Chrono Compendium

Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: Trixter on February 15, 2008, 02:32:36 pm

Title: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 15, 2008, 02:32:36 pm
Ok I've seen people on this site say multiple times that the Chrono series abhors paradoxes.  So then how does one explain the Masamune in Chrono Trigger?

When Crono firsts finds the sword it's in its Masamune form.  But it doesn't change from the Ruby Knife into the Masamune until Crono goes back in the past and stabs the Mammon Machine with it.  I first thought that maybe Melchoir originally used the Ruby Knife on the Mammon Machine.  However, during the original timeline it shows the 3 gurus, Queen, Zeal, Schala, and Janus all next to the Mammon Machine and there's absolutely no indication that the Ruby Knife has been used.

So isn't this a never ending loop?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 15, 2008, 02:40:33 pm
Oh and by the way.  What exactly does Magus mean when you defeat him and he says:

Magus: W...what have you done to the Masamune...?

Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: FaustWolf on February 15, 2008, 02:44:00 pm
I've always wondered about the Red Knife graphic being used when Cyrus confronts the monsters in Guardia Forest with Glenn and that unknown lady in tow. Is it possible the Masamune somehow transformed during Cyrus' quest, obviating the need for anyone to have stabbed the Mammon Machine in the original time line?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on February 15, 2008, 02:57:40 pm
There's plenty of time in which Melchior could have used the Ruby Knife against the Mammon Machine prior to the Magus flashbacks...I mean, in the original timeline Melchior didn't get sent up to Mt. Woe, right? Since he wasn't fuct that way, he surely had more time to mess w/the Mammon Machine...

As for the graphic used w/Cyrus...Is that supposed to be the Masamune? I thought that they were going up to GET the Masamune and then right after Cyrus & Glenn got it Magus ambushed 'em...So then the graphic would just be some generic red-colored sword...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 15, 2008, 03:34:30 pm
Just because the Magus flashback is short doesn't guarantee that Melchoir used the Ruby Knife.  As I said in my first post, there is NO indication that the Mammon Machine had been harmed in the Magus flashback.  In fact there doesn't seem to be any animosity between the gurus and Queen Zeal at that point either.  If Melchoir had stabbed the Mammon Machine I would think Queen Zeal would have done something about it.  This leads me to believe that the Ruby Knife was not used at all in the original timeline.

And I forgot about the Cyrus/Frog King battle.  I think that Cyrus is using the Masamune at that point for two reasons.  One, Cyrus is well known throughout the Middle ages at that time for weilding the Masamune.  If he and Glenn had JUST stumbled upon it before Magus attacked them people wouldn't have that idea about Cyrus.  And two, the following lines,

GLENN: Aaah!

CYRUS: Beware Glenn!!

GLENN: Cyrus!
   The sword...
   The Masamune!

OZZIE: Gyah ha ha...Is THAT the best you can do?!  Without your sword, you're nothing!

sound to me like Ozzie or Magus knocked the Masamune from Cryus' hands.


So that means that in the original timeline the Ruby Knife somehow needed to be powered up between 590-600, but where?  And how?

I originally thought that the simple prescence of Masa and Mune in the Knife gave it the upgrade into the sword, but I don't think that is the case.  Because in the new timeline BEFORE Crono stabs the Mammon Machine with the Ruby Knife we hear,

MASA: Here we go Mune!
MUNE: Ready, big brother!

So that means that Masa and Mune are already present in the Ruby Knife.  So what other source of energy in the Middle Ages could have upgraded the Ruby Knife into the Masamune during the original timeline?  I say source of energy because of these line in the game.

Lucca: The Machine's energy
   changed the knife into a sword?

Robo: The knife used the Machine's
   power to become a sword?

And I'm still thinking all of this has something to do with Magus saying, "What have you done to the Masamune" when you defeat him.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on February 15, 2008, 06:40:11 pm
Logically, if nothing else, the "red knife" powered up into the "masamune" when melchior reforged it. Sure, the hilt and blade looked a lot like the masamune, but each part was also about half the size of Marle. Proportions don't seem to have been comparable.

However, I think the Compendium's official stance is more along the lines that in the original timeline, Melchior wasn't imprissoned and so he had time to complete it. In the altered timeline, he was imprissoned and so the red knife represents a work in progress, which the energy (and possibly material) from the Mammon Machine completed.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 15, 2008, 07:53:21 pm
Logically, if nothing else, the "red knife" powered up into the "masamune" when melchior reforged it. Sure, the hilt and blade looked a lot like the masamune, but each part was also about half the size of Marle. Proportions don't seem to have been comparable.

However, I think the Compendium's official stance is more along the lines that in the original timeline, Melchior wasn't imprissoned and so he had time to complete it. In the altered timeline, he was imprissoned and so the red knife represents a work in progress, which the energy (and possibly material) from the Mammon Machine completed.

^It's amazing how unlogical that whole statement was.

In a post above we talked about Cyrus using what appeared to be the Masamune in Ruby Knife form.  So in the original timeline if Melchoir had "completed" it as you said it should not look like the Ruby Knife in Cyrus' hands.  And I might not be a blacksmith, but I know enough to know that when a sword is made a person doesn't start off by making a knife and then build it into a sword.  Comprende?

And the 2 halves of the Masamune match up pretty good in my opinion.  The Dreamstone obviously would add a little length to the blade in order to reforge it.

