Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Magic, Elements, and Technology => Topic started by: jono on September 25, 2007, 11:26:31 pm
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Well this is s theory I was thinking about the other day, just wondering what people think before building on it to create a real scenario that could have occoured. If people poke holes through this idea then I wont worry about it :)
Reasoning behind my Theory
Recently I had a thought about the rise of Porre as a major military force and the consequent fall of the kingdom of Gardia. In the compendium's encyclopedia I stumbled on the following statement which is in regards to Porre's sudden technological advancement.
These technological wonders might have been introduced from the future by an intervening force, which would satisfy the requirement that the help originated from outside the flow of history.{1}
First, this illustrates the point that the 'influence from outside of the normal flow of time' does not necessarily have to be an individual or group of people, but could be an item, technology or other powerful knowledge (magic?).
However the statement makes the point that because the influence is from outside the normal flow of time, it may involve time travel from the future (because time travel was technologically not possible before 1000AD).
This is where my thought differed, my idea is that perhaps Porre comes into some ancient past knowledge that allows it to become a major military force. This ancient knowledge would have remained hidden if not for others who had accidentally changed history which satisfies the help from outside the normal flow of time.
Kato: "Porre had some kind of intervention or help originating outside of the original flow of history." {1}
This statement seems to me deliberately worded to exclude a major independent event occouring specifically to enhance Porre's power. The words "original flow of history" to me refer to the history before Crono and party went on their quest. With this in mind the statement could then mean that the 'intervention from outside' may have been a side effect of Crono's adventure that affected 'the original flow of history'.
So what I am getting at is that perhaps the cause of the fall of Gardia was a side effect of the actions of Crono and his party in a past era.
My theory
As explained above, my theory is based on the idea that Crono and party (or Magus) may have accidentally taken actions that effected history so that something of great importance survived and helped Porre to become a military power.
The obvious place to start is a place in the past where more powerful technology and knowledge (than in 1000AD) existed, my choice being Zeal. It can be seen that the inhabitants of Zeal placed great importance on writing and recording information, all the cities have many book shelves full of articles. There are also libraries and what seem like scholars reading and cataloging within these libraries (this point is reliant on my memory but I'm sure that there is at least one library in Zeal).
I believe that either Magus or Crono's party in some way caused some of the inhabitants of Zeal to hide/protect/store their treasured knowledge in such a way that this ancient library/archive of information could survive that Fall of Zeal and the 13,000 years afterwards.
As some parts of Zeal are seen in 1000AD (forest ruins/sealed pyramid), I believe that the place or containers that the ancient technology/information is stored in may also have survived and may be accessible to the people of Porre. This is pure speculation but perhaps the building on the inaccessible isle in the lower right of the Zeal islands could have been a library which may have fallen in the area of 1000AD Porre, if protected in some way some of the books may have survived.
I am unsure of what of exactly what the technology could be, where/how Porre may have stumbled on it, what Crono or Magus did to cause the survival of the information. But maybe there is some grain of information in the Chrono Trigger universe that could be interpreted to allow more details to be explored.
Final Words
Well unfortunately I'm not going to get time to go through and find instances that could help back up this theory so I'm just putting it forward as is, maybe someone will notice some detail that may credit it or completely discount it.
I haven't really presented this as well as I'd hoped. Please note that I'm not putting forward something that I believe should be taken as the absolute truth. This is a theory, maybe possible but really just speculation.
Thanks for reading, criticism and comments welcome :).
Sources.
1. Article- The rise of Porre: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/The_Rise_of_Porre.html
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two words
red rock.
we had actually yhtough about this.. and we used choras.. instead of porre in a chron ostyle online game..((forum based)) guardia did not fall.. but if the porre found a stash of the red rock used in zeal and a few scripts about it.. there is much they could do with it
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Sounds plausible to me, Jono. I figure that the Fall of Guardia could occur slightly differently in various dimensions.
You might also try looking not into the past for the cause, but the future. As Lucca says in her letter to Kid:
"...I worry that someone might seek revenge on us for what we did. I have had a constant dread in my heart that someone in our new future will travel back in time, just like we did, and try and kill or capture my friends and me."
