' physical transformation is less his own disguise and possibly more a result of his use of Magic & other such dark arts...? He was becoming a Mystic...?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on April 25, 2008, 08:19:55 pm
Actually...  that makes SOME sense...
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on April 25, 2008, 10:13:05 pm
Hmmm...then could we use that to assume that Magus' physical transformation is less his own disguise and possibly more a result of his use of Magic & other such dark arts...? He was becoming a Mystic...?

That would fit with Magus' description of his life

Quote from: Magus
Unghh...                                       /   ugugh......!
I won't...be beaten!                       /   I...... I won't be beaten......!

I survived the darkness to defeat   /   Lavos, I lived alone through the midst of
you, Lavos!                                  /   darkness to beat you!!

He could be refering to the dark ages, but that is a historical term so it is unlikely that Magus would have been using it in that context. Darkness probably better describes his living conditions. Not literal darkness, but dark magic and training, developed by the mystics (which are closer to Lavos, presumably, than most species). The taint that developed the Mystics into their form started to effect him.

From Lynx we have seen that power alone can caused genetic changes (Lynx being turned into a demi-human, Magus being turned into a mystic, etc).

Given the wide range of physical forms that mystics take, I wonder if their appearance is totally genetic. Given Sprigg, I'd say that the imps are the standard mystics with Gargoyles, Nagettes, and the sort being a bit less common, possibly themselves the result of the same darkness that Magus underwent (to varying degrees and varying effects depending on morphology).

I suppose to that evolution tree we could also add demi-humans somewhere. And I suspect Dwarves.

... actually, do we know anything about the state of humans in the Reptite dimension? The reptites won the war, that much is known, but even in the Keystone dimension not all reptites went extinct (the Green Ambler is such an example and the dinos in Giant's Claw imply that Reptites in general could survive). So then, might humans have survived in the Dragonian dimension as well, but as a scattered ruined race, possibly posing as an oppressed slave race? In pulling Dinopolis into the Keystone dimension, the Entity might have also brought along a few quasi humans from that dimension as well. Dwarves would seemingly be a good candidate for such a species. They are vaguely humanoid but closer to nature yet at the same time quite capable of human-level destruction. Fairies might be from the Reptite dimension as well, thus mirroring the keystone dimension's human/mystic dicotomy.

Here's a nicer chart of what I am imagining:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/HuginMunin/ChronoVolution.png)
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on April 26, 2008, 12:16:49 am
I think that model 2, given that particular quote, is the most likely to be correct.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: V_Translanka on April 26, 2008, 02:47:04 am
The Green Ambler could just be some kind of fair costume, though...I mean, everyone seems pretty surprised when they see the actual Reptites upon traveling to 65,000,000 BC, right?
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Anacalius on April 26, 2008, 03:33:59 pm
The Green Ambler could just be some kind of fair costume, though...I mean, everyone seems pretty surprised when they see the actual Reptites upon traveling to 65,000,000 BC, right?

The Green Ambler IS a costume, not a real reptite that magically survived it's species' extinction.
The Steel Runner IS a costume, not a guard on break.
G.I. Jogger IS a costume, not a soldier who snuck away and decided to play at the fair.
Catalack IS a cat, not a midget who runs on all 4s in a cat costume. =P
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on April 26, 2008, 04:10:11 pm
I had never actually thought much about the Green Ambler until now, and in conjunction with Translanka's post, I adamantly believe that Green Ambler is just a costume.  Although it's sprite resembles a Reptite, obviously the Green Ambler costume doesn't, for the heroes didn't recognize the Reptites when they first encountered them in 65 Million BC.

This isn't to say that Reptites may not have survived, seeing as how dinosaurs survived within the depths of the Giant's Claw (which I almost called "Gaea's Navel", phew).
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on April 26, 2008, 04:25:15 pm
True, true, the Green Ambler could just be a costume.

But then again, the heroes aren't very observant. Chrono can't tell its Marle when she is wearing a gown, the entire team can't recognize Magus when he's wearing a hood, and Magus doesn't recognize Gaspar when he's wearing a brown derby.

Anywho, I was just supposing that the Green Ambler and Giant's claw are examples of Dinosaurs being able to survive into the modern world. If such could survive the iceage that killed off the Reptites, then logically a few mammals (humans in particular) could survive the Human/Reptite War.