If that really is the Compendium's official stance you all need to take a second look because that just doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Vehek on February 15, 2008, 08:50:38 pm
Where is it said that Cyrus is "well known throughout the Middle ages at that time for weilding the Masamune"?
I just checked the game script and couldn't find anything like that.

edit-
Oh and by the way.  What exactly does Magus mean when you defeat him and he says:
Magus: W...what have you done to the Masamune...?
Retranslation reveals that he was shocked at being beaten by Frog.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 15, 2008, 09:37:44 pm
He was the Legendary Hero everyone talked about.  And it's pretty obvious that the Legendary Hero wields the Masamune.  When Tata was labelled the Hero he tried to get his hands on the Masamune.  Frog said he was not the hero so he could not use the Masamune.

So it's pretty obvious that since Cyrus was the Legendary Hero he had possesion of the Masamune.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 15, 2008, 09:42:23 pm
Oh and I don't see how,...

Magus:  Y, you, the Grandleon, that far......

...is interpreted as Magus being in disbelief that Frog beat him.  Granted though it doesn't mean the same thing as "what have you done to the Masamune" either.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: ZeaLitY on February 15, 2008, 10:04:01 pm
He was killed presumably while trying to get the Masamune on that mission to also get the Hero Medal back from the Frog King, since the battle takes place right outside the Masamune's cave.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 15, 2008, 10:47:49 pm
He was killed presumably while trying to get the Masamune on that mission to also get the Hero Medal back from the Frog King, since the battle takes place right outside the Masamune's cave.

Umm your point???  Just because the battle took place there doesn't mean that Cyrus didn't already have possesion of the Masamune.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Vehek on February 16, 2008, 01:58:42 am
Quote from: Retranslation
Moreover, I want to try confirming the so-called legendary sword with my own eyes......
He wouldn't say something like this if he already had the Masamune. No one ever calls Cyrus the "legendary Hero".
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 16, 2008, 02:19:03 am
WHATEVER!  Who the hell cares about Cyrus anyways?  That wasn't even the intial question.  The question is how did the Ruby Knife power up into in the Masamune in the Lavos Timeline!  Melchoir clearly did not use the knife himself on the Mammon Machine.

And just as a side note, I find it sickening that people here always point to the Retranslation.  Who's to say one translation is any better than another.  Some words an phrases aren't so easy to convert between languages.  The retranslation doesn't have any more bearing than the original translations.  Give Woosley a little credit ya?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: dankun on February 16, 2008, 02:24:32 am
He was killed presumably while trying to get the Masamune on that mission to also get the Hero Medal back from the Frog King, since the battle takes place right outside the Masamune's cave.

What??
No he wasn't! He obviously did obtain it, as per what Masa & Mune say when you challange them:

Masa: They're tough!
Mune: Only Cyrus made it this far!

The real question is at what point in time did all of this really happened.
Yes, the battle does indeed takes place at that location. However, does this necessarily mean that he had just finished fighting Masa & Mune for it? Also, this is when the Masamune gets broken into two pieces, in that very fight against Magus:

GLENN: Cyrus!
   The sword...
   The Masamune!
OZZIE: Gyah ha ha...Is THAT the best you can do?!  Without your sword, you're nothing!

Ozzie's remark seems to indicate that Cyrus had indeed, already been the wielder of the sword for at least some time. As opposed to having just recently acquired it, a few moments ago.

As for the legend of the 'legendary hero', who 'supposedly' could be the only wielder of the Masamune and would save them from an overpowering evil, it had to have originated from somewhere, right? Or rather from someone, having used it for a considerable amount time in a very righteous, honorable and selfless way.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Vehek on February 16, 2008, 02:26:17 am
The only real difference between Woolsey's and the Re-translation for that line is that he calls it a "mythical sword".
Part of your argument that the Compendium theory about the Masamune's completion is wrong was that Cyrus had the Masamune in Ruby Knife form.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 16, 2008, 02:35:36 am
No I didn't originally say that, someone else in the thread did.  I just extrapolated on it if he really did.  And no one has proved one way or the other if Cyrus went straight from fighting Masa & Mune to fighting Ozzie and Magus or if there was a time period in between.  I'd personally say that there'd have to be a time period between.  Otherwise how would all these stories of a Hero weilding the Masamune be in affect.

And like I said, even if Cyrus didn't have the Ruby Knife the question still stands.  What powered up the Ruby Knife in the Lavos timeline?  It was clearly the Masamune, not the Ruby Knife, while in its broken form.  So that means that Cyrus was weilding the Masamune, not the Knife, when it was broken.  But in order for it to be the Masamune Crono would have had to go back in time and stab the Mammon Machine.  So you end up with this perpetual never ending loop.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on February 16, 2008, 07:33:48 am
Quote from: Trixster
And just as a side note, I find it sickening that people here always point to the Retranslation.  Who's to say one translation is any better than another.  Some words an phrases aren't so easy to convert between languages.  The retranslation doesn't have any more bearing than the original translations.  Give Woosley a little credit ya?

Ridiculous. Woosley himself has stated how much of CT had to be changed & taken out to fit the horrendous time restraints placed on him. Sure, I'll give  him credit, but the fact of the matter is that if you're going to theorize about the game's actual events, then use the ACTUAL EVENTS and not a misinterpreted version of it.