I've always interpreted that quote as indicating Chrono Brake would feature some uber bad dude/lady from the non-Lavos dimension wrecking the time line, perhaps even leading Porre him-or-herself to serve some ingeniously evil end. However, it might refer to Lynx, the Time Devourer, or even FATE for all I know.
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"...I worry that someone might seek revenge on us for what we did. I have had a constant dread in my heart that someone in our new future will travel back in time, just like we did, and try and kill or capture my friends and me."
I've always took this quote to be a reference to Lynx's actions at the orphanage. But I guess it is also possible that it could point to the cause of Guardia's fall.
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Thats just a little so-so explanation to give the player a better impression of what happened to Lucca. No one really travelled back in time to kill her. Lynx killed her in his present timelime, he didn't travel through time for it.
Also Crono and Marle were killed by the Porre army when they crushed Guardia, and I doubt the Porre army was able to time travel.
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Actually there is no proof that Crono and Marle did pass away, it is possible, however it is also completely possible that they survived the fall of Gaurdia. Have a look at this article:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Fall_of_Guardia_%28Details_of%29.html
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I agree in Chrono Cross the hint is given multiple times that they're still alive. But there's also a hint given that they're dead. Lucca says at Opassa Beach that they no longer exist in this world. That's actually pretty much all the evidence you need to confirm they're all dead.
Why they gave the hint that they might still be alive, beats me. Looks like Square wasn't thinking here.
But it would be very rare would they have survived the attack on Guardia. And with Lucca herself saying they no longer exist, it pretty much means they're dead.
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Do they appear on both another world and home world? If not then re-read what you said say "Doesn't exist in THIS world". It could possibly say that they're not alive in that current world but are in another one. Then again, I really have no clue how they would project themselves like that.
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If Marle dies, what the hell happens to Doan and her other descendants?
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If Marle dies, what the hell happens to Doan and her other descendants?
What do you think... They would all simply disappear
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"...I worry that someone might seek revenge on us for what we did. I have had a constant dread in my heart that someone in our new future will travel back in time, just like we did, and try and kill or capture my friends and me."
I've always took this quote to be a reference to Lynx's actions at the orphanage. But I guess it is also possible that it could point to the cause of Guardia's fall.
But when has Lynx ever traveled back in time?
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Do they appear on both another world and home world? If not then re-read what you said say "Doesn't exist in THIS world". It could possibly say that they're not alive in that current world but are in another one. Then again, I really have no clue how they would project themselves like that.
Hmm okay they only appear in Home World. But Lucca says they don't exist in this timeline anymore.
I don't how to interpret that, did they die or did they just disappear from the Home World timeline?
And is Home World even a timeline itself?
A screenshot:
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/Bridgeman_2006/Lucca.png)
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Hmm, I'd say the topic has just run away from its original purpose. o.o
So, back to the rise of Porre, I'd like to add something that might be interesting (or not).
Once, I spent some time analysing the maps of CT. When I compared the maps of both 1000AD and 2300AD, I thought the Sun Palace ruins seemed to be located on the same place where Porre would be.
Considering that's a fact, the Sun Palace would probably have been buried right below Porre for ages, since the fall of Zeal. In a new timeline, Porre might have discovered it and developed various researches with the Moon Stone and all the technology found there.
Full map of 1000AD (http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/b/bd/Present_%28Forest%29.png)
Full map of 2300AD (http://www.chronocompendium.com/images/wiki/1/14/2300_A.D..png)
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Well, I'm not sure if it was referenced in CC, but didn't they say in RD that Viper Manor was built over the ruins of Zeal, and the last fight took place there?
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Well, I'm not sure if it was referenced in CC, but didn't they say in RD that Viper Manor was built over the ruins of Zeal, and the last fight took place there?
That's only in RD, and Viper Manor is distinct from the Empire of Porre/just Porre in both games anyway. However, Luccia does mention that Grobyc's StrongArm (found in Chronopolis) was excavated near some ruins:
Luccia:
I cannot believe dis...!
It is an ancient super veapon.