This, however, is mostly just to explain why two entirely new species appear in El Nido for no apparent reason. These species are humanoid but clearly not actually human. The Entity brought an entire metropolis into the Keystone Dimension from the Reptite world; it seems rather likely that a few non-dragonian creatures came along for the ride as well, which could help explain some of the downright nonsensical of new species suddenly popping up all over the place in El Nido.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Chrono'99 on June 23, 2008, 04:19:18 pm
I haven't read the topic yet but I'd like to point out that Fairies are not descended from humans:

Quote from: Fairy NPC at Water Dragon Isle
[Pink Fairy]
   We fairies are born from the morning
   dewdrops of an aged tree.
   The large tree that stands in the
   center is like our '"Fairy Godmother."'

This type of trees probably originates from the Reptite Dimension (or FATE?), which would explains why there's no Fairies in CT.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: BROJ on June 23, 2008, 07:48:57 pm
I haven't read the topic yet but I'd like to point out that Fairies are not descended from humans:

Quote from: Fairy NPC at Water Dragon Isle
[Pink Fairy]
   We fairies are born from the morning
   dewdrops of an aged tree.
   The large tree that stands in the
   center is like our '"Fairy Godmother."'

This type of trees probably originates from the Reptite Dimension (or FATE?), which would explains why there's no Fairies in CT.
Kinda sounds like the situation with the Mana Tree/Faeries in the Seiken Densetsu series.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Chrono'99 on June 23, 2008, 07:59:36 pm
Perhaps it's an influence from Nobuteru Yuuki... He designed the characters for both CC and SD3.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on June 24, 2008, 11:06:50 am
I haven't read the topic yet but I'd like to point out that Fairies are not descended from humans:

Quote from: Fairy NPC at Water Dragon Isle
[Pink Fairy]
   We fairies are born from the morning
   dewdrops of an aged tree.
   The large tree that stands in the
   center is like our '"Fairy Godmother."'

This type of trees probably originates from the Reptite Dimension (or FATE?), which would explains why there's no Fairies in CT.

Good point. But to counter that, the quote doesn't say anything about how fairies evolved, just how they are born (similarly, saying that humans pop out of their mother's bodies says nothing about how they evolved either). Now one might have an objection to plants (the trees that produce fairies) evolving from humans, as that crosses Kingdoms, but to be fair, one might also have an objection to plants producing animals, or animals dying to produce plants. I would be very interested to know if any of the creators were familiar with the Pequeninos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pequeninos) (which, like the fairies, are born from a plant and return to plant form on their death) or OSC's works in general.

In turn, it seems quite unlikely that dew alone produces the Fairies. They seem to be complex creatures; one needs more than just hydrogen and oxygen to create such a creature (a heavy infusion of carbon, for example, would go a long way to making this physically possible). This might be the result of some sort of magic, but the Fairies don't seem to posses any magic abilities or associations otherwise.

Of course, there is no reason to believe that the Pink Fairy was stating fact as opposed to myth. Humans might say that they are born when a stork drops a baby down a chimney, or when parents go to a cabbage patch and pick one out.

Still, I quite agree that in all likelihood the Fairies (and the Dwarves) came from the Dragonian Dimension.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 16, 2009, 12:14:00 am
Quote
In the eyes of the Dragons,
we humans are the foes...

A brain that has developed abnormally
to 3 times the original size in the
span of 3 million years...

We humans have evolved at an
enormous rate because of our
contact with Lavos's flame...

In a sense, mankind is Lavos's offspring...

We humans are extraneous to this planet...

Son of a bitch. I wasn't aware of this quote...

Ugh. There's no choice. Ayla doesn't look like an ape, and she exhibits emotion and higher intellectual function.

...Plot hole.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on January 26, 2009, 03:52:25 pm
Hmm... unless that quote is the result from a Dragonian perspective.

We don't know the difference between the Keystone Dimension and the Dragonian Dimension. If that quote is from a Dragonian perspective, then it might be that in that dimension humans didn't evolve as quickly as in the Keystone Dimension and it wasn't  until they came in contact with the Frozen Flame (if there was one in the Dragonian Dimension) that they then evolved. Might explain one of the reasons Dragonopolis was a counter-influence to Chronopolis; it was full of individuals already anti-human.