Quote from: thought
However, I think the Compendium's official stance is more along the lines that in the original timeline, Melchior wasn't imprissoned and so he had time to complete it. In the altered timeline, he was imprissoned and so the red knife represents a work in progress, which the energy (and possibly material) from the Mammon Machine completed.

Yeah, that makes the most sense...I don't recall anyone saying specifically that Cyrus has the Masamune...There's talk of a Hero. There's talk of a legendary sword. I don't recall if the two were intrinsically linked...or, if there was, wasn't it something fairly vague along the lines of "only the true hero can wield the legendary sword" and not "only Cyrus could ever wield the Masamune!"

Quote from: Ozzie
Gyah ha ha...Is THAT the best you can do?!  Without your sword, you're nothing!

Quote from: dankun
Ozzie's remark seems to indicate that Cyrus had indeed, already been the wielder of the sword for at least some time. As opposed to having just recently acquired it, a few moments ago.

I don't think that's true. Ozzie doesn't say the Masamune/Grandleon specifically. He just says sword. Basically he's saying that Cyrus's only hope in battle is if he has a weapon...

I don't see why any of them would be up there if they weren't trying to get the Masamune (or, in Magus' case to stop anyone from getting it to use against him). So I say Occam's Razor that for now.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 16, 2008, 10:49:19 am
Melchoir having time to finish the Masamune in the Lavos timeline DOES NOT make sense as you say.  When someone makes a sword they don't start off by making a knife.  A blacksmith never turns a knife into a sword.

And why would Ozzie be talking about some generic sword.  It's pretty obvious that he's talking about the Masamune.  For one thing the Masamune was said to be needed to fight Magus so why would Cyrus be fighting him without the Masamune.  And Masa & Mune clearly state, "Only Cyrus made it this far" indicating that he in fact got his hands on the Masamune.  And furthermore its implied that the Masamune broke during that battle between Cyrus and Magus.

And what I was saying about the Retranslation is this.  Who is to say that the people that retranlated it didn't also make mistakes.  Why all of a sudden are they superior to Woosley.  Even if Woosley admitted some mistakes that doesn't change the fact that there could be mistakes in the retranslation too.

Also I think its a good point to mention that even though it appears that the Cryus/Magus battle happens outside of the Masa&Mune cave we cannot say for sure that that's where it was.  In Chrono Cross when Radius and Garai find the Masamune it sure as heck looks like they found it at Divine Dragon Falls.  But it's stated elsewhere that they found it on the mainland.  So just because the topical graphics are the same doesn't necessarily mean anything.  The background could have just been reused to save time.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Luminaire85 on February 16, 2008, 12:41:45 pm
Melchoir having time to finish the Masamune in the Lavos timeline DOES NOT make sense as you say.  When someone makes a sword they don't start off by making a knife.  A blacksmith never turns a knife into a sword.

Perhaps not, but the Mammon Machine does turn knives into swords, apparently. I don't see any reason why the Mammon Machine couldn't have been used by Melchior to turn the Ruby Knife into the Masamune in the Lavos timeline as well. It just wasn't thrust into the machine like in the Keystone timelines.

And what I was saying about the Retranslation is this.  Who is to say that the people that retranlated it didn't also make mistakes.  Why all of a sudden are they superior to Woosley.  Even if Woosley admitted some mistakes that doesn't change the fact that there could be mistakes in the retranslation too.

There are two important differences between Woolsey's translation and KWhatzit's retranslation: censorship and space limitations. Woolsey had both to deal with, while KWhatzit had neither. It's not that KWhatzit's version is the hands-down absolutely 100% correct interpretation, nor is it that Woolsey's version is "bad". It is simply that the removal of these two limitations means that KWhatzit's version is inherently much closer to the original than Woolsey's version, and so, given a discrepancy between the two, KWhatzit's version should generally be preferred.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Vehek on February 16, 2008, 01:30:16 pm
I don't think that's true. Ozzie doesn't say the Masamune/Grandleon specifically. He just says sword. Basically he's saying that Cyrus's only hope in battle is if he has a weapon...
Actually, in the retranslation and some older translations, he says the "legendary sword" is broken.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on February 16, 2008, 01:33:04 pm
Melchoir having time to finish the Masamune in the Lavos timeline DOES NOT make sense as you say.  When someone makes a sword they don't start off by making a knife.  A blacksmith never turns a knife into a sword.

Fine, then he just had time to experiment w/the Mammon Machine. I mean, when you fight it w/the Masamune all it does is absorb more energy from it because they're both made of Dreamstone...So basically what I'm saying is that he initially makes the Knife, then charges it up ala the Pendant, and then in the original timeline's Ocean Palace Disaster the three gurus are there and before he has a chance to actually use the Masamune (which is engraved w/his name), Lavos fuct them all. I mean, perhaps he figured in the original timeline to use it against Lavos itself...

Quote
And why would Ozzie be talking about some generic sword.  It's pretty obvious that he's talking about the Masamune.

I just meant that Ozzie is basically just putting Cyrus down by saying that he's really nothing more than a sword, just another soldier, nothing special.

Quote
For one thing the Masamune was said to be needed to fight Magus so why would Cyrus be fighting him without the Masamune.  And Masa & Mune clearly state, "Only Cyrus made it this far" indicating that he in fact got his hands on the Masamune.  And furthermore its implied that the Masamune broke during that battle between Cyrus and Magus.

