Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Characters, Plot, and Themes => Topic started by: rushingwind on July 27, 2007, 10:27:29 pm
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I've read several pages here dealing with the differences between Schala and Kid, and how could they be possible if Kid is simply a clone of Schala. Thanks to a newer branch of genetics, called epigenetics, we might be able to finally explain these differences, as well as Schala's change in appearance between the end of CT and the end of CC.
Epigenetics is a relatively new science that deals with modifications of cellular DNA expression that don't actually change one's original DNA at all. These epigenetic changes are passed on in cell division, as well as the unaltered, original genetic code.
Your epigenetic code is a 'second DNA'. It sits right on top of your original DNA, and unlike the original, it can and will change during your lifetime depending on environmental situations. In recent studies, identical twins of all ages and walks of life have had their epigenome compared with one another. The older the twins are, the less epigenetic similarities they have, until they are extremely different in old age. These changes occur because of environmental factors--smog and pollution, smoking, food, chemicals we are exposed to, even how we behave and act towards one another, ect.
In fact, a calico cat named Rainbow was cloned. However, her clone looks nothing like her, despite being a precise genetic copy (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1360161 (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1360161)). Why? Epigenetics!
More about epigenetics here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/02.html)
Shifting back to Schala and Kid, epigenetics would be a huge reason why Kid and Schala look (and perhaps even act) so differently. When one considers the environmental conditions of Zeal, it was obviously a magical society. Because Zeal expected its royal family to be well-versed in magic, and Schala performed magic on a regular basis, her epigenome would have expressed exotic, magical traits (like blue hair, especially if magical ability was located on the same gene as blue hair color) and suppressed traits that might be considered non-magical. Also one should consider that she presumably lived a fairly comfortable life as a princess.
After being taken to the Darkness Beyond Time, she created a genetic clone of herself, Kid, and sent her into the world. While Kid is genetically the same, she would not possess Schala's epigenome (unless Schala impregnated herself with her own clone, then carried her for nine months and gave birth, and even then Kid would only inherit a few epigenetic traits, not the entire epigenome). And same as with the cloned cat mentioned above, Kid does not look much like Schala. Kid's epigemone developed under different conditions. Having not been raised in such a magically demanding environment, her epigenome would have no reason to express such strong magical traits at the exclusion of all non-magical traits (perhaps accounting for Kid's strength and agility, as well as her blonde hair and blue eyes).
At this point, magical ability appears to be genetic, and not epigenetic. If it is genetic (as I tend to believe) and therefore present in all modern humans to some degree, then even though Kid has the same magical abilities of Schala, her environmental conditions have caused her epigenome to suppress most of these powers (since she is not even the strongest magic user in CC). If magical ability is epigenetic (which seems unlikely, since magical ability is passed on to the next generation, at least in the case of the Zeal royal family), Kid wouldn't have Schala's powers at all, since her epigenome developed in complete independence from Schala's.
Another point worth discussing is Schala's change in appearance from CT to the end of CC. We know that Lavos can absorb and change DNA. Perhaps he did not change Schala's genome when he combined with her (a move that could potentially kill her), but rather edited her epigenome to make her more compatible to the combination process. The change in her hair from blue to blonde, and her eyes from green to blue, is completely possible with the changing of the epigenome (since both hair color and eye color are genetic traits).
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I've no knowledge to make a reply with, but I will say that I'll add this to the Kid / Schala common questions article in the theory section and announce it.
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I was thinking about the difference in their personality, and I believe it to be merely a sign of upbringing. While Schala was quiet and reserved, Kid was loud and boisterous, possibly to cover up the pain that she has had to deal with her whole life. As is clearly illustrated, she has not had the easiest life. I think that Kid's recklessness is supported by the explination that when she comes into peril that she is transported back to a safer place in time. I don't remember who offered that explination, whether it was one of the Trigger kids on Opassa in the last segment or something else, but I do believe it's in there.
Personally I don't know how much I support personality being dictated by genetics, and perhaps that explains my slant on this, but I do think that Kid's attitude and actions are quiet in keeping with her past, and in the same way I think that Schala's are in keeping with a childhood spent being somewhat frightened of her mother, and being raised in a very intellectually oriented society.
As for appearance, I don't know how different Schala at the end of Chrono Cross looks from Kid. Schala does look younger, but overall I think that they are relatively similar. There is of course a massive difference between Akira Toriyama's artwork and Noboteru Yuki's, however I see it merely as artistic license I suppose.
