Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Lavos, the Planet, and other Entities => Topic started by: Sora on December 05, 2007, 02:40:53 pm
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What if Lavos' shell is some kind of living spaceship, and the core of Lavos is the pilot? When we think of Lavos I think of a big porcupine, but maybe we should just think of this as a tool. As for the second form, I believe that is just the Lavos equivalent to a Gundam, and that the core is what Lavos truly is; However, I am perplexed as to weather the humanoid in the center is the true Lavos, or the bit on the right. since the right bit is the strongest, and can revive the core it would make since for the right bit to be Lavos.
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What, exactly, is Lavos? Is he the core, the bits, the 2nd form, or the shell? I would propose that that is a false dichotomy. Why should we assume that Lavos' shell/2nd form is any less Lavos than the Lavos Core and Bits (I do hope I am not the only one to recognize the really bad double entendre)? They are Lavos and the only thing that ever implies otherwise are a few battles. Given that the Time Devourer resembles the outer shell more than the inner bits, I am inclined to think that any part of Lavos can be a legitimate representation for Lavos as a whole.
Lavos is an alien, after all, should we not expect him (she, they, it, yous, we, whatever) to have an alien biology that is fundamentally unlike anything on Earth? We are familiar with multi-cellular organisms; might Lavos then just be a multi-organism organism, particularly if we take it as the opposite of the Earth itself (as per the Gaia Hypothesis)?
To use a cellular analogy, the shell seems to be the cell wall/membrane, the 2nd form could be seen as the nucleus (or Lysosomes/Peroxisomes), the Lavos Core as its "DNA," and the bits as its RNA. As a whole they form a functioning cell.
Such an analogy seems to be particularly pleasing when one considers the virus-like nature of Lavos. It infects a healthy entity (the earth), feeds off it until that entity dies, altering the host's DNA and its own genetic code, and in the death of both the host organism and original virus it releases new spores to go off infecting more entities.
Just a,
Thought
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I prefer to think of Lavos as an entity which includes the shell, 2nd form and teh bits. It's true that you can think of Lavos' Shall as a spaceship and the being inside as the 'true' Lavos. But you can also think of the 2nd form as being merely a brain. At the end of the day, I think the shell is as much Lavos as the 2nd form is.
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The Lavos Spawns sort of make the spaceship theory unlikely.
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Lavos's shell is just a protective barrier...As you said, kinda like a porcupine. The innards I...I really don't quite get. I don't think he'd have 2 bodies of himself inside himself...seems really weird. I guess you could say one was his "control center" where he manipulated the shell to do w/e and the final form is his brain. Lavos is annoying ;/
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Lavos is annoying ;/
We have reached the pinical of the discussion. with this truth let all others be laid to rest!
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I am of the opinion that this is a subject that was stated, but poorly explained. It might be best to think of Lavos as a being not dissimilar to Galatea of Bubblegum Crisis Tokyo 2040. Lavos is capable of altering his own DNA, and thus evolving at will.
The early battles where Lavos imitates other beings from throughout history lend credence to this theory, as well as several statements about Lavos absorbing and altering the DNA of the planet's creatures. Each time a form is defeated, Lavos evolves into something stronger. Lavos finally decides that all of these other forms are inferior to his native form and evolves back to his original state.
This "shell" is the "real" Lavos until he is defeated by the PCs. At this point, Lavos knows he's in trouble, so he speeds up his evolution and starts to change to more closely resemble the planet's dominate lifeform (humans). He is in the middle of this evolution when the PCs climb through his innards in an attempt to end his threat once and for all. After being unsuccessful again, he speeds his evolution up still more to produce the final form (with the "bits").
Now I can only speculate on this part, but I think Lavos can tap into the pure energy of the Tesseract, which is why his power is nearly limitless and so destructive. In a final attempt to defeat the PCs, he draws himself and them into the Tesseract so he can tap into that power more directly. I think this was his fatal flaw, because I am not convinced that the PCs could have permanently destroyed him on the physical plane (how do you kill something that can evolve at will?). After the PCs defeat him again, here in the Tesseract, he becomes inert and only exists outside timespace as we know it.
Then he bumps into Schala, who had been sucked into the Tesseract herself thanks to the destruction of the Ocean Palace, and we run into the plot of Chrono Cross.
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If Lavos is an alien why he can;t have a mather becoause he is only a spawn of some older creature from another planet .In the death pick Lucca says that Lavos espread the spawns to infects others planets so perhaps there are more Lavos.
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my thinking is more in line with THOUGHT...
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Just two quick thoughts about the changes in Lavos' nature;
Assuming that there are other Lavoids out there, do we have any reason to expect them to look similar to earth's Lavos?
When we see Lavos flying through space, he appears as a spiky ball/sphere, yet when we see him on earth he is always an odd porcupine thing. Is the other half of his "sphere" just buried underground still, is this just a change in graphics for no apparent reason, or might this indicate how Lavos has changed (including his exterior shell) during his time on Earth (as in, after studying earth life, it changed its shell away from a sphere, seeing it as beneficial to have a definite anterior and posterior)?
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I don't like the "living spaceship" theory too much. Lavos is clearly a organism that can reproduce (Lavos Spawns on Death Peak).
If Lavos is an alien why he can;t have a mather becoause he is only a spawn of some older creature from another planet .In the death pick Lucca says that Lavos espread the spawns to infects others planets so perhaps there are more Lavos.
First of all, by "mather" I assume you mean "Mother", in which case of course he does, though I don't think Lavos organisms are gender specific. Lavos came by itself and managed to bear children on Death Peak, so this shows that it is an asexual being. Of course, it has a "parent", if you will, which must have given birth to it the same fashion that Lavos gives birth to the spawns on Death Peak. And I absolutely think that there are more Lavos in the Chrono Universe, how many planets could be falling victim to these beings? =P
When we see Lavos flying through space, he appears as a spiky ball/sphere, yet when we see him on earth he is always an odd porcupine thing. Is the other half of his "sphere" just buried underground still, is this just a change in graphics for no apparent reason, or might this indicate how Lavos has changed (including his exterior shell) during his time on Earth (as in, after studying earth life, it changed its shell away from a sphere, seeing it as beneficial to have a definite anterior and posterior)?
I think that's just a lack of graphics work by Square, or as you put it, a change in graphics for no apparent reason. I'm sure it was intended for you to view that "Spiky Ball" as the porcupine thingie we normally see. That's not the first part of CT that was messed up due to laziness or W/E happened with Square (Marle disappears for no reason in 600 A.D.), so I say don't elaborate too much on the fact that Lavos looks different in space than on Earth.
What, exactly, is Lavos? Is he the core, the bits, the 2nd form, or the shell? I would propose that that is a false dichotomy. Why should we assume that Lavos' shell/2nd form is any less Lavos than the Lavos Core and Bits (I do hope I am not the only one to recognize the really bad double entendre)? They are Lavos and the only thing that ever implies otherwise are a few battles. Given that the Time Devourer resembles the outer shell more than the inner bits, I am inclined to think that any part of Lavos can be a legitimate representation for Lavos as a whole.
