Chrono Compendium
Zenan Plains - Site Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kara Kazeneko on June 10, 2007, 02:47:52 am
-
Apologies for my being away from the boards for a little while (RL crap, like my stupid job at BK getting rather lamer thanks to other employees being a pain in the ass to my boss, making me work extra hours, etc.).
But one thing that has become a real bummer for me lately aside from crap in my life, is that my fave board ("Order of the Black Wind", which I link to in my sig banner) has turned rather dead. Once upon time, it was active and everything was cool and badass; now, it looks like me and my friend Jordan (Donraj on that board) are the only ones who ever check in on it. It's pathetic and sad, and it'd kill me to see it really die (I helped birth it, via a discussion at another board concerning my love of Magus and a mini fanclub I once ran back in 1997).
I made a topic over there on how dead it's been, but I doubt anyone will post in it. *depressed sigh*
Just makes me feel crappier than I've already been feeling lately.....
-
Awww...
Thats bad news...I really hope things get better for you, as well as the board. I'm sure things will!
-
Almost every community but Gamefaqs is dead or dying. Chrono Crisis is obviously active. But Chronicles and Chronoshock are down to core regulars doing off-topic posting, and the rest are dwindling.
-
Almost every community but Gamefaqs is dead or dying. Chrono Crisis is obviously active. But Chronicles and Chronoshock are down to core regulars doing off-topic posting, and the rest are dwindling.
Oh, we've been doing off-topic posting for, well... years now, come to think of it. Chronicles hasn't been serious Chrono discussion since about a year or two after I started posting there. And nowadays even the off topic conversation is limited.
That said, I've posted about one thing there in the last week.
-
It's true...the Chrono community is in desperate need of an injection of new material, be it from Crisis, Chrono Trigger +, some other fan project, a new port of Chrono Trigger, or--ohpleasepleaseplease--a new Chrono game from Square. With any luck we may be seeing a port soon that'll be used to test the waters. I know we've been saying that for several months now, but we've not recieved any news that confirms or denies the hypothesis, so we're just going to roll with until we do hear otherwise.
-
It's really sad that several projects are down. :(
A new Chrono game from Square would be cool.
-
Hey now! Chrono sites can't be dying! I'm just getting started.
Well with the sites and the fanboy-ish praise of the Chrono-tacular experience. But it was a long time in coming. I'm not tired of it yet.
Post more! Be more awesome!
Please?
-
You can be certain the Compendium will.
-
What? Die or be more awesome?
-
What? Die or be more awesome?
...be more awesome, of course. Why would the Compendium die? There's plenty of neat stuff in store, and there's always our enthusiasm.
-
Ok, good. I would be most distraught if I had just boarded a sinking ship.
-
Oh, I would be heartbroken since I only just built up the courage to join the online fandom! If the Compendium died off soon after, I'd be devestated! :( But I don't think that will be happening since there are so many enthusiastic people around here. :)
Speaking of the fanboys around here, are there any fellow fangirls, or am I one of the only ones?
-
Speaking of the fanboys around here, are there any fellow fangirls, or am I one of the only ones?
I imagine there are some here, certainly. I don't see why there wouldn't be.
-
Hey, I'm a fangirl. Proudly been one since the game came out in 1995.
Concerning 'OBW', it technically has been dead a while - its owner abandoned it and the message board has only remained alive out of kindness to everyone who still frequents it (that, and she knows I'd KILL her if I lost all the stuff in an interactive fanfic/RP that I've been doing for a few years with some buds).
If only I made more money at my job, I'd buy OBW and make it better - gain more active members.
Another community that died which I once held most dear, "Chrono Dreamers", was an awesome place. Like OBW, it perished because the guy who ran it just up and lost interest (except worse; he became a total asshole and was rude to everyone who used to go there... now he runs a weird site for fans of the Nintendo DS). How I miss it... that place had the coolest art and message board themes (including one that I made, called "We Love Crono").
But hopefully the mighty CC will continue on strong. After all, this truly is the greatest fansite ever made (kudos to ZeaLitY for his genius, etc.), and has the most fantastic amount of content. Here's a great idea to make this place even better: recruit 'the lost' - those CT/CC fans that are drifting about the internet without a place to enjoy their most beloved game passion. I've already got the CT fans at Gaia Online interested in this site (yet right now we are focused on creating a new guild to replace our dying one; dying thanks to its owner being MIA for over a year - good thing he made me a moderator before disappearing). A mass recruitment scheme!