As for Kid's accent? Search me, no idea.
Again, I'm not sure if this is the right place that I should debate this, and if not, please tell me, I'm just a bit confused about what goes where on these boards, there's a lot of sections, eh?
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well also because kid is a clone, her personality from schala may be acting on a certain quality that schala never really showed or may have not even known about in her mind.
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Personally I don't know how much I support personality being dictated by genetics, and perhaps that explains my slant on this, but I do think that Kid's attitude and actions are quiet in keeping with her past, and in the same way I think that Schala's are in keeping with a childhood spent being somewhat frightened of her mother, and being raised in a very intellectually oriented society.
Oh yes, I do agree with you. I think that Kid's personality is dictated by the terrible, harsh time she's had in the past, just as Schala's is dictated by her royal upbringing in Zeal. I was merely suggesting it because there are some who believe that personality can be dictated by genetics--though I personally don't believe this to be the case.
As for appearance, I don't know how different Schala at the end of Chrono Cross looks from Kid. Schala does look younger, but overall I think that they are relatively similar. There is of course a massive difference between Akira Toriyama's artwork and Noboteru Yuki's, however I see it merely as artistic license I suppose.
Artistic license is probably to blame for Schala's difference in appearance between Trigger and Cross. But I can make all kinds of excuses because I like the pretty blue hair I'm a big fan of Zeal. :D
well also because kid is a clone, her personality from schala may be acting on a certain quality that schala never really showed or may have not even known about in her mind.
Yes, exactly, even though I don't personally support the 'personality-comes-from-genetics' viewpoint. If you are operating under the assumption that one's genetic code can influence personality, then epigenetic tags that activate/suppress individual genes would have a huge impact on personality. Then the mental and magical differences between Kid and Schala could be completely attributed to the differences in their respective epigenomes.
In other words, Schala always had the genes that would have caused her personality to be like Kid's, they were just never activated for one reason or another because of her environment in Zeal. The same is true of Kid--because she grew up in a very different environment, different genes were activated by her (also different) epigenetic tags, and she turned out to be quite different than Schala.
But that's if you believe personality is dictated by genetics.
I've no knowledge to make a reply with, but I will say that I'll add this to the Kid / Schala common questions article in the theory section and announce it.
Awesome! :D Thanks!
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Dont forget ladies and gents that we are dealing with a magical clone and not a scientific one.. that changes the rules a bit
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Dont forget ladies and gents that we are dealing with a magical clone and not a scientific one.. that changes the rules a bit
No it doesn't. There is no evidence that "magical" cloning would somehow be different than "scientific" cloning. And unless some comes up pointing to that, we should not assume that this holds true. That's a Zaperking fallacy.
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ok if you deal with the fact that magic can bypass bend and in some instances break all normal physical laws... first off the clone was immediate. no cloning time in other words poof baby. Id say thats a significant change.
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ok if you deal with the fact that magic can bypass bend and in some instances break all normal physical laws... first off the clone was immediate. no cloning time in other words poof baby. Id say thats a significant change.
It's a change in means, not ends. If I drive a car somewhere I get there faster than if I take the bus, but either way, I still get there.
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ok if you deal with the fact that magic can bypass bend and in some instances break all normal physical laws... first off the clone was immediate. no cloning time in other words poof baby. Id say thats a significant change.
Yes, but also remember that Lavos has an intimate knowledge of the workings of DNA (and it's manipulation). If Schala didn't already know how to create a clone, after being fused with Lavos she may have just 'borrowed' the knowledge (and knowledge doesn't always mean "using magic"--we honestly don't know how she created Kid, but just that she did). And also, a clone is a clone, no matter how you slice it. Kid possesses the same basic genetic code that Schala does. If her DNA were any different (even a little bit), she wouldn't be a clone. Simple as that.
However, Kid's epigenome might possibly be changed by a magical creation. The human epigenetic code changes naturally in our lifetimes, so it isn't inconceivable to think that a highly specific magic spell could edit/change/do whatever to it. But even if this were the case, it would make Kid no less a clone of Schala than before--their base genetic code is still the same, and that's what counts when one is defining her as a clone.
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that last bit is primarily what I meant
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Dont forget ladies and gents that we are dealing with a magical clone and not a scientific one.. that changes the rules a bit
No it doesn't. There is no evidence that "magical" cloning would somehow be different than "scientific" cloning. And unless some comes up pointing to that, we should not assume that this holds true. That's a Zaperking fallacy.