Lavos is an alien, after all, should we not expect him (she, they, it, yous, we, whatever) to have an alien biology that is fundamentally unlike anything on Earth? We are familiar with multi-cellular organisms; might Lavos then just be a multi-organism organism, particularly if we take it as the opposite of the Earth itself (as per the Gaia Hypothesis)?
To use a cellular analogy, the shell seems to be the cell wall/membrane, the 2nd form could be seen as the nucleus (or Lysosomes/Peroxisomes), the Lavos Core as its "DNA," and the bits as its RNA. As a whole they form a functioning cell.
Such an analogy seems to be particularly pleasing when one considers the virus-like nature of Lavos. It infects a healthy entity (the earth), feeds off it until that entity dies, altering the host's DNA and its own genetic code, and in the death of both the host organism and original virus it releases new spores to go off infecting more entities.
Just a,
Thought
Great post, and I certainly always thought Lavos to be a multi-organism-organism like you are suggesting (Though I never put this much thought into it). It's safe to say that your post here is probably the best way to view Lavos, and quite possibly, the only reasonable one. =P
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In reply to the image problem, think less porcupines more hedge hog. There is no reason he couldn't curl up, in fact it would be ideal for planet entry.
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Every complex organism is a multi-organism. Our bodies are made up of billions of individual living cells functioning together. In a very real way, each of our various organs and supportive systems is its own living thing, though one wholly dependent upon the continued function of its neighbors.
In truth, the term "organism" is a very vague one. In terms of mutual survival cooperation, a nation or city can be considered just as alive as a human being, and exhibits the same basic survival methods.
The point is, the Lavos shell can be considered its own separate entity, but it is also a part of a more complex and integrated system that is the whole of Lavos, and includes the individual cores that control that system. No one part is any more the "true" Lavos than any other.
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I don't like the "living spaceship" theory too much. Lavos is clearly a organism that can reproduce (Lavos Spawns on Death Peak).
I never looked at Lavos as "living", but rather an artificial intelligence(a weapon/research vehicle ala Deus-Xenogears) so it's not much of a stretch to think that 'his' shell could be a space/time vehicle capable of sterilizing an entire planet(seriously do you think an organism can shoot massive amounts of pure energy from 'his' back? :wink:). Take a look at Lavos' original design and cell first form from DBZ(one of Toriyama's other works):
(http://ryoga.heypoorplayer.org/chrono/images/pre_lavos.png)(http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dragonball-z/Images/Transformations/CellImperfect1.gif)
it's zoomed out and has more of a mechanical feel than the later organic adaptation. And notice how he looks like cell's first form ; he could be 'devouring' the entity/entity's energy just like cell did with the other androids in an attempt to evolve.(a possible crossover, hmm..?)
Not to mention, just like Lavos, Cell used 'other' organisms to further his evolution as well. (the similarities are endless...)
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I never looked at Lavos as "living", but rather an artificial intelligence(a weapon/research vehicle ala Deus-Xenogears) so it's not much of a stretch to think that 'his' shell could be a space/time vehicle capable of sterilizing an entire planet(seriously do you think an organism can shoot massive amounts of pure energy from 'his' back? :wink:). Take a look at Lavos' original design and cell first form from DBZ(one of Toriyama's other works):
(http://ryoga.heypoorplayer.org/chrono/images/pre_lavos.png)(http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dragonball-z/Images/Transformations/CellImperfect1.gif)
it's zoomed out and has more of a mechanical feel than the later organic adaptation. And notice how he looks like cell's first form ; he could be 'devouring' the entity/entity's energy just like cell did with the other androids in an attempt to evolve.(a possible crossover, hmm..?)
Not to mention, just like Lavos, Cell used 'other' organisms to further his evolution as well. (the similarities are endless...)
I see your point, but would such a thing be able to reproduce on it's own?
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I see your point, but would such a thing be able to reproduce on it's own?
Technically, yes. Hold on I'm going to pull some info from another thread...
This post is intended to add to my previous hypothesis:
Cell's appearance varies depending on which form he is in. He evolved from a cocoon-like form and his first form is insect-like in appearance.
Hmm... The shell of Lavos does look like a cocoon and considering it(Lavos) was growing the 'Ultimate being' inside, it is rather indicative of the shell being a sort of cocoon.
Abilities
Cell has a large range of different varying powers, that previous Z warriors have shown, this is due to the fact that he is essentially a combination of many different cells of many different beings that have travelled to been on Earth.
Kinda like Lavos absorbed DNA, huh?..
Cell's final form, while possessing a tail, does not demonstrate the ability to absorb other beings. Instead, he uses his tail to create smaller versions of himself called Cell Juniors.
In Lavos' case--Lavoids
Lavos is also the final boss in Chrono Cross, except in the form of the Devourer of Time, the result of the defeated Lavos assimilating Schala in the darkness beyond time.
After absorbing a sufficient amount of beings, Cell then found #17 and #18 and nearly absorbed #17, if not for #16 who was able to fight Cell one on one.[6] He eventually manages to absorb #17 and changes into his second form. This second form would have absorbed #18 as well if Tenshinhan did not intervene. Tenshinhan is able to stall him long enough for #18 and #16 to escape. Cell gives chase to the two artificial humans and tries to flush them out of an island they were hiding in until Vegeta arrives to challenge Cell.[8] Vegeta easily defeats Cell by utilizing his new Super Saiyan 2nd Grade abilities. However, Vegeta, wanting to battle a more challenging opponent, assisted Cell in absorbing #18.[9] In this new form Cell easily defeats Vegeta and Trunks (who comes to assist Vegeta).
Perfection through absorption is my stance, not 'true' Evolution. (Like the Romans absorbed technology from other cultures to create a 'perfect society'.)
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Most interesting, thank you much.
Where do you think such a thing would come from? What could it's ultimate purpose be?
I'm definitely going to have to put some thought into this one. :shock:
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Where do you think such a thing would come from?
Good question... Weapon from another planet that went 'whack'..?
What could it's ultimate purpose be?
Other than achieving it's perfect form via aborbing DNA, the planet's energy, and the Arbiters(Serge and theoretically Schala) which may be intended components to Lavos like Androids were to Cell.(notably a *very* similar situation in Xenogears where Elyham, the Omnigears, and the wells were intended components for Deus); maybe an interplanetary siege weapon?..
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Where do you think such a thing would come from?
Good question... Weapon from another planet that went 'whack'..?
Perhaps, or maybe it didn't really go "Whack" at all, I guess you'd have to know what the original intention was. If it is a weapon, it must be made by an amazing race of....whatever. I mean, a weapon that takes over 65,000,000 years to carry out it's full purpose? :shock: I suppose you're theory of a weapon that went "Whack" is probably more sensible, though. Maybe it's original function was just to absorb DNA for use at the creators' planet or whatever? They'd definitely have to be extremely advanced to make such a thing.
Maybe a weapon/tool from some kind of immortal race? :shock:
Maybe I'm thinking too much. :?
What could it's ultimate purpose be?
Other than achieving it's perfect form via aborbing DNA, the planet's energy, and the Arbiters(Serge and theoretically Schala) which may be intended components to Lavos like Androids were to Cell.(notably a *very* similar situation in Xenogears where Elyham, the Omnigears, and the wells were intended components for Deus); maybe an interplanetary siege weapon?..