I didn't say that Cyrus DIDN'T have the Masamune, I was saying that he had only JUST gotten it before the fight w/Magus.

Quote
Also I think its a good point to mention that even though it appears that the Cryus/Magus battle happens outside of the Masa&Mune cave we cannot say for sure that that's where it was.  In Chrono Cross when Radius and Garai find the Masamune it sure as heck looks like they found it at Divine Dragon Falls.  But it's stated elsewhere that they found it on the mainland.  So just because the topical graphics are the same doesn't necessarily mean anything.  The background could have just been reused to save time.

I think that you should take what the game gives you as factual unless otherwise stated. As you say in your example, it's later stated that it's somewhere else. This isn't the case w/the Cyrus flashback, so we should assume it's where it is. Again, Occam's Razor.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Mauron on February 17, 2008, 01:33:27 am
Also I think its a good point to mention that even though it appears that the Cryus/Magus battle happens outside of the Masa&Mune cave we cannot say for sure that that's where it was.  In Chrono Cross when Radius and Garai find the Masamune it sure as heck looks like they found it at Divine Dragon Falls.  But it's stated elsewhere that they found it on the mainland.  So just because the topical graphics are the same doesn't necessarily mean anything.  The background could have just been reused to save time.
Also in Chrono Cross, Dario, Karsh, Solt, and Peppor are stated to have found it in Isle of the Damned.

Unless there's something more about the Masamune stated after entering Terra Tower (where I am now), I wonder if they found another sword which was thought to be the Masamune. The evil sword they found doesn't seem like the one in Chrono Trigger.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on February 17, 2008, 06:34:14 am
Quote from: Melchior/Bosch
A sword may become either a means of taking a life or a means of saving a life, depending how the user's heart is. Be sure not to misuse it (the Grandleon/Masamune).

He says that after the reforging of the sword in CT.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on February 18, 2008, 06:29:42 pm
Melchoir having time to finish the Masamune in the Lavos timeline DOES NOT make sense as you say.  When someone makes a sword they don't start off by making a knife.  A blacksmith never turns a knife into a sword.

Right, and the Mammon Machine turning the Ruby Knife into the Masamune makes perfect sense. Because, you know, blacksmiths traditionally jab metal into large, immortality granting, power sources to make swords. Or something like that.

...Maybe the Masamune is really the Sword of Thundera.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on February 18, 2008, 07:22:54 pm
...Maybe the Masamune is really the Sword of Thundera.

Thundercats! Go!
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: FaustWolf on February 18, 2008, 11:02:36 pm
Chrono...Chrono...Chrono-fans! Hooooo!

(http://www.amosdelretro.com.ar/Thundercats/Thundercats_post01.JPG)
Chrono-fans are -- on the move. Chrono-fans are loose!
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on February 18, 2008, 11:22:18 pm
Chrono...Chrono...Chrono-fans! Hooooo!

(http://www.amosdelretro.com.ar/Thundercats/Thundercats_post01.JPG)
Chrono-fans are -- on the move. Chrono-fans are loose!

Faustwolf, truly sight beyond sight...  :lol:
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on February 19, 2008, 12:08:12 am
C'mon guys, this is the Chrono Series Analysis forum...

THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER...ugh, sick of it! (http://www.animeremix.org/download/AR-Thundercats-ThunderThunderThunderThunderCats.mp3)
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on February 19, 2008, 12:44:15 am
C'mon guys, this is the Chrono Series Analysis forum...

THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER THUNDER...ugh, sick of it! (http://www.animeremix.org/download/AR-Thundercats-ThunderThunderThunderThunderCats.mp3)

Sorry, couldn't resist  :D

I couldn't access the mp3 you linked, it doesn't seem to exist. :( (e.g. 404)
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Trixter on February 19, 2008, 01:59:27 am
Thundercats sucked.  What a 3rd rate cartoon...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on February 19, 2008, 11:54:41 am
Thundercats sucked.  What a 3rd rate cartoon...

Obviously you've never seen Thundar the Barbarian. THAT was a 3rd rate cartoon. Thundercats mostly just suffered from one, fairly talent-less, voice actor doing every single female voice (compared to other cartoons of that era). Not only that, she did most of those female voices while impersonating William Shatner

But obviously, if the Masamune can transform from a knife to a sword by "powering up," then it has disturbingly similar traits to the Sword of Thundera. Like the Sword of Thundera, the masamune provides one with "sight beyond sight" in the form of reflecting the inner character of the wielder (and revealing where the entrance to Magus' castle is). Much of the story revolves around the Masamune, just as much of Thundercats revolved around the Sword of Thundera. Liono was an anthropomorph, Frog was an anthropomorph. Magus controlled dark magic, Mum-Ra controlled dark magic.

Masato Kato is clearly a Thundercats fan.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on February 21, 2008, 08:18:13 pm
Thundercats sucked.  What a 3rd rate cartoon...

Obviously you've never seen Thundar the Barbarian. THAT was a 3rd rate cartoon. Thundercats mostly just suffered from one, fairly talent-less, voice actor doing every single female voice (compared to other cartoons of that era). Not only that, she did most of those female voices while impersonating William Shatner

But obviously, if the Masamune can transform from a knife to a sword by "powering up," then it has disturbingly similar traits to the Sword of Thundera. Like the Sword of Thundera, the masamune provides one with "sight beyond sight" in the form of reflecting the inner character of the wielder (and revealing where the entrance to Magus' castle is). Much of the story revolves around the Masamune, just as much of Thundercats revolved around the Sword of Thundera. Liono was an anthropomorph, Frog was an anthropomorph. Magus controlled dark magic, Mum-Ra controlled dark magic.

