Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: Sora on June 25, 2007, 01:57:23 pm
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i believe that it was created by lavos. after all, it is the only red gate (and red means bad) and also if lucca saves her mom she becomes less mature. i think lavos was trying to hit the party with an indirect attack. in doing this it shows that lavos is centinate and all knowing and seeing, kinda like Morganna Mode Gone in .hack.
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Less mature? And it follows a discussion concerning the Entity. Lavos never exhibits this behavior or power in the entire series.
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yea, i read that the 3rd entry of Lucca's dairy was written in first person to symbolize maturity, and if you save her mom it goes back to 3rd person, and why would the entity want to make Lucca dumber?
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No, according to Kwhazit's translation notes, it's neither first-person nor third-person when you save Lara's legs.
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DAMN YOU TED! FOILED AGAIN!!
so that means that lucca doesnt actually get dumber when you save her mom?
also, why was that gate red? it was the only red gate in the game, right?
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It was probably red because it was a one time only Gate, and I'm sure you could make some spiel about how, because of that, the Gate is of a lower wavelength, so it has a lower color in the spectrum or something.
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couple of things.. it is possible that lavos does not understand all the precepts of time travel and hence does not understand tiem travelers immunity meaning. he could have set it there so that history would have been changed.. she wouldnt have gotten so interested in machines and never built the telepod... thus ensuring the Lavos timeline to remain as it was. but he alos did not know that in allowing lucca to save her mother that the child would still become interested in machines to make sure it couldnt happen again
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As in, Lavos never brushed up on his reading here at the Compendium, and forgot to read about TTI?
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right. And perhaps he did understand time travelers immunity but designed the gate so tht it did not invoke it.. or so that anything she changed in the past would rewrite history including the actions of chrono and crew. Or perhaps Teh original intention of the gate was to have her cause a turn of events that splintered reality in two creating a seperate timeline in which chrono and crew did not ever time travel. and because of his temporal nature......... see where this goes?
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And perhaps he did understand time travelers immunity but designed the gate so tht it did not invoke it
Could lavos rewrite Chronotriggers law of physics.
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And perhaps he did understand time travelers immunity but designed the gate so tht it did not invoke it
Could lavos rewrite Chronotriggers law of physics.
Lavos is a resident of the universe, and like everything else in the universe, is bound by it's laws.
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This board has already established that at least one gate was an exception to the conservation of time theorum... and that was a lavos created gate.( speaking of the large gate at magus castle which not only ported the party but also ported magus's castle to who knows where) And So if Lavos has the ability to create gates it is logical to assume that he has the capability of writing the laws of that gate
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Not really. I'll provide an analogy. A computer programmer can make a piece of software, and is very free in what that software can do. However, there are constraints of the operating system and the hardware which cannot be overcome by any piece of software, so in this way the programmer is limited. The universe has laws, and everything in it is subject to those laws.
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Well, the planet certainly isn't bound to any laws. If it traverses time, then it'd be dead at any given point until the EoT, unless Lavos never really killed it off.
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The planet itself does not traverse time in any but the mundane single speed forward fashion we all do.
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Well, the planet certainly isn't bound to any laws. If it traverses time, then it'd be dead at any given point until the EoT, unless Lavos never really killed it off.
Oh you don't want to start up that whole argument again, do you?
The Planet does not travel through time itself. It is a linear entity bound by linear time as much as anyone else. It can utilize temporal Gates to allow others to travel through time--and perhaps travel through time temporarily by extending its consciousness through the Gates, but it does not exist as a non-linear entity.
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but it can obviously forsee exactly what is going to happen to it and to its alternate versions.
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but it can obviously forsee exactly what is going to happen to it and to its alternate versions.
No, it cannot, and I do not see where you get this idea from.
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if it couldnt see what was going to happen it would have no idea to pull dinopolis back, now would it? This in and of itself combined with the theory that it is aware of other dimensional versions of itself leads to the theory that while the planet is linear it sees forward and backward.. and can errect gates to change history to save itself.. even though in 2300 ad in the japanese version of the game mother brain states that the planet given enough time would recover.