Very good points, as well. Wasn't Xenogears made by a lot of the same people as Trigger? Maybe they kinda built on that idea more for Xenogears?
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I mean, a weapon that takes over 65,000,000 years to carry out it's full purpose? :shock: I suppose you're theory of a weapon that went "Whack" is probably more sensible, though.
Technically, Lavos 'left' 4-D time on impact and, theoretically, created a discontiguous space-time, otherwise known as a "Pocket Dimension" to observe and collect info from all time periods.
Very good points, as well. Wasn't Xenogears made by a lot of the same people as Trigger? Maybe they kinda built on that idea more for Xenogears?
Yes it was and the similarities between the two games go *much* further. Faustwolf and I discussed this in this thread (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5214.0.html).
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Technically, Lavos 'left' 4-D time on impact and, theoretically, created a discontiguous space-time, otherwise known as a "Pocket Dimension" to observe and collect info from all time periods.
Oh yeah, duh. x.x
between the two games go *much* further. Faustwolf and I discussed this in this thread (http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5214.0.html).
I actually knew it, and yeah, the similarities go on and on and on with that game. That's why I'm so surprised everytime I hear someone in the compendium saying they've never played Xenogears. :shock:
Thanks for that thread, link, though. =P
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So in that case 18 is schala because they free her...
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I still of Lavos more as a cosmic animal. Just like some earth animals can create electromagnetic currents (and others can detect them), a Lavoid would be capable of creating a pocket dimension.
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I still of Lavos more as a cosmic animal. Just like some earth animals can create electromagnetic currents (and others can detect them), a Lavoid would be capable of creating a pocket dimension.
You would still be right, in a sense; Lavos, in my theory, is 'living' in a sort of bio-mechanical configuration. Which makes the most out of the biological side by an *extreme* form of mitosis(likely Lavos is an asexual being, anyways), the ability to regenerate, and the ability to 'evolve'. It, also, makes the most of out the mechanical side, namely, the ability to emulate other fiends, the ability to harness 'pure' energy, and theoretically the ability to disassociate itself from conventional space-time.
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hmm...vary similar to the Guyver then?
A weapon thats indistinguishable from an alien life form, Its power is based off that of the creatures it comes in contact with.
EDIT: AHH okay then.
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EDIT: added to previous post.
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So in that case 18 is schala because they free her...
Huh?! :?
I still of Lavos more as a cosmic animal. Just like some earth animals can create electromagnetic currents (and others can detect them), a Lavoid would be capable of creating a pocket dimension.
You would still be right, in a sense; Lavos, in my theory, is 'living' in a sort of bio-mechanical configuration. Which makes the most out of the biological side by an *extreme* form of mitosis(likely Lavos is an asexual being, anyways), the ability to regenerate, and the ability to 'evolve'. It, also, makes the most of out the mechanical side, namely, the ability to emulate other fiends, the ability to harness 'pure' energy, and theoretically the ability to disassociate itself from conventional space-time.
This is the most thought I've put into Lavos in years. :)
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Number 18 was released before cell death after that cell try to destroy the world...
So I asume that schala was n18...
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Going of on a little of a tangent--If my theory checks out; Is Lavos ~ Dragon God?
I conjectured this from reading the following passages:
The Dragonians are an evolved form of Reptites. They came to exist in the Reptite Dimension as the Reptites evolved over millions of years; they grew in close harmony with nature, fashioning their dwellings out of natural material that did not disrupt the ecosystem. They also explored the science of controlling nature, culminating in the construction of a mighty floating city called Dinopolis. At the head of the superstructure sat the Dragon God, a cybernetic machine being capable of controlling and shaping nature to its will.
Again, Lavos guided evolution to his will--so pretty similar.
The Dragon God was a machine comprised of organic living tissue the Dragonians had built in their own dimension. It's purpose was to regulate and maintain balance between the six elements of nature.
Didn't Lavos allow for manipulation of his own set of elements.
And considering that the Dragon God readily 'merged' with Lavos at the DBT according to*:
It should be noted that the Dragon God additionally serves as another component of the Time Devourer. At some unspecified date the Dragon was engulfed by Lavos in the Darkness of Time, just as Schala had been. The details of this are unknown but many have surmised this occurred during FATE’s sealing of the Dragon since the Frozen Flame (a known link to Lavos) was used in this process. After this fusion had happened the six individual dragon gods, as well as the complete merged version, were only able to appear in the timelines as illusionary projections emanating from the Darkness of Time but ultimately created by the Time Devourer.
[...]
The next one is kind of long so read the original article, here (http://www.cot.drackir.com/inquiry.htm#9). (it supports his theory)
*;one could say that the being's essences were 'mutually compatible'.
And if they were 'mutually compatible' they probably took the best of both entities and made in themselves a new entity--the Time Devourer while still possessing 'mutually exclusive' consciousnesses as did Schala. Case in point: the Dragon God's system of 'Magic' was obviously more advanced than the one Lavos possessed, one could gather Lavos adopted the system due to the fact that the Time Devourer used 'Green' elemental spells to combat Serge and co. in the DBT. And according to the latter part of the link to the article I provided:
Incidentally, because of their merger the Time Devourer can be seen to have a tail. As neither Lavos or Schala had a tail, many believe this was formed as a result of the consumption of the Dragon God. Note that even though the Dragon God was a projection, it still retained its own will and original personality. It acted on its own desires, not those of Lavos.
So in essence: Lavos+Schala(Arbiter 1--allowed consumption of Dragon God 'through' the Frozen Flame)=LavosI+Dragon God=Time Devourer+Serge(Arbiter 2--possibly allowing consumption of FATE--another cybernetic being/supercomputer which came in contact with the Frozen Flame.)=Time DevourerI+FATE?= ??? (Ends up being Deus, leaves the planet and 'dropped off' on another via the Eldridge... and starts Xenogears. (That'd be a pretty sweet scenario, although probably not for the planet.)
So, in other words the Arbiter's job is to 'decide' which characteristics stay and which go as well as serving as the 'glue' for the two entities. Serge, in addition, also had the capability, with the Chrono Cross, to divide the entities(Lavos, Schala, and the Dragon God.)--to devolve the Time Devourer back into Lavos.
This is just theory of course.
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I am curious as to if the distinction between natural and artificial, between biological and mechanical, might be a false dichotomy.
To propose an analogy; humans really aren't the far from genetic engineering. Given a hundred or two year, it is imaginable (though I'd argue unlikely) that the entire "human genome" will be the result of intentional changes on our part. Such might be termed artificial, but it is also the result of a very natural process (evolution and human enquiry). The Lavos we know and love may be artificial, but that doesn't mean he isn't natural as well, or that he had to have been constructed by an outside entity (... ooo, Lavos might have been The Entity from another planet gone bad!). Lavos might have made himself.