If you're going to be picky about how you base your arguments, then you should stick to that fallacy consistently.
Anything but that is what brings junk into the Compendium.
Anyway, as Radical_Dreamer said, the magical cloning and scientific cloning is a change in ends.
However, I'd have to point out that it's stated that Kid is "Schala's daughter/clone". Hence this can imply two things.
Firstly, that Schala actually created Kid as a clone by impregnating herself and creating her via magic.
or
Two, that Kid isn't a fully copy of Schala.
Because it says that Kid is a daughter/clone, we can't assume that Kid is identical to Schala. After all, just because a girl has a mother doesn't mean their genes are exactally the same, half of the 4x chromosomes come from the father. Hence, if Kid is Schala's daughter/clone, then she should have probably something like 95% of Schala's DNA, but then she probably got some from Lavos too, after all Schala and Lavos were merging.
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Firstly, that Schala actually created Kid as a clone by impregnating herself and creating her via magic.
or
Two, that Kid isn't a fully copy of Schala.
Or three, Schala magically created Kid in some other fashion. As you said, not being a full clone would mean Kid gets some of Lavos's DNA.
As nice as that sounds for fan fiction, it's a wonder she doesn't have spikes growing out of her face in that case.
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However, I'd have to point out that it's stated that Kid is "Schala's daughter/clone". Hence this can imply two things.
Firstly, that Schala actually created Kid as a clone by impregnating herself and creating her via magic.
or
Two, that Kid isn't a fully copy of Schala.
Because it says that Kid is a daughter/clone, we can't assume that Kid is identical to Schala. After all, just because a girl has a mother doesn't mean their genes are exactally the same, half of the 4x chromosomes come from the father. Hence, if Kid is Schala's daughter/clone, then she should have probably something like 95% of Schala's DNA, but then she probably got some from Lavos too, after all Schala and Lavos were merging.
Hmm... You bring up a very good point here.
If you hold that Kid and Schala remain separate people at the end of Chrono Cross (as I do), this could be a perfect explanation. If the term "daughter-clone" literally means a clone that Schala carried and gave birth to, then their DNA wouldn't be completely identical (and it would be different, since conception would have to take place by an alternative means). Since the Chrono Cross unites and heals things that have been divided, even if Kid is Schala's daughter, she's still not her, and they wouldn't be united.
However, but my only problem with Kid being Schala's actual daughter via pregnancy is that its highly unlikely that Schala would have been able to carry her and give birth under those conditions. Merging with Lavos would probably be a terrible strain on her system, and she'd probably miscarry. Not to mention that Lavos would probably have noticed at some point.
Or three, Schala magically created Kid in some other fashion. As you said, not being a full clone would mean Kid gets some of Lavos's DNA.
As nice as that sounds for fan fiction, it's a wonder she doesn't have spikes growing out of her face in that case.
Very possible as well. And I don't believe that Lavos's DNA was involved in making Kid, because yeah, she'd have spikes or something.
This is a bit of a stretch, but could it be possible that Schala pulled the extra DNA she might need from an outside source to conceive Kid? Since the DBT is full of deleted timelines, it might have been possible to reach into one and pull out what she needed. After all, isn't that what Lavos does? Absorb DNA? Whether she actually impregnated herself with Kid or not, this could be a possibility.
However, that seems to be negated by the game's assertion that Kid is a clone--and a clone is a genetic replica. You can't have a half-clone--either the DNA is identical or it's not. If Schala pulled extra DNA from elsewhere, then Kid would be a daughter, not a daughter-clone...
Wow, you can really go in circles thinking about this... :shock:
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Even if Schala took DNA from Lavos, it doesn't mean Kid would look like Lavos. The DNA can be made recessive.
Also, since Schala supposedly "sent out her good side" in Kid, then we could allude that to infusing Kid with her essence, her soul, who knows.
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Even if Schala took DNA from Lavos, it doesn't mean Kid would look like Lavos. The DNA can be made recessive.
Yes, you're right. I didn't think of that. Epigenetics could play in perfectly with that.
Also, since Schala supposedly "sent out her good side" in Kid, then we could allude that to infusing Kid with her essence, her soul, who knows.
Does it say that in the game (about Kid being Schala's 'good side')? I thought it said that Kid was Schala's daughter-clone... It has been about a year and a half since I played Chrono Cross.
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It said clearly that Kid was Schala's "Daughter-clone".
