Chrono Compendium
Enhasa Halls - Chrono Series Analysis => Time, Space, and Dimensions => Topic started by: Drumguy074 on December 11, 2003, 03:10:09 am
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I have been thinking about this for a couple of days, and was trying to decide if Magus would actually be able to change his past. In other words, was he doing something completely different than what happened during the first time he witnessed the events in Zeal, or was he merely playing out a roll that had already happened?
This boils down to the question of whther or not the past can truly be changed, or will history turn out as it should because you tried to change it?
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I just thought of a good example as I was posting my last theory. When you travel back to 600 AD, Guardia is at war with Magus. Guardia still exists in 1000 AD, so clearly Guardia should triumph over Magus. The second time you visit 600, you must help a dessimated Guardian military fight back the troops of Magus. Had you not shown up, wouldn't it stand to reason that Magus and his army of mystics would have defeated Guardia and taken over the kingdom?
It seems to me that the only part of history you can actually change in the game is whether or not Lavos is defeated.
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Magus' disappearance due to the Lavos summoning was nigh at hand anyway; the Mystics would have fallen apart even if they had crossed Zenan bridge.
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I have been thinking about this for a couple of days, and was trying to decide if Magus would actually be able to change his past. In other words, was he doing something completely different than what happened during the first time he witnessed the events in Zeal, or was he merely playing out a roll that had already happened?
This boils down to the question of whether or not the past can truly be changed, or will history turn out as it should because you tried to change it?
Magus' experience as the prophet is the best example of time travelers actually changing the past. His childhood memories as shown in the flashback on North Cape are different than what you witness in the Ocean Palace. The timeline which produced Magus was not the same as the one produced by Crono and Magus' actions.
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I think there is no question that time changes. Porre's mayor becoming generous, saving Crono's life with the Time Egg, defeating Lavos in 1999 AD, Robo reviving Fiona's forrest, etc.
The Chrono series has these rules setup to avoid the paradox that seems to exist here. I'd like to think that it isn't time related. However, the game's plot is interrupted to give s a little logical explanation of what the grandfather paradox is. Remember the four Marles and the enemy killing off the first one, causing the rest to disappear? Why would they put all that crap in there?
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Lucca just explained what she perceived was happening. She had no concept of the Entity, or any other reason that Marle would dissapear. She was so excited about traveling through time that she immediately assumed the grandfather paradox was the reason. As zeality said earlier if Marle had truly unmade herself then Chrono never would have had a chance to travel back in time to save her.
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We have a bit of complication that arose after I made an outright challenge to detractors who claimed Trigger was rife with plot holes. At first I thought this may be covered by warmgun's 'whose past no longer exists' axiom, but that only applies to memory. Here's the juice:
I have a bit of a theory on some of the events that happen throughout Chrono Trigger and Cross. I think that for all purposes of having an enjoyable game, there is time that sort of transcends time in the sense that things like Marle disappearing, or the Chronopolis appearing in the past don't happen instantly like they really should but rather, take a certain amount of time before they occur. I also noticed this when you defeat Lavos in Trigger the proper way, then Doan and Robo still exist, even though the future should be changed instantly and they would disappear. Obviously they used this so that they could stretch the rules of time travel.
The Marle paradox can now almost entirely be explained by the Entity; although this may externally appear like a case of gods transcending science, the reasons for the Entity's detaining are clear and purposeful.
My answer to the above problem: let us work under the Axioms & Corollaries definition of timelines. If the heroes of time battled Lavos in a time period other than 1000 A.D., returning to that period would mean Keystone T-1 would have instantly transpired and become Keystone T-2, as the heroes were temporarily displaced outside of time, allowing it to flow naturally. This would suggest that perhaps Doan and Robo do exist in Keystone T-2's future.
Unfortunately, this is traveling out of bounds. It is generally presumed that Squaresoft did not have Cross planned out, which is especially supported by the vagueness of Radical Dreamers. Thus, the 1000 A.D. Crono returns to is Keystone T-1. This suggests that the Rise of Porre did not occur in Keystone T-1, as Doan still exists.
Unfortunately, this is also traveling out of bounds, and the future was most likely not planned by Square. My only justification for this that I can offer is that despite the Rise of Porre, the Guardia line continues and Doan is able to live.
Unfortunately, for the Guardia line to continue, Marle and Crono would have to live -- however, they are dead in Chrono Cross before the dimensions are restored, an event that succeeds 1000 A.D. Our only shred of hope may lie in the fat that Crono, Marle, and Lucca are only said to be dead in Home World, where they reveal such on Opassa Beach prior to fighting the Time Devourer. If Another World is the true timeline, Marle and Crono may have lived and been able to continue the Guardia line, to the delight of those who assert Guardia retained its status as a country or province in spite of Porre's militarism.
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The version of Doan who Lucca brings to 1000 AD is not from the ruined future. That Doan would have been sent into the Tesseract the instant Lavos was deveated. Lucca warped to the new, good future and brought that version of Doan back with her. This makes sense since the origninal Doan didn't know of the travelers' quest to defeat Lavos and would have no way of knowing the outcome of the final battle. The new Doan would have seen historical records of Lavos' defeat by the hands of the travelers (Day of Lavos Record).
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That's true GrayLensman, but what I meant when I said that I thought it was strange that Doan still exists at the end of the game is this: Chrono and Marle continue the line of Guardia, so if the case of them all dying is true, then he wouldn't exist. If they weren't killed (fingers crossed) then I would think that he shouldn't be such a raggedy looking old man anymore. And in response to his knowing of their exploits. Everyone knew of their exploits because Lucca told them, hence all of the different ancestors and descendents being there.
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At that time (2300 AD) would the Time Crash have happened yet? There must be some intermediate timeline between Lavos' defeat and 2400 AD in which the time Crash had not yet occurred. Perhaps Guardia did not fall in this intermediate timeline and the royal line was preserved. Lucca would have warped into this timeline. Then, once 2400 AD rolled around, the Time Crash occurs and changes the past in 7600 AD, creating a new timeline where Porre conquered Guardia and the fates of Marle and Crono are uncertain.
As for Doan's appearance, the same old man sprite is used in all sorts of places, such as the Mayor of Choras, who is by no means raggedy. I'll forgive the game designers for conserving space.
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This is minor enough to be considered a small exception, methinks. While it isn't the strongest support for the life of Crono and Marle, it nonetheless may add some probability to their survival.
Welcome to the Compendium, rotorkid! Another fine landing; we've got a sort of streak now with new members making interesting impacts on discussion.