As for biological and mechanical, likewise humans aren't really that far away from fully integrated cybernetics. Our cells already contain some very foreign materials (mitochondria) that might not be "natural" (see Endosymbiotic theory). It isn't impossible to imagine that humans might develop cybernetic nanites that can imbed themselves into our cells to perform various functions, possibly even to perform functions otherwise impossible through our understanding of DNA and biology (imagine, for example, "lungs" that can extract oxygen from both a gas and liquid, or lungs that can extract carbon as well, removing or reducing the need for it to be present in dietary intakes). Or indeed, even something much more low key, like computer implants in our brain connecting memory to external databases (allowing us to "download" or "upload" memories). Like with the above, machines might be non-biological, but they can be integrated (indeed, it is possible for machines to reproduce and "evolve" as well, so it is possible that given a simple starting point one might develop machine based life, which would still be "biological;" bios being Greek for life, if I recall correctly).
All that is merely to state that Lavos might be both the created and the creator, the Bad Wolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_arcs_in_Doctor_Who#Bad_Wolf), to compare to a Doctor Who "character." I don't see a reason to assume that it is a "weapon gone whack" to the exclusion of it being a "cosmic animal."
(http://images.allmoviephoto.com/1999_Muppets_from_Space/animal_kermit_the_frog_fozzie_bear_miss_piggy_gonzo_muppets_from_space_001.jpg)
see? Cosmic animal ;)
Anywho, that is primarily a conceptualization matter.
A few points that I feel should be made clear, however, judging from other people's posts are as follows:
It, also, makes the most of out the mechanical side, namely, the ability to emulate other fiends, the ability to harness 'pure' energy, and theoretically the ability to disassociate itself from conventional space-time.
Emulation of others is curiously a traditionally non-mechanical trait; see Doppelganger. Machines thus far have been very poor at mimicking natural life, in the real world, but excel wonderfully when they are allowed to be machines.
Additionally, there is a long tradition of life being able to "harness" other life. At a basic material level, all animals do this. A little more rarified are leeches and the mythological vampires. Succubuses (Succcubie? Sucoobie? Doo?) are just one example of non-mechanical creatures (mythological though they are) that feed off energy (or semen, depending on how you want to interpret things). Enter into video games and Metroids loom large (though those are supposedly genetically engineered). Enter into anime and, well, Goku's Spirit Bomb (or whatever the real, not dubbed, name of that attack was) is an obvious example.
This is just to say that what you identify as "mechanical" might not be actually evidence of mechanisms.
Again, Lavos guided evolution to his will--so pretty similar.
That is debatable, as it is only clearly indicated as so in the original North American release; Lavos consciously guiding evolution is not present in the original language, so that is probably an artifact of translation.
The Dragon God was a machine comprised of organic living tissue the Dragonians had built in their own dimension. It's purpose was to regulate and maintain balance between the six elements of nature.
Didn't Lavos allow for manipulation of his own set of elements.
Two things here:
One, no, the Dragon god was not comprised of organic living tissue, it was living energy. See the game script:
The Dragon Gods were originally
a singular plasma life-form...
...A living accumulation of the
planet's energy! Originally it was a biological
machine used to control the
powers of nature in the future
society of the Reptites. In order to control the natural
energy itself, FATE divided the
one Dragon God entity up into
6 weaker plasma life-forms...
Then scattered them across
the land and sealed them away.
Their dragon-like appearances
are just pseudo-guises...
...Temporary forms they take
so that they can appear in
this dimension.
I bolded and italicized the two relevant sections. The Dragon God is living energy, and that energy is still biological in nature (how, I have no idea). What we see as the Dragon God is just a "pseudo-guise," presumably that disguise wouldn't effect the Time Devourer's form.
Second, we aren't told if Lavos allowed for the manipulation of his own "elements." We know that "Lightning," Water, Fire, and Shadow were the elements on the universe and that humans "evolved" to harness those using the planet's energy, but the distinction is made between those elements (and their source) and the magic of post-Mammon Machine Zeal. Zeal still used magic, but I don't recall there being any elemental distinction.
As a total aside, it is noted that Elements are derived from the Dragon God, which was created to control the earth's power. The 6 elements might represent earth based forces magic while the 4 elements of CT might represent universal forces (as in CT, elements are specifically placed on an interstellar level, while in CC elements are limited to the earth's energy).
So in essence: Lavos+Schala(Arbiter 1...
I am still rather doubtful that "Arbiter" status can apply in most cases, including this one. Serge was an Arbiter in Chronopolis, as established by those computer systems (not Lavos or the Frozen Flame), and quite separately he was established as an "Arbiter" by the frozen flame to determine the Time Devourer's path of evolution in that instance. It seems quite the stretch to claim that Arbiter status has special powers associated or that Schala herself was ever an "arbiter" of anything.
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I am curious as to if the distinction between natural and artificial, between biological and mechanical, might be a false dichotomy.
Maybe, but if both biological *and* mechanical processes are involved; it would make it apparently different from the two as it would appear to be a hybrid between the two and not indistinguishable.
To propose an analogy; humans really aren't the far from genetic engineering. Given a hundred or two year, it is imaginable (though I'd argue unlikely) that the entire "human genome" will be the result of intentional changes on our part. Such might be termed artificial, but it is also the result of a very natural process (evolution and human enquiry).
That's kind of what I'm proposing, only the engineering uses organic and non-organic materials to make up the being referred to as "Lavos".
The Lavos we know and love may be artificial, but that doesn't mean he isn't natural as well, or that he had to have been constructed by an outside entity (... ooo, Lavos might have been The Entity from another planet gone bad!). Lavos might have made himself.
Another theory that was my original belief up until recently--until I came upon support for a new theory.
As for biological and mechanical, likewise humans aren't really that far away from fully integrated cybernetics. Our cells already contain some very foreign materials (mitochondria) that might not be "natural" (see Endosymbiotic theory).
That theory always intrigued me; that is the same situation with plants' chloroplasts IIRC, right?
All that is merely to state that Lavos might be both the created and the creator, the Bad Wolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_arcs_in_Doctor_Who#Bad_Wolf), to compare to a Doctor Who "character." I don't see a reason to assume that it is a "weapon gone whack" to the exclusion of it being a "cosmic animal."
An interesting piece to add to your theory. I'll have to watch the series sometime. I've been meaning to ask you: Where is a good place to start?
Emulation of others is curiously a traditionally non-mechanical trait; see Doppelganger. Machines thus far have been very poor at mimicking natural life, in the real world, but excel wonderfully when they are allowed to be machines.
True, but the images of the enemies in question are displayed on screen as if they are being 'loaded', of course this could just be coincidence.
Goku's Spirit Bomb (or whatever the real, not dubbed, name of that attack was) is an obvious example.
Yep, but then again, I'm drawing much of my theory from the DBZ universe.
This is just to say that what you identify as "mechanical" might not be actually evidence of mechanisms.
Take a quick look at my previous post in this thread: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,4891.msg95105.html#msg95105
Cell was an android--so I'm deducing that so is Lavos. Being another of Toriyama's works, I'd say that the basis of my theorem is logical, though it may need pruning..
That is debatable, as it is only clearly indicated as so in the original North American release; Lavos consciously guiding evolution is not present in the original language, so that is probably an artifact of translation.
Though, I think we can both agree 'he' accelerated evolution.
One, no, the Dragon god was not comprised of organic living tissue, it was living energy. See the game script:
The Dragon Gods were originally
a singular plasma life-form...