But it also said that in her last ditch effort to save herself, or at least her sanity (which would be her good side before Lavos dominates her), she sent out Kid. So if that were true, then to have Kid would be meaning to saver her O_o
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It said clearly that Kid was Schala's "Daughter-clone".
But it also said that in her last ditch effort to save herself, or at least her sanity (which would be her good side before Lavos dominates her), she sent out Kid. So if that were true, then to have Kid would be meaning to saver her O_o
Well, not necessarily. In real life, good people can be consumed by hatred, rage, insanity, ect., without having to split the good part of their soul from their evil side. Schala didn't have to split in two for her to become filled with Lavos' hatred and rage. She just simply became consumed and overpowered with it, and became evil (and a part of Lavos). Though whether she actually did split herself or not is anyone's guess, because the Chrono world is obviously not like real life. :)
It's very possible that this is what happened in Cross--that Schala tried to go to Serge, and ended up rending herself in two, the sane half becoming Kid. I personally hold that Schala cloned Kid and sent her to Lucca with her pendant. Having briefly met Lucca in Zeal (presumably), Schala would have known that Lucca was an intelligent woman who might know what to do to save her, and perhaps sending a clone of herself was the only message she could compose in her compromised state. I personally believe that Schala and Kid are still two separate people.
Now this is just my humble opinion. I have absolutely no problem with anyone believing that Kid and Schala are the same person, or combine at the end of Cross (in fact, isn't that the case in Radical Dreamers? I'm not sure, but I believe that I heard that in RD Kid IS Schala). The ending of Cross is ambiguous enough that there's room for either interpretation.
Wow, sorry for getting off topic. *shrug* I wish we could find someone that reads/writes good Japanese, and we could just ask Kato what his intentions were... *sigh*
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Well, I bet I must be wrong, but this daughter/clone could not mean partenogenesis? I mean, use her DNA as source for Kid's, like a clone, but also merging two half-cells (don't know how to say in english) to make Kid's actual DNA.
A person's DNA has two lines in each cromossome, each line with a different group of genes, and the ones that are shown in the end are the dominant ones, while the recessive ones don't and in case of co-dominants they end having a third effect than if it was a pair of the same one... So Kid could have Schala's DNA as a base, without some of the dominant genes, making the recessive ones of such dominants be the ones that actually are in Kid.
Like, someone with green eyes could have two green eyes genes or a green and a blue eyes gene, in the second case making it half possible that the child could have blue eyes if the other partner had blue eyes (blue eyes only show up in a blue/blue combination, since they are the more recessive ones of eye color) or 1/4 if the other partner had green eyes also with green and blue genes. It's a biology thing, and I'm not good at explaining (specially outside my own language), but it's a pretty basic thing of genetics...
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Given the in-game evidence we have, I do not believe this is the case. (By the way, in English, it's parthenogenesis)
Parthenogenesis (more commonly known among the masses as 'virgin birth') is asexual reproduction in which a female reproduces without the fertilization by a male. You typically find it in flower species, insects, and a very few species of reptiles. In a human, two of the same chromosomes will produce a female child (XX), thus any human child created through parthenogenesis will be female. If Kid were produced this way, the genetic material in the egg would be considerably varied, Kid may not look/act/share anything like Schala at all.
There is considerable debate on whether parthenogenesis is possible in humans. The presence of dermoid cysts in both male and female bodies seem to suggest that it might be, on some level at least. (Dermoid cysts are malformed embryonic growths or tumors occasionally found in various parts of the body that contain teeth, hair, and various other malformed body parts.) Since these cysts develop and grow without being fertilized, some scientists believe they speak to either a higher or lower level form of reproduction that could exist within a human being. But at least for now, it isn't possible for a human being to reproduce all on its own--unless they are truly hermaphroditic, in which assistance from either a lab or from magic you would be able to fertilize your own embryo. That wouldn't be parthenogenesis, just plain fertilization. And as far as I know, there is no in-game evidence that points towards Schala being able to do that. :)
Also, a child produced via parthenogenesis is quite different than a child produced through genetic cloning. Parthenogenesis is clearly a form of reproduction, and the new organism is not a copy of the original. If this were the case, Kid would absolutely be Schala's daughter--no doubt about it. You could not call her a daughter-clone, because cloning would have nothing to do with it.
There's simply no way around this. When you throw in the word 'clone', you take the possibility of parthenogenesis out of the equation.