As the fansites pass away into the mists of time, let the lost souls be guided to a new homeland...
-
Yeah, I guess the fan aspect is the paradox of fansites -- when the "fan" in question loses interest, the site perishes and the cycle repeats itself. But I have documented all my duties and activities in case I must ever leave my position as Director.
-
Wow, female gamers! I'm sure such a statement must seem ignorant, and with all due respect to Kyronea's logical assertion that there should be some around, I find that female gamers are few and far between. Further, girls that enjoy good games (read: RPGs) are even more of a rarity, let alone self-professed fangirls. I'm not sure if it's different in other parts of the world (though I assume it is) but gaming is pretty much dominated by guys where I am. Heck, now that I think of it, I believe I only know one, personally.
-
There's a very good reason for that too: game companies cater to men, or rather, to those of us men who are more...juvinile when it comes to our sexual interests. Just take a look at the typical garb of a female in any game, say, Tekken. They tend to wear horribly inpratical clothing for their choice of occupation just because it makes them look "sexier." A lot of this rampent, if subtle, sexism pervades games, though it tends to pervade Japanese games far more often than Western games due to the sexism still somewhat ingrained into the culture there.
As such, any self-respecting female is going to look down upon this heavily and be turned off of games somewhat. It doesn't help that our own socities tend to push females towards the more "typically feminine" interests.
I'm hoping that as gaming progresses we'll see plenty more female gamers. We could certainly use plenty of them, at least.
-
And now to play devil's advocate...
I wouldn't say that the degree of sexuality portrayed in the games you mention necessarily denotes a juvenile attitude. I'm not saying I enjoy Tekken (and I think the DoA series is an even better example in this case), and I do agree that the women are portrayed in a ridiculous fashion, but I would argue that the majority of men of just about any age or level of maturity like attractive women. Is it necessary to have them dressed in Daisy Dukes and tube tops? Absolutely not. Is it reasonable that many men will find it appealling? Without a doubt. Now, of course, this says nothing about reasonable expectations regarding beauty versus societal demands and representations, but that's a whole other matter which I'm not about to get into.
Now as far as the issue of women being portrayed in an overtly sexual manner in a majority of video games, I think one need not go far to find sensibly designed female characters. Let's look at Chrono Trigger. We have the firey, independent-minded Marle, the super-genius Lucca, and the ultra-strong, progressive (give her a break, she's from 65 million years ago) Ayla. Now I'll grant that she's scantily clad, but I think it's in keeping with the prehistoric motif. If the prehistoric character was male, he'd probably be all bulging muscles and a loin cloth. One might argue Kino could be used as evidence to the contrary, but I would say his generally weak character demands a more modest representation.
So there's my two cents. I'll grant that there's a good deal of sexism in gaming, but I don't think it's quite so pervasive. Further, I don't necessarily ascribe such a sexism to a juvenile attitude towards sexuality, but rather an unenlightened one.
-
Oh wow, I didn't mean to stir anything up!
I just want to add my two cents in on the debate about scantily-clad women in video games. I personally love RPGs, and that's a majority of what I play. In most RPGs that I've played, I've come to view the depiction (clothing and such) of women to be representative of power. They outwardly show their power through a sexual nature. This may sound weird/twisted/strange, but bear with me.
I can think of no better example of this than Yunalesca from Final Fantasy 10. The woman is barely wearing anything at all, but you know from the moment you first hear her voice that she is someone you do not want to roll with. Her appearance oozes power through her sexuality. This is also true of Lulu, who is someone else you do not want to roll with.
Now consider Yuna. Conservatively clad and meek from the start of the game, she is someone that everyone else protects, or rescues. Face it, when you look at Yuna in FFX, "powerful" is not the first word that pops to mind. When you look at Lulu or Yunalesca, the words "scary" or "frightening" will probably be quicker.