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I think it should be noted that the only people who would know the difference between this "intermediate timeline" (Keystone T-1 as we've called it before) and the post-Time Crash timeline (Keystone T-2) would be Belthazar and the staff of Chronopolis, since they caused the change in history, and anyone at the End of Time at that moment (most likely just Spekkio and Gaspar).
Therefore, Crono, Marle and Lucca probably landed in Keystone T-2 in the ending of CT.
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I think it interesting that while Crono and the others celebrate their achievement at the fair, hell is brewing to the south...
Another gamefaqs forumer has lent a theory, which I will call the Time-Elasticity Theory.
As soon as time travel is allowed, you naturally run into problems with the grandfather/grandmother paradox, simply because you *can* do something.... But if we assume time travel to be possible, then there must be some reason as to why this paradox doesn't result in a time loop.
The obvious conclusion, despite the lack of good wording, is that time is not an 'instantaneous' fabric, on which events can influence the future immediately (sounds awful using temporal terminology, but there really aren't any other ways to say it). If time has an element of elasticity to it, so that things aren't immediate, then the paradox is solved, in a way, as the person will continue living, or something like that.
This may have repercussions when applied to other instances of time travel, but is nonetheless a good, limited explanation. I still think it odd in light of this theory that Marle would appear/disappear exactly upon Crono entering the room.
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I've made a royal refution to a gamefaqs member who argues the paradox is temporal. I invite you to follow the argument if it continues so that we may refine our own theories.
However, we also know that time travelers are shielded from effects they wrought on their past! Thus, it would not matter either way, as the Grandfather Paradox does not apply, and the pendant would have only had one use on a time traveler who is shielded from the effects of her own meddling! Thus, Marle and her actions are preserved even though the item that caused them no longer exists in its past context.
I disagree. If that were the case, Marle would not have disappeared when she showed up in 600AD and Queen Leene was not found. In Chrono Trigger, while their memories do not change, the world around them, and sometimes they themselves, do. This is, in addition to what I already mentioned, shown in the Black Omen and in the alternate ending where Marle turns into a Frog.
Then explain this, Igloo Bob.
Why does not Marle instantly disappear?
Why do the effects not pertain to Crono? Guardia not existing as it had would certainly mar his past as well.
Why can Lucca come in also? It would affect her.
Why doesn't Marle instantly reappear? Probability?
Why, then, does Lucca say otherwise?
JustinS1985: Lucca just explained what she perceived was happening. She had no concept of the Entity, or any other reason that Marle would dissapear. She was so excited about traveling through time that she immediately assumed the grandfather paradox was the reason. As zeality said earlier if Marle had truly unmade herself then Chrono never would have had a chance to travel back in time to save her.
Marle's Paradox raises too many questions and mortally wounds the plot unless it is simply resolved by Ockham's Razor. Why would something detain Marle? Why, to continue Crono's quest, of course! In the grand scheme of things, of course Leene would have to be there, but the questions above negate that time travelers who disrupt their own origins cease to exist in the Chrono series. The Entity
1. Made Leene's Bell ring
2. Created the gates
3. Set the events in order by having Marle go to 600 A.D.
4. Ultimately guided the party in some form to destroy Lavos
It is thus reasonable to believe that the Entity also here detained Marle. If Marle ceased to exist, why then would she have memories of the place she was held in?
If the effects apply instantly to Marle, why are Crono and Lucca immune? Thus, it seems that this is not a temporal paradox, but divine intervention of sorts. GrayLensman and bubblebobby2000 of the Chrono Compendium reveal more. GrayLensman: "The only purpose for Marle's disappearance was to preserve the Guardia royal line, which is very important. The supervisor and Doan had to exist so that the heroes could view the Day of Lavos record. Some agency made Marle disappear for this sole purpose, most likely the entity influencing history so that Lavos could be defeated." bubblebobby2000: "...On the Entity is where I'd put my money... He/She/It knows that if Marle is allowed to stay in 600AD Guardia, no one will look for Leene. The world can ill-afford Marle, a key member of the Heroes of Time, to phase out of existence if Leene had really been killed. So the Entity, whatever it was, sets up the situation for Crono to believe that Queen Leene must be saved, so that Marle will be free from the potential effects of her own action." Further proof is found in that Marle reappears upon Crono and Lucca's entrance, rather than as soon as Yakra is defeated and Queen Leene is saved.
Lastly, most of the endings are novelty, and the Successor of Guardia ending also has Marle exist as a normal human. Obviously she would feel the physiological changes of becoming a Frog, and her and Lucca's shock express this. Had the effects been instant and had they not been shielded from meddling with their own creation, being Frogs would come naturally to them, and they would not give it a thought.
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Why does not Marle instantly disappear?
Why do the effects not pertain to Crono? Guardia not existing as it had would certainly mar his past as well.
Why can Lucca come in also? It would affect her.
Why doesn't Marle instantly reappear? Probability?
I tend to believe the temporal inertia theory, as archived in BubbleBobby's Sea of Eden FAQ, which I'll copy and paste here:
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Temporal Inertia (by "jason79")
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Description
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We all know what inertia is, right? It's the tendency of an object to
remain either at rest or in motion. But this is a little bit different
a notion. Current physics, relativity, and quantum mechanics have given
us a much better view of the universe itself, and have revealed a few
peculiar aspects of our universe.
We live in what's called a space-time continuum, three 'dimensions' of
space, one 'dimension' of time. I don't remember the exact details, and
I certainly don't want to try to get into them here, but there is
evidence that space and time are like two sides of the same coin. There
are certain aspects of space which have a corresponding temporal
equivalent, and vice versa. This gave me the idea that, if we have
spatial inertia, why not temporal inertia? With that question in mind,
let's re-examine the sequence of events I fondly call 'The Marle
Paradox.'
1000AD: Crono meets Marle. Marle has pendant. Pendant messes with
Telepods, opens a Time Gate, and Marle lands in 600 AD.
Let's follow her for a moment. Sometime after she arrives, Guardia
soldiers find her, mistake her for the missing Queen Leene, call off
their search for the queen, and take Marle back to the Castle. This is
the catalyst for the paradox, because the moment the soldiers find
Marle and call off the search, history has been changed. We can easily
conjecture the outcome: Leene is not found, Leene dies before bearing
children, thus no descendants, and thus no ancestors for Marle.
Thus no Marle. Uh oh. Which now means Crono doesn't meet her, her
pendant doesn't interfere with the Telepods, Marle doesn't travel back
in time (since she no longer exists at this point), the search for
Leene is then not called off, and we're back to the original history in
which Leene is found and eventually bears children. This is an infinity
loop; because of its very nature, this sequence will oscillate back and
forth between past and present forever. Not good.