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Two thing just popped in to my head,
1. Is it so hard to believe that they were misusing the word Daughter-clone?
2. Lavos could vary well be parthenogenesis, as there are offspring in the year 2300A.D., then while Schala was joined with Lavos she could have used Lavos' biology to provide means to produce Kid, there has been a dog that give birth to kittens, and hornets reproduce in tree's for nutrition.
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Two thing just popped in to my head,
1. Is it so hard to believe that they were misusing the word Daughter-clone?
2. Lavos could vary well be parthenogenesis, as there are offspring in the year 2300A.D., then while Schala was joined with Lavos she could have used Lavos' biology to provide means to produce Kid, there has been a dog that give birth to kittens, and hornets reproduce in tree's for nutrition.
1 - This is actually a very good point, and the answer depends on how the Japanese script reads. If it says 'daughter' without the 'clone', then yes, the English translation of 'daughter-clone' is almost certainly incorrect and something else is at play. If it says 'daughter-clone', then no, unless somebody screwed up in the writing department and they simply used the wrong word (which, I have a hard time believing, because most people today know what a clone is). If someone is a clone, they are a genetic copy of the original subject. Parthenogenesis creates a new, recombined, individual genome--a daughter, not a daughter-clone.
2 - Well, yes and no. The possibility that Lavos uses parthenogenesis to reproduce is high, yes. It seems that he uses some form of asexual reproduction at the very least. However, since it is through an ovum (egg) that parthenogenesis would take place, and the human ovum cannot divide under any significant length through a similar process, then the egg that Schala would have to use would be Lavos' ovum, in which case Schala's DNA would never even enter the equation. The very definition of parthenogenesis is that it uses one egg, and recombines the DNA accordingly, and uses no outside DNA. If somehow she had managed to insert her own genetic material inside of Lavos' ovum, the genome would have to be modified in order to allow for the fertilization to happen in the first place. Kid would be the genetic daughter of both Lavos and Schala (and as Zeality pointed out earlier in the thread, she would take on some of his characteristics, like spikes and such). She wouldn't have 'just a little' of his DNA, she'd have half his DNA, cause he'd be her father.
Short of some incredible, god-like spell, Schala could not reproduce asexually using her own eggs. In order to do so, she'd have to carry the child herself, and then continuously hold this spell for several weeks into the growth of the fetus to guide its development--maybe even longer. And again, if she uses Lavos' eggs, it becomes something else entirely, because then Kid would have two genetic parents--Schala and Lavos. That would be fertilization, not parthenogenesis. I seriously doubt she had that kind of energy and time to drive into a spell.
Another option is that she inserted her own genetic material inside of an ovum, fertilizing the cell and thus cloning herself. The cells would divide normally, and as I've said earlier in the thread, a tiny amount of genetic variation would occur as the fetus grows. The epigenome would develop to be completely unique. This is not the same as asexual reproduction.
By the way, the 'dog giving birth to a kitten' story is actually not true. The dog in question gave birth to a dog with a gene mutation. It looks like a cat, but is a dog.
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_2371905.html
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Yep, that's what I was meaning. Parthenogenesis.
What I meant was that, just as Kebrel said, the word daughter-clone was misused, but not in a bad-translation thing, but to take another sense (hence, the one of Kid was a daughter that took schala's DNA of both sides).
You have a point in her not usually beign able to do this even in this sense, but keep in mind that the male contribution to reproduction in humans - the spermatozoid - is almost completelly thrown away but for the DNA. So she would not need to a god-like spell to generate a child, only take the DNA of one of her ovums and join with the one of the other inside either of them, and them let it keep going like a usually fertilized one (I'm serious, there were once studies to make this in labs in real life).
...It was a dog with gene mutation? Really? I always thought it was actually a kitty that was "kittynapped" to be raised by the dog so the owner could pretend it was actually son of the dog...
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It could be interesting to see what the word used for "daughter-clone" was in the Japanese version of the game, especially so we can compare it with the term "bunshin" (offshoots) used in CT's Japanese version:
And then, just as if laying eggs, it gives
birth to its own offshoots, one after another,
from the place I named Death Mountain.
offshoots = 'bunshin', one of those words that doesn't translate well. Sort of, but not exactly, 'clone'.
In CT's English version, the term "offshots" is not used because Belthasar uses a verb, "Lavos continues to replicate", instead. Note that this bunshin stuff isn't the same term as Lavos Spawn, which is simply Mini Lavos in the Japanese version.