Masato Kato is clearly a Thundercats fan.

It is *oddly* similar... hmmm...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Dombattag on March 14, 2008, 03:47:49 pm
you  may be on to something about the similarites...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: placidchap on March 14, 2008, 04:43:14 pm
Mum-Ra and his pooch are bad ass.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on March 14, 2008, 05:34:34 pm
Mum-Ra and his pooch? Don't you mean "Lavos and his bits" ;)
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 14, 2008, 05:42:08 pm
now that just sounds dirty, thought.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on March 14, 2008, 06:00:33 pm
Yeah, Chrono Trigger is full of sexual references, if you are looking for them. Lavos with his bits is obviously male, the Entity is obviously female (aka, mother earth). Just ponder that physical relationship for a moment.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 14, 2008, 06:05:11 pm
so lavos would be a rapist...?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on March 14, 2008, 06:21:46 pm
so lavos would be a rapist...?
In more than one sense, at least... :roll:
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 14, 2008, 06:34:37 pm
boy...  THATS awkward.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on March 14, 2008, 06:37:19 pm
And as humans were the result of this *ahem* union, that would mean they're the unwanted bastard child.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on March 14, 2008, 06:39:41 pm
And as humans were the result of this *ahem* union, that would mean they're the unwanted bastard child.
WOW!  :shock: I never thought of it *that* way...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: maggiekarp on March 14, 2008, 06:40:14 pm
Well, that does explain why the Entity gets the gang into all that crap and then lets them be killed off in the sequel.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 14, 2008, 06:46:48 pm
SPECULATION!!!

(except for Lucca and anyone in the past, of course...but you can't blame teh Entity for not making Ayla & Glenn immortal!)
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on March 14, 2008, 06:54:21 pm
SPECULATION!!!

(except for Lucca and anyone in the past, of course...but you can't blame teh Entity for not making Ayla & Glenn immortal!)
Actually it's probably more likely Belthazar was the man behind the proverbial curtain. But still, all we can do is speculate, anyways, right? :wink:
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on March 14, 2008, 06:58:10 pm
Someone know what is the name of the Mastermune in Chrono Cross Japanese Ver. ?????
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 14, 2008, 07:11:48 pm
Grand Dream (liek teh Triple Tech?!? lol)...odd that Leon's name is just completely left out, eh?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on March 14, 2008, 07:15:30 pm
Thanks, mate.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 14, 2008, 07:20:32 pm
Yar, I was surprised that it wasn't mentioned in the Encyclopedia...guess the Chrono Cross stuff isn't completed yet...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on March 14, 2008, 07:43:09 pm
Grand Dream (liek teh Triple Tech?!? lol)...odd that Leon's name is just completely left out, eh?
Oh well, Gran's(Masa's) got left out in the English version, so it evens out I guess...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 15, 2008, 03:15:29 am
Yeah, but Doreen's name also got left out of the English one...and Masa just got his second A replaced with a TER in it...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on March 15, 2008, 02:50:13 pm
Yeah, but Doreen's name also got left out of the English one...and Masa just got his second A replaced with a TER in it...
We can't all be winners, I guess...  :(
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: maggiekarp on March 15, 2008, 03:18:06 pm
You just aren't happy unless it's MaDoMuSaReNeen sword, are you?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on March 16, 2008, 08:39:49 pm
Domasamunereem
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: VincentGAU8 on March 17, 2008, 04:36:24 am
Domasamunereem

yeah, i like that one  :)
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 17, 2008, 04:56:05 pm
Doreen + Masa + Mune = Dormasamuneen.

But in 10 character limits it would be...

Drmasmunen.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 17, 2008, 08:46:41 pm
Mamaresu! V_V

Grandleon Dream Sword?

I hate what this thread's become btw.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 17, 2008, 10:21:35 pm
and yet you contribute to the whimsical nature of the thread...

but...  i hate to admit it...  but you're sort of right.

maybe a little.

remember when teh ruby knife became the masamune?  that was rad.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on March 18, 2008, 12:08:00 am
Does the Einhlanzer has the same name in japanese??
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: placidchap on March 25, 2008, 01:27:10 pm
I hate what this thread's become btw.

Agreed.  Let's get back on track and talk about Mumm-Ra, the Ever-Living, traveling through the multiverse (cross-refrencing another thread comment by Boo), finds the Masamune, but thought it was the Sword of Plun-Darr, touched it but then realized it was not what he was looking for so he left.  Which explains the evil Masamune.  Anyone...? No?  hmm.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 25, 2008, 07:41:55 pm
i mean, mumm-ra (or even mutt-ra) could've done it in the "dogs of war" arc that occurred after the cartoon ended (this was in the comics).  i mean, he is a super-undead-warlock, so it's permissible that he could create a gateway to other realities.

i think this was kato's thoughts all along and knew we would make the connection.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: placidchap on March 25, 2008, 08:00:19 pm
And the pretty bow on top, is that Kato has a name right next to Lion-o, Panthero and Lynx-O.  The evidence was there all along.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Radical_Dreamer on March 25, 2008, 11:06:41 pm
I hate what this thread's become btw.