...A living accumulation of the
planet's energy! Originally it was a biological
machine used to control the
powers of nature in the future
society of the Reptites. In order to control the natural
energy itself, FATE divided the
one Dragon God entity up into
6 weaker plasma life-forms...
Then scattered them across
the land and sealed them away.
Their dragon-like appearances
are just pseudo-guises...
...Temporary forms they take
so that they can appear in
this dimension.
Three things:
1. Plasma is not 'energy' by either definitions of the word:
- Just as solids, liquids and gases are states of matter, plasma is a state of matter. [...]
- the liquid part of the blood, lymph, and intracellular fluid in which cells are suspended.
2. I don't think we can take the Guru of Reason deductions as fact, at any rate--I'm calling into question Belthasar's character. Follow me here:
- The Guru of Life, Melchior, after the period when Lavos arises in Zeal up until, and after, being warped out of Zeal began to corrupt his purpose by making weapons that 'destroy' life.
- The Guru of Time, Gaspar, after the period when Lavos arises in Zeal up until, and after, being warped out of Zeal is put in a place where time itself is irrelevant.
and...
- The Guru of Reason, Belthasar, after the period when Lavos arises in Zeal up until, and after, being warped out of Zeal constantly falls under spells of madness and megalomania; for example: putting the world at risk to save Schala through an illogically, complex method.
3. Your quote says "biological machine" suggesting living materials where involved, not to mention one of the quotes, in my previous post, from another source said: "a machine comprised of organic living tissue". So...
Second, we aren't told if Lavos allowed for the manipulation of his own "elements." We know that "Lightning," Water, Fire, and Shadow were the elements on the universe and that humans "evolved" to harness those using the planet's energy, but the distinction is made between those elements (and their source) and the magic of post-Mammon Machine Zeal. Zeal still used magic, but I don't recall there being any elemental distinction.
As a total aside, it is noted that Elements are derived from the Dragon God, which was created to control the earth's power. The 6 elements might represent earth based forces magic while the 4 elements of CT might represent universal forces (as in CT, elements are specifically placed on an interstellar level, while in CC elements are limited to the earth's energy).
As a total aside, it is noted that Elements are derived from the Dragon God, which was created to control the earth's power. The 6 elements might represent earth based forces magic while the 4 elements of CT might represent universal forces (as in CT, elements are specifically placed on an interstellar level, while in CC elements are limited to the earth's energy).
Would you read this article (http://www.cot.drackir.com/magic.htm). (Too long to quote, explains itself.), it sums up my positions on magic as I concur with the author's theory/observations on this topic.
I am still rather doubtful that "Arbiter" status can apply in most cases, including this one. Serge was an Arbiter in Chronopolis, as established by those computer systems (not Lavos or the Frozen Flame), and quite separately he was established as an "Arbiter" by the frozen flame to determine the Time Devourer's path of evolution in that instance. It seems quite the stretch to claim that Arbiter status has special powers associated or that Schala herself was ever an "arbiter" of anything.
I am championing this theory, as it would be paramount in determining Lavos' existence as a cybernetic matrix and its purpose in general, and am in the process of gathering evidentiary support for it.
-
Very good points, BROJ. It was terribly careless of me to confuse energy and plasma. However, to my knowledge, plasma inherently can't be biological (unless we are referring to plasma as in blood plasma or cytoplasma). The ionized/unbound electrons of it would prevent it from forming complex molecules required for biological life as we understand it, wouldn't it?
Curiously, Plasma is a wonderful conductor and the Dragon God was created to conduct and control the planet's energy.
Still, Lavos and the Dragon God, from what we know of them, appear to be fundamentally different states of matter (Lavos being biological as we know it and rather solid looking, appearing only as he appears/ the dragon god being living plasma that seems to preclude biology as we know it and is able to appear at will in a disguise)
I do agree that Belthasar was off his rocker, and your curious turn about (life making death, time being timeless, reason being unreasonable) is very interesting. However, for Melchior and Gaspar, the tables could be turned as well.
Ayla tells us that one must fight to live (old man no fight, dead inside). Melchior is promoting life, then, by providing tools that allow individuals to fight (and it is in the construction of the Mammon Machine that he created something with the intent of reducing conflict but it turned out so poorly).
Gaspar was sent to the end of time, but that is also were a different sort of time flows (Time Error) and from where he is able to more objectively view time. While he was removed from normal time, he was put somewhere where he was better able to understand it.
Even Belthasar was sent to an era where technology and computers reign supreme. And what are computers if not logical (logic itself being often synonymous with reason)?
However, to note; the frozen flame can corrupt those who touch it. At some point in the construction and running of Chronopolis, it is likely that people had to touch the frozen flame. Such individuals might have been corrupted. Belthasar may have been one such individual.
As for the nature of magic, after reading the article I must still disagree with CT magic being Lavos in nature; Magic in Chrono Trigger is not primarily manipulating Lavos' energy. The entire point of Zeal creating the Mammon machine was so that the civilization would not have to rely on the energy of the planet. The sun stone, for example, was once a power source (and the elemental weapons of the pyramid palace thingy were supposed to represent the planet's power as well, if I recall correctly).
The weapons and armors brought forth from the
planet's powers of sky, dark, fire, and water were
since sealed in the northern shrine on the Queen's
orders.
What you can see on the northern continent is
its entrance, but nobody can approach it any more.
I've heard that if you were to combine
Rainbow-Colored Shell said to have existed in
the primeval era with the Sun Stone, you could
make magnificent weapons and items.
But now, for one thing, the only one with such skill
is the Philosopher of Life...
Besides, there's also Queen Zeal's order to
abandon the planet's power...
What you can see on the small southern
continent is the former Sun Temple.
We had enshrined the Sun Stone that stored up
the planet's power there, but......
Ever since the new energy came to be
used, it's been completely shut off.
Just like the northern shrine.
They say we don't need such a thing as the
energy of the old planet any more.
It seems rather clear that Zeal used to use the Planet's energy. However, this also disspells my hypothesis that CT magic might have been fundamental elements of the universe, rather than the planet.
Still, the article does provide one good point. With further development, Earth Magic in CT might have developed into a similar form as the Earth Magic of CC. However, the fact that robots have innate elemental attributes seems to indicate that innate colors are, well, not really innate (and indeed, it is rather strange that monsters use elements so often; one would wonder how they can even understand how to use them).
A few other minor points regarding that article: while Chrono and Co's magic is similar, it is noted by Zealeans as being different from their own. Also, Mystics are capable of using magic (zealeans weren't the only ones to have this ability), and Magic predates the use of the Mammon machine (and thus, the conscious direct use of Lavos' power) The loss of Zealean magic after the fall of Zeal may merely be a result of the source of what was then their power being "destroyed;" they didn't know how to use natural magic anymore and with the loss of Zeal, even Lavos' power was denied them. Note, the article claims that Sprigg is a Demi-Human; her status as a Mystic was confirmed by concept art. Additionally, Spekkio gave Frog water powers because he was a frog, not because of some innate ability.
What a weird fellow.
Being a frog, let's give him «Water!»
This's another weird one you've brought.