(cont next post)
From: Igloo Bob | Posted: 12/31/2003 10:05:21 PM | Message Detail
Fortunately, this is not how things worked out. We know from playing
the game that Crono and Lucca work to restore the original history, and
they are successful.
The problem, though, is the logic here. All three of the children
landed in 600 AD as a direct result of Marle's pendant. Keep in mind
that had the pendant not been involved, none of them would have ever
seen 600 AD. But when history is suddenly changed, only Marle is
affected.
Some people have argued that this is because only Marle was a
descendant of Leene. This is logically unsound. We're dealing with time
travel here, not genetics, and until we have evidence to the contrary,
logic is the only way to approach this.
That in mind, logic dictates that not only should Marle disappear from
600 AD, but so should Crono and Lucca! Yet they don't. Why not? It's
because of Marle that they're there in the first place. If she's no
longer born in the future, then the pendant would never have been
brought near the Telepods, and the Gate would never have formed.
Obviously, Crono and Lucca don't disappear. So, working from the
assumption that this is a valid story, there has to be some explanation
for why they didn't disappear.
The answer is temporal inertia. Remember that Marle arrived before
Crono, who arrived before Lucca. Also, remember that Marle was born in
approximately 984 AD, while Crono and Lucca only recently were affected
by her presence. This means that, when Marle accidentally changes
history, she will be affected by the time change sooner than Crono and
Lucca.
My theory is that Crono and Lucca would have disappeared, but they
restored history before that happened. Temporal inertia explains how
they were able to remain in 600 AD long enough to correct the timeline.
If we were to witness Marle's departure from 1000, after however long
it took for the soldiers to find her and call off their search, we
would see an instantaneous change in 1000, because as far as 1000 is
concerned, 600 is done and gone. But from 600's point of view, the time
change is yet to occur. Because Crono, Marle, and Lucca are in the
past, they are not affected by the time change right away. But as I
said above, they will be affected, and Marle is affected first, because
she is directly related to Leene.
Imagine the time change as a linear event, passing through the four
centuries between 600 and 1000. We would see it reaching Marle's birth
before it reached the moment her pendant influenced the Telepods. This
explains why Crono and Lucca didn't disappear right when Marle did. Of
course, if we waited around long enough, we'd see Crono disappear too,
and a moment later Lucca.
However, while the time change is changing history, Crono and Lucca
have however long it takes for the change to travel from Marle's birth
to when she met Crono to restore history. Otherwise, they'll get stuck
in an infinity loop. If we're vague enough about the amount of time
Marle spent in 600 before Crono arrived, and about the amount of time
it takes for Crono and Lucca to find Marle and then rescue Leene, they
have enough time to find Leene and restore history before the time
change erases Marle's influence in 1000 AD. Once the timeline is
restored, the paradox is no longer a threat, which means neither Crono
nor Lucca will disappear, and which means Marle should reappear, just
as she did in Trigger.
The idea of Crono, Marle, and Lucca lasting for an unspecified amount
of time and then disappearing, as opposed to disappearing
instantaneously, is my idea of temporal inertia. They effectively
resist the change in their temporal momentum, but they ultimately can't
resist the change.
I'll refute this in due time. Compendium members, if you have anything to add to the refution, please include it. Although I haven't read his words yet, I'd much rather like to disprove his standpoint entirely that permit it to become a theory. In their efforts to explain the Marle paradox, many seek to add on time principles which aren't seen thereafter in the games.
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*shrugs* Or we could continue it here, it's up to you. I have a little bit to add onto what I already posted, but not much.
As noted earlier, Marle's disappearing is the key that tells us that the grandfather paradox is in full effect in the game. We could either brush it aside, and realize (most accurately) that the game was only meant to be a light-hearted adventure about time travel, that didn't always make exact scientific sense, or we can attempt to come up with possibilities that would allow the game to still function under the wings of validity. I believe that jason79's temporal inertia theory is the easiest way to answer the Marle problem. It is also possible that once Crono enters 600AD, he cannot be affected by the events that happen in the timeline until they reach their full effect - in other words, he doesn't cease to exist because of the chain-effect until the year 600 he's currently in reaches 1000AD, and then we have a temporal paradox if he isn't able to save Leene. However, since Marle disappears, this is not only unlikely, but nearly impossible.
However, if we go along with the temporal inertia theory, we realize that Marle, having been in 600AD longer,and being the direct recepient of the problems of the newly created time paradox, will disappear first. The key paragraph to his theory is this:
"The answer is temporal inertia. Remember that Marle arrived before Crono, who arrived before Lucca. Also, remember that Marle was born in approximately 984 AD, while Crono and Lucca only recently were affected by her presence. This means that, when Marle accidentally changes history, she will be affected by the time change sooner than Crono and Lucca. "
So had more time passed, Crono and Lucca would've eventually disappeared, as theorized in these 2 paragraphs:
"If we were to witness Marle's departure from 1000, after however long it took for the soldiers to find her and call off their search, we would see an instantaneous change in 1000, because as far as 1000 is concerned, 600 is done and gone. But from 600's point of view, the time change is yet to occur. Because Crono, Marle, and Lucca are in the past, they are not affected by the time change right away. But as I said above, they will be affected, and Marle is affected first, because
she is directly related to Leene.
Imagine the time change as a linear event, passing through the four centuries between 600 and 1000. We would see it reaching Marle's birth before it reached the moment her pendant influenced the Telepods. This explains why Crono and Lucca didn't disappear right when Marle did. Of course, if we waited around long enough, we'd see Crono disappear too,
and a moment later Lucca. "
While this is never used anywhere else in the game, I believe it has no need to be. No other point in the game uses the grandfather paradox, and in almost every case (aside from sidequests), the timeline is maintained almost perfectly, with the only exception being that Crono and co are now known to a few individuals of each time period.
Just my thoughts. Feel free to reply here or there. I must say, nice boards, here. Outside of GameFAQs, with the old members like One That Was and BubbleBobby2000, I've never seen any board that took the Chrono series's story beyond the classic "if Crono defeats Lavos, then the past him travels to 2300 AD, they won't see Lavos destroying the planet because it doesn't happen, so this game doesn't make sense" debate. Refreshing, to say the least. I may end up spending a lot of time here, so long as I am welcome.