That would necessitate, however, that the Evolutionary notes in Chronopolis were gathered after the Time Crash and specifically from Dragonopolis.

Its a strech, but that is a pretty big plothole after all.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: ryu planeswalker on January 26, 2009, 11:27:30 pm
Well, if FATE took apart the dragon god, which was the pinnacle of Dragonian Tech its entirely possible FATE got its hands on a great deal of Dragonian Knowledge.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on January 30, 2009, 10:55:22 am
Hmm... it occurs to me that there is a human-like species in the game that does undergo radical evolution between 65,000,000 and 12,000. Specifically, mystics.

As discussed earlier in this thread, it seems like mystics are probably a branch of humanity. What if they are the ones that are being referred to? Around 3,000,000 BC humans began to change into mystics; that would be a substantial evolution.

Spekkio, at least, conflates Mystics with humans, so it is possible that the Dragonians would too.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: ryu planeswalker on January 30, 2009, 05:29:09 pm
Thats entirely possible, we do have to take what the dragonians say with a pinch of salt, If They are from a timeline in which Lavos never fell they really wouldn't have a whole load of knowledge on Lavos' effect on human evolution.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: ZeaLitY on January 31, 2009, 01:52:42 am
That could work as a stretch...but probably a stretch in a plot hole entry. The presentation of the Chronopolis brains is just too overt, especially considering that Mystics are a variety of radically different species with presumably different cephalic sizes.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Chrono'99 on February 03, 2009, 06:50:48 pm
That's really weird. Perhaps the humans of 65 million B.C. are really meant to be Homo habilis, but looked modern in CT due to creative licence. After all, Ayla shouldn't have curly blonde hair and be perfectly shaved in the first place (and should probably not be that white-skinned either). But that's still weird because CC does aknowledge the "modern" human appearance of Ayla through the drawing in Lucca's house, and there's also Leah...

Alternatively, but that's really farfetched, Lavos's crashing on the planet sends the Frozen Flame back in time rather than the normal time, and the primates get to evolve into humans before Crono even visits Prehistory. Perhaps the Red Rocks themselves come from Lavos and appeared on the planet before his arrival due to this. That way, the Dragonian and "stone face" quotes would be correct, but in a cause-and-consequence way of thinking only rather than chronological. As I said, that's farfetched.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Thought on February 04, 2009, 10:41:37 am
Interesting, but Masa, Mune, and Doreen (dream creatures allowed to exist due to the Dreamstone) seem to be very intune with the planet. Course, that could also be because they're Melchior's. That implies to me that the Dreamstone is not the Frozen Flame or of Lavos in general.

EDIT: Actually, that makes a lot of sense, Chrono'99

It is rather odd that Lavos would hit earth. Fire an object from one planet and the likelihood of randomly hitting another planet in a different solar system is astronomical. Just randomly sending spawn into the cosmos is an incredibly ineffective manner of propogating; more spawns would drift aimlessly through space, never to find a planet, than would ever actually latch onto something.

It might be that Lavos was specifically sent to earth, then. Perhaps the FF was actually a beacon, then, calling him here. It could have arrived 3 million years earlier, humans began to evolve, and Lavos was summoned.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Nifty on May 01, 2020, 09:37:31 am
Think I found the right place, I had a thought after noticing the entry for this.

A possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is that of humanity undergoing a temporary devolution during the interim period. As a result of struggling to survive mostly underground with very limited resources for aeons, humans may have gradually regressed to a more primitive state that offered them better-suited morphology. Their genetic potential would have remained dormant, to be quickly unlocked again (and then further refined) upon the contact with Frozen Flame. By the present day, any evidence of an earlier stage of life might've proven very difficult to uncover or accurately correlate.