As you might guess since this guy's frog, he's
got "Water" power.
Side note #1: Yes, chloroplasts, to my knowledge, are also thought to have originated through endosymbioticism (I think I might have just made that particular form of the word up).
Side note #2: A good place to start watching Dr. Who is with the "new" series (http://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Who-Complete-Billie-Piper/dp/B000E41MS6/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1210186488&sr=8-3). The franchise was started back in the day, but it took a decade or so hiatus and restarted in 2005. Thus, that link will take you to the "complete first season." (I'd highly recommend renting it before buying, or seeing if it is on youtube or the BBC website; that is a good bit of change to punk down until you know it is worth it). The learning curve isn't very steep. Episodes #1 and #2 (Rose and The End of the World, respectively) are good, but not great (certainly not a waste of time). However, I am fairly convinced that anyone who watched to episode #3 (Unquiet Dead) will quickly be hooked.
Though, it is British so some phrasing might throw you (I still have no idea why anyone would eat beans and toast, or how such could be called lovely).
Side note #3: For the Lavos mimicking bosses, if the images weren't displayed on the screen, would many people have realized that these were supposed to be the bosses they had fought before?
Side note #4: Cell was an android, but if I am recalling correctly, it was also a biological creature (as opposed to the other androids, which were clearly mechanical). It is indeed a good example of machine and flesh being combined in one being. The only real difference I am attempting to state is that while Cell had a pre-defined goal and was created by an outside entity, Lavos created itself and does not have a predefined goal.
Side note #5: Yes, I'd agree that human evolution was "accelerated" (see the evolution thread for specifics), but this was caused by the Frozen Flame and may not have been... deliberate.
-
:D Interesting note: Doing a little research and I found out that the term plasma referred to in the quote may refer to the word: plasmare
v. mould, mold, shape, model, work--so to amend the quote:
The Dragon Gods were originally
a singular molded life-form...
...A living accumulation of the
planet's energy!
[...]
Where molding refers to an artificial aspect.
Touching on a topic I unintentionally skipped:
What we see as the Dragon God is just a "pseudo-guise," presumably that disguise wouldn't effect the Time Devourer's form.
The Dragon God's pseudo-guise is applied to projections in the real world(s), not the Time Devourer in the DBT, the base of operations, so to speak.
I do agree that Belthasar was off his rocker, and your curious turn about (life making death, time being timeless, reason being unreasonable) is very interesting. However, for Melchior and Gaspar, the tables could be turned as well.
Ayla tells us that one must fight to live (old man no fight, dead inside). Melchior is promoting life, then, by providing tools that allow individuals to fight (and it is in the construction of the Mammon Machine that he created something with the intent of reducing conflict but it turned out so poorly).
Gaspar was sent to the end of time, but that is also were a different sort of time flows (Time Error) and from where he is able to more objectively view time. While he was removed from normal time, he was put somewhere where he was better able to understand it.
Even Belthasar was sent to an era where technology and computers reign supreme. And what are computers if not logical (logic itself being often synonymous with reason)?
However, to note; the frozen flame can corrupt those who touch it. At some point in the construction and running of Chronopolis, it is likely that people had to touch the frozen flame. Such individuals might have been corrupted. Belthasar may have been one such individual.
Perhaps one could condense this into:
In an effort to restore their(Gurus') purpose:
Life turned to Death to preserve Life;
Reason turned to Unreason(i.e. computers can process, but not reason) to preserve Reason; and
Time(4-D) turned to Timelessness(or 5-D time) to preserve Time.
As for the nature of magic, after reading the article I must still disagree with CT magic being Lavos in nature; Magic in Chrono Trigger is not primarily manipulating Lavos' energy. The entire point of Zeal creating the Mammon machine was so that the civilization would not have to rely on the energy of the planet. The sun stone, for example, was once a power source (and the elemental weapons of the pyramid palace thingy were supposed to represent the planet's power as well, if I recall correctly).
[...]
It seems rather clear that Zeal used to use the Planet's energy. However, this also disspells my hypothesis that CT magic might have been fundamental elements of the universe, rather than the planet.
Perhaps Lavos' magic is shadow--and that the planet's natural elements, pre-Lavos, are Sky/Heaven(Air), Water, Fire, and possibly Earth--as per the ancient Greek quaternary system of Elements. So that Lavos' Magic is the shadow(composed of Shadow, Fire, Water, Sky/Heaven) factor or, as I am hypothesizing, artificial magic--Dark Force--Zealian Magic.
Note, the article claims that Sprigg is a Demi-Human; her status as a Mystic was confirmed by concept art. Additionally,
I'm going to need in-game proof to take a side in this matter.
Spekkio gave Frog water powers because he was a frog, not because of some innate ability.
What a weird fellow.
Being a frog, let's give him «Water!»
This's another weird one you've brought.
As you might guess since this guy's frog, he's
got "Water" power.
Can we really take that quote seriously? I mean, the line may have been a Japanese pun/joke. :wink:
P.S. Thanks for the info on Doctor Who. :) May I make a recommendation in return, specifically, Death Note? This anime is different than the standard mold and I think you'll like it. Like Doctor Who, however, it takes a few(3-4) episodes to get "hooked", but all-in-all it's a good anime, albeit some of the humor may be quirky. I'd recommend the Viz(as they actually did a good job this time...) version; you can buy the DVD sets -or- follow this link (http://pimpanime.com/DeathNote.html). Be sure to check this page from time to time as the dub is ongoing.
-
*bump* Further discussion?
-
Alright just stopping in to say something, I don't want to interrupt the great debate you two are having, but I just wanted to say that these posts have definitely expanded my view on this subject far beyond what I previously had thought. It is my deepest desire to make great posts like both of you, but sadly enough all my ideas are based purely on speculation. I don't post often, but I read a lot and I hope you guys can keep this going.
On a side note, I have watched Dr. Who and read all of the Death Note issues, both very good. Kira rocks and when I found out about BAD WOLF I was pleasantly amused. Well I hope you two continue on this topic. I will be watching in excitement.
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The Dragon God's pseudo-guise is applied to projections in the real world(s), not the Time Devourer in the DBT, the base of operations, so to speak.
Quite true, but we don't know what the Dragon God's actual form is. The appearance as a Dragon is only a disguise, not a reflection of reality. Therefore, we don't know what its form is so any conclusions based on that form are dubious. It is a stretch to say that the TD has a tail, then, because the Dragon God had a tail.
To note, we don't really know if Lavos had a tail; we never did see it rear.
Perhaps Lavos' magic is shadow--and that the planet's natural elements, pre-Lavos, are Sky/Heaven(Air), Water, Fire, and possibly Earth--as per the ancient Greek quaternary system of Elements. So that Lavos' Magic is the shadow(composed of Shadow, Fire, Water, Sky/Heaven) factor or, as I am hypothesizing, artificial magic--Dark Force--Zealian Magic.
Meh. Shadow Magic corresponds rather strongly to "Black" elemental magic. Not sure how that translates into artificial. Also, why would it be the Greek System? Might not the Japanese system of elements make more sense?
The element of "void" (alternately "Heaven") is an interesting one as it seems like it could reflect both Magus's Magic and Crono's (though "Air" is another Japanese element that could fit Crono, especially in that Crono was free to change the future and air represents freedom).
