Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: placidchap on January 16, 2008, 11:12:08 am
-
Hi,
I had a thought yesterday that prompted me from being a lurker, to a registrant...
edit
I am withdrawing my theory for further chin-tapping thought. Will update later if I don't unravel it in the mean time...
edit
-
Make up your mind, mate. I'd like to hear this...
-
Make up your mind, mate. I'd like to hear this...
That mate sounds aussie...
-
[/quote]
That mate sounds aussie...
[/quote]
ARSE ARSE CRIKEY BUGGER
-
Alright...Here are some thoughts that I have come up with. These do not relate to the original intent of the topic but are some what related to the original title..so here it is. let me know if there is anything I am overlooking that would throw this out the window. Another note...I call Lavos' Pocket Dimension a "Zero Dimension", as a point is supposedly 0-D and it sounds cooler. Hopefully it is somewhat coherent...
Lavos Timeline
Instances where Lavos is “recorded” in time
1st 65m BC
2nd 12000 BC
3rd 600AD
4th 1999 AD
Lavos is attached to Earth’s time stream via a trans-dimensional parasitic link not unlike an umbilical cord. It is in its own zero dimension (0-D), in a space transcendent to time (at least “our” time). Due to the link, however, it does flows through time at the same rate as that experienced by Earth. Lavos can not see all time periods as previously thought, but can see everything as it happens while time flows naturally via the link.
Each instance (listed above) where Lavos is summoned or appears “on” Earth is “recorded” in history as it comes directly into contact with our time stream. Once it goes back to its 0-D, Lavos no longer is a part of the normal stream. This will be noticeably important momentarily.
During any of these initial instances, Lavos could be killed off (changing the future from then on) and solve all of the problems of the ruined future. However, in the Lavos Timeline Lavos goes unchallenged and continues its “mission” to great success. When it erupts from the depths of the Earth in 1999, it forever leaves its 0-D and becomes a part of the Earth’s time flow, “permanently” becoming a part of the time line. So from 1999 and onward, it resides within our actual timeline. Now, we move on to the Keystone 1 Timeline.
Keystone 1 timeline
For the ruined future to exist, it must have happened as it did in the Lavos timeline. Someone or something must have actively altered the past, which is where Trigger picks up. Whomever or whatever created the circumstances for Trigger to occur, did so after experiencing the events of 1999 with the intention of the un-ruin of the future.
As the events unfold in Trigger, we come across the previously mentioned instances where Lavos came into contact with our Time Stream. These recorded events take place as they did when they originally happened. Defeating Lavos in instance 1, 2 or 3 does nothing more than eliminate that particular occurrence from the timeline (with the possibility of some changes afterwards). When the party encounters Lavos in the first three instances they are witnessing an event that has already happened (not the “actual” Lavos). Of course they party can eliminate Lavos at each of those instances, changing only that instance (and the some of the future beyond that point) This is not the “actual” Lavos mind you, who has already come and gone and resides in 1999+. This situation is possible due to the 0-D and its unusual space-time phenomena.
The only way to prevent the ruined future is to meet up with the Lavos instance that caused that future to exist, instance #4. Killing off Lavos at this point in time prevents that future from existing, which of course results in that future being side swiped into the DBT….along with the Lavos Spawn. The strongest of those spawn manage to merge with Schala…enter DD/TD. And Keystone 2.
Some points to clarify (or try to):
1) The “actual” Lavos is never seen, only its “footprints” in time. It is my belief that once perched upon Death Peak, it reproduced asexually; a process that “kills” off the original and the new spawn emerge from the shell/carcass. They carry the DNA of the original (not necessarily the power…yet) and the ability to continue to absorb new DNA and evolve in perpetuity.
2) The 0-D no longer exists at any point in time. Once Lavos comes out of it in 1999 during the Lavos Timeline, Lavos “dissolves” the unneeded domain. Since it was never a part of our time stream and is not just a so called “pocket” dimension as previously thought it ceases to exist anywhere in time or space. This also eliminates the need for using Time-Error for this location, as the 0-D doesn’t function in that manner. (Lavos does not travel time either…
3) This means that during the events of Trigger, there is no pocket dimension/zero dimension and there is no “actual” Lavos. (only the recorded instances, as well as survived by the Spawn)
4) I would take the liberty of assuming that the summoning of Lavos from the Black Omen, the thought to be canon way of arriving to Lavos, would have to occur at 1999, as no new instances of Lavos could occur (based on my theory). This is supported by the fact (???) that after retreating from Lavos after the battle with the Queen…it can only be accessed afterwards via 1999 (Bucket or Epoch).
5) The Lavos paradox from defeating the shell in 1999 then heading back to 12000 to deal with the Zeal segment is eliminated with this theory.