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Or the planet could be like our guru of reason over there and just predicted certain events, If a crackpot old fool could why not the planet?
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if it couldnt see what was going to happen it would have no idea to pull dinopolis back, now would it? This in and of itself combined with the theory that it is aware of other dimensional versions of itself leads to the theory that while the planet is linear it sees forward and backward.. and can errect gates to change history to save itself.. even though in 2300 ad in the japanese version of the game mother brain states that the planet given enough time would recover.
Well, let's see here, the entity making the statement that given enough time the planet would recover is not the planet itself, but mother brain. I guess that alone makes enough sense. I think the fact that the planet was able to know about other versions of itself is farfetched, but isn't impossible. There's just no evidence to back it up.
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no evidence??? it yanked dinopolis from an alternate future... That in and of itself is proof
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I think I have a solution to the problem. Its a simple matter of balance. Chronopolis was based on an alternate future (happy Chronoland Keystone timeline), as was Dinopolis (Happy Chronoland Reptite timeline). Now, both Poli (plural of polis) were massive amounts of 'data' (people and objects), which would cause a huge disruption in time if moved (time crash, dead sea, etc.). The laws of time would require a seperate time crash along with the main one to balance the continuum. Similar to this:
Imagine time a scale. The actual scale itself is the continuum, and the cups for weighing are the Poli. If you add a large amount of weight to one side, the other would tip. If the imbalance is large enough, it could even break the scale. Now, assume you add, oh, maybe 5 pounds (Chronopolis) to one side. Time wants itself to remain as equal as possible, so you must add 5 more pounds (Dinopolis) to the other. Now the scales have been equalized.
So, Dinopolis HAD to be pulled back to balance the shift caused by Chronopolis.
BUT WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE RED GATE?!?!?!?!?
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I think I have a solution to the problem. Its a simple matter of balance. Chronopolis was based on an alternate future (happy Chronoland Keystone timeline), as was Dinopolis (Happy Chronoland Reptite timeline). Now, both Poli (plural of polis) were massive amounts of 'data' (people and objects), which would cause a huge disruption in time if moved (time crash, dead sea, etc.). The laws of time would require a seperate time crash along with the main one to balance the continuum. Similar to this:
Imagine time a scale. The actual scale itself is the continuum, and the cups for weighing are the Poli. If you add a large amount of weight to one side, the other would tip. If the imbalance is large enough, it could even break the scale. Now, assume you add, oh, maybe 5 pounds (Chronopolis) to one side. Time wants itself to remain as equal as possible, so you must add 5 more pounds (Dinopolis) to the other. Now the scales have been equalized.
So, Dinopolis HAD to be pulled back to balance the shift caused by Chronopolis.
BUT WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE RED GATE?!?!?!?!?
This reminds me of dreamfall: the longest journey, in which two separate worlds exist one pure law in which science, and technology ruled. In the other world the laws of physics didn't always hold up and that brought about magic. The game had a vary good reasoning as to why there was no magic in the world of law, and technology was able to pass early renaissance tech in the world of magic. That theory could work here, but I think I would butcher it so I try to find a link to an article about it
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It might've just been me, but I got the impression that the red gate scene was a dream. If it weren't a dream, wouldn't Lucca's actions have changed her future completely?
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It's not a dream. You can observe the changes in Lara from then on in the game.
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Time travlers immunity and time bastard. Even if it did changer her future It would not have affected her because the aft of tiem traveling itself dislocates the travler from the consequences of their own actions. And the "new" lucca would have been replaced by the original upon entry into 1000 ad. On top of that if you read all the papers in that sequence after you saved lara Her decision to learn machinery remaiend constant even though her mother was saved, there was jus ta slight change in reason.
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So, in short, that means if Lavos did make the Gate, it wouldnt have had any effect and would have backfired (helping Lucca instead of setting her brain on frapee)?
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I believe the only reason it was red was because the game developers wanted the players to know it was a special gate. The color of the gate probably had no cannonical signifigance, especially because you never see another "red gate" in the course of the series.
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not even the gates that dragged the guru's were red.. oh! on top of that.. did anyone see a gate key get used on the red gate.?