Another example that pops into my head is from the FF7 game. There are monsters that you fight throughout the game that look like scantily-clad women. One of them is on the glacier, she's a snow maiden or something like that, and another (the Pollensalita) is in the very last dungeon of the game. She has a skill that you can learn called 'Angel Whisper', and it restores HP, fixes status ailments and revives a dead ally. That's a powerful healing ability, and who do you learn it from? Yes, a powerful, sexy, scantily-clad woman.
Also, considering that many games come from Japanese sources, you have to take into consideration their religions and secular traditions. Women hold far more dominant roles in mythology there than they do here in the West (think of Shinto Priestesses).
So when I see a scantily-clad woman in a Japanese video game, I think "wow, she's probably a tough cookie".
-
...
Now that's a completely different look on circumstances...and definitely an applicable one. I commend you, good madam(I've never said good madam before...it's always good sir...) for one point that gives me a completely different outlook on the matter. I'm not certain if I entirely agree with it in that it's what was intended by the game developers, but it's definitely a good outlook on the matter.
-
Hey, I wouldn't worry about stirring things up. It gives us more to talk about.
I'm with you on the examples from FFX, as I was furious right from the get-go that Yuna had such a dominant role in the game, as she's incredibly lame and a bane on my existence whenever I play FFX.
Lulu, on the other hand, is totally BA and a fixture in my primary 3 at all times (I just wish obtaining her celestial weapon wasn't such a pain).
I think the problem comes from the fact that while Japanese games do tend to depict women as both sexy and powerful, those of us living in the west get the bombshell-with-brains-of-a-gnat image thrown at us all too frequently.
Oh, and as an aside, the first word that popped into my mind when Lulu came along was "right". The second was "on".
-
I'm sure all women don't mind that women if video games are scantily clad.
-
Granted, but as rushingwind pointed out with her examples, the bared flesh and sexiness represents something. I'll bet there'd be less entusiasm if games had characters whose entire purpose was simply to be scantily clad. Not to mention that a game made up of calendar girls would probably be pretty boring.
-
Hey, I wouldn't worry about stirring things up. It gives us more to talk about.
Shame I can't blame it on Kyronea this time. =P
I honestly don't see the attraction in Lulu. Now Rikku, on the other hand... she's cute, sexy and she isn't even very scantily clad. Well, she is in X-2. But that game is an abomination and it completely ruined her. And Yuna, who's pretty in a different way, I guess.
Anyhow... I don't think scantily clad girls in games seems to repel female gamers- or at least it doesn't repel any female gamers I know, anyway.
Not to mention that a game made up of calendar girls would probably be pretty boring.
Well, yeah =/
-
It was the whole goth thing. It works. Plus, given that she was very black mage-y, I thought it was a nice touch. Rikku I found to be to loud and obnoxious. She kinda reminded me of my little sister. Very unsexy.
-
It was the whole goth thing. It works. Plus, given that she was very black mage-y, I thought it was a nice touch. Rikku I found to be to loud and obnoxious. She kinda reminded me of my little sister. Very unsexy.
Oh, I dunno. I'm only considering visual appeal here btw ;D
-
Yeah, I know what you mean. It's just that once the thought had entered my head when I started playing, it was there for good.
-
This is also true of Lulu, who is someone else you do not want to roll with.
I dunno. I wouldn't mind rolling with her.
...
[extracts mind from gutter]
There! Better. I really think the excessive amount of female flesh found in video games does turn women off video games. Imagine, guys, that there was a game that exclusively included guys in thongs playing beach volleyball. Now imagine this isn't a weird specialty game, but an offshoot of a major game that allows you to fight these same guys with mostly fully-clothed women. And even the most respected games in this second game's genre include guys revealing clothing that accentuates their most private bits. Imagine that most big games don't even have guys in them, just fully covered women, but when guys do pop up, they are usually portrayed primarily as sex symbols.
Yeah, there's a reason that although women certainly show an interest in the few games that DO cater to their interests, there are few avid female gamers.
I also have a problem with undressed=powerful. I dunno if it's a good message to send out there?
That said, I think the Chronoverse is pretty good about welcoming women I think. Even though there are sexy girls in Cross, there are also powerful women who don't also have to be sluts! And there's plenty o' beefcake too. Nikki shirks shirts, and Karsh and Guile also show tantalizing glimpses of bare chest. Oh la la!