6) The Lavos instance that matters towards changing the ruined future is the one instance that directly caused it (1999). Defeating Lavos during the first 3 instances would not change the ruined future, but maybe preventing the Reptites from dying off, Zeal from being destroyed or Magus’ castle from disappearing. Unknown exactly what would happen as my belief is that Lavos was eliminated in 1999 and that its 0-D causes some unusual occurrences throughout time.
-
I'm confused as to how this is a novel theory. It's pretty much common sense that when Lavos' pocket dimension is disconnected from the timelines that Lavos can observe the entire timeline from the pocket dimension, but when it connects to the timeline time would have to flow normally inside the pocket dimension (indeed, like an umbilical cord to the normal flow of time).
However, I disagree with you at one key point. If I am interpreting you correctly, you are saying that the party can not fight the true Lavos before 1999 A.D.? Well, to use the Ocean Palace incident as an example, when someone enters Lavos' pocket dimension, they are effectively time travelling. Just as in the normal timeline, the future of Lavos' pocket dimension can likewise be altered. So, I see no contradiction here because in the normal timeline Crono and co. did not enter Lavos' pocket dimension and the Ocean Palace events proceeded one way, but in the new timeline they did - altering history both in their timeline and the timeline of the pocket dimension.
I agree with you though that Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D., but for a different reason - Time Bastard would preserve Lavos' arrival in 1999 A.D. even if they killed Lavos in the past. So, the only way for them to truly alter the future would be to kill him after he erupts in 1999 A.D., regardless of what the script of Chrono Cross suggests or what the Compendium's contradictory theories support.
-
I suppose the main difference I am trying to convey is this: (besides renaming pocket to zero)
Currently it is believed that this zero dimension exists during the events of Trigger and that Lavos can see everything on the timeline from its little dimension. It is assumed that this zero dimension always exists in every time line, as if it follows the same principles as the "normal" flow of time, up until Lavos leaves it.
My belief is that this zero dimension exists only in the "original" Lavos timeline, when it first came to Earth. After it erupts 1999 AD, it ceases to exists, at any point in time (on the Lavos or the Keystone timelines) While I believe Lavos does reside in its own dimension, I don't think that it connects to all points (and I don't believe that to be common sense as you said, only the best idea so far.) I think this 0-D has "latched" on to the time stream (with the umbilical cord), which allows for Lavos and the 0-D to flow at a natural rate of time.
Each time Lavos comes into direct contact with our time stream during the Lavos timeline, those moments are recorded in time, as any normal event would. Once Lavos leaves the time stream, it goes back to the 0-D but only on the Lavos timeline. Once the events of Trigger take place, the 0-D does not exist any longer and the only time Lavos "exists" is at those instances I mentioned, as they were recorded in time.
The point of the game is to prevent the ruined future and with what I have said, this can only be done in 1999. Defeating Lavos at any instance other than the 1999 one, would do nothing to prevent the ruined future. 1999 is when Lavos leaves the 0-D, destroys the world and starts to reside on our time stream. Defeating Lavos at 1999 DBT's the ruined future and what is left of the original Lavos (the Spawn).
Maybe my little picture can help. Hard trying to explain this stuff.
edit: just to clarify, since I don't believe the 0-D to exist anymore, no one actually enters the 0-D. That blue wavy stuff can could have easily came with Lavos as it left the 0-D. I don't think it means that they are physically in the 0-D.
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
I think I get it:
Compendium: PD always exists, before and after Entity intervenes, and its future can be changed.
You: 0-D only exists until 1999. Because it is separate from the timeline, after 1999 (when it is dissolved) it wouldn't be "approachable" from any point in time beforehand.
Which means that the party can't defeat Lavos in 12000BC because the second time around its like he came from nowhere and would return to nowhere. Blink in, blink out - weird. lol
Kinda like it =)
-
Yea, Now that I think of it...this has nothing to do with whether the PD/0D flow of time is perpendicular or parallel...I probably should update my babble to exclude that, as that is not the topic of my theory (anymore). It started off as such but ended up elsewhere...
Anyways, yes that about sums it up. Although I will restate what you said, to try and be a little more clear.
Compendium: PD always exists, in all timelines, up to 1999. Crono and crew go to the PD and fight Lavos, presumably in 12000BC, as the battle with Queen Zeal segues into the Lavos battle. Crono and crew win, PD is cut off from our time stream
Me: 0D exists until 1999, in the "Lavos" Timeline only. Once Lavos originally comes out and dissolves the 0D, it no longer exists at any point in time, past, present or future. All instances where Crono and crew meet up with Lavos are events where Lavos has the TTI effect. Could possibly kill the Lavos at that instance, but to prevent the ruined future, which is the whole point of the game, they must travel to 1999 and off the beast there, for obvious reasons.
This could explain why Lavos has its shell intact at the Ocean Palace incident if it is destroyed in 1999.
This could also possibly explain the Doan paradox...if the party truly does defeat Lavos in 12000BC, then the ruined future would still exist...of course this goes against what is inferred in Cross and the lack of "omg, why does the ruined future still exist after we defeated Lavos" kind of reaction from Lucca et al. Although that might be explained by a lack of understanding of the situation or overlooked due to the celebratory mood at the time.