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oh! on top of that.. did anyone see a gate key get used on the red gate.?
It was already open. A Gate Key wasn't required.
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I thought it (Gate Key) was because it made the 'Gate chime' sound effect. I dont think the two Gates that the player uses without the sound were the ones that sucked Marle, then Crono, into 600 AD at the beginning.
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Ooh, I just played through CT the other day, and this very question sprung to mind. It's unfortunate that they give us such little information about it.
While it is plausible that Lavos was responsible for this special red gate, it wouldn't make all that much sense in the long run. Logically speaking Lavos nor the planet would have any reason to do this, as it only really seems to benefit the family itself. The only reason I can see Lavos trying to stop Lucca's interest in mechanics would be to stop her from building here teleportation device, which inevitably would be the start of the entire journey, assuming the gates wouldn't have been opened some other way.
And that may all make plenty of sense, but the effect I got from the red gate and that whole scenario was some "special" force was responsible for it, not covered by the game itself. Which would be indicated by it's color and how it related only to Lucca. Another reason I say this is because she seemed to know it was there as if it were calling her. I wondered about it when she just sprung up out of her sleep and ran into the woods, it seems as if she knew it was there already. Think about it, how many scenarios would you run into the darkness of the woods by yourself other than to, oh I don't know, relieve yourself. Also, thinking back she seemed to be acting kind of weird during that whole event (don't hold me to that one, I can't remember all that well).
So, Lavos? Special Force? Planet? You're guess is as good as mine, either way it had little effect on anything aside from slight changes in the family for the better, which is why I think it was some other party we're unaware of.
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I still think it was lavos....With the plan that stopping the tradgedy would stop her intrest in machines.... and perhaps he made the gate so that it bypasses time travelers immunity in the hopes that the change would be significant enough to change time and since the rest of the crew was not time traveling... even if it did not bypas tti they would have changed with the time line change.. and since nothing was significantly changed it did not happen. Although Proto seemed to have an idea of what was going on when she came out of the gate.
Perhaps also ((if it was)) lavos made the gate to force her to watch it again in an attempt to break her will. The entire endeavor would not have gone well without lucca... almost impossible if you count her brain power in to the figuring things out.
My 2 and a half cents
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Is it actually stated Lucca made the Telepod? Taban was pretty clever too, maybe he made it.
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In the fair it was called Lucca's crazy invention not her dad's invention.
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Hmm yeah you're right, I remember now.
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Well, I have some sort of personal theory for that, but still is pretty weak.
Maybe, and just maybe the gate it's made by Lucca.
You see, the planet, entity or whatever can create gates to relive it's memories and somehow try to improve them. Why, well... that's another topic.
The point in here is that maybe that gate it's different, because it doesn't relive a key-moment of the planet, it only change a point (a key point) in Lucca's life.
Obviously we can discuss the nature of the creator of the gate, but still it fuels from Lucca own memory.
Because of this, we can see two possible scenarios. (in fact there are a lot more, but I'll put the two great and more human ethical ones)
Good Scenario (A.K.A "The entity way"): In this possible solution, the gate it's fueled by the entity in an attempt to show Lucca an example of what it's doing. By helping his mom, probably Lucca gains a bit more understanding about the entity nature, early discussed, and why the gates and all the adventure took place.
This also leads to the fact that, besides what happens, the true power of fate it's ruled by intentions, free will and inner strengh... more than events, although these are obvioulsy important. (Such as what happens with the masamune after the ghost sidequest)
Bad Scenario (A.K.A "Lavos way"): In this possible solution, the gate it's fueled by Lavos in an attempt to stop Lucca from starting all the menace that the journey implies.
Still, things goes sour and besides the result, Lucca still become what she is... although her own motivation it's fueled by two different event... making probably a slight change, not in the events... but in her way to see the world.
The same fact it's re-stated in this explanation, inner strengh and free will are the true source of fate.
We can still think other way to see this event... and think that the entity itself created this gate, while all the other gates are created by the planet/Lavos struggle, in which the party it's a kind of inmunological system... or arbiter.