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As for the entity detaining Marle (I'm replying to these as I read your post, desu yo):
I believe this is possible, but unlikely. Keep in mind that we have no clue as to what the Entity actually is - some believe it to be the planet, some "God", in some sense of the word. The problem with believing the Entity has the power to detain Marle in time is that it raises questions of what power the Entity has. If the Entity has enough power to manipulate time, why can it not just write Lavos out of the timeline? Or "detain" Lavos in time indefinitely as it did with Marle. I believe this casts doubt upon the theory that the Entity needs Crono and co to save it - the planet, the Entity probably isn't. I find it much more likely that either
1) The Entity was showing Crono and co the history of their planet, and giving them a chance to change it. It has been argued that Magus, especially, is a victim of his circumstances, so it seems possible that the Entity is giving him a second chance, among other things.
2) The Entity is "God", and will judge the human race based on Crono's actions, and how he chooses to manipulate time. I find this most unlikely, mainly because there is no evidence to support it, nor is it even hinted at in either the original Japanese or the modified American text.
Of course, we could just assume, as I mentioned earlier, that Square just wanted to do a time travel game. Light-hearted, saving the world. And in all honesty, that's probably closest to the truth. Yet we choose to cut the story up, and analyze every part of it by logic, something that we were probably not intended to do by the staff. That being said, we have to realize that some of the questions we ask may not have answers, because they were never intended to, and if we are going to theorize anyway, it might as well be a theory that we like. Games are fun because of interpretation. You can go as deep into the story as you want.
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While this is never used anywhere else in the game, I believe it has no need to be.
Well, that's kinda the point. In order to obtain anything even resembling the "truth" behind the Chrono Universe, we must do so based on the weight of evidence. The game shows that Chrono and Co. are unaffected by the changes to the timeline, except the one case: The Marle Paradox. As such, we can only determine that this is the way that the world works, and that the Marle Paradox was a freak occurance.
EDIT:
Zeality, JustinS1985, and myself were having a discussion, and this thread popped up. Here's the text:
JustinS1985: I've got a question bout the marle paradox
JustinS1985: why would she dissapear before the queen was killed?
JustinS1985: shouldn't she only dissapear after her ancestor was killed if the grandfather paradox was being applied
Aitrus Colso: Because she was never found, and if Marle hadn't dissapeared, then the Queen would've most certainly died
xJPGIIx: Oh, this is more evidence for the Entity detaining theory
xJPGIIx: It's true that Leene is not yet dead...
xJPGIIx: The future is unwritten, and not predetermined.
Aitrus Colso: However, that begs the question of why Marle didn't disappear as soon as she was discovered in the mountains
JustinS1985: yeah
xJPGIIx: If Marle disappeared, it would mean that Leene is predetermined to die, and that the future is already written. Unfounded.
xJPGIIx: Thus, Entity seems even more logical
JustinS1985: the timing of her dissapearance was waaay too conveninet
Aitrus Colso: Exactly
Aitrus Colso: Since it couldn't have been a law of nature that would take her out at that time, then it must be some outside influence
If anything about the Grandfather Paradox is true, Marle would have dissappeared upon discovery, not when Crono sees her. If you say that the "temporal inertia" theory is true, then it would be sheer coincidence that Crono was present then. However, the odds of such a coincidence are so astronomical as to be impossible. The Entity could cause the dissappearance whenever and wherever it chose, allowing for the "coincidence" to be nothing of the kind. And in all honesty, that is probably the best resolution of the paradox we'll ever find.
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JustinS1985: I've got a question bout the marle paradox
JustinS1985: why would she dissapear before the queen was killed?
JustinS1985: shouldn't she only dissapear after her ancestor was killed if the grandfather paradox was being applied
Aitrus Colso: Because she was never found, and if Marle hadn't dissapeared, then the Queen would've most certainly died
xJPGIIx: Oh, this is more evidence for the Entity detaining theory
xJPGIIx: It's true that Leene is not yet dead...
xJPGIIx: The future is unwritten, and not predetermined.
Aitrus Colso: However, that begs the question of why Marle didn't disappear as soon as she was discovered in the mountains
JustinS1985: yeah
xJPGIIx: If Marle disappeared, it would mean that Leene is predetermined to die, and that the future is already written. Unfounded.
xJPGIIx: Thus, Entity seems even more logical
JustinS1985: the timing of her dissapearance was waaay too conveninet
Aitrus Colso: Exactly
Aitrus Colso: Since it couldn't have been a law of nature that would take her out at that time, then it must be some outside influence
If anything about the Grandfather Paradox is true, Marle would have dissappeared upon discovery, not when Crono sees her. If you say that the "temporal inertia" theory is true, then it would be sheer coincidence that Crono was present then. However, the odds of such a coincidence are so astronomical as to be impossible. The Entity could cause the dissappearance whenever and wherever it chose, allowing for the "coincidence" to be nothing of the kind. And in all honesty, that is probably the best resolution of the paradox we'll ever find.
Even though I agree with Igloo Bob that some things shouldn't be stretched as far as possible just to have an answer, this is the only one that makes true sense. If temporal inertia is present, then judging by the fact that it seems Marle disappeared early in the day after she arrived in 600 A.D., would not Robo have logically disappeared or at least been drastically altered to look more like Prometheus before the ending of the game, since it is unlikely that the heroes would have been energetic enough to celebrate at the Millenial Fair the day after they used all their might to destroy Lavos? I mean, think about it: Marle disappeared sometime from mid-day to early afternoon. Crono follows her, arrives in Guardia Castle, and then spends the night in the knight's quarters as suggested after such a long travel and his fights in the forest. Marle then disappears early the next morning, in less than 24 hours. The crew fight Lavos at any time of day, essentially - we also do not know how long the fight takes (it could very well be a long and difficult struggle, moreso than the time it takes to play through it in the game). Be it morning, afternoon, or night, it doesn't matter. They rest for a minimum of one night, and then the next night, either just about or more than 24 hours later, Robo is the same at the Millenial Fair. Not to mention, Doan hasn't changed. While they don't necessarily have to rest after fighting Lavos, it's still unlikely that they would have gone straight to the Fair. And while Crono doesn't have to rest before seeing Marle, if he does, the time temporal inertia delays before kicking in is even shorter, making even more questions as to why Robo was the same! This isn't exact proof, but it sure creates a good argument (in my opinion) against temporal inertia. That and the "coincidence" bit, as if you believe the Entity had any role in the game, then coincidence almost doesn't exist, make temporal inertia a no-go. The only answer is divine intervention, and it wouldn't be the first or last time we see it.