-
Now I get it.
This could explain why Lavos has its shell intact at the Ocean Palace incident if it is destroyed in 1999.
So, passing through the Black Omen in 12,000 BC could still be the canon way to reach Lavos. The queen, after her defeat, could send the party towards Lavos in 1999 than just calling Lavos to them. Yes, it makes sense that way.
-
It also explains why he is shown destroying 1999 AD if you lose to him.
-
The thing is though, Time Error:
When Crono and Co. time travel, they make a 5th dimensional change to Time (4D).
Even if eliminating the 0-D space in 1999 eliminates it in the entire timeline (which I understand), the choice to eliminate it in the first place was made in 1999, a point on the 4D axis.
By making a 5th dimensional change, Crono travels back before that choice was made.
Its easier to say that the reason why Lavos in 1999 can have its shell destroyed and the Lavos in the Ocean Palace incident can have it intact is because 1999 Lavos exited the 0-D space permanently. You kill the shell, it never returns to 0-D so all prior forms will keep the shell intact.
Then again, that doesn't violate the PD idea either. Lavos exits the PD when he erupts anyway - so going to 1999 and destroying the shell wouldn't affect the 12000BC version in the first place.
-
When Crono and Co. time travel, they make a 5th dimensional change to Time (4D).
Even if eliminating the 0-D space in 1999 eliminates it in the entire timeline (which I understand), the choice to eliminate it in the first place was made in 1999, a point on the 4D axis.
By making a 5th dimensional change, Crono travels back before that choice was made.
But didn't the 1999 when it dissolved was the one of the unchanged 'Lavos Timeline'?
That's his point, the time line first passed without the time traveling done by Crono, then the Entity did the first change to set the events in motion that will stop Lavos, ending in it's defeat in 1999. This is now done in the Keystone time line, which is different in that this time, Lavos was defeated.
-
But isn't this a little bit uneccesarily complicated? I agree that Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D., for example, but I agree for a different reason.
I think Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D. because Lavos appearing there would be covered by TTI. So even if you killed Lavos in 12000 B.C., he would still appear in 1999 A.D. to wreak havoc on the world. Only by defeating him after his final emergence in 1999 A.D. could the ruined future be changed.
A comparative hypothetical example to illustrate this point: Crono time travels to 600 A.D from Leene Square. If some time traveller then emerges in 1000 A.D. and kills Crono before he gets a chance to enter the time gate, he would still appear in 600 AD because of TTI.
The point that I want to drive across is that constructing an entirely new 0-D theory to explain why Lavos could only be killed in 1999 A.D. is unnecessary, because a much simpler theory already exists.
But I'm fair and critical of my own hypotheses, so:
Problems with my theory: This doesn't explain why if you defeat Lavos' shell in 1999 A.D. it is gone in previous time periods. Only if Lavos' PD wasn't completely dissolved immediately after he emerges in 1999 AD could this be explained.
-
Problems with my theory: This doesn't explain why if you defeat Lavos' shell in 1999 A.D. it is gone in previous time periods. Only if Lavos' PD wasn't completely dissolved immediately after he emerges in 1999 AD could this be explained.
By that you mean when you do the Black Omen?
I think Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D. because Lavos appearing there would be covered by TTI. So even if you killed Lavos in 12000 B.C., he would still appear in 1999 A.D. to wreak havoc on the world. Only by defeating him after his final emergence in 1999 A.D. could the ruined future be changed.
Doesn't his theory applies this too? While not mentioning TTI, he is still stating that Lavos appearing there is caused by it.
-
I personally think the canon should be that they fight Lavos in 12,000 B.C. in order to learn his weaknesses and form an effective strategy when they engage him in 1999 A.D. Since that would be redundant, the need for a second battle was removed.
If that doesn't work, then do what the guy did in T.L.O.C.T. They didn't fight Lavos after destroying the Black Omen in that. They went to 1999 A.D. after destroying the Omen, and crash Epoch into Lavos.
-
Wait, can you defeat his shell in 1999 and then visit him at all in other time periods...?? Once you do that in 1999, isn't there no turning back? The gate only appears in the Black Omen Lavos, I thought...
I say they fight him in 12,000BC mainly because they're forced to (regardless of what era you go through the Black Omen you wind up fighting Lavos in 12,000), but once they finish off the 1st form, I think they back out with the Gate to gather themselves (& why not talk to Gaspar one last time?)...then they punch through him with the Epoch (MOAR DAMAGE!!! MWAHAHAHA!!!)...Balloon ending commences afterwards, giving us a goddamn 'ending' ending...
-
Wait, can you defeat his shell in 1999 and then visit him at all in other time periods...
Yes, you can.
-
Oh, right, there's an option to just back out after you defeat the shell or something...? It's been so long since I've taken that route, I must've forgotten...