Agreed.  Let's get back on track and talk about Mumm-Ra, the Ever-Living, traveling through the multiverse (cross-refrencing another thread comment by Boo), finds the Masamune, but thought it was the Sword of Plun-Darr, touched it but then realized it was not what he was looking for so he left.  Which explains the evil Masamune.  Anyone...? No?  hmm.

Let's get back on track and talk about the Masamune. This is the Analysis forum, after all.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 25, 2008, 11:13:32 pm
i was wondering when the forum police would come around!


EDIT FROM THE FORUM POLICE: This isn't back on track! Try & keep your general wonderings to a more sociable forum section. The analysis forums are for just that: analysis.

Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on March 26, 2008, 10:44:40 am
Analyzing things in the Analysis forum? Well, that is highly unorthodox, but if you insist...

Hmm... So, if I am recalling correctly, in Radical Dreamers the Acacia Dragoons were stationed at Viper Manor, which over saw Gerzbuehle, which as best as anyone can figure out (especially given that Kato seems to have conceived of these locations without an eye towards Chrono Continuity) around the Denadoro Mts. Now we already know that in Chrono Cross Kato drew on Radical Dreamers for some themes, characters, and locations. Therefore, we might find some significance in the closeness of the Denadoro Mts and Radical Dreamer's Viper Manor.

That is, at the end of Chrono Trigger Guardia was overthrown and the Masamune was placed back at the Denadoro Mts, which possibly then indicates that the Masamune was placed at Denadoro specifically for the Acacia Dragoons to find. By Radius and Garai finding it, the Masamune was then transported to El Nido, where it played an important role in the events of Chrono Cross.

Therefore, given its significance to Chrono Cross, it is well within reason to suppose that the Masamune was meant to be placed at Denadoro, and the Acacia Dragoons were meant to find it, and they were meant to take it to El Nido. Which, in turn, then means that the Masamune was meant to be corrupted. Additionally, given how convoluted Project Kid was, it is quite possible that Belthasar was the one who orchestrated the Masamune's return to the Denadoro Mts and its corruption. This is supported by the oddity that the Masamune survived corruption for over 12,600 years; why would Masa and Mune just happen to fall asleep then and allow it to be corrupted? And if we assume that an external force was needed to cause this occurrence, who better to corrupt the weapon than an individual who is on par with the weapon's creator?

Further speculation: the names "Denadora" and "Doreen" are vaguely similar. Coincidence? I think so. But I could be wrong.

Yet more speculation: the Masamune and the Einlanzer have a relationship similar to that of Masamune and Muramasa (the people, not the "weapons") and their infamous (and probably mythical) competition. Except in that story, Masamune's blade was the "holy" one, while Muramasa's blade was evil and bloodthirsty. Now, the Chrono Trigger Masamune is the result of an odd English translation, but the similarities between the swords and the myth still seems apt.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 26, 2008, 01:26:35 pm
Yeah, I've always sided w/the idea that the Masamune was intentionally placed in Denadoro Mts for the express purpose of the events that followed...though I used to think that it was Lynx that perpetrated said placement...*shrugs* Like I've said before, CC wasn't my analysis strong-point *heh heh*

But, also, I don't think it's definate that we can say that Guardia was completely 'overthrown'...I mean, I don't think we're told enough to verify this anyways.

Doreen is actually closer in sound to Dorino, isn't it? The town right next to the Denadoro Mountains? Well, anyways, I think it's mostly irrelevant since her name in Japanese is simply Dream. Nice enough idea though.

The Einlanzer's been said to be made specifically to combat the evil of the Masamune though, right?...Which makes me wonder what it's made of & why the Dragonians made it in the first place...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on March 26, 2008, 02:02:22 pm
Wasn't the Masamune found before Lynx was under the control of FATE though?

Regardless, it is indeed a very unusual event. I don't think we can take its placement there or its corruption as mere happenstance.

And aye, I'd agree that it isn't definate that Guardia was completely overthrown. But that brings in another question; we know that Porre's rise to power was the result of an out-of-time influence. If Belthasar wanted to get the Masamune, place it at Denadoro, and corrupt it, he could well be that influence then.

Hmm... was Dorino still "Dorino" in the Japanese version? It wasn't Dreemo or anything like that? After all, it is a city that disappears like a dream upon waking ;)

But was the Einlanzer made to combat the evil of the Masamune? I thought the dragonians were extinct by 1000 (and thus, certainly extinct before the Masamune was corrupted... unless this was also orchestrated by Belthasar and he had the weapon forged knowing that the Masamune would then become corrupted).

As for what it is made of, I like to think it is the exact same piece of dreamstone (but from a different dimension) as the masamune. Of course, there is absolutely no evidence, or hints of evidence, to indicate such.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: ZealKnight on March 26, 2008, 05:38:39 pm
Quote
The Einlanzer's been said to be made specifically to combat the evil of the Masamune though, right?...Which makes me wonder what it's made of & why the Dragonians made it in the first place...