I do recall my brotter
talking about dis.
...About a super veapon that vas
excavated near an ancient ruin.
According to him, dere vere not
enough parts to complete it,
but dis shows othervise.
Dis vould have been
Grobyc's exclusive veapon.
I must bring Grobyc here.
Grobyc:
This-cannot-be...
This-is-the-ancient-super
weapon-that-was-in
development-in-Porre.
But-what-is-it-doing-here?
It-looks-complete.
Could the StrongArm have been excavated in the Sun Palace, discovered by Porre as Nickolz suggests? This would be kind of ironic; Porre would find there the "past" version of the Sun Stone, while the "future" version that they also found at some point was taken back from them by Crono's party.
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Porre mayor had the sun stone at one point remember. There no telling how long they had it(at most 400years) or what they learned from it.
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You know, that's, like, exactly what I said.
Except Porre may have even found the past version of the Sun Stone (the one that has yet to be found by Crono in 2300 A.D.) by Chrono Cross' time.
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Bringing this up makes it weird Porre attacked Guardia in itself. I guess they did acquire powerful weapons, either with the Sun Stone or other manners, and became hungry for power. But if you help that woman in 600 AD, the mayor of Porre in 1000 AD becomes a niceguy.
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You know, that's, like, exactly what I said.
Except Porre may have even found the past version of the Sun Stone (the one that has yet to be found by Crono in 2300 A.D.) by Chrono Cross' time.
Whoops missed the end of that post.
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I'd just like to say that it's great the way this idea has been developed, I missed most of it but I'll comment properly later on.
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This sounds good.
Porre Artifact Theory
Jono, Nickolz, Chrono'99
Chrono Cross and the events of Chrono Trigger suggest that Crono's meddling may have helped Porre gain technology or power it would not have had in the Lavos Timeline.
1. Crono's actions result in the introduction of a charged Sun Stone into the world of 1000 A.D. Following that year, Porre may have acquired the Sun Stone or discovered the past Sun Stone as well.
2. Cross notes that Porre is apparently excavating ancient ruins, which are the source of Grobyc's StrongArm device.
Luccia:
I cannot believe dis...!
It is an ancient super veapon.
I do recall my brotter
talking about dis.
...About a super veapon that vas
excavated near an ancient ruin.
According to him, dere vere not
enough parts to complete it,
but dis shows othervise.
Dis vould have been
Grobyc's exclusive veapon.
I must bring Grobyc here.
Grobyc:
This-cannot-be...
This-is-the-ancient-super
weapon-that-was-in
development-in-Porre.
But-what-is-it-doing-here?
It-looks-complete.
Perhaps these expeditions are motivated by legend of the Frozen Flame, or something else. In any event, this action may have somehow been caused by the adventure in Chrono Trigger; for instance, those who saw the Sun Stone in Porre may have been motivated to search for artifacts like it. Porre may have even found the past Sun Stone during its excavations. Comparing the maps of 2300 A.D. and 1000 A.D., the Sun Palace lies near Porre's former location. However, it is important to note that the world of 2300 A.D. is very continentally different from the eras of 600 A.D. and 1000 A.D.
In conclusion, these artifacts of Zeal can be construed as foreign to the timeline, a condition Masato Kato assigns whatever caused the Fall of Guardia following Chrono Trigger.
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Well, what do you know. The Porre Artifact theory already exists in name, but it doesn't include this information. I've added it to:
http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/The_Rise_of_Porre.html#Porre_Artifacts
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I have a more simple explaination to offer. I don't have any evidence, save for some text in one of CT's endings.
1. Crono and Co. defeat Lavos
2. They come back to 1000 A.D. and say their hellos to everyone
3. They attend the Midnight Parade at Leene Square
4. By talking to some of the characters, you learn that everyone and their brother knows that Crono and Co. saved the future.
Its possible that more details of their adventures leaked out (such as the time travel thing) and Porre felt threatened by such power. They may have demanded more details about time travel and the gates, but were probably told "the gates are closed forever, don't worry about it." Fearing that this perceived and misunderstood ability to alter time gave Guardia an incredible militaristic advantage, Porre began a full scale invasion to crush Guardia and "ensure" its own survival.