-
I have a save before I defeated the black omen Lavos, inside Lavos's shell.
I lost to the ocean palace Lavos...So that means I didn't beak its shell before....
That means I beat the shell somewhere else besides the ocean palace and black omen...
-
I guess no matter what you do, the damn thing won't die. That's the impression I get from the Chrono series.
-
Black Omen is not the only way to challenge Lavos and find a Gate+Save in the shell. Take the bucket at the End Of Time and get in the shell, and you'll find a Gate+Save there.
EDIT: Typo detected.
-
I think Lavos could only be defeated in 1999 A.D. because Lavos appearing there would be covered by TTI. So even if you killed Lavos in 12000 B.C., he would still appear in 1999 A.D. to wreak havoc on the world. Only by defeating him after his final emergence in 1999 A.D. could the ruined future be changed.
Doesn't his theory applies this too? While not mentioning TTI, he is still stating that Lavos appearing there is caused by it.
Yes, I didn't have full comprehension TTI ( :oops: ) when I wrote the thing, and I probably should update it to reflect that, yes Lavos appears at each instance due to TTI. The thing that is different is that 1999 is when Lavos permanently comes to our timeline (and permanently leaves the PD) and parks its spiky ass on death peak. The 1999 - 2xxx Lavos is the "real" original Lavos (arrival protected by TTI). So for the ruined future to not exist the party must travel to 1999 and kill it off there. The other instances happen due to TTI as well. Having it this way eliminates the inconsistency of the shell.
It seems unnecessicarily complicated because it is poorly written and I need to fix that, but it really isn't that complicated. The only new thing is that I say the Pocket Dimension does not exist at the time of Trigger as it has already served its purpose during the Lavos Timeline and that the "real" Lavos resides in and is defeated in 1999.
I'd say the main hurdle with my theory adjustment, is when Queen Zeal "summons" Lavos, supposedly in 12000 on the Black Omen. Since there is no more PD, she wouldn't be able to summon a new instance of Lavos from the PD, she would have to basically transport the party to 1999 or the 1999 Lavos to the party in 12000. For the sake of my argument, I am going to say that the party is hurled to 1999, as she intended for a full powered Lavos to destroy the party. And that brings me to another thing is that since there is no PD, Lavos' power is not full strength at any point in time, but only at 1999.
Oh, right, there's an option to just back out after you defeat the shell or something...? It's been so long since I've taken that route, I must've forgotten...
I think the option is there before you destroy the shell, when you go through via the Omen.
-
This theory has bothered me since I first read it (sorry placidchap :D) but I couldn't really put my finger on why. Well I think that now I can. It's somewhat incomplete and needs to be elaborated further.
Eske and I have been systematically going through and re-evaluating a lot of old assumptions about Time Bastard, TTI, Time Error, etc. in the Time, Space, and Dimensions forum. Some notable threads are:
Marle Paradox, let's change our point of view (demonstrates that a future isn't immediately sent to the DBT upon time travel to the past, modified analysis of Time Error.)
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6596.0
Time Devourer's Defeat Undoes the Fall of Guardia and Lucca's Death (a proof of Dimensional Bastard and Dimensional Travellers Immunity given. Re-evaluation of Cross' plot and a proof that TTI, TB, DTI, and DB are not preserved after the dimensional reunification)
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php?topic=6571.0
And the entire time I was thinking about the whole Pocket Dimension conundrum. I think a slight modification about how we think about the Pocket Dimension could solve this completely.
Let's begin:
In the original timeline at the start of Trigger, Lavos has already influenced events in 12,000 BC and 600 AD, and in the future in 1999 AD. The problem arises when thinking about the nature of these events. Are they just events preserved by TTI or is Crono and co. really fighting the "true" Lavos inside of the PD? Is timeflow inside the PD really perpendicular to the timeline? Can Lavos "see" all time periods? What a headache! Let's try and figure things out by beginning with a strange but simpler problem:
Time X: Person A enters pocket dimension -----------------> Time X+2000: Person B enters pocket dimension
But at what time do each of them appear in the PD? 2000 years apart, or at the same time in the PD?
Drawing from our analysis of the Marle paradox in the other thread, if the PD can be viewed as having time flow be perpendicular:
So it can be viewed as proceeding along Time Error:
Time Error 0: Fight Lavos at Time X and stick a sword in him. Travel back in time to X-1000
Time Error 1: Fight Lavos at Time X-1000. You find that the sword is still there.
From Lavos' perspective time is flowing along the axis of Time Error. But from what we've been talking about in the Marle paradox thread, two time travellers from the same timeline but at different times can end up at the same point in Time Error. So modifying this example:
Time Error 0: Time X: Person A enters PD. Time X+2000: Person B enters PD.
When do they arrive?
Time Error 1: Both Person A and Person B arrive at the same moment in the PD!