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Perhaps a stupid idea.... but what if we combined the two theories? Temporal inertia controlled by the Entity. Assuming the Entity exists in another spacial dimension, we don't know the kinds of powers (or limit of said powers) it has in the world. (This would also solve the problem of the Entity not interfering to detain Lavos, besides the ones already mentioned)
Not only that, SOME sort of interference had to have been used. If Marle had disappeared the second someone saw her, the search would have been called off--and Marle would have instantly disappeared. The search team would continue and find Marle, and call off the search.... The loop had to have been delayed, else it would have simply spun around endlessly.
But note that this interference ties in directly to the existance of the person. Perhaps memories are more resistant to tampering, since they shape existance itself...
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Thinking more about the situation I don't even believe that Marle was removed by time at all. More likely the entity moved her to another time/place/dimension. When Marle reappears she says that she was someplace cold, dark, and lonely. If she had been removed from time it's very unlikely she would retain any memory of it at all.
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or you can apply the lechatellier law to time. this law is applied for chemical equilibirum. if you try to change a parameter, the equilibrium tend to do the opposite to avoid this. i think it can be use for the time. with marle in 600 AD queen Leene die. so something (maybe the entity tend to couter this) that why crono is still there. that can explain the creation of the TD instead of lavos. (the point here is : if it's the entity it look like she wrote rules that can't be changed?). i don't remenber exactly the story between dino/chronopolis but that could be done with that too. (In fact my best exemple for this is not a CC/CT exemple but the intro of red alert where Einstein avoid the WWII just to create another one more deadly)
And about the inertia : if the first change (queen leene die) make an inertia effect on time, the 2nd one (queen leene rescue) make a second inertia effect that follow the first. assuming the 2 effect travel through timeline at the same speed, crono and lucca must disapear during a brief period equal to the time spend to realter the 600Ad timeline from queen death to queen rescue.
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Questions raised:
1. Why does Marle disappear when Leene isn't found?
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1. Marle's disappearance
Inquiry
When Marle and Crono go back in time, the search for Queen Leene is called off. However, Marle soon disappears; Lucca explains that she phased out since her mother was never found and could not give birth to her other ancestors as a result. This poses a problem in that the Chrono Series does not acknowledge the grandfather paradox, instead falling in line with the Time Traveler's Immunity theory. As Crono and his crew travel through time, they retain memory of their actions in history, even if they influenced events so that certain people they met never existed or were significantly changed. The clincher is that they defeated Lavos, yet retain memory of the Day of Lavos recording and the ruined future. However, Marle's disappearance is explained directly as a result of the Grandfather Paradox; she also disappears on a matter of possibility, as her mother was not even dead at the time of her evanescence. Interestingly enough, she was also alive during the entire ordeal, retaining memory of a cold, dark place. Why does she disappear? If her influence had been totally nullified, why would Crono and Lucca even remember her? Does this event contradict everything else laid down on the subject in the Chrono series?
Theories
Entity Activation
drumguy074, GrayLensman
The Entity's active role in bringing about Lavos's defeat is indisputable; it created the Gates to usher Crono along to squash the alien parasite. Perhaps the Entity, as it might have set up the conditions for the Telepod Gate to open, also phased Marle out (sending her possibly to the Darkness Beyond Time) to motivate Crono to save Leene to avoid historical abberation and also get him started on his quest. The fact that Marle is alive during the entire ordeal lends credence to this theory; she was not removed from existence by time, but seemed to be grabbed and shifted somewhere by an external force. Additionally, while some think the Entity's controlling the affair is a cop-out, akin to saying "a wizard did it," the Entity's role in the game is already well established as being direct and active, as it created the Gates and also presumably created the Red Gate for Lucca to utilize in helping her mother. Lucca's description of Marle's disappearance in this case was merely an assumption.
According to Lucca's explanation, the series of events caused by Marle's arrival in 600 AD would end the Guardia royal line and change history so that Marle was never born. This was not the case because Marle did not cease to exist for all time; she just vanished in front of Crono. Her past existence in 600 AD was not undone because the people in Guardia still thought that Queen Leene had been rescued. Thus, the effects of Marle's time traveling still remain. After Crono and Lucca rescued Queen Leene, Marle reappeared, as opposed to never having disappeared in the first place. I don't think this is an example of the grandfather paradox. The paradox is a logical impossibility that cannot actually happen. A solution to the paradox has to be made. In Chrono Trigger, the paradox is solved by giving time travelers immunity to changes to their pasts. Crono, Lucca and Marle would be unaffected by any changes they made to their pasts in 600 AD. The only purpose for Marle's disappearance was to preserve the Guardia royal line, which is very important. The supervisor and Doan had to exist so that the heroes could view the Day of Lavos record. Some agency made Marle disappear for this sole purpose, most likely the entity influencing history so that Lavos could be defeated.
Developer Oversight
ZeaLitY
Masato Kato was not completely in control of the overarching plot of Chrono Trigger; the only part of the game purely designed by him was 12000 B.C. If we consider that different people had conflicting ideas about time travel, and that this problem comes early in the game, it is possible that this idea was raised in the early stages of development or was proposed by an executive without extensive knowledge of Chrono series mechanics, which would not have been available at the time. As the plot progressed, time traveler's immunity situations arose and garnered evidence as the grandfather paradox was disproven; regardless, this important plot point could not be removed, and was left in the game unchallenged for release.
Misconceptions
It has been raised that perhaps Marle's lack of the pendant resulted in her not being shielded from changing time. The pendant does not grant immunity to time travelers, however. Lucca didn't have the Pendant when she traveled back to 600 AD to find Crono, but she still remembered Marle's existence. After Magus summoned Lavos in 600 AD, a massive Gate was formed. Magus was sent to 12,000 BC, while Crono, Frog and whomever were sent to 65 million BC. Marle's pendant, which was in Crono's care, traveled with him to the prehistoric era. That left Magus with scant protection, but he was still able to make drastic changes to his own past, even interacting with his past self, without any detrimental effects.
Temporal Intertia Theory
We all know what inertia is, right? It's the tendency of an object to
remain either at rest or in motion. But this is a little bit different
a notion. Current physics, relativity, and quantum mechanics have given
us a much better view of the universe itself, and have revealed a few
peculiar aspects of our universe.
We live in what's called a space-time continuum, three 'dimensions' of
space, one 'dimension' of time. I don't remember the exact details, and
I certainly don't want to try to get into them here, but there is
evidence that space and time are like two sides of the same coin. There
are certain aspects of space which have a corresponding temporal
equivalent, and vice versa. This gave me the idea that, if we have
spatial inertia, why not temporal inertia? With that question in mind,
let's re-examine the sequence of events I fondly call 'The Marle
Paradox.'
1000AD: Crono meets Marle. Marle has pendant. Pendant messes with
Telepods, opens a Time Gate, and Marle lands in 600 AD.