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Excellent points, and I hate to detract the topic at all, but one little thing in the first post kinda irked me.
Blue hair isn't magical. There were tons of brown-haired people in Zeal (Dalton to name one), Lucca's mom has blue hair, as do many PCs in CC. It's Japanese, so they like to use funky hair colors to differentiate characters.
Back to the topic at hand! I myself like to think of it in Eva SPOILER SPOILER terms. Rei is a sorta-clone of Yui but has different hair and eyes for no particular reason(actually put in by the designers to make her look different from the rest of the cast) other than her Angel DNA. But then I'd start comparing Lavoids to Angels... and well, I think it's best to keep headaches in one series at a time.
Cool, interesting stuff here.
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Excellent points, and I hate to detract the topic at all, but one little thing in the first post kinda irked me.
Blue hair isn't magical. There were tons of brown-haired people in Zeal (Dalton to name one), Lucca's mom has blue hair, as do many PCs in CC. It's Japanese, so they like to use funky hair colors to differentiate characters.
I wasn't necessarily claiming that it was (though, there is no in-game evidence to point either way). If you reread that post, you'll see that I was discussing the the formation and evolution of Schala's epigenome in Zeal. I suggested that her upbringing in Zeal developed her epigenome to express exotic and magical traits, and that it was possible that the gene for blue hair was located on the same gene for magical abilities. Overall, I was merely trying to illustrate that Schala and Kid would both possess very different epigenomes, even if their basic genomes are identical.
Back to the topic at hand! I myself like to think of it in Eva SPOILER SPOILER terms. Rei is a sorta-clone of Yui but has different hair and eyes for no particular reason(actually put in by the designers to make her look different from the rest of the cast) other than her Angel DNA. But then I'd start comparing Lavoids to Angels... and well, I think it's best to keep headaches in one series at a time.
I don't really know anything about this to reply with. :( Sorry.
It could be interesting to see what the word used for "daughter-clone" was in the Japanese version of the game, especially so we can compare it with the term "bunshin" (offshoots) used in CT's Japanese version:
And then, just as if laying eggs, it gives
birth to its own offshoots, one after another,
from the place I named Death Mountain.
offshoots = 'bunshin', one of those words that doesn't translate well. Sort of, but not exactly, 'clone'.
In CT's English version, the term "offshots" is not used because Belthasar uses a verb, "Lavos continues to replicate", instead. Note that this bunshin stuff isn't the same term as Lavos Spawn, which is simply Mini Lavos in the Japanese version.
Yes, I agree, we need to know what the Japanese term is to really get anywhere.
Yep, that's what I was meaning. Parthenogenesis.
What I meant was that, just as Kebrel said, the word daughter-clone was misused, but not in a bad-translation thing, but to take another sense (hence, the one of Kid was a daughter that took schala's DNA of both sides).
Taking Schala's DNA from both sides and then being born as usual would make Kid a daughter--not a daughter-clone. She would possess an entirely unique DNA than Schala. If she's not an exact genetic replica Kid is not a clone. If Schala took two of her ova and combined them, this is asexual reproduction and creates a new, unique genome.
I mean, there are several species of insects that do this, but we don't say that the insects clone themselves, do we? No, they create new, varied individuals that adapt to their environments. Therefore, if Kid is produced in this way, she is a daughter, and is in no way a clone.
You have a point in her not usually beign able to do this even in this sense, but keep in mind that the male contribution to reproduction in humans - the spermatozoid - is almost completelly thrown away but for the DNA. So she would not need to a god-like spell to generate a child, only take the DNA of one of her ovums and join with the one of the other inside either of them, and them let it keep going like a usually fertilized one (I'm serious, there were once studies to make this in labs in real life).
True, but this would still make Kid a daughter, not a daughter-clone. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, here, but a clone is a genetic replica. It doesn't matter that Kid was produced by Schala's DNA alone. If she was produced in this manner, the genome has been recombined and is not the same anymore...and unless it is exactly the same, Kid's not a clone. And the game clearly states that she is a daughter-clone. You can't have half a clone, or a sorta clone. Someone is either a clone or they're not.
But this relies on the assumption that the Japanese version also says 'daughter-clone'. It is very, very possible that the term was either misused or mistranslated in English.
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Could be that she's just a clone but was meant spiritually as her daughter. In essence, Schala is considering her a daughter even though she's a clone.
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Could be that she's just a clone but was meant spiritually as her daughter. In essence, Schala is considering her a daughter even though she's a clone.