Maybe it's a gift, after all the long way and work Lucca has done. (Yeah, the party has seen and suffered a lot, but Lucca is probably the only one with the caliber to see the events behind that gate)
Of course this is just a silly theory... so there should be a lot flaw points.
Well, that's all.
Bye
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It is not all that improbable that the Entity was showing benevolence to the party, for 'healing' a large patch of the land. Consider the following:
Desert - a patched of scorched Earth. Life does not prosper here. The common picture of the skull in the sand comes to mind.
Forest - Luscious, healthy, life in abundance.
Stumpy Lara - continuous state sadness, regret, depression. Does not contribute to a healthy happy life.
Long-legged Lara - happy, 'full of life', feeling sexy for Taban
Simply put,
Desert - Bad
Forest - Good
No legs - Bad
Yes Legs - Good
You scratch the Entities back, and it could scratch yours too. As for why it picked Luca; as far as we know she had the toughest childhood out of them all, so she is deserving of such a chance to correct that tragic event. And for the red colour of the Gate, that could be explained as the Entity reaching for Luca, by calling to her innate Fire (which usually is red, among other similar colours) abilities. Or something along those lines
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That pretty much hits it on the nail for me, flacid-er, placidchap. I never thought about Lucca's Magic Element before...Though does that open up questions of the Entity's Element being Water? lol
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flacid-er
Had a chuckle there...Trans_Vestite-er, V_Translanka
As for the Entity's element being water, that certainly makes sense, considering the general consensus is that the Entity is the planet. Water is the source of life. Water covers most of the planet. So water being innate to the Entity is quite likely. Which is why blue is the colour of the gates.
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Not to mention all of the water crap that's talked about in the species origin in Chrono Cross...
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i just always assumed that the entity made it just for lucca. like to be super nice. seriously.
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Skimmed the tread, so forgive me if this has been brought up already, but didn't they make it pretty clear that the sapling used in Fiona's forest had magical properties? So the forest itself is ripe for magical goings-on such as one-time gates. It could be similar to the magic used in the Time Egg and other items, where a person's will and desire counts.
Most of the PCs in Trigger had crappy pasts, but they either got over it or gave up except for Lucca, and being reminded of it during the conversation could have contributed.
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God
Elaborate.
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Probably wrong but wouldn't that sapling from 12,000 BC be the sprout for the forest in 1000 AD? If that's the case and it had magical properties, maybe that's what caused the poral to appear? Then again, that could probably be proven wrong and thrown out the window.
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It is certainly implied that the sapling from 12,000 B.C. is the same as the sapling in 1000 A.D. but it is not explicitely stated. Given that you can't complete that side quest if the Lady in Zeal destorys the sappling, there is certainly a connection but the nature of that connection is unknown.
Certainly the magical powers of the sapling seems to be relevent to the discussion. It "saved the environment," Robo was able to use sap from trees in that forest to make the Green Dream, the forest is where we learn of the entity, Lucca's portal was there, and it may be (though there is no real evidence) that the Astral Amulet might contain a cutting from this forest/plant.
To note, however, referencing Placidchap's statement regarding deserts; deserts are fairly seldom devoid of life. Even Death Valley can be covered in flowers at times.
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I'm not really sure I'm ready to believe that it's just the forest's magical properties & Lucca's will that create the Red Gate...I think it IS interesting to note that the GreenDream that Robo creates & the wooden amulet that is the Astral Amulet both save things from death/danger and both, in essence, reverse time...the Red Gate thus could be extrapolated as being an extension of that power, though on a much, much larger scale and acting on a far lesser amount of danger (in fact no immediate danger at all)...>_>
Though perhaps it was simply an easier way for the Entity to step in, by increasing the magical properties of the forest. I think I could believe that much at least.
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I'm not saying it was the forest entirely, just that, if it was indeed the Entity, it had something there to work with instead of just whooshing a gate out of nowhere.
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Belthasar did it.
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Belthasar did it.
Given if that is true, the sapling would have to be a pseudo-time egg. (Think about it. A sapling is an organism that is just beginning its life cycle; so too is an egg. And given that it was a component in opening a space-time(Red) gate, it is rather uncanny. :wink:)
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Belthasar did it.