Let's follow her for a moment. Sometime after she arrives, Guardia
soldiers find her, mistake her for the missing Queen Leene, call off
their search for the queen, and take Marle back to the Castle. This is
the catalyst for the paradox, because the moment the soldiers find
Marle and call off the search, history has been changed. We can easily
conjecture the outcome: Leene is not found, Leene dies before bearing
children, thus no descendants, and thus no ancestors for Marle.
Thus no Marle. Uh oh. Which now means Crono doesn't meet her, her
pendant doesn't interfere with the Telepods, Marle doesn't travel back
in time (since she no longer exists at this point), the search for
Leene is then not called off, and we're back to the original history in
which Leene is found and eventually bears children. This is an infinity
loop; because of its very nature, this sequence will oscillate back and
forth between past and present forever. Not good.
Fortunately, this is not how things worked out. We know from playing
the game that Crono and Lucca work to restore the original history, and
they are successful.
The problem, though, is the logic here. All three of the children
landed in 600 AD as a direct result of Marle's pendant. Keep in mind
that had the pendant not been involved, none of them would have ever
seen 600 AD. But when history is suddenly changed, only Marle is
affected.
Some people have argued that this is because only Marle was a
descendant of Leene. This is logically unsound. We're dealing with time
travel here, not genetics, and until we have evidence to the contrary,
logic is the only way to approach this.
That in mind, logic dictates that not only should Marle disappear from
600 AD, but so should Crono and Lucca! Yet they don't. Why not? It's
because of Marle that they're there in the first place. If she's no
longer born in the future, then the pendant would never have been
brought near the Telepods, and the Gate would never have formed.
Obviously, Crono and Lucca don't disappear. So, working from the
assumption that this is a valid story, there has to be some explanation
for why they didn't disappear.
The answer is temporal inertia. Remember that Marle arrived before
Crono, who arrived before Lucca. Also, remember that Marle was born in
approximately 984 AD, while Crono and Lucca only recently were affected
by her presence. This means that, when Marle accidentally changes
history, she will be affected by the time change sooner than Crono and
Lucca.
My theory is that Crono and Lucca would have disappeared, but they
restored history before that happened. Temporal inertia explains how
they were able to remain in 600 AD long enough to correct the timeline.
If we were to witness Marle's departure from 1000, after however long
it took for the soldiers to find her and call off their search, we
would see an instantaneous change in 1000, because as far as 1000 is
concerned, 600 is done and gone. But from 600's point of view, the time
change is yet to occur. Because Crono, Marle, and Lucca are in the
past, they are not affected by the time change right away. But as I
said above, they will be affected, and Marle is affected first, because
she is directly related to Leene.
Imagine the time change as a linear event, passing through the four
centuries between 600 and 1000. We would see it reaching Marle's birth
before it reached the moment her pendant influenced the Telepods. This
explains why Crono and Lucca didn't disappear right when Marle did. Of
course, if we waited around long enough, we'd see Crono disappear too,
and a moment later Lucca.
However, while the time change is changing history, Crono and Lucca
have however long it takes for the change to travel from Marle's birth
to when she met Crono to restore history. Otherwise, they'll get stuck
in an infinity loop. If we're vague enough about the amount of time
Marle spent in 600 before Crono arrived, and about the amount of time
it takes for Crono and Lucca to find Marle and then rescue Leene, they
have enough time to find Leene and restore history before the time
change erases Marle's influence in 1000 AD. Once the timeline is
restored, the paradox is no longer a threat, which means neither Crono
nor Lucca will disappear, and which means Marle should reappear, just
as she did in Trigger.
The idea of Crono, Marle, and Lucca lasting for an unspecified amount
of time and then disappearing, as opposed to disappearing
instantaneously, is my idea of temporal inertia. They effectively
resist the change in their temporal momentum, but they ultimately can't
resist the change.
Refutation Discussion
GrayLensman
In Chrono Trigger, any change to the past results in a new timeline being created instantaneously. Your theory suggests that once a change is made to the past, the future timeline will gradually change to accommodate that change, but this is just not the case. In 1000 AD, the Mayor of Porre is greedy and obnoxious. By giving his ancestor the jerky in 600 AD, a new timeline is created where he is generous. When the travelers return to 1000 AD, the Mayor doesn't gradually become nicer. The new timeline instantly expressed itself the moment Crono made the change in 600 AD: the Mayor was always generous.
In 600 AD, Robo chose to stay in the past to help Fiona replant the forest. When the travelers warp to 1000 AD, the forest does not slowly appear. This is an even better example because the forest is not replenished in 600 AD, but years afterwards. The new timeline, containing the changes made by the travelers in 600 AD, and Robo over four hundred years, already exists in 1000 AD. The list goes on and on. Every instance of time travel in the Chrono series behaves in this way.
IglooBob
Hm, I'm not certain, but I believe you misunderstand the temportal inertia theory. Temporal inertia does not state that the entire timeline changes slowly, as you suggested, but rather, in situations relating to the grandfather paradox (i.e. anything that you do in the past that causes you to be unable to either exist/travel back in time at the point you do later in history), we don't see the changes affected in that particular time zone instantly. The best example is what jason79 used when he wrote the theory, the Marle situation at the beginning of the game. When Marle goes back into the past and prevents her ancestor from being saved, she disappears as a result of that, which means we absolutely know that the grandfather paradox is in effect. According to traditional theory on this situation, we know that either (1) time will either go into an infinite loop or collapse from the stress of the paradox, or (2) a new dimension will split off from the original, so we in effect have two dimensions, one where Marle exists, the other where she doesn't.
However, we know that neither is the case. Obviously, time did not loop or collapse, and if the changes created by Marle were instantaneous and created a new dimension, we now have issues, as we have to assume that every change in the past, which directly conflicts with what Belthasar later says about dimensional split in Cross (that to split the dimensions actually has nothing to do with changes in the past, but rather is only effected by change by an outside entity. In Cross's case, it is Schala's interference that gives Serge a 50/50 chance of life and death, and splits the dimension).
So operating from the assumption that Trigger is logically valid, we have to find a reason why time does not go into a temporal loop. The easiest solution is temporal inertia. Notice that when Crono goes back to 600AD, he comes after Marle does but before the search for the Queen has time to affect it's course that eventually leads to the temporal loop. This tells us that the portals are "aging" for lack of a better word, and that each portal is not linked to an exact time, but rather starts at a certain time, and continues through time aftewards. This is proved undoubtedly by the fact that once the kindgom of zeal is destroyed, Crono can never go back to the point before it was destroyed. Every time you visit the dark ages after that, you are taken to post-destruction dark ages.