Every moment that passes for them in the PD is like progressing through Time Error. Inside the Pocket Dimension, it is like they are continually time travelling all of the time. This is different from the normal concept of perpendicular time flow in the PD, and I believe it may answer a lot of questions.
A more relevant example:
After true "original" timeline in which Lavos "first" crashes to the planet and enters his PD, I am assigning an arbitrary time Time Error 0 in the PD in which Lavos first makes contact with Zeal in 12,000 BC:
Time Error 0: Lavos makes contact from his PD with 12,000 BC but not 600 AD. Magus is sent to 600 AD. The Guru's presumably enter the PD but are sent away as well.
Time Error 1: Magus arrives in 600 AD. Lavos makes contact with 600 AD because of Magus' interference.
Time Error 2: Corresponds to the start of Trigger and Crono and co.'s timeline. All events in which Crono and co. fight Lavos in his PD exist after Time Error 2. For the sake of argument:
Time Error 3: Crono and co. fight Lavos in the Ocean Palace (it wouldn't really be Time Error 3 since multiple instances of time travel by Crono have already occurred).
Time Error 4: Crono and co. fight Lavos from the Black Omen
This neatly explains why Lavos can appear to be contacting multiple points in time at once, and also why Crono and co. can seem to fight him out of order in their timeline but they can still see the past efforts of their struggle. It demonstrates that in true perpendicular time flow in the PD, there are no contradictions in the plot of Trigger.
But wait! This can't be correct, because we are overlooking the most important part. Lavos exits his PD in 1999 for good and lives upon the planet creating Lavos spawn. So let's put this into the above analysis now and see if it works:
Time Error 0: Lavos makes contact from his PD with 12,000 BC but not 600 AD. Magus is sent to 600 AD. The Guru's presumably enter the PD but are sent away as well. But Time Error 0 corresponds to a timeline that has Lavos emerging in 1999 AD from his pocket dimension to destroy the world.
Time Error 1: Magus arrives in 600 AD. Lavos makes contact with 600 AD because of Magus' interference. But how can Lavos make contact with Magus if he has already emerged from his Pocket Dimension?
Time Error 2: Corresponds to the start of Trigger and Crono and co.'s timeline. All events in which Crono and co. fight Lavos in his PD exist after Time Error 2. For the sake of argument:
Time Error 3: Crono and co. fight Lavos in the Ocean Palace (it wouldn't really be Time Error 3 since multiple instances of time travel by Crono have already occurred). But how can Lavos make contact with Crono and co. if he has already emerged from his PD?
So on and so forth. This demonstrates that the PD can not exhibit perpendicular time flow as placidchap predicted. Let's take a simpler example:
Time Error 0: Lavos presumably makes contact with Zeal in 12,000 BC and emerges in the original Ocean Palace incident. Lavos then re-enters his PD.
Time Error 1: Lavos then emerges from his PD for good in 1999 AD for the first time altering the timeline.
Time Error 2: Lavos no longer exists in the PD. If Crono and co. enter the PD to fight Lavos, they will not see him there.
So this proves that the PD no longer exists in the current timeline as placidchap predicted! But there's another problem! Every time Crono and co. fight Lavos, where are they fighting him since they can't fight him in the Pocket Dimension? Well the first time they fight him in Zeal, this event presumably already occurred and is preserved by TTI. Every subsequent time they fight Lavos though, they would have to be fighting the Lavos of 1999 AD! Even when Magus "summons" Lavos in 600 AD to fight him, he would have to fight him in 1999 AD.
Placidchap is correct. There is no other explanation. Either you keep the PD theory and the plot of Chrono Trigger unravels completely, or you partially do away with it and explain everything. The PD originally existed but no longer does. All instances of fighting Lavos due to TTI or in 1999 AD create the "illusion" that the PD is still there, but it can't be because of causality.
-
Alright, so I reread the Compendium's PD theory.
How many versions of Lavos can we actually access? I see 1999AD (Bucket, Epoch) and 12000BC (Ocean Palace) and unknown (Black Omen, Telepod). If all the unknowns were 1999AD, there would be no issue - - I think.... -_-
EDIT: I changed it.
-
Alright, so I reread the Compendium's PD theory.
How many versions of Lavos can we actually access? I see 1999AD (Bucket, Epoch) and 12000BC (Ocean Palace) and unknown (Black Omen, Telepod). If all the unknowns were 1999AD, there would be no issue - - I think.... -_-
EDIT: I changed it.
Yes, this is what I concluded above. Not only would there be no issue if all of the unknowns were 1999 AD, but there would be enormous issues if all of the unknowns weren't 1999 AD. Placidchap was right. The PD theory is total bunk and holds absolutely no water. It should be removed from the Compendium.
-
Alright, so I reread the Compendium's PD theory.
How many versions of Lavos can we actually access? I see 1999AD (Bucket, Epoch) and 12000BC (Ocean Palace) and unknown (Black Omen, Telepod). If all the unknowns were 1999AD, there would be no issue - - I think.... -_-
EDIT: I changed it.