It could be. After all Square is used to designing weird relations between clones/parents/children (see all the clones of Sephiroth or Genesis in Final Fantasy VII, and all the people claiming Jenova to be their mother...).
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Rushingwind, you aren't sounding like a broken record, you just don't get what I meant. I meant the term used was this one to give the meaning of parthenogenesis, since it would mean using only Schala's DNA to create her daughter, meaning the "clone" part would be just symbolic. In other words, the clone there wasnt meaning to be actual clone, just to mean she has Schala's DNA in both sides unlike an usual daughter who would require a father's one, in other words, the "clone" was used there symbolically (the exact opposite of Kyronea's idea, if you still don't get what I mean).
By the way, the theory someone gave about she beign clone because she used Schala's DNA at the time but a daughter because not actually her usual DNA but had a little of Lavos, that was quickly revoked (is this the word) by Kid not having spikes... If you notice on the opening movie (before the "press start" screen), when she is facing the sea, we can notice two lighter marks near the elbow of each arm, just like the ones on the face. The ones of the face could be makeup for not beign as easilly recognizable when wearing other clothes and without it, but since I doubt she would need makeup there for wathever reason and they are too equal and symetric to be usual scars, they could be scars of where the spikes were removed.
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I had the same thoughts as Loki Fenrisulf. And as much as I hate this comparison it like naruto's lines on his face and the whiskers of the Nine tailed fox.
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Loki, at the end of the game, when Kid and Schala unite, Schala is on the beach and there are no spikes O_o
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Could that not be view as purification?
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....or shaving??
(I definitely prefer purification)
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*grabs head* Oh wow, I'm having trouble keeping up with everybody...
I suppose that, depending upon how you view the end of the game, either option is possible. If you hold that Kid and Schala unite at the end of the game, then there's only two real possibilities. One, Kid and Schala are the same person divided in two at some point prior to the game. And two, Kid is an exact genetic replica of Schala--not a daughter by any means of asexual reproduction--but a clone.
If Kid is produced by any form of asexual reproduction, then her merging with Schala makes no sense whatsoever. She'd be a complete individual, with an incredibly different genome. I mean, you can take Nikki and Fargo to fight at the Darkness Beyond Time, but they don't magically bind into one being just because they're father and son.
Now, if you hold that Kid and Schala don't merge, then just about any explanation works. Kid could be strictly a daughter, a clone, or hybrid-something-or-another. Doesn't really matter.
Pick your poison, I guess... *shrug*
Rushingwind, you aren't sounding like a broken record, you just don't get what I meant. I meant the term used was this one to give the meaning of parthenogenesis, since it would mean using only Schala's DNA to create her daughter, meaning the "clone" part would be just symbolic. In other words, the clone there wasnt meaning to be actual clone, just to mean she has Schala's DNA in both sides unlike an usual daughter who would require a father's one, in other words, the "clone" was used there symbolically (the exact opposite of Kyronea's idea, if you still don't get what I mean).
My only problem with this is that it seems like quite a stretch. I've heard the term 'daughter' used spiritually/symbolically before, but never the word 'clone'.
I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that I've never heard it before.
By the way, the theory someone gave about she beign clone because she used Schala's DNA at the time but a daughter because not actually her usual DNA but had a little of Lavos, that was quickly revoked (is this the word) by Kid not having spikes... If you notice on the opening movie (before the "press start" screen), when she is facing the sea, we can notice two lighter marks near the elbow of each arm, just like the ones on the face. The ones of the face could be makeup for not beign as easilly recognizable when wearing other clothes and without it, but since I doubt she would need makeup there for wathever reason and they are too equal and symetric to be usual scars, they could be scars of where the spikes were removed.
O_o
No. Just...no.
Let's approach this another way, then. If Kid had Lavos' DNA, she would have presumably inherited some of his abilities as well. If you had Schala as a mother and Lavos as a father, you would be quite formidable in magical combat, and Kid is quite clearly not.
Epigenetic differences withstanding, it's a wonder Kid wouldn't have any of his (or Schala's) magical abilities.
Could that not be view as purification?
Why would it be purification? Lavos isn't evil just because he's a lavoid, and from the Chrono Cross's standpoint Kid wouldn't be mangled just because she was part lavoid either. The Chrono Cross unites things and heals hate--it doesn't eradicate a particular species.