There's not really more evidence for this than anything else, but it does have the upside of not needing to readjust any other major events along the timeline. It feels like it's not too far of a step from the tonal impression the game(s) give either, that whole period from 65 to at least 3 million BC is kind of a dead zone (which probably explains why the Sun Stone took so long to recharge as well).
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 01, 2020, 09:49:40 am
I'm not one to obsess over realism or plotholes and more than willing to chalk things up as "it's for the plot and needs suspension of belief" -- but this is definitely something that has sort of bothered me a bit in regards to humanity. We know that:

1.) Humans live as cave men in 65 million BC and are at war with the planet's other children, the Reptites.
2.) After Lavos falls, the Reptites are wiped out and humans are able to live on past the coming ice age.
3.) 3 million BC is humankind's first contact with the Frozen Flame. It is here that humans are first "evolved" with the ability to use magic, and it's hinted in CC that this is when Lavos first starts to directly guide human genetics to make the perfect species.

So what about the 62 million years or more in which humans existed?! This has bothered me from a plot standpoint.

So there are a few options in my headcanon:
1.) The humans of 65 million BC are not actually evolved from that time and place, they are displaced humans from some time in the future, stranded in prehistory. I would assume they eventually die out. The only evidence to even remotely support this theory is that stray dialogue hints that Kino was found in the mountains, it having hinted that he arrived through the time gate... but we also know that Kino is Marle's ancestor, so how would this work, exactly?
2.) The humans of 65 million BC are somehow pushed forward in time, skipping millions of years of history. I could see Lavos somehow doing this -- we know he has the ability to create pocket dimensions and space-time distortions, so perhaps this is the case? No evidence to support it, but a curious possibility.
3.) The human species simply lived for millions and millions of years without advancing. Like, at all.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Sheiken on May 02, 2020, 08:01:08 pm
I'm not one to obsess over realism or plotholes and more than willing to chalk things up as "it's for the plot and needs suspension of belief" -- but this is definitely something that has sort of bothered me a bit in regards to humanity. We know that:

1.) Humans live as cave men in 65 million BC and are at war with the planet's other children, the Reptites.
2.) After Lavos falls, the Reptites are wiped out and humans are able to live on past the coming ice age.
3.) 3 million BC is humankind's first contact with the Frozen Flame. It is here that humans are first "evolved" with the ability to use magic, and it's hinted in CC that this is when Lavos first starts to directly guide human genetics to make the perfect species.

So what about the 62 million years or more in which humans existed?! This has bothered me from a plot standpoint.

So there are a few options in my headcanon:
1.) The humans of 65 million BC are not actually evolved from that time and place, they are displaced humans from some time in the future, stranded in prehistory. I would assume they eventually die out. The only evidence to even remotely support this theory is that stray dialogue hints that Kino was found in the mountains, it having hinted that he arrived through the time gate... but we also know that Kino is Marle's ancestor, so how would this work, exactly?
2.) The humans of 65 million BC are somehow pushed forward in time, skipping millions of years of history. I could see Lavos somehow doing this -- we know he has the ability to create pocket dimensions and space-time distortions, so perhaps this is the case? No evidence to support it, but a curious possibility.
3.) The human species simply lived for millions and millions of years without advancing. Like, at all.

I have always leaned toward option 3 TBH.  Or if they did advance on their own, it was at an extremely slow pace.  Remember, if not for Lavos, the Reptites would have won the war as seen in the Dinopolis timeline where Lavos does not come to earth.  So by the natural order of things, humans were never meant to advance to begin with.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Razig on May 02, 2020, 11:38:27 pm
I'm also in favor of #3. The game seems to imply that the ice age caused by Lavos's descent lasted all the way to 12,000 BC. If that's true, the harsh conditions might have forced humans to live at a subsistence level, unable to advance because they had to spend all their energy just surviving. Once the Frozen Flame unlocked the potential for magic, survival would have become much easier, so humans now had time to specialize in different trades and this division of labor led to the founding of civilization.

That's my theory, anyway.
Title: Re: Evolution in the Series
Post by: Sheiken on May 03, 2020, 01:04:23 am
I'm also in favor of #3. The game seems to imply that the ice age caused by Lavos's descent lasted all the way to 12,000 BC. If that's true, the harsh conditions might have forced humans to live at a subsistence level, unable to advance because they had to spend all their energy just surviving. Once the Frozen Flame unlocked the potential for magic, survival would have become much easier, so humans now had time to specialize in different trades and this division of labor led to the founding of civilization.

That's my theory, anyway.

That is another major factor as well.  It is kind of hard for anything to naturally evolve in an ice age unless they thrive in that environment to begin with.