So while Lucca and Crono are trying to figure out what's going on, Marle is being found by the soldiers, and the search for Leene is called off. Crono warps back, and finds Marle, and then she disappears. The reason Marle disappears while Crono does not is because she is directly related to the events, while Crono and Lucca are only indirectly related. In other words, imagine time as a straight line, with us having an omniscient view. We see Leene have a daughter, then the daughter have a daughter, and onward similarly, until Marle is born. Then 16 years later (that -is- how old she is, correct? In any case, it's just a minor detail, and doesn't substantially affect the theory), we see her meet Crono. The only logical assumption we can make is that the time change is not instantaneous, or Crono would never be able to go to 600AD at all! So when Marle disappears, but Crono does not, we know that the time change affects her sooner, because she is more closely related to the changes. Whatever speed the changes are made at, we know that 380-some years-worth of changes have already been affected in the timeline, and that after the final 17 years before Marle would meet Crono have passed in changes, we will be stuck in the time loop.
However, this does not happen. Crono manages to save Leene before his time is up, and so he does not disappear. This sets everything in the timeline back correctly, and Marle is restored. Even at this point, we are given more proof that the changes in time are not made instantaneously, as Marle is not waiting for Crono and Lucca upstairs, but actually reappears around the same time Crono comes up the stairs. Had the time change been instantaneous, she would've re-appeared as soon as Crono defeated Yakra.
So while Crono does not disappear and a time crisis is averted, we know that eventually, had he not saved the Queen in time, he would've disappeared as well. However long it takes for the final 16 years of changes to affect the past is how long Crono has. He is able to resist change longer than Marle, but ultimately, neither he nor Lucca is immune to the time change.
GrayLensman
The temporal inertia theory requires that changes to the timeline only appear after some interval of time. Slowly and not-instantly have the same meaning in this context.
Furthermore, the grandfather paradox, if it applied, does not only pertain to time travelers eliminating their own existence or their ability to time travel in the first place. If, for example, Crono were to warp 400 years back in time to 600 AD, his very presence affects all things within his future light cone from that space-time coordinate onwards. Even if Crono only appeared in 600 AD for a nanosecond, the gravitational force of his mass would have disturbed every subatomic particle in an area of space 400 light-years in radius by the time of his return.
It doesn't matter whether the new Crono, influenced by these wide-ranging changes to the past, will still travel through time as before. The new Crono is not the same person as the original. Even if the only difference is the energy level of one of his electrons, the grandfather paradox comes into effect. The original Crono no longer exists, and could not have made the original change to 600 AD.
The events of Chrono Trigger and Cross require that changes to the past creates a new, distinct timeline, and that time travelers are shielded to changes to their own pasts. The grandfather paradox isn't a consequence of irresponsible time travel. It is a rule which would make every instance of time travel in the series impossible. If the grandfather paradox applied, the laws of physics would have to prevent time travel of any sort (except perhaps outside the originators past light cone).
You cite the example of Marle's disappearance, because this theory was specifically tailored to explain that event, but temporal inertia cannot be applied to any other instance of time travel in the series.
We know that changes to the past result in a new timeline, but the original is sent into the Darkness Beyond Time. In Serge's case, special circumstances resulted in both timelines being preserved as separate dimensions. If the creators intended Marle's disappearance to be an example of the grandfather paradox, it contradicts everything else in the series.
This explanation contradicts every other event in the games. When the Porre Mayor's ancestor is given the jerky, he is instantly changed. There is no waiting period. If the grandfather paradox applies to the Chrono universe, Magus' escapades in Zeal as the Prophet become impossible, as well as every other instance of time travel.
I challenge you to, while maintaining that the grandfather paradox exists, explain any other event in Trigger or Cross with the temporal inertia theory.
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I think that I can agree with this temporal inertia. When people talk about things changing instantly in the crono universe, they forget one thing. With Marle disappearing in 600 AD rather slowly, it has to be the grandfather paradox. I think it is in effect the whole game. See the key is that it only happens to the time traveler. I'll give an example.....
Marle dissapears because of the search being called off in 600ad. Don't forget she traveled back in time so it would take some time to catch up with her. Now people are going to bring up the mayor and how you go back in time and give jerky to his ancestors to make him nice. It happened instantly when yuo go back to 1000ad. Well not exactly. It seems that way because he was within the flow of time. Now think of it this way, if you had the Mayor in your party when you give jerky to his ancestor, I bet that he wouldn't become all nice instantlyly because he's traveling through time, it has to catch up with him. So u can't use the Fiona's forest logic because the forest didn't go back in time. So anything outside the flow of time will be affected instantly. Thats what I think.
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ive always had something of a "buffer" theory which allows for the being to exibit the effects of existance removal before truely being removed, for the purpose of not instantly eraseing all changes the being has been making...
---event one: marle's dissappearence; here we obvously see the effects of time travel causing the being's existance to be called into question if the grand father paradox remains true then at the end marle must exist(she is the reason crono and herself went back in time)
if the existance can not be throwen into question by the paradox then there must be some explination for this event. i present to the forum my buffer theory. prehaps marle's dissappearence is only the first stage of her existance being called into question. allowing the beings in the present time as well as fellow travelers to alter events to the point that the existance is no longer in question(in this case marle taking the place of her mother before she is born) we know that the true queen is still alive and we know that if marle's existance is in question the queen at the present chances will die if something is not done. heres where the buffer theory is fleshed out: if the queen dies during your stay in 600AD "true-time"(by defination: the passage from one event to the another) would "snap back agenst itself" resualting in the only foreseeable way to prevent the paradox eraseing the recent events causing a "rewind" to the nearest event that dosnt throw marle's existance into question
in CT the characters are not trying to effect their past but their future. if time flows with the character correctly this would be the case with the paradox right? surely we are all agreeing that the grandfather paradox prevents beings from altering their past. but is it applied to the future as well? i can lern that my friend will be coming back to town next week, i am able to effect the future without time travel, would i not be able to effect it just the same with time travel? i mean i havent lived the future yet so wouldnt a day in the past just be like a day in the present to me?
the only instance that we can even assume an attempt to change the past to effect the "present" is magus's present... magus, through the desguise of a prohet, could have tried to change the events to allow zeal to "live on" but the grandfather paradox in the end still applies causing zeal to fall
comments?
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Gray's right, the temporal inertia is just as anti-Chrono as the grandfather paradox. Just look at all the other events, it just...doesn't fit right. It cancels out TTI, and TTI frankly works.