Could be that she's just a clone but was meant spiritually as her daughter. In essence, Schala is considering her a daughter even though she's a clone.
This would be the simplest explanation, yes.
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*grabs head* Oh wow, I'm having trouble keeping up with everybody...
I suppose that, depending upon how you view the end of the game, either option is possible. If you hold that Kid and Schala unite at the end of the game, then there's only two real possibilities. One, Kid and Schala are the same person divided in two at some point prior to the game. And two, Kid is an exact genetic replica of Schala--not a daughter by any means of asexual reproduction--but a clone.
If Kid is produced by any form of asexual reproduction, then her merging with Schala makes no sense whatsoever. She'd be a complete individual, with an incredibly different genome. I mean, you can take Nikki and Fargo to fight at the Darkness Beyond Time, but they don't magically bind into one being just because they're father and son.
Now, if you hold that Kid and Schala don't merge, then just about any explanation works. Kid could be strictly a daughter, a clone, or hybrid-something-or-another. Doesn't really matter.
Pick your poison, I guess... *shrug*
Rushingwind, you aren't sounding like a broken record, you just don't get what I meant. I meant the term used was this one to give the meaning of parthenogenesis, since it would mean using only Schala's DNA to create her daughter, meaning the "clone" part would be just symbolic. In other words, the clone there wasnt meaning to be actual clone, just to mean she has Schala's DNA in both sides unlike an usual daughter who would require a father's one, in other words, the "clone" was used there symbolically (the exact opposite of Kyronea's idea, if you still don't get what I mean).
My only problem with this is that it seems like quite a stretch. I've heard the term 'daughter' used spiritually/symbolically before, but never the word 'clone'.
I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that I've never heard it before.
By the way, the theory someone gave about she beign clone because she used Schala's DNA at the time but a daughter because not actually her usual DNA but had a little of Lavos, that was quickly revoked (is this the word) by Kid not having spikes... If you notice on the opening movie (before the "press start" screen), when she is facing the sea, we can notice two lighter marks near the elbow of each arm, just like the ones on the face. The ones of the face could be makeup for not beign as easilly recognizable when wearing other clothes and without it, but since I doubt she would need makeup there for wathever reason and they are too equal and symetric to be usual scars, they could be scars of where the spikes were removed.
O_o
No. Just...no.
Let's approach this another way, then. If Kid had Lavos' DNA, she would have presumably inherited some of his abilities as well. If you had Schala as a mother and Lavos as a father, you would be quite formidable in magical combat, and Kid is quite clearly not.
Epigenetic differences withstanding, it's a wonder Kid wouldn't have any of his (or Schala's) magical abilities.
Actually even she beign a clone she merging with Schala makes no sense whatsoever. Or else twins would merge too (homozigotical twins are natural clones).
But I don't get your point about she inheriting Schala's and Lavos' magical abilities... After all, just because someone's parents are good at mechanics or calculations doesn't mean the child will be either, even if both are. That without counting the fact that magical prowess may be inherited, but the ability to use is, like I said without even pointing yet, an ability. That means that she would need to train to get good, even if she has an innate aptitude for it. As Kid said herself when she first met Serge, she just came from the mainland, where almost no-one uses elements, so I see no reason she would be better at it than people who use all the time in El Nido, while Schala used it all the time, both for beign normal in her society and because it was her job, and Lavos... He was a magical killing machine...
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Actually, monozygotic twins are natural clones. A homozygote is the result of two genetically identical gametes merging.
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ops... sorry, translation problems.
But you get the idea!
The point is: they beign clones doesn't mean they would merge any more than they not beign actual clones, or else monozygotic twins would too. IF they merged, they did so for another reason, like... they shared the same soul (like Sora and Roxas and Kairi and Naminé in Kindon Hearts 2).
In other words, you can't say some teory is less likely because that would not allow the merging, because even the clone theory doesn't by itself.
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It could be interesting to see what the word used for "daughter-clone" was in the Japanese version of the game, especially so we can compare it with the term "bunshin" (offshoots) used in CT's Japanese version:
http://radical.or.tv/koryaku/lines/opasa.html
http://www006.upp.so-net.ne.jp/meeres/t_ccw26.htm
自らを消し去ろうとしていた
サラさんは、幼いあなたの
泣き声にひかれて、この時代に
自分の分身を生んだのね。
"分身" is another way to write "bunshin".
分身 【ぶんしん】 (n,vs) parturition; delivery; one's child; branch; offshoot; one's other self; (P); EP