So there, I said it. =)
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Yes...
But I am sure that they won't able to destroy Guardia only with their people.Perhaps Porre really found more acient weapons in that excavation but the posivilities of this are 1 of 100000. However it's inpossible to understad all by simple saying that in chrono cross just could be more than one dimension.
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This always got me, Porre becoming an overnight (ok oversequel) superpower. I just didn't see it when I was playing through Chrono Trigger. Obviously people will lust for more power, but it's quite a trick to get a large group of people all together on something like that. What kind of motives do we know of that would cause this seemingly change in cultural philosophy?
Or did the developers just not want Guardia to be the bad guys and drew a new superpower out of a hat?
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Well Porre was just a little area in Chrono Trigger, but because of the new future, time was altered to allow Porre to become a huge nation, equally powerful (if not moreso) than Guardia Kingdom.
You see, because Lavos was destroyed and the Day of Lavos never occurred, Chronopolis was created in 2400 AD. The counter-time experiment was created and it eventually hurled Chronopolis to the Ice Age, roughly 7000-9000 BC (I can't remember the exact details of time). Through that event, El Nido was CREATED, and the FATE mother computer of Chronopolis tried very hard to keep El Nido isolated from the outside world, in order to preserve the timeline. In order to keep universal harmony, Dinopolis was pulled from an alternate timeline. However, Chronopolis and Dinopolis warred with each other.
(Note: Dinopolis was the Reptite-reality counterpart to Chronopolis. It held 65 million years worth of Reptite-dimension technology, which was quite different from the 65 million years worth of Human-dimension technology. The Reptite-dimension technology included a bio-organic living supercomputer known that became the Six Dragons, as well as powerful, magic-like Elements.)
However, several hundred years before 1000 AD Porre found it's way to and 'discovered' El Nido. They likewise discovered Elements and similar pieces of technology from the Reptite-dimension, effectively altering time and allowing the new and powerful technology to grow their nation into the Porre we witness in Chrono Cross.
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The Sun Stone? That is incredibly unlikely to have influenced the timeline.
While it is a powerful artifact, there are several problems with assuming that it could have changed the course of history. First, even if Porre found the 1000 AD "Sun Stone" (to note, Crono & Co used the 2300 AD Sun Stone), it wasn't really the Sun Stone. It was a partially charged Moon Stone. The question is if the Moon Stone is like a battery (partially charge it and you can use the charge even if it isn't full) or if it is like a nuclear reaction (it has to reach critical mass before it does anything fun).
Second, even assuming Porre obtained the Sun Stone, would they have even realized what it was capable of? People have known about lead for ages, but it was only after the discovery of radiation that we learned that lead is so good at blocking it. Likewise, oil was well known throughout much of human history, but only with the advent of the internal combustion engine was it even possible to apply oil for locomotive purposes.
Third, its primary purpose in Zeal (and even for Crono & Co) was as an Energy Source. Thus, in order to utilize it, Porre would have needed to have been able to extract that energy (plausible, as Lucca was able to do so with 1000 AD tech), but it would have also needed such exotic energy. Give a rural tribal village in Africa a nuclear power plant and they'll have access to more energy than they can imagine, but that doesn't suddenly turn them into a regional superpower. Energy Sources have one purpose; to provide power for those objects that require it. Before the Sun Stone could have influence Porre, Porre would need to have developed technology that required levels of Energy that only the Sun Stone could have practically provided. However, Porrean tech appears to be fairly primitive, on a near steam-punk level. Their energy needs do not seem to necessitate a power source like the Sun Stone.
Fourth, the secondary purpose of the Sun Stone is in its ability to form very nice alloys. Unfortunately, it appears that the only individual aware of this is Melchior. If Porre had Melchior working for them, then the Sun Stone becomes a moot point; Melchior is that influence outside the normal flow of time.