...in case anyone is confused, yes, I am a (straight) guy. I'm just comfortable about it.
-
Just don't give a damn, that's what I do. If anyone needs half naked(or is it half clothed?) women fighting in mud or whatever, it is his/her thingy. If a lot of people like it, and pay for it, I understand why companies go on that way. Blame ourselves. Of course most guys just prefer good looking women over cool looking guys, that's why a mix.
Ever played wrestling games?
-
I hate to play devil's advocate, Mr. Molecule, but anytime that any element of my being gets reduced (elevated?) to the status of sex object, I'm a pretty happy camper as it doesn't happen often (read: ever).
Yes, I know, if it happened all the time and no one heard my ideas because I was just another pretty face (yeesh!), I would know what's it like for the shoe to be on the other foot. In any case, as was pointed out previously, with Japanese games it's an aspect of culture. Besides, one way or another, sexiness is powerful. The example may be tasteless, but when drooling idiots go into a strip club and empty their pockets for women to disrobe, who is in control of whom?
Oh, and CyberSarkany, I would say it's half-naked. It depends on what's considered to be the default. I say clothed is. Others might disagree since we come into the world all nakee, but I'd say full clothed is the standard when one is portrayed, hence to remove half of the clothes, one would therefore be half naked.
-
If anyone needs half naked(or is it half clothed?) women
Reframing the great philosophical debates of our times. :wink:
Look, DOA itself isn't the problem. There'll always be fringe applications of any medium (film, novels, etc.) dedicated to sex. Sex sells, after all. And heck, SEX isn't the problem. It's the incredibly juvenile attitude the game industry, in general, takes towards sex that's the problem. In no other medium are women so objectified and are there so few realistic depictions of women. I'm including comics here. Yeah, it's bad.
..for a better worded version of what I mean, see points 4 & 5 of this article. (http://www.pointlesswasteoftime.com/games/manifesto.html)
Kanadyets: Not only is your example tasteless, it's wrong. It's so wrong it hurts. Strippers aren't powerful. They're being exploited both by the customer and their management. They are, in general, desperate women who aren't really in control of their lives. While it's true that accepting and understanding sex and in trn displaying what you've got can certainly be empowering, it's reallysomething you have to do on your own terms. Not those of a sleazy strip club owner.
-
Feminist thinking is divided on the question of sex employment, Molecule. There are plenty of voices from many perspectives, and the discussion is by no means settled. Accordingly, you're simply wrong to have made the blanket statement that "strippers aren't powerful."
-
Wow, thanks for the save, Lord J.
As for the example, Mr. Molecule, I never produced one. I just posed the question, and you took it where you felt you needed to go. Further, since you say that these women (and bear in mind that there are also men who take their clothes off for money) "are, in general, desperate women", we can therefore conclude that while you perceive this to be the norm, it is not the case 100% of the time. That being said, you must therefore, in some degree, acknowledge that there are some people out there who are in complete control and have made the decision to pursue this particular profession with sound mind and strict judgement. With this in mind, it's not reasonable for you to make sweeping generalizations in order to prove your point.
I'm not saying that there's no one out there being exploited (although I think people will interpret exploitation more loosely than I, whereas I will hold people accountable for their decisions at all times, no matter the circumstances...but that's another issue) but it's not a given. Further, do whom do you think has greater respect for the hypothetical sex professionals involved? The one who will defer to another's right to make their own decision, or the one who presumes these people are so weak and subject to circumstance that they would sell their proverbial souls?
-
Feminist thinking is divided on the question of sex employment, Molecule. There are plenty of voices from many perspectives, and the discussion is by no means settled. Accordingly, you're simply wrong to have made the blanket statement that "strippers aren't powerful."
Sorry, I didn't realize it was necessary to say, "While there are many contesting opinions on this issue, mine is that--" before I stated my opinion on a contested issue. My bad. But yeah, I guess I did come off a bit strong, sorry about that.
Things that bother me about the idea that sex=power:
1. Historically it hardly ever works. When was the last time that female sexuality resulted in anything but opression for women on any sort of large scale?
2. It's fundamentally sexist, as it implies that men will do anything for sex. Or conversely, that women are sluts who will give up purity for what they want.