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2928/71242945er2.png)
There ARE similarities there, I'll admit...Hmmm...
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Someone know Paganism they belive that the earth the sun and the moon were "Gods".
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Belthasar did it.
(http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/2928/71242945er2.png)
There ARE similarities there, I'll admit...Hmmm...
I don't know if it's the point, but... that's Gaspar.
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I don't know if it's the point, but... that's Gaspar.
The one on the left is Sarda (from 8-bit theatre) and the one on the left is infact Belthasar (Gaspar wore red).
Hmmm... the two are quite similar, especially around the 'stache.
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I don't know if it's the point, but... that's Gaspar.
The one on the left is Sarda (from 8-bit theatre) and the one on the left is infact Belthasar (Gaspar wore red).
Hmmm... the two are quite similar, especially around the 'stache.
Whoops! You're right; I had the wrong visual-name association at the time.
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It's alright, they are all cut from the same cloth anyway. If you ask me, they are one super being split thrice.
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Um, I just used Sarda because he's "The Wizard That Did It", which in turn references the common game concept of using "A wizard did it" as a way to explain away plot holes & inconsistencies...plus, yeah, I noticed they both got that 'stache going...
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Um, I just used Sarda because he's "The Wizard That Did It", which in turn references the common game concept of using "A wizard did it" as a way to explain away plot holes & inconsistencies...plus, yeah, I noticed they both got that 'stache going...
Sounds like the entity. Hm, so maybe the entity is a wizard.
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maybe we have a multiverse here, and the entity is a beloved sage-like character from a completely different, unrelated game. so translanka may be correct in thinking that its sarda!
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Sounds like the entity. Hm, so maybe the entity is a wizard.
A wizard, eh? Well, I think that gives us just enough information to deduce exactly what the entity looks like, then.
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v460/HuginMunin/Entity.jpg)
sorry about the poor quality; I'm not at my home computer, so I am reduced to MS Paint for photo editing.
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That looks about right, although I always pictured it with a flamboyant hat or foreboding hood...but I could be wrong with that.
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Um, I just used Sarda because he's "The Wizard That Did It", which in turn references the common game concept of using "A wizard did it" as a way to explain away plot holes & inconsistencies...plus, yeah, I noticed they both got that 'stache going...
Sounds like the entity. Hm, so maybe the entity is a wizard.
Maybe the gurus are merely the human manifestation of the entity.
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How did this turn into a talk about the entity? xD
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Simple, my dear Fan Project Leader. Lucca's Red Gate has no explanation and is odd enough to make any theory regarding it little more than ethereal speculation. And when there is no plausible explanation, "the Entity Did it" is the only avenue of discussion that is really left (or so it would seem).
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Gates, as we know them, only come from two sources: the Entity and Lavos. It's perfectly logical then to assume that the Entity is also the cause of this Gate (as assuming it's Lavos makes pretty much no sense at all).
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Gates, as we know them, only come from two sources: the Entity and Lavos. It's perfectly logical then to assume that the Entity is also the cause of this Gate (as assuming it's Lavos makes pretty much no sense at all).
Unless Lavos isn't the evil being that we all think it is. Just misunderstood really.
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We don't all think he is an evil being. Personally, I'd claim that Lavos is amoral, along the lines of Galactus.
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Yeah, that's more or less how I see it as well, Thought...though Galactus was a pain in the butt a lot of times...especially what he did to Norrin Radd...he was more evil than you give him credit, I think...but I understand what you mean, I think...anyways!...
It doesn't really make sense for Lavos to randomly help someone...especially if Lavos has any inkling what-so-ever as to the significance of who Lucca is and what Lucca & Co. (doesn't have the same ring as Crono & Co, does it? lol)'s ultimate goal is...The Entity, at least, has motive.
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Yeah, Galactus is a punk. But I figured people could see him as being amoral moreso than other infamous extra terrestrial threats, like Cthulu.
And Lucca Ltd. still doesn't have the same ring, but I think it might work a bit better than "Lucca & Co."