I don't think it was made to combat the Masamune, in fact i think it was the Masamune of the dragonians. You know because they made it in the time line without Lavos.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 26, 2008, 06:48:02 pm
yeah, i'm in agreement with zeal knight.  i think the einlanzer is just that universe's version of the masamune.

and in reference to the masamune surviving corruption for 12,600 or so years...  that may not be true.  after all, thats a lot of history we DON'T know...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on March 27, 2008, 11:26:44 am
True, the sword could have been corrupted before, but then that begs the question of why it just happened to be pure when Chrono and Co found it.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: placidchap on March 27, 2008, 01:56:08 pm
True, the sword could have been corrupted before, but then that begs the question of why it just happened to be pure when Chrono and Co found it.

I don't think it begs much of a question...Chance is most probable.  Things don't always have to have a purpose.  At least, that is what I think.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 27, 2008, 02:02:17 pm
Quote from: Thought
Wasn't the Masamune found before Lynx was under the control of FATE though?

Yeah, there's actually more that makes it so that Lynx couldn't have been the one to do it at that time...that's why I said I used to think that...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on March 27, 2008, 03:08:15 pm
I don't think it begs much of a question...Chance is most probable.  Things don't always have to have a purpose.  At least, that is what I think.

Well I suppose that depends on how we view human nature (and the nature of the Masamune's corruption). Let us assume there are three types of people that could potentially hold the masamune: A good person, a neutral person, and an evil person (this is not taking into account the sort of individual who could pass masa&mune's tests). Therefore, at least there is a 33% chance that the sword could be purified, corrupted, or remain unchanged whenever the sword is found. However, as displayed in Chrono Cross, the sword is quite capable of corrupting what we might term as "relatively good" people. Therefore, there is a less than 33% chance that the sword could be purified at any given instance. Thus we can claim that at any given instance, it is more likely for the masamune to be corrupted than to not be.

Keep in mind that throughout the series we see the sword being held by 4 (or 5) different individuals: Cyrus, who couldn’t use its full power apparently, Frog who had to master himself before he could do so, Radius who was corrupted, and Dario who was corrupted. Therefore, from that we could conclude that there is only a 25% chance that the sword could be purified (if we assume Frog had the strength of character to do so).

Events that go against probability don't necessitate an active consciousness behind them; however they are suspect of such a consciousness.

And if we assume that corruption and purification are dependent on outside influences (such as Doreen), then we are already taking into consideration a degree of consciousness and then it is deliberate if the sword is corrupted or purified.

Statistically speaking, then, it is more likely that there was a conscious agent behind the corruption of the masamune than that it was by happenstance.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: ZealKnight on March 27, 2008, 07:26:52 pm
I don't know much but I'm going to side with the compendium's theory and say Dalton did corrupted it because The only thing missing in that theory is evidence other than that it seems very possible.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 27, 2008, 07:42:28 pm
Dalton? wtf?

Anyways...I don't know if it necessarily has to be "corrupted" by each individual person. Especially since we don't see any reason to believe that Dario would be someone who would corrupt the blade. I think that either Garai's spirit (or w/e you wanna call it) or whoever before him that corrupted it did so but that it takes a certain amount of a good spirit to "purify" it again. Dario's spirit just wasn't enough to counter the evil corruption from Garai's spirit or whatever whoever had it before him did to it...

Then again, since the blade is supposed to reflect the wielder's heart, perhaps it wasn't necessarily "corrupted", so much as it's focus was shifted so that instead of empowering a pure heart, it tainted anyone w/doubt, hate, anger, etc. in their heart. Maybe all it takes for this to happen is if Masa & Mune are in some kind of hibernation...since Glenn was supposedly the last one to really wield the Masamune & the necessity of the Masamune (the destruction of Lavos) was supposedly accomplished, I think it's fair to think Masa & Mune would just take a break, right? :P
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 27, 2008, 08:40:24 pm
translanka, i could NEVER EVER EVER EVER agree with you more.

i think what translanka described (and quite well, mind you) is the true NATURE of the blade.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on March 27, 2008, 10:58:59 pm
Dorino is the japanese pronunciation of Dream...
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on March 28, 2008, 12:35:08 am
whoa whoa whoa.  thats news to me.  are you SUUURE?  if that is the case...  we're on to something.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on March 28, 2008, 05:02:51 am
That doesn't sound right...I mean, not even taking into account the fact that I'm not entirely sure MagilsugaM knows the ENGLISH pronunciation of dream...:/
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on March 28, 2008, 06:47:19 am
Hey I've been studying English for more than 8 years.
And MAYBE  Dorino is the japanese pronunciation of Dream. If someone could check this out.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on March 28, 2008, 10:11:06 am
I don't know much but I'm going to side with the compendium's theory and say Dalton did corrupted it because The only thing missing in that theory is evidence other than that it seems very possible.

I thought the compendium's stance was that currently it is unknowable who or what corrupted the masamune (and why, if there is a why). While Dalton is a possibility, such a theory was largely rejected because he seemingly has no way to get to 1000 AD (his "gates" being spatial, not temporal, in nature). Indeed, what use would Dalton even have of corrupting the sword?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on April 23, 2008, 04:36:02 am
I done my research Doreen is the japanese pronunciation of DReam
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on April 23, 2008, 09:18:34 am
interesting...  where'd you learn that?

(not doubting you, just find a reference for the compendium as a whole.)
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on April 23, 2008, 10:14:49 am
Excellent (at least the translation wasn't as off with Doreen's name as, say, Masa and Munes... though admittedly, I like those better than Gran and Leon).