Zealean technology, on the other hand, is a very interesting possibility but I am afraid you haven't thought out the implications fully. Saying that Zealean technology is responsible for the rise of Porre is like saying that the answer to the question of "the chicken or the egg" is "coq au vin." The discovery of Zealean Technology must inherently occur after the influence that lead to the Rise of Porre, it cannot be that influence itself. If Zealean technology was sufficient to change the course of history and cause the Rise of Porre, then in the original timeline Porre must not have discovered it. The question is, then, what influenced Porre in such a manner that they discovered and began to unearth Zealean technology?
Zealean artifacts could be construed as foreign to the timeline, but they cannot satisfy Masato Kato's remarks; they are effects, not causes. There must be some other influence foreign to the original timeline that even led Porre to discover the Zealean Artifacts.
I am with Boo on this; the cause of the Rise of Porre must be in the rise of El Nido (though I disagree that Elements influenced that rise, as FATE would have been largely working against allowing those out into the wide world... unless Records of Fate accompanied Elements). But the very fact that El Nido existed shifted the political landscape significantly. In the pre-time-crash timeline, the Acacia Dragoons existed in the Porrean region at least up until around 1000 AD. In the post-time-crash timeline, the Acacia Dragoons moved to El Nido fairly early on. This left a power vacuum in the Porrean region, Porre could have then been able to expand, by expanding it might have gained access to sites where Zealean technology rested under the ground (such as the would-be site of Viper Manor, if only the Acacia Dragoons were still there to have built it).
Hmm okay they only appear in Home World. But Lucca says they don't exist in this timeline anymore.
I don't how to interpret that, did they die or did they just disappear from the Home World timeline?
And is Home World even a timeline itself?
Sort of. It appears that the Chronoverse is not a fractal multiverse. That is, every decision does not cause the universe to branch into two separate dimensions in which both decisions occur. Multiple dimensions seem to be able to exist, but the exact nature of these dimensions are difficult to determine (did they split from a single dimension or are they all unique from beginning to end and just happen to have similar elements?). But regardless, a timeline is the particular form that a single dimension takes. It is kind of like playdoh; the dimension is the playdoh itself, but the timeline is the shape that the playdoh has been molded into. If you change the timeline, the dimension remains the same, just as if you had made a bird out of playdoh but then changed it into a snake. The playdoh is still the same playdoh, but the shape has changed.
However, in CC, something went amiss. The Timeline was changed but instead of replacing the old one, it creates a new dimension. The one ball of playdoh somehow became two separate balls of playdoh, each with similar but different shapes.
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"Do they appear on both another world and home world? If not then re-read what you said say "Doesn't exist in THIS world". It could possibly say that they're not alive in that current world but are in another one. Then again, I really have no clue how they would project themselves like that." cough Epoch cough End of Time cough. Excuse me but I guess the other force must be giving me the caughs.
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They do appear both in Home and Another. They have a much bigger influence in Home World however.
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It doesn't really help that we don't see much of Porre in CT, which is why we mistakenly might believe that it's just an irrelevant little town.
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Porre mayor had the sun stone at one point remember. There no telling how long they had it(at most 400years) or what they learned from it.
Porre Mayor: You're interested in the Moon Stone?
Well, someone simply left it here.
Retranslation:
Porre Mayor: Darkness Stone? Ah, if you mean that, a young traveler left it here.
Sounds like the Sun Stone just recently came into Porre's possession. He didn't seem too attached to it, and neither did anyone else in the household, so I don't think they studied it too much.
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Lynx was influenced by FATE, which had vast knowledge of everything that happened. FATE came from the future, and was the one that indirectly killed Lucca.
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It isn't confirmed that Lucca was killed by FATE or Lynx... or anyone, for that matter.
Admittedly, she probably was, but Kato left himself enough room to justifiably use her in a future game.
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Its kinda like the Final Dragon. You killed it's plasma-being, but it's true self was absorbed by the TD a long while ago.
If the CC split Schala from the TD, then why cant the Dragons have been separated from the TD some form or another as well? eh?
Edit: I mean its kinda like it in a "Not probably but theres just enough room to change that in the future"
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Maybe because of being absorbed. Different case than Schala's, who is part of the being, but not absorbed into it.