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Lucca Ltd has a better flow.
As for Lavos, if he was in a PD and could see all timelines, maybe it happened to notice this event and it couldn't stop watching and kept seeing that poor lady lose her legs every moment of its existance..."Man, that is depressing, how can I possibly feed off this planet with that always happening. It is distracting." and opened up a gate for Lucca to fix it already, so it can concentrate on absorbing DNA and such. Pure speculation of course. 8)
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Lavos was depressed by that? man, he caused the destruction of a floating civilization,
killed humanity's future and created widespread suffering on its remnants, then he just gets depressed
by a single lady losing her legs?
the Entity being the cause of the Red Gate is still more plausible, but then,
it's still up for debate..
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Who did speak with Serge in Terra Tower?
Maybe the Planet...
The same thing bother me about the Red Gate.
:(
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Lavos was depressed by that? man, he caused the destruction of a floating civilization,
killed humanity's future and created widespread suffering on its remnants, then he just gets depressed
by a single lady losing her legs?
the Entity being the cause of the Red Gate is still more plausible, but then,
it's still up for debate..
Observing/causing a destructive event that happens to a large mass of people is different than observing/causing that event to a single person.
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right, placidchap.
it's murder if it's one person and genocide if it's a lot of them.
damn you, lavos. damn you all to hell.
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So... Lavos is Joseph Stalin?
Interesting that both Lavos and the Entity would have mustaches, then.
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Maybe the entity is Nazi :lol:
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League of Extraordinary Moustachemen
Just noticed your picture there, Thought. Nice touch with the hat. Now it feels complete.
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I believe the red gate is red due to its relative recency. There is no real evidence to prove or disprove this, but my thoughts are that the color of the gate is indicative of its displacement... However, since all of the gates are a fair number of centuries displaced, they all seem to be the same color. Essentially they go from infrared (no time displacement at all) to ultraviolet (a portal directly to the End of Time/Darkness Beyond Time, and no I'm not implying they are the same, but simply that the gate would lead to one of them.)
Since infrared is invisible to the naked eye, it is a fitting description for the normal flow of time. Since the End of Time is theoretically after infinity, it too would need an invisible gate.
Note: the gate in 2300AD was not a gate to the End of Time, but rather the conservation of time redirected it there.
Has anyone considered how Robo may have played into the red gate's existance? I'll need to think more on it before I come up with a basic theory, but it could be that there are gates everywhere, and possibly Robo detected that one by chance?
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I THINK I'm wrapping my mind around what you just said, Satoh.
The only problem would be, "If Robo could detect the gates, why didn't he use any of the others ones? Or, if there are more gates, how come the group never randomly stumbles upon them? And, if there are other gates, it seems that the odds that that one gate would lead to 990 AD is extremely unlikely.
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As I said, it isn't necessarily a working theory, just something I came up with spur-of-the-moment... If I wanted to I could research the scenes leading up to, during and after, and come up with evidence... but at the moment I'm struggling with my chrono cross discs...
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How did this turn into a talk about the entity? xD
Since this red gate appears right after the game's first discussion of the Entity, its pretty clear, imo, that the game designers were telling us the red gate is from the Entity. However, I don't think its necessarily true that all gates are from the Entity. In fact, I bet coloring that gate red was to show that this gate is different because its the only one created by the Entity. Blue gates could be naturally occurring phenomena, requiring a certain device to fully exploit.
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I need a second look at this because I am color blind, but is the gate at 0:10 red?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK82Ior1UaI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK82Ior1UaI)
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I thought we went over the redness...one major difference about the Red Gate that differs itself from the Blue Gates is that that alters both time and space (moving Lucca from Fiona's Forest to Ashtear Island)...
And Kebrial, I think you are...I don't see any red there...
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I need a second look at this because I am color blind, but is the gate at 0:10 red?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK82Ior1UaI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK82Ior1UaI)
It's green.
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I thought we went over the redness...one major difference about the Red Gate that differs itself from the Blue Gates is that that alters both time and space (moving Lucca from Fiona's Forest to Ashtear Island)...
Hmm, that's true.