Yes, this is what I concluded above. Not only would there be no issue if all of the unknowns were 1999 AD, but there would be enormous issues if all of the unknowns weren't 1999 AD. Placidchap was right. The PD theory is total bunk and holds absolutely no water. It should be removed from the Compendium.
The evidence from CT is fairly weak ( when Lavos erupts after Omen is destroyed it "looks" like 12000BC OR its the most canon path )
But there is something from CC that seems to support a pre-1999AD demise of Lavos:
~~~~ -- LAVOS -- ~~~~
~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An extraterrestrial life-form
that is thought to have
fallen from the heavens
65 million years ago.
On the time line that existed
before history was changed,
Lavos was assumed to have
slept deep below the planet's
surface...
Sleeping and consuming the
planet's energy up until the
day of destruction known as
the '"Apocalypse."'
There are those who believe
that, 12 thousand years ago,
the legendary ancient magical
civilization known as Zeal
came into contact with Lavos.
That fateful encounter is
said to have resulted in
Zeal disappearing from the
surface of the planet within
the space of a single night.
However, the very existence
of the ancient civilization
of Zeal has never been proven,
so up till this day this
theory cannot be confirmed.
On some time lines, Lavos
appeared on the surface of
the planet in the year 1999
and brought the world to
ruins. However, a group of young
time travelers saw where
their planet's history was
heading and, through their
actions, rewrote time.
This very research facility
exists on that new time line...
In a world where, thanks to
the defeat of Lavos by the
young adventurers, the
Apocalypse never happened...
On a temporal vector where
human civilization continued
to evolve unhampered.
All the data on Lavos that was
obtained from tracing different
parallel world possibilities
has proven to be volatile, with
fluctuating discrepencies.
Perhaps, at this point in time,
it is nearly impossible to
obtain any true information
about Lavos.
This gives off the impression that Lavos simply did not appear in 1999AD AT ALL. But it doesn't directly say it.
Apparently CC's translation from Japanese is supposed to be excellent and very reliable - but perhaps this portion should be reexamined in the original Japanese.
-
Yes, I believe that was why the Compendium supports a 12,000 BC defeat of Lavos. I always interpreted the first bolded portion to mean that Lavos did indeed appear, but did not bring the world to ruins in "some timelines". But Lavos' appearance would be covered by TTI. If the Compedium supports TTI theory, they can't have it both ways.
-
Yes, I believe that was why the Compendium supports a 12,000 BC defeat of Lavos. I always interpreted the first bolded portion to mean that Lavos did indeed appear, but did not bring the world to ruins in "some timelines". But Lavos' appearance would be covered by TTI. If the Compedium supports TTI theory, they can't have it both ways.
Correct. That is what the line literally says. The Compendium takes the implications of its absence in 1999AD into account. But lets look at the rest of the paragraph.
Before the line "This very facility..." the piece is focused directly on Lavos and isn't "personal" (I don't know anything about the titles of writing styles or whatever).
So the line
"On some time lines, Lavos
appeared on the surface of
the planet in the year 1999
and brought the world to
ruins."
has no bearing on whether or not he appeared in the timeline containing Chronopolis. It's centered on Lavos relative to everything, not just their reality.
So I don't really see it as evidence, or at least not strong evidence, that Lavos was defeated before 1999AD.
-
That makes sense, I didn't think about it that way. Another compendium theory thrown out the window then, I say.
Good thing TB, TTI, and Time Error are still left in good standing :D.
-
Yea, that is why I posted my thoughts chrono eric. I needed other peoples brains thinking about it and fleshing it out rather than just my own. It wasn't until I posted that I started to realize a couple of flaws and misunderstandings in my own theory...but I still stand by that the PD no longer exists, at least with Lavos in it. (I like to think that Lavos didn't create the PD, but Lavos accessed another dimension, that is more than just a "pocket".) I'll have to review the Time Error theory before I can comment on what you said as I haven't really taken the time to understand it...not to mention it is yet another thing I do not like the name of. But at least we both agree on the main principle of my theory.
-
Yeah, I can't stand the name of Time Error either. But I use it so everyone is on the same page with each other. At first I wasn't sure if you were right until I worked it out completely. And you definitely are. How do we get the Compendium to change it? (and other problems with their theories that me and Eske have worked out)
Time Error is a simple theory. There are several different interpretations of it but this one is the most useful. It basically states that there is another axis that time runs in that is perpendicular to the normal flow of time, but only time travellers go through Time Error. So, every time a time traveller makes a voyage at least to the past (and probably to the future too), they end up at a new point and a new timeline on Time Error. This neatly explains why time seems to be passing for Crono and co. on their own time axis. Take this as an example.
Time Error 0: Person A time travels at Time X to Time X-400. This timeline does not have Person A existing at Time X-400.