So in short, there was no hope for the Dragon God in being freed.
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absorbed, merged... I would use these 2 interchangably... who actually knows how the Final Dragon was morphed in with the TD... if it was absorbed (destructively) then its destruction would be immenent and there would be no ability for it to create "Plasma beings" of itself....
on the contrast if it was interjoined with the TD in a similar was as Schala... then maybe it is still out there?
or what about all the other stuff the TD took in?
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When did the Dragon God get absorbed by the TD? Wasn't it just split up and sealed away by FATE?
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Yes, FATE did seal them, though they weren't the real ones, as Belthasar tells in Terra Tower, as well that they were absorbed long ago.
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They were the real ones, but they'd also already been absorbed. Either this was a bit of an oversight, Kato wasn't entirely clear on what he meant, or it was because of a discarded timeline. Don't forget that there was a future now ruined in which Dragonopolis was never brought to the keystone dimension. Thus, a timeline in which the Dragon God was never brought over. When it was, its could-have-been future was destroyed.
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...thusly sending its "could-have-been" future Dragon God to the DBT...
...weather or not the TD absorbs all that comes into the DBT or not...
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You could say assimilated...Like eaten and digested for the use of energy. When you eat some ham, it becomes a part of you in a way. Sucks for the Dragon God.
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...one way or another, what I want to truly know is:
A: when truly was the Final Dragon actually consumed or conjoined with the TD, and
B: How the Final Dragon still exists even as a plasma semi-existant being after being absorbed/conjoined?
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Well if my wild speculation is correct, the Dragon God that we saw in the game and the Dragon God assimilated by the TD were totally separate things, in the same way that the Lavos in the DBT was totally different than the Lavos Crono & Co defeated (that TD-Lavos being the discarded future Lavos, not the defeated lavos).
But the key phrase there is "wild speculation"
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But the key phrase there is "wild speculation"
im preeetttty sure thats what this entire forum is about =D
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Though not this thread. I think there is a thread for this somewhere.
But anyway, I never thought of it that way, that the TD Lavos and CT Lavos were different ones, but now that I think about it, it makes sense, and so obvious...
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Though not this thread. I think there is a thread for this somewhere.
But anyway, I never thought of it that way, that the TD Lavos and CT Lavos were different ones, but now that I think about it, it makes sense, and so obvious...
I prefer to stay away from thinking of it like that...
I prefer to think of the TD lavos and the CT lavos being 1 and the same...
... otherwise it makes me wonder: Why is there only one? Has there not been an innummerable amount of futures and dimensions sent to the DBT, and thusly an innumerable amount of schalas and Lavos's sent there too?
...unless the DBT is not the collection of erased dimensions and futures, but merely:
Each dimension has its own DBT... and it collects all the things from lost futures cumulatively... and say if one object is sent to the DBT in one future it isnt sent again, just erased.... and then under that circumstance,
oh wait... completely contradicts the whole CC dimension travel.
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But even so, what make me think that they were the same was that someone in CC (forgot who) mentioning that the TD was the joining of Schala with the defeated Lavos.
... Maybe I shouldn't change my thinking that fast.
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They'd be the one and the same, only different.
When Crono and Co defeated Lavos, they changed the future. The Lavos in 2300 AD was discarded to the DBT along with everything else in that timeline. But that was still Lavos. The only difference would have been that its physical body would have remained in the real world and had a different future (possibly decaying or remaining perfectly static). The Lavos in 2300 is a defeated Lavos (he is there because he was defeated)... but he is not the dead Lavos (who exists in the normal world).
As for why there is only one, that depends on the nature of time itself. If every change to the past produces an entirely new timeline, then either the DBT must be filled with countless Lavoses, or there must be a countless number of DBTs each containing one. Either way, there are too many of something.
If, however, time is elastic rather than brittle, then there would not be this problem of excessive numbers. That is, things aren't usually discarded to the DBT since they are minor disturbances; only when major distortions occur does the DBT come into play.
For more information on just what I am talking about, see this thread (this page, top post): http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,6845.45.html
You'll need to shift your paradigm, so don't forget to pop the clutch.