I wonder if we should add Yin and Yang into such a discussion. The entire series seems to have a heavy dualistic nature. Lavos and the Entity, Heaven and Dark magic, all the elements, FATE and the Dragon God, two dimensions, Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame, Kid and Harle, the Time Devourer and Schala, Love and Hate, etc.
I'm going to need in-game proof to take a side in this matter.
In game, not gonna happen. But if I recall correctly, this was in the Missing Piece artwork. To be fair, Sprigg wasn't identified as a Demi-Human in the game either.
Can we really take that quote seriously? I mean, the line may have been a Japanese pun/joke. :wink:
It is debatable, true enough, but I don't generally understand Japanese humor enough to even guess.
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To note, we don't really know if Lavos had a tail; we never did see it rear.
Fair enough. :)
Meh. Shadow Magic corresponds rather strongly to "Black" elemental magic. Not sure how that translates into artificial. Also, why would it be the Greek System? Might not the Japanese system of elements make more sense?
The element of "void" (alternately "Heaven") is an interesting one as it seems like it could reflect both Magus's Magic and Crono's (though "Air" is another Japanese element that could fit Crono, especially in that Crono was free to change the future and air represents freedom).
I wonder if we should add Yin and Yang into such a discussion. The entire series seems to have a heavy dualistic nature. Lavos and the Entity, Heaven and Dark magic, all the elements, FATE and the Dragon God, two dimensions, Dreamstone and the Frozen Flame, Kid and Harle, the Time Devourer and Schala, Love and Hate, etc.
I've actually been 'tearing' apart my hypothesis lately in an attempt to create a more logical(if I could use such a word in this instance), systematic, and balanced, structure of magic--and here's what I have so far...
Heaven(Cosmos--Order)
components thereof:
Judgement(White component in terms of Dragonian Magic):The ability establish creation or annihilation.
Skills contained: Life, Luminaire
Flux: The ability to generate a one way connection(flow) between two or more points. Generally skills of this nature generate a 'push' or shockwave.
Skills contained(gonna use FF's pseudo-Japanese magic terms hereon): Thunder, Thundara
Field: The ability to contain aforementioned powers to a specified area to maintain order.
Skills contained: Thundara, Luminaire
vs
Shadow(Chaos--n/identity, hence artificial; remember, though, even chaos can appear to have order, so this is why Magus can seemingly use Heaven skills)
special note: the reason combined elements turn shadow in nature is because the combined elements have lost their individuality or identity and have become chaotic(not defined) in nature.
components thereof:
Pseudo-Identity: The ability to temporarily resolve the ambiguity of Chaos(creation *and* annihilation) into the archetype of another element.
skills contained: Fira, Blizzara, Thundara
Anti-Flux/Pull--Gravity: the ability to use the antithesis of flow and create a 'tug' to bring something(s)(ex. two points) closer.
skills contained: Dark Bomb, Dark Matter
Anti-Field: the ability to repel powers from a certain point.
skills contained: Magic Barrier
Fire('Break-Down'/Disintegration)
components thereof:
Disintegration: the ability to break-down a force or entity.
skills contained: Fire, Fira, Flare(though it's effect is more like Melt)
Anti-Alteration: the ability to prevent specified changes in the structure or nature of an entity by providing an opposing force.
skills contained: Protect
vs
Water('Build-Up'/Integration)
components thereof:
Integration: the ability to build-up a force or entity.
skills contained: Water, Blizzard, Watera, Blizzara
Alteration: the ability to modify the structure or nature of an entity.
skills contained: Cure, Cura, Blizzard, Blizzara, Haste
In game, not gonna happen. But if I recall correctly, this was in the Missing Piece artwork. To be fair, Sprigg wasn't identified as a Demi-Human in the game either.
Suppose it's up to the viewer's taste's then I guess; that is until we know more about Sprigg's past.
It is debatable, true enough, but I don't generally understand Japanese humor enough to even guess.
Neither do I; just throwing it out there.
-
Heaven(Cosmos--Order)
components thereof:
Judgement(White component in terms of Dragonian Magic):The ability establish creation or annihilation.
Skills contained: Life, Luminaire
Flux: The ability to generate a one way connection(flow) between two or more points. Generally skills of this nature generate a 'push' or shockwave.
Skills contained(gonna use FF's pseudo-Japanese magic terms hereon): Thunder, Thundara
Field: The ability to contain aforementioned powers to a specified area to maintain order.
Skills contained: Thundara, Luminaire
vs
Shadow(Chaos--n/identity, hence artificial; remember, though, even chaos can appear to have order, so this is why Magus can seemingly use Heaven skills)
special note: the reason combined elements turn shadow in nature is because the combined elements have lost their individuality or identity and have become chaotic(not defined) in nature.
components thereof:
Pseudo-Identity: The ability to temporarily resolve the ambiguity of Chaos(creation *and* annihilation) into the archetype of another element.
skills contained: Fira, Blizzara, Thundara
Anti-Flux/Pull--Gravity: the ability to use the antithesis of flow and create a 'tug' to bring something(s)(ex. two points) closer.
skills contained: Dark Bomb, Dark Matter
Anti-Field: the ability to repel powers from a certain point.
skills contained: Magic Barrier
Fire('Break-Down'/Disintegration)
components thereof:
Disintegration: the ability to break-down a force or entity.
skills contained: Fire, Fira, Flare(though it's effect is more like Melt)
Anti-Alteration: the ability to prevent specified changes in the structure or nature of an entity by providing an opposing force.
skills contained: Protect
vs
Water('Build-Up'/Integration)
components thereof:
Integration: the ability to build-up a force or entity.
skills contained: Water, Blizzard, Watera, Blizzara
Alteration: the ability to modify the structure or nature of an entity.
skills contained: Cure, Cura, Blizzard, Blizzara, Haste
To note, Magus' ability to use "Heaven," "Fire," and "Water" spells may just reflect his abilities as a magic user, not necessarily Shadow/Dark Magic itself. It is slightly curious that he can use Ice 2 but not Water 2.
I am curious, do Double and Tripple Tech's have elemental associations? Dark Eternal seems like it would still be a Shadow/Dark spell, but Omega Flares seems like it is Fire Damage (with the combination of two doses of Shadow Magic, it seems like it should be more chaotic, under your model). Then there is Fire Zone likewise includes "Chasos" but still comes out Fire. Life Line seems Water/Heaven, but still has Chaos. Twister... I'm not sure.
In Crono Cross, to note, "Delta Force" is white elemental, while in Crono Trigger it has Dark/Shadow effects.
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Few Revisions:
Heaven(Cosmos--Order)
components thereof:
Judgement(White component in terms of Dragonian Magic):The ability establish creation or annihilation.
Skills contained: Life, Luminaire
Flux: The ability to generate a one way connection(flow) between two or more points. Generally skills of this nature generate a 'push' or shockwave.
Skills contained(gonna use FF's pseudo-Japanese magic terms hereon): Thunder, Thundara
Seal: The ability to contain aforementioned powers to a specified area to maintain order.