I still wonder if there might have been a Dorino/Doreen connection.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on April 24, 2008, 02:59:18 am
Actually Gran and Leon are spanish words Gran means Big and Leon is Lion...
I don't understand the conection  :lol:
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Lakonthegreat on April 29, 2008, 04:06:31 am
I would think, considering the way Dario fights, and considering his black elemental type, that something far greater than Garai's hopes and dreams corrupted the Masamune. I mean we're talking about one of the most powerful artifacts in both major games here. I'm thinking there had to be some outside influence in the corruption of the Masamune. It is even possible that when Frog died, the sword was sealed away for many years, allowing Masa and Mune to fall asleep. They could have been restraining the evil created in the sword when it was forged within the Mammon Machine, and when they fell asleep, it manifested itself as another controlling entity for the sword. Thus the different shape, color, and capabilities it has.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: BROJ on April 29, 2008, 12:26:28 pm
Actually Gran and Leon are spanish words Gran means Big and Leon is Lion...
I don't understand the conection  :lol:
It's quite obvious... The sword is rather large and it grows in power proportional to the user's conviction and power, which, notably, a lion often symbolizes. As well, one needs to best the blade in order for it to respect the user's commands, or if defeated, the blade will devour the user in mind or body.

I would think, considering the way Dario fights, and considering his black elemental type, that something far greater than Garai's hopes and dreams corrupted the Masamune. I mean we're talking about one of the most powerful artifacts in both major games here. I'm thinking there had to be some outside influence in the corruption of the Masamune. It is even possible that when Frog died, the sword was sealed away for many years, allowing Masa and Mune to fall asleep. They could have been restraining the evil created in the sword when it was forged within the Mammon Machine, and when they fell asleep, it manifested itself as another controlling entity for the sword. Thus the different shape, color, and capabilities it has.
I always thought that the Masamune always symbolized pure will and, like Grobyc, only obeys the master that can control the power and fury that it wields regardless of it's aura. However, if it is evil, it is likely to corrupt the minds of those with lesser willpower, rather than simply killing upon defeat. Either way it technically devours the candidate upon defeat in some way or another.(Again the lion bit...)
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on April 29, 2008, 01:48:35 pm
Quote
I always thought that the Masamune always symbolized pure will and, like Grobyc, only obeys the master that can control the power and fury that it wields regardless of it's aura. However, if it is evil, it is likely to corrupt the minds of those with lesser willpower, rather than simply killing upon defeat. Either way it technically devours the candidate upon defeat in some way or another.(Again the lion bit...)

Amen!
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Peaceman on April 30, 2008, 07:51:15 am
Quote
I done my research Doreen is the japanese pronunciation of DReam

whoa whoa whoa hold your horses.  I'm half Japanese myself, and that is NOT the pronunciation of Dream.  It's more like Doreemu...

Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: VincentGAU8 on April 30, 2008, 08:27:45 am
But, arent most u's in Japanese spelling are pronounced silent..? :? like Sasuke being pronounced as Sas-ke?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but if that was the case, then, Doreen would not be much different from Doreem, right?  :?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on April 30, 2008, 03:15:06 pm
Quote
It's more like Doreemu...

Either way, Doreemu and Doreen are MIGHTY similar...

I officially believe that they're connected now.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Peaceman on April 30, 2008, 08:14:53 pm
But, arent most u's in Japanese spelling are pronounced silent..? :? like Sasuke being pronounced as Sas-ke?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but if that was the case, then, Doreen would not be much different from Doreem, right?  :?

There are some exceptions like that, especially with "su" but for the most part the "u" is pronounced.  But then again...


Either way, Doreemu and Doreen are MIGHTY similar...

I officially believe that they're connected now.

It's compelling.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: VincentGAU8 on April 30, 2008, 08:57:42 pm
But, arent most u's in Japanese spelling are pronounced silent..? :? like Sasuke being pronounced as Sas-ke?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but if that was the case, then, Doreen would not be much different from Doreem, right?  :?

There are some exceptions like that, especially with "su" but for the most part the "u" is pronounced.  But then again...


Either way, Doreemu and Doreen are MIGHTY similar...

I officially believe that they're connected now.

It's compelling.

Thanks for enlightening me... :)
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: MagilsugaM on May 02, 2008, 08:44:44 am
Quote
I done my research Doreen is the japanese pronunciation of DReam

whoa whoa whoa hold your horses.  I'm half Japanese myself, and that is NOT the pronunciation of Dream.  It's more like Doreemu...


Yeah I know but that was the aim of his name if you put doreemu sounds bad, rigth?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: V_Translanka on May 02, 2008, 09:38:15 am
Alright, what was the point of whoever pointing out that Doreen & Dream are similar? What? Woosley fuct it up? Who cares...? Why does the pronunciation of the two words matter, again?
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Thought on May 02, 2008, 10:43:00 am
If I am recalling correctly, the importance of Dream and Doreen being similar is in turn the similarity between Dorino and Doreen. Given Masa and Mune's location at the time, it would be interesting if we can establish a Doreen/Dorino connection.
Title: Re: About the Masamune.
Post by: Boo the Gentleman Caller on May 02, 2008, 11:36:31 am
Plus, any connection between the word 'Dream' and 'Doreen' create a literal link between Doreen and the "cosmic", dream-like existence of Masa, Mune, and obviously Doreen.