3. It's hardly ever indicative of a heathly understanding of sex. In Spider Robinson's (science fiction) book Callahan'sLady, about the one honorably run brothel in New York City, the whole point is that sex is seen as something two adults do for fun, and nothing more. The main character, a young prostitute used to using sex as a tool, (& thus, she thinks, a source of power) has to be re-educated in what sex means before she can really get anywhere in life. Yes, it's fiction, but I think it makes a good point.
Also, strippers provide a service. Do we really think of other service providers, like waiters and taxi drivers, being more powerful than the people they provide the service for? People who have disposable income to spend on luxury services, while the service providers usually barelymade enough to scrape by on?
Okay, the reason I stated my opinion so strongly in my initial response is that to say "sex workers can be powerful," while theoretically correct, ignores the massive, widespread exploitation and abuse of women in sex worker positions. Any women working as a stripper in a bar frequented only by "drooling idiots" is likely to be exploited. Overly sexualised women in video games are definately exploited, or rather feminine sexuality is being exploited, because these women aren't real. I'm not even saying sex employment is by definition is a bad thing. I'm saying that the way it's implemented now, with the workers being construed as dirty harlots and the patrons being construed as drooling idiots, with the idea of a women's power to idiot-ify a man and a man's power to objectify a women maintaining center stage, it's no real way to give power to women. It's no real way to be.
..okay, that was in reply to Lord J. And Kanadyets typed up a whole thing while I was wrestling with this... here goes:
Sorry about the sweepingness of my generalizations. I meant to imply that exploitation was the norm, not that it occured in every instance. And yes, you did posit an example. In debating circles we call that a rhetorical question. The answer isn't given, but it's bloody well implied.
Of course people should be held accountable for their decisions. Here, it's you who seem to be assuming that I beleive sex workers to be "selling their proverbial souls." Never have I said anything to imply that stripping or other forms of sex work are inherently wrong. The only bad decision the sex workerwould be making is staying in a bad situation. And maybe it's the only way for them to get money they know, so it's not so much a decisions. That's where the exploitation and abuse tend to come in.
-
Sexuality is actually one of the only female powers that has been seen in history. A sexy woman can get whatever she wants.
And many sex workers are powerful. Maybe not in China or India, but in far more developed countries, a stripper can feel proud of herself and enjoy her work.
-
I would differentiate between the stripper and the cabbie based on the luxuriousness of the service being provided, if you'll forgive the term. I suppose this is nebulous as it requires all parties involved (us, of course) do establish a hierarchy of value regarding the services in question. With that in mind, I do feel confident enough to put forward the suggestion that we can agree that the ability to get from place to place or to eat (and I know there are alternatives, but I'm working with your examples for the sake of argument) are of greater importance than the desire to view an attractive woman in little to no clothing, dancing suggestively. Additionally, to compare costs, the stripper is a far more extravagant expense. As such, the stripper commands the situation moreso than the cabbie or the waiter.
I could pursue a different tack as well. While transportation and food and drink by their nature require an expense, sexual gratification does not.
Lastly, I would agree with you that the whole experience is rather distasteful. That being said, the strongest statement I can issue in that vein is that simply, it's just not for me. What other people choose to do in the same circumstances, however, is their business. Just because I don't want to be involved in it doesn't mean that I have the right to criticize it as a lower form of existance. This is starting to tie into the other thread we had going about comparative value of human beings. By my choices, I am making a statement of what I believe to be superior. Inherent in that statement is the acknowledgement of inferior activites, choices, etc. Nevertheless, I can act only on my own behalf, and while others might engage in something I would look down upon in my own circumstances, it's not for me to judge the rest as living improperly.
It's an unfortunate part of the reality in which we live. People will do things we don't like. For me, it's simply hands off. I would ask the same of anyone else when it came to my affairs.
-
Feminist thinking is divided on the question of sex employment, Molecule. There are plenty of voices from many perspectives, and the discussion is by no means settled. Accordingly, you're simply wrong to have made the blanket statement that "strippers aren't powerful."
Sorry, I didn't realize it was necessary to say, "While there are many contesting opinions on this issue, mine is that--" before I stated my opinion on a contested issue. My bad. But yeah, I guess I did come off a bit strong, sorry about that.