Frankly, I agree with either the Entity theory, or the developers fucked-up theory. More the Entity theory, though.
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Well, I'm not really into TTI. I still don't get it. Those explinations are like "WTF". Quite Frankily, it just seems like a way to protect everything else from the Marle situation. What I also don't get is why people can't let the Marle situation go. It's just the simple fact that no body elses grandparents were at the risk of dying because of time travel interferance.
And then there's TB. And I don't understand that either, if it's really nessesary if time is always rewritten. Instead of just one person being sent to the DBT, we know that the whole timeline is. So if a person goes into the future, they're stepping into a new timeline where they never were anyway, which would save them I guess.
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Had this been any ordinary grandparent maybe I would agree, but the odds are highly against noone else being effected. The permanent removal of Queen Leene would have some sort of ramifications for the kingdom. Their morale would have gone down, they would live their lives in fear, the mystics may have even won.
We really don't know what happened exactly had Leene never been found. In the unaltered version of the timeline, probably a group of soldiers had aided Glenn in his hunt, but when it was altered Glenn would have to face the chapel on his own, had it not been the decision of Lucca and Crono. Frankly I don't think Glenn could have single handedly take on the chapel.
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Seeing as everyone but you understands it, as you yourself stated Zaper, I don't think you can say it doesn't work if you don't know HOW it works. -_-
ALSO, since the Entity theory is the only theory that actually works in the internal logic of the story, I'm sticking with that one. >_>
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it appears that my buffer theory has been steam rolled again without any reasoning as to how it dosn't work
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This is just an idea but it's been stewing around for a little while now.
I think most of the problem with this specific paradox isn't necessarily the traditional grandfather paradox. I think it's got something to do with the fact that Marle replaces her ancestor.
It might not be that her direct ancestor has gone missing. Maybe it's because of what may have happened if Marle never left 600 AD.
I don't percieve her to be the type of girl who would play along as being the Queen when it came time to produce an heir.
Quite frankly it may be that no other alternate ancestor would have been able to continue the bloodline in such a way that Guardia could still rule.
The only other idea I have is very sketchy.
Marle disappearing was a temporary thing, whether we knew it or not.
It's likely she would have disappeared even if Crono had not shown up. The problem would still exist. But this is not a classical grandfather paradox.
Imagine:
Your queen has been missing. A search has been formed.
Your queen is found. Later she disappears again without a trace.
A new search begins.
Marle disappears in a delayed manner because of Temporal Inertia. She reappears later once the real queen is found, again at a delay.
I think Leene would have been found either way. Guardia is large. All the troops could not have been informed yet of the queen's return. This can be evidenced by Frog still searching when the party reaches the chapel.
Also people had noticed differences between Marle and Leene. Frog could very reasonably been able to tell that the two women are very different. Marle could have been found to be an imposter very easily. After that the search would be continued with renewed vigor.
But Temporal Inertia could explain the entire set of circumstances. It takes time to write Marle out and it takes time to write her back in.
*Edit* Typo corrections
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Imagine:
Your queen has been missing. A search has been formed.
Your queen is found. Later she disappears again without a trace.
A new search begins.
Ok...but why did she disappear? How?
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Imagine:
Your queen has been missing. A search has been formed.
Your queen is found. Later she disappears again without a trace.
A new search begins.
Ok...but why did she disappear? How?
i would point you to my earlier post hear like a page or two back where i talk about my buffer theroy
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it appears that my buffer theory has been steam rolled again without any reasoning as to how it dosn't work
Changes to the timeline are instant; it's the same reason Temporal Inertia doesn't really work. That, coupled with Time Traveler's Immunity, means Marle wouldn't be affected.
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I still think that its possible that changes in CT only are instant to the people(or things) inside that particular flow of time.
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Time-line changes might not necessarily be instantaneous, but there is no delay perceived by time travellers. Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to become generous. As soon as he can travel to 1000 AD, the change has already occurred. If Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to change, he shouldn't have to wait for Marle, himself or Lucca to be affected by time-line changes.
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Time-line changes might not necessarily be instantaneous, but there is no delay perceived by time travellers. Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to become generous. As soon as he can travel to 1000 AD, the change has already occurred. If Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to change, he shouldn't have to wait for Marle, himself or Lucca to be affected by time-line changes.
exactly, it it was instentanous all chrono would have to do is give em the jerky and and be able to reach in his pocket and find the moonstone
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It's a mistake almost every form of chronologically-phasing fiction makes. Marle wouldn't have dissappeared. This is a mistake on the developers' part.
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Time-line changes might not necessarily be instantaneous, but there is no delay perceived by time travellers. Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to become generous. As soon as he can travel to 1000 AD, the change has already occurred. If Crono doesn't have to wait for the Porre Elder to change, he shouldn't have to wait for Marle, himself or Lucca to be affected by time-line changes.
But thats where I think that people miss. Crono doesn't have to wait before the Porre Elder becomes generous because the Elder was not time traveling, crono was. Now if he was taken into the past with Crono when he gave the jerky to his ancestor, then You would see him gradually change in front of crono. The key I think is that you have to be outside the normal flow of time. Marle was outside the normal flow of time, she didn't belong in 600AD, therefore when the search was called off it took time for her to disappear because her 1000ad self was in the past. Does anybody understand what I'm trying to say?
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Yes, and it doesn't work. Time Travelers Immunity says that Time Travelers aren't effected by their own changes at all.
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But thats where I think that people miss. Crono doesn't have to wait before the Porre Elder becomes generous because the Elder was not time traveling, crono was. Now if he was taken into the past with Crono when he gave the jerky to his ancestor, then You would see him gradually change in front of crono. The key I think is that you have to be outside the normal flow of time. Marle was outside the normal flow of time, she didn't belong in 600AD, therefore when the search was called off it took time for her to disappear because her 1000ad self was in the past. Does anybody understand what I'm trying to say?
If the Porre Elder travelled to 600 AD, he would have time traveller immunity.
Did Magus gradually loose his memories or otherwise change in 12,000 AD? He was there for weeks or months, yet at North Cape he recalled the original events of the Ocean Palace disaster. The new version of Janus wasn't even there.
The extra elemental armours do not gradually disappear if they are removed from 1000 AD and 600 AD. That is even the same time-frame as Marle's disappearance.
If something is going to gradually change, what defines the intermediate states?
The existence of paradoxes, like Marle's disappearance, make time travel as seen in the series impossible. Even killing Lavos in 1999 AD, thus eliminating the Day of Lavos record from the future, would be a paradox. Only TTI adequately describes the majority of events in the series.