Skills contained: Thundara, Luminaire
vs
Shadow(Chaos--n/identity, hence artificial; remember, though, even chaos can appear to have order, so this is why Magus can seemingly use Heaven skills)
special note: the reason combined elements turn shadow in nature is because the combined elements have lost their individuality or identity and have become chaotic(not defined) in nature.
components thereof:
Pseudo-Identity: The ability to temporarily resolve the ambiguity of Chaos(creation *and* annihilation) into the archetype of another element.
skills contained: Fira, Blizzara, Thundara, Magic Barrier
Gravity: the ability to use the antithesis of flux and create a 'tug' to bring something(s)(ex. two points) closer.
skills contained: Dark Bomb, Dark Matter
Barrier: the ability to repel powers from a certain point.
skills contained: Magic Barrier
Fire('Break-Down'/Disintegration)
components thereof:
Disintegration: the ability to break-down a force or entity.
skills contained: Fire, Fira, Flare(though it's effect is more like Melt)
Protection: the ability to prevent specified changes in the structure or nature of an entity by providing an opposing force.
skills contained: Protect
vs
Water('Build-Up'/Integration)
components thereof:
Integration: the ability to build-up a force or entity.
skills contained: Water, Blizzard, Watera, Blizzara
Alteration: the ability to modify the structure or nature of an entity.
skills contained: Cure, Cura, Blizzard, Blizzara, Haste
Further explanation derived from a discussion with ZeaLity:
Heaven(Cosmos) governs the existence of matter, in other words substance, while Shadow(Chaos) governs 'raw' energy. The balance between these is critical as it governs the Matter/Antimatter<-->Energy(Creation/Annihilation) relationship between the two. Taking that into consideration the Fire and Water Relationship is sort of a partition on the aforementioned relationship between Cosmos and Chaos; the balance between these two govern the structure and behavior of matter/antimatter and energy.
To note, Magus' ability to use "Heaven," "Fire," and "Water" spells may just reflect his abilities as a magic user, not necessarily Shadow/Dark Magic itself. It is slightly curious that he can use Ice 2 but not Water 2.
Meh, too coincidental. :? Magus's use of ice oriented water and neglect of aqueous water may only be a personal preference due to Ice's more destructive nature; I doubt he is, at any rate, 'unable' to use aqueous water magic.
I am curious, do Double and Tripple Tech's have elemental associations?
The combos have lost their individual elemental characteristics and become 'undefined'--Chaotic.
Twister... I'm not sure.
Shadow
In Crono Cross, to note, "Delta Force" is white elemental, while in Crono Trigger it has Dark/Shadow effects.
Ah, but magic in Chrono Trigger involves manipulating the laws/forces of the Chronoverse, while magic in Chrono Cross involves 'drawing' upon forces of nature--sort of a passive aggressive form of magic as opposed to CT's active manipulation of forces.
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Just a few brief bits of info that I thought might be interesting, though they are a bit of an aside (though the discussion seems to be turning more to magic than to Lavos). I found reference to 7 elements (which doesn't really relate to Chrono Trigger, but it does to Chrono Cross):
In the philosophy of the Seven Chakras there are correspondences to the five elements as shared by both Hinduism and Buddhism as well as two other elements:
Sahasrara (Crown): Thought/Space
Ajña (Third Eye): Light/Dark
Vishuddhi (Throat): Ether/Sound
Anahata (Heart): Air
Manipura (Navel): Fire
Svadhisthana (Sacral): Water
Muladhara (Root): Earth
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element#Classical_elements_in_the_Seven_Chakras)
Also, Chinese elements remind me of those books in Zeal (water summons wind, wind makes first dance, or whatever) that granted access to the secret studies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing#Generating
The common memory jogs to help remember which order the phases are in are:
Wood feeds Fire;
Fire creates Earth;
Earth bears Metal;
Metal carries Water;
Water nourishes Wood.
Still... CT elements defy being understood in a classical manner.
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I don't like the "living spaceship" theory too much. Lavos is clearly a organism that can reproduce (Lavos Spawns on Death Peak).
I never looked at Lavos as "living", but rather an artificial intelligence(a weapon/research vehicle ala Deus-Xenogears) so it's not much of a stretch to think that 'his' shell could be a space/time vehicle capable of sterilizing an entire planet(seriously do you think an organism can shoot massive amounts of pure energy from 'his' back? :wink:). Take a look at Lavos' original design and cell first form from DBZ(one of Toriyama's other works):
(http://ryoga.heypoorplayer.org/chrono/images/pre_lavos.png)(http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dragonball-z/Images/Transformations/CellImperfect1.gif)
it's zoomed out and has more of a mechanical feel than the later organic adaptation. And notice how he looks like cell's first form ; he could be 'devouring' the entity/entity's energy just like cell did with the other androids in an attempt to evolve.(a possible crossover, hmm..?)
Not to mention, just like Lavos, Cell used 'other' organisms to further his evolution as well. (the similarities are endless...)
This may be off topic,but have you ever realized that the Chrono Trigger characters fit perfectly in the Dragon Ball Z Universe.
:P
It's almost to perfect if you ask me.
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This may be off topic,but have you ever realized that the Chrono Trigger characters fit perfectly in the Dragon Ball Z Universe.
:P
It's almost to perfect if you ask me.
The art certainly fits in, but that is because the character designer worked on both. But the problem with drawing paralells between the two is that similarity of form does not necessitate similarity of substance. That is, they look the same but are quite different beyond mere appearances.
For example, the Dragon Ball series was heavily influenced by Journey to the West. Tony Stark may be Iron Man, but Goku is Monkey King. Now I'm not an expert of Journey to the West or Japanese culture in general, but I am not seeing any influence of the novel in the game.
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DBZ characters are far too Over-powered compared to their CT 'cousins'... i mean, almost each of them can destroy a planet!! In CT, even Lavos did only superficial damage to the planet when it surfaced in 1999AD..
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Did anyone here ever watch Star Trek: The Next Generation? There was an episode where this sentient alien thing, named Gomtuu, was wandering around space, the last of its kind, and a guest aboard the Enterprise developed a telepathic bond with it. Check this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_Man_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) to see a picture of what it looks like. It looks REMARKABLY LIKE LAVOS. Or should I say Lavos looks remarkably like it, since the episode was made years before Chrono Trigger was.
In the episode, the guy with the bond with Gomtuu was transported inside it. There he could breath and watch the stars and talk with Gomtuu and whatnot. This got me thinking; what if the outside was still the body but the inside was like the brain? Unlike our anatomy, the brain could defend itself. In the Stargate series the aliens are really just little parasitic creatures that crawl inside us and control us. This would be a step up from that. So, the shell is part of the body, the inside is part of the brain, where the real genetic development would take place. The spawn all look the same from the outside but it's the inside that really changes.
I don't think that it IS a cybernetic organism but it BECAME one. His first form in the final battle is the Dragon Tank, a mechanical thing. Then it's the Guardian and 2 Bits, which seems to be the template for his final form. The apex of human evolution (the future) is a pretty good place to look for a superior being to model yourself after/assimilate into your DNA. Fusing machines with organic DNA was probably the most efficient model it could use. That's why I think the inside of Lavos looks the way it does.