But when does he arrive? He can't arrive in the past on Time Error 0 because then Person A could read about his own time travelling exploits before they happen in a sense. The present is built upon the past, and he exists in a present in which he did not exist in the past. So:
Time Error 1: new timeline. Person A appears at Time X-400. This timeline has Person A existing in the past, and Person A' (new version of Person A in the future) could read about his time travelling exploits in the past.
Simple, right?
-
Yea, that is why I posted my thoughts chrono eric. I needed other peoples brains thinking about it and fleshing it out rather than just my own. It wasn't until I posted that I started to realize a couple of flaws and misunderstandings in my own theory...but I still stand by that the PD no longer exists, at least with Lavos in it. (I like to think that Lavos didn't create the PD, but Lavos accessed another dimension, that is more than just a "pocket".) I'll have to review the Time Error theory before I can comment on what you said as I haven't really taken the time to understand it...not to mention it is yet another thing I do not like the name of. But at least we both agree on the main principle of my theory.
I feel almost the same way. I don't think a pocket dimension ever existed for Lavos. If the theory came about to explain the "intact shell" quirk, its just a gameplay quirk. The characters don't stand there and say something like:
Marle: "Wow, he's damaged in this era too!"
Lucca: "Perhaps he generates his own dimension, that would explain it!"
Nope. We are probably not meant to focus on it.
As for the blue background, the only clue we are given is that Lavos's power makes the dimension unstable or creates distortions.
The game gives the impression on several occasions that Lavos is buried deep within the earth, absorbing its power. Perhaps things should have been left at that.
Not trying to be a buzz kill lol, just saying that there is a difference between interpreting and twisting events.
Example - Melchior and Janus vanish despite being safe in the village after Zeal falls.
Interpreting: "Maybe Zeal wanted the gurus gone, regardless of their location. She did banish them prior to this incident."
Twisting: "They vanished because their counterparts, protected by TTI, time travelled at that point."
=============
@chrono eric: I'm trying to come up with a different idea of how time travel works, based on examples from the game alone. It will be tough, yes, but I think it's worth the trouble. Here is my first rough draft based on a recent playthrough:
Entity Focus: Because time travel is limited to/exists within the planet's memories, standard causal relationships need not apply. To explain further, imagine that the player's view of the game from the outside-in represents the Entity's view or focus. If the the Entity's focus does not rest on a certain era, changes in that era will not produce any change in the Era of Focus (EoF).
Example: EoF = 1000AD. Marle enters 600AD, by some Compendium models 1000AD should be replaced by a new version of 1000AD reflecting the changes made. This does not happen. Instead, Crono, Lucca and all others remain totally unaffected.
Example: EoF = 1000AD. Crono tries to get Moonstone from the greedy mayor. He fails to do so but buys some jerky at the snail stop. Then time travels to...
EoF = 600AD. Crono gives the mayor's ancestor the jerky. He then returns to 1000AD.
EoF = 1000AD. Crono sees that the mayor is now kind and generous.
Now how did I come up with this idea? Easy, the famous Fiona Forest scene. My interpretation of those events is as follows:
While the group is discussing a possible Entity overseeing the adventure, Marle asks Lucca about a time period she would want to travel to. Lucca shys away because she doesn't want to remember. But the planet does remember the incident - and in doing so creates a gate for Lucca to enter. When she changes the past and returns, Robo somehow understands what has happened and comments on how that moment in her life must have been weighing on her mind.
To me, this scene suggests a few things that I believe (for now) may have been intended:
1. The Entity is watching over them.
2. The Entity feels kindness/pity/etc towards them
3. The Entity can, in fact, create gates and to specific time periods.
This ^ led me to believe that the planet may be focusing on the Crono Team during the whole adventure. Of course this is my speculation/fan theory - but it's based upon Robo's comments and I'm trying really hard to gravitate around events in the game and its themes, rather than physics. Hopefully this won't be a bust.
-
It is an interesting idea and you should try to flesh it out further Eske. What I mean by this is, TTI, Time Error, TB, etc. are ideas derived from the game to try to explain a traditional concept of time travel - ie: literally going back into the past.
But if one were to take some sort of existential view of reality, an Entity-time travel interpretation may be just as valid. But it would have to both explain and predict everything that TTI, Time Error, and TB does - otherwise it is not an equally good theory. See my point? Until then, I think I'll continue interpreting events in the game using these theories since they have been so successful.
But I really like yours though, lets try to work it out more.
-
It is an interesting idea and you should try to flesh it out further Eske. What I mean by this is, TTI, Time Error, TB, etc. are ideas derived from the game to try to explain a traditional concept of time travel - ie: literally going back into the past.
But if one were to take some sort of existential view of reality, an Entity-time travel interpretation may be just as valid. But it would have to both explain and predict everything that TTI, Time Error, and TB does - otherwise it is not an equally good theory. See my point? Until then, I think I'll continue interpreting events in the game using these theories since they have been so successful.
But I really like yours though, lets try to work it out more.