Things that bother me about the idea that sex=power:
1. Historically it hardly ever works. When was the last time that female sexuality resulted in anything but opression for women on any sort of large scale?
2. It's fundamentally sexist, as it implies that men will do anything for sex. Or conversely, that women are sluts who will give up purity for what they want.
3. It's hardly ever indicative of a heathly understanding of sex. In Spider Robinson's (science fiction) book Callahan'sLady, about the one honorably run brothel in New York City, the whole point is that sex is seen as something two adults do for fun, and nothing more. The main character, a young prostitute used to using sex as a tool, (& thus, she thinks, a source of power) has to be re-educated in what sex means before she can really get anywhere in life. Yes, it's fiction, but I think it makes a good point.
Also, strippers provide a service. Do we really think of other service providers, like waiters and taxi drivers, being more powerful than the people they provide the service for? People who have disposable income to spend on luxury services, while the service providers usually barelymade enough to scrape by on?
Okay, the reason I stated my opinion so strongly in my initial response is that to say "sex workers can be powerful," while theoretically correct, ignores the massive, widespread exploitation and abuse of women in sex worker positions. Any women working as a stripper in a bar frequented only by "drooling idiots" is likely to be exploited. Overly sexualised women in video games are definately exploited, or rather feminine sexuality is being exploited, because these women aren't real. I'm not even saying sex employment is by definition is a bad thing. I'm saying that the way it's implemented now, with the workers being construed as dirty harlots and the patrons being construed as drooling idiots, with the idea of a women's power to idiot-ify a man and a man's power to objectify a women maintaining center stage, it's no real way to give power to women. It's no real way to be.
..okay, that was in reply to Lord J. And Kanadyets typed up a whole thing while I was wrestling with this... here goes:
Sorry about the sweepingness of my generalizations. I meant to imply that exploitation was the norm, not that it occured in every instance. And yes, you did posit an example. In debating circles we call that a rhetorical question. The answer isn't given, but it's bloody well implied.
Of course people should be held accountable for their decisions. Here, it's you who seem to be assuming that I beleive sex workers to be "selling their proverbial souls." Never have I said anything to imply that stripping or other forms of sex work are inherently wrong. The only bad decision the sex workerwould be making is staying in a bad situation. And maybe it's the only way for them to get money they know, so it's not so much a decisions. That's where the exploitation and abuse tend to come in.
Or, to make a long story short, you're pointing out that there's still rampant misogyny in the world. Right you are. It's gruesome. As to women who work in the sex business, the thing that makes their work different today than at most other times in history is that our society has become less criminal. These women are much less likely than in the past to be attacked, and, if they are, they have more recourses than ever before. Notwithstanding the awful plight of women in the sex trade under duress, women who voluntarily work in the adult industries are able to cash in on their sexuality--for which there is always demand. You ask why it is we don't think of other service workers like cabbies as "powerful." The answer is that it depends on how you see it. There is power in being able to hold a steady job--the power of fiscal independence, not to be understated. And for many women who want money--for whatever reasons--this is one recourse available to them. That's the power. We call it powerful explicitly because women up until the twentieth century had been forced into almost complete subservience on the grounds of their sexuality. To use that same sexuality as a means of emancipation is noteworthy.
Sexuality is actually one of the only female powers that has been seen in history. A sexy woman can get whatever she wants.
Good grief, man. Do I really have to sock it to ya at three in the morning? Look...sex is not "one of the only female powers that has been seen in history." Women are very powerful creatures, by any measure. This is a trademark of all human beings. Women's fatal flaw was being relatively weaker and slower, and perhaps less aggressive in general, than men. That's what led to their downfall and subjugation. But their powers have always been there. The fact that women have been able to expand into almost every domain previously reserved by men, for men, in such a small number of years, and have proven themselves just as competent on the whole, is reason enough to send you smarting back to your dark space in the slime under the rocks.
Sexuality was merely the lens through which male-dominated society defined and perceived women. We place altogether too much emphasis on it, for, as men have been allowed to prove for millennia, there is much more to the human condition--and human power--than sex.
-
Wow, not bad for 3am. My hat goes off to you. It's just past 4 here, and my efforts are severely lacking (see above).