Time Bastard - This theory is based on reason, yes, but also thrives on a lack of information. TB should hold that counterparts either enter gates and go to the DBT or simply vanish where they stand at the original's departure time X. Melchior and Janus aren't really evidence of this because even Robo comments that they where probably taken into gates created by Lavos. Nowhere else in the game do we hear anything from anyone suggesting that people vanish out of nowhere. i.e. :
Crono's Mom: "Oh Crono there you are! I was talking to you earlier and when I turned around you were missing dear."
Taban: "Well if it isn't my beautiful daughter. Try not to sneak out when I ask you for help next time!"
Nope. TB "works" because we don't see any counter to it. By that logic, I can make any theory I want and call it 100% valid because no visible counter in the game exists. i.e. :
Chrono and Co. can visibly see the damage numbers over the monsters' heads. See what I mean? Its crazy but it's in the game, and no one ever mentions that they "can't tell how much damage they are doing". Hmph.
Time Traveller Immunity - Assumes a need to protect time travel events because of brittle timelines. For example: changes to the past will affect the future.
Though that statement makes sense, it's not something we see in the game ALL the time. [Marle's travel doesn't change the timeline, Ayla missing for millions of years changes nothing.] It's easy to make a rule and then dismiss in-game counters to it - but it doesn't make much sense to do so.
Time Error - Nothing wrong with it (the original, Compendium version - not the one I used). It explains how "time" is measured for time travellers and explains why Gaspar is unaffected by changes to the timeline.
See? I'm not a hater. I just have this "back to the game" movement in mind for fan theories. TB and TTI are built on a structure that ignores the source of the gates, the Entity.
-
Yes, but I could easily make a counter theory to your "Entity perception-time travel" theory (come up with a better name so I don't have to keep making ones up). For example, in Fiona's forest Robo talks about the entity "remembering" it's past. Well, if the Entity is an immortal being, and it remembers it's past, and it has power over time and space - then a perfectly acceptable alternate theory could simply be that whenever the Entity remembers an event in it's past, a gate is created to that place in space and time.
In this theory, nothing about TTI/TB/Our interpretation of Time Error, is changed. The only thing that is changed is the concept that the Entity creates gates and the reason why it creates gates. Time travel still works in the traditional sense and is still subject to the same physical problems that TTI/TB etc. solve.
So if we are to come up with a theory that is true to the game and nothing else, it will have to be a theory which has no need for TTI/TB at all which is the point I'm trying to make. It will have to be some sort of existential interpretation of time and space in the Chronoverse, which could potentially be troublesome.
-
I just realized that "my" theory...was pretty much already said over a year ago by Chrono'99 in the Lavos and Guardian Paradox thread :( bugger.
-
Yes but you said it better. Props go to you.
-
If you take it back to the games, you'll encounter a lot of disparate issues. Yuji Horii really didn't cover himself, and it's not like we could have expected Toriyama to give a damn about hard science fiction either. Whatever produces the least plot holes while making the most sense works.
The Pocket Dimension theory is probably history.
-
If you take it back to the games, you'll encounter a lot of disparate issues. Yuji Horii really didn't cover himself, and it's not like we could have expected Toriyama to give a damn about hard science fiction either. Whatever produces the least plot holes while making the most sense works.
Yea, I've pretty much come to accept that now. For awhile I tried to think of something that stayed more "true" to the games so to speak. After failing to do so, I've decided to just go with the flow and hope that someone else thinks of something drastic. 8) Also... it looks like someone is trying to bring new life to PD.
-
Well, no, I think it's probably going to die...You're right in that it was sort of a more "stretch" than some other things in the beginning, since nothing was explicitly stated to confirm it, and at the same time, the internal consistency of the game doesn't absolutely depend on it (like it may with TTI or things to avoid paradoxes). There's also an awful lot of gameplay surrounding it.
We'll see; it's the last thing we'll tackle in this analysis review.
-
There is one part of the PD theory that I don't really mind...the PD itself...why not have a PD that is just on the "normal" 4D time? A place under the Earth's crust, same w, x, y and z coordinates but with a different "v" value...w being time and v being dimension.
As a layman reading about dimensions (on wikipedia no less), we only perceive the x,y and z dimensions but there is supposedly many more that we can not see. Why not have Lavos be able to move in one or more of these other dimensions, out of our ability to see it directly?
-
Yes, that is not out of the question, but it would be pointless as it wouldn't actually predict anything. The value of these fan-theories is that they both explain and predict plot events in the games. For the sake of this, Lavos might as well be existing physically within the earth's crust and not in a PD of any sort, because it would produce the same effect.
-
Yea, the only reason I said what I said, and forgot to mention(dur), was to explain the blue distortion.
-
Another viable theory for the blue field is that Lavos as an entity exerts a powerful force on spacetime and that the blue field are space and time distorting around him.
-
Yea, that's a simpler way of having it, considering the gates look the same too. So never mind about the PD then, I say retire completely.